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Mark Hacking LIar and Killer
93 Plays2 months ago
A kid gets attention from lies, keeps lying, gets addicted to lying and lives to tell lies. He marries and fakes college, gradution, and acceptance to medical school. His wife calls him out on it and loves him anyway. What is his reaction?
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hearth Home and Homicide'
00:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello listeners and welcome. I'm Bridges.
00:00:04
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I research and narrate each story. Andy is our producer.
Ripple Effects of Family Murders
00:00:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline and I try to figure out what is going on with this family at the center of the case. We do know that the ripple effect of family murder never ends.
00:00:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And we see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma. So listener discretion is advised.
Case Focus: Laurie and Mark Hacking
00:00:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, Caroline, today we're going to Salt Lake City, Utah, where Laurie Hacking was murdered by her husband, Mark Hacking, who was a lifelong liar and con artist.
00:00:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
who murdered her in the night between July 18th and 19th, 2004. four You know, I've been to Salt Lake City, Utah, and I can tell you that it it is very, very, very impressive to me how wide and how straight the streets are.
00:01:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I never understood how how do you build a city with this wide of the streets?
Historical Context: Salt Lake City Streets
00:01:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, when the Mormons were coming over the Rockies to settle in Utah, ah they deliberately had the streets very, very wide, wide enough so that the biggest wagons hauling the biggest supplies to their new encampment that became Salt Lake City um could go all the way down the street and turn around in the street and go the other way without having to do a lot of backing up and backing all the, you know, the five point turns that you have to make.
00:02:00
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:02:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I just feel like, you know, What kind of organization does it take to get that going? And that's one of the things that I learned about the Mormons, especially the early Mormons who were outcasts from their society back east.
00:02:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They were very deliberate planners.
00:02:27
Caroline
Well, that's cool.
00:02:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, they believed in the house we lived in in Idaho, Caroline, had a full basement house. designed exclusively for the preservation of food for two years.
00:02:39
Caroline
I remember that. That was one of my favorite homes.
00:02:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah, mine too.
00:02:42
Caroline
There was such an elegant, like, Victorian nature to that home because it was all those levels. And you're right. I remember all that storage. That was, like, built-in storage.
00:02:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, and the shelves, and they had a sink down there where you could cut up all the fruit.
00:02:53
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:02:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and Oh, my God, it was heaven.
00:02:57
Caroline
It was awesome. Yeah.
00:02:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, anyway, that's what I know about the Mormons. That's a positive thing I want to say to sort of, you know, soften the blow of this idiot madman that she married who murdered her.
Unraveling of Mark's Lies
00:03:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, again, you know, Mark was just a lifelong liar, which I want to talk about.
00:03:15
Caroline
Thank you.
00:03:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had no acquaintance with the truth. He murdered his 27-year-old Lori K. Suarez Hacking when she discovered his lies about being a student in medical school in North Carolina.
00:03:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And we'll get into that because that's just such a, that's a horse lie, meaning big as a horse. The last time Laurie was seen alive in public was on the night of July 18, 2004, when her husband, Mark Hacking, dropped by a convenience store with her in Salt Lake City, Utah, where they lived.
00:03:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she was on camera that night at the convenience store, and the next morning, all hell broke loose when Mark tried to pretend like she was missing.
00:03:59
Caroline
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:04:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Where could she be? Now, i really want to talk about Laurie because I just felt like she had the face of an angel and pretty, pretty, very curly, long brown hair and just sparkling dancing eyes.
00:04:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what I remember about the videos and the pictures that I saw of Laurie hacking as time has gone by. And I do remember this murder, and I remember...
00:04:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
just believing that some some devil in disguise picked her up when she was jogging and, you know, kidnapped her.
00:04:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what I thought. I did not know it was her husband who was out there pleading for her return.
00:04:40
Caroline
yeah
00:04:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So let's talk about Lori. Lori was the adopted daughter of Thelma and Eduardo Suarez, formerly of Fullerton, California. She was adopted.
00:04:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
at just a few days old, along with a baby boy. Eraldo Suarez was a Spanish and Portuguese teacher in Sunny Hills High School there in aldoot Fullerton, California, excuse me and he was a native of Brazil.
Laurie's Life and Family
00:05:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He met Thelma when they both served as missionaries for the Church of lee ah church of Latter-day Saints, otherwise known as the Mormons.
00:05:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Rio de Janeiro is where he was born. Laurie's parents divorced in 1987, and Thelma, Laurie's mother, and Laurie moved to Orem, Utah, the following year.
00:05:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, Utah is the home of the Mormon church, so they probably were seeking some ah comfort and and a community is what I'm thinking after the divorce in Aurum.
00:05:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:05:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Aurum is just 40 miles away from Salt Lake City, so it's not like they, you know, crossed the country. they
00:05:59
Caroline
yeah
00:06:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They were there already, and they just moved to a different house.
00:06:01
Caroline
Almost. It's like a suburb of Salt Lake City.
00:06:05
Caroline
Yeah. yeah
00:06:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely, yeah.
00:06:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Laurie met Mark Hacking when she and Mark both attended Aurum High School, about 40 miles, as I said, south of Salt Lake City. Laurie was a strong and beautiful girl. She was very athletic and intelligent.
00:06:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was devoted to her mother and the LDS church. That was her life.
00:06:29
Caroline
Right.
00:06:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That was her life. She wasn't playing any games. She wasn't trying to be a Hollywood star.
00:06:33
Caroline
right
00:06:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She wanted a simple life of love and devotion to family and her church. Laurie liked it that Mark was funny and clever all the time throughout high school. and She was drawn to him.
00:06:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he was just a charismatic and strong. He was an LDS member also. And she believed that he wanted all the things that she, Laurie Hacking, wanted with all of her heart.
00:07:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he convinced her that that was true. She wanted a family of her own. And they would live a clean family life with the LDS community alongside them.
00:07:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That was the dream. Her family would make happy memories, this family that she's creating, with Mark.
00:07:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she wanted that forever family that never stops loving. So, remember, her mother and father had been divorced.
00:07:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, she's just thinking, well, that was never going to happen to me and you, Mark, is it? Oh, no, that's never going to happen.
00:07:38
Caroline
I mean, that's a common, I think that's a common dream to want family, love.
00:07:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, absolutely.
00:07:43
Caroline
And you go looking at it or for it in someone who you know is a lot like you, you know?
00:07:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. if you have If you have a lot in common, if you're drawn to that person. And she was very comfortable with Mark. She'd known him all through high school. And no doubt she poured her heart out to him.
00:07:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he poured his lying heart out to her.
00:08:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Laurie was very much a serious and playful person at the same time. After high school, she worked while Mark went to school, college. she He wanted to be a doctor.
00:08:19
Caroline
Oh.
00:08:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, he was smart enough to be a doctor.
