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Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell Young
56 Plays4 months ago
What can a parent do with a child who is into crime and drugs? This family had two parents who did everything in their power to help their son, but in the end he tried to kill the entire family. He wound up killing just some of them and disabling the rest. And they still love him.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hearth Home and Homicide
00:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello listeners, welcome. I'm Bridget.
00:00:05
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I research and narrate each story. Andy is our producer.
00:00:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline and I try to figure out what is going on with the family at the center of the case. We know the ripple effect of family murder never ends. We see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma.
00:00:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Listener discretion is advised.
Cipriano Family Murder Case
00:00:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Caroline, today we're going to a beautiful part of Michigan called Farmington Hills.
00:00:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Michigan. It's a beautiful town. lot of money in that town. Beautiful homes, wonderful families. And, you know, by all accounts, it's what, you know, it's kind of like what we, most people aspire to.
00:01:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was on April 16th, 2012, Robert Cipriano was murdered by 20-year-old Mitchell Young and 19-year-old Tucker Cipriano, his son.
00:01:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
in the family home in Farmington Hills, Michigan. Tucker and Young, ah Tucker and, excuse me, Mitchell Young, also attacked Tucker's mother, Rosemary, his 17-year-old brother, Salvatore, seriously injuring them. And when I say serious, I mean irreparably.
00:01:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A sister and a brother, Salvatore's twin, escaped the carnage. So the sister is the youngest of the family. She escaped the carnage. We're going to talk about that. And Salvatore's twin also escaped ah carnage and was able to bring the police to bear on the ah violence that was going on.
Brain Development and Young Offenders
00:02:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This case happened 13 years ago, and I remember watching the investigation and the legal proceedings moving forward. This was long before you and I and and Andy decided to find and tell stories of hearth, home, and homicide.
00:02:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At the time, it for me anyway, it brought up issues of what is the culpability of vulnerable young people?
00:02:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:02:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We know now more than ever that the brain is still forming until somewhere around 23 to 28 years of age. So there's a variance there and it's, you know, people land on 26-ish, you know.
00:02:43
Caroline
yeah
00:02:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Does the lesson, does that lesson like the culpability of our killers in this story? They were 19 and The the 19-year-old.
00:02:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
tucker was the nineteen year old
00:03:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think in modern times, some sentences can end earlier under some of the new youthful offender laws. And I have to say, I'm a proponent of that.
00:03:12
Caroline
Yeah, I mean, the whole point of a corrections system within all societies is rehabilitation. The very small component of it that is intended to house long term is totally not the premise of those institutions, I think. So I agree with you.
00:03:28
Caroline
i think 23 to 28 years of age, I mean, that's so late. I would even venture to say some folks never complete the process. But I mean, I don't know.
00:03:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And some become, you know, powerful people.
00:03:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So ah i figured this was a good time to talk about this murder with our listeners and um and the attempted murder on our podcast.
00:03:41
Caroline
Yep.
00:03:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it is a murder that also involved attempted murder because of the multiple parties involved. Because I think this is a good time because our society is already currently talking a lot about, for example, the Menendez brothers.
00:04:05
Caroline
Right.
00:04:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, they were sentenced to life without parole, but they were about this age when that happened, and now we're talking about setting them free after 35 years.
00:04:09
Caroline
Yes.
00:04:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
True. True.
00:04:16
Caroline
Oh, yeah. And there are layers upon layers of reasoning behind that, around the specifics of the perpetration of that crime.
00:04:25
Caroline
I mean, it's interesting conversation.
00:04:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
true
00:04:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is very interesting. So we want to talk about it, and our we can begin by our talking about Robert and Rosemary Cipriano.
Bob and Rose Cipriano's Family Background
00:04:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You could say that the marriage between Robert and Rosemary was kismet, meant to be.
00:04:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They really put together a perfect family, and they loved their family deeply. Robert Cipriano was born November 30, 1959, the third of sons,
00:04:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the third of six sons Robert, known as Bob to most, so we're going to be referring to him as Bob in this episode. He first went to school at Our Lady of Grace Catholic School before going on to Bishop Bojry's High School. So it's Bishop beaugeries high school so it's a bishop Connection High School.
00:05:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Following his graduation, but I, you know, I did think that it was important to mention that he went to parochial school his entire pre-college time.
00:05:38
Caroline
Oh.
00:05:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob went on to study at Central Michigan University. His parents instilled values in all of their children. And from the get-go, Bob was going to grow into a loving, devoted, and committed man.
00:05:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob loved life itself, his family, his friends, his religion, his work, Bob was also extremely athletic. He played football, baseball, badminton, swimming, and on and on. You could not ask him to a physical sport that he was not into. I'm sure he played tennis. I bet you maybe he golfed, although that's not as physical as he may have needed. I don't know.
00:06:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
On the 17th of September, 1988, married Rosemary Trahaugh. bob married rosemary traha They decided to get married when they realized that they both wanted a traditional family, good careers, community engagement, with faith at the center.
00:06:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Rosemary was called Rose, so we will use that name for her. They were both generous, fun, athletic, and community-oriented people. The couple were described as deeply in love with one another.
00:06:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it seemed like a match made in heaven. And nothing ever happened to them that their marriage and love for one another would not get them through. this This is who we're talking about today.
00:07:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the you know, the lovely family of these two committed, good people.
00:07:19
Caroline
Yeah, they sound like good members of the the community that they're in and people.
00:07:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, the Cipriano family is at the heart of this story. Bob and Rose Cipriano were establishing their marriage and careers for the first few years of their marriage.
00:07:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob wound up working as a school administrator after college. Rose was a school librarian. And in another article, I read that later she became a dearly loved community fitness instructor.
00:07:53
Caroline
Yeah. fun
00:07:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is somebody who is, um both of them are following the path of service.
00:08:02
Caroline
yeah
00:08:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They were vital members of their community. Farmington is a well-off community, and there were loads of community events to host, celebrate, and participate in. lot of fundraisers to participate in.
Tucker Cipriano's Adoption and Struggles
00:08:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Finally, after five years of marriage, they decided to adopt a baby boy who had been abandoned by his birth mother ah at age three days old
00:08:31
Caroline
Oh.
00:08:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker Cipriano was home in his adopted home by day three. The love and support he received from the Cipriano family and the community was everything to them and the extended family.
00:08:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what we have here is like a community triumph over um whatever sadness was going on with this mother And the fact that the Ciprianos would step up and adopt him and then ah help him in every conceivable way to be a ah good citizen as he grew up.
00:09:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A few years after that, twin boys boys were born to Bob and Rose. It was a wonderful event, of course. Tanner and Sebastian Cipriano loved each other.
00:09:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They loved their brother Tucker and their family and community. As you might imagine, every sport, every adventure, school, work, and grades, all of these things were there for all of these kids.
00:09:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They had every advantage and managed to turn that into gold of... love for each other, service to others and each other.
