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Believe Your Spiney Senses: Jerry Jones
88 Plays4 months ago
The son of an Alabama Southern Baptist preacher kills his wife and blames a teenage boy. The man is found guilty not once, not twice but three times and the accused teenage boy grows up with a cloud of suspicion hampering his life into adulthood. Will a third conviction stop the madness?
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Transcript
Introduction to Hearth Home and Homicide
00:00:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello listeners. Welcome. I'm Bridget.
00:00:05
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are listening to Hearth Home and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I recent research and narrate each story.
00:00:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Andy is our producer. Caroline and I try to figure out what's going on with this family at the center of the case, we know the ripple effect of family murder never ends.
00:00:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
Setting the Scene: Snohomish County, Washington
00:00:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this morning, Caroline, we're going to talk about ah murder But we're also going to talk about trust your spiny senses, listeners, um and we'll get into that.
00:00:49
Caroline
Yes.
00:00:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we're today we're staying close to home. We're in Snohomish County, Washington, where we both live. Caroline, you and I both worked in Everett where the Snohomish County Courthouse and Administrative Buildings create a busy area filled with lawyers' offices, homes, bail bond businesses, and a jail.
00:01:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All of that is set in Puget Sound paradise. Nothing could ever go wrong in Snohomish County, one would think. But alas, humanity always has a few rotten apples to spoil things for innocent people.
Jerry Jones Trials Overview
00:01:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Today, we're going to revisit the murder of Lee Jones by her husband, Jerry Jones.
00:01:39
Caroline
you
00:01:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Jerry Jones faced three trials. The first was a guilty verdict that was overturned by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on the grounds of ineffective assistance of counsel.
00:01:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The second trial was a guilty verdict, but it was also overturned based on the jury not receiving quote-unquote important evidence.
00:02:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In the third trial, Jerry Jones decided to represent himself. Now, Caroline, this, in my opinion, is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, maybe a con man.
00:02:17
Caroline
Yes. Yeah.
00:02:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, i know I can fool these people.
00:02:19
Caroline
yeah
00:02:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The jury will just see how pure at heart I am. and they will love me so much that they will just, it'll be love at first sight.
00:02:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um You know, they'll just they'll just accept everything that I could possibly have to say. And I'll be innocent. And it was during this third trial that I personally encountered spidey senses,
00:02:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The terrifying reality of Jones was transmitted to me. I swear, and I'm not even into this kind of stuff, but it did happen, and we're going to talk
Background of Lee and Jerry Jones
00:02:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
about it.
00:02:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But first, we're going to talk about who are Lee and Jerry Jones. So Lee and Jerry Jones were caught up in the Vietnam War when they met.
00:02:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Lee was born Ting Thai Hu. in 1947 in Vietnam. Jerry Jones was born in 1946 in Alabama, the son of a Baptist minister. Oh, Lord.
00:03:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah a Baptist minister in Alabama. I already feel like I can guess that Jerry Jones learned how to be a perfect person and learned how to act like that perfect person whenever he was around
00:03:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
anybody and he only let his flaws out in private the dark parts of him and beyond the peering eyes of people whose opinions would crack his perfect veneer so this is a man who i am speculating developed two personalities not a well-rounded personality
00:03:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:06
Caroline
yeah
00:04:09
Caroline
yeah
00:04:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And believe me, in Alabama, Southern Baptist preacher, you better be perfect.
00:04:19
Caroline
Well, the I was just going to say there's an element here, not in a pejorative way, but there is an element of performance here with the church, Southern Baptist, men you know, the perfect. This is a time to the 40s, the fifty s the sixty s you better be perfect or you will be ridiculed and unaccepted by your own community and society.
00:04:40
Caroline
Which of course, like at this time, humans still need community heavily to survive. So, I mean, I could see how a lot of people would develop this skill of I am who I am, but I am who I pretend to be everywhere else that I go.
00:04:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:04:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Well, it's like Shakespeare said... ah The world is a stage, and we are all the actors on the stage.
00:05:00
Caroline
Yes.
00:05:04
Caroline
Yes, merely players.
00:05:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm paraphrasing Shakespeare. ah Andy, your brother, is going to want to correct me over and over and over and over and over about what he actually said, but I'm summing it up.
00:05:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He said, we all wear masks.
00:05:21
Caroline
Yeah, we're all playing a game here.
00:05:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, it's called survival.
00:05:25
Caroline
Yeah.
00:05:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At age 18, Jerry joined the Air Force and it was trained in operating water filtration systems, including swimming pools. So as long as we're teaching you how to purify the water in the jungle ah when you're killing people and you don't want to go to the fort and get purified water, we're going to teach you how to do that.
00:05:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he knew how to do that, which I think is metaphorical, but he also...
00:05:54
Caroline
yeah
00:05:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
While we're teaching that, we might as well teach you the trade of doing that in swimming pools case you want to go into that.
00:06:03
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, our armed forces have balanced down really well. Kill and take life, but here's how you survive.
00:06:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, they really do. They do.
00:06:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i think that's why a lot of people go into the military is because they're going to get the best training on earth in whatever it is that they have been selected to do.
00:06:17
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Yep.
00:06:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I know that today's military goes way out of its way to try very hard to match the person's ah personal, the true um talent that they have and pointing them in that direction and giving them lots of training.
00:06:22
Caroline
That's right.
00:06:35
Caroline
Yeah. I agree.
00:06:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can't say enough for the training that they do.
00:06:42
Caroline
agree
00:06:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, 1969, when he shipped out for a two-year tour in war-torn Vietnam.
00:06:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, by 1969, the war was, you know, starting to wind down a little bit. But it was, you know, so it was really kind of a train wreck there, but not as much combat.
00:07:08
Caroline
yeah
00:07:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
man And that is where Jerry and the woman... who was then called Lee met or a she, she was, uh, Ting Sai Hu.
00:07:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then she went by the name Lee because she's in a, a military fort working.
00:07:28
Caroline
Right.
00:07:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, uh, you know, almost everybody there is, uh, speaking English. So she went by Lee. Lee was working at the post exchange. This is the hub of all on post shop shopping,
00:07:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that military personnel go for, you
Marriage under Pressure and Cultural Expectations
00:07:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
know, like life necessities, food, for example, clothing, and so forth. Purchases on post at that time were dirt cheap compared to a regular store. um there were They were all over the United States as well as wherever combat was happening.
00:08:00
Caroline
I was going to say there's a commissary right there in Marysville too. I mean, i used to get jealous of people who were able to shop there because you did get it dirt cheap.
00:08:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
cut Yeah, commissary.
00:08:09
Caroline
Hmm.
00:08:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They didn't pay much, but they are going to feed you really well and youre take care of your family and give you the place that they can live. And he saw Lee and he slipped her a note.
00:08:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, the note said, I'm going to marry you one day. It didn't say, hi i think you're cute. It didn't say, you are such a hard worker and I really admire you.
