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Vincent Brothers, Killer and Con Man
48 Plays1 month ago
The real Vincent Brothers was invisible. He only came out to lie, con and kill his entire family.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hearth, Home, and Homicide'
00:00:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello, listeners. I'm Bridget.
00:00:03
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You are listening to Hearth, Home, and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I narrate each story. Andy is our producer.
00:00:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
As Caroline and I talk about each family member, we want to see the killer brought to justice, whatever that may look like.
Generational Trauma of Family Murders
00:00:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we also want to think about the family and friends and just the just the residue of a family murder.
00:00:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The ripple effect on family murders just never ends. It it becomes ah almost a generational trauma in many cases.
The Case of Vincent Brothers
00:00:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, today we're going to be talking about a family annihilator. I think maybe technically he's got other family members he didn't annihilate, but he annihilated enough to make me think of him that way. His name is Vincent Brothers.
00:01:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Today's family murder takes place in Bakersfield, California. Now, Caroline, you were telling me that you think of Bakersfield in a certain way.
00:01:09
Caroline
I do, because I know that it's dirty, dusty, and got nothing going on. Like, that's the rumor. um And that's true. But it also, i see it as the gateway to Yosemite, which is one of the most beautiful places on the planet, but for me.
00:01:26
Caroline
um So I have a special place in my heart for Bakersfield. Not that I've ever lived there. i only ever drive through there if I'm going to Yosemite. But that's where i find love for Bakersfield.
00:01:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, and I've never been to Yosemite, but you and Andy went there, and I remember just you could not stop talking about it Andy, of course, was living there, but anyway, yeah, we're going to be in the gateway to Yosemite, Bakersfield, California, and their family annihilator see, keep saying it, Vincent Brothers, murdered his wife, mother-in-law, and his own three children, and who were just babies, a toddler and babies, toddlers and babies.
00:02:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it's awful.
00:02:12
Caroline
Hmm.
00:02:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's the worst kind of awful. And we're going to have to buckle up because the killer managed to hide out in a life that he created for himself that was not true.
00:02:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he you know crafted himself as a benevolent man of education who cherished his family, who cherished other people's children because he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, as Aesop used to say.
00:02:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And really, I think he is a selfish killer who wanted at what he wanted, no matter the cost to other people. But you're going to find out all of the things he did to create this persona that was just a big lie.
00:03:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Did he feel entitled to destroy that which he thought he created so that he could move on to focus on his own enrichment, status, and control?
00:03:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or was he just an ordinary human wrecking ball That's what Caroline and I are trying to figure out by talking about it in this episode.
Vincent's Double Life and Career
00:03:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So ah let's talk about Vincent Brothers.
00:03:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was born on May 31st, 1962, one of 10 children to his mother, Margaret. His childhood friend, Donald Collier said that Vincent always had a kind of Pied Piper personality.
00:03:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you're going to see in the story of what he does and what he's doing while he's doing what he does is a Pied Piper. He has a way of getting people to follow him.
00:04:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Kids gravitated to Vincent.
00:04:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He just, I mean, he had a special charm. ah hate it when people talk about that when it comes to chillers But I get it.
00:04:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, think about Ted Bundy.
00:04:19
Caroline
yeah Yeah. I mean, it is kind of a common theme amongst people.
00:04:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:26
Caroline
I never saw it coming. You know, such a charming person.
00:04:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, I know. And, you know, people think good thoughts about people who are handsome and and ah have a magnetic personality.
00:04:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:37
Caroline
I remember the first time I got flowers from a boy, the look on your face, because I was like, oh, isn't it sweet? You were like, be suspicious.
00:04:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, my God.
00:04:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
so true. So true. Yeah. I mean, why did you what what is this about?
00:04:50
Caroline
Just be suspicious.
00:04:57
Caroline
Right, right, right.
00:04:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What did you do?
00:05:00
Caroline
don't Don't just take it at face value.
00:05:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
what it
00:05:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What is he trying to get you to do? i just have such a suspicious mind. Anyway, Vincent had a special charm. Children especially would run out.
00:05:02
Caroline
Dig deeper.
00:05:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
like he was the ice cream man when they saw him come in, they would just hug his legs and they loved him This friend also noted that getting into trouble was very easy where they lived before Vincent left home and joined the military.
00:05:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So here we see this man with all this charm. He's one of 10. his mother, ah thought that he was like the best child because he was so well behaved.
00:05:46
Caroline
Right.
00:05:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He never caused her any trouble. And, you know, he, he was out there building collateral for the whole big family by being this charmer.
00:05:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:05:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, if a member of your family's charming, then there's going to be a leap to, oh, you must be charming mother. You must be a charming brother.
00:06:04
Caroline
It's so true. Like when when the public and the community at large loves your children, they instantly love you.
00:06:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They think you must be doing things right.
00:06:10
Caroline
The reverse is true also.
00:06:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he went into the military, which I admire. I think that that is a way for many young men and women to launch themselves into a kind of a scary situation, a daunting situation, a noble situation,
00:06:19
Caroline
yeah. yeah.
00:06:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And something that is going to be like things you got to know and things you got to learn so fast. And that everybody knows it, but they go there because the opportunities are fantastic.
00:06:48
Caroline
yeah
00:06:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You get job training there.
00:06:50
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:06:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You get a training about how to handle your emotions in the military.
00:06:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All of those things. And there's a dark side too, obviously. But... I do think that it takes a lot of courage to go down to that enlistment station and, you know, enlist and leave your home.
00:07:13
Caroline
I do, too.
00:07:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he did that.
00:07:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so he also got into the Marine Corps, which they're very picky.
00:07:19
Caroline
Oh, wow. Yes, they are. they're They're the strong lot.
00:07:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you and my brother and I have a son who went into the Marine Corps and he was a very, very ah good person and still is.
00:07:24
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
he, Not only was he a good person, but he had a clean record. And they're they're only going to take you if they think that you're going to bring honor upon the U.S. Marine Corps.
00:07:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he went to college and he graduated college. And then he went into the Marine Reserves. So he's going to continue to draw a paycheck, but also serve his country.
00:07:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he headed west in the mid-80s to complete a master's degree at California State Bakersfield. So that's where he wound up in Bakersfield.
00:08:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, they so far, I really like this guy.
00:08:14
Caroline
Yeah, you're charmed. Yeah.
00:08:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm suspending my knowledge of him.
