Transcript
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Hello listeners, this is Bridget.
Caroline: And I'm Caroline.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Welcome, you're listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murderers. Caroline and I research and narrate each story and Andy is our producer.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Caroline and I try to figure out what is going on with this family at the center of our case. It's going be kind of easy and tough today. We know the ripple effect of family murder never ends. That is always true.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: We see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma. Listener discretion is advised. So, Caroline, today we're covering a very twisted relationship that destroyed two people.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That's the first tier of destruction. Then you've got, you know, the ripple effect.
Caroline: multiple yeah yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: One of them is alive and incarcerated for murder, and the man she murdered ruined her life beginning when she was 14 years old.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So for me, it is hard to know who did the worst thing between the two. and you know, since you and I are not trained in psychology...
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It is impossible to know really who is the bigger villain in this story. So here we go. We're in the San Francisco area for our murder.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, when I was just a kid, San Francisco represented flowers in your hair, smoking weed, hanging out with poets and singers and artists and sinners of all kinds.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It was nirvana until at some point it was not.
Caroline: and
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Susan Polk was born Susan May Bowling in 1957.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She never wanted to play with toys or other girls or do anything other than just read Tolstoy and such type books. She was a thinker big time.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And I would say that she might be an introvert and a deep thinker from the go. i think that's safe. She was riddled with angst about her parents' divorce.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That just messed her up. She just couldn't handle it that her parents were getting a divorce. And her teachers advised her mother to take 14-year-old Susan to see Dr. Felix Polk, a psychotherapist of well-repute the San Francisco circles dealing with different teens.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, Susan was having panic attacks that grew, grew and grew. She was just having them all the time. And yet here is where I want to just step in and take Susan from these people.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But getting one's head shrunk all the time was a fad in metro areas like New York, Chicago, L.A., and San Francisco. In fact, I heard Woody Allen tell some interviewer recently that he has had the same psychiatrist that he goes to almost every day ah for many, many years.
Caroline: Every day? i mean, wonder how that, I wonder, I just wonder what the psychologist's perspective is on that relationship.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I don't know, but and you know, I'll never know because of a little thing called money. So um maybe it's still in vogue, you know, to do that with.
Caroline: Oh, definitely. i think mental health has been a crisis for at least five years now.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: ah but the But I don't know that Americans like are trained in the art of advocating for themselves, which is what compels this story for me, because...
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Like, I don't know. It's just interesting. Divorce in the 70s, not super common. So I can see there being some angst there. Like, I remember as a kid, divvying that stuff up in elementary school.
Caroline: You're clocking whose parents are together and whose aren't. And it was a thing.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh, yeah. It was a thing.
Caroline: But I don't know. Like, no one teaches you how to go to a mental health therapist, even today.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No.
Caroline: They definitely, I don't even know that they were still, they would have called them foo-foo doctors back in the 70s still, wouldn't they?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No.
Caroline: Like, they were sort of...
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Head shrinkers.
Caroline: Head shrinkers. Yeah, it was like pejorative. So i don't know. i think it's stare definitely still in vogue, but I think it's covered by some of your medical benefits now, partially.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh, yeah. Well, it has to be in most states, in Washington state where we are. You have to, an insurance company must, if they want to practice in this, if they want to have customers in this state, they must ah pay psychological medical help at the same level as physical help.
Caroline: Oh, okay. Good.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So, um yeah, I mean, back in the 70s, it was just really different.
Caroline: That's great. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And our case today really started in 1972 when Dr. Felix Polk started treating Susan. Back then, the boundaries for counselors and psychotherapists were way different than they are today.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, when I say way, I mean way, way. As a psychotherapist, Dr. Polk was encouraged to take his patients ah to places like go to dinner with them.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I go to social events with them and you know, is that weird now? I mean, we that would not happen today.
Caroline: I think it's weird. I think it's weird, but I guess, ah you know, i i don't think I take a large enough pull of the universe around me, but it would be strange to me. But I guess I would assume Hollywood stars bring their therapist to things like that.
Caroline: ah I'm being stereotyping of rich people there. But yeah, i find that weird. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, you know, I was reading up on this story and I realized that as a as of as a kid, when I was a kid um or a young adult, my mother in Georgia was experiencing a great deal of what I would look at retrospectively as a sexism in the workplace, um being discounted by men.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She was in human resources in the for the federal government in Fort Benning, Georgia. And she had always, you know, been in charge of her own work.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But then as the salaries got a little bit better in human resource, here comes the man.
Caroline: you
Caroline: Oh.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And of course, you know, okay, yeah, yeah.
Caroline: Ruin everything. No.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And they started bumping her around and just leaving her out of meetings and all of the above. So my mother in Georgia in 1979,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: when she lost one of her grandchildren in a terrible accident, and I was living in Washington State with my own two kids and and you coming up next, I remember her telephone call to me the day that ah my nephew died.
Caroline: Thank you.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He was only 19 months old, and it was an accident. And one of the first things she told me on this telephone call was that her psychotherapist was at the house,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And she he was the first person she called to come over and help her with the news about this loss. So this was going on even in normal middle class families.
Caroline: That seems like a smart choice on your mom's part, honestly, because that that's the only place where I'm reading that and that feels very normal.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yep, yep.
