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Malcolm Webster: Charm and Kill
40 Plays26 days ago
How can one man do this much damage? How can he have genuine human emotion, charm and wit and still be a poisoner, a pyromaniac, a con man and a killer? All in plain sight, no less...
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Transcript
Introduction to Hearth, Home, and Homicide
00:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello, listeners. I'm Bridget.
00:00:05
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are listening to Hearth, Home, and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I narrate each story.
00:00:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Andy is our
Effects of Family Murders
00:00:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
producer. As Caroline and I talk about each family murder, we're not only wanting to see justice unfold for the killer, whatever that may look like,
00:00:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we also want to recognize that the ripple effect of family murders never ends. And generational trauma
Unusual Murder Story in Scotland
00:00:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
is real.
00:00:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, Caroline, today we're going to go to Scotland.
00:00:51
Caroline
Ooh.
00:00:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I kind of like the sound of that.
00:00:53
Caroline
I do too.
00:00:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So pack your bags. We're going to Scotland, everybody. And today's family murder, to me, is and ah unusual because of the circumstances.
00:01:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The killer is a bit unusual, and it doesn't take a lot I don't think, to figure out what's going on with this person because they're so superficial about how
Life in Aberdeenshire and the Morris Family
00:01:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
superficial they are.
00:01:26
Caroline
Right.
00:01:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and ah So we're going to begin in Scotland in the far northeastern place called Aberdeenshire. This is an idyllic place, and a place of agriculture, you know, the the countryside, the beauty of it all.
00:01:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Family farming, locals staying their whole life due to the beauty and the way of life. So ah let's just meet the family that we're talking about.
00:02:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Everyone knows everyone, certainly in the community, that knew and loved the Morris family. The Morris's were landowners, successful and respected in the community.
00:02:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Their daughter, Claire, was
Claire Morris and Malcolm Webster's Relationship
00:02:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
especially close with her brother, Peter. So, you know, I think that this was an idyllic kind of place with some pretty stable and loving families.
00:02:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Everyone in the community was so happy that Claire had become a nurse, right? When she grew up, went to college, she was very much loved for her sweet, sweet manner that was genuine and devotion to service to her patients and the community.
00:02:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know she was just starting out as a nurse. When she met a nurse there who had more experience and she was asking him a lot of questions and kind of mentorship, friendship, his name was Malcolm Webster.
00:03:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She met him at work and he's going to kill her. So
Malcolm Webster's Troubled Background
00:03:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that is our story today. But how it unfolds is kind of unique.
00:03:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Malcolm had recently become a nurse and, you know, they just hit it off, he and Claire. He was very charming, very witty, very doting on her, what I call love bombing.
00:03:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he came from a well-known family in Surrey, England.
00:03:36
Caroline
Thank you.
00:03:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So on the surface, there's some gloss there. His parents were seen, though, locally in Surrey as cold, strict.
00:03:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Both of them were in law enforcement. And buckle up when you hear about this father. The father was a high-ranking officer, in fact, and he had a lot of power in the community as well as at home.
00:04:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The children could only talk, for example. They can only talk when the father gave them permission, not the mother and the father.
00:04:19
Caroline
Oh, no.
00:04:23
Caroline
Well, and who's seeking permission to talk in a home? i don't know. Already strikes me as a major red flag.
00:04:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, just to clear it up, that's not a Scottish thing to do. I mean, that's not like this is really standing out as sick in my mind and harmful to the children.
00:04:34
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:04:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:42
Caroline
Yeah. Overly controlling at its best. Yeah.
00:04:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Malcolm Webster, you know, the son, he was one of twins. So there were twin brothers. They had a sister as well. Malcolm was the least loved of the family, according to many.
00:05:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, this wound up in almost every report and every newspaper article that I read about him. He was the least loved.
00:05:08
Caroline
Oh my God.
00:05:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
How can you be least loved?
00:05:09
Caroline
And for people to say that means they saw that from the outside looking in. So what was the inside experiencing it like? Oh.
00:05:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Yeah.
Malcolm's Destructive Behavior
00:05:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I believe it. I believe it.
00:05:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:05:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If people can detect that someone in that family is the black sheep.
00:05:28
Caroline
Yeah. Which you kind of can.
00:05:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, that's the word I would use, but you know, least loved.
00:05:30
Caroline
I mean, if you,
00:05:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
How can you be least loved? You're either loved or you're not loved.
00:05:36
Caroline
I know. But you can see, like, I could see how people could come to a conclusion about like, oh the favorite of the family or or, you know, people say stuff like that, the golden child, blah, blah, blah.
00:05:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:05:48
Caroline
But to actually identify that one of the children is the least favorite and the least loved just makes me sad because...
00:05:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It makes me sad too.
00:05:58
Caroline
Yeah, because they were probably packaging something for for like public consumption and people still picked up on this.
00:05:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, because this kid didn't have a chance.
00:06:04
Caroline
I don't know. That's sad.
00:06:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, it gets worse in the description of this family dysfunction, which is putting it mildly. I want to maybe call it the dark family overtones, but they're not really overtones. you're oh It's overt.
00:06:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Uh, Trauma.
00:06:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's the best word I have for it.
00:06:29
Caroline
the
00:06:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I believe that he was the least favorite if everybody's saying he is. The father ruled so much heavy, sick power, my term, over his family that when the father had to use the bathroom, everyone had to leave the house.
00:06:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It could be the middle of winter. in the middle of the night, and everybody has to put their shoes and their coat on and go outside and wait because daddy has to go poo or daddy has to go pee or whatever.
00:06:58
Caroline
What?
00:07:09
Caroline
What?
00:07:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:07:10
Caroline
Oh my god. That's weird. That's super weird.
00:07:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, it's a fetish sort of, you know, like I can only do this alone or the power, something about the power that I have over these people that the father is feeling.
00:07:20
Caroline
Maybe. Yeah.
00:07:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that I can create a universe without interruption and nobody's going to be in on my business. When I say business, I mean bathroom business.
00:07:36
Caroline
Where does the wife go? ah Does she get to stay in the house or is she taking the caravan outside?
00:07:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I can't read it. i had I could not find one word about this wife. So this tells me that she was kind of meek, even though she was also in law enforcement.
00:07:49
Caroline
Yep. Yeah. Strange dynamic. Hmm.
00:07:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know what this tells me about the father, and I almost want to bring the mother in on it too, but I'm going to blame the father. This tells me he did not give a good damn about how his family felt about anything, including how they felt about him.
00:08:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He went out of the way to be hated, in my opinion.