00:08:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It didn't say anything about her. It said, I am going to marry you someday. So not even thinking that this person might have, I don't know, a will of her own.
00:08:41
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Jerry says that he says this about his first encounter with Lee. I encounter the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid my eyes on.
00:09:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now that's a nice compliment maybe, but again, this is about you.
00:09:06
Caroline
I know, right?
00:09:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're not saying anything about her. You just want her by your side so you'll look better.
00:09:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Classic, you know, putting together your persona.
00:09:12
Caroline
that
00:09:16
Caroline
Well, that's it. And and at this time, I think that that's what we were all being indoctrinated. i say we like I was alive. I wasn't. But, you know, I watch a lot of content and pop culture from that era because it was an era I really liked as a kid.
00:09:33
Caroline
and But that was what you were taught. All movies. Men pursue women. women are pursued and they play hard to get, quote unquote, right? Like, so men are taught to not accept no as an answer. Women are taught to sort of like, just say yes to a decent man, you know? Like, it's, they're operating under a weird set of circumstances here, but you're right. What it really is, is coercion, sort of bullying, like exploitation.
00:10:05
Caroline
mean, he's just barking at her.
00:10:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, you know, i am superimposing my own thoughts and feelings from ah that time. i was already getting into a lot of trouble for noticing that men had all the power.
00:10:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i was probably about, I don't know, 1969. nineteen sixty nine I would have been, well, I'm not going to say because then everybody's going to know I am old as dirt. But anyway.
00:10:34
Caroline
Experienced. You're experienced.
00:10:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But here's how. here Here's how I look at him. I think he just stalked her and wooed her, depending on your mindset about men who don't take no for an answer.
00:10:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't like men who don't take no for an answer.
00:10:50
Caroline
Right, right. Yeah. right
00:10:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Is that bold or is he being arrogant or is he love bombing? I mean, you know, I'm going to go with love bomb, but anyway.
00:10:59
Caroline
yeah
00:11:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Lee was a proper Vietnamese girl, spurned the attentions of young enlisted men all around her all the time, including Jerry Jones.
00:11:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, she just, she knew her father would never approve. She knew that, you know, she would no longer be welcome in her family if she were to go out with, let alone marry, ah one of these soldiers.
00:11:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But, you know, Jerry Jones was not taking no for an answer. He would wait for Lee to get off work and offer her a ride. When she turned him down, he would drive slowly along beside her and escort her safely to her door. To me, that is stalking.
00:11:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I, back then, maybe, maybe, to me, it's just, I don't want to be stalked.
00:11:50
Caroline
Yeah, no, I think that's technically stalking.
00:11:58
Caroline
I think it's technically harassment. I mean, really, because imagine yourself in Lee's position. She's in Vietnam. Americans are there and like everything is not great.
00:12:11
Caroline
It's real tense. Everyone's upset with everyone and they're killing each other. And so like, She's just trying to make money and not piss her family off. And here's this guy who won't leave her alone. She's saying no. And he's an American. And I'm sure if there were some in her circle going, cash, money, girl, get it.
00:12:30
Caroline
You know, I just, I can't imagine.
00:12:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah, she was probably under a lot of pressure from all sides. I mean, i just feel so bad for her because I personally want to go back to Vietnam at that moment say, run, girl, run.
00:12:39
Caroline
i do, too.
00:12:44
Caroline
Yeah, it's fine here. You're doing fine. Just...
00:12:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, but Lee finally relented. She gave up is what I think, and they married in January of 1970. even though this made her an outcast in her family and she was forever estranged from her family.
00:13:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They got married. They had a child, a girl. And then when his tour in Vietnam was over, they moved to Marysville, Washington and had two additional children, a girl and a son. Now, Jerry retired as a senior master sergeant in 1984.
00:13:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
nineteen eightyf four Around that time in 1985, the family moved to a Bothell area home and Jerry went to work as a pharmaceutical company as a salesman.
00:13:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay, that pays a lot of money, Caroline.
00:13:35
Caroline
I was going to say, Bothell is a nice area.
00:13:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. They lived in a nice tri-level home.
00:13:42
Caroline
Oh, nice.
00:13:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So you got the downstairs and the then the main stairs and then the upstairs and, you know, you got like a stairway to heaven there.
00:13:47
Caroline
Nice.
00:13:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay. So... Life was busy. it was not always smooth. It was a very strict home. Jerry was in charge.
00:14:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
does that Does that shock you?
00:14:05
Caroline
No. He's probably stalking everybody in his car. Where are you going? What are you doing? You need a ride?
00:14:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If he was cheating on his wife, that's what he was doing. He was probably doing that with his children and his wife.
00:14:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:14:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to be watching you.
00:14:21
Caroline
Yes.
00:14:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'll know where you've been.
00:14:24
Caroline
Right.
00:14:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to check the odometer and then I'm going to recheck it.
00:14:27
Caroline
Which I think, I think it's really important and to note that there was a very close time where this was all normal. This all seemed like, oh, yeah, you got a strict dad.
00:14:38
Caroline
Oh, yeah, he's just like ah He really liked your mom. I mean, but in today's conversation, I think these would all be serious red flags, not just red flags, but intervening events like, hey, you can't be following people home in their car, Jerry.
00:14:54
Caroline
You know, that kind of stuff.
00:14:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, i think that Jerry was had one tool. He had one tool in his toolbox, and that tool was control.
00:15:06
Caroline
Mm hmm.
00:15:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Control.
00:15:11
Caroline
And coercion. like Like a little bit of bullying here. Following people around. Pressure, pressure, pressure.
00:15:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A little bit.
00:15:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, are you sure? It's just a little bit. I mean, I think that he was a control. Today we call them control freaks.
00:15:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think he was, you know, that's all he could take.
00:15:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He, I think it comes back from being in the South, a preacher's son from the Southern Baptist Church.
00:15:36
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:42
Caroline
I mean, hello.
00:15:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're going to take everything literally in terms of religious doctrine.
00:15:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you're going to apply it to everyone else in your sphere.
00:15:54
Caroline
Yes.
00:15:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was like that, in my opinion, based on what I've read and and what I've seen and some of my spiny senses.
00:15:57
Caroline
Yep.
00:16:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, Jerry was in charge. Kim Jones, their oldest child, she was the one that was born in Vietnam. She did not do well in school.
00:16:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was given an ultimatum by her parents, a.k.a. Jerry. You go to high school, you get a job, or you move out.
00:16:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Kim chose to move out. And she must have gone to live with one of her friends or something like that. I mean, you know,
00:16:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it's kind of like they say, you know, if, if you're a hammer, the whole world is, you see as a nail, you can't think outside your, what you are.
00:16:45
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:49
Caroline
yeah
00:16:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that Jerry was like that. And I think that in this marriage, you know, I i don't think that Lee had ah much of a say.
00:17:00
Caroline
yeah
00:17:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And if she did, i don't know what happened to her. But she, you know, she probably, and we're going to get into, she grew, I mean, she had a mind her own.