Caroline: Like, just like you would bring a priest over, you're bringing in your therapist. I'm about to fall apart, you know?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes. But I got to tell you, I think today, if you called your counselor and said, you know, I've lost a loved one to an accident and I need you to come over to my house and help me work through it.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That that that that would not happen today.
Caroline: I don't know that that would happen. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No, no, no.
Caroline: I think you're probably right about that.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Maybe in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, big city like that, maybe. But not not. No, I don't really know.
Caroline: Well, I mean, honestly, let's put it in perspective. If we don't have regulations like that, I just want to throw out that Matt, what is his name? Oh my God, I'm forgetting. Chandler from Friends, that actor, Matt.
Caroline: Oh, I'm so mad at myself for not remembering. Anyway, he, it's recently turned that he didn't just die accidentally. He was murdered by the people around him due to negligence. And one of them was a doctor.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh, yeah. They were profiting from him and his addictions.
Caroline: Oh, so that's it. And so this is why it's important that we not, that we have these kinds of boundaries between the doctors and their patients because, you know, we're all fallible like that.
Caroline: And that that man lost his life.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes.
Caroline: So yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, when your dad died, you know, i had a hospice ah counselor.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So, I mean, she did come to my house until I was, you know, for years.
Caroline: Yeah. Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, she's still on my Facebook list.
Caroline: Yes.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But that's kind of different because she was contracting with a hospice.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And, you know, they will come to your house. So anyway, back to our story. Back to Dr. Felix Polk and his new teenage patient with whom he fell madly in love.
Caroline: Mm.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Caroline, Susan was 14. Felix was 39, and he was burie he was married with two young children. Nevertheless, within the next two years, he was very, very close to Susan, and according to Susan and her mother, dr Felix Polk first had sexual intercourse with Susan when she turned 16.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He did it as part of a quote-unquote session And Felix has never denied that. of course, he's dead now, but, you know, he never denied that.
Caroline: Well, he's a predator. My God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I know, but, you know, back then, doing stuff with your client, I mean, your patient was, you know, i don't, I doubt this is,
Caroline: Yeah. I do think about, well, I was going to say, if anyone's watched the series Mad Men, there's an episode early on. And I think I called you when I watched this because I was shocked.
Caroline: I didn't know this, but it was the, you know, 50s, 60s. And she's seeing a therapist. She's talking to her therapist. And then she leaves. The therapist calls the husband. The husband tells the husband everything.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes?
Caroline: I'm like, what? I was shocked. I was shook. But apparently...
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Caroline, in 1981 or 2, the year my mother died, um later I found out that the oncologist she was seeing told ah my father she was terminally ill but did not tell her.
Caroline: Oh, shocking. That seems like negligible on a lawsuit level. Like that's cruel. ah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, she, you know, back then they thought that men ruled the rule to the world. And this is why my mother wound up in a, and i ah there with a therapist is because of the way she was being treated.
Caroline: Right.
Caroline: With a therapist. yeah but
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: the
Caroline: Oh.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: with The problem with all of this at the time and the place, this wasn't called what it is now. It now, ah it is it is now three very dangerous circumstances. First of all, it would be criminal rape.
Caroline: yeah. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: A child of 16 has no way of giving consent, period, end of exercise.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: An adult today of 39 or older is committing rape of anyone under 18, no matter what the ridiculous claim is about consent. There is no consent with a child.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: by to an adult consenting that the adult have sex with her. The second problem is that today if a therapist has sex with a patient, that is also a crime and the doctor cannot keep it in his pants would lose his medical license today or a woman if it were to be a ah female therapist and a male client patient or female.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, nobody gets to do that. Nobody.
Caroline: Right. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um And there would be those legal criminal issues as well. And then the third problem with this, and I think in this case, the biggest problem, there is a big deal in mental health practice called transference.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, transference ah doesn't mean always that you've fallen in love with your therapist and you are stalking your therapist. It can mean that.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But there transference is a normal occurrence and emotional therapeutic work. And it aids the therapist in observing behaviors that then the therapist can bring the therapy session and say, ah this is what is going on.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You are transferring onto me feelings that you have about your father.
Caroline: Yeah. Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And so we need to talk about that relationship that you have with your real father.
Caroline: Right.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Or it could be you are transferring your feelings for me about your husband or your boyfriend.
Caroline: right
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah And that's okay because this gives me an opportunity to see how you relate in a girlfriend, boyfriend relationship. And then I can help you with feeling healthy about all of those things.
Caroline: Yeah. Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So transference is very important. But when a psychotherapist uses the transference as a signal, a green light to have sex,
Caroline: right
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And to be overly familiar with this person, that's a problem. And so I see in this case, ah transference was the biggest problem because I do not believe that Dr. Felix Polk handled the transference properly, even if it was legal what he did.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And it's not. Not today.
Caroline: Right? Yeah. no yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: What Dr. Felix Polk was doing was exploiting Susan, his patient, and becoming ah out he was forging what's called a dual relationship.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: In therapy, the dual relationship leads inevitably to a failure in one part of the duality, harming the other part of the the duality. So he's her therapist, but he's also her lover.
Caroline: Yeah, i can't can't do it. I mean, you already just saying that, you know that that's a conflict of interest right there.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: you
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah you there There's no way to be both. You cannot have both a doctor-patient relationship and a sexual and psychosexual relationship because of the demands of one role is overtaken eventually by the demands of the other.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You are either my psychotherapist or you are my lover, my boyfriend, and God forbid, my husband and father to my children. But that is what was happening here. So, of course, Susan was the victim.