00:08:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Malcolm as a child was an attention seeker. And, you know, other kids at school and things like that are drawn to that. They're drawn to the child who is acting funny, acting up.
00:08:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But with Malcolm, it wasn't acting funny or acting up. It was he would start fires. So, ah you know, if I was the labeled by everyone in my universe as the least loved of my family, i would rather come from a loveless home than a meted out love home where I got the short end of the stick.
00:08:42
Caroline
I mean...
00:08:49
Caroline
Right.
00:08:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, good Lord. So he started setting fires at age seven. So that's pretty much when you're starting to get into school. He found out I can get some attention.
00:09:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His nickname as a kid, as a kid, Caroline, a child, his nickname was Pyro.
00:09:11
Caroline
Oh no.
00:09:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Plus, here's another problem with Malcolm. He was always playing sick. Not the way most of us do, where we just are really, you know, don't want to face the day and we just pretend to have a sore throat.
00:09:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Malcolm was taken to the hospital frequently with fainting, vicious pain, and so forth. He told all of his friends at school that he had a brain tumor.
00:09:43
Caroline
Oh, interesting.
00:09:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So here we're getting a picture of someone as a child who is creating ways to be the center of attention and he has no bounds.
00:09:59
Caroline
know Yeah. Yep.
00:10:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um Setting a fire doesn't feel, you know, out of bounds for him.
00:10:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is a kid who has to go outside all the time in the cold, in the rain, because his father has to use the bathroom.
00:10:17
Caroline
Well, and the amount of lack of control he must have had over every other faculty in his life. And I mean every other faculty. If you're having to leave the house when someone goes to the bathroom, regardless of the time of day, and if you cannot speak until you're given permission to do so in a house that big with that many kids, like I just, the amount of loss of autonomy. Yeah.
00:10:39
Caroline
These seem actually like, ah like outcomes that match the deprivation, if that makes sense.
00:10:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, yeah, I mean, it says something about humanity, the the cry of humanity under every circumstance where we are canceled.
00:10:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:54
Caroline
Yeah, that's right.
00:11:03
Caroline
Right. You're robbed of your own faculty to do anything about this, but you must suffer and experiencing it.
00:11:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Yes.
00:11:10
Caroline
Like,
00:11:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:11:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's just an existential ah trauma. put upon you by your home.
00:11:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the only way that you can express yourself is when you're at school and you're choosing to do it in dramatic ways. And you may not even know that it's dramatic because you don't have any yardstick.
00:11:30
Caroline
Right. Right. And you're getting attention. So that's really the only thing you're thinking of in the moment is this like sort of like a drug button thing at the hospital bed. You know, you're like pain, press button, no more pain. Like
The Romance and Deception
00:11:45
Caroline
it's a little like that in terms of the response. So so it's not like a lot of critical thinking is going into it. He's just feeling his way through this awful circumstance where he has no control over anything except these things he chooses to do, like set fires and
00:12:01
Caroline
cause, hurl himself on the ground and, you know, things like that.
00:12:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What you just said about pushing the buzzer and getting someone to come and relieve you of pain, even where whether the pain is real or imagined, it's still pain.
00:12:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:15
Caroline
Yeah. Yes.
00:12:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and so And so that's a really good point, that he is putting himself into circumstances where he does have control.
00:12:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He sets these fires with no regard for what the consequence might be, so much so that he has a nickname of pyro, fire, one of the most important things
00:12:26
Caroline
Yes.
00:12:30
Caroline
Right?
00:12:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah discoveries of mankind and humankind.
00:12:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he This is how deep the fire symbol and the warmth of it and all of the above and the ability to start a fire.
00:12:53
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's just so powerful. So you're absolutely right.
00:12:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Even the act of clicking the button at the hospital is euphoric.
00:13:01
Caroline
Yes. You get addicted to this control you have at any time you want, you know.
00:13:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, it's just like if you're not getting love at home, if you are being erased as a human being, you're going to be a human being somewhere else or you're not going to survive.
00:13:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, I have some empathy for him as a child.
00:13:20
Caroline
That's right.
00:13:24
Caroline
ah well Well, we can see how this happened. Yeah.
00:13:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, I can see how it happened.
00:13:27
Caroline
It's, yeah.
00:13:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can. So, i mean, one of the things that fascinates me about this case is that you know, we're going to get into how can other people stay out of his um war on the world?
00:13:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
how can How can people stay out of that when he's so charming?
00:13:45
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:13:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's charming.
00:13:51
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's also got perceptions that charm doesn't do anything for you in your house of origin for him.
00:13:59
Caroline
right
00:13:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
your home of origin, but it, and the family of origin, but it does get you an audience out there.
00:14:08
Caroline
yeah
00:14:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So as an adult, most people viewed Malcolm Webster as perfect for Claire when they started dating. Peter, Claire's brother who doted on her and loved her and protected her and thought the world of her in their family.
00:14:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um he was all for it. He really liked Webster.
00:14:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:14:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He really liked him. Uh, I should call him by his first name, Malcolm, but he really liked Malcolm because he was funny. He was clever. He was, you know, if you can sit and talk to somebody and laugh yourself silly and, you,
00:14:50
Caroline
You're going to like that person.
00:14:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. And somebody who's always got a good repartee and got you can joke around with and just enjoy, you know, what they have to say.
00:14:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:14:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um So he was, you know, the even the brother, Peter, ah he felt like it was like a storybook tale of true love. And I've seen some interviews with Peter and he admits that I just was so delighted for my sister,
The Marriage and Financial Ruin
00:15:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
just so happy for my sister.
00:15:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So on the 3rd of September, 1993, they um they got married. ah Malcolm and Claire got married on the family estate in Aberdeenshire.
00:15:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There was so much joy that day. smiles from ear to ear. I've seen a lot of pictures of the wedding and it was almost like a royal wedding. I mean, it was serious people with serious money with a big serious house having a wedding for their daughter.
00:15:52
Caroline
Right.
00:15:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, it was big. There was just so much going on that was positive and back-slapping between all the men, like, this is the way it ought to be, you know, that kind of thing.
00:16:12
Caroline
right
00:16:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All of whom thought Malcolm was just a perfect, perfect gentleman. He's funny. He's likable. He's charming.
00:16:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What's not to like? However, not long after the wedding, Claire fell ill.
00:16:34
Caroline
Oh. Oh.
00:16:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Things were going well at first until she realized that Malcolm
The Murder and Aftermath
00:16:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
really didn't have any money and that he was spending money like confetti.