00:17:11
Caroline
yeah
00:17:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um she was starting to think about activating herself, I think, because now she's in a different culture.
00:17:19
Caroline
I was going to say, she at this point has been immersed. She has been with other mothers in the school system, other parents, I should say.
00:17:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep.
00:17:26
Caroline
But like she's getting the hang of this American choice thing. You know, we get to choose whatever the hell we want to do it any given day.
00:17:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. And, and you know, mother listen, after the Vietnam War, women's rights became exceedingly front and center.
00:17:40
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they call it women's liberation ah movement.
00:17:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I lived through that. But it was more of a rebellion.
00:17:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was a rebellion against the male-dominated culture, which, by the way, in my opinion, still is alive and well.
00:18:04
Caroline
Fully active. Yeah. Fully activated. Yeah.
00:18:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the marriage at this time was starting to flail, very strained.
Suicide Attempt and Marital Strain
00:18:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There was a separation in June of 1987. I want to go back to 1987 during this separation, and I want to say, Lee, please run away as fast as you can. You come live at my house.
00:18:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That same ah time, Lee attempted suicide by taking an overdose of drugs. She survived. And the Jones sought marriage counseling.
00:18:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they reconciled for about four months. But that is a mouthful, what I just said. She tried to kill herself.
00:18:49
Caroline
I was going to say, I feel that's heavier, I think, than, you know, we read this stuff about Lee on paper, but can you imagine being in Vietnam during the tail end of the Vietnam War? You're a daughter.
00:19:03
Caroline
You're constantly disappointing your family. This man won't stop following you to and from work. And he just is like, so you're thinking, okay, fine. And you get married and you go to America on paper. That's what all your friends wanted.
00:19:16
Caroline
Maybe. And now you're here and oh my God, you want to die. You feel so alone. You know what I mean? I just, i feel for Lee.
00:19:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, her and her daughter has just left their home, her first daughter.
00:19:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She didn't want to live anymore.
00:19:29
Caroline
oh and
00:19:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, because her life was with Jerry Jones.
00:19:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Privately, after all of this, and she came back and they went through counseling, Lee's friends told the court later after her death that Lee wanted out of that marriage.
00:19:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Even though her youngest child was very little and he was hadn't even started grade school yet, she wanted to die.
00:19:56
Caroline
Hmm.
00:19:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She wanted to die. That says a lot.
00:19:58
Caroline
Sad.
00:19:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe she felt like she was already dead.
00:20:01
Caroline
Well, yeah.
00:20:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know, her personhood had been, you know, run over by Jerry's car. Their middle child, Beth, was not interested in the kind of boys Jerry Jones liked.
00:20:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So one in particular that he would later try to pin the murder of his wife on his name was Brian Busby, a 15-year-old kid who was such a little different, a unsavory to Jerry Jones and a lot of other people too. He was rough,
00:20:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had a little bit of a temper problem.
00:20:33
Caroline
Okay. Oh,
00:20:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah You know, it came out later that none of his girlfriends or wife said that he ever struck them or with violence with them, but he was had a fury in him.
00:20:45
Caroline
okay
00:20:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um he would just get so mad, he would start growling.
00:20:50
Caroline
while
00:20:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And one time, ah the story goes that the littlest child in the Jones's family had seen him with his sister.
00:21:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this is the middle child who had him as a boyfriend. And he used to growl at him when he came around.
00:21:11
Caroline
you
00:21:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that's going to come back later. So anyway, it would be this kid who was accused of murder over three trials by Jerry Jones saying, Jerry Jones saying he's the real killer.
00:21:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So speaking of killing, let's just go get right into the murder. I hate this part because, ah you know, Lee died.
Murder of Lee Jones and Investigation
00:21:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i mean, she was murdered viciously. Just a few miles away from where we are recording right now is where the murder happened on December 3rd, 1988. Lee Jones was stabbed and murdered as she was preparing to take a bath in her home while her husband was just feet away in a nearby room.
00:21:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It was evening. Lee had not, she'd been out all day getting Christmas presents for the children, food, and so forth, caring for her two teenage daughters.
00:22:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
One of them, by the way, lived away from the family, and ah she was still caring for that daughter, who was a teenager, and her other daughter, who was dating this boy that the husband hated and loathed and
00:22:17
Caroline
Of course. Yeah.
00:22:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she was just 12 days away from the fifth birthday of her youngest child. So, you know, that's a happy time.
00:22:31
Caroline
That's very little. Yeah.
00:22:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When you have a little kid and you're playing the birthday party.
00:22:34
Caroline
Oh, my God. The fifth birthday is the, I mean, that's a huge one because they get a crown.
00:22:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:22:40
Caroline
They're, you know, I mean, it's just their day. Yes, absolutely.
00:22:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:22:43
Caroline
Absolutely.
00:22:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
After that day of such normal activities, Jerry and Lee were just staying in that night for a relaxing evening. I don't know how relaxed they could possibly be under martial law, but ah you know I imagine Lee was just dreaming about you know the birthday party and
00:22:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
thinking about her day of being with her daughters. At 9.51 p.m., Jerry was on a 911 call and said to hurry because his wife had been hurt.
00:23:04
Caroline
yeah
00:23:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Actually, Lee had been in the tub where she was strangled with a chain necklace around her throat, and she had been stabbed 63 times. This three times
00:23:27
Caroline
Whoa. That, whoa. What do they call that?
00:23:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this is
00:23:31
Caroline
The crime of passion? I mean, 60, right, geez.
00:23:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, Caroline, you're exactly right. who Who comes into a house? The man of the house is very close at hand.
00:23:45
Caroline
Right.
00:23:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The woman is in the bathroom. How would you even know that?
00:23:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, come on. But anyway, she ah had been stabbed 63 times, some slashing and some deep penetrating stabs.
00:24:03
Caroline
Jeez Louise. Ugh.
00:24:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
around her throat, around her head, in her body. The dispatcher asked for Joan's address, and he gave ah stammering address that was in error.
00:24:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, do you think he wanted the ambulance to get there as fast as possible?
00:24:22
Caroline
I was going to say that that's a chilling detail because if consciously he's doing that, ah this chills me to the bone that you would go this one extra mile to just really prevent.
00:24:38
Caroline
I don't know. i mean, it just creeped me out that he would do this because it does feel fake. Like, oh, I don't know.
00:24:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he had already waited to call 911 because he claims that he had all these distractions, which we'll get into in a minute.
00:24:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He apparently, though, when he was talking to 911, could not remember his actual address. He had a hard time differentiating between 169th Place Southeast of Mill Creek or the different address nearly 30 blocks away.
00:25:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you know how things are around here in a lot of other towns.
00:25:09
Caroline
I do. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. yeah
00:25:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You have to be very specific about where it is. And he was just going, well, yeah. Is it 169? I think it's 169. you just. Right.