00:08:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was reliable at work where she looked up. She was looked up to as an assistant to a stockbroker. Now, one of my closest friends' daughter works as an associate in the for a stock program. That is hard work, but it's work with people. And when you're good with people,
00:08:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you can follow all of the science behind the flow of money and economics and so forth.
00:08:50
Caroline
Yeah. Hmm.
00:08:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's a great job. And it's it's a it's a dignified job. And and ah certainly Laurie was, you know, loved with what they did not know was that Laurie was five weeks pregnant.
00:09:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she was just they did they did see that she was devoted to the person who killed her. But, you know, they they didn't know that she had become pregnant.
00:09:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What they knew was that she was going to be leaving that job because she was going to be moving with Mark to North Carolina where he was going to go to medical school.
00:09:28
Caroline
Okay.
Complications of Laurie's Pregnancy
00:09:29
Caroline
Okay. Yeah.
00:09:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that's the that's what's unraveling here.
00:09:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But they loved her, and she was part of that community where she worked at Wells Fargo. So, you know, i suppose we have to talk about Mark Hacking and the murder of Laurie. I don't want to.
00:09:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In this case, it's very difficult.
00:09:49
Caroline
yeah
00:09:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'll just say that Mark was a good looking, fun loving, sweet, adorable guy on the outside. And I can say that with personal authority because I saw him on TV and I thought there's no way this man is a killer.
00:10:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No way.
00:10:08
Caroline
and Which is, I mean, and that even at that time, you were always you always had sort of an inkling about, you know, Agatha Christie, the murder mysteries. Like, you were you were always, you know, we watched Murder, She Wrote in the eighty s Like, it was just unselfly mysteries, all of it.
00:10:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah Oh, yeah. Oh, murder, murder. And i did think I had an eye for who was dangerous and who was not.
00:10:23
Caroline
Right.
00:10:27
Caroline
Right.
00:10:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What a fool I was. I mean, you know.
00:10:29
Caroline
Well, I mean, it just, yeah, it just goes to show this is the scariest part about human beings, you know?
00:10:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, yes. Well, this was 21 years ago.
00:10:39
Caroline
Yep.
00:10:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i wasn't an idiot still, but I was not on my way to not so idiotic about murder. perpetrators. So, you know, here we have a man who can emulate.
00:10:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's not like, you know, that idiot that just got sentenced to four consecutive life sentences where, you know, you can look at him for two seconds and know that he's got dead eyes.
00:11:00
Caroline
Yeah. In Idaho. Yeah.
00:11:08
Caroline
Psycho. Yeah.
00:11:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, that is not Mark. Mark did not have dead eyes.
00:11:11
Caroline
Right.
00:11:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was a normal-looking person, whatever that means. So he was perfect, really, except for the murder part. And he was also, behind those murders, was a long history of habitual lying.
00:11:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that habitual lying became more important to him than his wife and the child that they were going to bring into this world. And when I say habitual, I mean addicted.
00:11:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean that the same addiction that people can get with drugs, smoking, gambling, alcohol, cheating, shopping, us ah eating, all of the above, all of the above.
00:11:43
Caroline
ah
00:11:51
Caroline
shopping eating all of it yeah
00:11:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's all you you feed a habit until it is running your life.
00:12:03
Caroline
Yes, yep.
00:12:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that was what had um going on with Mark Hacking.
Police Investigation and Uncovering the Truth
00:12:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
On the morning after the last sighting of Mark and Lori, remember in the supermarket or ah the quickie mart or whatever, Mark woke up and his wife was not in bed. Now I'm pretending that he doesn't know what has happened to her, but this was his story.
00:12:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he woke up and she was not in bed and he thought, you know, she was she went jogging and and so forth. But then he found out that she never showed up for work.
00:12:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and never came home after work. So what did he do?
00:12:42
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:12:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He called the police. Now, I can remember pleading for his wife's safe return on network TV. This handsome, normal-looking guy on his way to medical school, coming from a family of medical doctors and medical professionals, and there were some TV ah blips where they were with him during the search.
00:13:10
Caroline
so
00:13:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, they were all down where she would have been jogging.
00:13:11
Caroline
yeah
00:13:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the nation was riveted to this guy, Mark, who wanted his wife back sake safe and sound. And he was not blubbering.
00:13:24
Caroline
Right.
00:13:24
Caroline
OK. Yeah.
00:13:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was felt like he looked deflated and worried.
00:13:29
Caroline
yeah
00:13:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, what a chameleon.
00:13:32
Caroline
I was just going to say, because, you know, this kind of speaks also to the, ah when we have nationwide sort of stories going viral nationwide, right? Like Petito, Gabby Petito, like these things.
00:13:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:13:45
Caroline
It is typically the attractive, ah you know, members of our community and they're doing the archetypal success things within the community, having a family, going to medical school. I mean, it's,
00:13:57
Caroline
That is the kind of thing that's going to catch the heartstrings of the community around you and the community nationally because it is what we're all striving for, that a dream of a family, the dream of success. like So when you see a person on the screen that is able to portray that for you, like to pull on that one of your heartstrings, which is a common string in all of our hearts, that's well, yeah, you're going to start to fall under the spell, right?
00:14:24
Caroline
I mean, that i could I could easily see that happening. i don't I don't know what this man looks like, thankfully, but, you know, that tends to happen with TV.
00:14:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, I, yeah, I mean, you know, i was fooled.
00:14:33
Caroline
If they're...
00:14:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'll tell you that.
00:14:38
Caroline
yeah
00:14:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The other thing about it is that what we generally see on network news is more white people.
00:14:47
Caroline
Yep, yeah.
00:14:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
who have befallen something like this, we see the wealthy, the prominent people, and it becomes a real new story, those three words in quotes.
00:14:53
Caroline
Yep, yes.
00:15:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um I was probably, like everybody else, maybe not everybody, but I was certainly guilty of thinking that it was only white women who these things were happening to.
00:15:14
Caroline
ah Right, it's an inference, right?
00:15:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I really was. And, I mean, you know, and we've come ways.
00:15:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I would say that we've come a ways on a long, long journey ahead of us. For example, tribal women who disappear out by the score every year.
00:15:29
Caroline
and Oh.
00:15:34
Caroline
I mean, and since pre-1970s that's been happening to them, so yeah.
00:15:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, yes. So I digress. I don't mean to do that. But, yeah, he was very, very, very, very very
00:15:42
Caroline
Me neither, sorry.
00:15:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Believable, and the nation was riveted, and it was just like Gabby Petito. Everybody was watching.
00:15:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
have they Have they found her yet? Have they found her yet?
00:15:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
As a massive search was underway, the worried facade mo Mark had presented to the world via the media began to crumble behind the scenes.
00:16:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mark had been deceiving everyone in his life, including his wife, about being accepted to this medical school in North Carolina and about to attend that school and ah that they were going to move to that place so that he could be at that school.
