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Toilet Talk: Making Washrooms Work for Everyone
13 Plays23 days ago
Let’s talk about everyone’s favourite topic… toilets! 🚽
This week, Kai is joined by Marni Robinson, Senior Director of Social Impact at HCM Architecture. Over the years, Kai has had the chance to collaborate with Marni and the HCM Architecture team on a number of projects, so this episode is the perfect opportunity to lift the lid (pun intended!) on what it really takes to design facilities that work for everyone.
We wander into the tiled, echoey world of workplace washrooms - From the quiet stress of choosing which door to walk through, to the tiny design details that shape how safe and welcome we feel once we’re inside - this episode explores what it really means to create spaces that work for everyone, trans and non-binary people included.
Whether you’ve never given a second thought to public washrooms or you’re all too familiar with the calculations some of us make just to pee in peace, this conversation will leave you looking at bathrooms in a whole new way.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Gender in Focus' Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello folks, this is Gender in Focus, a podcast exploring how to create a more inclusive world for trans and non-binary people. I'm your host, Kai Scott, and I use the pronouns he and him.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm the president of Trans Focus Consulting.
Goals and Guest Introduction
00:00:18
Speaker
Each week, I dive into real stories and expert advice, offering practical tips and actionable takeaways to help you lead with kindness, confidence, and heart.
00:00:28
Speaker
Tune in to discover how you can make a positive difference. It's just a conversation
00:00:42
Speaker
In today's episode, we have a special guest, Marnie Robinson. She is the Senior Director of Social Impact at HCM Architecture. I've had the pleasure of collaborating with Marnie and others at HCMA on several projects over the years.
Acknowledgment of Inclusive Efforts
00:00:57
Speaker
I really want to express my gratitude to Marnie and the crew ah You all do so much work at the back end that I see and witness in terms of balancing, encouraging, and educating clients to help them see the need for more inclusive options, ah whether for gender diversity, disability, or really any other marginalized communities. And so I can really sense that you all really care. And I just really deeply appreciative of all the work that you do.
00:01:27
Speaker
It really means a lot.
Complexities in Washroom Design
00:01:28
Speaker
So, In today's conversation, we're going to talk about the wonderful world of washrooms, how they're designed, what the issues are. And when I first started working on the issues of gender diversity, I had no idea how deep I would go on the issues of washrooms in terms of their design and whatnot. So ah for something so seemingly simple, there are many complex considerations.
00:01:52
Speaker
And we're going to dive into the nuances of washrooms with Marnie here today. So I'm really excited to jump in and I just wanted to say good afternoon, Marnie. How are you doing? Please introduce yourself.
00:02:03
Speaker
Hi, Kai. Thanks so much for that intro. And just before I say anything else about myself, right back at you with the our collaborations over time. It's fantastic. We've learned so much from im working with you and we're always Always delighted to learn more every time we do that together. Every time we collaborate, our team gets to learn a bit more from from you and your team. So thank you. we're We're also delighted to have shared this work with you.
00:02:28
Speaker
Thank you so much. so So about me, my background is in communications and engagement and public health. um i have long been an advocate for healthy, sustainable communities that include people.
00:02:43
Speaker
And the importance is he noted that things that we sometimes think are simple, are actually really complicated and complicated by design. And there are so many elements of design that exclude if we don't think about them. So in order to be inclusive in our design, we actually need to be conscious about that.
00:02:59
Speaker
um And my background in engagement, I think is really important in that about asking people, speaking with people, listening to people about what it is they need and trying to reflect that as much as possible as we can.
00:03:09
Speaker
we can't We can't always accommodate everybody's needs exactly um because they're sometimes conflicting. um but the The act of including people in the design process is something that is so empowering and such a big part of the work we do.
00:03:24
Speaker
And that's for me what excites me about working on this. And you know like you, I never thought I'd
Societal Values in Design
00:03:30
Speaker
spend so much time talking about washrooms. They are such an important point. It's the place where so many things meet about human rights and about your feelings of yourself, safety, privacy, all these issues that are so important to us as people.
00:03:45
Speaker
And I think that you know though the washroom designs themselves are really um a reflection of how we we value people in our society. And I'm honored to be able to be part of that.
00:03:58
Speaker
So well put in terms of it really kind of boils down to dignity in in a sense, right? at a just yeah We have to relieve ourselves somewhere. And you know the the way that that's set up can either facilitate that or it can make it more difficult depending on the circumstances. so Yeah, really exciting to hear a bit more about your background and and really what drives you and makes you passionate about washrooms, which seems like a kind of a surprising thing ah for many, but very important.
Barriers and Challenges in Design
00:04:28
Speaker
And as you know, there's kind of a lot of different types of washrooms. Of course, the most common of them is the are are the women's and men's washrooms with multiple stalls. And of course, that doesn't quite work for everyone. And so
00:04:43
Speaker
there are more expansive and inclusive options and and we'll be sure to explore some of those aspects. and Especially we find that a lot of clients struggle to figure out kind of which options make the most sense for their buildings, their circumstances, their and stakeholders. It's just really valuable to set aside this time for us to talk about those different dimensions. and so kind of With all that in mind, i'm really curious to hear from you, what you hear is the most common challenge that you know folks face when designing a washroom or even a change room to meet the needs of trans and non-binary users?
00:05:24
Speaker
I think it starts with the fact that people are really not super comfortable talking about gender in general. I think it's ah and not a topic that I think most people think about um as a building operator.
00:05:36
Speaker
ah you know They're probably thinking that washrooms are not an important space. Certainly, that traditionally been the thing, take the washrooms, tuck them down at the end of a corridor, behind the elevator shaft, basically put them in a place where nobody else wants to go. It's not prime real estate.
00:05:50
Speaker
And i think you know after that, it's really just that you know meeting meeting what has been a traditional approach to that of gender-designated washrooms.
00:06:01
Speaker
and the And they're enshrined in things like building a code. So you know there's a lot of things that are stacked up to make us sort of follow that traditional path. And the fact that people aren't comfortable in that space, or you're talking about these issues, um and then the things that they do know about these ideas, maybe they feel a little bit scared.
00:06:17
Speaker
Will these washrooms be safe for people? you know this This idea that somehow um putting ah spaces beside one another especially you know in a context where people are thinking about a traditional washroom design with awful phenolic panels that have those gaps between and gaps at the bottom. So you actually see into those spaces, the idea of putting and people of different genders beside each other in those spaces is really too much for some people, I think.