Caroline: Yeah, she's so young. What would she know different?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: oh
Caroline: what would i mean, really, if you don't know different, like i I was watching something and people were like, we didn't know what it was supposed to look like. So this seemed fine. you know And it's like, that's very common. You know, if you don't know what something's supposed to look like, you're going to roll with it. Everybody else seems to be rolling with it.
Caroline: Well, okay.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I found in court papers about this case that the mother... felt that very strongly. And she let Dr. Polk know, you are manipulating my daughter in order to have sex.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You are, that is bad.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You should not be doing that. But she never called the police.
Caroline: Ah, dang. And to her credit, I mean, she recognized the, you know, read the room. She's in the seventies. A woman calling saying that the psychotherapist is going to have her committed. Like it's a scary situation for real. That makes me even more sad that her mom saw it all happening.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, of course, it is very sad, and I don't know all the details. I just know what her testimony was. So, um you know, she's probably riddled with guilt.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I doubt she's still alive, but if she is, she she she paid a price.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: When Susan graduated from high school, she was finally able to get free of Felix Polk because Susan began her college life, yeah and remember, she's very, very smart,
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Susan began her college life at Mills College and San Francisco State University. She graduated magna cum laude. That's so fantastic, except for the coercive control Dr. Felix Polk still had over Susan.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, coercive control, again, was not a term in the 1970s, but it is today. i mean, we're very aware of coercive control.
Caroline: Oh, yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um
Caroline: But 70s was like part and parcel. That was the formula for success was to manipulate people around you. I mean, no, like that kind of was like.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, and there were very few taboos in San Francisco.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And so, you know, the fact that you are a psychotherapist and you are clinging to this date that is also your client and your patient, I don't think
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: People were batting an eye over that. I don't.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Anyway, Susan did break up with Felix. She just got mad and she says, i'm I've had it with you. Leave me alone. She was midway through college and she was 20 years old when she did that.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She began therapy with a different psychotherapist. Now buckle up, Caroline, because she shared with this new therapist everything that had happened to her while she was a 14-year-old girl and thereafter.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But instead of calling the authorities or the state licensing organization for wayward psychotherapists, her new sir the therapist, who knew Felix personally, called his then-wife,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: A divorce ensued, and as soon as it did, in 1982, Susan and Felix, God forbid, got married.
Caroline: Oh my gosh.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, I believe, I believe, yes.
Caroline: Because like conflict, conflict, conflict. First of all, you know the person I'm talking about. You don't immediately stop this session.
Caroline: Sorry.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No, you're right.
Caroline: I'm upset.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Duality. I'm a friend of Felix's, and I'm your therapist. Duality.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, it's just so, it is so corrosive.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It is so toxic.
Caroline: poor Susan.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh.
Caroline: She's so smart, but every exit she turns to is like defective and they're defective, not her because she is on her way out, going to college, breaking it off, telling a new cycle.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: oh
Caroline: there These are all steps towards salvation for her. They should be towards protection, you know, justice. And instead it's like all part of the same hot mess.
Caroline: Oh God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, um I'm speculating here, but I don't think you have to be ah genius level speculator to to see the handwriting on the wall.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And that is when Felix's friend, the psychotherapist of current 20-year-old Susan, called the wife.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: The wife gave her husband an ultimatum. And he went to Susan, he, Felix, went to Susan, and said, well, you've busted up my marriage, telling my friend therapist about this, and ah now I'm going to be divorced, and, you know, look at what you've done.
Caroline: What you can, yes.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And that's coercive control.
Caroline: hundred percent 100%. Yes, you nailed it. I bet you that's exactly what happened.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So she married him. Susan recounts that she was very confused, and when she was proposed to by Felix in 1982, she He held sway over her that she couldn't resist, caving into his orders, course of control.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: They were married. He had divorced his wife and left her with the kids and got married before his spell on Susan began to wear thin.
Caroline: Well, I do want to just throw out, I don't know if you have it and maybe it'll come up later, but I want to know more from Felix's first wife. I want to know more from his first kids. I want to have conversations about what was he like? What was that like? What was going on? Was there ever a shift in things, in the dynamics?
Caroline: You know, did it end up looking a lot like what did it look like for Susan? Like I just had so many questions around that first marriage.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: i um I didn't hear from the wife in any of the literature that I read or the, you know, the records that I read. But i um I did see some things that the children of his first marriage had to say in court in support of their father.
Caroline: Okay.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And so they they they admired their father. they They loved their father. And they thought that ah Susan was cuckoo.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And two of her sons wound up thinking that too and came to court to tell that story.
Caroline: ah Just sad.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And she had three she had three sons. So ah she was confused. She married him. And this marriage, in my opinion, was a big stick of dynamite.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: that was you know had a very long fuse, but it was eventually going to blow up. No surprises there. But of course, there will be blood and there will be murder because we're talking about it on murder in the family.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: We're not talking about it because we want to talk about hearth, home, and only goodness.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: We want to talk about hearth, home, and and murder, and
Caroline: first moment Happy thoughts.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Homicide, homicide. Susan Polk had three wonderful sons with Felix. So that explains utterly to me why she stayed married to him as long as she did.