00:16:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Those working the case believed Mark Hacking chose rather than come clean about these lies to his wife, Mark killed his wife, Lori, in a last-ditch effort to cover up his lies.
00:16:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you know, the thing about addicted to lies your whole life person, I think, is that they have learned how to believe their own lies the minute that it comes out of their mouth.
00:16:59
Caroline
Yes. and And we know that the way that the brain works is that the brain is not a hard sell on that as a method for survival.
00:17:07
Caroline
Yeah, I'll lie to you. Hell yeah. That's a great story. i mean. Yeah.
00:17:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:17:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it In simple terms, it's like, you know, if I were to go to, i you know, I don't go to chain restaurants anymore for food, but let's and but I do have cravings for it every now and then.
00:17:24
Caroline
yeah
00:17:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it's almost like if I went to this, um we'll say McDonald's, and I had, you know, I'm not even going to say the words, but all the stuff.
00:17:34
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All the good stuff.
00:17:36
Caroline
All the stuff we know about.
00:17:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I had all that in my mind is that nobody has to know that I did this. And not only that, but it's never going to happen again. That is what goes through the mind.
00:17:45
Caroline
oh
00:17:47
Caroline
yes.
00:17:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I'm speaking on behalf of just me. And I am projecting that.
00:17:52
Caroline
I relate though.
00:17:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i have I'm projecting that on Bark Hacking. He really believes she's missing at this point.
00:18:01
Caroline
ah you're You're right, though, because there has to be an element of that present in the in the psychology of just the way we know things work. Like, I literally just read another article about how to take a good picture, and it says you have to smile naturally, and to do that, you have to think of something that makes you naturally laugh or smile.
00:18:17
Caroline
So you're right, I think, that there had to have been some manipulation within his own brain to allow him to be this convincing at the time.
00:18:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, I know. Millions of people couldn't believe that he was capable of murder.
00:18:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
based on his appearance and his emotional pleas to help me find my wife.
00:18:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She doesn't deserve this, all of these things. He wasn't whimpering over the top drama. he was It was genuine appearing. On July 19, 2004,
00:18:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Mark Hacking contacted Salt Lake City Police at 10.07 a.m. to say that his wife, Laurie Hacking, had not returned from jogging earlier that morning. We already know that.
00:19:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He phoned them again, though, at 10.46 to report he'd found Laurie's car parked near the canyon where she had gone running.
00:19:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A search began with numerous volunteers stepping in to help. When I say numerous, I mean hundreds of people who didn't even know him. But they all, you know, rushed to the scene.
00:19:25
Caroline
Well, they were as, yeah, they were as compelled as you were when they saw him on the TV.
00:19:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. And it's a community.
00:19:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is a community of people who share a ah faith community.
00:19:41
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:19:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So there's going to be a lot of people showing up for that reason.
00:19:44
Caroline
Stronger.
00:19:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He seemed very grateful for this assistance in a humble way. As he spoke in front of the television cameras that day, hook, and me like like you know hook line, and sinker, I bought it.
00:19:57
Caroline
He gotcha.
00:20:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
For those who knew the Mormon couple, there was no reason to believe that Mark had any involvement in his wife's disappearance. The two who were wed in 1999 appeared to have a happy marriage.
00:20:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the Family had been told Laurie was five weeks present privately. So the family of Laurie had been told that, you know, and Mark, that that she was pregnant shortly but before she went missing.
00:20:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that, you know, they were but out there searching for her and so worried that something had happened to her and the baby.
00:20:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She had given notice to Wells Fargo, where she worked, as a stockbroker's assistant, and her last day at work was just a couple of weeks away. The couple planned to move so Mark could attend the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill School of Medicine.
00:20:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is one of the best schools of medicine in the country.
00:20:56
Caroline
well
00:20:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um we'll talk more about, you know, how he got into that school. Not so anyway.
00:21:03
Caroline
I was just going to say, he probably just was like, what's the top school? Okay, I'll say I'm going to that one. I mean, you know.
00:21:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, it' it's better that it's better than that, Caroline. I mean, it's it's meaner, it's awfuler than that, so buckle up. Police soon saw Mark as a highly potential suspect.
00:21:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In between his two calls to them, he'd said he was trying to find his wife, and instead, investigators learned he'd been buying a new mattress.
00:21:32
Caroline
o
00:21:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you're Let's just see, does this add up? Your wife is missing and she you found her car where she went missing, but you can't find her?
00:21:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's been abducted? Oh my God.
00:21:47
Caroline
yeah.
00:21:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
is she in ah Is she in a culvert? Where is she? Where is she? Where is she? Oh, I got to go get a new mattress.
00:21:54
Caroline
Yeah, like that's, I mean, it's as shocking as like we know with the Watts case, like when you walk in on the, you see on the police cam video, you walk in and the mattress has no sheet on it. Everybody was like, oh, ah hello like problematic.
00:22:09
Caroline
You know, I mean, you don't do stuff with a bed if you didn't murder people.
00:22:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. And, you know, ah why would you buy a new mattress when you're about to cross the country?
00:22:21
Caroline
I mean, really, it's probably because he got all the blood on the one mattress from killing his wife. I mean, honestly, it's just.
00:22:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's, of course, what the police thought. And so then they got a search warrant based on that information. They got a search warrant.
00:22:33
Caroline
Well, yep.
00:22:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They went into his house, his apartment, and found that here's Laurie's purse, here's her wallet, and it's got her blood on it.
00:22:43
Caroline
Oh, my God.
00:22:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In addition, Caroline, this is just the day after she went missing. I mean, they're looking for her in the park. they She was just on videotape last night.
00:22:54
Caroline
Right.
00:22:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is the same day.
00:22:56
Caroline
And then Mark has already, has Mark gotten on TV yet? Or is he, this is already?
00:22:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, yes, he'd been on TV.
00:23:01
Caroline
Dang, he's fast.
00:23:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, but he had to run off to the mattress store. You know, I don't know if he, I might have that wrong.
00:23:06
Caroline
I would.
00:23:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because he he called them in the morning.
00:23:11
Caroline
Yes.
00:23:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the second call was at the mattress store. So had he been seen on camera yet?
00:23:15
Caroline
Oh, okay.
00:23:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not sure.
00:23:19
Caroline
Okay. Cause I wonder if the, police you know, the police, like, I think they get,
00:23:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:23
Caroline
there's probably a nerve that gets struck when perpetrators do this. You know, they try to pull the wool over the police eyes right away. But I also think the police really appreciate these kind of like, you know, self-aggrandizing types of people because then they go out there on TV and now everything's captured and I get to analyze every single move you just made and every single word you just said, you know, so it is kind of helpful.
00:23:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mm-hmm. Right.
00:23:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
right can you see Can you imagine that bulletin board or the chalkboard or the or the the magnetic board that police use and they have a timeline? And number one, called us.
00:24:00
Caroline
Right.
00:24:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Number two, search began.
00:24:03
Caroline
Hot mattress.