00:08:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I'm seeing how people might be drawn to him.
00:08:26
Caroline
Yeah. Well, I mean, thus far, yeah, thus far, you've checked out, like you said, it's a very ah average, normal route one would take in life.
00:08:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
smart people. Yes.
00:08:36
Caroline
You know, you're a kid. you You go through high school, you get your friends, you get your reputation, you know, in your town, and then you go on and you, and you're right.
00:08:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:08:45
Caroline
Military is a very common way for folks to launch themselves up into whatever it is they might want to achieve. It's a great launching pad.
00:08:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Yeah. And he, He had discipline at this point because it does it's not easy to pass ah to get a bachelor's degree. It is not easy to get a master's degree, especially in you know ah a state college where plenty of people are trying to get in and you better catch up.
00:09:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You better stay caught up.
00:09:17
Caroline
Where are they?
00:09:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So now during this time, he had two brief marriages, And they both ended, he even had a daughter during one of these marriages.
00:09:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they ended, they ended, even as he rose quickly as a school administrator.
00:09:37
Caroline
oh
00:09:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was having troubles, you know, with his relationships. But he was having success in finding a job and rising to the upper levels of what I would call a very good profession, teaching and helping children learn what they need to learn in order to succeed in the world.
00:09:54
Caroline
Absolutely.
00:10:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, there are these two brief mesh marriages we're going to talk about because what came out during his murder trial, he was abused. He abused his two wives.
00:10:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he had spent time in jail. for his assaults.
The Harper Family Background
00:10:23
Caroline
Seriously?
00:10:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So already I've got some questions about people who are hiring this person who has spent time in jail for, yeah, and you you're hiring him as a school administrator?
00:10:31
Caroline
Thank you.
00:10:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What kind of background checks do you do?
00:10:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But, you know, it's not anybody's fault what's going to happen except for Vincent Brothers.
00:10:45
Caroline
Right.
00:10:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I do want to point out that it's not like he's not showing any symptoms.
00:10:55
Caroline
Yes, there you go. I mean, there are some moments of opportunity to intervene in what is clearly two different personalities, right? Two different lives being lived. You've got your external life and your internal life. Now, that is true for a lot of us, generally, because that's what courtesy is all about.
00:11:16
Caroline
But rarely do the lives diverge so greatly that you can't expose both to the public, right? mean,
00:11:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, you and I both work in in the workplace and I'm retired now, but I certainly spent most of my life in a workplace. There's no way to bring every element of your personality into the workplace.
00:11:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, because i am ah my all my jobs were in human resources, I do know that there are employees who bring all of their selves to work.
00:11:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They cuss, they might pilfer,
00:11:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
they are rude and they get fired.
00:11:54
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But some, for some reason, and it's one of the reasons we do backgrounds yet, but for some reason in the early eighties, this time in jail, these assaults of his wives, domestic violence, ah for some reason, it didn't come as a glaring bar to becoming a school administrator like,
00:12:12
Caroline
yeah
00:12:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, they didn't do ah the but proper background check when he was hired and they didn't do any background check when he was promoted to ah ah having a lot of control.
00:12:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:35
Caroline
Well, because wouldn't your, I recognize that getting arrested in your personal life is not necessarily going to equate to your employer being notified of an arrest in your personal life.
00:12:50
Caroline
However, there's got to be some notification issues here too. Was he not required to notify superiors? Like if it happened when he was employed, right? Like let's say he's in his school administrator job. He's, you know, arrested for this domestic violence, spends his time in jail, and then goes, what, back to work on Monday and just doesn't say anything?
00:13:08
Caroline
Like, isn't there?
00:13:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Probably. I mean, you know, i think he only spent a very short period of time, like a day or two, and it was a misdemeanor charge because they did not, back in the early 80s, I don't think that the awareness of
00:13:15
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:19
Caroline
Oh.
00:13:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
domestic violence as a blight on society that we see it now.
00:13:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:32
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so these charges were misdemeanors and they may not have showed up in his in his record. And so maybe that is the reason.
00:13:41
Caroline
OK. Yeah.
00:13:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Today, I think most domestic violence actions that are prosecuted and where you're found guilty and you're spent any time in jail would be a felony.
00:13:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It might be a low-grade felony, but I know on our application for where I used to work, it would say, have you ever been convicted of a felon nate felony?
00:14:06
Caroline
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
have you ever been have you and so maybe that's what's going on. But he's definitely hiding many, many aspects of
00:14:12
Caroline
Okay.
00:14:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
of his personality when he puts on these affects of being Pied Piper, a terrific husband, a cool guy who is heading up a school.
00:14:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:14:24
Caroline
Right.
00:14:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But that's the way that it was. His master's was in education and administration. And Vincent definitely, if you will look at his steps that he took become you know, middle class, well-respected.
00:14:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah He wanted to be at the tippy top of whatever he was doing. And he was at the tippy top of his school employer. A wife beater playing a role of model citizen, a role model, a good man.
00:15:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and he did know how to act like a good person. I believe that his family of origin, good people,
00:15:14
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:15:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I believe that all of the people that we're going to be talking about in this podcast, good people.
00:15:21
Caroline
right
00:15:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He knew how to mimic what good people do.
00:15:28
Caroline
yeah
00:15:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was on his way to being that dream guy when he met sweet, quiet Joni Harper from a modest but very respected family in Bakersfield.
00:15:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now we're going to talk about her more in a minute. Just suffice it to say that the picture I have of Vincent is that of a charming person who could cut corners on studying because he was very bright and he had this charm and he knew how to work it.
00:16:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And as one of 10 children, and again, I'm sure a good family, but to walk around in that family with never wants... asking for anything, not causing any trouble, not spouting off his opinions.
00:16:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That is worth noting to me.
00:16:24
Caroline
yeah
00:16:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that to me is a suggestion that he was quote unquote perfect as a child.
00:16:33
Caroline
yeah
00:16:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And we all know that a healthy child is a handful
00:16:42
Caroline
It's simply imperfect.
00:16:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
children are Children are designed by nature or whatever your belief system is, but I think they're they come with an extremely large sense of entitlement and narcissism because that's what they need.
00:16:45
Caroline
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. He... Yeah.
00:17:01
Caroline
It's part of the survival.
00:17:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what they need in order to survive.
00:17:02
Caroline
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and if you think about it, he's one of 10. That means he had nine prototypes, trial and errors. He had nine different versions of what's going to fly, what's not going to fly to look at, to research, to gather data from, and then go about.
