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Felix and Susan Polk
88 Plays2 months ago
Can a husband and wife both be responsible when one of them murders the other? This case is about just that. It is hard to point to a single villian. Listen and see if you agree.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hearth Home and Homicide
00:00:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello listeners, this is Bridget.
00:00:05
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
Focus on Family Murders
00:00:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Welcome, you're listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murderers.
Understanding Family Dynamics
00:00:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline and I research and narrate each story and Andy is our producer.
00:00:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline and I try to figure out what is going on with this family at the center of our case. It's going be kind of easy and tough today. We know the ripple effect of family murder never ends. That is always true.
Impact of Family Murders
00:00:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
Case Introduction: Susan and Felix Polk
00:00:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, Caroline, today we're covering a very twisted relationship that destroyed two people.
00:00:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's the first tier of destruction. Then you've got, you know, the ripple effect.
00:00:55
Caroline
multiple yeah yeah
00:00:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
One of them is alive and incarcerated for murder, and the man she murdered ruined her life beginning when she was 14 years old.
00:01:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So for me, it is hard to know who did the worst thing between the two. and you know, since you and I are not trained in psychology...
00:01:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is impossible to know really who is the bigger villain in this story. So here we go. We're in the San Francisco area for our murder.
00:01:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, when I was just a kid, San Francisco represented flowers in your hair, smoking weed, hanging out with poets and singers and artists and sinners of all kinds.
Susan's Early Life
00:01:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was nirvana until at some point it was not.
00:01:49
Caroline
and
00:01:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Susan Polk was born Susan May Bowling in 1957.
00:02:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She never wanted to play with toys or other girls or do anything other than just read Tolstoy and such type books. She was a thinker big time.
00:02:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I would say that she might be an introvert and a deep thinker from the go. i think that's safe. She was riddled with angst about her parents' divorce.
00:02:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That just messed her up. She just couldn't handle it that her parents were getting a divorce.
Therapy with Dr. Felix Polk
00:02:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And her teachers advised her mother to take 14-year-old Susan to see Dr. Felix Polk, a psychotherapist of well-repute the San Francisco circles dealing with different teens.
00:02:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Susan was having panic attacks that grew, grew and grew. She was just having them all the time. And yet here is where I want to just step in and take Susan from these people.
00:03:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But getting one's head shrunk all the time was a fad in metro areas like New York, Chicago, L.A., and San Francisco.
Therapy Culture in the 1970s
00:03:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In fact, I heard Woody Allen tell some interviewer recently that he has had the same psychiatrist that he goes to almost every day ah for many, many years.
00:03:23
Caroline
Every day? i mean, wonder how that, I wonder, I just wonder what the psychologist's perspective is on that relationship.
00:03:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know, but and you know, I'll never know because of a little thing called money. So um maybe it's still in vogue, you know, to do that with.
00:03:46
Caroline
Oh, definitely. i think mental health has been a crisis for at least five years now.
00:03:50
Caroline
ah but the But I don't know that Americans like are trained in the art of advocating for themselves, which is what compels this story for me, because...
00:03:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:01
Caroline
Like, I don't know. It's just interesting. Divorce in the 70s, not super common. So I can see there being some angst there. Like, I remember as a kid, divvying that stuff up in elementary school.
00:04:12
Caroline
You're clocking whose parents are together and whose aren't. And it was a thing.
00:04:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. It was a thing.
00:04:16
Caroline
But I don't know. Like, no one teaches you how to go to a mental health therapist, even today.
00:04:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
00:04:23
Caroline
They definitely, I don't even know that they were still, they would have called them foo-foo doctors back in the 70s still, wouldn't they?
00:04:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
00:04:29
Caroline
Like, they were sort of...
00:04:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Head shrinkers.
00:04:31
Caroline
Head shrinkers. Yeah, it was like pejorative. So i don't know. i think it's stare definitely still in vogue, but I think it's covered by some of your medical benefits now, partially.
00:04:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. Well, it has to be in most states, in Washington state where we are. You have to, an insurance company must, if they want to practice in this, if they want to have customers in this state, they must ah pay psychological medical help at the same level as physical help.
00:05:02
Caroline
Oh, okay. Good.
00:05:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, um yeah, I mean, back in the 70s, it was just really different.
00:05:03
Caroline
That's great. Yeah.
Inappropriate Relationship Begins
00:05:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And our case today really started in 1972 when Dr. Felix Polk started treating Susan. Back then, the boundaries for counselors and psychotherapists were way different than they are today.
00:05:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, when I say way, I mean way, way. As a psychotherapist, Dr. Polk was encouraged to take his patients ah to places like go to dinner with them.
00:05:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I go to social events with them and you know, is that weird now? I mean, we that would not happen today.
00:05:48
Caroline
I think it's weird. I think it's weird, but I guess, ah you know, i i don't think I take a large enough pull of the universe around me, but it would be strange to me. But I guess I would assume Hollywood stars bring their therapist to things like that.
00:06:05
Caroline
ah I'm being stereotyping of rich people there. But yeah, i find that weird. Yeah.
00:06:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, you know, I was reading up on this story and I realized that as a as of as a kid, when I was a kid um or a young adult, my mother in Georgia was experiencing a great deal of what I would look at retrospectively as a sexism in the workplace, um being discounted by men.
00:06:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was in human resources in the for the federal government in Fort Benning, Georgia. And she had always, you know, been in charge of her own work.
00:06:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But then as the salaries got a little bit better in human resource, here comes the man.
00:06:51
Caroline
you
00:06:56
Caroline
Oh.
00:06:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And of course, you know, okay, yeah, yeah.
00:06:57
Caroline
Ruin everything. No.
00:07:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they started bumping her around and just leaving her out of meetings and all of the above. So my mother in Georgia in 1979,
00:07:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
when she lost one of her grandchildren in a terrible accident, and I was living in Washington State with my own two kids and and you coming up next, I remember her telephone call to me the day that ah my nephew died.
00:07:22
Caroline
Thank you.
00:07:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was only 19 months old, and it was an accident. And one of the first things she told me on this telephone call was that her psychotherapist was at the house,
00:07:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she he was the first person she called to come over and help her with the news about this loss. So this was going on even in normal middle class families.
00:07:52
Caroline
That seems like a smart choice on your mom's part, honestly, because that that's the only place where I'm reading that and that feels very normal.
00:07:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep, yep.