00:16:46
Caroline
oh
00:16:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he didn't like to be told what he could and could not do. And he didn't like to be quizzed about how much money he was spending.
00:16:56
Caroline
so
00:16:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so she became lethargic. No energy. The only comfort she had was her attentive husband, who was always at the ready with a cup of tea.
00:17:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Over time, Claire wanted to see a doctor, and Malcolm agreed that he would take her to a doctor the very next day. That night, she was completely out of it.
00:17:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And of course, Malcolm made her tea to try and help her. But instead, he loaded her in the passenger seat of their car. Remember, he's taking her to the doctor.
00:17:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but She's unconscious, but he's still taking her to the doctor, he says. He drove their car down a country lane. Several people said later that they passed Malcolm and Claire.
00:17:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then Malcolm drove the car off the road over a small embankment and straight into a tree. He got out, and as it happened, he had put a can of petrol in the boot of the car.
00:18:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This would be the trunk of the car. But you can tell I've been reading, you know, English english news reports.
00:18:14
Caroline
I was going to say. Yes. Petrol is gasoline for those of who weren't sure.
00:18:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, the bright right, right, right. But the police stopped and asked Malcolm if he needed help. So they were coming by this lane, and Malcolm, are they they may or not may not have known him known him in person, but they just said, do you need some help?
00:18:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, no.
00:18:36
Caroline
Oh gosh.
00:18:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, they asked him, is anybody else in the car? And he said, no, no, no, it's just me. I'll figure it out. Go run along. There's other crimes that you need to, you know, that whatever. He shooed him away.
00:18:49
Caroline
like god
00:18:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Finally, when the coast was clear, Malcolm doused the car with the petrol and the entire vehicle began to go up in flames and smoke. A passersby came, and it was then that Malcolm feigned panic and was screaming because his wife was in the car.
00:19:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then the car exploded, and Claire was welded to the seat springs.
00:19:13
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:19:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was dead, and she was burned alive.
00:19:18
Caroline
oh
00:19:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, remember, she was unconscious because he had drugged her so severely. Malcolm Webster made out with over $200,000 in life insurance on Claire.
00:19:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They had only been married eight months. Now, $200,000 in 1993.
00:19:36
Caroline
That's a lot of money.
00:19:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, millions, millions.
00:19:40
Caroline
That was a lot.
00:19:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They had only married for eight months. Eight months.
00:19:46
Caroline
feel like you shouldn't be able to get a payout like that after only eight months of a marriage. I don't know. i i just, I don't know.
00:19:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I agree.
00:19:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i agree. Now, of course, you know, one way to look at it is she's a nurse, he's a nurse, and they probably took out policies on each other, but, and it could have been through work, but,
00:20:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:09
Caroline
They might have even just changed beneficiaries. These could have been a policy they had the whole time and they just simply changed beneficiaries.
00:20:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah.
00:20:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, who knows?
00:20:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he got money. He bought a Range Rover and a yacht,
00:20:23
Caroline
Oh, geez. Okay.
00:20:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Within a few months, he was whining and dining women and taking them out on his yacht. Oh, great. Get on the yacht and go out in the middle of the Atlantic and see what happens.
00:20:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was very, very quickly burning through his wife's life insurance money.
00:20:39
Caroline
Well, and
00:20:43
Caroline
I was going to you know, $200,000 in 1993 is like such a payday until you buy a yacht. Who's buying yachts?
00:20:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:20:51
Caroline
Who needs a yacht? so Nobody needs a flipping yacht.
00:20:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When I was growing up, I called them yatchits because of the way they were spelled.
00:21:01
Caroline
That's how I'm going to refer to them from now on. Oh, look, a yacht jet. What great use of funds.
00:21:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah
00:21:06
Caroline
Hmm.
00:21:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I might have gotten that from my father because he was irreverent toward rich people.
00:21:11
Caroline
and
00:21:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um oh ah So, you know, thanks a lot.
00:21:15
Caroline
well overly rich let's say overly rich because anyone with a yacht I mean come on you're not supplying fish for your local community we all know that sorry
00:21:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, it's why this is why they call the uber-rich the leisure class.
00:21:31
Caroline
oh yeah yeah further away from their normal leisure spots
00:21:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They need a yacht to have mega leisure.
00:21:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, their normal leisure would be drinking and having a good time and thinking about how they can improve their image if they if they aren't on top of a heap of other...
00:21:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
rich people. But anyway, back to our story of Claire and Malcolm. The investigation into her death was non-existent because what issues were raised, such as some of the witnesses ah did say that ah they saw a petrol can ah and some of the witnesses told that, you know, he said there wasn't anybody in the car, but
00:22:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Nothing was done because no one wanted to be in trouble with the top man in the police force who was Malcolm's father.
00:22:32
Caroline
Right. yeah Awkward. It was an awkward time, I imagine, to tell your real story about what you saw that night,
Manipulation and Private Investigations
00:22:40
Caroline
all things considered.
00:22:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, even the police were like they wanted to investigate it.
00:22:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They felt certain that him lying about nobody being in the car, the car being at a standstill for a long time before it erupted into flames, that's not actually how fire works in a car.
00:22:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:00
Caroline
yeah
00:23:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:05
Caroline
Right. Yeah. Like, oh so awkward, I imagine. And they all, you know, if they all know him like this and they know his dad, they probably knew him coming up, too. So they, it's all compounded.
00:23:18
Caroline
oh awkward. Okay.
00:23:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Well, now remember, he's from Surrey. his His family originally is from Surrey.
00:23:27
Caroline
Oh, okay.
00:23:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know if maybe there's some kind of thing where, i don't know. I'm just trying to figure out why would people cower around this man?
00:23:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Does he make everybody leave the building, the police office building, you know, the police station, you know, when he has to use the restroom?
00:23:44
Caroline
Oh, right. Oh my god, right.
00:23:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, I don't know.
00:23:48
Caroline
He probably goes home and he's like, everyone out. ah
00:23:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Here's what I do know, and this is my favorite part of the whole story, and that is that there were people on the police force who spent their private time and private money working on this case.
00:24:13
Caroline
Oh, well, that is nice. That's true calling right there.
00:24:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster's brother-in-law, Peter Morris, And remember, he just loved his sister so much. Later recalled at Claire's funeral, he said, he was talking to a reporter.
00:24:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He said, um i had a very firm grip on ah Malcolm's hand. He's talking about carrying the casket, taking it to the burial plot.
00:24:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was actually squeezing my hand. So Malcolm is holding on for dear life and cutting the circulation off of the brother Peter just to show how devastated he was.