00:24:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Number three, he found his car. Number four, he called us again. Turns out he was at the mattress store buying a new mattress.
00:24:11
Caroline
What the heck?
00:24:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Uh-huh. Then they found all this stuff at his house, her stuff, as well as a hunting knife with blood on it.
00:24:20
Caroline
Oh, Jesus.
00:24:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
God. In addition, the driver's seat in Laurie's car had been adjusted for someone much taller than her, and there was blood in the back seat of the vehicle.
00:24:29
Caroline
Oh.
00:24:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Why didn't he just write a short story about what he did to her and post it on the internet? I mean, i don't know.
00:24:39
Caroline
Right? Yeah.
00:24:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what does this prolific liar and now murderer do to get out of this net closing in on him? Well, in the early ah morning hours of July 20th, this is the second day, right?
00:24:57
Caroline
yeah
00:24:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he's just He just got to the Barton-Bowder car. And now the next day, in the early morning hours, after the search had begun, police received a disturbance call that Mark Hacking was running around outside a hotel wearing nothing but his sandals.
00:25:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was naked.
00:25:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then he was admitted to a psychiatric facility. Now, you know, everybody instantly thought, oh, this poor lost man, because we did not know what the police knew at that time.
00:25:36
Caroline
yeah
00:25:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This poor guy, he's gone insane because he misses his wife. That's what was thinking.
00:25:43
Caroline
Well, yeah, and it's easy because the um news cycle tends to move so quickly, even in 2004 it did. And so you pick up whatever narrative you feel like has been put down and you run with that until there's a shift in the narrative and then you focus on that.
00:25:59
Caroline
on And so I could see how everything now is just gonna go in the category of this poor man, this poor man, this poor man, running around naked with sandals on is a little bit off.
00:26:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This poor man.
00:26:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is off, however, one of my favorite people on the internet with her own podcast, former FBI profiler Candace DeLong. Her podcast is...
00:26:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um ah explains why serial killers do what they do, why killers do what they do, and, you know, what to look for and all this stuff.
00:26:30
Caroline
Oh, OK. Yeah.
00:26:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, like her, Candace DeLong, and she says he kept his shoes on, his sandals. That's not generally something that we see in someone who is truly psychotic.
00:26:50
Caroline
That makes sense. Yeah.
Mark's Confession and Arrest
00:26:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Mark Hacking's lies to Laurie and family are about to be revealed. The search for Laurie continued, but by July 21st, so three days later, Mark and Laurie's families learned that Mark had not been accepted to the medical school in North Carolina and had also lied about graduating from the University of Utah in 2004.
00:27:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In fact, he had dropped out in 2002.
00:27:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, he had had graduation parties. He had had all of these things.
00:27:30
Caroline
so
00:27:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He pretended for two years, two years, poor Poor Lori is sweating away at Wells Fargo, trying to earn a living for both of them, but he is going to go to medical school and this will all be worthwhile.
00:27:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was pretending to attend classes, study textbooks. He even wrote term papers.
00:27:53
Caroline
What the hell?
00:27:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, police found all of that in his home.
00:27:57
Caroline
What the hell? That's pretty far. I mean, that's pushing it to a degree that seems weird.
00:28:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, this is this is why I think he's been lying his whole life, which I'll get into.
00:28:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not just saying that about him. You know, there's evidence that he, you know, he was a consummate liar, but he was also addicted to lying.
00:28:18
Caroline
Right.
00:28:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I believe he really believed his lies, so he acted them out.
00:28:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I do.
00:28:23
Caroline
I genuinely believe that's true um affliction as well that we don't focus on.
00:28:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Right. It's not insanity legally.
00:28:32
Caroline
No, but it's lying, which is, yeah.
00:28:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it'll get you one, you know, one flying over the cuckoo. So, yeah. um So anyway, his family found this out.
00:28:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had also traveled across the country many times to fake interviews at different medical schools.
00:28:53
Caroline
I mean, he literally purchased the tickets to go to these places.
00:28:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep. I'm sure his family helped him out.
00:28:58
Caroline
That's crazy. I mean, that's crazy.
00:29:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm sure they did.
00:29:01
Caroline
Why wouldn't you, why like, why why not fake a flight number? Why not bla fake up and to go stay at a local hotel or something? I don't know. This weird to me.
00:29:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He traveled across country is what, you know, is in all of the news articles about this story.
00:29:16
Caroline
Yeah. That's just, that's committed, I guess.
00:29:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's a lot here to digest, Caroline.
00:29:21
Caroline
yeah I'm struggling.
00:29:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's like you're watching a aliens as they come down from your, up to that point, just suspicious skies.
00:29:31
Caroline
Yeah, I don't get it. Yeah.
00:29:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now we know that there are aliens. And they're landing right in front of us, and we can't hardly believe it. That's my take on this story.
00:29:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Their family members were stunned. Stunned. Education was highly valued in Mark's family of origin. His father was a pediatrician, highly regarded.
00:29:58
Caroline
media
00:29:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His mother was a nurse, highly respected, appreciated.
00:30:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His brothers all had excelled in school and had very good careers in science, and no one
00:30:12
Caroline
well
00:30:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No one expected little Mark to lie like this about his educational path. Yet Dr. Kathy Yates, a forensic psychiatrist, says it wasn't surprising to learn about Mark's ability to dupe those closest to him.
00:30:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She says he was able to deceive with such detailed accuracy in terms of creating a persona. that he wanted everyone to believe, and that that alone, these this this persona ability, this this these detailed accuracies, tell me, said Yates, that he is very, very bright.
00:31:00
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:31:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She says if somebody is clever and crosses every t dots every eye and they are in appearingly healthy relationships with people,
00:31:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it would be very hard for those closest to them to not be deceived. So that made me feel better for thinking that he was an innocent, cute guy.
00:31:18
Caroline
Yeah, I guess that's true. Yeah.
00:31:24
Caroline
Well, I mean, and this is this is that interesting sort of framing where, you know, people who maybe are stealing their hand to mouth and then they get caught and and everyone wants to just say like, you're just this low life.
00:31:41
Caroline
Actually, no, they're a human in survival, right? And so what that, that it's like what she's saying where he's bright. I mean, obviously to create this level of detail, to have an understanding of what that life might look like and need to sound like, you do have to have a sense of intelligence, a real wiseness to, you know, reading the room, quote unquote, which is something a lot of people don't know how to do.
00:32:03
Caroline
But I just think, That makes this all really, really hard in terms of like human relations and like trying to keep yourself around only safe humans, right? Which is my objective here in looking at all of this stuff.
00:32:17
Caroline
It's hard because the people who are most dangerous are going to be probably the smartest on how to look the least dangerous, right?
00:32:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
00:32:26
Caroline
Oh,
00:32:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A wolf in sheep's clothing.
00:32:29
Caroline
woof.
00:32:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what he was. I think you mean, oh, yeah.