00:08:00
Caroline
Like, just like you would bring a priest over, you're bringing in your therapist. I'm about to fall apart, you know?
00:08:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. But I got to tell you, I think today, if you called your counselor and said, you know, I've lost a loved one to an accident and I need you to come over to my house and help me work through it.
00:08:16
Caroline
Right.
00:08:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That that that that would not happen today.
00:08:19
Caroline
I don't know that that would happen. Yeah.
00:08:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, no, no.
00:08:21
Caroline
I think you're probably right about that.
00:08:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, big city like that, maybe. But not not. No, I don't really know.
00:08:27
Caroline
Well, I mean, honestly, let's put it in perspective. If we don't have regulations like that, I just want to throw out that Matt, what is his name? Oh my God, I'm forgetting. Chandler from Friends, that actor, Matt.
00:08:43
Caroline
Oh, I'm so mad at myself for not remembering. Anyway, he, it's recently turned that he didn't just die accidentally. He was murdered by the people around him due to negligence. And one of them was a doctor.
00:08:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. They were profiting from him and his addictions.
00:08:53
Caroline
Oh, so that's it. And so this is why it's important that we not, that we have these kinds of boundaries between the doctors and their patients because, you know, we're all fallible like that.
00:09:06
Caroline
And that that man lost his life.
00:09:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:09:07
Caroline
So yeah.
00:09:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, when your dad died, you know, i had a hospice ah counselor.
00:09:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, she did come to my house until I was, you know, for years.
00:09:16
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:09:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, she's still on my Facebook list.
00:09:21
Caroline
Yes.
00:09:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But that's kind of different because she was contracting with a hospice.
00:09:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, they will come to your house. So anyway, back to our story. Back to
Ethical Violations in Therapy
00:09:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Dr. Felix Polk and his new teenage patient with whom he fell madly in love.
00:09:38
Caroline
Mm.
00:09:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline, Susan was 14. Felix was 39, and he was burie he was married with two young children. Nevertheless, within the next two years, he was very, very close to Susan, and according to Susan and her mother, dr Felix Polk first had sexual intercourse with Susan when she turned 16.
00:10:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He did it as part of a quote-unquote session And Felix has never denied that. of course, he's dead now, but, you know, he never denied that.
00:10:16
Caroline
Well, he's a predator. My God.
00:10:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I know, but, you know, back then, doing stuff with your client, I mean, your patient was, you know, i don't, I doubt this is,
00:10:26
Caroline
Yeah. I do think about, well, I was going to say, if anyone's watched the series Mad Men, there's an episode early on. And I think I called you when I watched this because I was shocked.
00:10:39
Caroline
I didn't know this, but it was the, you know, 50s, 60s. And she's seeing a therapist. She's talking to her therapist. And then she leaves. The therapist calls the husband. The husband tells the husband everything.
00:10:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes?
00:10:51
Caroline
I'm like, what? I was shocked. I was shook. But apparently...
00:10:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline, in 1981 or 2, the year my mother died, um later I found out that the oncologist she was seeing told ah my father she was terminally ill but did not tell her.
00:11:16
Caroline
Oh, shocking. That seems like negligible on a lawsuit level. Like that's cruel. ah
00:11:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, she, you know, back then they thought that men ruled the rule to the world. And this is why my mother wound up in a, and i ah there with a therapist is because of the way she was being treated.
00:11:31
Caroline
Right.
00:11:36
Caroline
With a therapist. yeah but
00:11:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the
00:11:39
Caroline
Oh.
00:11:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
with The problem with all of this at the time and the place, this wasn't called what it is now. It now, ah it is it is now three very dangerous circumstances. First of all, it would be criminal rape.
00:11:57
Caroline
yeah. Yeah.
00:11:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A child of 16 has no way of giving consent, period, end of exercise.
00:12:03
Caroline
yeah
00:12:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
An adult today of 39 or older is committing rape of anyone under 18, no matter what the ridiculous claim is about consent. There is no consent with a child.
00:12:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
by to an adult consenting that the adult have sex with her. The second problem is that today if a therapist has sex with a patient, that is also a crime and the doctor cannot keep it in his pants would lose his medical license today or a woman if it were to be a ah female therapist and a male client patient or female.
00:12:36
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, nobody gets to do that. Nobody.
00:12:44
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:12:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um And there would be those legal criminal issues as well. And then the third problem with this, and I think in this case, the biggest problem, there is a big deal in mental health practice called transference.
00:13:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, transference ah doesn't mean always that you've fallen in love with your therapist and you are stalking your therapist. It can mean that.
00:13:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But there transference is a normal occurrence and emotional therapeutic work. And it aids the therapist in observing behaviors that then the therapist can bring the therapy session and say, ah this is what is going on.
00:13:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are transferring onto me feelings that you have about your father.
00:13:48
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:13:48
Caroline
Right.
00:13:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so we need to talk about that relationship that you have with your real father.
00:13:53
Caroline
yeah
00:13:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or it could be you are transferring your feelings for me about your husband or your boyfriend.
00:14:04
Caroline
right
00:14:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah And that's okay because this gives me an opportunity to see how you relate in a girlfriend, boyfriend relationship. And then I can help you with feeling healthy about all of those things.
00:14:22
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:14:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So transference is very important. But when a psychotherapist uses the transference as a signal, a green light to have sex,
00:14:35
Caroline
right
00:14:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And to be overly familiar with this person, that's a problem. And so I see in this case, ah transference was the biggest problem because I do not believe that Dr. Felix Polk handled the transference properly, even if it was legal what he did.
00:14:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it's not. Not
00:14:55
Caroline
Right?
Legal Implications of Dr. Polk's Actions
00:14:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
today.
00:14:56
Caroline
Yeah. no yeah
00:14:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What Dr. Felix Polk was doing was exploiting Susan, his patient, and becoming ah out he was forging what's called a dual relationship.
00:15:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In therapy, the dual relationship leads inevitably to a failure in one part of the duality, harming the other part of the the duality. So he's her therapist, but he's also her lover.
00:15:24
Caroline
Yeah, i can't can't do it. I mean, you already just saying that, you know that that's a conflict of interest right there.
00:15:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you
00:15:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah you there There's no way to be both. You cannot have both a doctor-patient relationship and a sexual and psychosexual relationship because of the demands of one role is overtaken eventually by the demands of the other.