00:25:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Most people had their heads down and I glanced at him and he was full of tears as I was. And that convinced me up until three years ago that he had lost his wife in an accident And in reality, I was holding the hand of her murderer.
00:25:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the brother, can you imagine what he goes through on a daily basis in terms of trauma?
00:25:34
Caroline
no because i yeah the way that the memory is stored in the brain and then relived later like i can't these are really hard for people to carry around i imagine you know these kinds of memories
00:25:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. You know, it's I just have never really read a story about a killer who was devastated at the funeral when other people didn't observe that he was crying, but there were no tears.
00:26:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is one way that I think Malcolm is really... even more than usually than other killers, I think he's really twisted in that he can tap into grief.
00:26:22
Caroline
The real emotion behind the.
00:26:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, he can make he can do the crying part, which usually comes from, you know, the lymphatic system that is ah triggered by real emotion.
00:26:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:34
Caroline
Right.
00:26:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is unusual to me.
00:26:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that he has access to real emotions, whereas other psychopaths and sociopaths don't have these emotions, so they don't, they're not good at crying.
00:26:49
Caroline
Right. Yeah. They would be faking it in a different, overly dramatic way.
00:26:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you could tell.
00:26:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So a police officer later revealed that he investigated Claire Webster's death on his own in his spare time as he had the following concerns. Claire had not been able to escape.
00:27:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The car had been traveling slowly. There was an absence of skid marks. A fireman shared similar concerns. At the trial, he said, ah still think why didn't the person who was there not pull the person out of the vehicle?
00:27:28
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, of course, you know, there's a reason for that that is because of the fire setting in the first place.
00:27:35
Caroline
was He was staging a murder, people.
00:27:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So people are on to Malcolm, but they have no evidence. Former firefighter Derek McDonald suspected foul play.
00:27:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He later informed the BBC, quote, we all thought it was a bit hooky.
00:27:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but I've never heard that word before, but that is what the word was that he said. This is hooky. There was no sign of violence in the car.
00:28:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
For a car to be stopped, or parked, and then later burst into frames, that doesn't happen, not unless it's in the movies. After Claire's death, a friend, a nurse named Sarah Dodd-Dick, said both she and her husband had written to the prosecutor that Claire had told her she had been in a similar accident some months earlier.
00:28:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster had been driving while Claire was a passenger, and their car ended up in a
Deceit and Double Life
00:28:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ditch.
00:28:41
Caroline
ah Oh my god.
00:28:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he had a trial run.
00:28:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Meanwhile, Malcolm was the man about town with women now that Claire dead. He dated a woman that he worked with named Geraldine Oakley. She found him odd, and one thing in particular grabbed her attention.
00:29:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Malcolm could not stop asking her, if she thought the medical examiner would perform another autopsy on Claire.
00:29:09
Caroline
What?
00:29:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, that's a big red flag. He's running around worried about another autopsy.
00:29:11
Caroline
Huge.
00:29:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They did an autopsy on what was left, and they found that she died of smoke fire.
00:29:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:22
Caroline
Plus, why would you talk about with that with someone who you're like, first of all, piling around in what I would see as much too soon after your wife's death? Like, why why would you discuss that with them?
00:29:34
Caroline
Like, weird.
00:29:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Well, you know, he could not stop talking about his worries that somehow he's going to be blamed.
00:29:43
Caroline
Oh my god.
00:29:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So now he's, okay, so we've got the fact that you've killed and you're, you know, acting out in the pyromaniac way that you have pyro.
00:29:43
Caroline
Right.
00:29:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah now you're going to act like a victim of an unjust legal system and you're going to fret and but worry in order to obtain information about does anybody know anything?
00:30:06
Caroline
right
00:30:14
Caroline
ah Right. It's a little too obvious, honestly.
00:30:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Geraldine grew tired of Malcolm and went to the medical examiner herself with the odd focus on another autopsy.
00:30:29
Caroline
Good for her.
00:30:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I thought, ah good for her.
00:30:30
Caroline
Good job, Geraldine.
00:30:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's a hero. She's a hero.
00:30:32
Caroline
Yep.
00:30:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was obvious to her that Malcolm was with women who would pay their own way and his as well.
00:30:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:30:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She didn't like that either.
00:30:42
Caroline
Geraldine, you're my kind of gal.
00:30:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, me too, me too. He frequently laughed and said, why work when someone else can work for you?
00:30:50
Caroline
Oh my God, idiot.
00:30:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I don't know if he said that to her or that was just something he was famous for saying. Maybe he said it to friends at the wedding. You know, I don't know. But he, it was Geraldine is, I'm going to call that normal.
00:31:08
Caroline
Yeah, that's, yeah.
00:31:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
if If, where, that no ah no no pun intended, Caroline, but where there's smoke, there's fire.
00:31:14
Caroline
Yes, 100%. hundred percent
00:31:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And be suspicious when you're dating.
00:31:18
Caroline
Or like my favorite is when someone tells you who they are or shows you who they are, believe them.
00:31:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bang, Caroline, you got it. You got it.
00:31:29
Caroline
Yeah, I think that was Maya Angelou who said that. But she said a lot of things that are absolutely correct. That's one of them.
00:31:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
she cause She could see through the conventions of the man-made world and get right to the soul of mankind, which was, among other things, suspicious.
00:31:45
Caroline
Oh, yep.
00:31:50
Caroline
Yes. But yet also very, very forthright and letting you know where it stands.
00:31:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, she was very forthright. and There's not enough of her going around.
00:32:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In 1995, a year after Claire's death, Webster was living in Saudi Arabia, and he had lived there before, where he struck up a friendship with Brenda Grant via telephone.
00:32:07
Caroline
Okay.
00:32:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, what they mean in the In ah Scotland and and in Europe, when you meet someone by telephone, that's another way of saying through the internet.
00:32:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So you're you're at an in a dating site.
00:32:29
Caroline
Oh, really?
00:32:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're at a dating site.
00:32:32
Caroline
Oh, okay.
00:32:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Eventually they met up. So in other words, their relationship, their friendship started via telephone. That just means you haven't met them yet.
00:32:43
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Eventually, they started their relationship in real time, you know, and Grant later revealed that Webster repeatedly offered her drugs. She refused, and she considers herself lucky to be alive.
00:32:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's because you're lucky to be alive.
00:32:58
Caroline
Yeah, big time.
00:33:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he's ah He's offering drugs to you.
00:33:03
Caroline
Yep.
00:33:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Apparently, she wasn't a tea drinker.
00:33:08
Caroline
Thank God.
00:33:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So...