00:17:21
Caroline
I mean, you know, ah know that I was right.
00:17:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was in a pi he was in a petri dish for how to be a wolf in sheep clothing if that was his choice.
00:17:31
Caroline
if If that's what you're looking for. That's what I mean is that, you know, I knew that if my brothers were getting in trouble for something, okay, I'm going to do that differently.
00:17:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah
00:17:39
Caroline
If that's something I'm going to choose to do.
00:17:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that when you're in a family, you are learning how to avoid getting detected, how to devoid avoid getting caught.
00:17:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that would be me and you.
00:17:59
Caroline
Yes.
00:18:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, some people in a family, all they want to do is make their family proud.
00:18:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Some people in a family, all they want to do is be godly and to follow the tenets of their religion. for their parents' sake and then later for their own sake.
00:18:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:19
Caroline
Yeah, that's true.
00:18:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with carving out a little way to ah make childhood easy, but I don't think it was like that. I think that he already, ah you know, has decided that he's going to play a role.
00:18:39
Caroline
Yeah, like I can hide the real, the the dirty tactics so long as I beef up my external projection of goodness.
00:18:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
According to his mother, he never got any trouble. As a child and a teenager, was he really selfless or was he practicing how to hide and keep to himself?
00:19:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because even when he was a teenager, says the mother, was thinking, okay, now know it's a masquerade.
00:19:09
Caroline
Now we know it's... Yeah.
00:19:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was very guarded. He was very controlling. I say these things because I know what he's going to be doing, what he's going to do to his wife and his family.
00:19:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I am, ah i have preconceived notions about Vincent, which he has no problem fulfilling.
00:19:29
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:19:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And we're going to get to that. He knows how to elude detection from his mother, perhaps indefinitely ah also from the police.
00:19:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He did get into some trouble, but the police just found him to be so charming. He never counted on there are going to be some people that are going to get off all up in his real self.
00:19:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And these would be some of the top tier detectives that worked this mass murder that he's going to pull off.
00:19:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The community of Bakersfield really respected Vincent, Joni and Joni's mom. And I want to talk about that. Vincent and Joni worked at the same school. Joni was a counselor and Vincent the vice principal.
00:20:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Joni being a counselor but counselor, that tells me that she's a sensitive person.
00:20:26
Caroline
Super smart.
00:20:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's a very smart person and she's an empathetic person.
00:20:28
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she has fallen in love with this person that she knows calling himself Vincent, but actually being, you know,
00:20:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Jack the Ripper in her life. He's the vice principal, so he glows. People knew him for walking his students home, those who ah needed help. They don't didn it didn't have a bus running where they lived or things like that, and he would protect them.
00:21:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was in the news for that. He became sort of famous. He's a big fish in this little pond. And people in the community got together and they decided to buy him and Joni new bicycles so that he could cover more territory protecting the kids.
00:21:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then when he wasn't protecting the kids, he and Joni could go on bike rides. So they've they've been they've been adopted by this community, basically, because of their good works.
00:21:34
Caroline
Yeah, I mean, that does sound idyllic.
00:21:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, absolutely.
00:21:37
Caroline
It sounds nice.
00:21:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then people felt so good about how good they felt and how good it felt to come together as a community to do this. It's the same daners donors excuse me ah bought some bikes for some of the kids at the school who didn't have bikes.
00:21:56
Caroline
all
00:21:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, he was kind of at the heart of this wave of, we love this guy. We love this school. We love these kids. We love his wife.
00:22:05
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We love everything about this story. And we're going to be a part of it by doing this joy thing.
00:22:12
Caroline
Yeah. That is nice.
00:22:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:22:14
Caroline
I mean, that's nice.
00:22:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:22:15
Caroline
That is kind of a product of actually being, you know, a pillar in your community and really, truly being charming. Like a lot of times you can bring about positive momentum.
00:22:27
Caroline
You know.
00:22:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, in an interview, Joni told the news, ah how do you feel about all of this? She just says, well, I just feel overwhelmed.
00:22:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was not a showy person.
00:22:42
Caroline
yeah
00:22:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was a genuine person wanting to help people, got the education to be a school counselor. And she's working in this school with this man that's got all this charm.
00:22:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think that all of this is why she had fallen in love with Vincent.
00:23:01
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She had never walked alongside a hero like that.
00:23:07
Caroline
yeah
00:23:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, you know, she is as purely innocent as the children are. She's a genuine human being living with a snake in disguise.
00:23:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So let's talk about Joni Harper.
00:23:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Joni Harper was one of five children. They were all raised by a very strong woman named Ernestine Harper. Now, Ernestine was a very well-known civil rights advocate and community activist in Bakersfield.
00:23:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I always wanted to be a community activist, but I just, ah but I don't have the i don't have the part the bits, you know, I don't know how to do that.
00:23:48
Caroline
I know me too. I'm too introverted. Yeah. Me neither.
00:23:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All I knew is I just go from zero meaning acceptance to rage, if I when i get into an activism role.
00:24:00
Caroline
Yes. Yes. It's almost like a light switch, maybe like a dimmer, but mostly switch.
00:24:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, so it says I have to stay away from things like, you know, politics.
00:24:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I have to stay away from things like Vincent Brothers.
00:24:17
Caroline
Right.
00:24:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The only reason that I'm able to do with the podcast with my daughter and my son is that all of these people have been caught.
00:24:28
Caroline
Yes, they've got the comeuppance that is due.
00:24:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I come in after um swooping in after the work is done and they're in jail and I'm just, you know, thumbing my nose at them and trying to figure out why did you do that?
00:24:36
Caroline
hey yeah
00:24:44
Caroline
yeah
00:24:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, back to Joni.
Vincent's Relationships and Marital Challenges
00:24:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Ernestine is her mother, very well-known civil rights activist and a community activist. Now, she was very well-respected. I mean, she was she was the real male deal.
00:25:01
Caroline
Well, yeah, that's i I get that when I read about her too.
00:25:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:05
Caroline
Like, I want to know you.
00:25:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. she She was really respected and held up in her community, as well as law enforcement. Now, you know, law enforcement does not always appreciate community activism.
00:25:20
Caroline
right.
00:25:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Even though, get this, she specialized in helping defendants who she believed to be innocent.
00:25:29
Caroline
Yep. Very noble.