00:15:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are either my psychotherapist or you are my lover, my boyfriend, and God forbid, my husband and father to my children. But that is what was happening here. So, of course, Susan was the victim.
00:16:03
Caroline
Yeah, she's so young. What would she know different?
00:16:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
oh
00:16:06
Caroline
what would i mean, really, if you don't know different, like i I was watching something and people were like, we didn't know what it was supposed to look like. So this seemed fine. you know And it's like, that's very common. You know, if you don't know what something's supposed to look like, you're going to roll with it. Everybody else seems to be rolling with it.
00:16:24
Caroline
Well, okay.
00:16:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I found in court papers about this case that the mother... felt that very strongly. And she let Dr. Polk know, you are manipulating my daughter in order to have sex.
00:16:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are, that is bad.
00:16:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You should not be doing that. But she never called the police.
00:16:49
Caroline
Ah, dang. And to her credit, I mean, she recognized the, you know, read the room. She's in the seventies. A woman calling saying that the psychotherapist is going to have her committed. Like it's a scary situation for real. That makes me even more sad that her mom saw it all happening.
00:17:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, of course, it is very sad, and I don't know all the details. I just know what her testimony was. So, um you know, she's probably riddled with guilt.
00:17:12
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I doubt she's still alive, but if she is, she she she paid a price.
00:17:21
Caroline
yeah
00:17:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When Susan graduated from high school, she was finally able to get free of Felix Polk because Susan began her college life, yeah and remember, she's very, very smart,
00:17:33
Caroline
yeah
00:17:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Susan began her college life at Mills College and San Francisco State University. She graduated magna cum laude. That's so fantastic, except for the coercive control Dr. Felix Polk still had over Susan.
00:17:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, coercive control, again, was not a term in the 1970s, but it is today. i mean, we're very aware of coercive control.
00:17:58
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:18:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um
00:18:02
Caroline
But 70s was like part and parcel. That was the formula for success was to manipulate people around you. I mean, no, like that kind of was like.
00:18:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, and there were very few taboos in San Francisco.
00:18:17
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, you know, the fact that you are a psychotherapist and you are clinging to this date that is also your client and your patient, I don't think
00:18:29
Caroline
Right.
00:18:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
People were batting an eye over that. I don't.
00:18:34
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Susan Attempts to End Relationship
00:18:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, Susan did break up with Felix. She just got mad and she says, i'm I've had it with you. Leave me alone. She was midway through college and she was 20 years old when she did that.
00:18:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She began therapy with a different psychotherapist. Now buckle up, Caroline, because she shared with this new therapist everything that had happened to her while she was a 14-year-old girl and thereafter.
00:19:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But instead of calling the authorities or the state licensing organization for wayward psychotherapists, her new sir the therapist, who knew Felix personally, called his then-wife,
00:19:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A divorce ensued, and as soon as it did, in 1982, Susan and Felix, God forbid, got married.
00:19:29
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:19:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, I believe, I believe, yes.
00:19:31
Caroline
Because like conflict, conflict, conflict. First of all, you know the person I'm talking about. You don't immediately stop this session.
00:19:41
Caroline
Sorry.
00:19:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, you're right.
00:19:43
Caroline
I'm upset.
00:19:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Duality. I'm a friend of Felix's, and I'm your therapist. Duality.
00:19:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, it's just so, it is so corrosive.
00:19:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is so toxic.
00:20:00
Caroline
poor Susan.
00:20:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh.
00:20:01
Caroline
She's so smart, but every exit she turns to is like defective and they're defective, not her because she is on her way out, going to college, breaking it off, telling a new cycle.
00:20:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
oh
00:20:13
Caroline
there These are all steps towards salvation for her. They should be towards protection, you know, justice. And instead it's like all part of the same hot mess.
00:20:24
Caroline
Oh God.
00:20:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, um I'm speculating here, but I don't think you have to be ah genius level speculator to to see the handwriting on the wall.
00:20:38
Caroline
Right.
00:20:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that is when Felix's friend, the psychotherapist of current 20-year-old Susan, called the wife.
00:20:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The wife gave her husband an ultimatum. And he went to Susan, he, Felix, went to Susan, and said, well, you've busted up my marriage, telling my friend therapist about this, and ah now I'm going to be divorced, and, you know, look at what you've done.
00:21:07
Caroline
What you can, yes.
00:21:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that's coercive control.
00:21:10
Caroline
hundred percent 100%. Yes, you nailed it. I bet you that's exactly what happened.
00:21:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she married him. Susan recounts that she was very confused, and when she was proposed to by Felix in 1982, she He held sway over her that she couldn't resist, caving into his orders, course of control.
00:21:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They were married. He had divorced his wife and left her with the kids and got married before his spell on Susan began to wear thin.
Marriage and Family Life
00:21:41
Caroline
Well, I do want to just throw out, I don't know if you have it and maybe it'll come up later, but I want to know more from Felix's first wife. I want to know more from his first kids. I want to have conversations about what was he like? What was that like? What was going on? Was there ever a shift in things, in the dynamics?
00:22:00
Caroline
You know, did it end up looking a lot like what did it look like for Susan? Like I just had so many questions around that first marriage.
00:22:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i um I didn't hear from the wife in any of the literature that I read or the, you know, the records that I read. But i um I did see some things that the children of his first marriage had to say in court in support of their father.
00:22:26
Caroline
Okay.
00:22:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so they they they admired their father. they They loved their father. And they thought that ah Susan was cuckoo.
00:22:32
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:37
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And two of her sons wound up thinking that too and came to court to tell that story.
00:22:43
Caroline
ah Just sad.
00:22:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she had three she had three sons. So ah she was confused. She married him. And this marriage, in my opinion, was a big stick of dynamite.
00:22:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that was you know had a very long fuse, but it was eventually going to blow up. No surprises there. But of course, there will be blood and there will be murder because we're talking about it on murder in the family.
00:23:10
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We're not talking about it because we want to talk about hearth, home, and only goodness.
00:23:17
Caroline
Right.
00:23:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We want to talk about hearth, home, and and murder, and
00:23:18
Caroline
first moment Happy thoughts.
00:23:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Homicide, homicide. Susan Polk had three wonderful sons with Felix. So that explains utterly to me why she stayed married to him as long as she did.
00:23:31
Caroline
Oh, yeah. I mean, once the kids are there, it's a different yeah universe.
00:23:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, and she was a very welcoming of the other two children as well.