00:06:45
Speaker
And you know that that's the starting point where we get from. So before you even want to talk about anything else, I think we're already, you've got people pretty entrenched in these ideas and with fear being a big motivator on on multiple fronts.
00:06:58
Speaker
And you know we wanna get them to think past that and start to think of washrooms in a different way and change the conversation to not be about fear
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, and it's ah kind of, there's a structural aspect to this in terms of like where to place things, how you know where does the toilet go and the what type of material for ah what envelops the toilet and whatnot, ah lighting and all these different pieces. But then there's a cultural aspect that you're pointing to where you know it's the way we've always done things that has a status quo.
00:07:32
Speaker
There's a bit of momentum behind that, maybe even a lot of momentum. and then there's the the fear of change or something different and people having a hard time whether it's facility users or whether it's clients anticipating what the facility users will say or do or ask about and not feeling confident to be able to respond to those questions those concerns and so it just really gives them pause and maybe even for some it's not worth exploring and so yeah i really appreciate what you're saying there there's
00:08:05
Speaker
just so much to it already. ah But that that cultural versus structural is a really interesting way that we found helps people understand you know what's what's
Key Design Elements
00:08:16
Speaker
at play, really. And a lot of it is cultural.
00:08:19
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And the structural is not nothing. I mean, that you know we're requiring people to think differently about these washroom spaces um because there are additional considerations that we think go with it. And you know I mentioned that you know traditional washrooms, gender designated washrooms, we think of men's and women's with those panels that provide privacy privacy to no one. I mean, those are those aren't spaces that really work for anyone.
00:08:41
Speaker
So you know the sooner we can move away from those, the better. and But in thinking about where to put washrooms, if you're thinking about putting them in a different space in the building, we're asking for more real estate and floor area to use for washrooms. So those are always competing. It's expensive to build.
00:08:55
Speaker
face you know especially in places like you know Vancouver, British Columbia, Ontario, places where the cost per square foot is really high. And we're asking for more space. So it does, it it it takes a different mindset to move past just the fact of you know building washrooms in the cheapest way possible in the sort of you know least desirable location and asking them to make these different trade-offs.
00:09:21
Speaker
and It also changes things about how they work operationally. you know People need to consider um Can they support the washroom features that they're designing for? um you know One of the things we've seen a lot is you know emergency call systems that are put in some washrooms.
00:09:36
Speaker
And we've learned, unfortunately, and that a lot of those don't actually do anything. They just ring in that location, don't ring anywhere else. they don't There's nobody actually at the other end of that button. ah So if you're calling for help, um that's not really a good setup. So you know can you support something operationally, thinking that through on a long term basis?
00:09:53
Speaker
And I think you know those those i those changes that we're asking of people and do require cultural, but also structural. There are, as you say, these are there's multiple questions that people have to consider, but they're all in the the end leading to a much better outcome for everyone.
Impact on Productivity and Health
00:10:10
Speaker
who Absolutely. So just kind of putting in the building blocks and and continue to to that trajectory towards a greater, more inclusive ah setup for folks.
00:10:21
Speaker
ah Yeah, does take, ah you know, caught finances to be able to support that, you know, to procedural aspects, if especially the call button. I mean, that's such an important thing that if somebody needs help, that it be responded to. But sometimes just having to, you know, piece together the different steps to make that possible.
00:10:42
Speaker
Like you have the infrastructure, infrastructure but then there's the the how do staff respond to that ah whatnot. So it's so true that there's so many different pieces to this puzzle that need to fit together.
00:10:56
Speaker
um But that it youre I agree with you, it is well worth it at the end, you know once that's been done, ah because then people are are more at ease. And if it's at the work in the workplace, they can then bring their best selves, you know be more productive.
00:11:11
Speaker
Or if it's in a community center, you know they can focus on connecting with other folks rather than scrambling ah to to get their washroom needs met, ah no matter who they are, right?
00:11:23
Speaker
um and what you're saying about privacy really rung a bell the kind of gaps between the doors and the ah frame uh that's such a persistent thing that comes up in any of the research and certainly engagements that we have done together and you know surveys we've conducted at trans focus ourselves and time to again no matter who you are you know trans not trans you know it's this is like why is this here And one time i was at a bank and somebody in the washroom had put toilet paper ah along the gap, right?
Effects on Children and Marginalized Groups
00:11:57
Speaker
Like a long piece of toilet paper to cover up. Right, creating their own privacy. Yeah.
00:12:01
Speaker
So i was like, hey, that's clever. you know Folks are taking things into their own hands if those aren't created for them, essentially. Yeah. And and just ah another ah like a specific example that comes to mind, this is this is both through engagement and through studies.
00:12:16
Speaker
and kids in schools when we don't provide suitable washroom spaces for them they don't actually use the they know that there are many we've heard this from we work with uh schools k-12 um not so much but this isnt doesn't apply post-secondary but and where young kids are so uncomfortable with washroom spaces that they do not use the toilet at all during an entire school day And likes that's tragic for it's tragic for anyone. But when you're a little kid and this is the environment you're in, what are we telling people about how they should be valued and you know to provide their basic needs to be able to use a toilet at school for their health?
00:12:56
Speaker
It's affecting their learning. It's going to affect everything about them, their health. So ah these are, you know as we've talked about so many times, essential services and the privacy is can be the difference between using a toilet or not.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good point that it really can be quite limiting in in that, you know, avoidance is a big theme and interesting to hear among the kids and not surprising, sadly, ah and but also comes up, you know, in trans and non-binary folks.
00:13:30
Speaker
I'm sure, although I haven't seen ah specific data ah with, you know, folks with disabilities, right? it's just, you know, no matter that the group that they're faced with these challenges,
00:13:41
Speaker
in a way that the way that they or have figured out how to navigate it is just avoid altogether. But you're right that there's a health consequence ah among so many others. ah your Urinary tract infections and whatnot, like it doesn't come without a cost.
00:13:56
Speaker
I think sometimes the cost can be invisible. ah If it's, you know, perhaps leadership, ah they're they don't have a ah direct view to what's happening on the ground. and can miss that in ways that there's like real tangible suffering ah because of these this lack of inclusivity or design features that can really help folks feel comfortable no matter the configuration of the washroom.