00:25:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:25:25
Caroline
Yeah. And just so everyone's clear, like in the 80s, no, there is there's not even a MapQuest right now.
00:25:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
just
00:25:32
Caroline
You know, you can't just pop on the Internet for anything. So dispatch is relying on archaic forms of tracking if they're tracking to try and find your address at all.
00:25:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
right To dispatcher who was trying to calm him down, Jerry was panicky, and he said that he was also hurt by an intruder.
00:25:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And finally, he said that, I mean, finally, after leaving the phone several times, then coming
00:26:05
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
Suspicion on Jerry Jones and 911 Call
00:26:06
Caroline
Wow. Yeah.
00:26:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
back to the phone,
00:26:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and continuing to talk to the 911 operator, finally he said, my wife has been hurt. he He said, hurt, hurt, hurt, and finally laid in the call. He said, actually, she's been stabbed.
00:26:23
Caroline
wow
00:26:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And as I said, very oddly, Jerry kept leaving the phone to check on his wife, even though the dispatcher told him, do not leave this phone.
00:26:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Stay on this phone until the first responders arrived. This call was so unusual, the dispatcher said at trial. At one point, Jerry left the phone to take his little boy downstairs to stay until help came.
00:26:32
Caroline
yeah
00:26:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the little boy showed up with this his mother, you know, punctured 63 times and chain around her neck.
00:26:51
Caroline
Oh,
00:26:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he Jerry takes him finally downstairs downstairs. Until help came. How did he know that the intruder was not downstairs?
00:27:10
Caroline
Well, that's probably why the dispatcher was real weirded out because the dispatcher with but I mean, I don't have any of that training, but I know that they have specialized training in ways that I wouldn't think. Right. So to me, if you're going to call them and say intruder injuries, they have a twofold situation. Now they have an intruder active person. They don't know. they don't know where they're at and they're a danger and they have an injured person. So it's aid, but it's also police.
00:27:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And a child.
00:27:34
Caroline
They are not. Yeah.
00:27:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:27:35
Caroline
And they're not going to want you to move. Like you said, they're going to want you to hunker down Be alert. Attempt life-saving if possible, but if not, just hunker down because there's this intruder element.
00:27:46
Caroline
So yeah, that's a good point that this guy's acting so weird and why would you separate yourself from your child? If my child's not even five and there's a death in the house, we are both together in a ball in a closet somewhere.
00:27:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, Jerry was, when the police got there, they reported that that Jerry was covered in blood. Covered in blood.
00:28:09
Caroline
Oh Yeah.
00:28:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His hand had been sliced a little bit. Police looked at it and thought, geez, this looks like slices that come from a stabber losing their grip on the handle of the knife because of the blood. And as if they were stabbing, you know, so you're coming down and your hand is once things get bloody, your hand is going to slip down and you're going to be cutting yourself. Now, police see that a lot.
00:28:36
Caroline
yeah
00:28:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know, over time. They're going to recognize what that is, but it wasn't just that he was covered in blood from a hand injury. It was that he was covered everywhere on his body was blood.
00:28:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Police immediately suspected suspected him. he was covered in blood, claiming that he ran into the intruder who cut his hand. He had blood drenched between his legs in the crotch area.
00:29:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Police thought he probably straddled his wife's body as he stabbed her again and again and again and again. So that, I mean, you know, he had blood inside his legs, ah part of his jeans, just saturated.
00:29:17
Caroline
Oh, as if you could, yeah. Yeah.
00:29:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
While waiting for first responders, Jerry's little boy came downstairs, as I have already mentioned. So Jerry finally ended up taking him to the neighbor's.
00:29:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this was before the police arrived. Remember, he's leaving the phone all the time.
00:29:39
Caroline
yeah
00:29:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he he he knocked on the door and he said an intruder had knocked him out and he fell. But before he went to the neighbor's house, Jerry did a a ah very strange thing.
00:29:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Very strange, Caroline. He put his boots on. You know, he's going to go to a neighbor.
00:29:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:30:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But instead of going the neighbor, He went into the shower down the hall from his dead wife, and he got into the shower with his clothes on and his boots on, and he let the shower rain down on him and rinse off a lot of that blood.
00:30:15
Caroline
Why put your boots on before the shower? I don't get it. I don't get any of that.
00:30:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Why don't you take your clothes off? Why don't you go back to the phone where the 911 operator is?
00:30:27
Caroline
Yeah, this is weird.
00:30:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is strange. And his phone call to 911 was delayed as well because of giving them the wrong address. And he kept leaving the phone.
00:30:38
Caroline
yeah
00:30:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and he blames all that when he got to court on dealing with his little boy, who he took downstairs again, you know, not knowing where there was, where that's where the killer was. It's just crazy.
00:30:53
Caroline
The whole thing is so disjointed.
00:30:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's crazy.
00:30:55
Caroline
Like, none of it makes any sense.
00:30:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
now No, no.
00:30:58
Caroline
It's all out of order. and
00:30:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's running around like a chicken with his head cut off.
00:31:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and you know, he, he, I will give him this. If you walk in or you hear a scream and you go see what's going on and an intruder gets in your way and you knock the knife out of his hand, which is what he wound up saying.
00:31:17
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:22
Caroline
yeah
00:31:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, oh you know, you're going, you're going to do some crazy things or say some crazy things.
00:31:27
Caroline
Some weird stuff will happen, but honestly, like forensically, it all maps out. Because let's remember the the deputies will come in, even though it's the 80s, this is starting. they They come in like little AI agents and they just reconstruct. It's quite impressive what these forensic type of minds can can reconstruct in terms of accident scenes and stuff.
00:31:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I agree.
00:31:48
Caroline
but But I mean, this is just, this is just, this is mind boggling to me because it goes it harkens back to our last case of the Lizzie Borden where the the lynch key for me is when you stab someone in that sort of crime of passion kind of way, there's a switch off in your brain, which is why it's so intense and so many stab wounds.
00:32:09
Caroline
But the, forensically, the blood, yeah no one is coming out of that room without blood on them in some way, shape, or form.
00:32:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:32:17
Caroline
So, I mean, the idea that this man thinks he could take a fully clothed shower with shoes on and somehow impact that, other than to make it look suspicious, is, just seems weird to me.
00:32:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to speculate. Jerry Jones has an off switch and an on switch.
00:32:36
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's like a power ah connection with him. He has one speed and he's either on or he's off. He doesn't have a lot of practice being who he really is, which is a killer.
00:32:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that once he unleashed all this power and control, and then he realized, how am I going to come back from that? he does He just, hes his brain was going, I don't know what the hell you're doing.
00:33:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So we're just going to shut down for a little while.
00:33:12
Caroline
Moment. Yeah.
00:33:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You just go be you, go be you.
00:33:15
Caroline
Moment by moment. Yeah.
00:33:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was a wacky chicken with his head cut off. So Sheriff Deputy Joe Ward remembers the crime scene after Lee Jones was murdered in 1988.