00:23:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, she was, she was,
00:23:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was having a married life and she was making the best of it. And there were busy, busy years for her. Weekends packed with athletics and adventures on land and water.
00:23:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Felix was making very good money. he was quite wealthy, actually.
00:23:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
However, behind closed doors, there was tension and volatility always because Felix's practice had made a lot of money and he was well regarded. The Polks were well off, and the boys idolized their father, although one of them was kind of a mama's boy from the go, the middle child, Eli, and he stood up for her in court, which is going to backfire on her. But anyway, um I mean, you know she's got a good life, but she hates Felix.
00:24:29
Caroline
Yeah, there's, I mean, that's not her fault.
00:24:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At some level, you know, she hates
00:24:33
Caroline
I mean, I want to say that, that that's not her fault, that that's a natural consequence of the trauma she is born out of. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're 14, let's all just for a moment, think back to when we were 14.
00:24:45
Caroline
Do you think the person sitting there imagining that 14 year old would relate in any way to that 14 year old? Maybe, maybe not.
00:24:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, I think it's safe to say that Felix had control of her from age 14 until the day he died.
00:24:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:58
Caroline
Yeah.
Susan's Deep Resentments
00:25:00
Caroline
That's what I'm saying. And that's, that is trauma.
00:25:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he he She just could not seem to, i think she was starting to emerge in in that she was going to start driving her own bus, so to speak.
00:25:10
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I heard that from a therapist one time. It was very good advice. Bridget, who is who is st driving your bus? When you imagine your life and pretend it's a bus, who's in control?
00:25:21
Caroline
That's C. Yeah.
00:25:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um at that time, I think I might have answered because I was very young.
00:25:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's my mother.
00:25:29
Caroline
He's so so for Susan. She'd answer Felix and I'm trying to kick him out. Oh, my God.
00:25:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. Toward the end of the 90s and in the beginning of the 2000s, there was nothing but threats of violence and worse at home.
00:25:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Susan was intensely angry over Felix's control over her, and she was intensely acting out.
00:25:58
Caroline
yeah
00:25:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She started telling her boys, her friends, her mother, the checkout lady at the supermarket. um She would tell anybody and everybody, every chance she got that she needed to kill Felix, and this is how I planned to do it.
00:26:15
Caroline
um
00:26:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she would make up these very vivid, long stories about how he was she was going to make him pay. And this was her therapy, apparently.
00:26:26
Caroline
Oh my God. Well, so, okay. This is, this is interesting because I think as a society, this is a shift we've seen because it's still what it's like the nineties, I mean, I guess people were still saying stuff like that and like people would let it, you know, slide. But I think about that the clock tower shooter. He was saying stuff like this too.
00:26:46
Caroline
I mean, maybe we ought to just always take it seriously from here on out.
00:26:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely.
00:26:51
Caroline
If you're joking jokes on you.
00:26:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah
00:26:53
Caroline
Cause I would take this so seriously. what you just said right it's never a joke about me right loose yeah yep
00:26:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. Or distance yourself from any person who says such things. What if you press the wrong button at the checkout? You're dead? Is that what's going to happen?
00:27:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, it's it's just she was kind of coming, ah loose you know, she she was having a thing in her, she it had, it was this stick of dynamite that had, the fuse was long, but it was lit.
00:27:19
Caroline
yep yeah yeah
00:27:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And from 14 on, you know.
00:27:26
Caroline
I mean, that's the turmoil part. And she tried to get help in her 20s and she was dejected and trapped. And there's a part of me, mom, like you said, this is the fault.
00:27:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Betrayed.
00:27:36
Caroline
Yeah, she was I feel for her because even when you have this great life and you make all your choices, there's a point after having kids in your 30s where you're like, I want to blow all of this up because what about me?
00:27:46
Caroline
I want to go have fun again. You know, you kind of get to this wall of what have I done what have I given up you know who's a like you just do it's that midlife thing I think everybody does but women in particular so for her she doesn't even have necessarily this regular i made all these choices to get here it was like everyone else got me here so I could see her having a real mental breakdown at this point you know
00:28:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, I mean, I actually think you just said something that clarifies for me maybe what she's doing when she's telling everybody, I'm going to kill Felix and this is how I'm going to do it.
00:28:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that she was doing that as like maybe the first decision that she could possibly make on her own.
00:28:33
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:39
Caroline
That's it.
00:28:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, when I think back to all of these things that she was telling friends, you know, telling her sons, terrible boundary crossing there, and that she needed to kill Felix, and this is how she's going to do it.
00:28:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:50
Caroline
Totally.
00:28:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think she made it clear that she was entitled to do so after everything he had done to her.
00:28:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:02
Caroline
See what I mean? She's having a real episode right now about, yeah.
00:29:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He killed me. Why can't I kill him back?
00:29:11
Caroline
Like he ruined everything. And in the 90s and 2000s, there is literature showing how bad his actions were now. Like we do see how bad these things were.
00:29:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She can't go to another therapist and get help, can she?
00:29:26
Caroline
No, the first time she did it, it blew everything up in the worst. That's what I'm saying. She's got to feel so trapped. I just, I, there's a part of me that's having some empathy right now, emotional empathy for her.
00:29:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, you know what? I've got you right where I want you because and now I'm not alone.
00:29:43
Caroline
Right.
00:29:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, that's why i said I said something I've never said before at the beginning of the episode, which is I don't know who is the worst villain here.
00:29:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:53
Caroline
I see now why you said that because i you know, if you really for a moment kind of read through her story and the choices and even not knowing a lot of the stuff that I do have questions about. wow, she got trapped.
00:30:05
Caroline
And wow, like she's flailing now. Like she's like trapped in a room ah for decades, no light. And so now she's recognizing I can break free from this.
00:30:18
Caroline
I'm gonna break free for, you know, I mean, I just, it's, it's a psychotic breakdown of sorts, but well, yeah, you're,
00:30:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep. Well, the part about telling people, I mean, you know, she's still 14 years old at some level.
00:30:31
Caroline
there you go.
00:30:32
Caroline
That's yeah.
00:30:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Her growth as a person emotionally
00:30:35
Caroline
yeah
00:30:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah perhaps was stunted even more than we can possibly imagine.
00:30:40
Caroline
yeah
00:30:45
Caroline
yeah
00:30:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um I just feel like, you know, he, he, he murdered her in some ways, and she wanted to murder him back.