00:09:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Some years later, a little sister was born named Isabella. She was a joy, of course, to the Cipriano family, and Tucker especially, he's the adopted one, he especially loved her with all of his heart.
00:10:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So for some reason, the ah twin boys may be had an effect on him that was not ah entirely positive. ah
00:10:22
Caroline
Well, I mean, twins are already innately a pair. They're a click right away.
00:10:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They have each other, yes, and they belong.
00:10:29
Caroline
Right out the gate.
00:10:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was just feeling like he didn't belong, but there was something about Isabella that he fostered and loved, loved, loved.
00:10:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The family was not perfect, however.
00:10:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There was a challenge with Tucker from a young age. He was rebellious. He had a hard time in school with both behavior and grades.
00:10:56
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob and Rose devoted themselves to his development and sought all manner of help and support.
Family Support and Substance Abuse
00:11:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
As a teen, he developed substance abuse issues, shoplifting incidents, anger issues,
00:11:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When he developed a cocaine habit as a teenager, I just want to stop with that statement.
00:11:20
Caroline
yeah
00:11:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You got a teenager that you love, you adore, you've been nurturing, trying to help him.
00:11:23
Caroline
yeah
00:11:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And now he's into cocaine.
00:11:30
Caroline
ah
00:11:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can't even imagine what that would be like, Caroline. Caroline.
00:11:33
Caroline
I know that's scary. Yeah.
00:11:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So ah here he is. He's shoplifting in order to afford the cocaine. He's got anger issues when he, know, I don't know where that's coming from, but probably ah he's got a lot of rage inside.
00:11:50
Caroline
yeah
00:11:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When he developed that habit as a teenager, Rose, not only did they offer him every addiction program under the roof, but under the sun, but they also, she went to addiction programs to try to understand him and get him the best help.
00:12:08
Caroline
Aw, she's a good mom.
00:12:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she would, you know how like there's an, there's an Alcoholics Anonymous and then there's Al-Anon, which is for families of alcoholics, trying to understand the addiction, trying to understand what it does to the ah addict.
00:12:15
Caroline
Yes, yeah.
00:12:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Rose was doing that, but it was for cocaine and other illicit drugs. So she's doing everything. They both are. Everybody loves Tucker and they want him to succeed.
00:12:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Love and support was this family's North Star. Meanwhile, Tanner, Sebastian, and Ashley thrived. Tucker often said he just did not fit into this family because he was the only one who was adopted.
00:12:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't fit in here. I'm not you. I'm not you.
00:12:58
Caroline
What's sad is that that's like normal anyway. I think people who are not adopted kids go through that. So it's sad because it's an it's an obvious thing for him to latch onto. As untrue as it might be, you know, how is he going to shake that feeling?
00:13:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline, I'm 70 years old and I still feel that way around some people.
00:13:17
Caroline
I know. I know. So it's like...
00:13:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you go on If I go on vacation and everybody there can fit into a bikini but me, I'm sitting i'm thinking, you know, where's your restaurant?
00:13:26
Caroline
I'm in the wrong way.
00:13:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I need to i need my comfort food.
00:13:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, i have some sympathy for Tucker.
00:13:38
Caroline
I do too.
00:13:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, he he's the only adoptee in a very, very, very successful and supportive family.
00:13:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Everyone else got everyone else in that family, but he didn't feel like anybody got him.
00:13:55
Caroline
Well, and then he's doing what, as detrimental and scary as they are, he's doing fairly normal sort of like rebellious things. It's just that it's starting to border on you know, ah too far, right?
00:14:09
Caroline
So, but that feeds that whole dynamic. I'm just, I want to throw it out that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy for him that he's feeling unloved like the outcasts that adrift in his own family, this family of super successful people.
00:14:21
Caroline
Look at me, I'm a reject. Every time he gets in trouble, shoplifting, anger. school, whatever. It just continues to reinforce this horrific cycle for him that you don't belong here.
00:14:32
Caroline
You know what I mean? so I do feel really bad.
00:14:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I do. i do. And I know that they gave him, you know, counselor after counselor after counselor, rehab after rehab after rehab.
00:14:40
Caroline
Right.
00:14:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But at your core, if you feel that you do not belong in this world that you are in, i i think that is, ah number one, I think that this an affliction of many teenagers, right?
00:14:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:01
Caroline
ah Oh, yes. Yes.
00:15:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And young adults and people, some people never develop coping strategies for that.
00:15:09
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So i yes.
00:15:11
Caroline
They become recluse, you know, or angry or whatever else.
00:15:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
what What person on this planet has not at some time asked the question, what am I doing on planet Earth? How did I get here? Why am I here?
00:15:26
Caroline
Right. Like, how am I, how, how do I do this every day? Like, what, even your life is great, I imagine if you've got some introspective parts of you, you're thinking, how do I get this and others don't?
00:15:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:15:39
Caroline
Or how do, you know, I ask those kinds of questions all the time because it doesn't make any sense.
00:15:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Everybody does. And for most people, the mystery of life becomes something that we cope with.
00:15:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And some people cope with alcohol. Some people cope with shopping. Some people cope with religion. Some people cope with ah eating disorders and on and on.
00:16:05
Caroline
Yeah. Working out.
00:16:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Human beings are in a struggle with the existential questions of life on earth.
00:16:16
Caroline
Yeah. So true.
00:16:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's no doubt about it. And if you can come to your own code and creed of how to live and how to live properly, in service to others.
00:16:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's a lot of evidence that being in service to yourself versus service to others, you're you're better off mentally if you're in service to yourself enough, but you're really trying to give back to your community in positive ways as much as you can.
00:16:39
Caroline
right I do too.
00:16:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, uh, I mean, I think that's what the Boy Scouts Girl Scouts is all about. I do.
00:16:53
Caroline
That community aspect of service, you're I think you're 100% right. That there's an element of life that can never be fully lived if you're not in service to others or those around you or fully complete.
00:16:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:17:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. And, you know, I don't have a problem with people growing up churched in the church and then they develop a lifelong creed of behavior and beliefs.
00:17:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:14
Caroline
Right.
00:17:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that takes a lot of pressure off.
00:17:18
Caroline
I do too.
00:17:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And yeah.
00:17:19
Caroline
Actually.
00:17:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that, you know, Tucker, you
00:17:21
Caroline
It's so popular. Yeah.
00:17:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker just, I believe him when he says he doesn't fit. I believe him.
00:17:28
Caroline
yeah
00:17:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I believe him when he says everybody else gets everybody else and I don't get even myself.
00:17:35
Caroline
yeah
00:17:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He felt adrift and Caroline, he became a criminal.
00:17:40
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that this is not an old story.
Criminal Activities and Synthetic Drugs
00:17:45
Caroline
No, it's a very common one.
00:17:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, ah it's not a young story.
00:17:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's not a new thing.
00:17:49
Caroline
Yeah, it's very common.
00:17:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So by now, listeners, you know, we can all see the writing on the wall. Tucker will not stop at murder to carry on his antisocial behavior.