00:25:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And yet law enforcement still respected her.
00:25:33
Caroline
Because that's noble. They know it too. It's it's deep down. It's ah like an honor thing at the end of the day.
00:25:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She would be with, I mean go to court with, any defendant and go through the trial with that defendant if she thought that they were innocent.
00:25:53
Caroline
Yep.
00:25:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And some were innocent.
00:25:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She also was known for activism to rid the neighborhood of gangs and drugs. And for that reason, she had to keep her house very secure.
00:26:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, very secure. huge fence all around it. Nobody else in that neighborhood had the fortress that she had. She had in her front area absolutely no shrubs, no trees, no tall flowers, nothing.
00:26:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No big rocks. To heck with that, you are not going to come over my fence. And if you come over my fence, you're not goingnna be able to hide.
00:26:44
Caroline
Yeah, I read that her family and friends... um I imagine lovingly, but that they all called her paranoid that they made fun of her in a way, right? Like it's the familial way in which you would do that.
00:26:58
Caroline
And she had gone out and purchased a antique revolver, which I thought was a little funny because an antique revolver, i mean, you're, it's almost like you're on the fence. Like you don't really want the firearm, but you know, you need to have it. So why not get something cute and fun?
00:27:14
Caroline
Like it just struck me as odd that that was her choice because, you know,
00:27:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe she just wanted it for for pointing at people.
00:27:20
Caroline
Something like that. That's kind of the sense I got because that once I read that her family called her parent, I thought, okay, well, then she's all in. And she may have very good reason to be because activism can be exceptionally deadly.
00:27:33
Caroline
I mean, it really can depending on what you're going for. mean, gangs, yeah, depending on the gang, they might actually put you on a list somewhere, right? So I don't put it past her to be Fort Knox.
00:27:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, absolutely. Think about all the noted news reporters that have been murdered over the years.
00:27:48
Caroline
That's what I'm saying. and or Anybody, really, if you dig deep enough, you're going to find these stories. um But don't let anyone know that you found them because I don't know what happens after that.
00:27:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:27:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right. Yeah. So this formidable woman brought up her daughter ah very well. And Joni, when she was a child and a teenager, she was a star athlete in her high school,
00:28:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
in her college, and her sport was basketball. She was into everything athleticism in general, but she was a star on the basketball court, and she was in high school and in college, and I wonder if she got a scholarship for ah to go to college and play.
00:28:33
Caroline
Yeah. um
00:28:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um She met Vincent Brothers at the school where they both met, as I've already said, and she just fell head and over heels in love with him. So here's this disciplined woman, this low, keep a low profile.
00:28:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She wasn't intentionally keeping a low profile. This was her actual personality.
00:28:53
Caroline
yeah
00:28:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's very um thoughtful person, empathetic person, very smart lady, had a formidable mother, well-known in the community.
00:29:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she fell. She fell genuinely in love with Vincent Brothers. And mean, what can we say?
00:29:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was what she looked up to. She didn't know, and she would have no way of knowing what he was and what he was capable of behind closed doors.
00:29:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:29
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:29:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now they were in love for a long time, they dated. They had two children together before they decided to get married. And when they got married,
00:29:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it it did not last because of chronic infidelity of Vincent. Now, this was the same issue that caused the first two marriages.
00:30:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Perhaps she didn't know that. She didn't know that the first two marriages he had, she may not have even known he'd been married two times.
00:30:07
Caroline
Well, that's what I'm thinking is that he may just not even talk about it.
00:30:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, he would literally take off for days at a time and not tell Joni or anyone where he was going. What the hell?
00:30:22
Caroline
Well, that's weird because that's what I'm saying. Like, how does his employer not see any aspects of his real deal life, including that one? mean, that's weird.
00:30:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, I'm sure it went off on he went off on the weekend or on his days off or something like that. But if I was married to someone and we were, it's not just the marriage, if we were partners in parenting.
00:30:46
Caroline
That's that piece because that's what keeps you busy.
00:30:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Partners in parenting, partners in designing our future, dreaming about our future, talking about our future, all of the above.
00:30:57
Caroline
Right.
00:30:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um You know, he He just had this persona until he didn't have it anymore. And he had to get in his car and drive away to do that.
00:31:10
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she knew that he had been, um he had cheated on her. And that must've been so devastating when she realized he's not going away just to see his old buddies back in wherever.
00:31:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
his hang out with his Marine buddies, hang out with old friends from college. No, he was a womanizer.
00:31:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you know, how much disrespect does a person have to have for their affair person that they come to the person they're having the affair with married?
00:31:57
Caroline
Yeah, right.
00:31:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe he was faking it with them and claiming he wasn't married.
00:32:00
Caroline
Well, that's the thing. um He strikes me as one of these people who we know there were a lot of in the 50s and 60s who just went off and had a whole other wife and children.
00:32:11
Caroline
Literally. just the I agree.
00:32:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's still people doing that.
00:32:14
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, it's the kookiest thing to me, but people do that. They live in two entire lives, you know partnered up family lives that are totally separate.
00:32:26
Caroline
It's weird. So,
00:32:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's very weird. Now my dog is barking. Now both my dogs are barking. I'm so sorry. Anyway, it's probably a package delivered to someone. So even though ah the marriage didn't last, they did have a child together in 1999.
00:32:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
His name is Marcus. But that, of course, didn't really change anything. You know, he's going to keep on being who he is behind closed doors. Then they had another child.
00:32:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So we know that even though she loved him, she was leaving him and divorced him, but they had another child. So that tells me that they were still having a physical relationship or romantic relationship.
00:33:12
Caroline
and
00:33:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe her boundary was I'm not going to be married to a man that cheats on me.
00:33:18
Caroline
Right.
00:33:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I can be in love with you and you can be in love with me and we can have a family, but I am not going to be in a marriage with somebody who cheats on me.
00:33:24
Caroline
Right.
00:33:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe that was her boundary.
00:33:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, they had another child, a daughter named Lindsay, but nothing changed again. You know, nothing changed with this man.
00:33:35
Caroline
Yeah, because he is who he is, really.
00:33:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She just, Joni just tired of it all and finally decided, you know what, let's get a divorce. And it was the year 2000.
00:33:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, um you know, they've had this baby, Marcus, and they've had another baby, Lindsay. And then she just is thinking, you know, why am i doing this?
00:33:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Why? and she probably decided I have to get away from this person physically or we're going to keep having kids.