Caroline: Oh, yeah. I mean, once the kids are there, it's a different yeah universe.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, and she was a very welcoming of the other two children as well.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, you know, she was, she was,
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She was having a married life and she was making the best of it. And there were busy, busy years for her. Weekends packed with athletics and adventures on land and water.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah Felix was making very good money. he was quite wealthy, actually.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: However, behind closed doors, there was tension and volatility always because Felix's practice had made a lot of money and he was well regarded. The Polks were well off, and the boys idolized their father, although one of them was kind of a mama's boy from the go, the middle child, Eli, and he stood up for her in court, which is going to backfire on her. But anyway, um I mean, you know she's got a good life, but she hates Felix.
Caroline: Yeah, there's, I mean, that's not her fault.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: At some level, you know, she hates
Caroline: I mean, I want to say that, that that's not her fault, that that's a natural consequence of the trauma she is born out of. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're 14, let's all just for a moment, think back to when we were 14.
Caroline: Do you think the person sitting there imagining that 14 year old would relate in any way to that 14 year old? Maybe, maybe not.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No, I think it's safe to say that Felix had control of her from age 14 until the day he died.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And that's, that is trauma.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: he he She just could not seem to, i think she was starting to emerge in in that she was going to start driving her own bus, so to speak.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I heard that from a therapist one time. It was very good advice. Bridget, who is who is st driving your bus? When you imagine your life and pretend it's a bus, who's in control?
Caroline: That's C. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And um at that time, I think I might have answered because I was very young.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I think it's my mother.
Caroline: He's so so for Susan. She'd answer Felix and I'm trying to kick him out. Oh, my God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Absolutely. Toward the end of the 90s and in the beginning of the 2000s, there was nothing but threats of violence and worse at home.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Susan was intensely angry over Felix's control over her, and she was intensely acting out.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She started telling her boys, her friends, her mother, the checkout lady at the supermarket. um She would tell anybody and everybody, every chance she got that she needed to kill Felix, and this is how I planned to do it.
Caroline: um
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And she would make up these very vivid, long stories about how he was she was going to make him pay. And this was her therapy, apparently.
Caroline: Oh my God. Well, so, okay. This is, this is interesting because I think as a society, this is a shift we've seen because it's still what it's like the nineties, I mean, I guess people were still saying stuff like that and like people would let it, you know, slide. But I think about that the clock tower shooter. He was saying stuff like this too.
Caroline: I mean, maybe we ought to just always take it seriously from here on out.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Absolutely.
Caroline: If you're joking jokes on you.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah
Caroline: Cause I would take this so seriously. what you just said right it's never a joke about me right loose yeah yep
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Absolutely. Or distance yourself from any person who says such things. What if you press the wrong button at the checkout? You're dead? Is that what's going to happen?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, it's it's just she was kind of coming, ah loose you know, she she was having a thing in her, she it had, it was this stick of dynamite that had, the fuse was long, but it was lit.
Caroline: yep yeah yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And from 14 on, you know.
Caroline: I mean, that's the turmoil part. And she tried to get help in her 20s and she was dejected and trapped. And there's a part of me, mom, like you said, this is the fault.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Betrayed.
Caroline: Yeah, she was I feel for her because even when you have this great life and you make all your choices, there's a point after having kids in your 30s where you're like, I want to blow all of this up because what about me?
Caroline: I want to go have fun again. You know, you kind of get to this wall of what have I done what have I given up you know who's a like you just do it's that midlife thing I think everybody does but women in particular so for her she doesn't even have necessarily this regular i made all these choices to get here it was like everyone else got me here so I could see her having a real mental breakdown at this point you know
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes, I mean, I actually think you just said something that clarifies for me maybe what she's doing when she's telling everybody, I'm going to kill Felix and this is how I'm going to do it.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And I think that she was doing that as like maybe the first decision that she could possibly make on her own.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: That's it.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And, you know, when I think back to all of these things that she was telling friends, you know, telling her sons, terrible boundary crossing there, and that she needed to kill Felix, and this is how she's going to do it.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Totally.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I think she made it clear that she was entitled to do so after everything he had done to her.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: See what I mean? She's having a real episode right now about, yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He killed me. Why can't I kill him back?
Caroline: Like he ruined everything. And in the 90s and 2000s, there is literature showing how bad his actions were now. Like we do see how bad these things were.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She can't go to another therapist and get help, can she?
Caroline: No, the first time she did it, it blew everything up in the worst. That's what I'm saying. She's got to feel so trapped. I just, I, there's a part of me that's having some empathy right now, emotional empathy for her.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, you know what? I've got you right where I want you because and now I'm not alone.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, that's why i said I said something I've never said before at the beginning of the episode, which is I don't know who is the worst villain here.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: I see now why you said that because i you know, if you really for a moment kind of read through her story and the choices and even not knowing a lot of the stuff that I do have questions about. wow, she got trapped.
Caroline: And wow, like she's flailing now. Like she's like trapped in a room ah for decades, no light. And so now she's recognizing I can break free from this.
Caroline: I'm gonna break free for, you know, I mean, I just, it's, it's a psychotic breakdown of sorts, but well, yeah, you're,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yep. Well, the part about telling people, I mean, you know, she's still 14 years old at some level.