00:30:57
Caroline
yeah
00:30:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um Anyway, she felt entitled to kill him because he had killed her metaphorically in early October 2002, just weeks before the murder.
00:31:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And by now, you guessed it, she, or it's not a guess, it's she is going to kill Felix. Susan had traveled to Montana Because she had decided she's going to divorce Felix and she's going to plan a new place to live. And she decided, I'm going to live in Montana.
00:31:28
Caroline
Okay.
00:31:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she was going to divorce Felix. She would get support for her one remaining, you know, in the nest child named Gabriel, the youngest son. He went by Gabe.
00:31:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So i might call him Gabe. But when she was coming back from Montana, she actually called Felix and told him everything and threatened him with death by shotgun if he did not agree to her plan.
00:31:55
Caroline
She's enraged. I mean, she's having an episode. This is an episode. Like, she's enraged.
00:31:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's having a... she's got a duality now in her own mind that, you know, I'm going to i'm going to break free and I'm going to go back into the relationship and tell threaten him so that I can break free.
00:32:03
Caroline
That's it. Right.
00:32:12
Caroline
Right.
00:32:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's not freedom.
00:32:15
Caroline
that's just bad behavior. It's just bad strategy. It's bad, all the things, but I sympathize with her because like you said, this is a 14 year old really who's doing all this.
Accusations and Conspiracies
00:32:26
Caroline
No wonder like, you know,
00:32:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think so. i think so. Felix, who was 70 years old, agreed that they needed to divorce. So, hallelujah, you're going to get what you want.
00:32:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, I want to be on Susan's side here. But then Susan Polk was always making accusations about Felix, including that he was paying people to follow her.
00:32:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, was he or was she paranoid?
00:32:55
Caroline
<unk> know
00:32:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But that's what she started telling people. They already know how she's going to kill him. Well, they have several stories as to how she'll kill him. But, you know. But now she's telling everybody that he's following me. He's following me everywhere I go.
00:33:09
Caroline
Okay, well now I feel like that's paranoia.
00:33:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She told him.
00:33:12
Caroline
That's an actual sign of deteriorating mental health.
00:33:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Are you watching me? Well, actually, yes, you are.
00:33:21
Caroline
yeah Right, like everybody's out to get me. Yeah. like
00:33:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She told anyone who would listen that Felix was a Mossad agent, which is the seareal sea the Israeli secret police.
00:33:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's not a secret any anymore, but that's who that's who, they are Jewish. there there I didn't say that at the beginning because I don't didn't think until now in the story that it would be relevant But, you know, she is now telling people, he's got all of these people following me, and he gets these people because he is i actually a Mossad agent.
00:33:51
Caroline
Right.
00:34:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah And, oh, snap, up you know, the Jewish community in San Francisco might be wondering, do you know the Polks? Do you know what's going on with them?
00:34:13
Caroline
right
00:34:15
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:34:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Have you talked to her?
00:34:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Like, have you talked to him yet? And, you know, it was bad. So, the by the way, as I said, the Polks are Jewish. Well, Felix, as a child, had escaped with his parents from Nazi Germany to come to America.
00:34:32
Caroline
so Oh,
00:34:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, he was probably um in that mindset that you want to do everything you can to support the the the state of Israel.
00:34:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but This was the promised land and this was, you know, and also all during this time period, he's probably um active in helping his people.
00:34:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:34:52
Caroline
yeah
00:35:03
Caroline
Yeah, that's true. true
00:35:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm guessing. I didn't find any of that in the literature. I did find that he escaped Nazi Germany with his parents. So Susan had decided that he had prior knowledge of the 9-11 attack and went around telling everybody about that.
00:35:21
Caroline
Oh, my gosh. And that was really fresh. I mean, anyone who was around in the U.S. after 9-11 recognizes we were a different nation for quite some time.
00:35:32
Caroline
Very together. Very united. ah So interesting to be spouting off stuff like that. mean, that's pretty sensitive at that time.
00:35:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, yeah. He tried to poison her dogs. wet That was another round of accusations that he poured out. She poured out into the community of friends, neighbors, synagogue goers, everybody she could.
00:36:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm telling you, she had no boundaries about what's wrong with Felix.
00:36:07
Caroline
Well, acting as a 14-year-old, just like you said, Mom, I think this is really where that's coming from.
00:36:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. She's, she's, yeah. He tried to poison her dog. You know, her dogs meant a lot to her. She probably found the unconditional love that she needed um with from her dogs.
00:36:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and Now, I'm probably projecting myself onto her dogs.
00:36:34
Caroline
She loved those dogs.
00:36:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because i have always...
00:36:37
Caroline
Everybody loves dogs.
00:36:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I have always loved dogs and other animals because I just feel like they love me back.
00:36:44
Caroline
Yes.
00:36:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
so she was, she, I'll put it in a little basket called she was just spewing, spewing Mount Vesuvius, this vitriol to anyone and everyone with no evidence.
00:37:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Even if she went somewhere in public with Felix, she like they're at a dinner party.
00:37:10
Caroline
Wow.
00:37:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Felix has poisoned my dogs.
00:37:14
Caroline
What an awkward situation to be in
00:37:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know. Oh, yeah. Yes. Awkward. it' Very awkward. Then there was the final straw. Susan went to Montana with Gabriel, her youngest child, again.
00:37:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and they're, you know, they're moving. They're going to move.
00:37:31
Caroline
Okay.
00:37:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The divorce is on.
Legal Actions by Felix
00:37:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
While Susan was away in Montana, police learned that police learned something after the murder, but, you know, nobody knew about this until the murder came to light.
00:37:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
While she was away in Montana, Felix took steps against her in their divorce, including getting getting a restraining order to give him sole custody of their children and sole possession of their house.
00:38:04
Caroline
I mean, we've seen that before. before Like, you really, it's an unfortunate piece of this, but the people who know how to navigate the family court system, they're going to hurt the other party pretty severely in a way that's going to break you mentally if you weren't already.
00:38:20
Caroline
And as we know from Susan, yeah, that too.
00:38:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, it's going to bra bank you break your bank account, but Felix has unlimited funds for such a thing.
00:38:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:30
Caroline
Yeah, and and I'll say, i know it's the 2000s, but it's still very much like we were only at this time just coming out of a lot of the norms people would attribute to divorce, right? Like that it's pavers the husband and that the wife is, you know, sort of...