00:33:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A homicide detective for the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office, he was sent to investigate the killing. And here I'm going to quote him. Mrs. Jones had received a lot of injuries to her body, all over her body,
00:33:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She had over 60 wounds. There were slashes. There were stabs, Ward remembers. It looked like she had fought for her life in that room, and she had lost.
00:33:58
Caroline
There you go. Yeah.
00:33:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jerry Jones was the only suspect.
00:33:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:34:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was the only one there. He slashed his hand during the stabbing, they believe, so they arrested him that night.
00:34:10
Caroline
there you go
00:34:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They just didn't believe what he had to say.
00:34:12
Caroline
yeah
00:34:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I read all of this. I researched all of this, and I still have a hard time believing what he said.
00:34:18
Caroline
yeah
00:34:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, yeah, they're going, buddy, you might as well have wrapped yourself in a banner. I did it.
00:34:26
Caroline
you know
00:34:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, they believed that he was guilty, and they arrested him. And he was charged with first-degree murder ah February 10, 1989, so a couple months later, six weeks later, six weeks later.
00:34:38
Caroline
no That's like the fastest I've ever heard of because, I mean, it was December.
00:34:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:34:43
Caroline
Yeah. Wow.
00:34:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Ron Dorsch was the deputy prosecutor who tried this case three times. He had to try it three times, Caroline, which we're going to get to.
00:34:53
Caroline
Oh, exactly.
00:34:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So let's, but this would be a good juncture to talk about the trials.
00:34:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:34:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I want to keep talking about Jerry and what is going on, not going on in his head, but let's, we're going to see it unfold in the trials. Here is Jerry Jones's story.
00:35:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jones told police he heard a noise and he responded and found his wife. So his noise that he heard was a scream. ah Caroline, if somebody's being stabbed 60 times, you're going hear more than one scream.
00:35:26
Caroline
Oh you're gonna hear crashing
00:35:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're going to hear thudding. You're going to hear slamming. You're going to hear, help me You're going to hear all kinds of stuff.
00:35:33
Caroline
oh yeah
00:35:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
As he ran down the hallway, he says, someone brushed by him and pushed him against the wall. He says he tried to grab the knife ah from the intruder's hand. some Sometimes he would say, actually, I knocked the the knife down.
00:35:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Deputy Ward, you know, called his story, quote, unbelievable. Jerry Jones first said that he knocked the knife to the floor and he was cut in the process.
00:36:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, Caroline, you don't get cut on your hand from a falling knife.
00:36:15
Caroline
Oh my gosh.
00:36:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
the The first trial ended with a guilty verdict, but the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in 1999 that Jones's lawyer had been ineffective and that another trial would
Trials and Accusations against Brian Busby
00:36:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
be needed. So, you know, meanwhile, Jerry's been in jail. He's been in prison since 1989. So he's there for 10 years, but now he's getting a new trial.
00:36:38
Caroline
oh my gosh
00:36:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At the second trial, which started 2001,
00:36:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He also was found guilty. I mean, you know, okay, go back.
00:36:47
Caroline
Yeah. yeah
00:36:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Remarkably, and an appeals court reversed that conviction, saying that the jury didn't hear crucial evidence. Now, the crucial critical evidence was about Brian Busby, who by now was a grown man, but was 15 years old at the time of the murder.
00:37:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, this is the name of the boy that was dating the middle sister of ah Lee and Jerry.
00:37:18
Caroline
yeah
00:37:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Jerry hated him with a passion, would not allow his daughter to see him and ah even though the first trial found only one possible suspect, and the same was true in the second trial, the second trial was nullified because the evidence against Brian Busby, which they had none, it was nil.
00:37:41
Caroline
Right.
00:37:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They had no evidence under, it must be this boy.
00:37:45
Caroline
Right. Other than the accusation.
00:37:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
now That's the, yeah.
00:37:47
Caroline
yeah
00:37:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
For some reason, the appeals court thought that that should have been included in the trial, but it had been determined to be, have no merit. And it had been, you know, taken out of pretrial motions before the trial.
00:38:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So now there'd be a third trial.
00:38:03
Caroline
That bothered me, that second trial overturning, because it's such a technicality. Like, I understand technicalities and, yes, do-over and blah, blah, blah. I do think there's a threshold where maybe that no longer is at play, say, in murder trials, where loss of life has occurred, thus we don't need technical issues allowing someone who took a life to go free.
00:38:28
Caroline
Acknowledge them, but move on to the hardcore evidence.
00:38:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I agree.
00:38:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. One exception, oh well, let me go back. Trial number three was pretty... He's going to get tried a third time.
00:38:43
Caroline
yeah
00:38:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the same prosecutors come coming after him.
00:38:48
Caroline
That poor prostitutes.
00:38:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that prosecutor, he he ah he said a lot.
00:38:50
Caroline
It's probably just...
00:38:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you know, he was he was very upset about these ah the overturning of these verdicts.
00:38:58
Caroline
Oh, I bet. I'm pissed. Because they're not substantive to the issue, which is evidence of your murdering and then you murdered. like It's frustrating when that happens in a murder trial.
00:39:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he He was so frustrated and, you know, so, and he was worried. You just have to worry that, you know, another jury is going to be looking at this.
00:39:14
Caroline
Of course.
00:39:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Are they going to see through Jerry's schemes?
00:39:19
Caroline
Totally. Oh, totally.
00:39:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So trial number three was pretty much a rehash of a rehash of a rehash with one or two exceptions. One exception was that on the stand for questioning this time and cross-examination was Brian Busby.
00:39:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, it had been 14 years since the murder, and Brian's life had been greatly impacted by Jerry Jones's accusations of him.
00:39:48
Caroline
Of course.
00:39:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was he was a negative person. He was very rough-talking person. he But then again, nobody ever came forward to say he he was violent against me. No women.
00:40:02
Caroline
Well, like let's be real.
00:40:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had a wife. No, no, no.
00:40:05
Caroline
I think Busby is a name that sounds familiar in this region. There are like a handful, like five names in the area where where we grew up, like out here in Snohomish County, And a lot of them come from timber, lumber, ah you know, rail. Like, these are hardcore industries that built the West Coast of the United States.
00:40:26
Caroline
So, yeah, you know, when you talk about redneck, or roughneck, plenty of people out here carry around a lot of anger.
00:40:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Absolutely.
00:40:34
Caroline
You know, they got back pain by 15.
00:40:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, he was right. he would
00:40:35
Caroline
Like...
00:40:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Here's what I like about Brian. You know, he he hasn't really changed. Now, I know that probably causes him a lot of grief. And a lot of people for a long time thought he was a killer.
00:40:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah I won't say a lot, but enough to make him a pariah.
00:40:52
Caroline
ah Somebody who didn't like him, I'm sure. Yeah.
00:40:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Right. And one of his features is that when he becomes frustrated or angry, he does growl.
00:41:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And by that, by growl, I mean, oh you know, who doesn't do that?