00:18:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He has had the support and treatment that a wealthy family can provide, but it was all for naught. He was an addict. He was a thief, and he was about to become a killer.
00:18:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He lives for his next cocaine hit and he needs money and drugs, money and drugs. It's a cycle. Tucker was arrested more than once. I mean, another way to put it is he's constantly gentlyly getting arrested.
00:18:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, they give him some light sentences because of his family of origin. They know that the family has the money to send him to rehab.
00:18:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The judges are pretty lenient, but then he keeps it's a revolving door for him. Each time his stay in jail was very short, followed by rehab, followed by stealing and getting drugs and getting caught again.
00:19:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the next time his sentence was a little bit longer. During the last week of March, 2012, Tucker Cipriano and his friend, Ian Zenderman, met up for stealing and drugs.
00:19:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Tucker and Ian were very good friends because they had a life goal in
00:19:20
Caroline
you
00:19:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
common, stealing and drugs. They met and befriended a young man named Mitchell Young in Farmington Hills, where the three all lived.
00:19:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Young was employed, but living out of his truck. His mother required him to move out of her home due to his not having enough step, taking all the steps to finance enrollment in college.
00:19:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, ah the fact that she's living in Farmington Hills tells me that there are resources there, but some parents
00:20:00
Caroline
great
00:20:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
try to make their children very independent, you know, at age three or five or something like that.
00:20:12
Caroline
Right. Right away.
00:20:14
Caroline
But then.
00:20:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I, okay, if that works, that's great, but, you know, it wasn't working for him.
00:20:17
Caroline
Or there may be. There may be underlying things because I remember, you know, there were three kids in our family. That means three different styles of money management.
00:20:29
Caroline
That means three different styles of goal setting and goal achieving, right? Three different academic aptitudes. So I think it could be, i don't know, but I just want to throw out.
00:20:41
Caroline
Sometimes parents do that because perhaps they have already footed a bill for a couple dreams and they realize now that child needs to start footing their own bill for their dreams. Kind of a thing. I just want to throw that out.
00:20:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I agree. ah The only reason that I am worried so much about ah Mitchell and his, is he getting the love that he needs and the support that he needs?
00:21:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Of course, we know Tucker is, but he's not taking advantage of it.
00:21:07
Caroline
Right.
00:21:10
Caroline
Right.
00:21:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But, you know, it came out in court that the... ah Mitchell didn't, Young, did not really have a very supportive family, whereas the Ciprianos, I mean, they were like, they never gave up on him.
00:21:21
Caroline
Okay. Right.
00:21:29
Caroline
Right.
00:21:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They still love him.
00:21:31
Caroline
Like they're going through rehab just because they want to understand their son better.
00:21:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They still love Tucker. Yeah.
00:21:35
Caroline
Whereas maybe Mitchell's mom is thinking, if you ever get into drugs, I'm going to change my name and disown you. Kind of an approach.
00:21:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:21:42
Caroline
Okay.
00:21:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, he was on the streets, but he could live out of his truck and, you know, crash, like couch surf. Mitchell Young was really trying to get into school, but he was basically a vulnerable kid.
00:21:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was a throwaway kid for all intents and purposes. And again, this came out in in his trial or mitigation phase of his trial. His life had been a difficult one, but he was still trying to make it.
00:22:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His mother was absolutely no use to him in terms of guidance and support. And I never heard about a father in the picture. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he was really just feckless.
00:22:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No real goals other than getting into college. And then later that morphed into, well, then I just need to get more drugs. But he did want to make it in the world.
00:22:35
Caroline
I was gonna say, now I take back everything I said because this is one of those kids that actually is trying to support themselves, but the world is like against them.
00:22:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or that could be an exaggeration that came up at trial that his defense attorneys used. I don't know.
00:22:49
Caroline
Touche. Yeah, it's hard to know the real.
00:22:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know.
00:22:51
Caroline
but
00:22:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I do think there's a juxtaposition between him and Tucker.
00:22:53
Caroline
Yeah. Yes. Yes. I was going to say, because Tucker's got this access to all this unconditional love, support and needs for true human development.
00:23:04
Caroline
But he's got this cloud of psychological damage and trauma that won't let him tap into it. Whereas Mitchell, that's all Mitchell needs for a platform for success.
00:23:15
Caroline
But he's denied. He's cut off. He's got what he's got.
00:23:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. What the two of them have in common, in my opinion, is that their brains are not developed in the frontal cortex that involves critical thinking.
00:23:29
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
These two kids are not absorbing ah the material in school that helps your ah critical thinking part of your brain develop.
00:23:44
Caroline
yeah
00:23:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They are interested in what looks to me from a distance, and I'm not a doctor. I don't know. I'm just a human. That's my only experience, really. they They appear to me to be looking for a way to turn off their emotions.
00:24:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And because your emotions are rampant when you're a teenager and into young adulthood,
00:24:07
Caroline
Avoid the realities.
00:24:13
Caroline
Oh, yeah. And everything seems still permanent.
00:24:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, that's biology's way of getting you to have 50,000 kids.
00:24:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, by the time you're 16, I mean, it's it's just just an emotional time. And you look back when you're in your 30s. Why did I do that? Well, there was a reason.
00:24:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You did not have the brain function.
00:24:28
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know So i again, i just worry about these kids who are getting into a criminal life, an antisocial life, a drug-addled situation, because their brain isn't developed yet and they're ruining their brain to growth.
00:24:50
Caroline
Well, and there're they're learning the wrong coping strategies, right? I mean, that's ultimately what's going on.
00:24:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Yes.
00:24:55
Caroline
It's because all of that, you know, they're not wrong for saying this is all awful and it's hard to bear. That's life. We just talked about that. It's the coping strategies that you choose to get through it that are really key to success.
00:25:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:25:10
Caroline
You know?
00:25:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think goals, you know, what do I want for myself? And I see Mitchell Young having more personal goals than Tucker Cipriano.
00:25:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:20
Caroline
Yes.
00:25:24
Caroline
That's what I'm saying. He needed a tap line into the unconditional love and support that Tucker was totally enveloped in
00:25:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. Yes.
00:25:32
Caroline
But it was, it's like they're crossed, you know, they just, they were like a yin and yang in their situation and needs, you know.
00:25:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. I'm okay with all of that. I'm very sympathetic. And I can see what I think is going on here. And I get it. I understand it.
00:25:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It wasn't my path, but for one thing, this my world that i grew up in was very different than this world we're talking about here.
00:25:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And all I'm saying is I'm with them right up into the murder part and then that's it.
00:26:09
Caroline
Yeah, well, and the druggies too.
00:26:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Nope.
00:26:11
Caroline
I mean, that's just like never a really good choice. It's just destructive every single time.
00:26:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, it's not. It's not. In early April, Tucker Cipriano was concerned about being arrested for violating his probation.