00:14:21
Speaker
So yeah, super important. So we've talked a bit about the existing facilities are the ones that people are most commonly ah familiar with. So women's and men's washrooms in terms of some of the balancing act between privacy, safety and inclusivity. And so there are things changing for that type of configuration as well, especially in newer designs, you have a lot more flexibility to be able to build that in from the outset ah so that it's not something that's kind of an afterthought.
00:14:55
Speaker
you know Of course, there's costs that's at play ah for for a lot of clients, but and so that is something that is changing because we've had other types of configurations that I think have kind of probably gently push things along for this the the the most common ah washroom configuration. So it's kind of a constellation of change that happens, which I think has benefit for so many different types of people, but really every everyone at the end of the day.
Trends and Privacy in Washroom Design
00:15:29
Speaker
Are there any other kind of design features for men's and women's washrooms that you've seen or that you've been involved with that you think are really important? Yeah, I touched one during our previous ah conversation there. and The big thing I think is the location.
00:15:46
Speaker
um You know, that's one of the things we recommend is the most important thing. And you have to decide at the beginning. You can't decide this later. This is, you know, you're at the beginning of designing new building. um You know, where are you going to put the toilets?
00:15:57
Speaker
And as I said previously, the the idea was, you know, down at the end of a quarter out of the way. And we're asking people to not put them in the most prominent locations. So, you know, we walk into a building, they're right there. And what that does um when we have to think about the um balance between you know privacy um and thinking this concern of safety, which is obviously one of the biggest fears people have, and is by putting them in this public location, we're creating visibility into the the wider space, but then shifting that privacy level, which everyone needs, you know when you're going to use the toilet, everyone wants privacy, ah to the actual stall door.
00:16:34
Speaker
And so that shift in where the privacy line is, i is a really important part of how we think that washroom design has changed and is changing. it's not changed everywhere, but, you know, people are starting to realize that. And I think one of the things that's really powerful about this getting over this fear of the unknown or this different is actually seeing washrooms that work.
00:16:53
Speaker
ah You might have this idea that there's these are these scary things where, you know, it's not going to feel private or safe and we can show examples. projects we've done, you know, we work primarily with with them with municipalities, but you show great examples of how these have been designed to be um private and safe at the same time, and using this concept of shifting where privacy, ah the line of privacy is.
00:17:18
Speaker
And, you know, that I think is one of the most important shifts that we've seen. and i think, you know, there there are some other strategies that can go along with it, but to me, that's that's the the fundamental shift in what we're what we're asking people to take on board when we think about washrooms in a different way.
00:17:39
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I've definitely seen that as well, where, you know, ah kind of privacy is about enclosure. Safety is about kind of openness and line of sight and being able to co co-create safety, if you will, with fa so fellow facility users or even staff being able to to jump in to help.
00:18:02
Speaker
ah And so by, like you mentioned, having privacy, having the fully enclosed washroom stall creates that um a greater sense of privacy rather than having all the gaps everywhere.
00:18:14
Speaker
um But then the entrance becomes of the washroom is not closed as it is in more traditional or previous designs. And it's more open and or at least that's how it's encouraged.
00:18:29
Speaker
Certainly and there's some complex considerations around do you have like no door, you know, maybe, a ah you know, various other options available, but certainly being able to look into the washroom can create that greater sense of safety.
00:18:43
Speaker
by having sight lines, being able to hear if somebody is in distress and needs help. ah So it is kind of flipping those though where you know the openness used to be in the stall is now at the entrance and vice versa for privacy.
00:18:57
Speaker
And so I think that's just ah such a really interesting shift in ways based on facility user feedback. We are getting that greater clarity in terms of what is actually useful.
00:19:10
Speaker
And once people experience it, they realize, oh yeah, this is way more comfortable, way more safe. I feel at ease, right? Yeah, yeah. And you know we hear that feedback from projects we've worked on and with our clients ah where you know that shift from like, I don't know what this is going to be like to once it's actually you know in place and working.
00:19:30
Speaker
um Just a totally different perception of how ah washroom can function for you and the gradients between um private, semi-private and totally open.
00:19:41
Speaker
um that we're just We're just blurring those lines for people in a way that they haven't experienced necessarily. But when when they do experience it, it's not 100%. I mean, for some people, the space doesn't work for them. they're you know That's okay. we We don't expect spaces to work for 100% of people.
00:19:56
Speaker
But the majority of people who use those spaces, find find it works for them in a way that is really gratifying as designers who aim to create spaces for you know as many people as possible to use.
00:20:09
Speaker
And to hear that this washing makes a difference to my ability to use the space, that's a real thing for us. Oh, that's so exciting. Next up, I wanted to talk a bit more about single unit washrooms. This is a very popular or increasingly popular um option that folks really are interested, that they need.
00:20:31
Speaker
Certainly we hear among trans and non-binary folks that, you know, there is a desire for single unit washrooms where especially if somebody is neither a man nor woman, the women's and men's facilities don't work for them.
00:20:43
Speaker
And so single unit options are this fully self-contained washroom just with a toilet and their own sink and their own space. But certainly, of course, this was originally designed for folks in accessibility devices, whether wheelchairs or mobility devices. And so I'm just curious to hear have some of your experiences around designing single unit washrooms and you know what you've heard about these spaces in terms of how they meet needs. And you know there's also sometimes some complexities around if there's not enough single unit washrooms, there's pressure or mounting pressure for you know that access to those facilities.
00:21:25
Speaker
We were having way more conversations about single-unit washrooms than we used to. And um it's interesting that, you know I would say even in the sort of few years I've been with HCMA for about seven years, and in in the time that I've been there, ah some at the beginning of conversations, some of our clients had never even experienced that washroom typology. It was sort of like a what?
00:21:46
Speaker
And then you had to encourage them to think about maybe, i think it might be a coffee shop you've been in or a restaurant where There are washrooms and toilets where there's no gender designation on the door and there's a sink inside and these smalls and people start to, oh, right. Okay. Okay. i get it and get it. Now starting to see those in public buildings as options.
00:22:04
Speaker
And we have feedback mostly that people want a range of choices that, you know, that what, like I said earlier, there are some people for whom all gender multi-stall washroom is never going to feel right for them.
00:22:17
Speaker
And people who want increased privacy for whatever reason, ah want their own space entirely and having a sink and grooming facilities inside a single unit washroom for some people is really that's what they need.