00:41:06
Caroline
I was just going to say, I growled. Dad used to grit his teeth and growl. That's what I knew. He needs some faith.
00:41:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:41:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. ah Jerry's little boy toward police told police the night of the murder that he heard growling. Aside from there being no blood, no prints, no footprints, no evidence that Brian had been in that home ever, let alone that night, it was clear that he was haunted and lived in reclusivity due to the cloud over his head for half of his life thus far.
00:41:43
Caroline
That makes me sad. he was 15.
00:41:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In my mind, it was Jerry who was growling while he mutilated his wife.
00:41:45
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, do i sometimes I think he he was growling because that's what people do. They get exhausted and they just huff and they puff and it can come out with teeth clenched as a growl.
00:41:57
Caroline
yeah
00:42:01
Caroline
yeah
00:42:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I think maybe he also knew that his little boy was going to be awakened by all this noise and the growling that the little boy had heard from Brian over the time that he dated his sister, maybe he was trying to fake that.
00:42:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:25
Caroline
Yeah, maybe.
00:42:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So because he knew in his mind he was going to blame Brian.
00:42:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that, I don't know, but I have, I could believe either scenario if he would ever, you know, Jerry would ever confess.
00:42:40
Caroline
yeah
00:42:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The second big change was Jerry in this, in this third trial was Jerry Jones represented himself.
Self-Representation and Narcissism in Court
00:42:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He just said, well, I know the case better than anybody.
00:42:51
Caroline
Oh, no.
00:42:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was very calm. He was very slick. his usual smooth operator, but now the jury could see it. So, you know, he thought, he said he wanted to show the jury what a mild-mannered man he is.
00:43:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He could not possibly have murdered his wife. His children were there, and his daughters were very much on Team Jerry. When I say his children were there, I mean at the court.
00:43:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's got two grown daughters and they are on Team Jerry. Yeah, well, you know, if you may be deep in the recesses of your mind, think that your father killed your mother, you're going to be on the father's side. He's the one that's living.
00:43:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or they may have been just impossible to believe that their father killed their mother. I don't know.
00:43:41
Caroline
but yeah That part.
00:43:47
Caroline
I do think people underestimate the part of the brain that is meant to protect us from trauma that we experience. Meaning, you know, people don't have memory of certain traumatic events. They just don't. They know it happened.
00:44:00
Caroline
They're willing to admit that. But their brain has decided that they are not retaining any of the imagery or recollection from that event. Absolutely.
00:44:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, to be the daughter of a killer is not something that I would want to be.
00:44:18
Caroline
No, you don't want to think that way about your family and yourself.
00:44:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that might have, I think it's exactly what you're saying. they There's no way that they can walk with their head held high in the community where they live if they believe that their father killed their mother.
00:44:40
Caroline
Right.
00:44:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So i i I'm not putting them down at all.
00:44:45
Caroline
No.
00:44:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah I just don't know whether it's true that they feared him Or they loved him, or probably, possibly both.
00:44:52
Caroline
Right. Both, yeah.
00:44:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, asked if he would, how he got wet ah the night of the murder. Jerry testified that he heard water running in the master bedroom shower, and he went to turn it off, and that's when he realized he was bleeding, so he stepped inside the shower.
00:45:19
Caroline
o
00:45:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Really? Really?
00:45:20
Caroline
No.
00:45:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What?
00:45:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's not the story Jerry told in his first trial.
00:45:27
Caroline
Oh, whoops.
00:45:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Dersh believed he had caught Jerry in a lie and he whipped out transcripts, reading Jerry's own words back to him, ah which were, open the shower door and start reaching in and turn the shower off and step in, close and all, and I let the water run down from the top of my head down to the front of my body, Dersh read.
00:45:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's reading ah transcripts.
00:45:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah Jerry's answer to that is, well, you're reading that what I read. So if you are reading it, what I read, then that is what was written.
00:46:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but
00:46:10
Caroline
True statement.
00:46:13
Caroline
Excellent job.
00:46:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was, you know, he was trying to, he had to acknowledge the fact of what was in quotes in a legal document, but somehow, well, if that's what you say, I guess that that's what you say.
00:46:16
Caroline
i
00:46:20
Caroline
Oh, totally.
00:46:23
Caroline
Whoops.
00:46:28
Caroline
I mean, that's what I would say if I was caught in a, well, two years ago, you said it like this.
00:46:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean.
00:46:32
Caroline
Well, if that's how I said it two years ago, that's how I said it two years ago. I mean, then what else can you say?
00:46:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah After just a handful of questions, Dersh retreated, surprising Jerry in the cross-examination. It wasn't a long cross-examination.
00:46:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jerry, the attorney, ah or Jerry says, ah I believe that Dersh was fairly convinced that he had lost the trial. That's why he did not cross-examine me.
00:47:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah So why didn't Dersh go after Jones more aggressively? He says, just because I have a stick to hit him with doesn't mean I'm going to hit him with the stick.
00:47:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what he said.
00:47:14
Caroline
I love this guy.
00:47:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I do, too. He decided to use that stick in his closing arguments.
00:47:22
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's not going to engage this person.
00:47:25
Caroline
um mean, you don't bring a stick to trial to not use stick at some point.
00:47:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, I think that Dursch was just so disgusted by this killer slash consummate liar slash actor, this con man.
00:47:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was so sick of him that he didn't want to stand up there and talk to him.
00:47:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:48
Caroline
Well, and there's an element, too, where you don't want to push so hard. i can say this because sometimes it's happened to me. Where you are so mean to someone people want to see people be mean to that people begin to feel sympathy for the person who is now like, i yes, we all hate him, but gee, you're being awful mean.
00:48:07
Caroline
You know, that kind of thing. You don't want to drum up sympathy for the devil on any front.
00:48:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes.
00:48:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, you know, there was a book that I read one time that made a very interesting point. I wish I could remember this book. Oh, yeah, it's called Necessary Losses.
00:48:24
Caroline
Oh. Yeah. Oh, nice.
00:48:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I forget the name of the writer, but it was a very good book about losses that you can't avoid during a lifetime or are hard to avoid if they happen to you.
00:48:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:31
Caroline
yeah um now
00:48:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway... My point and what it has to do with Jerry Jones and Durst, prosecutor, is that in nature, conflict with someone, if you're a wild animal, which humanity is at some level,
00:48:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That is a form of intimacy. You have to get very close up with your enemy and you have to grab a hold of that enemy until you beat the life out of your enemy and that human beings don't realize it.
00:48:57
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:05
Caroline
yeah
00:49:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But when they are arguing with somebody all the time, that is a very intimate relationship that you're having with somebody, even when you're in conflict with yourself.
00:49:21
Caroline
yeah
00:49:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're getting, you know, ah so my point is conflict is a form um m of intimacy.
00:49:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And if you do not want to get close to a person, don't love on them and don't fight them either.
00:49:37
Caroline
And don't fight him either. Yeah. Good point. Yeah.