00:38:47
Caroline
i SOL and hopefully she's got some other man in her life to provide for. Like, I don't know. I know that she has a better shot at independence during this era in time, but not a, it's not like it is today where the expectation is we are all independent.
00:39:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, he because he she doesn't have independent wealth.
00:39:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:39:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He does.
00:39:06
Caroline
Right.
00:39:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, she there's a lot of literature in the literature about how controlling he was. Well, you know, if you tell me he's controlling, I'm banking that it's not just on her wardrobe.
00:39:17
Caroline
Right.
00:39:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I imagine that he gives her a, I'm going to spew this out of my mouth, even though it makes me so mad, but I would imagine that Felix is giving her an an allowance, like a 14-year-old.
00:39:28
Caroline
Right. yeah That's what, boom, mom, I think you are nailing it here. i think she was stunted, even though, and she got like this taste in college, but then was coerced back at, like, you know what I mean?
00:39:43
Caroline
i don't know.
00:39:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:39:44
Caroline
The whole thing is so sad for Susan, because I just think she was robbed of all of her potential, just yanked.
00:39:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely. So Felix managed to have her monthly payments also by this nice little visit to the family court while she was in Montana.
00:40:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was paying her $6,000 month. And he got it whittled down to $1,700 a month. How is she going to live on $1,700 a month in Montana?
00:40:11
Caroline
Ooh.
00:40:14
Caroline
She's not.
00:40:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When Susan discovered what Felix had done, she immediately co-opted her son Gabriel to help move all of her husband's belongings Now she's back in San Francisco, so she's telling him, we're kind of while he's out tonight, we're going to move all of his belongings into the guest house behind their home in San Francisco.
00:40:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now the two boys who are on their father's side told her, you can't do that. You can't do that. There's a restraining order against you.
00:40:46
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're not even supposed to be in this house.
00:40:50
Caroline
Right.
00:40:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um but she told Gabriel who helped her do it. I mean, what is Gabriel going to do? He doesn't know what to do.
00:40:57
Caroline
I feel bad for these kids because for the kids to even utter that out loud took a lot to their own mother.
00:40:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I know.
00:41:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, even Gabriel, during this move of all of his furniture while his back is turned, begged his mother to stop because he knew that there was a restraining order. he'd He was old enough to know about that.
00:41:13
Caroline
I feel so bad.
00:41:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She wasn't supposed to come anywhere near their house in San Francisco.
00:41:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And here she was taking furniture out of the house and putting it in the guest house where Felix can live. Then on October 2002, two thousand two Gabriel called 911 dispatchers in Orinda, California.
00:41:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's about 20 minutes from San Francisco. that's They lived in the suburbs. um They got this call from a 15-year-old boy around 9 p.m.
00:41:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he said, my mom shot my dad.
00:41:53
Caroline
Oh, poor Gabriel.
00:41:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was Gabriel Polk. This is what he said to dispatchers after he found His 70-year-old father, Dr. Felix Polk, did. Felix Polk was found in the main room of the pool house on his back, lying in blood, according to the police who responded to Gabe's 911 call.
00:42:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Gabe told police that he had been waiting to go to a baseball game with his dad that afternoon, but his father hadn't shown up. His mother said that he she didn't know where his father was. When Dr. Polk still wasn't back by 9 p.m., Gabe decided to check the pool house.
00:42:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Gabe told police his father was shot.
Discovery of Felix's Murder
00:42:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But an a an autopsy report showed that Dr. Polk actually passed about 22 hours prior to when his body was found.
00:42:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So while she was moving furniture out, he was already dead.
00:42:55
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:42:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He died of more than 20 stab wounds, including five to his torso. So looking for organs is this knife and this knife wielding Susan.
00:43:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He'd also been hit in the back of the head with a blunt object.
00:43:15
Caroline
Probably the first injury. No?
00:43:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, probably.
00:43:17
Caroline
Like she, yeah.
00:43:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She wanted to too rough disable him.
00:43:20
Caroline
render him unconscious.
00:43:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There were no signs of a struggle or a forced entry to the pool house. Gabe said in court that his parents were at each other's throats for the last four years, and it was hell.
00:43:35
Caroline
Oh, God.
00:43:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was hell in that house.
00:43:37
Caroline
That means from 11 to 15. This poor child. Oh, God.
00:43:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Susan's Mental Health and Legal Strategy
00:43:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Susan Polk was charged with murder. And her trial would take a very long way to commence. I mean, you know, you've got mental health issues that are going to have to be evaluated.
00:43:57
Caroline
Oh, Lord.
00:43:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You've got all of the evidence, um her stories, um evidence that would support her stories, which there were some.
00:44:08
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There was there was some.
00:44:11
Caroline
Oh, yeah. This is a messed up story. I mean, this is not clean at all.
00:44:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, it know it's going to take years.
00:44:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, we see in in recent court cases that, you court cases that are difficult, that are homicide-related, that are um complicated ah stories are definitely going to take a long time to come to fruition.
00:44:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And a lot of it was due to Susan, who was erratic, and she was going through evaluations and The evidence was just so tangled up as to why she murdered Felix.
00:44:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, her attorney obviously is going to want it to be, you know, self-defense.
00:44:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But she's the one who has been going out and telling everybody she's going to kill him.
00:44:57
Caroline
Trauma abuse.
00:45:01
Caroline
I know. God, what lot of crazy. stuff I mean, in the time frame, this spans to in our understanding of the human mind, human interactions, trauma, abuse, but you know, relationships, like the same span of time, that work, that body of work and understanding is exponentially shifted.
00:45:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean...
00:45:22
Caroline
So this is quite a messed up story. Yeah.
00:45:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is. It is. ah So Susan Polk is waiting for her trial, waiting for her trial. There's nothing that would shock anybody now.
00:45:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Really? Well, how about this? Susan Polk shocked everyone when she decided to fire her attorneys and represent herself.
00:45:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At her 22 week long murder trial in 2006. 22 weeks.
00:45:58
Caroline
22 weeks? Jeez.
00:46:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. yeah Yeah.
00:46:02
Caroline
In 2006? Jeez.
00:46:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
22 weeks is like ah five months.
00:46:03
Caroline
Oh
00:46:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. lot of witnesses.
00:46:08
Caroline
my God.