00:33:09
Caroline
Yeah. Reminder, do just say no to drugs, kids. Here's why.
00:33:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, Brenda, this lady that we're talking about here, she described Webster as a man who would turn on the waterworks the minute that you brought up a subject in conversation so that he could avoid certain conversations.
00:33:34
Caroline
Yeah, it's pretty common.
00:33:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it Yeah. Like, tell me again how your wife died. You know, oh, my God, I can't talk about it.
00:33:41
Caroline
Yeah, and then...
00:33:44
Caroline
and Yeah, you you know, a lot of us have seen this in real time in conversations when someone is actively avoiding talking about something and they're really doing it up.
00:33:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, that.
00:33:54
Caroline
A lot of times it's anger that will throw a big fit, but sometimes people do get overly emotional. Yeah.
00:34:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Brenda's like Geraldine, you know, I'm done with you. you know, something's not right here. So, I mean, anyway, in 2005, now remember, he is with Brenda in 1995, which is just a year after Claire's death.
00:34:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But in then again in 2005, Malcolm contacted Brenda out of the blue to arrange a trip to Paris. And he told her, I need you to come to Paris because I have leukemia and I need somebody by my side who will support me.
00:34:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She, Brenda, had no idea that their friendship, their relationship overlapped with that of another woman named Simone Banerjee, who we're going to talk about in a minute.
00:34:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The two women later became friends. Well, yeah, you've got the devil in common. You've met the devil.
00:35:02
Caroline
Yeah, they both survived a very deadly event together.
00:35:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway.
00:35:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. So while in Paris with Brenda Grant, Malcolm snuck around and told Banerjee that he had leukemia and he needed treatment.
00:35:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he he's really locked in on this new persona to get sympathy and female companionship because, you know, he knows that many, many women
00:35:23
Caroline
leukemia thing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
love to heal others.
00:35:31
Caroline
And take care of. and Yeah, but he needs money, too.
00:35:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:35:34
Caroline
So he's like maybe doubling his bets, hedging his bets.
00:35:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Paris was more of the same spending his girlfriend's money. And when they got back to Saudi Arabia, Brenda called it quits. She's like, you know what?
00:35:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm
Repeated Murder Attempts and Felicity's Escape
00:35:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
not getting back in this again.
00:35:51
Caroline
Cuckoo.
00:35:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Don't call me.
00:35:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:35:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Leave me alone. So let's talk for a minute about a woman by the name of Felicity Drum. Webster married oncology nurse Felicity Drum in New Zealand.
00:36:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Isn't that interesting that he would marry or, you know, he that he would marry an oncology nurse in 1997?
00:36:07
Caroline
He's all over.
00:36:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So we're I'm backtracking about the Paris thing because I'm just trying to illustrate what was leading up to what happened.
00:36:17
Caroline
Yeah, he's all over the world.
00:36:22
Caroline
he He's bouncing around with all these girlfriends all over all these continents, really, trying to drum up probably several different lifestyles that he could live off of throughout the world.
00:36:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:36:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. So here he is in New Zealand before he went to Paris and made up a bunch of lies there. And they married in 1997 and she gave birth to a son.
00:36:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then in 1999, he was accused of ah attempting to kill Drum to fraudulently obtain 750,000 pounds from nine insurance policies that he took out on her.
00:37:03
Caroline
ah Oh my God. Okay. First of all, perhaps this gears us towards a law limiting the number of insurance policies against any one individual human, but wow.
00:37:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:15
Caroline
oh my gosh.
00:37:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
On their honeymoon, so they're on their honeymoon, they're in New Zealand, for Felicity was from New Zealand, so he he's willing to travel to get a mark, you know.
00:37:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's that kind of guy. So on their honeymoon, Felicity had slept 36 hours after consuming a drink that her husband had given to her.
00:37:40
Caroline
yeah
00:37:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And on another occasion, she had slept 18 hours. She also experienced double vision, and a blood test showed abnormalities in her liver.
00:37:55
Caroline
Oh my God.
00:37:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is a woman.
00:37:56
Caroline
he poisons these women.
00:37:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Yes. He's poisoning her. This is before we went to Paris.
00:38:04
Caroline
wow, that's so creepy that he's doing all this, like like there are different pans on us top of the stove, you know?
00:38:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:38:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Yes. I think I wanted to put the Brenda case before the Felicity case, because the the Felicity case is monumental and long, but the Brenda case happened after that.
00:38:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So these are the things that he's getting away with
00:38:33
Caroline
Right.
00:38:36
Caroline
in between.
00:38:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
wherever he goes, whatever the date, whatever the timeline, no matter what, he's out there like a predator looking for, he's like a mosquito looking for an arm that doesn't have mosquito repellent on it.
00:38:39
Caroline
so yeah.
00:38:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:50
Caroline
Right. Right.
00:38:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, you're going to be buzzing around people.
00:38:52
Caroline
Right.
00:38:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, he's just a he's just a thing that is preying on people, but back to felicity. Yeah. So Felicity's in this marriage. She's sleeping too long.
00:39:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She took herself to the doctor and a subjected herself to all these tests and things.
00:39:07
Caroline
Oh, good for her.
00:39:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then she went on to tell people after, you know, during the trial of of Webster and all of that, she says that during their marriage, he caused three house fires, including one at her parents' house.
00:39:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's still lighting fires, Caroline.
00:39:31
Caroline
And why her parents?
00:39:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
After one of the fires, Felicity was unable to find her identification, but later saw her driver's license on Webster's desk. Now, what is he doing grabbing her ah identity?
00:39:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In September of 1997, he set fire to the living room furniture at their cottage in Lynn of Skane. And that, of course, is in ah New Zealand.
00:40:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In January of 1999, he started to fire at a property that were they were intending to buy in Bayswater, Auckland. So
00:40:13
Caroline
Oh, why?
00:40:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
she must have really liked that house and he didn't want to try to buy it because maybe they were dealing with a realtor that he thought might catch on to him not having any money.
00:40:20
Caroline
Oh.
00:40:25
Caroline
Right.
00:40:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A month later, he set fire to an armchair in Drum's parents' house in Tatapuna. He also claimed that he had a heart attack and cancer. So this woman has been confronted with a maniac.
00:40:42
Caroline
Yeah. Oh, she's probably reeling.
00:40:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Webster made excuses about his own financial situation, why his money had not yet been transferred from Scotland to New Zealand to pay for the home in Auckland.
00:40:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The final deadline to make the payment was February 1999. That they, meaning Malcolm and Felicity, that day they meaning malcolm and felicity That day they drove together to the bank when Webster, who was driving, claimed that something was wrong with the steering wheel of the car.