00:32:34
Caroline
yeah
00:32:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway, yeah.
00:32:36
Caroline
ah well who
00:32:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah word All I can say is I feel vindicated that, you know, ah we can expect to fall for a mastermind wolf in sheep's clothing.
00:32:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They even wrote a book about it.
00:32:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Poor little Red Riding Hood.
00:32:57
Caroline
It's got staying power, that story. Yeah.
00:33:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It really does. Who among us has not been in her situation? However, Mark's deception started to unravel a few days before Laurie went missing. On Friday, July 16th, Laurie called Mark's Medical School in North Carolina to ask about financial aid, probably because she was pregnant.
00:33:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At that point, she was told that he had not enrolled in medical school and, in fact, had not even applied. We've never heard of him.
00:33:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Coworkers that when she was on the phone with this call, with this university, saw her in tears before she left work early that day.
00:33:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But at her going-away party that night, which she attended with Mark, she seemed contented once more. Now, to me, this looks like Mark was trying to teach Laurie how to be false, and she was so shocked and frightened, she went along with the happy face, and it makes me sad and angry, and I'm just guessing.
00:34:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I don't think Laurie had a lying bone in her body. I don't. I think that she did think highly of her friends and didn't want to spoil the party that they threw for them.
00:34:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, that's what I was thinking, but it was later revealed
00:34:19
Caroline
Oh no.
00:34:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that Laurie's concerns had been allied that evening after Mark told her a computer problem at the school was to blame for not including him on its incoming student roster.
00:34:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Laurie then left a message for the school administrator stay stating that her husband had straightened everything out.
00:34:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because she contacted the school after 5 p.m. on the East Coast, no one would hear her message until Monday when Lori was already dead.
00:34:59
Caroline
So he did.
00:35:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Isn't that the saddest thing?
00:35:00
Caroline
So really, that is that is a good indicator that the catalyst for her being murdered by him was that she was reaching this precipice of, you know, no more lies. She was going to find out.
00:35:12
Caroline
She was going to find out. She probably even told him or maybe he found out that she made this follow up call saying, oh, I've worked it all out. Now I know that it's, your you know, your error or whatever. He maybe just felt like the corner I'm painted in is now my feet are coated in paint. I mean, he just it's the end, you know.
00:35:29
Caroline
Can't lie to her anymore.
00:35:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's the end. And also police revealed that they had found when they did the search warrant in his home, in his apartment, and they found, you know, a bloody, you know, so mess in the bedroom and the new mattress sitting there over, you know, the blood all over the floor and that they had found all of this stuff when they looked, when they got the search warrant.
00:35:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:35:49
Caroline
Oh my God.
00:35:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um they also found letters that she had written to him about lies that she had been telling him all along about little things. And that she wrote him a letter saying, we have got to get you the help you need to stop this lying or ah we cannot continue to be together.
00:36:13
Caroline
So for her, it was coming to this place of like, hey, I see what's going on here and no more. And that could have even been why she was calling. the You know, she was maybe developing her own coping strategies around knowing her husband's a perpetual liar, verifying with phone calls to people, you know.
00:36:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:36:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She just wants to believe him so bad.
00:36:29
Caroline
It's
00:36:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This lady is pregnant. This is her loving husband. She does not want the humiliation.
00:36:33
Caroline
hard.
00:36:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She does not want the ah casting out.
00:36:37
Caroline
Right.
00:36:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, she people she could lose her entire community.
00:36:44
Caroline
Totally.
00:36:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know what was going through Laurie's mind, but I do know that sometime in the night he decided she was not going to let this go.
00:36:52
Caroline
No, yeah.
00:36:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he couldn't trick her anymore.
00:36:57
Caroline
Right.
00:36:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And police and prosecutors, they all believe that Laurie's outreach to the school may have triggered Mark to kill her since that's when his lies started to be exposed.
00:37:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what happened to Mark Hacking? Last time we checked, he was in the and mental institution for streaking through, you know, just running, but had his shoes on.
00:37:18
Caroline
yeah yep yep
00:37:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what happened to his sandals? Mark Hacking. While Mark Hacking was held on a psychiatric hold where two of his brothers visited him, and believe and remember, they're in the they're Mormons, they're his family, they're forgiving of him, they're trying to help him, um and they go to see him.
00:37:35
Caroline
yeah
00:37:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they just spent a lot of time with him, just begging him and urging him, and making the case for him to tell the truth. On July 24, he confessed to his family that on July 18, so this is less than a week, Carolyn, he and Laurie had argued after he told her the truth about the medical school.
00:38:06
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Later that night, he shot her while she slept, then put her body in a dumpster.
00:38:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The brothers shared the confession with Mark's attorney. who informed the police. Mark was arrested on August 2nd and charged with first-degree murder on August 9th.
00:38:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So there was some time there where, you know, they had to get him out of the psych ward.
00:38:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um The police searched for Laurie's remains at a municipal landfill until they were discovered. Caroline, it took two months
00:38:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And what happens is, what were you going to say?
00:38:51
Caroline
Well,
00:38:55
Caroline
I was just going to say, I know there's a, I think you're about to say it, there's a methodology with how landfills are ah filled up. So that's the only way you can start a grid search is by knowing that formula by which the land, you know, the garbage is placed into the landfill.
00:39:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Exactly.
00:39:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely, that's exactly right. And, you know, there are some videos of the ah eight or ten deputies out there searching, or and crime techs also, searching in the landfill where they knew her body had been dumped.
00:39:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:39:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But by the time they got the information, there had been a lot of compaction, there had been a lot of heaping on day after day after day after day after day.
00:39:36
Caroline
Yep.
00:39:41
Caroline
Yep.
00:39:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was very, very hot. It was very, very hot.
00:39:44
Caroline
August, yeah.
00:39:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um Yeah, July and August and into September
00:39:49
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:39:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and um at the landfill. And they kept going through these, they would open up bags where they felt they could tell that hair was in them.
00:39:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But all they kept determining that, you know, this was just hair from like a barbershop or a beauty shop or, you know,
00:40:07
Caroline
Right. Regular hairbrush letting out in the garbage.
00:40:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, all all of the above, you know.
00:40:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So every time they ran across a, a ah you know, a plastic body, I guess she was put in a ah plastic trash bag, maybe.
00:40:20
Caroline
Okay.
00:40:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Although I don't, I don't know.
00:40:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But they, they, they were looking in everything.
00:40:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They may have known or not known whether she was wrapped up. And I never got that information from what I had read. So they finally one day,
00:40:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
opened up one of those bags that had some hair sticking out, and they found her skull. And they found some other body parts, but not many because of the
Plea and Sentencing
00:40:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
compaction and, you know, the heels.
00:40:50
Caroline
What's the heat? The heat mixed with all that bacteria is going to speed up decomposition, I'm imagining. i don't know science very well.