Caroline: there you go.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Her growth as a person emotionally
Caroline: That's yeah.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah perhaps was stunted even more than we can possibly imagine.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And um I just feel like, you know, he, he, he murdered her in some ways, and she wanted to murder him back.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um Anyway, she felt entitled to kill him because he had killed her metaphorically in early October 2002, just weeks before the murder.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And by now, you guessed it, she, or it's not a guess, it's she is going to kill Felix. Susan had traveled to Montana Because she had decided she's going to divorce Felix and she's going to plan a new place to live. And she decided, I'm going to live in Montana.
Caroline: Okay.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So she was going to divorce Felix. She would get support for her one remaining, you know, in the nest child named Gabriel, the youngest son. He went by Gabe.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So i might call him Gabe. But when she was coming back from Montana, she actually called Felix and told him everything and threatened him with death by shotgun if he did not agree to her plan.
Caroline: She's enraged. I mean, she's having an episode. This is an episode. Like, she's enraged.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She's having a... she's got a duality now in her own mind that, you know, I'm going to i'm going to break free and I'm going to go back into the relationship and tell threaten him so that I can break free.
Caroline: That's it. Right.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, that's not freedom.
Caroline: that's just bad behavior. It's just bad strategy. It's bad, all the things, but I sympathize with her because like you said, this is a 14 year old really who's doing all this.
Caroline: No wonder like, you know,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I think so. i think so. Felix, who was 70 years old, agreed that they needed to divorce. So, hallelujah, you're going to get what you want.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, I want to be on Susan's side here. But then Susan Polk was always making accusations about Felix, including that he was paying people to follow her.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, was he or was she paranoid?
Caroline: <unk> know
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But that's what she started telling people. They already know how she's going to kill him. Well, they have several stories as to how she'll kill him. But, you know. But now she's telling everybody that he's following me. He's following me everywhere I go.
Caroline: Okay, well now I feel like that's paranoia.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She told him.
Caroline: That's an actual sign of deteriorating mental health.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Are you watching me? Well, actually, yes, you are.
Caroline: yeah Right, like everybody's out to get me. Yeah. like
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She told anyone who would listen that Felix was a Mossad agent, which is the seareal sea the Israeli secret police.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It's not a secret any anymore, but that's who that's who, they are Jewish. there there I didn't say that at the beginning because I don't didn't think until now in the story that it would be relevant But, you know, she is now telling people, he's got all of these people following me, and he gets these people because he is i actually a Mossad agent.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah And, oh, snap, up you know, the Jewish community in San Francisco might be wondering, do you know the Polks? Do you know what's going on with them?
Caroline: right
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Have you talked to her?
Caroline: Oh my gosh.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Like, have you talked to him yet? And, you know, it was bad. So, the by the way, as I said, the Polks are Jewish. Well, Felix, as a child, had escaped with his parents from Nazi Germany to come to America.
Caroline: so Oh,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So, I mean, you know, he was probably um in that mindset that you want to do everything you can to support the the the state of Israel.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: but This was the promised land and this was, you know, and also all during this time period, he's probably um active in helping his people.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: Yeah, that's true. true
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I'm guessing. I didn't find any of that in the literature. I did find that he escaped Nazi Germany with his parents. So Susan had decided that he had prior knowledge of the 9-11 attack and went around telling everybody about that.
Caroline: Oh, my gosh. And that was really fresh. I mean, anyone who was around in the U.S. after 9-11 recognizes we were a different nation for quite some time.
Caroline: Very together. Very united. ah So interesting to be spouting off stuff like that. mean, that's pretty sensitive at that time.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, yeah. He tried to poison her dogs. wet That was another round of accusations that he poured out. She poured out into the community of friends, neighbors, synagogue goers, everybody she could.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I'm telling you, she had no boundaries about what's wrong with Felix.
Caroline: Well, acting as a 14-year-old, just like you said, Mom, I think this is really where that's coming from.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. She's, she's, yeah. He tried to poison her dog. You know, her dogs meant a lot to her. She probably found the unconditional love that she needed um with from her dogs.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: and Now, I'm probably projecting myself onto her dogs.
Caroline: She loved those dogs.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Because i have always...
Caroline: Everybody loves dogs.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I have always loved dogs and other animals because I just feel like they love me back.
Caroline: Yes.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: so she was, she, I'll put it in a little basket called she was just spewing, spewing Mount Vesuvius, this vitriol to anyone and everyone with no evidence.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Even if she went somewhere in public with Felix, she like they're at a dinner party.
Caroline: Wow.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Felix has poisoned my dogs.
Caroline: What an awkward situation to be in
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, you know. Oh, yeah. Yes. Awkward. it' Very awkward. Then there was the final straw. Susan went to Montana with Gabriel, her youngest child, again.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: and they're, you know, they're moving. They're going to move.
Caroline: Okay.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: The divorce is on. While Susan was away in Montana, police learned that police learned something after the murder, but, you know, nobody knew about this until the murder came to light.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: While she was away in Montana, Felix took steps against her in their divorce, including getting getting a restraining order to give him sole custody of their children and sole possession of their house.
Caroline: I mean, we've seen that before. before Like, you really, it's an unfortunate piece of this, but the people who know how to navigate the family court system, they're going to hurt the other party pretty severely in a way that's going to break you mentally if you weren't already.
Caroline: And as we know from Susan, yeah, that too.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, it's going to bra bank you break your bank account, but Felix has unlimited funds for such a thing.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah, and and I'll say, i know it's the 2000s, but it's still very much like we were only at this time just coming out of a lot of the norms people would attribute to divorce, right? Like that it's pavers the husband and that the wife is, you know, sort of...