00:26:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had been in jail so many times that this next time, if he were not, if he failed at probation, he was going to have to go and sentence what we, I mean, he's going to have to experience what we call, you know, an actual sentence like a hard time.
00:26:41
Caroline
Multiple years. Yeah, hard time.
00:26:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. So ah this is on his mind. Now he has a goal, stay out of prison.
00:26:52
Caroline
Good goal.
00:26:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
By this time, he'd been arrested so many times, he was headed for a longer stint in prison if he was caught in possession with cocaine. As a remedy to this, Tucker switched to K2 or synthetic marijuana.
00:27:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This was an uncontrolled substance at the time. It was not illegal. And it was just as highly addictive as cocaine was.
00:27:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we didn't know that yet. It was sold out of service stations. So some of our listeners may remember that, that, ah I mean, you know, K2 had like a marketing strategy. We're going to sell out of service stations. I don't, I wasn't part of this world, but I read a lot about it and out that was the marketing plan for K2.
00:27:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it's almost like Breaking Bad where he made his own drugs.
00:27:44
Caroline
was I was going to say, yeah, like, I don't know.
00:27:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's that.
00:27:48
Caroline
It just seems like a bad idea to be buying much of anything out of the service station besides gas and prepackaged foods.
00:27:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. So Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell Young and Ian Zenderman, the three musketeers here, made acquisitions of K2 their daily goal.
00:28:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think they even had business meetings at the beginning of the day. How are we going to buy our k two at the service station? I think they had bought it out of a mobile station.
00:28:20
Caroline
Okay.
00:28:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um They had to steal to get the money. And then they would take their money to the service station. The three of them decided to break into the Cipriano home through the garage door that always stayed open.
The Attack Plan and Execution
00:28:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, that's a problem. To scout for money in the cars and in the house. In his father's car, Tucker found a Dearborn Federal Credit Union card.
00:28:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Don't leave your credit cards in your car. Okay.
00:28:49
Caroline
Yeah, that's a big no-no.
00:28:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's a big no-no. With this, the group went to one of the Valero stations in Farmington Hills and tried without success to withdraw $100 from the ATM. Back in Caroline, was a lot of money.
00:29:10
Caroline
Was it? I feel like it hasn't been a lot of money since like 1985.
00:29:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah well you can buy you can buy your daily dose
00:29:18
Caroline
Oh, I
00:29:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
of k two That's enough for three. That's what $100 would get you.
00:29:24
Caroline
Okay.
00:29:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They then used the card successfully to but to buy a um bag of K2 Spice, but they couldn't get money out of the ATMs.
00:29:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So in other words, when you're selling out of service stations, you can use a stolen credit card. Okay, that's something that I learned in my journey ah down this case.
00:29:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Young used the car to fill his gas tank also. Remember, they're all traveling around in Mitchell Young's pickup truck where he's living.
00:30:03
Caroline
Oh, right. Okay.
00:30:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Subsequently, the three then drove nine miles north to the mobile station in Keigo Harbor near the residence of Tucker Cipriano's girlfriend.
00:30:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
now Now we're asking you to remember a whole lot of people here.
00:30:20
Caroline
i was going to say, he's got girlfriend?
00:30:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
we've We've got this three threesome of Tucker, Mitchell, and Ian, and now they're going to leave their neighborhood, which apparently is serviced by the Valero stations, and they're going to go to Cipriano's girlfriend's house in Keiko Harbor, where they have a mobile station.
00:30:34
Caroline
Huh.
00:30:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So at this mobile, the group tried the Dearborn cardigan, and it did not work. When this occurred, the burglars, ah these kids, reflected on a plan of, they started thinking about, well, maybe we should just murder people and take everything they have.
00:31:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So me let's say add murder to our robbery. Bob and Rose had sought help many times for their son. Perhaps tough love was the only next step.
00:31:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So their ultimatum to Tucker was stop your drugging, stop your stealing. I mean, they knew that he had come into the garage and into their house looking for money and looking for the card, got the card out of their dad's ah car And they they they decided, you know, let's try tough love. Now, tough love means you do something that's going break your heart as a parent.
00:31:41
Caroline
Yeah, you do things that you know, like like are hurting to your kids, but in the long term, it's what's needed for their survival.
00:31:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you're going to do it.
00:31:49
Caroline
It's like...
00:31:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. In other words, probably, I'm totally speculating here. Rose trying so hard to understand addicts,
00:32:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
addiction behaviors.
00:32:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's probably learned that as a parent, you can become an enabler.
00:32:11
Caroline
<unk> yeah yep here
00:32:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
For example, leaving your garage door open and your credit card in your car.
00:32:17
Caroline
Yeah, I mean...
00:32:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I'm not criticizing them because I did and do stuff like that all the time.
00:32:18
Caroline
and
00:32:23
Caroline
oh yeah. I mean, we all do. It's the... Tough love is like calling the cops on them and allowing, you know, and pressing charges against your own child.
00:32:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:32:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, God, it's horrifying.
00:32:32
Caroline
the Horrifying.
00:32:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But sometimes it's the only way to get them scared straight, as they used to call it.
00:32:35
Caroline
Yes. yes yes
00:32:40
Caroline
Yes, and it, oh, the pain that Bob and Rose were probably just starting to just get into around this, you know?
00:32:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they gave them this ultimatum, Tucker's parents did. You're going to stop taking drugs and you're going to stop stealing and you're going to get back into school and take it seriously or you're going to move out.
00:33:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Tucker moved out and started couch surfing and kept right on stealing to get money for K2. His mind is now, I mean, he's on a hamster wheel.
00:33:18
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's not thinking with whatever frontal lobe he may have.
00:33:21
Caroline
yeah
00:33:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's drug addled now.
00:33:26
Caroline
yeah
00:33:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To me, Tucker has become like a shark in the water. You know how sharks don't look at their prey. They don't worry about danger.
00:33:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They don't have any... I mean, they're just an eating machine. They come through the water. They don't care about your arm. They're going to eat it off. All of the above.
00:33:46
Caroline
If they bite you by mistake, they'll just keep on swimming.
00:33:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's... Right? So Tucker has become a shark in the water. he has no bounds. There are no bounds that he would not cross to get K2, which remember, listeners, K2 is like cocaine. It's got the same value in terms of adeptivity.
00:34:10
Caroline
which I will just note from my sixth grade, eighth grade health class, can't remember which one, but ah the brain, they've done this test on mice, the brain the brain registers cocaine the same as it does sugar, processed sugar.
00:34:26
Caroline
I just want everyone to know that. The way that the brain processes cocaine, meaning the ability to get addicted, It sees sugar the same way. I found that shocking.
00:34:37
Caroline
Shocking. So if anything ever comes across your research and says as addictive as cocaine or registers like cocaine in the brain, just avoid it. And sugars include.
00:34:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I know. And, and, you know, sugar, um, I, I agree with people who say, you know, we need big changes in the laws about how much sugar you can put in stuff, but that's just me because I'm a, I would be a sugar addict if I was eating sugar on a regular basis.