00:22:29
Speaker
and I think about I heard some feedback recently about a single unit washrooms that was probably is not something that I had considered so it's so as to say it's always great to listen to other people and and this is from someone who said that they didn't like single unit washrooms because if ah for some reason that washroom was a mess, the sink was a mess, or there was no soap or no paper towels.
00:22:55
Speaker
ah Basically, you're stuck in there then. So you've used the toilet and now you have nowhere to wash your hands. And so for that person, the idea that you have an all gender multi stall was perfect because great. I have a private toilet and now I can go wash my hands in a space where I can choose. There's multiple things for me to choose from and locations I can try to make sure I get what I'm looking for without having a dirty mess.
00:23:15
Speaker
So yeah again, listening to other people is important and knowing that for for most people, a range of choices is is really going to
Need for Diverse Washroom Options
00:23:23
Speaker
be the thing. But I think that in a well-maintained um and an environment where you have soap and and everything you need,
00:23:33
Speaker
then it's the closest thing we can get to what we would most of us experience at home. It's our own private washroom. You have everything you need in one place where you can close the door. So, you know, I think I'm glad to see that we're having more conversations with our clients about creating these washroom spaces and then giving people the range of choice that they need to find a washroom that meets their needs.
00:23:54
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, it's so important, the kind of choice among options. Oftentimes, many clients just think, oh, if it's just one type of washroom and you know call it a day, when in fact, there's such a diversity of needs that you know Some are interested in multi-stall, maybe they want to go with the folks they're with rather than by themselves, ah ah given that you usually single unit are smaller spaces, although some are accessible, so can accommodate mobility devices.
00:24:26
Speaker
but um And certainly the importance of maintenance is you know you can design a beautiful space, but if you don't have the the regular cleaning of it, that can really put a damper on what is you're trying to create this comfortable safe space for folks.
00:24:43
Speaker
I am curious, ah you know, we we'll get to signage later, but I just wanted to bring it in here at single unit washrooms. Oftentimes, especially in existing buildings, they can be labeled for just men or just women.
00:25:00
Speaker
you know So there's still kind of gender at play in these ah single unit spaces, even though they are fully private to oneself. And so don't know if you've, you know, kind of, you know, in your own experience with designing or helping clients understand, you know, that dimension of, you know, how something is designated when it comes to single unit washrooms.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yeah, we have lots of conversations. um We do a lot of work on essentially retrofits for um you know, institutions that already have ah buildings in place, um you know, it's obviously more complicated to try to retrofit a building to create inclusive and accessible washrooms than if you're starting from scratch.
00:25:41
Speaker
um But, you know, most of the buildings exist in the world today. So, you know, we have to find strategies for how to deal with the existing ones as well. And, you know, we encourage clients wherever possible to remove gender designated signage on single washrooms because there's no real reason for it.
00:25:57
Speaker
ah It's a little more complex when you're trying to transition what is a ah gender designated space into an all gender space. If you have traditional stalls, for example, um you know we we we really encourage following best practice on ah what we would consider for a new all gender multi stall, if you're going to actually do a renovation.
00:26:18
Speaker
um But for single unit washrooms, it's it is in most cases as easy as just changing the sign changing the signage on the door. And that creates just so many more options for people. So ah it's a it's a quick win. We love to see you know people take that up wherever they can because it it's um about as easy as it gets.
00:26:38
Speaker
Absolutely. It's in very true. Something that we also firmly support and and really it's ah because people don't may not realize, right, that if you gender them or designate them for a particular gender, ah you know, there there may not be then a space for, say, a non-binary person for whom ah gender-specific spaces don't work. and And even if they understand that it's, you know,
00:27:05
Speaker
that behind those doors is a single unit washroom, it's still like an extra mental barrier to be able to support them in the access. So if it's simple, like a hundred bucks or whatever, the science change, like why not, right?
00:27:19
Speaker
Well, was gonna say the funny thing is too, that you actually see it myself included, you know, if they're gender designated and someone's in the women's washroom ah and there's an empty single unit of the mass washroom, I still somehow feel like I shouldn't use it.
00:27:34
Speaker
I know it's no different. And I know that, you know, while well, well, but what if I go in and then when I come out, there's somebody there who thinks it's theirs and they should have it. It it creates mental overhead that's not necessary for anyone, really. You're actually just making it really inefficient and exclusionary. So, you know, let's let's make let's move those get rid of them.
00:27:55
Speaker
Absolutely. It's so true that the the inefficiency part, right? The inclusivity, obviously an important aspect, but you know why bottleneck? you know Or maybe not even necessarily bottleneck, but just create added layers the way that you're describing for for everyone.
00:28:12
Speaker
ah So just you know free up the single unit so that you can be- Free the single units. the new campaign everybody can get behind.
00:28:24
Speaker
oh, that's great. and Well, single units are definitely very important in most of the research that we do yeah among, what we survey ah trans folks and non-trans folks or cisgender folks.
00:28:39
Speaker
And even like about a quarter of cisgender folks that say that they're either you're already using or very interested in single unit. So I think that's, It's going to be an emerging um option if it's not already present in buildings.
00:28:54
Speaker
ah So the next option or type configuration is what we've referenced here and there a bit, is the kind of all gender washroom with multiple stalls.
00:29:06
Speaker
And as you're ah mentioning, this is a relatively new option that most people, if you know, especially in North America, have not had as much exposure to and can have a range of different feelings about this type of option, whether excitement for some, curiosity for others, and then concern or discomfort ah in the thinking about that space and even hesitant or refusing or don't want to access that space, which is perfectly valid.
00:29:38
Speaker
um I think, like you were saying, we need choice among options so that people can choose the facility that is right for them. But just curious if you could speak a little bit more to the some of the innovative approaches or strategies that have been applied to creating and designing all gender multi-stall washrooms.
00:29:56
Speaker
to increase comfort, but also to help with adoption ah from people who may have never gone into such a space, especially if they haven't been to Europe or other places where that is a little bit more common. Yeah, more common for sure. of Yeah, I mean, I mentioned before the you know location and visibility, which are sort of sort of the key fundamental things that you underpin at what we think makes a good all gender washroom. But there are some other things that also, I think, increase the the ah functionality and the comfort that people can have in those spaces. So one of the big ones is what we would call it like a flow through design.
00:30:31
Speaker
So a traditional gender designated washroom that we're familiar with would have one door that closes, opens and closes to the space. and And within that there are the private stalls and hand washing are also in there. And when we look at a flow through design, we're removing that door and because we're trying to you know get this increased visibility. But in order to really create and some feelings of safety and comfort,
00:30:52
Speaker
um We want two doors or two doorways essentially so that people can have multiple routes in and out of a space. And that's psychological safety created by the fact that you're not you know feeling like you're stuck in a place where you can't actually get another way out.