00:41:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh my God, the car swerved into two lanes of traffic and back again. Felicity grabbed the steering wheel and she found that it worked.
00:41:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I love Felicity too.
00:41:32
Caroline
Wow.
00:41:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The car ended up in a ditch.
00:41:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So here you can see the pattern because right after that happened, ah
00:41:38
Caroline
wow
00:41:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
they split up and he went to Paris or I mean to Saudi Arabia. So, I mean, he's just going all over the world to find the right woman that he can rip off and murder.
00:41:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
According to Felicity's testimony later in when he was brought to court, Webster immediately got out of the car, went to the boot of the car, and repeatedly screamed at her to stay in the car, stay in the car.
00:42:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She refused to stay in the car and phoned her lawyer to drive her to the bank.
00:42:15
Caroline
for her.
00:42:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster feigned a heart attack. While he was at the hospital, Felicity Drum learned that he had cleaned out in New Zealand dollars, $140,000 of her money and their joint bank account.
00:42:34
Caroline
Oh, Felicity, you did your best, girl.
00:42:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Webster failed to appear in court
00:42:37
Caroline
I mean, I feel bad for her because she did her best. In the face of this nonsensical distractions up to and including a feigned heart attack, get yourself to the bank, girl. Because, I mean, that's the thing. You do have to assume at some point, like, I'd rather be seen as a cold-hearted bee and confirm whether or not I'm being distracted from a truth here that we were on the way to go see.
00:43:00
Caroline
You know, or I'm going to keep getting distracted by this guy. But wow, what a scene. You know what I mean? Because that is the same way he killed Claire.
00:43:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:43:08
Caroline
He's drugging this woman. I think the only reason Claire got herself caught in this mess and it was successful that time for him is because of all the drugging her. You know, she's not even conscious to get out of the car, whereas Felicity So...
00:43:24
Caroline
so
00:43:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, she would, where she just refused to drink whatever it was that he was giving to her and take the drugs that he wanted her to have.
00:43:27
Caroline
Good.
00:43:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he appeared, let me start all over with this sentence.
00:43:36
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster failed to appear in court on various charges and four warrants were issued for his arrest. He failed to appear at court and um full warrants were issued.
00:43:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know, be on the lookout and he's a wanted man. oh These warrants that were taken out in New Zealand are still alive.
00:44:03
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:44:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They're still looking for him. I think they found him later, but he they're still alive. What if he gets out of prison? So, you know, just giving you kind of a spoiler alert, but two of them are for arson.
00:44:10
Caroline
they Oh, wow.
00:44:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The third is for selling, giving, supplying, and administering a drug. And the fourth is for disabling and stupefying his victim, his then wife. The arson charges relate to a fire at the home of his then wife's parents.
00:44:30
Caroline
Okay.
00:44:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah This is classic, charming, killer Malcolm Webster. When Felicity Drum confronted Webster about his plans to kill her before he absconded from
Psychological Dynamics in Relationships
00:44:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
New Zealand, he informed her, well, you would have died happy.
00:44:57
Caroline
Oh, creepy. Oh my gosh, I would have punched him, Felicity. Or ran, one or the other. Fight or flight.
00:45:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, he does exude a lot of charm and he, everybody says that. And, you know, many people can begin to doubt themselves when they become overtaken by the fear of losing this person because they're somehow basking in his reflected glory.
00:45:25
Caroline
Right. there's I wish they would do more psychology on that because I do think that that would have an impact on domestic violence. But this idea of just like staying in something that you just got your 17th hinky feeling about, you know what i mean?
00:45:41
Caroline
Like...
00:45:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:45:42
Caroline
this spectrum of self doubt and having these internal dialogues with yourself about it, juxtapositioned against your value system and what they're telling you versus what they're doing. I mean, it's, I just wish they would do more, you know, to tell us.
00:45:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think women are especially vulnerable for many, many reasons, starting with the simplest reason of physical strength.
00:46:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:06
Caroline
Right. Yes.
00:46:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Um, but the, uh, the other problem that causes women, a biological problem that causes women to, ah see what they see, know what they know and talk themselves out of it.
00:46:27
Caroline
Yes, that's it.
00:46:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Um, and, and in my opinion, I'm giving you my opinion.
00:46:30
Caroline
That's it right there.
00:46:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't have ah ah You know, I'm not trained in ah anything that would give me any authority to say this, but I think that many women are physiologically driven to want hearth home.
00:46:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And a baby, ah family, nurturing a family.
00:46:56
Caroline
And nurture. Yeah. Something to take care of.
00:46:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this is This is the Mother Nature's way of keeping the human race going.
00:46:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:06
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so that is so powerful that when you think as a woman that you have found Mr. Right, and many times, you know, you have.
00:47:19
Caroline
yeah
00:47:23
Caroline
yeah
00:47:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But if if you if you ah fine hey you know you find Mr. Right, you get married to or in a committed relationship with Mr. Right, and these things are happening that would normally cause you suspicion, you're going to block it out.
00:47:42
Caroline
You're going to find a reason why you're doing that and shouldn't be. Yeah.
00:47:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're going to have a higher drive.
00:47:48
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so um i wish that women... when they're young teenagers and young women, would hear more about you will find the right person.
00:48:06
Caroline
yeah
00:48:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
not Be sure that you don't ah
00:48:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
make a forever promise to someone who ah you think that they are.
00:48:15
Caroline
yeah
00:48:21
Caroline
Right.
00:48:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There are these things, but I'm sure I can change that.
00:48:25
Caroline
Right. It's that when people show you who they are. Believe them.
00:48:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. So he said to her, if I had killed you, ah you would have died happy. Webster fled
Warnings and Realizations
00:48:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
New Zealand in 2000. Well, no kidding.
00:48:42
Caroline
if
00:48:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And in 2002, he began another relationship with Christina Willis. He habitually borrowed money from her without reimbursing her.
00:48:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He burnt a computer hard drive in her garden, and he told her he had cancer.
00:49:00
Caroline
i
00:49:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He persuaded Christina Willis to make a will in her name and give him power of attorney. Now, there's no evidence that he tried to kill her, but it has been speculated that he ended their relationship with because he had discovered that Simone Barnard was independently wealthy, and off he went.
00:49:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was going to kill Christina.
00:49:27
Caroline
Wow, that was the intention.
00:49:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then he found a richer woman named Simone Barnard. And remember, she was in Paris the same time as his girlfriend Brenda.