00:40:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes. Oh, my God. Yes. On April 15, 2005, Mark pleaded guilty to first-degree murder. As Laurie's remains were too decomposed to verify her pregnancy, Mark did not face the death penalty.
00:41:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, in Utah, they shoot you.
00:41:18
Caroline
Oh, really? They do now in Idaho, too.
00:41:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes. Firing squad. Yeah.
00:41:21
Caroline
Idaho got jealous.
00:41:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm for it. You know, it's faster. You know, it's cheaper.
00:41:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not even for the death penalty. But then sometimes I see something i'm thinking, OK, I'll make an exception.
00:41:32
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not kidding.
00:41:33
Caroline
I've, yeah, no, me too. i I actually thought I was fairly anti-death penalty for the most part, then but but but ultimately it's none of my business.
00:41:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, me too.
00:41:42
Caroline
And I always kind of knew that because I'm not impact i'm not in that story. So it's none of my business. But at the same time recently, and I'm sure you guys can all figure out what recently has changed my mind.
00:41:53
Caroline
I think it's entirely something that should be like a 70, 30 up to the families of the victims. You know, none of my business.
00:41:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, that is a change that I would love to see. But on the other hand... No, I mean, that would be chaos.
00:42:03
Caroline
We have to have order. i
00:42:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that's why we have a separate legal system. and But I'm with you. You know, I i have heard judges say, after listening to the family, after hearing the impact statements, after this and this, I sentence you to do.
00:42:17
Caroline
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:42:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it influences some judges, but not all judges.
00:42:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, he pled guilty. He said in court, and I quote, I intentionally shot Laurie Hacking in the head with a.22 caliber rifle on July 19, 2004.
00:42:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
two thousand and four He was tas telling this to the court. At his sentencing, he declared, she was the greatest thing that ever happened to me, but I killed her and took her life and the life of my unborn child and put them in the garbage, and I cannot explain why I did it.
00:43:01
Caroline
Wow. what What a powerful statement, actually. Wow.
00:43:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep. Yep. Of course, he wants people think he's crazy.
00:43:11
Caroline
Well, this is the tough part because I want to have compassion after hearing something that feels very truthful and authentic. But then in reality, maybe that was part of a show. What was he doing? Was he really crying? Was it real? And then like you said, maybe he's just really good at making those emotions look real.
00:43:28
Caroline
I don't know.
00:43:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was good at making it look real.
00:43:32
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In fact, one of the things that confuses me about mark hacking is I always say that these killers, they're so narcissistic. They cannot imagine ah the context of other people.
00:43:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They can't imagine what other people go through. They have no compassion. I mean, I say things like that all the time. They have no... no empathy, they're missing that piece.
00:43:55
Caroline
yeah
00:43:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, this is how I explain to myself how these people can do these murders of their loved ones.
00:44:00
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:44:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I just, you know, that's my, that's been my go-to.
00:44:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And now I'm kind of looking at it again because I'm thinking to myself, this man had insight into other people. He was a con man. He could tell very quickly what the other person was feeling, thinking, and what they were all about so that he could con them.
00:44:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely.
00:44:28
Caroline
Yeah, like what their motivators were, right? Because that's kind of like, I think that's the art of communication, right? It's like identifying the motivating ah forces of the person you're attempting to influence, right?
00:44:42
Caroline
Like, so he was just really good at that, which is scary.
00:44:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely.
00:44:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's very scary. I like to think, well, these people are, you know, they're psychopaths, they're sociopaths, so therefore they they're narcissists, so they can't really get into the head, mind, and heart of the other person.
00:44:56
Caroline
Right. Right.
00:44:58
Caroline
Right. Right.
00:45:04
Caroline
right
00:45:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mark Hacking just blows me out of the water because... i All I can say is he he made me, in studying this case closer for this podcast, he made me go look up compulsive lying and how dangerous it is.
00:45:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um
00:45:25
Caroline
Well, you know how I feel about lying. It's entirely dangerous. You can't.
00:45:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes, yes.
00:45:30
Caroline
False realities. Can't do it.
00:45:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yace believes that the Marx pathological lying likely developed the in response to interactions in the community and with other people.
Psychological Aspects: Mark's Lies
00:45:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Quote, as he grew up and was watching other family members get successful and be successful, and he was not, remember his father's a pediatrician.
00:45:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His mother's a highly trained nurse.
00:45:55
Caroline
And his brothers. Yeah.
00:45:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, his brothers are all doing good.
00:46:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um You know, they are and he's not. And there's also an element of grandiosity. He felt like he felt like he deserved more than he was getting in life, but didn't want to put his energies into achieving the kind of goals that he probably could have achieved.
00:46:20
Caroline
I was just going to say, like, this is a what what did he what did he want to do? I mean, you know, that's the thing, like, because I think this is actually really common, especially among siblings, more than two. When you have more than two siblings, well, it'll even happen with two.
00:46:33
Caroline
But you're going to see everyone in your family is going to have some niche that this is what it's going to feel like for you. Everybody has a path but me. What's my path? I don't have any path. They're good at this. They're good at that.
00:46:46
Caroline
I'm not good at anything. That's such a common conversation yeah amongst siblings. There's always going to be one having that conversation with themselves. Like, and then they're going to try things that don't fit with them because they're trying them because they think, well, I have to be successful in the same ways as my siblings in order for the success to be real.
00:47:07
Caroline
I can't go carving out my own success that doesn't make sense to anyone else. I think, but did he ever even stop to ask himself, like, what do I want to do? Maybe I don't want to be this textbook successful.
00:47:20
Caroline
Maybe I want to go to open a business and be a salesman or something.
00:47:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I, everything he said, i completely think is exactly what happened.
00:47:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But there were other things happening too. And I want to talk here about what I learned from a 48 hours episode on this case that he had early in his early life, he began lying and he just couldn't quit.
00:47:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mark was sentenced to... I'll talk about that minute. So um Mark was sentenced to a minimum of six years in prison. Okay, that's that's a jaw-dropper.
00:47:57
Caroline
yeah
00:47:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The legal guideline at the time, but he will not be considered for parole before 2035. twenty thirty five So in other words, what happened was... He was sentenced to six years to life.
00:48:10
Caroline
Oh.
00:48:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the starting range is six years.
00:48:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So maybe somebody killed somebody, but there were situations, as you know, facts there that he could this person could get out in six years.
00:48:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he he was sentenced to six years to life.
00:48:26
Caroline
Okay.
00:48:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He went for parole. He asked for parole.
00:48:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
at six years, and the parole board decided no, and also decided and had the power to do so in Utah, that you will not be able to ask again until 2035. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:48:43
Caroline
Wow, what an interesting way to set it up. Okay. I mean, but it worked. So that's cool. So they can just deny him for another 15 years.
00:48:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah
00:48:51
Caroline
Don't even ask me again for 15 years.
00:48:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah there ah yeah yeah Yeah, yeah.