00:49:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that's what this part of this case reminded me of, is that Dersh was drained of his energy to try to understand this man, get under his skin, fight with him.
00:49:54
Caroline
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:49:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, he's going to save that for the jury. So the first thing out of his mouth was exhibit one for the state is Jerry Jones because he's still here.
00:50:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i just love that.
00:50:09
Caroline
Damn. This guy's not messing around.
00:50:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, and he is still alive. adding day Danny Busby is offered up as the boogeyman, and he is not, he did not kill Lee Jones.
00:50:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We know who killed Lee Jones. It was Jerry Jones. I mean, on closing arguments, he said, Jerry Jones's name is on the ballot, not Danny Busby.
00:50:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's outrageous that we are talking about him. It just does not add up.
00:50:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Jerry's closing was basically, I had no motive. I was, I am not a violent person. I'm not an explosive person.
00:51:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm the person you see standing before you today. And he was very emotional. He cried a little bit. Con man.
00:51:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, Durst thinks that Jerry's tearful closing was rehearsed, not genuine. He rehearsed it until he could get those tears to come.
00:51:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think the jury got to see who Jerry Jones really is, that he was acting in his own closing statement. And for the third time, Jerry Jones' fate was in the hands of the jury.
00:51:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And after here here's the verdict, Caroline.
Guilty Verdict and Relief
00:51:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
After a grueling three-week trial, jurors reached a verdict in just four and a half hours. The short deliberation worried Durst because moments later the verdict was read, guilty as charged, and he no longer worried, and he just breathed for the first time in a long time.
00:52:07
Caroline
Thank God. Very, very true. Yeah.
00:52:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jurors remember a tense courtroom as they filed in with their verdict. One of them said, I looked at Jerry Jones and I looked at Ron Durst. I think both of those guys have had a very personal role in this thing over the last 16 years.
00:52:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
True words.
00:52:30
Caroline
very very true
00:52:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you cannot You cannot be in combat with someone and not be in an intimate relationship. What was Jerry thinking as he heard the verdict?
00:52:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You just shake your head in disbelief and you just say, what on earth are they thinking? That was his quote when someone asked him that question.
00:52:51
Caroline
oh ge
00:52:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm just shaking my innocent head. What on earth were they thinking? ah For Dersh, getting a third conviction was a tremendous relief, and he believed that justice was served again, just as it was served in 2001, just as it had been served in 1989.
00:53:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
nineteen eighty nine It was the right verdict, he said.
00:53:16
Caroline
Nice.
00:53:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So jurors say they did not buy your Jerry's ah version of events. ah One juror said, we went through everything and it just did not fit, says one juror, who questioned Jerry's explanation for the cuts on his hand.
00:53:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jurors also didn't buy Jerry's story of only hearing a single scream as his wife was being stabbed 63 times in the next room. I've lived in a split level house myself, one jury said.
00:53:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
One juror, I could be downstairs and hear stuff going on upstairs in the bathroom. I think it was a terrible struggle. Of course it was a terrible struggle. And I think you would have heard noise all over that house.
00:54:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this was a female juror who remarked, ah meaning, you know, she probably is right.
00:54:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, you you got kids on one level and you got, you know, a ball game on the down.
00:54:10
Caroline
I'm with her.
00:54:11
Caroline
you Yeah.
00:54:15
Caroline
Yeah. We all live in homes. We know what you can hear.
00:54:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
like Yeah.
00:54:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can sometimes hear what goes on in other people's houses.
00:54:22
Caroline
I know. It's yeah.
00:54:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's why I try really hard not to yell at my dogs, Caroline, but it's hard.
00:54:28
Caroline
Oh God.
00:54:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, the jury also thought that the 911 call was way off. On the whole 911 tape, he never cried, one juror remarked.
00:54:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then he would put the phone down and he would run and he would go do this and then he'd put the phone down and he'd run and go do that. And when you're on the phone with 911, you stay on the phone.
00:54:51
Caroline
I was going to say, even just reading it just now, just like that, sounds like a drugged out human being, just totally out of control. I mean, yeah, weird. It's weird not to call 911 and stay right there on the phone with them.
00:55:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, you know what I always say about narcissists, and it's because I read it in a book or more than one book. ah What I say about narcissists is they have no insight into how other people perceive them.
00:55:16
Caroline
Right. Yeah. 100%. No.
00:55:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because they got no empathy.
00:55:20
Caroline
no
00:55:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's just thinking if I were a juror, but he has no way of getting out of his own head because all he can think about is in himself.
00:55:26
Caroline
Right. Right. Yeah. right
00:55:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's all he cares about. The jury also ah thought that ah there were other jurors that thought the 911 call was off. I mean, way, way off. And what about Busby?
00:55:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The person Jerry claims is the real killer. While jurors found Busby unlikable, they also felt that there was no real evidence linking him to the crime.
00:55:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was being very honest, they said, about the fact that he he had hit a few women, but not in a violent way. He would push their head into a steering wheel, for example.
00:56:06
Caroline
That's violent.
00:56:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he would never fight them, beat them up. So he was very, um he was aggressive and he was, could be mean and he had an explosive temper, but he never beat anybody up.
00:56:19
Caroline
Right.
00:56:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was never violent. He's just frustrated. And there were plenty of women who came to the stand and and said as much.
00:56:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he admitted everything.
00:56:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, I did that.
00:56:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, I did that too.
00:56:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:33
Caroline
mean, again, people are and sometimes we accept the fallibilities and then other times they go off and murder and that we just cannot accept.
00:56:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And
00:56:44
Caroline
So, you know.
00:56:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So basically what I'm saying is the jury believed him.
00:56:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They certainly did not believe Jerry Jones, and they didn't think he had a very good story.
00:56:51
Caroline
Yes.
00:56:53
Caroline
Yes.
00:56:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So five days after being convicted, Jones returned to court for sentencing, and for the third time, his daughters asked for compassion.
Family Dynamics and Daughters' Dilemma
00:57:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They said, everybody knows how much we love our dad, but they seem to forget how much we loved our mother, too.
00:57:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Beth Jones said. And I don't think anybody has forgotten any of that or doesn't think any of that. They just feel sorry for you, lady. I mean, look who you your mother's dead and your father killed her.
00:57:21
Caroline
Yeah, I'm glad she said that, though. um'm I was happy she said it because it recognizes, it really sums up the place that these kids are now in. We don't have a place where we're going to be happily settled in either missing our mother or or standing by our murderous father. I mean, it's just, you know, they're just in a tough spot.
00:57:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's an impossible spot to to really comprehend. Now, there was one um critical victim impact statement person, and that is Pam O'Keefe, Busby's mother.
Pam O'Keefe's Criticism of Jerry
00:57:58
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, she just blasted him without going into every single word she said. She just said, you know, basically, Jerry Jones does not deserve sympathy. The evil started the night Jerry Jones murdered his wife, and the next day the evil continued when he accused my son.