00:34:56
Caroline
I agree.
00:34:59
Caroline
aye I know. i agree, too.
00:35:04
Caroline
Hey, if we were stealing sugar out of the out of the gas station, you know, people are stealing donuts all the time. Nobody blinks an eye. But, you know, it's a big deal.
00:35:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I, I, I know. I will admit, you know, ah as a sugar addict addict, I can say that I never tried a Ding Dong.
00:35:24
Caroline
Really?
00:35:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, ever I wanted to try a Ding Dong just to know what people were talking about when they said, oh, God, those Ding Dongs.
00:35:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:35:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah My thing was M&M's and Snicker bars and ice cream, also Oreos.
00:35:34
Caroline
Oh, heck yeah. That's so funny. That's so funny you say the thing about the ding dong because when I was a kid in school, first of all, I always wanted to pack lunch, right? But we never really did that.
00:35:44
Caroline
I probably never would have eaten it. But all my peers, like especially in elementary school in the 80s, they all had ding dongs. And those things came wrapped in like a tinfoil. They just looked so cool, Mom.
00:35:55
Caroline
I was obsessed. I wanted it so bad. I don't think I ever told you that. But oh my God.
00:35:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, you never did tell me that. and And I probably, that would drive me to the Ding Dong store, Caroline.
00:36:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because, you know, one of the ways that I coped with pressure was to, you know, crave ah junk food, just junk food.
00:36:15
Caroline
Eat the M&M. Yeah, me too.
00:36:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'll just call it junk food.
00:36:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I don't do that anymore. ah Anyway, he did not care. Meaning Tucker, the shark in the water, did not care.
00:36:28
Caroline
you know
00:36:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
about Mitchell Young or Ian Zimmerman or anybody else for that matter. He only needed them. ian Zimmerman would help him steal while Mitchell Young had an old truck. that So these were his posse.
00:36:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This was his posse.
00:36:49
Caroline
This was this K-whatever crew. Yeah.
00:36:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, his his gang, you know, Billy the Kid and his gang.
00:36:54
Caroline
yeah
00:36:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But, you know, I shouldn't make light of it because real. This is real.
00:37:03
Caroline
Well, we see how quickly this evolves, right?
00:37:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this is real
00:37:06
Caroline
I mean, honestly, this all is like pretty normal. I think this is a trap a lot of families see their kids or teenagers get caught up in, but they make it out, right?
00:37:17
Caroline
Those rehab stints, the changing, either the forced labor somewhere.
00:37:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yep
00:37:22
Caroline
I don't know. I don't know how people get through it, but they get through it. But this, this is just highlighting all these very common traps and like riding around with a gang of two other people in the same boat as you, no goals, no drive, kicked out of their house because they won't have the right goal, according to their parents.
00:37:41
Caroline
You know, i mean, it's not good. It's not going to end well. We all know.
00:37:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, it's the bromide. You know, the part of you that you feed is the part of you that gets stronger.
00:37:50
Caroline
That's right. And so.
00:37:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they are feeding their addiction and they're feeding their schemes and they're feeding illegality and they just want their K2.
00:37:58
Caroline
Yes. Yeah.
00:38:02
Caroline
yeah
00:38:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They sought... um They, they, their, their goal setting looked like this. We need $3,000. Um, and,
00:38:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm willing to steal it. This is Cipriano. Tucker Cipriano was willing to, you know, put together the plans to steal it and share it with them. We're going to be, a they're really, really are gang now, a crew, you know, they're a, they're a three-way team and they're going to escape to Mexico.
00:38:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Zenderman, however, when they started talking about maybe we should just murder people and take everything they have, ah he didn't want any part of murder.
00:38:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Cipriano and Young kind of had a spinoff and decided to attack the Cipriano household in particular to get the money.
00:39:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
During this initial time in Kigo Harbor, where they are using the credit card of Bob Cipriano, Cipriano and Young assigned themselves to kill specific members of the Cipriano family.
00:39:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, now they're planning their murder. Cipriano was to kill the brothers. Young was going to kill Cipriano's parents. And Mitchell Young also volunteered to kill their eight-year-old daughter, Isabella.
00:39:35
Caroline
Oh my god. Yeah.
00:39:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, that's how dark things went. But as these roles were being assigned, Tucker Cipriano became upset, and he was very hesitant at the thought of having his younger sister, Isabella, killed.
00:39:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The group, therefore, opted to try searching the garage one more time for money. So they're going to go back to what didn't work last time to see if it would work the second time.
00:40:04
Caroline
yeah
00:40:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, I have to say that if a child of mine broke into my house using an unlocked door, the next night that door would be locked.
00:40:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, it would have a, but you know, that never happened to me. So i didn't deal with some of these problems that these the parents are dealing with. I really didn't.
00:40:27
Caroline
Right.
00:40:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I can't say what I would do, really. I can't say what I would do.
00:40:30
Caroline
Well, and it's natural to have a large amount of denial when you're a parent and you're trying to navigate getting your child, quote unquote, back on track, you know.
00:40:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's, you know, it's denial. And it's like ah denial has an annex called hope or maybe hope has an annex called denial.
00:40:45
Caroline
Yes. It's called denial.
00:40:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's just part of of wishful thinking and having faith in your child. And I get it.
00:40:55
Caroline
And love.
00:40:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I do.
00:40:57
Caroline
You know, you love these people. You want it to just stop. You want all the bad to stop and just let the good rain and dang it. know? It's hard.
00:41:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, they, you know, yes. So this posse of two now drove back south to Farmington Hills and the Cipriano House.
00:41:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Once again, well, I guess there were three of them that were going to try this redo of the garage break-in.
00:41:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
See, what did he leave in his car today?
00:41:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Kind of a thing with Bob. But anyway, once again, Zenderman aided Cipriano in climbing into the garage where he found a gift card.
00:41:40
Caroline
yeah hoy
00:41:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So there was probably another car in the garage, Mama. Mama's card. There's a gift card in there. On the card was a sticker appearing to read $265. Oh, my God.
00:41:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And remember now, you know, there's three of them. So where is Tucker? I mean, where is Mitchell ah Young? Mitchell Young is out in his pickup. He's the getaway driver, this this next ah hit that they're making.
00:42:04
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:42:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay. on the card was a sticker for $2.65, so they were very satisfied with this, despite their larger aim of murdering and getting everything.
00:42:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the group drove back to Kego Harbor in Young's truck. ah But there they discovered that the card actually only held $2.65.
00:42:30
Caroline
That seems more realistic.
00:42:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they tried the card again. They still had Bob's card. They tried that ah another time. And this time, the bank informed the cashier that the card was blocked for suspicious purchases.
00:42:45
Caroline
Well, so maybe let's hope that the parents did call, at least on the card, maybe.
00:42:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, probably.
00:42:52
Caroline
But it could have just been the bank.