Caroline: i SOL and hopefully she's got some other man in her life to provide for. Like, I don't know. I know that she has a better shot at independence during this era in time, but not a, it's not like it is today where the expectation is we are all independent.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No, he because he she doesn't have independent wealth.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He does.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And, you know, she there's a lot of literature in the literature about how controlling he was. Well, you know, if you tell me he's controlling, I'm banking that it's not just on her wardrobe.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I imagine that he gives her a, I'm going to spew this out of my mouth, even though it makes me so mad, but I would imagine that Felix is giving her an an allowance, like a 14-year-old.
Caroline: Right. yeah That's what, boom, mom, I think you are nailing it here. i think she was stunted, even though, and she got like this taste in college, but then was coerced back at, like, you know what I mean?
Caroline: i don't know.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh, yeah.
Caroline: The whole thing is so sad for Susan, because I just think she was robbed of all of her potential, just yanked.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Absolutely. So Felix managed to have her monthly payments also by this nice little visit to the family court while she was in Montana.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He was paying her $6,000 month. And he got it whittled down to $1,700 a month. How is she going to live on $1,700 a month in Montana?
Caroline: Ooh.
Caroline: She's not.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: When Susan discovered what Felix had done, she immediately co-opted her son Gabriel to help move all of her husband's belongings Now she's back in San Francisco, so she's telling him, we're kind of while he's out tonight, we're going to move all of his belongings into the guest house behind their home in San Francisco.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now the two boys who are on their father's side told her, you can't do that. You can't do that. There's a restraining order against you.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You're not even supposed to be in this house.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um but she told Gabriel who helped her do it. I mean, what is Gabriel going to do? He doesn't know what to do.
Caroline: I feel bad for these kids because for the kids to even utter that out loud took a lot to their own mother.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I know.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You know, even Gabriel, during this move of all of his furniture while his back is turned, begged his mother to stop because he knew that there was a restraining order. he'd He was old enough to know about that.
Caroline: I feel so bad.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She wasn't supposed to come anywhere near their house in San Francisco.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And here she was taking furniture out of the house and putting it in the guest house where Felix can live. Then on October 2002, two thousand two Gabriel called 911 dispatchers in Orinda, California.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That's about 20 minutes from San Francisco. that's They lived in the suburbs. um They got this call from a 15-year-old boy around 9 p.m.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And he said, my mom shot my dad.
Caroline: Oh, poor Gabriel.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It was Gabriel Polk. This is what he said to dispatchers after he found His 70-year-old father, Dr. Felix Polk, did. Felix Polk was found in the main room of the pool house on his back, lying in blood, according to the police who responded to Gabe's 911 call.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Gabe told police that he had been waiting to go to a baseball game with his dad that afternoon, but his father hadn't shown up. His mother said that he she didn't know where his father was. When Dr. Polk still wasn't back by 9 p.m., Gabe decided to check the pool house.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So Gabe told police his father was shot. But an a an autopsy report showed that Dr. Polk actually passed about 22 hours prior to when his body was found.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So while she was moving furniture out, he was already dead.
Caroline: Oh my gosh.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He died of more than 20 stab wounds, including five to his torso. So looking for organs is this knife and this knife wielding Susan.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He'd also been hit in the back of the head with a blunt object.
Caroline: Probably the first injury. No?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, probably.
Caroline: Like she, yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She wanted to too rough disable him.
Caroline: render him unconscious.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: There were no signs of a struggle or a forced entry to the pool house. Gabe said in court that his parents were at each other's throats for the last four years, and it was hell.
Caroline: Oh, God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It was hell in that house.
Caroline: That means from 11 to 15. This poor child. Oh, God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: yeah yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So Susan Polk was charged with murder. And her trial would take a very long way to commence. I mean, you know, you've got mental health issues that are going to have to be evaluated.
Caroline: Oh, Lord.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You've got all of the evidence, um her stories, um evidence that would support her stories, which there were some.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: There was there was some.
Caroline: Oh, yeah. This is a messed up story. I mean, this is not clean at all.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, it know it's going to take years.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And, you know, we see in in recent court cases that, you court cases that are difficult, that are homicide-related, that are um complicated ah stories are definitely going to take a long time to come to fruition.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And a lot of it was due to Susan, who was erratic, and she was going through evaluations and The evidence was just so tangled up as to why she murdered Felix.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So, I mean, you know, her attorney obviously is going to want it to be, you know, self-defense.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But she's the one who has been going out and telling everybody she's going to kill him.
Caroline: Trauma abuse.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So, I mean...
Caroline: I know. God, what lot of crazy. stuff I mean, in the time frame, this spans to in our understanding of the human mind, human interactions, trauma, abuse, but you know, relationships, like the same span of time, that work, that body of work and understanding is exponentially shifted.
Caroline: So this is quite a messed up story. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It is. It is. ah So Susan Polk is waiting for her trial, waiting for her trial. There's nothing that would shock anybody now.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Really? Well, how about this? Susan Polk shocked everyone when she decided to fire her attorneys and represent herself.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: At her 22 week long murder trial in 2006. 22 weeks.
Caroline: 22 weeks? Jeez.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah. yeah Yeah.
Caroline: In 2006? Jeez.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: 22 weeks is like ah five months.
Caroline: Oh
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. lot of witnesses.