00:46:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
lot of testimony. lot of lot of. There were periods in the trial. Where some of her questioning was as good as I have ever seen. said her.
00:46:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
lawyer who is no longer her lawyer.
00:46:24
Caroline
Well, that's a compliment now, isn't it?
00:46:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:46:25
Caroline
They don't just hand those out.
00:46:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is a brilliant, this is a brilliant, this is magna cum laude.
00:46:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is Tolstoy.
00:46:33
Caroline
She could have been everything.
00:46:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She could have, she, yeah, she, it was taken from her Caroline at 14 years old.
00:46:39
Caroline
Well, we don't even know that because yeah he screwed her up from 14 on. So we don't know. We don't know if this was an underlying thing that would have propped up anyway with some other issue. We don't know if she would have been a brilliant president.
00:46:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:46:52
Caroline
I mean, we just will never know because of what Felix chose to do with her.
00:46:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, when you say she could have been president, I just want to point out that,
00:47:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um yeah, probably today she could. Because even, even, the thank you.
00:47:07
Caroline
Yeah, any literally anyone can now.
00:47:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So ah we're just going to leave it at that.
00:47:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah So her lawyer is just saying, you know, there were periods in the trial when some of her questioning was as good as I have ever heard. From anywhere, I mean.
00:47:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Some of her cross-examination was really, really good.
00:47:34
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:47:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But her decision to be her own attorney forced her to have to cross-examine her sons who were testifying against her in court.
00:47:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Remember, there are two of them who are on their daddy's side.
00:47:49
Caroline
Yeah. Yes. yes
00:47:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was almost like a train we wreck, this attorney said. They are basically being badgered by their own mother in front of the jury.
00:48:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It became three-ring circus when she called her middle child, Eli, to come to the stand and be her defense witness.
00:48:17
Caroline
Oh my God.
00:48:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So poor Gabriel...
00:48:19
Caroline
These poor kids. I just, I do feel for all of the kids. And this is why I want to know too. I want to know more about that first marriage and the first kids because is there any comparables or is a lot of this just really coming with Susan? I mean, I would want to know that a little bit.
Guilty Verdict and Sentencing
00:48:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It took the jury four days to come up with a verdict, finding Susan Polk guilty of the second-degree murder of her husband, Felix. They really sympathized with her, and they felt that based on what they had heard, she had to have just had a moment where, I've had it with you, stab, stab, stab, stab.
00:49:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
stab
00:49:01
Caroline
Oh, yeah, yeah. yeah
00:49:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She must have been out of her mind given the circumstances, not legally out of her mind.
00:49:08
Caroline
No, but it's that midlife thing. i told you i mean, i think that everyone does midlife crisis a little different, and I'm sad we gave it that moniker because it's really just a point of reflection.
00:49:20
Caroline
And it's a point of reflection that tends to always come with a pang of regret, let's say, a pang of what could have been, right? Like you're just reflecting on your life thus far.
00:49:31
Caroline
There's always a little bit of anger about choices made, choices you didn't have, right? available to make because of perhaps some other, I mean, this is just the way that humans tell their story, right? Someone else did this to me. this
00:49:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, yeah, or or it's just one more ah blunt instrument to beat yourself up with because whenever you're walking through life talking about most average, normal, everyday people, you're walking through your life, you're making choices on the fly.
00:49:43
Caroline
So.
00:49:59
Caroline
Yes.
00:50:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're doing the best you can. ah Some work out, some don't. And all you can do is just say, well, that was then and this is now. What do I want next?
00:50:09
Caroline
Right.
00:50:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And next is at 70 years old.
00:50:10
Caroline
Right.
00:50:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I will tell you my favorite word in the English language is next.
00:50:17
Caroline
Next. What's next? to Yes. I love that.
00:50:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What do want next?
00:50:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What do I want with day? can choose with this day
00:50:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i can choose and
00:50:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah She did not really get that progression. She did not get to, and neither did Felix, really. I mean, know at 70, he probably had some regrets.
00:50:37
Caroline
yeah
00:50:40
Caroline
Oh, yeah. he Well, but the science was telling him just how bad of a man he had been in his profession, really.
00:50:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But, he
00:50:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
although, you know, to his, you know, not to his defense, but You have to remember that it was a different world in the 1970s and things were permitted in his profession.
00:50:55
Caroline
Yes. Yeah.
00:50:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They were literally part of the regimen of ah working with a client toward, you know, mental health.
00:51:08
Caroline
yeah
00:51:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah as awful as these things are and as self-serving as his history is,
00:51:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:51:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think he was of a mindset that has been basically drawn and quartered and now it's illegal what he has done.
00:51:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And not long after this trial came out, some of the things that therapists do, um you know, were radically changed.
00:51:35
Caroline
yeah
00:51:40
Caroline
Well, good.
00:51:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um And it took probably a long time along the way. But anyway, His, so you know, her trial was a train wreck because of her doing brilliant work on the prosecution side of cross-examination, but terrible on building her defense because she had her little boy coming in and she had to, she was up there berating the other two.
00:52:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah you just are always going to be on his side. So she received a sentence of 16 years to life in prison. Now that may not seem much for murder, but remember, this jury would have found her not guilty by reason of insanity if she hadn't covered it up.
00:52:24
Caroline
Right.
00:52:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They but they they were wanting to do that, but you know the judge made it very clear that that that no she is not insane
00:52:32
Caroline
It wasn't available. Yeah.
00:52:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Insane people do not cover up their crimes.
00:52:40
Caroline
They don't make calculated moves.
00:52:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:52:43
Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I'm having a hard time, Caroline, deciding who to blame for this family murder that left a family shattered. I mean, she's still in her prison sentence.
00:52:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was denied parole in 2019. She's not eligible again until 2029.
00:53:05
Caroline
That's not that far off, but that was a long time away from 2019.
00:53:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah or Yes, and she was, um the the trial happened in 2006, so she's been in there 23 years.
00:53:17
Caroline
Wow.
00:53:20
Caroline
Wow.
00:53:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and she And she was in there for 16 years to life.
00:53:24
Caroline
How does, oh, to life. Okay, i was like, how did that happen?
00:53:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, what what that means is that 16 years, she has the chance to ah apply for parole.
00:53:27
Caroline
Well, okay, I,
00:53:34
Caroline
Okay. Okay.
00:53:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But then the second time, I mean, the but the parole board can give her a a bracket of when she can apply for parole again.