00:42:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, when you see K2 at the mobile station, you know, I don't know.
00:42:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At that time, Cipriano and Young, on returning to the truck, made the decision to carry out their murder plan against the Cipriano family. having tired of wavering. Now, we remember, we only did this because we were giving them one more chance to have something in their car that would give us enough money to get the K2 and to start our bank account of $3,000 to go to Mexico.
00:43:22
Caroline
Which just, I was going to say that's but that paints a very clear picture of how wasted these mines are at this point.
00:43:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what the logic is here.
00:43:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, again, Ann Zenderman, however, at that point, declined any further participation as he was unwilling to be involved with murder.
00:43:43
Caroline
Well, good for you, Ian.
00:43:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, it's a sad day when when a drug addict is your, you know, the brains of the outfit.
00:43:51
Caroline
I was going to say, like, your moral compass is the guy who's like, I'll rob and do drugs with you, but murder is where I draw the line.
00:43:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he just left. Yeah.
00:43:58
Caroline
I just, why didn't they act more like Ian?
00:43:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, yeah.
00:44:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. There was something in the end that wasn't in these two boys. ah In fact, due to his abandoning the crime, during the investigation, Zenderman was granted immunity for testifying against the two others.
00:44:19
Caroline
Okay, so.
00:44:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they're not going to bring him in for the case. They're not going to bring him in for stealing.
00:44:24
Caroline
Yeah, good.
00:44:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um They're not going to be bringing him in for, you know, attempted murder or even plotting the murder.
00:44:32
Caroline
Conspiracy, yeah, not reporting it.
00:44:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or how about knowing about it and not calling the police?
00:44:36
Caroline
That part, yeah.
00:44:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's a crime. Yeah.
00:44:38
Caroline
I mean, what do they call that? Like a good Samaritan law? Is that like a, you're aiding and abetting?
00:44:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's so the law law.
00:44:47
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think that when you know that a murder is going to take place and you do not call 911, you do not call the police or go down to the police station about it, I think that is...
00:44:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:45:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah aiding and abetting a felony.
00:45:05
Caroline
Yeah, I can see that. Okay.
00:45:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, but there's something illegal about that. There's got to be, or we're in big trouble.
00:45:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm sure I'll get messages from people. if They say, no, that's perfectly fine. No, I don't think that's perfectly fine. So he, he Zimmerman, Ian Zimmerman got immunity.
00:45:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Around 1.45 a.m. on April 16th, Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell Young dropped Zenderman off at Cipriano's girlfriend's house in Kego Harbor, back to where the ah mobile station is. Cipriano and Young returned south to Farmington Hills and broke into the Cipriano's house a third and final time.
Details of the Brutal Attack
00:45:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Shortly after 2.30 a.m. m on April 16th, they brought with them knives. intending to stab the family to death as they slept and caroline the way that they can get into the house is there's an unlocked garage door and there's an unlocked door into the house in the garage
00:46:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah okay so let's talk about the murder and it's so sad
00:46:18
Caroline
No bueno.
00:46:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So at this point, Tucker and Cipriano, excuse me, Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell Young were going to murder the Cipriano family, all except for Isabella.
00:46:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They don't know how they would do it except for stabbing. They had no idea really of what happens in a big murder, multiple victims and so forth. They just had K2 on their brain and they thought that they were invincible And they thought they were right, in my opinion. um All of this is my opinion because I don't know.
00:46:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can't get inside these messed up heads.
00:46:59
Caroline
Mm-mm.
00:47:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Shortly after 2.30 a.m. on April
00:47:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mitchell Young boost ah boosted Cipriano into the Cipriano's garage where the Cipriano picked an aluminum Easton baseball bat and then opened the door to let Young in. They were still going to do stabbing, but they picked up this aluminum bat.
00:47:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But then the family dog, Emmy, hindered them as they made their way through the garage. Emmy barked and woke up the whole family. Robert Cipriano, Bob, confronted the intruders in the kitchen. he said to them, get out of my house.
00:47:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, just, I mean, he recognized his son and his son's friend.
00:47:46
Caroline
normal. Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah
00:47:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He demanded that they leave, at which point Tucker Cipriano started beating Robert with the Easton bat. This is an aluminum bat, Caroline.
00:48:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then Mitchell Young allegedly objected, saying, what are you doing? Acting like, you know, i never signed up for murder. Oh, yes, he did. And Cipriano replied, ah join this or you will join them.
00:48:18
Caroline
Jesus.
00:48:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, Tucker, I said, you know, a few paragraphs ago, i i ah he became a criminal.
00:48:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's a criminal mind.
00:48:28
Caroline
Well, in the way it at all, i mean, it just sounds so violent and and stupid, like a drugged out mind, you know, an overly drugged mind.
00:48:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's not a stealing, drug addict mind. That's a criminal mind.
00:48:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But where would you get a line like join this or you'll join them? i mean, that's that's just a, that's something, I don't know.
00:48:47
Caroline
It's like mobster, you know, like cartel-y, you know.
00:48:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it Thank you. Yes, absolutely. he yeah He, you know, um Tucker then gave the bat to Mitchell Young, directing him to kill his father while Tucker restrained Bob on the floor.
00:49:04
Caroline
oh
00:49:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
out I'll pin him down and you murder him.
00:49:09
Caroline
With a bat. I just, I want to remind everyone it's a bat. Like, oh my God.
00:49:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Up close, personal, bloody, cruel, vicious, ah inhumane.
00:49:21
Caroline
Yeah. Jesus.
00:49:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
During the investigation, it was concluded that Mitchell Young had infliction inflicted the blows that killed Bob as the impact spatter of blood on Young's lower trousers indicated that he had been standing directly over Robert as he was beaten to death
00:49:46
Caroline
she
00:49:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So blood pattern, blood splatter up the trouser leg of Mitchell.
00:49:53
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I see a stunned kid in my head, enraged after everything he had been through, including being kicked out of his home by his mother for not getting into college fast enough, kicking in.
00:50:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So when you beat somebody in the head,
00:50:15
Caroline
I mean, with a bat, like that's
00:50:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When you're standing over their head and they're begging you to stop, um that is not no that is rage, just rage, rage, rage.
00:50:27
Caroline
yeah yeah oh yeah
00:50:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob Cipriano's wife, Rose, witnessed this attack, screaming to Tucker as she was bit being beaten. Tucker, please stop.
00:50:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker, I love you. Tucker, you can stop this.
00:50:47
Caroline
oh
00:50:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker, I love you. Please stop. But the beating continued during which their youngest child, Isabella, came down the stairs with a quest bat from her room to give to her mother, Rose, to defend her father and save herself.
00:51:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker Cipriano rushed her into her room and told her to stay there. And she said to Tucker, I thought you loved me. And Tucker said, i do love you and I want you to stay right here.
00:51:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Stay safe.
00:51:21
Caroline
Thank
00:51:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So something about his brain can can kill his father with a baseball bat. and then give the bat to his friend to finish the job.