Caroline: my God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: lot of testimony. lot of lot of. There were periods in the trial. Where some of her questioning was as good as I have ever seen. said her.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: lawyer who is no longer her lawyer.
Caroline: Well, that's a compliment now, isn't it?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Oh yeah.
Caroline: They don't just hand those out.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: This is a brilliant, this is a brilliant, this is magna cum laude.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: This is Tolstoy.
Caroline: She could have been everything.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She could have, she, yeah, she, it was taken from her Caroline at 14 years old.
Caroline: Well, we don't even know that because yeah he screwed her up from 14 on. So we don't know. We don't know if this was an underlying thing that would have propped up anyway with some other issue. We don't know if she would have been a brilliant president.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Right.
Caroline: I mean, we just will never know because of what Felix chose to do with her.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Now, when you say she could have been president, I just want to point out that,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um yeah, probably today she could. Because even, even, the thank you.
Caroline: Yeah, any literally anyone can now.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So ah we're just going to leave it at that.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah So her lawyer is just saying, you know, there were periods in the trial when some of her questioning was as good as I have ever heard. From anywhere, I mean.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Some of her cross-examination was really, really good.
Caroline: Oh, wow.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But her decision to be her own attorney forced her to have to cross-examine her sons who were testifying against her in court.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Remember, there are two of them who are on their daddy's side.
Caroline: Yeah. Yes. yes
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It was almost like a train we wreck, this attorney said. They are basically being badgered by their own mother in front of the jury.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It became three-ring circus when she called her middle child, Eli, to come to the stand and be her defense witness.
Caroline: Oh my God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So poor Gabriel...
Caroline: These poor kids. I just, I do feel for all of the kids. And this is why I want to know too. I want to know more about that first marriage and the first kids because is there any comparables or is a lot of this just really coming with Susan? I mean, I would want to know that a little bit.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It took the jury four days to come up with a verdict, finding Susan Polk guilty of the second-degree murder of her husband, Felix. They really sympathized with her, and they felt that based on what they had heard, she had to have just had a moment where, I've had it with you, stab, stab, stab, stab.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: stab
Caroline: Oh, yeah, yeah. yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She must have been out of her mind given the circumstances, not legally out of her mind.
Caroline: No, but it's that midlife thing. i told you i mean, i think that everyone does midlife crisis a little different, and I'm sad we gave it that moniker because it's really just a point of reflection.
Caroline: And it's a point of reflection that tends to always come with a pang of regret, let's say, a pang of what could have been, right? Like you're just reflecting on your life thus far.
Caroline: There's always a little bit of anger about choices made, choices you didn't have, right? available to make because of perhaps some other, I mean, this is just the way that humans tell their story, right? Someone else did this to me. this
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, yeah, or or it's just one more ah blunt instrument to beat yourself up with because whenever you're walking through life talking about most average, normal, everyday people, you're walking through your life, you're making choices on the fly.
Caroline: So.
Caroline: Yes.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You're doing the best you can. ah Some work out, some don't. And all you can do is just say, well, that was then and this is now. What do I want next?
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And next is at 70 years old.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I will tell you my favorite word in the English language is next.
Caroline: Next. What's next? to Yes. I love that.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: What do want next?
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: What do I want with day? can choose with this day
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: i can choose and
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah She did not really get that progression. She did not get to, and neither did Felix, really. I mean, know at 70, he probably had some regrets.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: Oh, yeah. he Well, but the science was telling him just how bad of a man he had been in his profession, really.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But, he
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: although, you know, to his, you know, not to his defense, but You have to remember that it was a different world in the 1970s and things were permitted in his profession.
Caroline: Yes. Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: They were literally part of the regimen of ah working with a client toward, you know, mental health.
Caroline: yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And ah as awful as these things are and as self-serving as his history is,
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I think he was of a mindset that has been basically drawn and quartered and now it's illegal what he has done.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And not long after this trial came out, some of the things that therapists do, um you know, were radically changed.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: Well, good.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um And it took probably a long time along the way. But anyway, His, so you know, her trial was a train wreck because of her doing brilliant work on the prosecution side of cross-examination, but terrible on building her defense because she had her little boy coming in and she had to, she was up there berating the other two.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: ah you just are always going to be on his side. So she received a sentence of 16 years to life in prison. Now that may not seem much for murder, but remember, this jury would have found her not guilty by reason of insanity if she hadn't covered it up.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: They but they they were wanting to do that, but you know the judge made it very clear that that that no she is not insane
Caroline: It wasn't available. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Insane people do not cover up their crimes.
Caroline: They don't make calculated moves.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Right.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So I'm having a hard time, Caroline, deciding who to blame for this family murder that left a family shattered. I mean, she's still in her prison sentence.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: She was denied parole in 2019. She's not eligible again until 2029.
Caroline: That's not that far off, but that was a long time away from 2019.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: yeah or Yes, and she was, um the the trial happened in 2006, so she's been in there 23 years.
Caroline: Wow.
Caroline: Wow.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: and she And she was in there for 16 years to life.
Caroline: How does, oh, to life. Okay, i was like, how did that happen?
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, what what that means is that 16 years, she has the chance to ah apply for parole.
Caroline: Well, okay, I,
Caroline: Okay. Okay.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But then the second time, I mean, the but the parole board can give her a a bracket of when she can apply for parole again.