00:31:08
Speaker
So if you're uncomfortable for some reason in that space, if someone has entered that space, it makes you feel like you don't want to be in that space with them. You go in another you just go out the other side. So that's ah that's a big one I think that we're we think is really important to when we're creating all gender spaces I think we're also looking at something, you know, again, referring to what we talked about at the beginning, that, you know, traditional idea of the phenolic panels that have all these gaps at creating um full toilet rooms.
00:31:33
Speaker
So, you know, that was traditionally what we have talked about as a single unit washroom. But when we're now talking about a smaller space where we're creating absolute privacy for people, um wherever possible by creating full height walls that are essentially like a set wall in your house and where ah you can close the door and you know for um you basically get privacy from sound, smell, sight, all the things you know it's a washroom. It's very important.
00:32:05
Speaker
It's important for making people feel comfortable so I think that's one thing um that is that again a real shift and And then I think signage you touched on earlier too, being really clear about what's in the stall. Like, you know, yeah before you try to go in that stall, you can look on the outside and see what's actually in it, you know, the stall themselves, ah knowing whether it has any accessibility features or not.
00:32:30
Speaker
And, you know, understanding if it's a toilet, we do see some all gender multi-stall washrooms where they include urinals. So again, being really clear that a stall might have a urinal um inside rather than a toilet.
00:32:42
Speaker
It's just so people are clear, so you know exactly what you're getting going to get inside. um Features like occupancy sensors and lights. um So that horrible feeling when you push on the door because you're not sure if anyone's inside, you know, we can make that go away by being very clear about whether something is occupied or not.
00:32:59
Speaker
ah That's for both the person on the outside and on the inside. You know, nothing worse than having the door open because you thought it was locked and it wasn't. you to ah You mentioned as well, like things like ah larger stalls. You know, we we're creating stalls um that aren't necessarily about being for people using mobility devices or to increase accessibility, but thinking about people who are with...
00:33:23
Speaker
small children or someone, a carer. So while it is still a stall within the space, we're actually able to make them a little bit ah larger for different uses.
00:33:34
Speaker
and we As I mentioned before, it thinks about changing the level of privacy. So creating semi-private areas. um So baby change tables are an example of that, ah where you know for some people, they wouldn't want to change their child in a semi-private space. They would really only want to do that in an enclosed toilet room.
00:33:53
Speaker
So you know providing those options in multiple places. And for other people, semi-private would work for them. And then lastly, just thinking about you know the idea that we're separating hand washing from grooming.
00:34:05
Speaker
you know That's you know in a traditional gender-designated washroom, those two things go together. So this can actually create more efficiency because if you're not interested in the grooming um portion of that, ah you can actually just wash your hands and go.
00:34:17
Speaker
If you do, if grooming is a an important part of your washroom routine, wash your hands, and then you can move to a grooming area. So it actually just changes the way that washrooms can work and again, making them a little bit more efficient.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, such a good point because in some of the research, I was a bit surprised and maybe it's because I don't do a lot of grooming in the washroom, ah but for many, ah they felt uncomfortable grooming in a mixed gender setting. And I would say particularly among women,
00:34:49
Speaker
ah that was the case. And so to have this kind of set aside place for grooming um could still have, you know, multiple genders there, ah but that it had its own space, I think can help with some of that as well. And in certain designs, we we also you know depending on the client, you know recommend that some of the fully enclosed toilet rooms have their own mirror, right? And certainly the accessible one can, because it can usually have its own sink and that can even take the grooming to a more private setting depending on the needs, right? So there's like, even within the space, there's choice among options when it comes to grooming, because that is an important thing and for some quite personal and maybe even quite private.
00:35:33
Speaker
And then for others, I mean, I know religious um factors come to play as well, right? So, you know, needing to adjust a one's hijab, for example, ah may or be ah only suitable in a very private place. So just recognizing those different needs, I think, is really important. And so glad to hear, you know, those have been carefully considered. And, you know, I'm there's also the aspect of even down to the to the signage you were describing on the stall door.
00:36:06
Speaker
i think it's really good that it's what is in the facility, like a feature-based or function-based focus rather than who should be in the facility. Because i have found you know in certain settings, obviously not projects we worked on with HCMA, but other settings where they would want to kind of control um by gender, right? So instead of putting urinal, they would put a man symbol or a male icon on there ah to indicate that this is ah when in fact, they're people of many bodies and different genders that would need or have interest in urinal. So not kind of limiting it based on gender,
00:36:50
Speaker
but just saying, hey, behind this door is a urinal with a toilet. you know ah You choose your own adventure. So I think that signage is just really critical. Yeah, absolutely. We yeah we we advocate and for everyone. you know It's interesting that signage often not part of the scope that we have, but we still always, wherever we can, we get the point across that signage is such an important part of the washroom experience. So And, you know, if you're going to design a washroom to certain you know ideals or standards, you know don't stop there.
00:37:18
Speaker
Make sure that people understand what's in that space and how you've designed it for them. And, you know, there are some people for whom gender designated washrooms, as we know, if they work together, are the most comfortable spaces. And so if those spaces exist, make clear that that's what those are, where those spaces are for anyone.
00:37:36
Speaker
And then let's be clear about that the space is for anyone in focus on function. can still focus on function even for gender designating, but this is mostly about the toilet or the hand washing or grooming. um you know who who ah What kinds of devices can fit in that space, you know making sure that we're providing those kinds of information. Is there a change table, adult change table inside?
00:37:55
Speaker
ah Is there a baby change table inside? All of that information just reduces the cognitive overload that people experience when they're trying to just find, I just wanna use the washroom. you know and They want to find a space that meets their needs. So if we can make it easier by using pictograms that show them what's inside, and reduce the amount of wording you know that reduces language barriers. There's so many reasons why good signage can just make it better for everyone to find the space they need.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, such a good point ah that the function base be reflected in icons. So it's easy to read at a quick glance. ah Certainly you can still use text, you know, ah but if it's an all gender multi stall, you know,
00:38:37
Speaker
I love the signage that HCMA has put together. I don't know if it's exclusive to you, but certainly, you know, having everyone welcome, and that's just such a beautiful message, right, of inclusivity that makes it really easy and helpful.