00:34:02
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:34:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But Caroline, that didn't last because she loved him.
00:34:09
Caroline
Yeah.
00:34:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, love is just a, it's a very potent tonic.
00:34:15
Caroline
Yes. A cuckoo maker, for sure.
00:34:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It is. And I mean, love also makes the world go wrong. Don't get me wrong.
00:34:23
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yess there i have I love my family and I love my best friends. ah and
00:34:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But Joni loved him and he kept telling her he loved her too. I'll get better. he even went to a church person like a counselor type person in the church, you know, pastor, or maybe the, I don't know, he went, you know, trying to get through this, why do I, why am I not faithful to my wife?
00:34:47
Caroline
Like a pastor or whatever. Yeah.
00:34:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:35:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And maybe she put that down as a gauntlet for him. You're going have to go through some church counseling and you're going to have to ah redeem yourself.
00:35:04
Caroline
Right.
00:35:10
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um And once he did that, and he did do that, ah They got married again. And this was in 2003.
00:35:21
Caroline
not I don't think that's uncommon. i just think people don't talk about it. Because, I mean, my grandparents did the same thing. They got divorced and remarried, I think, twice.
00:35:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, they did. Yes, they did. Not my, well, not my parents, but Ted's parents did do that.
00:35:33
Caroline
Not your parents, but, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, um okay, back to Joni.
00:35:42
Caroline
Well, I just want to put it perspective because people are probably like, that's weird. don't know that it is.
00:35:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, it's not weird. it's it's It's the devil that you know versus the the the new devil that you might take home.
00:35:51
Caroline
Totally.
00:35:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know is Yeah, I mean, and hope, there's no law against being optimistic.
00:36:00
Caroline
That's right. That perfectly said. Hmm.
00:36:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So when she married him in 2003, she was carrying their next baby. So, but you know, was she... maybe yielding to another marriage because of the baby or was she wanting to get married and she just happened to be pregnant? I don't know.
00:36:22
Caroline
right
00:36:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But here comes the next baby by Vincent. And um so in 2003, when they married, um this baby hadn't even been born yet.
00:36:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She would later give birth, obviously, to this third little baby, Marshall. Now, Marshall was born four weeks after they had a secret wedding in Las Vegas.
00:36:48
Caroline
Secret or just swift?
00:36:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what is it? what it well let's just I don't understand Las Vegas and why people think let's go marry in Las Vegas. Is it because they think so it will work?
00:37:03
Caroline
No, no, I think it's like, let's go ride the Ferris wheel.
00:37:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
is
00:37:06
Caroline
I mean, I think it's a little bit like that.
00:37:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I mean, okay.
00:37:12
Caroline
I think it's part of the kitschy Vegas fun. And I think when people do that, there's not necessarily the sense that that's going to be the definitive. Like it, it could be, i don't know. There's a, there are so many ways to get married anymore.
00:37:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, you're right.
00:37:30
Caroline
And there are a million one reasons to get married. So I think Vegas would be fun.
00:37:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's almost...
00:37:34
Caroline
Like I would do a Vegas wedding just to be like, oh, fun. But it wouldn't be my primary wedding.
00:37:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, it does sort of, to me, sound... Okay, I'm just going to speak for myself. Suppose I met someone. um Well, I have to back up.
00:37:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Suppose I left my family long enough... and my friends and my home and my dogs long enough to go meet somebody somewhere in the actual world.
00:38:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because I'm 70, almost 70, and um I've been a widow. Now, we were just talking. It's been 17 years since Ted passed away.
00:38:16
Caroline
yeah
00:38:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i don't feel any kind of urge to go get married.
00:38:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But if I met somebody love i love them meaning I would want to live with them, which I don't think there is anybody else that lives on this planet that I would want to live with, but because I've lived alone for so long.
00:38:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But my point is, i can put it in a tongue-in-cheek, let's get married in Vegas, let's go do that. Like that would be a vacation, a fantasy wedding.
00:38:52
Caroline
Right. like ah Like a role play or an avatar type, almost like an AI experience. You know, you're just kind of doing it for fun because it builds off some other real thing.
00:38:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:39:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Right.
00:39:05
Caroline
Like we really love each other and we're already married or we really love each other and we're going to get married.
00:39:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or where in my case, now that I've had my little fantasy
00:39:11
Caroline
like
00:39:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um or nightmare, whatever it may be, um i think it would be, let's go get married in v Vegas and have a good time because you are not moving into my house and I am not moving into yours.
00:39:27
Caroline
Ah, okay. Yeah.
00:39:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it would be like, ah yeah, I'll marry you, you know, but I, you know I don't know how I got down that rabbit hole, but I just think it's weird.
00:39:29
Caroline
Let's get this out of your system.
00:39:33
Caroline
Yeah.
00:39:37
Caroline
Yeah.
00:39:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Why do people go to Vegas to get married?
00:39:41
Caroline
yeah
00:39:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, especially Joni, she's very church centric. So is her mother.
00:39:48
Caroline
Yeah, that is a good point, actually. Like, do so what was the arrangement there? Because perhaps there was more of an arrangement than and and then a marriage here, if we're going the second time, right?
00:40:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know, but they went they went on this fantasy wedding thing.
00:40:00
Caroline
So what was it?
00:40:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then they came back to Bakersfield and they're living in her mother's house with this new baby. Like, how do you go to Vegas four weeks before you have a baby?
00:40:18
Caroline
I know, the world's kooky.
00:40:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But I guess you get on a plane anyway.
00:40:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:40:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. And, but, you know, listen, when they got home and this baby was born and they're living in their mother's house, Joanie knew immediately that it had been a mistake to marry him again.
00:40:32
Caroline
Okay. Yeah, that's a bummer.
00:40:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She knew immediately. Her mother knew it too because Ernestine was the homeowner living right there. Joanie and her family lived in her home. Ernestine would speak up to Vincent, well, no kidding.
00:40:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
she Think about how she lives her life as an activist, as a community activist.
00:40:50
Caroline
I mean, I was going to say, don't mess with me. Duh.
00:40:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
as a justice out activist. Ernestine spoke up to Vincent when he was controlling and acting like a king in her house. So when Marshall was born, it wasn't long before Joanie told Vincent she was going to end the marriage and that she and Ernestine agreed that he needed to move out of her house.