00:49:41
Caroline
Okay. Now is it Banerjee or Banarjee? Maybe it's Banarjee.
00:49:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm saying it Banerjee or it could be Banerjee. will call her Banerjee because that sounds cooler than Barnettjee.
00:49:49
Caroline
yeah Okay.
00:49:52
Caroline
yeah
00:49:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So in other words, he will drop his murder intentions ah
00:50:03
Caroline
If there are better.
00:50:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
for a better mark, for a better mark, yeah.
00:50:05
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:50:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah He met ah Simone, dated her, and told her, unfortunately, i have terminal leukemia.
00:50:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His charms really knew no bounds because Simone Ben-Augé subsequently changed her will, leaving her entire estate, which was vast, two
00:50:35
Caroline
ah
00:50:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster.
00:50:38
Caroline
Oh no.
00:50:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Say, now we're going to go back again. Remember way back in the beginning of the story, we talked about there were police and that were on their own.
00:50:49
Caroline
For Claire's case.
00:50:53
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They're tracking this man.
00:50:54
Caroline
Yes. Because it was awkward with the chief of police being his dad or whatever.
00:50:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They're tracking him.
00:50:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Uh-huh, yes, yes, yes.
00:50:59
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But these police who were working on this case on their own time presented Simone Benargett with what is called an Osman warning.
00:51:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this is something that comes from Europe. it it was It's an Osman warning about her fiance's past, in particular revealing that he had a wife and a son and all the other things that they suspected him of.
00:51:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now Simone Bonagé initially dismissed this letter she got, this Osman letter, As nonsense. Now the Osman letter is a and the the permission for law enforcement.
00:51:41
Caroline
Thank you.
00:51:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
in the year in Europe and other some other countries. I don't think we have it here in the United States. We might, I'm not sure. I wasn't able to find evidence of that. But what this is, is you can tell someone that you know something about someone that they are associated with, or that you know that someone has got their her name on a hit list.
00:52:14
Caroline
yeah like
00:52:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. So they're allowed under certain circumstances with a judge's approval to issue an Osman warning.
00:52:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We think your life is in danger.
00:52:26
Caroline
I hope we have something similar here.
00:52:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Here's what and here's here's here's why we think you're in danger.
00:52:33
Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Here's what we think we know about Malcolm Webster.
00:52:36
Caroline
Well, no, that's.
00:52:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And here's what we know about him.
00:52:38
Caroline
That's interesting because that's got to be something for the police to really consider talking about. i wonder if we don't have it here because they just simply would reach out to you. It's like a under the radar and then they would deny it later. I mean, but this idea that you are potentially, um,
00:52:56
Caroline
exposing your own investigation. You know, law enforcement investigations are exceptionally protected. um I'm assuming it's the same in Europe. You're not, it's a it's a hand in poker and you're not letting anybody see your cards.
00:53:08
Caroline
You're not going to let anybody know what you know and what you don't know. And so I could see this as being a dangerous or risky move to alert someone that, hey, you know, we have a lot of evidence that perhaps you shouldn't be hanging out with that person because they're going to kill you.
00:53:25
Caroline
You know, we're not going to tell you how we know that, but we do know that.
00:53:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She got this letter and she just dismissed it as nonsense, but after but Malcolm Webster was convicted, and he is going to be convicted, she called for him to be placed in solitary confinement forever.
00:53:43
Caroline
Oh, well, yeah, there you go.
00:53:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She later said that he is a very good actor and would give Colin Firth a run for his money. He was charming, and that's what made him so plausible.
00:53:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, he's just he's just unique, I think, in that ah ah many, many serial killers are charming. Many, many murderers are charming.
00:54:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not saying that's particularly, you know, worth crowing about. But I'm saying that the fact that he can feign grief and and touch grief in his own brain
00:54:19
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:24
Caroline
yeah
00:54:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and make the tears start running. That, to me, is just fascinating.
00:54:28
Caroline
yeah
00:54:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Anyway, a frequent sailor, Barnard has conjectured that he intended to drown her by staging a boating accident, as she later discovered that, quote, the foil on my life jacket had been punctured, and I hadn't checked my life jacket since I have sailed with him.
00:54:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she sailed with him once.
00:54:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When they arrested him, she went back and looked at that, ah her, you know, or maybe it wasn't during the arrest, maybe it was just she started to consider what they were having to say.
00:55:07
Caroline
All the things.
00:55:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the the aforementioned notice that they gave her that somebody's going to kill you
00:55:18
Caroline
Yep. Yep.
00:55:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, she went back and found that it had been punctured. Everybody else's life jackets were fine. So she had her own, and she checked it, and it was rigged.
00:55:28
Caroline
Oh, Yeah. yeah
00:55:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I have a pretty much no doubt, she says, that the boat was the way that I was going to go.
00:55:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So... In 2007, Simone Barnard's house where she lived with Malcolm Webster was searched by police after they received information that Webster had embezzled funds from an angling club.
00:55:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, I want to explain this angling club. You know there are people who get together in Scotland, other places I'm sure,
00:56:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
where they have a somebody's cabin now is being used as a club headquarters, and they pay money into the angling club
Re-examination and Arrest
00:56:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
of certain waterways, and they provide fish in those waterways using the money, and they do public outreach about fishing, and they collect fees, people who want to come and fish on that property, and so forth and so on.
00:56:35
Caroline
Okay. Okay.
00:56:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it's ah it's a club, but it has money.
00:56:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah And the police
00:56:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
found in Simone Barnager's house, where he was staying, of course, ah and found that he had been embezzling these funds.
00:56:59
Caroline
Okay.
00:57:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
During the search, the police seized a stolen laptop and an unlicensed gun. which Webster claimed was an antique. An investigation into Webster called Operation Field was launched in 2008. The police subsequently announced that they were reexamining Claire Morris's death.
00:57:24
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:57:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because now they had his laptop.
00:57:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They had this gun. They had the testimony of Simone Barnager about her now realization that he was planning to throw her into the Atlantic, or whatever the ocean is over there by New Zealand.
00:57:41
Caroline
Yeah, the punctured life jacket.
00:57:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's the Atlantic. Anyway.
00:57:47
Caroline
Maybe the Indian. I don't know.
00:57:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. At the same time, the New Zealand police began to re-examine the second crash that involved Felicity.
00:57:58
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:57:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And remember, she's the one who grabbed the wheel.
00:58:01
Caroline
yeah
00:58:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When he said, oh my God, the wheel is not, you know, it's broken. oh my God, we're going into these lanes of traffic. Oh my God, we're going be in a ditch. And then he said, whatever you do when he got in the ditch, whatever you do, don't get out of the car.