00:38:53
Speaker
easy to understand along with the pictograms. So that's that's really positive and such a good point about signage, not being kind of left to the very end as an afterthought and people are scrambling and
Building Codes and Flexibility
00:39:06
Speaker
figuring it out. But you know in integrating that into the design process can really help make it a full feel and good vibes.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. As you say, that if you're going to use language, let's use language that's really important that conveys a really important message rather than just being about you know the fact that there's a toilet behind the door. Absolutely.
00:39:27
Speaker
So shifting away from the all gender multi stall, I'm sure we could talk more on that quite a bit. ah But given that we don't have, you know, three hours to talk about this, maybe another time, I did want to shift into building codes.
00:39:44
Speaker
And I know building codes, regulations, they can have an impact on how a washroom is designed or certainly clients are understandably focused on building codes.
00:39:56
Speaker
but may not know all the ins and outs of of building codes and what's possible and what's not. So if you have any insights or thoughts on that, I'd love to hear those. Yeah. and you know Building codes are important. They exist to provide and important safety features for buildings. And you know we are certainly glad they're there.
00:40:16
Speaker
However, we advocate that you know code is the minimum. Code is kind of in some senses, the worst you can do for accessibility and inclusivity. We want people to think beyond that.
00:40:27
Speaker
Now, there are some things that you know you can't get past in code, but washrooms is thankfully one where there is a great solution. So ah code dictates that the number of washrooms that have to be supplied in a space um based on the expected usage of the building.
00:40:42
Speaker
And so architects are tasked with i looking at the expected occupancy of a building and then at allocating washrooms. They're in BCBC, which is British Columbia Building Code, ah that is a 50-50 split mostly, in most cases.
00:40:57
Speaker
um What code is silent on, though, is how those washrooms then are allocated in space. they It doesn't say they can't be located in the same space. It doesn't say they need to be in a separate room um to have the men's washrooms and the women's washrooms, which is what allows us to create all-gender multi-stall washrooms that meet code and because it's you're not you're you don't have to ask for any exemption or essentially you calculate the total number of washrooms required for the building in men's and women's.
00:41:25
Speaker
And then if you imagine you were doing 100% all gender multi-stall washrooms or 100% all gender washrooms, you then just allocate them as you wish across the building space. So I think, you know and I'm not a code expert by any means,
00:41:37
Speaker
um But we do this on projects all the time, again, because code code does not dictate that you need to do that. and and Where code dictates very specific things, ah you have to meet them or exceed them. So I think in this case, we're werere able to create washrooms that work um because of that.
00:41:56
Speaker
Wow, that's ah it's good that you're doing such a careful read of the code that allows for... I have colleagues who are experts in that, as they say I say. I'm not one, I'm not an architect, I'm i'm not an architectural technologist, but and there are code consultants as well. I mean, you know every every building that's built um you know has ah a lot of people spending a lot of time thinking about the building code. And as I say, it it's there for really important reasons.
00:42:21
Speaker
um But there are things we can do that enhance accessibility and inclusivity that and are still within the bounds of code or that exceed what code is actually asking us to do. Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:32
Speaker
And it's it's so good for the code specialists to to work their magic in this type of context, because I know building codes comes up quite a bit as almost like a barrier in people's minds as we can't do this, right? And so it's good to know...
00:42:50
Speaker
to to kind of break that down for them to be like, actually, it is possible. um And the way it's written allows for many different configurations. So it's exciting to hear and and good to that message to to be heard and known so that people can feel more confident in the plans that they have.
00:43:09
Speaker
And they're not going to be running into any barriers, regulation barriers along the way. Yeah, and if anyone's working on a project, you'll be working with an architect through the process.
00:43:24
Speaker
ah you know not everyone and Not every project has a code consultant, but an architect is is the one who would determine that. So you know if if people are moving ahead with a project like this in any sort of public building, and you know that advice is available to you. And you're you're on every specific project, you're professionals will will give that input.
00:43:42
Speaker
But it is important that I think people ask the question and just don't, as you say, don't just stop with the idea that codes code says, you know, we need men's and women's washing room, stop there um there there. There are alternative solutions for other things in code as well. So this is one to to say, if this is what you want and what you're trying to achieve and the reasons behind it you can ask those questions and your building professional will help guide you through it.
00:44:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good point. Oftentimes, you know no matter the topic, clients are can be hesitant to ask these types of questions and because it feels maybe like, quote, a stupid question, right?
00:44:18
Speaker
ah But actually, the the more simple question actually can have a lot of power of kind of unlocking things where it's like, actually, it's not the way we usually do it, but X, Y, and Z, right? this We can reconfigure it in this way. So,
00:44:31
Speaker
always good to ask the question and see where goes. be clear about what you're trying to achieve and and let's let them help you to achieve wherever possible. Because I think government in general general and regulators, they don't want to get in the way of progress. Or at least that the way see, I mean maybe on other topics, yes, but not on this specific topic of, you know, meeting basic needs. I don't see...
00:44:54
Speaker
them having some sort of malicious intent against marginalized communities, right? So I would see them as willing participants in trying to make something possible.
00:45:05
Speaker
Well, especially if you think about it from the human rights perspective, which I know you've had a previous guest and talking about the human rights aspects in relation to washrooms. And I think, you know, when we think about where human rights sits within building versus building code, you know, human rights is obviously at a much higher level. So I think Creating with ah with the mindset that you're actually trying to achieve a higher level purpose um that is aligned with with a with human rights code in canada human rights legislation in Canada, I think, you know, so certainly is a ah goal that makes sense if you're trying to get past something that's decided essentially at a municipal level.
00:45:42
Speaker
like Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's such a good point.
Importance of Engagement and Feedback
00:45:47
Speaker
Next, I just wanted to briefly touch on engagement. I know designing washrooms, you already referenced it takes, it's a process, right? It just starts ah with engaging facility users. If it's a new design or a retrofit, ah usually there's some element of engagement to see what the needs are, where the pain points are, if it's our an existing building.
00:46:11
Speaker
And so I'm just curious to hear a bit more and certainly you're an engagement specialist and i know we have nerded out and many a time on you know how do we engage folks.
00:46:24
Speaker
There's many different ah factors to consider when engaging, especially marginalized communities, certainly trans and non-binary folks among them. And so just, yeah, get a bit more sense of, um you know, how HCMA incorporates the feedback of, you know, marginalized communities more generally, but specifically given this podcast theme or topic, trans and non-binary folks in in the design process.