00:41:16
Caroline
the
00:41:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's going to get a divorce. And so he did move out. He got an apartment. He was kind of in limbo, living in this apartment, And then one day, you know, ah when the baby was about 16 weeks old, so that four months, he's been alive four months.
00:41:35
Caroline
yeah
00:41:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah He decided, Vincent did, that I'm going to go see my brother in Ohio. He took a vacation.
00:41:48
Caroline
Well, actually, he was probably already off because, you know, teachers. Great gig, folks.
00:41:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:41:54
Caroline
At least on the West Coast, most of the districts, yeah, you get prorated pay, so you often will get paid through your summer, but you're not working.
00:41:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right.
00:42:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I get it. Okay. I forgot about that.
00:42:06
Caroline
Yeah, it's good gig.
00:42:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. So ah he he got on a plane. Vincent Brothers got on a plane to Columbus, Ohio. But i really i really want to focus in on the murder because that's what's coming next.
00:42:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So we're going to talk about the murder.
Vincent's Alibi and Investigation
00:42:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it does start with Vincent Brothers getting on a plane and going to Columbus, Ohio for a long, I'm going to put this in quotes, a long 4th of July holiday weekend in 2003.
00:42:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's going to go like on a Thursday and come back on on Tuesday kind of thing.
00:42:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All right. So he was staying with one of his brothers. And um in Columbus, Ohio. And he rented a car so he could, you know, he wants to sightsee, he told his brother.
00:43:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I want to go look at places. You know, I'm going to get into a divorce. Maybe I'll move out here with you. Now, I'm making this up, but that's how I envision it.
00:43:08
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because he got this car.
00:43:09
Caroline
Makes sense.
00:43:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he had to explain to his brother why i came to visit you, but I'm going to be taking off in this car and you're not going to actually see me much.
00:43:22
Caroline
Yeah, that's weird.
00:43:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because that's what he did. He rented a car and he told his brother, i've decided to do some sightseeing. But really what he did, Caroline, was he drove that rental car approximately 2,000 miles one way to Bakersfield to kill his family. And after that, he returned to Columbus.
00:43:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he's in Bakersfield with this rental car. He kills his family after they returned home from church on July 6, 2003. And then he drove back to Ohio.
00:44:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then he and his brother, hey, let's go see mom. And mom lives in North Carolina. So he was on another trip with his brother as a witness, seeing the mom, because she was in North Carolina, as I said.
00:44:15
Caroline
Right.
00:44:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he has produced a lot of evidence that he flew to Ohio, he was with his brother, then they went to see his mother in North Carolina, and he's fully accounted for.
00:44:40
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
When he was notified that his mother-in-law, this Ernestine, his wife, this is Joni,
00:44:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Marcus, little four-year-old boy. Lindsay, two-year-old. Marshall, four months old.
00:45:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They'd all been murdered in the home. Then he came home directly and worked with the police. Now, detectives dismissed him as a like i as a oh possible suspect.
00:45:22
Caroline
of that alibi.
00:45:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because of the alibi, even though he was the husband.
00:45:23
Caroline
It's a good alibi.
00:45:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they they looked into him and, you know, they found that he even used his credit cards in a couple of stores, you know, over that period of time, right there in Columbus, Ohio.
00:45:27
Caroline
course.
00:45:36
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
at During the time, they're on the days, during the time, all the time. You know, he had his butt covered. Detectives spent a year running down other leads.
00:45:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Most were focused on Ernestine. Why? Because it was her home.
00:45:53
Caroline
yeah
00:45:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She was known to work with gang members, drug dealers, and many community members who run afoul of the law. She was a formidable woman who had enemies, but nothing panned out.
00:46:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They looked at all the you know usual suspects because there were children involved and murdered.
00:46:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They thought, well, let's go let's go check child molesters. Let's go check all the kids and their families at school, is everything okay there?
00:46:24
Caroline
Yeah. Well, and I'm always thinking of the cartels because they just scare the bejesus out of me. You know, I mean, it's that when you get into drug and all that kind of stuff, I mean, that's the kind of world you're bumping up against. They do get very scary. Yeah.
00:46:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. I mean, you don't even know. that's That's where you need to be paranoid.
00:46:45
Caroline
I know, right?
00:46:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that That's where you need to be paranoid.
00:46:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If you're hanging out with druggies or they know that you know something or, you know, yeah.
00:46:51
Caroline
Right.
00:46:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But these these detectives, they are really frustrated.
00:47:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they're thinking, you know, Vincent is just, you know, I just can't get over how cinched up his alibi is.
00:47:12
Caroline
Right.
00:47:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's something hinky there.
00:47:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I mean, you know, by now the detectives know that these were his children.
00:47:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
By now, they know that they've maybe gone to talk to the ex-wives.
00:47:26
Caroline
Right.
00:47:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They know that he spent some time in jail. Even if it was a misdemeanor, they're going to know it.
00:47:34
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um So they kept coming back to him. And of course, their investigation was now taking ah year, you know two years.
00:47:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So there was something about him, Vincent Brothers. The detectives couldn't name it, but they were both feeling it. He had this ironclad alibi, right?
00:47:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Very suspicious. He was in Ohio, lots of witnesses. Then california Northern california correct carro North Carolina, lots of witnesses. Jeez, my sister's going to kill me. She lives in North Carolina and I'm having a trouble saying that word.
00:48:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But the lead detective started looking for holes in his story. Now they're they're They're working, I can just see them working late into the night because they've got new cases.
00:48:23
Caroline
Right.
00:48:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, they're busy. um They had Vincent's story of his trip to see family and they had talked with all the family members that were involved during that trip.
00:48:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then they went over their statements and they realized that Vincent had a rental car. And they had not investigated the use of that car.
00:48:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they did their homework. They found out. And in fact, they went to where he was in Ohio and talked to the rental car people.
00:49:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They found out that that rental car, when Vincent turned it back in, and had 5,000 miles Yes, yes.
00:49:07
Caroline
So he had put 5,000 miles on it. This is by far my my favorite part of detective work right here is where you just chase down the most innocuous lead and it's you're smoking good.
00:49:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yes yes
00:49:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
while he was While it was being rented to Vincent Brothers, 5,000 miles were put on that car.
00:49:25
Caroline
It's a lot of sightseeing.
00:49:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, this was enough mileage for a round-trip ticket from Ohio to Bakersfield and back again.
00:49:32
Caroline
Hmm. Hmm.