00:58:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because he was going to get the petrol out of the car.
00:58:18
Caroline
right
00:58:21
Caroline
That's right.
00:58:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So.
00:58:22
Caroline
And dowser. Don't worry about the doused gasoline on your head. Yeah, I don't know how he was going to see that one through.
00:58:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, they began re-examining the second crash that involved Felicity, where he tried to say the steering wheel was not working, but it worked when she commandeered it from him. Oh, my God, that was in the police report. It was like, you know, ha-ha.
00:58:43
Caroline
Hello. Hello.
00:58:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was consequently charged by the Sheriff of Aberdeen in 2009 for the murder of Claire Morris, the attempted murder of Felicity Drum, and attempted to bigamously marry Simone Bonnerget to gain access to her estate.
00:59:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The investigation into Webster took five years and involved 1,000
Conviction and Life Imprisonment
00:59:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
people being interviewed. So, because, I mean, his con was, you know, it wasn't a long con. It was a wide con.
00:59:21
Caroline
Right.
00:59:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was convicted at the High Court of Justice Seary in like Glasgow in Scotland on 19th of May, 2011, after the longest ever criminal trial in Scotland with a single accused.
00:59:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was found guilty by a jury of nine women and six men. Some of the verdicts delivered by the jury were unanimous, and some were by a majority.
00:59:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Derek Og QC led the prosecution. Webster was sentenced to life imprisonment on the 5th of July, 2011, with a minimum sentence of 30 years.
01:00:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was consequently removed from the nursing registry. Well, I would hope so
01:00:14
Caroline
Yeah, thank God.
01:00:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He reportedly told inmates that he expects to die in prison and has been described by one inmate as being really boring.
01:00:27
Caroline
Hey, all right.
01:00:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, without women to prey upon, ho hum.
01:00:32
Caroline
It's probably pretty boring lifestyle.
01:00:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was reported in 2011 that Webster had been attacked by another inmate with a metal pole. Following further attacks, Webster repeatedly refused to shower for months on end and ultimately hired a convicted child molester to protect him.
01:00:49
Caroline
Ooh.
01:00:55
Caroline
Well, that's pretty pretty low to be fallen.
01:01:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you're below the child molester.
01:01:04
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, you're looking to him for help? Yeah. oh
01:01:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, is that Freudian? Because he's like, I'm a child. Please let me tell you about my childhood.
01:01:15
Caroline
Yeah, right. like It seems fitting, at least.
01:01:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Only you can molest me while you're protecting me from these other people.
01:01:22
Caroline
Right.
01:01:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In December 2013, the appeal courts quashed his convictions on the two minor charges of fire raising, but upheld the rest of his convictions.
01:01:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Webster appealed again, but dropped that appeal in March of 2014. On September 9th, 2014, Webster asked the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission to review his conviction and his sentence.
01:01:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His request was granted, and this decision was criticized by Peter Morris, the brother of Webster's first wife, whose murder had been he had been convicted of.
01:02:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He said, why the hell are they wasting time on a review? Webster has been found guilty in a court, and in Scotland's three most senior judges confirmed the verdict at the appeal stage.
01:02:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What is wrong with the Scottish criminal justice system? How many opportunities do you give someone to appeal?
01:02:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You go, Peter. I'm on your side, Peter.
01:02:31
Caroline
I agree. i mean, you know, one appeal. That's it.
01:02:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Peter claims that he wrote to Webster, asking him to elaborate on his alleged innocence. But Webster declined to comment.
01:02:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In February 2016, Webster's review was rejected.
01:02:53
Caroline
Good.
01:02:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A spokesperson stated, quote, the commission's review has concluded and this case has not been referred to the high court. You know very antiseptic language, but you know, that behind the scenes, I'm thinking they're saying, are you kidding me?
01:03:09
Caroline
Yeah, right. I know sometimes I like it when I can read the real writing behind the professional writing.
01:03:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, listeners, in case you do not loathe and detest this man, if you can call him that, um Webster, there's a sad there's a sad footnote that I did not include in our story because it it didn't really help the storyline to know this part, but I do want our listeners to know.
01:03:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah so here it is. ah footnote, according to me, but it's still very, very real and very, very sad. When he was 30 years old, Webster worked in a hospital in Abu Dhabi, United ah Arabic Empire or whatever the UAE state, Emirates,
01:04:05
Caroline
Emirates. Emirates. I'm sure they toyed with Empire, but...
01:04:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
m airates they Emirates, the Emirates. So he was 30. He's working in a hospital called Tawam Hospital in the children's ward. I'm scared already.
01:04:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Within six months, he was forced to resign following an investigation into the deaths of three children under his care. All three children had been under six years old.
01:04:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All three children had died of cardiac failure, hugely unusual for children that age. Due to Islamic culture forbidding postmortems and favoring quick burials, there was insufficient evidence for a police investigation.
01:04:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His former co-worker girlfriend, Beth Brown, had stated that Webster's supervisor had discovered that he had been injecting himself with insulin and they formed the opinion that he had killed the children with insulin injections.
01:05:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is reputed that his father used his influence to get his son out of that country. And of course, Malcolm Webster and his father later denied all of these allegations.
Concluding Reflections and Credits
01:05:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But this is who we're dealing with. And I say that as we end our episode, Caroline. I'm not just talking about Malcolm.
01:05:32
Caroline
Right.
01:05:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm talking about that father of his.
01:05:35
Caroline
Yes.
01:05:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, if you're going to date someone and get serious and marry someone, would you please go meet the family and do a background check?
01:05:45
Caroline
Yes. And don't let things like, yeah, and don't let things like law enforcement or being a part of the military, being a part of the clergy, that's not a sticker of vetting.
01:05:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Do a background check.
01:05:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, don't go by superficial.
01:05:59
Caroline
Yeah.
01:05:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Use, you know, the myriad of tools that women have, men too, on the dating scene to do a thorough background check, not just of the person, but of the family if you can.
01:06:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Caroline, ah goodbye to Malcolm. Today's episode was researched, written, and narrated by Bridget and Caroline. produced by Andy. Our research is solely based on public domain documents, including legal documents, articles, and books.
01:06:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Episodes are aired every other week. If you like us, please subscribe. Give us a five-star review. Tell your friends about us in person or social media, and all of that helps us find new listeners.
01:06:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And we really appreciate you. Am I missing anything? Oh, yeah. Don't forget. to live and let live. Bye-bye, Caroline.
01:06:58
Caroline
Bye-bye.