00:48:55
Caroline
Wow.
00:48:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
2035 is, you know, 10 years more. And then this was like, I can't do math right now. He is currently serving his time in the Central Utah Correctional Facility.
00:49:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um So I want to um want to go back to what I said about his early life of lying.
00:49:14
Caroline
yeah oh yeah
00:49:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In the 48 Hours episode, um He was depicted this way. They had some video of him from the family, you know, family photos and all this, that he was a bit clumsy and he would fall down and people would laugh and he enjoyed making people laugh.
00:49:26
Caroline
oh yeah
00:49:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he started doing things on purpose in his life, pretending that he was doing something that he wasn't doing or setting up situations that were goofy and weird
00:49:48
Caroline
Right.
00:49:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was constantly looking for a way to manufacture his environment and the people in his environment in order to get a rise out of them, a laugh out of them, fun.
00:50:00
Caroline
Okay.
00:50:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, well, he decided that lying is just better than truth.
00:50:06
Caroline
Like he just liked that world better than the real world altogether.
00:50:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes, that he became, he became... oh this is what he was of all about is what can I manufacture as reality so that the reality will get me what I want which is attention
00:50:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:24
Caroline
Right. It was like a grand play. He was continuously putting on every new entrance of a person in the life becomes a new character i can manipulate in the story I create.
00:50:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yes he can have his own universe pretty soon he is the god of his own universe
00:50:38
Caroline
Yeah. Yep.
00:50:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he just lived that way.
00:50:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This was his pattern of living.
00:50:47
Caroline
Right.
00:50:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This was not a pattern in his living. This was the pattern of his living.
00:50:52
Caroline
right that That explains the ah like grandiosity of the of of the participation in the lie, not just painting the lie, but but physically going to other places I say I'm going to go for interviews or whatever, even though I have no business there.
00:51:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Living the lie.
00:51:09
Caroline
that That kind of gives me a sense of why so grand. Most people just lie about it and then they go to some place no one will find them for two weeks that's real close by. But he actually would fly around and play act at this role he had created.
00:51:24
Caroline
i mean, it was that's pretty elaborate.
00:51:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. at Right. Yep. So in 2006, and six and i remember he's in prison, in 2006 he was found to be providing autographs and other items for a murder memorabilia site.
00:51:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Did not know that there was a murder memorabilia site.
00:51:42
Caroline
Rose.
00:51:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:51:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway, though he voluntarily agreed to stop. um With encouragement from his family, he has also written a quote-unquote life history while in bars.
00:51:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay,
00:52:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this is good on you, family, for trying to get him to do something that would tell the truth. I'm sorry for you, because i asking an inveterate liar to write their life history
00:52:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, wait a minute, maybe that would be a good play or a good movie script, but it's going to be fiction.
00:52:22
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:52:27
Caroline
It's gonna be fiction.
00:52:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I think they're trying, you know, I'm reading into this. I think that they're trying to get him to recall some of the truth of what was happening in his life and why he chose to lie.
00:52:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:38
Caroline
Well, that's it. Well, that's it.
00:52:43
Caroline
they that's It's true but because they say to try and catch a liar, you often are asked, just ask them to continue to repeat the story. That's how you can catch someone in a lie because the deviations begin to flow.
00:52:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What was the lie he told?
00:52:55
Caroline
You know you begin to see where the lies are. You can even start to pinpoint why the lies are being told that way, maybe from this exercise. So I actually do think this is a great exercise because...
00:53:06
Caroline
At least, you know, we did this with people like Bundy with the tapes or Son of Son. You know, we have all these tapes now of these people talking about their crimes. Whether they're admitting to it or not is kind of irrelevant because now it's just it's this repetition of the gathering of the information consistently.
00:53:23
Caroline
that allows us to paint a more accurate picture later as we lay that all out. So I do think, even though we know people are liars, continue to ask them the same questions and them write it down. Because over the course of 10, 20, 30 years, you're going to get a better sense of the realities of the story versus the fictions of the story, you know?
00:53:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like what the FBI did when they went out and they interviewed killers and they found some some similarities and they plotted it all out and they did a lot of scientific work to determine, you know, here's how we can predict who your a killer is.
00:53:46
Caroline
Yep.
00:53:50
Caroline
Right.
00:53:58
Caroline
Yes.
00:53:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
look You need to look for a painter with a Volkswagen who gets up at six in the morning.
00:54:04
Caroline
That's right.
00:54:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and And they can do that, and they've done it successfully. and and It doesn't always work, but they've done it successfully many times.
00:54:09
Caroline
Oh, yes. For a decade. And it's only going to get better. I mean, that's the thing about data.
00:54:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:54:15
Caroline
I, you know, I i know.
00:54:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Wait till AI gets ahead of all of it.
00:54:19
Caroline
Don't let the AI get too smart on that one. Yeah.
00:54:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah yeah Yeah, really.
00:54:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, so I do want to say something about Laurie. I've got to go back to Laurie. um In 2004, when all this happened, you know, Laurie's brother...
00:54:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
is given an impact statement.
00:54:36
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now remember, Laurie was adopted and her brother was adopted at the same time by the same people.
00:54:41
Caroline
yeah
00:54:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Laurie's brother Paul Suarez said in her relationship with Mark, quote, he didn't have to be a doctor.
00:55:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
a president, whatever it was, if he was doing his best, she would have loved him.
00:55:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, I bet the night she died, she was not talking about, I'm going to leave you, as much as she was talking about, do you understand how much help you need?
00:55:19
Caroline
No. Yeah.
00:55:24
Caroline
That part.
00:55:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this is This is really, really, really bad.
00:55:25
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I might have mentioned this before, I think I did, but during the investigation into Laurie's disappearance, a typewritten letter from Laurie to Mark was found in the couple's spare bedroom. It's unknown when she wrote it, but it may have been connected to the July 16 call she made to the medical school that she thought Mark was attending. In the letter, she pleaded with Mark to change his behavior, writing, I want to grow old with you, but I can't do it under these conditions.
00:55:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can't imagine life with you if things don't change.
00:56:03
Caroline
Wow.
00:56:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, here she's just pleading.
00:56:03
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it She's throwing herself at his feet.
00:56:07
Caroline
yeah
00:56:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She loved him.
00:56:09
Caroline
yeah
00:56:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Laurie's remains were buried at a grave site that bears her maiden name, Suarez, not her married name. In her honor, her family established the Laurie K. Suarez Hacking Memorial Scholarship at the University of Utah's David Eccles School of Business.
00:56:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think she probably did that in concert with his parents, and that is why in this memorial scholarship, um which they probably donated to, um the her ah married name ah came out
00:56:47
Caroline
Okay.
00:56:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But when they put her name on her tombstone, it did not.
00:56:52
Caroline
yeah
00:56:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway, they um they came up with a ah a way to honor her. And the same school, this was the same school that Laurie had attended, University of Utah. um The scholarship aids women in disadvantaged situations and those facing personal challenges.