00:49:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Vincent did do some sightseeing, they found out. Was he regularly
00:49:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
being seen by his brother? Or was he off doing something else? Was he really traveling to Bakersfield to exterminate his family?
00:49:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They thought he was. They thought he did it, but they couldn't prove it. Too much time had passed to start looking for digital evidence. It wasn't the plethora that it is today.
00:50:04
Caroline
Right.
00:50:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They didn't keep records.
00:50:07
Caroline
Well, and that rental car could have been rented ah to and I mean, I don't know the chain of custody for that piece of evidence because it certainly is a very key piece of evidence now. But how much can you glean besides?
00:50:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, yeah, they, I mean, they, they had that as a record that was taken contemporaneous with him turning it in.
00:50:27
Caroline
That's true. So don't even, yeah, that's true.
00:50:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and he probably had to pay additional money to go that far with the miles.
00:50:34
Caroline
Yeah. Oh, that's another good point. Yeah. Would have been noted.
00:50:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it's almost like I was there and I can observe him, but actually I know what a pain it is to rent a car, um, to go with your mileage.
00:50:46
Caroline
and To go over your miles.
00:50:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is why when I go on trips, and if I'm going to get a car, I'm going to get the zero mileage limit plan.
00:50:57
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Vincent had used his credit card in Ohio. How's that going to be? You know, how are we going to get around that? His credit card. He used his credit card in Ohio.
00:51:09
Caroline
yeah yeah
00:51:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The day the family was murdered. He wouldn't have been able to murder his family during the time that he was also using his credit card in Ohio.
00:51:20
Caroline
yeah
00:51:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the detectives went back to Ohio and they went to the store where these purchases were made and they started interviewing the store clerks and showed pictures of Vincent and also his brother.
00:51:26
Caroline
yeah
00:51:42
Caroline
yeah.
00:51:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they found out that it was Vincent's brother who had made the purchases using Vincent's credit card.
00:51:49
Caroline
ah
00:51:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they had um found people who could remember it just based on what had been purchased and that kind of thing.
00:52:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they, by showing a big picture of the brother and Vincent, oh no, it's this guy.
00:52:10
Caroline
yeah
00:52:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's this guy. I've never seen this guy.
00:52:12
Caroline
Right. That's diabolical.
00:52:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it may be that Vincent's brother goes in all the time.
00:52:19
Caroline
Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, oh, wow. they didn't So they didn't have surveillance video or anything where they could...
00:52:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, I didn't read anything that indicated that the surveillance anywhere of anybody at any time during this period was really a thing.
00:52:26
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, 2003. Yeah, it wouldn't
00:52:32
Caroline
have really been... three yeah
00:52:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:52:36
Caroline
wouldn't have really been
00:52:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So the only reason that that was not a really good clue is because both Vincent and his brother testified at trial that Vincent helped out his family a lot.
00:52:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And while Vincent was sightseeing, he gave his credit card to his brother to make some purchases for himself and his family. So they couldn't really, you know, it was just too, it was too dependent on these eyewitness testimonies that were fairly old now, a couple of years has passed.
00:53:02
Caroline
It was c sort too circumstantial. Yeah.
00:53:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And also because Vincent and his brother both said that he was using that credit card every day that he was there. So that that was not a big clue.
00:53:19
Caroline
Right.
00:53:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it was what it was for the detectives was one more nail in the coffin of their solid belief that we need to take this to trial if the prosecutor will let us.
00:53:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:53:35
Caroline
yeah yeah
00:53:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So now they had spent two years and they believe that Vincent did it. They were certain of it, but they had no direct evidence. They mapped out the order of the killings.
00:53:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know who was killed first, who was killed second, third, fourth. And they can tell that by forensics and all of the testing and photography and so forth that was done at the time of the murder.
00:53:56
Caroline
yeah yeah
00:54:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i mean, you don't get a family annihilation every day in Bakersfield.
00:54:08
Caroline
No. And most crime scenes, I think that's the science.
00:54:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and
00:54:11
Caroline
I know jurisdictionally you have different resources, but that's the science. No matter what you know and don't know, you are piecing together a vignette of what happened. How did it go down?
00:54:22
Caroline
Every last detail. Because in within all that is where your clues are.
00:54:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:54:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that they determined that what had happened was the person somehow got in the house. And it had to know be somebody who knew the house very, very well.
00:54:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because first Joni was murdered. Then the mother-in-law, Ernestine, was murdered, who was in a completely different wing of the house in the master suite.
00:54:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Only the gunfire woke her up. So in other words, nobody else woke up with the gunfire. The kids are kids. They're going to sleep.
00:55:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And they were all sleeping near their mother because she's living in the guest room and they've got the crib in there and they've got the baby, you know, for the baby and they've got, yeah.
00:55:08
Caroline
And
00:55:13
Caroline
they're so little. yeah
00:55:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So ah she woke up when she heard the first gunshot and she made her way to the doorway of her bedroom and she was shot right there in the hall.
00:55:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But the question was, this happened within just seconds of Joni's murder.
00:55:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
How did the killer know where to find her?
00:55:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:55:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Because this house was very sort of remodel upon remodel upon remodel upon remodel and Her the bedroom had been designed at some point to be very hard to find in the house.
00:56:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You have to go right back to the front door to get into a different hall to go down to her room.
00:56:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But there's a there's a way that only that family would know to go to her room.
00:56:09
Caroline
oh
00:56:13
Caroline
yeah yep.
00:56:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Only the killer would have to know that secret shortcut. And that had to be Vincent. But again, they're just speculating. Yeah.
00:56:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, what about that gun that she had?
00:56:30
Caroline
Well, so ah in some of the stuff that I saw, the investigators were able to see that she was able to get a shot or, you know, grab that gun and make an attempt to make a shot down the hall or down whatever at this person.
00:56:43
Caroline
But it misfired. You know, it didn' it malfunctioned. And she couldn't get that off. And that haunts me because... I just, I mean, Ernestine, man, you were right there and ready.
00:56:56
Caroline
But that gun misfired. I just feel like it's this moment, you know, where everything could have been so different. But that's, I mean, I just feel bad.
00:57:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:05
Caroline
So she was a woman who was ready. She was ready and she was ready. I mean, you know.
00:57:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I wish that Joni had a restraining order. That would have been a tale that he is deserving of a restraining order.
00:57:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:16
Caroline
Right.
00:57:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And perhaps she had become aware of his previous violence against his domestic partners.