00:58:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She says no one knows how years of being vilified affected his life. His mother believes Jerry needs to be punished for all of the lives that he has damaged.
00:58:23
Caroline
yeah
00:58:29
Caroline
Agreed.
00:58:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His children, her child, and the murder of Lee.
00:58:30
Caroline
Yep.
00:58:33
Caroline
yeah
00:58:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And even the judge, when he pronounced sentence, he said, you are so bad for going after this
00:58:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:58:51
Caroline
Well, yeah, he was 15.
00:58:53
Caroline
That ruined his future.
00:58:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:58:56
Caroline
I don't care what you say or do about it.
00:58:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:58:58
Caroline
That ruined his future. ruined a future of self-love, ruined a future of self-confidence, of that's it.
00:59:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was stuck at 15. he he He had a very hard time progressing.
00:59:11
Caroline
Well, yeah.
00:59:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the judge even told him, this is over for you, son.
00:59:12
Caroline
And he's...
00:59:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is over for you. He was about 30 at the time of the third trial.
00:59:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:20
Caroline
No.
00:59:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He just said, yeah that you need to do with your life what you want to do with your life and become the person you want to be.
00:59:27
Caroline
That's right. That's right.
00:59:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what he told him.
00:59:30
Caroline
Good. Because that was robbed from him at 15. Because 15, I couldn't process it at 30. But it happened to him at 15. And it didn't even get acknowledged until 30 that this has happened to you.
00:59:43
Caroline
You know?
00:59:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right, right.
00:59:44
Caroline
Oh, I just feel bad.
00:59:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, the cloud is lifted off of your head, says the judge.
00:59:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So when it was Jerry's turn to ah talk, he just was very remorseful. He said, I wish Danny Busby's name had not come into my mind.
01:00:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I have no reason to bring his name into these proceedings. So, you know, he just was so ah pitiful, and he just said, I never should have brought Danny Busby's name into this courtroom. And he he was just trying to be so sweet so the judge wouldn't...
01:00:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah would let him go with time served. But the judge sentenced Jerry for the third time to 25 years. And he of course, the time he had served thus far ah would count.
01:00:39
Caroline
Okay. so
01:00:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yet just a few months later, Back in prison, Jerry Jones ah was asked by a Dateline or, you know, 48 hours or something like that.
Jerry's Refusal to Apologize
01:00:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah He was asked, do you think that you owe Busby an apology? And Jones said, no, I do not owe that man an apology and none will be forthcoming.
01:01:08
Caroline
ok
01:01:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's going back on his, now he's giving a more genuine answer.
01:01:12
Caroline
right what he really in his heart of hearts was thinking oh well yeah
01:01:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think it's entirely likely that at this point he's managed to convince himself that he did not commit this murder, says Jersh. For him, the battle against Jerry Jones is over.
01:01:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He just feels so good about having it behind him.
01:01:30
Caroline
oh heck yeah
01:01:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Caroline, this whole story of a family murder of a wonderful mother and a beautiful friend, community member, and human being was murdered viciously in the one place she should have been safe, in her home, about to take a shower, take a bath.
01:01:50
Caroline
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:01:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is about the evil that is Jerry Jones. And I use that word Because before we end this podcast, I want to tell our listeners about the day Jerry Jones's verdict came in from the third trial.
01:02:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, I was working near the courthouse. My office window was right across from the courtyard between the courthouse and the admin building. I was talking with somebody in my doorway, and my back was turned to the courtyard, and then suddenly...
01:02:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I had a chill, I mean a chill, similar to the one you get when you have the flu or a virus.
01:02:28
Caroline
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:02:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're just but like, it's not cold, but your got soak I got so cold I started to shiver. yeah And then I could feel like a snake coming up my spine.
01:02:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So these are my spiny senses, I guess. But I turned around, and there was a compact man very close to my window.
01:02:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
very tidy black turtleneck hanging out with a few men in suits. They were very near my window. And the visitor at my door said, I think that's Jerry Jones.
01:03:03
Caroline
wow.
01:03:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he proceeded to tell me the story of this killer on trial for the first time. So these were my spiny senses going off like fireworks. I wasn't even looking at the man.
01:03:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I didn't know who he was.
01:03:18
Caroline
ah wow
01:03:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I raced to the woman in the next office who is a dear friend to me. And over, ah we worked very closely together, and she straightened me out on many, many occasions.
01:03:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And i I went over there and I told her what happened. And first thing out of her mouth, by means he's guilty that you had that feeling. Or something to that effect.
01:03:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and And then a few days later, I heard a juror tell her impressions. on TV. So the jurors, some jurors are being interviewed by local TV.
01:03:52
Caroline
there
01:03:55
Caroline
yeah
01:03:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I listened to and one of the ladies said, I don't know, Mr. Jones, but he gave me the creeps.
01:04:02
Caroline
See? Oh my gosh.
01:04:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I know that the spiny senses are there for a reason.
01:04:09
Caroline
Yeah. Yes.
01:04:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
My, um my back was to my window.
01:04:16
Caroline
I was going to say, it's just a testament to don't try to even understand them or rationalize them, but acknowledge them.
01:04:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
01:04:22
Caroline
Like that, I'm going to, nope, got to go.
01:04:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
01:04:25
Caroline
Yep.
01:04:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and And my coworker and now great friend, she knew exactly what it meant and why I had that spiny sense come over me that he's guilty.
01:04:32
Caroline
Yeah.
01:04:36
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah, steer clearer of that guy.
01:04:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, from from that from that spot where he was hanging out on that day, outside in the courtyard, he was waiting for the verdict.
01:04:49
Caroline
Yeah.
01:04:51
Caroline
Oh, my God.
01:04:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he, when he went back in, he got the verdict all right.
01:04:55
Caroline
Yeah, and then went to jail.
01:04:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And my friend was right.
01:04:56
Caroline
ah Wow.
01:04:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's guilt. That means he's guilty, Bridget.
01:05:00
Caroline
So creepy. Yeah.
01:05:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to end it right there because I really can only say i wish that Lee Jones... had listened to her spiny senses when this man was stalking her.
01:05:16
Caroline
Yeah.
01:05:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If she had them, I don't know.
01:05:23
Caroline
It was a different time. It was hard to acknowledge that.
01:05:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I mean, you know, for for myself and everyone listening, if somebody, you know, if you get the heebie-jeebies over somebody, get out of their way.
01:05:33
Caroline
oh
01:05:36
Caroline
Just go with the heebie-jeebie.
01:05:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Don't overlook it.
01:05:38
Caroline
Don't, yeah, don't try to pretend like they don't deserve that.
01:05:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
01:05:41
Caroline
Who cares? Get out of there.
01:05:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right, right. So, Caroline, our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject.
01:05:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Episodes are aired every other week. Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe. This helps new listeners find us. And thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate you.
01:06:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And don't forget to live and let live. Oh, bye-bye, Caroline.
01:06:18
Caroline
Bye-bye.