00:51:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then the mother, Tucker can try to kill his mother. She's saying, I love you. Please stop. I love you. You don't have to do this. Please stop. But he's got it in him to run to his little sister and make sure that she gets out of harm's way.
00:51:53
Caroline
To rescue her. Yeah.
00:51:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She loves him. He loves her.
00:51:59
Caroline
So weird.
00:52:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mitchell Young, meanwhile, took the Quest bat and struck Rose with it. So now they've got two bats.
00:52:10
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:52:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
During the attack, Cipriano's brother Tanner called 911 while hiding in a closet upstairs. Yet by the time the police had arrived, Rose Cipriano and her son, Salvador Salvatore, had been nearly...
00:52:27
Caroline
Is it Salvatore or Sebastian?
00:52:34
Caroline
It must be Salvatore.
00:52:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's Salvatore.
00:52:37
Caroline
Okay.
00:52:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, it's it's Salvatore.
00:52:39
Caroline
Okay. All
00:52:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um
00:52:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah
00:52:43
Caroline
right.
00:52:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
By the time the, what, let me back up. ah We've got Tanner in the closet, calling 911.
00:52:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Rose Cipriano and son Salvatore, they called him Sal, had been nearly fatally bit beaten with the quest bat.
00:53:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:53:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The victims were all members of Tucker's adoptive family, his father Robert Cipriano, Bob, his mother, Rosemary, known as Rose Cipriano, his 17-year-old brother, Sal Cipriano.
00:53:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bob died from the attacks while Rose and Sal were permanently injured. Now, Caroline, when I say permanently injured, I mean disabled, permanently.
00:53:30
Caroline
know
00:53:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Sal was left mute for the rest of his life. He's permanently brain damaged. It took him years to learn how to walk again.
00:53:43
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:53:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And by walk, I mean barely.
00:53:46
Caroline
Yeah, like assisted probably.
00:53:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Both Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell Young were under the influence of the synthetic drug known as K2 during the attack, a fact that would become a major fixation of the subsequent murder trial.
00:54:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is what their defense is saying is that they were out of their mind. They were out of their mind. this
00:54:09
Caroline
Wow.
00:54:10
Caroline
That's true.
00:54:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This drug needs to be illegal.
00:54:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was legal.
00:54:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was made too easy for these ah children to pick it up and use it to bat kill their family. The audio recording from Tanner Cipriano's several 911 calls also played a major role in the perpetrator's fate.
00:54:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was hiding in an upstairs closet. He was whispering like this, please help me, please hurry.
00:54:40
Caroline
I think we've heard all heard a call kind of like that on some kind of a true crime documentary. It's scary. It's like scary to think about.
00:54:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, God. oh yeah. Police did come, but it was too late for Bob.
Trials and Sentencing
00:54:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was dead. Rose and Salvatore were near death.
00:54:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
As a matter of fact, Caroline, at the hospital, oregon donation organ donation procedures had begun on Salvatore. They were about ready to take his organs because he was an organ donor.
00:55:09
Caroline
oh my gosh.
00:55:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
survived.
00:55:11
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He survived. But again, he is profoundly disabled for the rest of his life. For weeks leading up to the murder trial, Bob Cipriano's brother, Greg, was desperate to keep the Cipriano family from having to relieve their nightmare, pardon me, reli relive their nightmare in court.
00:55:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was a lawyer and he tried everything he could to avoid trial. There was a new prosecutor or or deputy prosecutor who taking the case and just would not consider plea.
00:55:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, wanted to go to trial so bad. She was young and he went public and said, she's just trying to make a name for herself at the expense of my family.
00:55:54
Caroline
Right. Right.
00:55:59
Caroline
and
00:56:01
Caroline
right
00:56:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The family did not want a trial.
00:56:05
Caroline
You know, there that makes a lot of sense to me. Like, in the moment I get upset because as a consumer of public information, I all, you know, we all feel entitled to know all the details, which we don't.
00:56:17
Caroline
But i i I do actually feel like it's paramount more so than the presentation of justice is protection of second traumatization for victims.
00:56:29
Caroline
I i do actually really think that's paramount.
00:56:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:56:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, that's what he was after.
00:56:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He doesn't want his family further trauma traumatized. He went to see Tucker in jail, hoping to convince him to, quote unquote, man up, accept your fate and plead guilty to first degree murder.
00:56:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Those are his words, man up. I don't really like that term. Well, if you go through this trial, your family will be traumatized, he he said. And, um you know, ah Greg was just doing everything he could do
00:57:03
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah this is what Mitchell said back to him. i mean, Tucker, excuse me. I feel disrespectful saying this, but I feel like fighting for the rest of my life is the only thing I have.
00:57:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's the only option I have left to do. Tucker said, giving up is like hanging myself, Greg. That's what it feels like to me. So they're really trying to get him to accept a plea deal.
00:57:31
Caroline
yeah
00:57:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and um And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, now you're thinking.
00:57:37
Caroline
Well, yeah.
00:57:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now you're thinking about yourself and what this all means now that K2 is not in your brain.
00:57:44
Caroline
Yeah, and frankly, you know, what you did, sir, like, maybe you removed the option to fight because you're not entitled to it anymore. What about the fight your dad tried to put up against you?
00:57:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's exactly what Greg said. Greg said, well, your dad paid for it with his life. And if you have any hope of redemption whatsoever of your soul, you would do something about it.
00:58:10
Caroline
yeah
00:58:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Tucker said to him, don't come at me like that.
00:58:13
Caroline
Oh, I'm disliking Tucker immediately. No more sympathy.
00:58:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. No more sympathy.
00:58:19
Caroline
None.
00:58:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. I mean, you know,
00:58:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now you have a brain to think with. Where was that brain when you were murdering your family? Tucker was defiant, insisting that he would never hurt his father. And then just days before the trial, Greg Cipriano tried again, and this time bringing Tucker's brother Tanner along.
00:58:44
Caroline
Ooh.
00:58:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Tanner said to Tucker,
00:58:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the biggest moment of your life could be right now. That's what Tanner told Tucker. He said, what is more meaningful to me is if you, that you could take responsibility for the first time in your life, just as dad always wanted you to do.
00:59:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this brother's plea struck a chord. And Tanner said, that opened my eyes and broke my heart. I feel like the only way that I'll be able to express my love for my family enough, I'm taking responsibility, you know.
00:59:24
Caroline
Good.
00:59:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm sorry for treating you the way I did, you know. i love you, Tanner. I love you so much. I love you too, said Tanner.
00:59:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We all love you. Just days later, Tucker stood in open court and kept his word to his brother.
00:59:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, do you have any sympathy for him now?
00:59:59
Caroline
No, not at all. You shouldn't have made Tanner do that.
01:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, okay.
01:00:01
Caroline
I mean, you should just feel bad.
01:00:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He stuck to his word.