00:53:50
Caroline
And they went 10 years? That seems a little bit mean. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. I mean, they do that.
00:53:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. it I mean, her record in prison was not great. She...
00:53:58
Caroline
Oh, shoot.
00:53:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
shit
00:53:59
Caroline
Susan. Susan. that night
00:54:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, she she wasn't she wasn't violent, but you know you can imagine a a brilliant mind who's been ripped off in this life.
00:54:08
Caroline
Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. i don't i can't imagine the amount of enraged, just a energy she's had.
00:54:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that doesn't just go away. i mean, in prison, you know, she's going to transfer what has happened to her from Felix onto other people.
00:54:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:30
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:54:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, i and she's going to try to finagle way to beat the system.
00:54:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she's probably not good at rule following.
00:54:40
Caroline
Well, right. She's, yeah, this is a hard story, Mom.
00:54:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It'd be like me in prison. I'd never get out. I'm telling you.
00:54:46
Caroline
Oh, God.
00:54:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'll tell you right now. just would never get out. That's why I'm so good. I don't want to, I don't want to be a wreck.
00:54:52
Caroline
my line.
00:54:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I know. Anyway, I'm having a hard time here deciding who to blame.
00:54:57
Caroline
Yep.
00:54:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um This family was shattered, and by family, I mean the three boys. They are the real victims.
00:55:06
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I really don't know if it was mental illness or rage or both that caused Susan Polk to murder her husband just when she was starting to think for herself and going to Montana.
00:55:17
Caroline
I know, and she could have been a brilliant lawyer, apparently.
00:55:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jeez. She could have been anything she wanted to be, but she was still dealing with this, the ghost.
00:55:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and And Felix was but stabbing her in the back while she was traveling to Montana.
00:55:32
Caroline
Yes. That's right.
00:55:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think Felix made a tragic and fatal mistake when he tried to cheapskate his way through a divorce by sneaking into court when Susan was out of town.
00:55:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what I think about him.
00:55:48
Caroline
I think so too.
00:55:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Felix was a wealthy man. He, too, was out for revenge, in my opinion. But then there is the rape. The coercive control.
00:56:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to admit, it listeners, I do not feel sad for Felix Polk, and there was probably plenty good about him.
00:56:09
Caroline
Right. Right. Yep. Yep.
00:56:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I only feel sad for the family that survived, who had been forced to live with the catastrophe that was Felix and Susan Polk.
00:56:23
Caroline
Amen mama.
Shared Responsibility for Family's Destruction
00:56:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That is our story today. And for the first time in having this podcast, and this is our third season and we're more than midway through, I actually know where I stand on this murder.
00:56:43
Caroline
and
00:56:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, i think both of these people, and it's on Felix's back,
00:56:50
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:56:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He did things that he ought not to have done and he continued to do them just because he could.
00:56:56
Caroline
Yeah. i You know, i agree with you, Mom. i think the real victims here, like the real perpetrators are both Felix and Susan. And the real victims are all of the kids that are involved, including the kids from Felix's first marriage.
00:57:10
Caroline
I just think they inflicted both of them, Felix and Susan. Now, Susan likely directly as a result of the behavior of Felix towards her and the entrapment and just the coercive control and all the things. Yeah.
00:57:23
Caroline
But it doesn't matter because the actions they both took ended up ruining these kids' lives forever, right? These kids now have to climb out and build something different for themselves without parents and, you know, or without that quintessential piece of mom and dad, right? I'm sure, I'm hopeful that they have a lot of loving family members around them.
00:57:45
Caroline
However, Ugh. At such a young age to have to deal with this kind of trauma, it's exactly what caused Susan to to find herself in this position anyway. And so these poor kids, I just hope, are not dealing with that same tragedy, you know.
00:58:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, if I were on the parole board, i think I understand without having any facts. I don't know what was said at the parole board or how who what they deliberated about when they said, you know, we'll see in 10 years.
00:58:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:58:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But the what I do see is that maybe they were thinking about those the family, that, you know, she had
00:58:25
Caroline
Yeah, you're right.
00:58:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
choices. They weren't good choices, but they were choices.
00:58:32
Caroline
Right.
00:58:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Killing is not a choice and she should not have ever thought of it as a choice.
00:58:39
Caroline
Yep.
00:58:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's not something that Felix ever thought about doing to her that I can find.
00:58:43
Caroline
Yep. Yeah.
00:58:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He never threatened her life. He, um
00:58:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
well, it's kind of like I think about my mother and what she went through over, ah you know, she faked her, her, um her birth certificate in order to get a job during the Depression.
00:59:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then after that, she went into civil service and she worked her ass off. And she was in Europe and she was, you know, she really worked hard for her life.
00:59:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:15
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And to have society start paying women a little bit more,
00:59:23
Caroline
Right.
00:59:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um And that attracted men, and those men put her under their thumb. I really feel for my mom, but she didn't kill anybody.
00:59:31
Caroline
Immediately. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:59:36
Caroline
so and that was never something she was going to turn to either right yeah yeah
00:59:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, no, no. And um so all I know is that I'm not on Susan's side, but I blame
00:59:52
Caroline
no yeah
00:59:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Felix Polk for a lot of what happened.
Episode Conclusion and Reflection
01:00:00
Caroline
It's um the most messed up story I think we've ever covered, Mom. I am messed up.
01:00:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's a mouthful because, you know, what have we done? we copy ah Somebody who murdered his entire family so that he could be with a sex worker in another country on video.
01:00:17
Caroline
Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, we've done some messed up stuff, but this is by far the most tragically disturbing mess up we've covered.
01:00:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean,
01:00:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, way I would agree. This one is very much so ah a torment to try to figure out whether to blame the murderer for murdering.
01:00:38
Caroline
It's just rough.
01:00:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, I do blame her for murdering him.
01:00:41
Caroline
Yeah. She went a little too far off that deep end, but we all see why. if that makes it better.
01:00:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i I am so mad at Felix, so I'll just leave it at that.
01:00:51
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
01:00:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's dead, and I'm sorry about that, too, because it ruined everything for everybody, not that it wasn't already on fire.
01:01:00
Caroline
Yeah.
01:01:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject. Episodes are aired every other week.
01:01:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe. This helps new listeners find us. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you.
01:01:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And one other thing. Don't forget to live and let live. So goodbye, Caroline.
01:01:32
Caroline
Bye-bye.