00:46:52
Speaker
um Well, as you say, we've we've and worked on projects together where we are working with i and large clients with many existing buildings um who are looking to make a change in terms of you know inclusivity of their washrooms.
00:47:07
Speaker
and And it's important to that you know while I work with a team of inclusive design specialists and Many, many architects, um interior designers who have a strong background in this. The people who we need to hear from are obviously the people who live and work in those spaces.
00:47:26
Speaker
And, you know, these are this is something that we can't guess what any particular population thinks about that space. We really need to hear it. And I think it's important, as you say, for trying to reach marginalized people.
00:47:40
Speaker
I think it's important to to create the conditions that allow people to speak and feel safe in that. And I think, you know again, that's one of the and benefits we found certainly in working with Transfocus is you are speaking to um the people directly in a way that that i as a cisgender woman,
00:48:03
Speaker
ah I don't have that experience um and perhaps wouldn't be the person that someone want would want to open up to. And so by creating the conditions that allow people to talk about their lived experience with someone who makes them feel more comfortable, we can get better information.
00:48:16
Speaker
And then it's up to us as you know designers to work with that information incorporated in our designs to actually honor the input that we received. and to to do something with it.
00:48:28
Speaker
So you know a big part of engagement is don't ask people questions thing about things that you can't do anything with. like if you're If you're not able to action the information, just don't ask the question because it's really frustrating and heartbreaking for people to to put themselves out there, especially in an environment like this where we're asking people to talk about such an important private topic.
00:48:48
Speaker
and That if if you're not able to action it, then don't ask. Not to say that we can action absolutely everything, But just to honor the input that we receive and then to be clear about why we can or can't do some of the things, you know, especially as I mentioned earlier, um there are conflicting needs. You know, we know that we can't solve all the problems with any particular one design choice doesn't necessarily say, right, it does this works for everyone. You know, there's no such thing as absolute inclusivity or absolute accessibility.
00:49:16
Speaker
It is, it's all relative. So being clear with people that we've heard you, we've listened and put that input into our design wherever forever possible and where we haven't been able to, ah we're going to be clear with you about why we've had to make changes and what that actually results in. So and say the collection is really important. The use is really important and then closing that final feedback loop to say here's what happened.
00:49:41
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's such a key point because when there's not that feedback loop, then people wonder, and if they said something and it went into the ether and they don't know what happened.
00:49:54
Speaker
yeah And even if you're not able to do everything, I don't think there's generally the expectation that maybe certain people, they they really have a strong desire, understandably so. But for most people, they they understand that there's going to be trade-offs.
00:50:10
Speaker
But if that there's an explanation for why what they asked for didn't quite come to me bear or it came to bear in a different way, that can help them understand the journey and the tough decisions that are at play ah in a way that actually builds trust. People think that giving kind of quote bad news is is to be avoided, but actually it's to to be speaking directly to folks really helps make a difference.
00:50:36
Speaker
And then they're more likely to engage the next time to say, okay yeah ah yeah, maybe not everything um i so i asked for was implemented, but there was enough there for me to to continue to want to engage. and And I trust that these folks are doing their hardest or working their hardest to make it possible.
00:50:56
Speaker
So that that's a really big deal. um Yeah, another thing too that um we've been kind of, there's a few things and in gathering this data together, ah you know and and thank you for what you said in terms of its it is helpful to have folks in the communities that are interviewing or conducting surveys.
00:51:18
Speaker
or focus groups ah to be to be present. It's not to say that they're the only ones that need to be present, because I think a collaborative approach ah with somebody of lived experience for myself as a trans man, ah interviewing other trans and non-binary folks,
00:51:35
Speaker
but also to to have yourselves in the room too, ah you know coming from an architectural standpoint or engaged in or understanding of the kind of architectural limitations and to to be able to bring those into the conversation to say,
00:51:53
Speaker
well, we can't quite do it that way, but what about this way? And then it's more of a dialogue and ah brainstorming and working together. um And so that I think that's a really powerful blend between kind of many different disciplines.
00:52:07
Speaker
in that type of space. And you can have some pretty surprising results based on that. Just as an example, and we are finding, you know, in the communities, trans and non-binary communities, we've been hearing that folks are a bit more hesitant to have trans and non-binary washroom issues forefronted in explaining why design needs to change, right? And so that ah was surprising to even myself, right?
00:52:37
Speaker
And I think given the political environment these days, I now have ah understand that much better, right? So really explaining things in ways that the benefits are for everyone, right?
00:52:51
Speaker
And that among them are trans and non-binary folks, but not exclusively. And in that way of explaining, um it it doesn't just broaden the benefits, it also takes off some of the heat ah that some trans and non-binary folks are facing.
00:53:06
Speaker
right So yes, there's trans and non-binary folks participating and engagement that are helping with design, but they're also helping to shape how to talk about it once the you know if something has been designed, the washroom has been designed or the change room.
00:53:22
Speaker
ah So there are kind of surprising results and things change over time. And so that engagement is super critical and to for it to be multidisciplinary as well.
00:53:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, as you say, know, things do change over time, you know, attitudes change slowly, but they do change. And, and you know, I think, as I said previously, that, you know, for for fear of the unknown, um when people see that something can work, and it's done in a way that is inclusive, and, you know, the principles of universal design that we have, which and that we follow, which are, you know, by making changes for some people, you make changes that benefit more people, like, you know, those, those, those ideas, I think, are really important. And um that might check people's feelings about these things over time. You know, today you might feel, I don't know about that thing. And then you go and experience, you're like, oh, that's actually pretty good. I kind of like it.
00:54:11
Speaker
So the next time there's an opportunity, you know, maybe you're an advocate, you know, whereas previously you said nothing. So I think it's it's important to check in and not just assume because we asked somebody before that that'll be their answer. today Right, yeah, absolutely.
00:54:24
Speaker
ah Yeah, such a good point about engagement. It's the kind of final question in wrapping up our time here together, the time has flown. ah And as I mentioned, I could talk about this a lot more.
00:54:38
Speaker
ah But I'm just curious if you have any, you know, examples or stories of how inclusive washroom design has really had a positive impact on ah building a building users or community, anything that you can share anecdotally or, you know, broadly ah to to kind of shed light on the shifting landscape.