01:00:08
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tucker Cipriano pled no low contendery meaning no contest, to first-degree felony murder and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
01:00:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mitchell Young, on the other hand, pled not guilty, what, to five charges, first-degree premeditated murder, first-degree felony murder, two counts of assault with intent to murder, that was for ah Rose and Salvatore, and armed robbery.
01:00:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Young was convicted on all five counts and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. In court, Caroline, he was saying, I just met this guy.
01:00:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
didn't know he was going to really kill his family. I just met this guy. Well, you know, you are the one with the blood up in your long pants.
01:01:04
Caroline
Yeah, and I...
01:01:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You stood over this man with a baseball bat and you beat him to death.
01:01:10
Caroline
Well, that's the thing. I mean, Ian you even had enough sense to know where his lines couldn't be crossed. I mean, i I hate to even say this, but I got a lot more respect for Ian than either of these other two guys.
01:01:21
Caroline
Ian at least had some code of conduct.
01:01:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, for sure. Ian is probably, you know, a decent man by now.
01:01:25
Caroline
Yeah.
01:01:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
On October 28th, 2015, so 10 years ago, Mitchell Young's appeal was denied and all convictions were upheld by the Michigan Supreme Court. So we're done. We're done.
01:01:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They're both in jail for life.
01:01:38
Caroline
Well,
01:01:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mitchell Young cried when he was arrested. He cried when he was in court. He claimed that he was forced by Tucker Cipriano again. I just met him. He somehow reasoned that he got sucked into this murder by Ian and Tucker.
01:01:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's a lie. And thought he was going to be another, it was just going to be another theft for drugs. But it doesn't matter to the law how long he knows Tucker.
01:02:05
Caroline
well yeah right
01:02:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The blood DNA put the bat in his hands as he beat the life out of Bob Cipriano whilst Bob was on the floor drowning in his own blood.
01:02:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That is how he died, Caroline.
01:02:19
Caroline
Oh.
01:02:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He drowned in his own blood. So what's the aftermath? Salvatore Cipriano cannot speak. It took a very long time to walk again in a very difficult gait.
01:02:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He will be fighting for his life forever. his He raises money, though. he's ah He raises money for people who are critically injured and disabled, especially brain injuries.
01:02:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He does everything that he can do, goes everywhere he can go to raise money for people who suffer, especially people with brain injuries.
01:02:59
Caroline
geez yeah
01:03:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, his mother was also injured greatly in the attack. She lost an eye and her brain function is ah she has brain function issues as well.
01:03:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She has no peripheral vision.
01:03:15
Caroline
yeah
01:03:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Love does not always conquer. In a strange twist, Tucker Cipriano knew nothing but love from his family. His drug use, K2, was probably a factor in the attack.
01:03:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he had always been pushing in an antisocial way against not belonging. He had all the help in the world. All the help in the world.
01:03:42
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Oh. Yep.
01:03:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and Meanwhile, Mitchell Young was not loved. He was a throwaway kid. He never had any trouble before the murder. He had only known Tucker for a couple of weeks.
Life Sentences for Young Offenders
01:03:55
Caroline
ah
01:03:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, what I put this down to really is folly I do.
01:03:59
Caroline
yep
01:04:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Folly O'Doob being a crime that would not have happened but for one person catching the ah mind disease of the other person and ah both engaging in something that alone they probably would not have done.
01:04:12
Caroline
Yeah, together they're poison.
01:04:18
Caroline
Totally. It's only in combining forces that you become a dangerous beast. On your own, you were just maybe troubled. But together, you make the most deadliest poisonous mix.
01:04:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, there's some kind of chemical mix between these two that caused them to become family annihilators is what they tried to do.
01:04:35
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
01:04:42
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. They pushed each other into this. Well, yeah, because it would. yeah I could just see this happening a thing that they did in a serial manner if they hadn't been caught so quickly. You know what I'm saying? You know.
01:04:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If they had ah gotten $3,000 and gone to Mexico, they would have been on the run for the rest of their life.
01:05:04
Caroline
Something.
01:05:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um So that ends our story today, Caroline, and I wanted to talk about it because I do wonder, number one, is it ever appropriate to have life without prison for someone who was 19 20 when happened?
01:05:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
nineteen and twenty when it happened
01:05:25
Caroline
And drug-induced.
01:05:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know the answer to that.
01:05:27
Caroline
I don't either. i don't either.
01:05:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah We'll find out over time, maybe, if Michigan decides to, maybe after 35 40 years, another look.
01:05:33
Caroline
I don't.
01:05:39
Caroline
i Yeah, I mean, I do think there should always be a clause available for agencies, meaning the the local government agencies housing that prisoner, you know, to address it should they decide to and take it down a road that could shift, you know, maybe this is a halfway...
01:05:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
take another look
01:05:58
Caroline
pri I don't know. I don't know because I don't know enough about it. Grateful. But I'm with you. You know, 20, 30 years of a person's life passing by at any age is quite a cavernous rift between the person you are and the person you've become.
01:06:13
Caroline
But I don't know. When you're 19, oh, yeah, there's no way you're the same person you're going to be when you're even 30 or 25. even 20. You're just young. it's just even you're just so young
01:06:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, it depends on how they how they grow and change as humans in the penal system.
01:06:34
Caroline
Yeah.
01:06:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but The Menendez brothers ah have been there for 35 years, and is that enough?
01:06:40
Caroline
Yeah.
01:06:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the judge says, yes, we're going to do a resentencing, or he's going to recommend to the parole board and all of that.
01:06:48
Caroline
Right.
01:06:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, 35 years, you have an opportunity to make a life record. in your circumstance of being incarcerated.
01:06:54
Caroline
Yeah.
01:06:56
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, because in theory,
01:06:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, I don't hope for that for these two young people, but i wonder if that might not be a realistic um way to handle someone at 19 and 20 who are out of their mind on K2, which is their fault, but, you know, to come in and murder, attempt to murder an entire family,
01:07:03
Caroline
Right. Yes. They're Yeah.
01:07:12
Caroline
yes
01:07:17
Caroline
theyre young yeah
01:07:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, they didn't even think through where are they going to get the money. If people are dead, where do you think the money's going to come from? They weren't thinking.
01:07:31
Caroline
I'm sorry. And $3,000? You think you're even going to get to Mexico, let alone live there? Get real. some I mean, obviously, they never held down day jobs.
01:07:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. No, they just were not thinking straight because their brains were on K2 and they did not have any reasoning and critical thinking going on whatsoever.
01:07:47
Caroline
right
01:07:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject. Today was mostly so so mostly court records and... um of some articles yeah in the Detroit press about the whole trial as it was going on, the arrest in the trial.
01:08:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Episodes are aired every other week. Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe. This helps our listener other listeners, new listeners, find us. Thank you so much, listeners, for joining us. We appreciate you.
01:08:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And one other thing, Caroline. for our listeners. Don't forget to live and let live.
01:08:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So bye-bye for now, Caroline.
01:08:44
Caroline
Bye.