Caroline: And they went 10 years? That seems a little bit mean. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. I mean, they do that.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Right. it I mean, her record in prison was not great. She...
Caroline: Oh, shoot.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: shit
Caroline: Susan. Susan. that night
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean, she she wasn't she wasn't violent, but you know you can imagine a a brilliant mind who's been ripped off in this life.
Caroline: Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. i don't i can't imagine the amount of enraged, just a energy she's had.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, that doesn't just go away. i mean, in prison, you know, she's going to transfer what has happened to her from Felix onto other people.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And so, i and she's going to try to finagle way to beat the system.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So she's probably not good at rule following.
Caroline: Well, right. She's, yeah, this is a hard story, Mom.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: It'd be like me in prison. I'd never get out. I'm telling you.
Caroline: Oh, God.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I'll tell you right now. just would never get out. That's why I'm so good. I don't want to, I don't want to be a wreck.
Caroline: my line.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I know. Anyway, I'm having a hard time here deciding who to blame.
Caroline: Yep.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um This family was shattered, and by family, I mean the three boys. They are the real victims.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I really don't know if it was mental illness or rage or both that caused Susan Polk to murder her husband just when she was starting to think for herself and going to Montana.
Caroline: I know, and she could have been a brilliant lawyer, apparently.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Jeez. She could have been anything she wanted to be, but she was still dealing with this, the ghost.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: and And Felix was but stabbing her in the back while she was traveling to Montana.
Caroline: Yes. That's right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I think Felix made a tragic and fatal mistake when he tried to cheapskate his way through a divorce by sneaking into court when Susan was out of town.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That's what I think about him.
Caroline: I think so too.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Felix was a wealthy man. He, too, was out for revenge, in my opinion. But then there is the rape. The coercive control.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I'm going to admit, it listeners, I do not feel sad for Felix Polk, and there was probably plenty good about him.
Caroline: Right. Right. Yep. Yep.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I only feel sad for the family that survived, who had been forced to live with the catastrophe that was Felix and Susan Polk.
Caroline: Amen mama.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That is our story today. And for the first time in having this podcast, and this is our third season and we're more than midway through, I actually know where I stand on this murder.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: You know, i think both of these people, and it's on Felix's back,
Caroline: and
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He did things that he ought not to have done and he continued to do them just because he could.
Caroline: Yeah. i You know, i agree with you, Mom. i think the real victims here, like the real perpetrators are both Felix and Susan. And the real victims are all of the kids that are involved, including the kids from Felix's first marriage.
Caroline: I just think they inflicted both of them, Felix and Susan. Now, Susan likely directly as a result of the behavior of Felix towards her and the entrapment and just the coercive control and all the things. Yeah.
Caroline: But it doesn't matter because the actions they both took ended up ruining these kids' lives forever, right? These kids now have to climb out and build something different for themselves without parents and, you know, or without that quintessential piece of mom and dad, right? I'm sure, I'm hopeful that they have a lot of loving family members around them.
Caroline: However, Ugh. At such a young age to have to deal with this kind of trauma, it's exactly what caused Susan to to find herself in this position anyway. And so these poor kids, I just hope, are not dealing with that same tragedy, you know.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yeah, I mean, if I were on the parole board, i think I understand without having any facts. I don't know what was said at the parole board or how who what they deliberated about when they said, you know, we'll see in 10 years.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: But the what I do see is that maybe they were thinking about those the family, that, you know, she had
Caroline: Yeah, you're right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: choices. They weren't good choices, but they were choices.
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Killing is not a choice and she should not have ever thought of it as a choice.
Caroline: Yep.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: That's not something that Felix ever thought about doing to her that I can find.
Caroline: Yep. Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He never threatened her life. He, um
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: well, it's kind of like I think about my mother and what she went through over, ah you know, she faked her, her, um her birth certificate in order to get a job during the Depression.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And then after that, she went into civil service and she worked her ass off. And she was in Europe and she was, you know, she really worked hard for her life.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And to have society start paying women a little bit more,
Caroline: Right.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: um And that attracted men, and those men put her under their thumb. I really feel for my mom, but she didn't kill anybody.
Caroline: Immediately. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Caroline: so and that was never something she was going to turn to either right yeah yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: No, no, no. And um so all I know is that I'm not on Susan's side, but I blame
Caroline: no yeah
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Felix Polk for a lot of what happened.
Caroline: It's um the most messed up story I think we've ever covered, Mom. I am messed up.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Well, that's a mouthful because, you know, what have we done? we copy ah Somebody who murdered his entire family so that he could be with a sex worker in another country on video.
Caroline: Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, we've done some messed up stuff, but this is by far the most tragically disturbing mess up we've covered.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: I mean,
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes, way I would agree. This one is very much so ah a torment to try to figure out whether to blame the murderer for murdering.
Caroline: It's just rough.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Yes, I do blame her for murdering him.
Caroline: Yeah. She went a little too far off that deep end, but we all see why. if that makes it better.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: i I am so mad at Felix, so I'll just leave it at that.
Caroline: Oh, yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: He's dead, and I'm sorry about that, too, because it ruined everything for everybody, not that it wasn't already on fire.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: So our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject. Episodes are aired every other week.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe. This helps new listeners find us. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you.
Andy, Bridget and Caroline: And one other thing. Don't forget to live and let live. So goodbye, Caroline.
Caroline: Bye-bye.