00:55:05
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say you know we've we've worked on a number of buildings that have incorporated all gender multi-stall washrooms in particular, if we think about the sort of the more extreme end of the you know new washroom typologies that are inclusive.
00:55:18
Speaker
um And you know we've had great feedback from a range of people, you know that families you can now not worry about, you have a parent of a different gender to the child, and you know do I want to send my young son into the men's room alone? you know our that that just removes that concern for people. like They can go in, everyone goes in the same space, which is really powerful and positive.
00:55:40
Speaker
ah Likewise for people with carers who are a different gender, you know that being able to have a carer come with you in a space, um whereas previously you know that that option is removed for people.
00:55:53
Speaker
um For the building operators themselves, you know people who run these spaces, find work better, it creates efficiencies for staff. So, you know, again, staff who have to close off a washroom um because ah They are not the same gender and therefore, you know the washroom is now out of commission for the period of time it takes to clean it.
00:56:17
Speaker
ah So those types of things
Benefits of Inclusive Design
00:56:20
Speaker
have come up for us. ah We've heard from people who run recreational groups, for example, they have many kids, you know, ah you're everyone is needs to use the washroom. So you come with 10 kids, they can all go in the stalls and, know, the recreation leader can stand and wait for them.
00:56:36
Speaker
I think you know those are great. And of course, we've heard from trans and non-binary people that these washrooms are welcome and that they create spaces that work for them. So you know those are that's our wide range of people that are talking to us about spaces that previously you know didn't didn't work for them that now see a space that does.
00:56:55
Speaker
And so you know that's that's really good for us. and And that for some people, it's changed their perspective. you know that As I said said before, you know they didn't They didn't know what would be like now they've seen it and you know it's it's actually shifted their feelings about it and would support it in another context. i I think,
00:57:13
Speaker
You know, the stuff we talked about, about signage, you know, we've had a lot of feedback again about the importance of that, making people feel welcome um and really making clear about what washroom space ah washroom spaces are are available to them and you just reducing again, a lot of the overhead about washrooms, making it simple. Everyone needs to use them, you know, let's make it easy for people.
00:57:35
Speaker
um And i know I think really they've been ah and really ah positive success um you know there are there are always going people who are you know it's not the right fit for them or you know building operators who maybe would prefer a slightly different solution but on the whole the feedback we've received is really positive um and i you know it's a conversation now for pretty much every project we work on um yeah and you know not to say that every client is able to do it you know there are some extra costs involved there's extra costs involved primarily from the creation of privacy
00:58:10
Speaker
So it isn't really about whether it's gender designated or not. It's those toilet rooms that i we talked about earlier. they They cost more money. They cost more to build stud walls and they cost just little bit more mechanical. um However, we know everybody wants the privacy. So you know it is really, it becomes less about the gender issue and more about privacy.
00:58:30
Speaker
Can you afford to to provide this extra level of privacy in your space? and And so it has shifted the way we have discussions and we're able to articulate much more clearly for people but what the range of options are um and encourage them you know to to consider for each each facility, what is the range of options that you can offer to your you were visitors and and to do those in the best way possible.
00:58:55
Speaker
Yeah, so so well put. i It's really interesting with certain clients we've done pre and post surveys on um all gender multi-stall washrooms and also change rooms as well.
00:59:10
Speaker
And you know extreme amount of hesitance and concern and fear, like we were talking about the outset. And then you know three, six months later, um a lot of folks, not everyone obviously, but certainly a big number are our majority, I would say, our city is kind of no big deal.
00:59:31
Speaker
um And they're surprised by that, pleasantly surprised by that. And realizing that, especially if it's well designed in the ways that HCMA does, it really does provide like a community vibe. ah it's i don't know how to describe it otherwise.
00:59:47
Speaker
you know People are looking out for each other. you know People are respectful. Obviously not everyone you know all the time, but for the most part. um you know It's well lit and all these different factors. And so ah that really is a huge deal, especially to trans and non-binary folks where you know in gender specific spaces, because they're so narrowly defined within societal expectations,
01:00:13
Speaker
you know Only if you look this way can you really access in an easy, comfortable way. um you know if you're If you don't look super feminine and you're going into the women's washroom, no matter if you're trans or cisgender, you're going to have some comments, questions, stares.
01:00:31
Speaker
Some people will look be walking into the women's washroom, see somebody that maybe looks a little bit more masculine, and then turn around and leave. right like Just really ridiculous things like...
01:00:43
Speaker
I appreciate that some people, um it maybe just catches them off guard. It's not meant maliciously all the time. um But it does bear a cost on ah trans and non-binary folks. And there's just a less or more of a desire for a space where those expectations are essentially gone.
01:01:02
Speaker
right where everybody, no matter how they look, present, identify, ah you know how they're mobile, they can exist in that space without question and um are welcomed in there. And so that's, I think, a really key part. um Just understanding those dynamics and gender-specific spaces really drives the desire for an all-gender space, especially multi-stall.
01:01:27
Speaker
I would say, especially when we're thinking about single unit washrooms, there is interest there too. But oftentimes, especially if it's accessible, um and trans and non-binary folks feel um self-conscious accessing those spaces because they think they're taking up important set-aside spaces for ah people ah people with disability.
01:01:49
Speaker
And so they don't ever want to intrude on that space. And that's where the all gender multi-stall really just takes care of all of that. And everyone is there and everyone can access it.
01:02:01
Speaker
So. In the words of a client recently, we heard everyone needs a safe place to pee, and that's it. It's so simple. It's so so simple. But yet, there is a lot to it, as we're able to kind of unpack in this episode. So I just really appreciate you coming on here today, Marnie, and talking about your experiences along with those um HCMA, and again, just...
01:02:25
Speaker
very much just so much gratitude for the work that you're doing. It does take a lot of effort and, you know, i' I'm sure energies can flag, you know, depending on the circumstances. Obviously, there are wonderful clients, I'm sure, but just appreciating that change over time just takes persistence, commitment, passion to make it happen. And certainly,
01:02:50
Speaker
you know, not just on trans and non-binary issues, on all kinds of issues. we really need strong allies. And certainly we do have that in you and other folks at HCMA. So big thank you.
01:03:02
Speaker
Our pleasure and always great to work with you. And I look forward to many more opportunities for us to collaborate on mushrooms that include more people. Agreed. Well, I hope you have a good rest of your day and we'll talk soon, I'm sure. Thanks, Kai.
01:03:16
Speaker
Okay. Bye for now.