00:57:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she's, they're trying to find people like her and help them.
00:57:19
Caroline
Yep. Yeah. yeah
00:57:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In 2004, the a and e aired a documentary about the case Deadly Deception, the Mark Hacking Story. um that That story broke my heart.
00:57:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Listeners, if you can find it on YouTube and and and watch it, it broke my heart. Lori's mother, Thelma Suarez, has exchanged letters with Mark in prison.
00:57:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She says she has forgiven him for her own peace of mind, but she still grieves her daughter's death. You never get over it, she said in a 2014 interview with Deseret News, which is a Utah Mormon newspaper.
00:58:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not over it now. I will never get over it. What you get over is the immediacy of it, but you never get over the loss.
00:58:12
Caroline
Yeah, she's right.
00:58:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's right. Now, Caroline, this... this story, when I started to research the truth about what happened, it really shook me up.
00:58:24
Caroline
Yeah.
Reflections on Lying as Addiction
00:58:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Like, what? You know, you can be addicted to lying. And I guess I sort of frivolously always thought that. But this is real.
00:58:34
Caroline
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:58:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This man was just, you know, not clinically, you know, not legally insane.
00:58:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:58:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he did not know truth from fiction.
00:58:46
Caroline
He didn't want to.
00:58:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I looked at, I did some reading.
00:58:47
Caroline
he He wanted complete authorship over any truth that that was available, right?
00:58:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
00:58:54
Caroline
Which, of course, you can't control for others. Like, truth is subjective on some fronts, but not on any of these fronts. But, you know, I mean, he just, like you said, I think early on, I mean, he just, he got caught up in the show.
00:59:08
Caroline
And then it became like, I don't like any any of the elements about my real reality. I'm going to live entirely in this falsified reality. one that I get to write as a script.
00:59:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I wonder if he didn't want to move to North Carolina and then once they were there, break it to him because he was trying to get away from his ah Mormon background, his community, faith community, his parents, his father, the doctor, his brothers, the superior thinkers who are doing good in life.
00:59:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He wanted to get away from that and he wanted Laurie with him and he wanted this baby. But, you know, when she found out, um he didn't know how to solve his problem.
00:59:51
Caroline
Yeah. He didn't know how to get out of this pickle of people know.
00:59:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He didn't know, it she wasn't going to move to North Carolina way away from her family with with no medical school and no sense of purpose, right?
00:59:56
Caroline
With no sense of purpose there. ah there's Yeah. like it was a lot It was a facade, the whole reason why she would even go out there. And she's got a community here that she wouldn't want to leave.
01:00:09
Caroline
Yeah, but you're right. I mean, for him, all the things you listed, that's all just accountability. Accountability he can no longer even think to face because he's been doing it his whole life.
01:00:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. So I did look it up. Here were the four things that I found in every article I i read. People who become habitual liars and con artists do so ah for a combination of psychological traits and situational factors.
01:00:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, and I'm not a shrink.
01:00:38
Caroline
Right.
01:00:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i've got a I've got a microphone and a computer. That's all I have.
01:00:44
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um And I don't know, but this is what I read.
01:00:45
Caroline
We got Google.
01:00:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And here are some of the traits. Manipulative nature. Many con artists and liars possess a natural tendency to manipulate others. That's just their tendency. Some people like to swim.
01:00:57
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know such Some people want to go to the moon. you know ah Some people want to manipulate others, often using charm and persuasing persuasion to deceive others.
01:01:06
Caroline
and
01:01:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The other one, psychological truck tactics. Successful car artists employ various psychological tactics, such as creating empathy and support with their victims to maintain their illusion of truth.
01:01:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so ah this this rings true to me that, you know, and I did not know that a killer could do that, but they do.
01:01:32
Caroline
Me too. Yeah.
01:01:37
Caroline
Well, look, let me frame it in a way we all can understand. When you get pulled over because you've been speeding or doing some other thing that could get you a ticket, the first thing you're going to do is attempt to build rapport with that police officer. Gosh, I'm so sorry. You know, my child is ripping me a new one from the backseat and I just couldn't, you know, blah, blah, blah. You're trying to build a rapport. You're looking at the officer thinking, do you have kids?
01:02:00
Caroline
Do you know what I mean? Are you ever late for work? Like, you know, you're trying to build a sense of sympathy. And sometimes it works and they give you a warning.
01:02:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, so a little bit of manipulating others to get what you want is in all of us.
01:02:16
Caroline
It's a survival trade.
01:02:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's in all of us. But successful con artists and liars employ, ah they're doing it all the time when telling the truth would be better for them.
01:02:24
Caroline
Larger scale. Yes. Yeah.
01:02:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The third one, human nature. The tendency to trust others can make individuals more susceptible to deceit, especially when offers seem too good to be true.
01:02:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, now I am not one of those people.
01:02:42
Caroline
Yeah.
01:02:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm a very distrusting person, but I trusted Mark Hacking.
01:02:45
Caroline
Yeah. Which is good. Isn't that funny? um so I think it's so important to keep emphasizing that, that you were, you know, you know that he fully pulled on your heartstring in a way that was no questions asked.
01:03:02
Caroline
Right?
01:03:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it was real. What he was coming across with was real because he believed it was real because of all the things we've been saying.
01:03:04
Caroline
Yeah.
01:03:09
Caroline
Yeah.
01:03:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Also, the last thing that was common among what everybody has to say about these liars is compulsive lying. Some individuals may develop a compulsive habit of lying, often as a coping strategy for insecurities and past traumas.
01:03:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, bingo.
01:03:26
Caroline
Bingo.
01:03:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had that too. So I think he had all four of these things.
01:03:29
Caroline
Yeah.
01:03:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was just ah a um lethal weapon.
01:03:36
Caroline
Yeah. But these are all, like, that last one, you know, often is a coping mechanism mechanism for insecurities and past traumas. i mean, who hasn't done that? Who hasn't lied about, like, I'm
01:03:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, I do it all the time. Somebody tells me, will you come over to my house? I'd love to, but I've got blah, blah, blah, blah bla going on.
01:03:51
Caroline
Right.
01:03:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm sorry.
01:03:52
Caroline
Because you just, I mean, so the line is so thin.
01:03:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't want to hurt him.
01:03:55
Caroline
And so, you know, but yes, always be looking out for these things and also try to overcome some of those little ones. I know that's what I think when I read this is like, yeah, maybe just do that one time less when you notice it's happening, Caroline.
01:04:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, here's what I have to say. Our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject, all in the public domain.
01:04:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Episodes are aired every other week. Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe. It helps new listeners find us. Well, thank you listeners for joining us. We really appreciate you listening to our story today.
01:04:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
of this family murderer. And one other thing. Don't forget to live and let live. So bye-bye, Caroline.
01:04:52
Caroline
Bye-bye. butbye