00:57:27
Caroline
I think she had considered one. That was another blurb I had ah gleaned from investigators. So I think they really did did deep in the history here, probably, than they thought they needed to and started seeing these little things. But what shocks me about this story is how all of those elma elements are present, but they're not on the surface. Not one of them is on the surface in a way you would be able to catch it.
00:57:53
Caroline
So it's very diabolical and scary.
00:57:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right.
00:57:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they knew that after killing Ernestine, the killing continued with the children. So the killer had to go back to that other bedroom that would be hard to find unless you knew the secret passage.
00:58:07
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:58:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the children were all sleeping in there with their mother. the the Marcus and his sister were in the bed with their mom. And the baby was in the crib.
00:58:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Marcus was the last one murdered. And he was so fearful that he had bitten into his knuckles right down to the bone. So that was one of the elements that they knew there was a break after Joni's murder before going and killing thee the other person that could hurt him or stop him.
00:58:50
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:58:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So you're picking off both adults.
00:58:55
Caroline
Yep.
00:58:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it was pre-planned to do that, they believed. And I believe it too. And that gave this terrified child who just watched his mother ah wakes up to another gunshot and sees that his mother is bleeding and won't answer him.
00:59:06
Caroline
Right.
00:59:13
Caroline
Will and his siblings.
00:59:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But he got under the covers and he had bitten his knuckles down to the bone. This fact haunted the detectives profoundly, and this is something that I certainly will always remember.
00:59:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they these detectives, Caroline, they are spending day and night trying to find the needle in a haystack, and they came up with a novel experiment, but would it work? Seeing Vincent living his life free of marriage, free of a free of alimony, yeah all of his kids are dead, except for the one he had with one of his original wives,
00:59:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Free of child support, free of that, you know, pesky Ernestine always telling me that I'm not telling the truth.
01:00:00
Caroline
Right. I bet.
01:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They knew that Vincent, they knew that Vincent knew his wife was planning to divorce him. That's why he got kicked out of Ernestine's house. All of this was, you know, the detectives are, they're haunted by it. They're swirling around in their head.
01:00:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
How can we catch him? They realized that they had never taken a look at the rental car.
01:00:18
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So back they went again to Ohio.
01:00:26
Caroline
o
01:00:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Would it yield anything? I mean, it's been two years. They got a warrant to bring the car back to Bakersfield. They wondered if the grill on that car would tell any tales.
Entomology Evidence and Conviction of Vincent Brothers
01:00:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they sent the entire grill to a University of California And they turned the grill over to an entomology expert for examination.
01:00:56
Caroline
Ooh, getting nerdy. I like it.
01:01:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Although brothers stated that he flew to Columbus to visit his brother and had not traveled to California from Ohio, expert witnesses from the University of California, Davis, Bohart Museum of Entomology stated that Some of the insects found on the rental car's radiator and air filter were from states west of the Rocky Mountains.
01:01:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is Dr. Lynn Kimsey, who I adore. I don't know her, but, um or maybe it's a him. But anyway, UC Davis professor of entomology and the museum director.
01:01:33
Caroline
Yes.
01:01:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To get to California from the east, This is what she said. The insects we found were consistent with two major routes to get to California from the east.
01:01:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this car had gone from the east to California and back. So to Ohio and California and back.
01:02:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Were any other rental car, renters of that car, traveling those miles?
01:02:13
Caroline
Right.
01:02:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, they were not.
01:02:14
Caroline
Right.
01:02:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Those were normal people traveling maybe 100 miles.
01:02:18
Caroline
right Renting it while they're in Ohio and then turning it back in and leaving.
01:02:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right, right.
01:02:22
Caroline
Yeah. This
01:02:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the court testimony showed that the round trip accounted for 4,500 miles on that rental car. So in other words, he hardly used that rental car at all.
01:02:37
Caroline
Yeah.
01:02:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Except to go on that sightseeing trip, which was really a trip to California to kill.
01:02:39
Caroline
this one
01:02:45
Caroline
Well, how long would that have taken him? I, you know, I'm horrible at geography, but I know that from the bottom of California to the top of the, you know, contiguous United States, it's about, it's about a day if you don't stop.
01:02:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All night.
01:02:59
Caroline
So like how far, how far? Yeah.
01:03:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, he's going to be traveling, you know, over 2000 miles in one way. and you can get 500 miles done in about eight hours if you're poking along and obeying all the traffic laws.
01:03:20
Caroline
So he might've been on an overnight away from his family sightseeing. Is that okay.
01:03:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, he was. Oh, he was. Yeah, they didn't see him for a couple of days. He was sightseeing. He was exploring. Yeah.
01:03:30
Caroline
That is so fricking suspicious. So it's not as, cause it reads so much more like, wow, that's such a great alibi. But I think if you put it into logistical, critical thinking and you walk yourself through the story, you think, well, what the hell?
01:03:44
Caroline
That doesn't make any sense. Like how long was he gone?
01:03:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, it took but it took him a year to get, he had a pretty good alibi.
01:03:46
Caroline
What,
01:03:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, that is a pretty good alibi.
01:03:51
Caroline
Yeah.
01:03:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it took detectives a year to blow through every other possible contingency.
01:03:58
Caroline
Which they have to. Yeah.
01:04:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then they started, but because of Ernestine, especially.
01:04:03
Caroline
Yes. Yes.
01:04:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, um you know, she she you could look at her house and tell that she had enemies.
01:04:10
Caroline
They knew there was a culprit they could find. So they kept pushing. Well, good for them.
01:04:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:15
Caroline
ah do like those detectives.
01:04:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, yeah, it wasn't in, like he didn't, he he probably, they think the timeline was probably, he left on Tuesday to go. So then you've got um Wednesday maybe and most of Thursday.
01:04:30
Caroline
And then he's back.
01:04:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then he's back with his brother on Friday and he's going come home.
01:04:32
Caroline
Yeah. sort Yeah.
01:04:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, that kind of thing.
01:04:36
Caroline
Okay.
01:04:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he was with his brother, with his brothers in quotes, you know.
01:04:41
Caroline
Yeah.
01:04:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He went to Ohio where his brother was.
01:04:42
Caroline
And the brothers are kind of like, yeah.
01:04:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, he plotted in schemes this murder of his children, four-month-old baby.
01:04:48
Caroline
ah
01:04:51
Caroline
That, I mean, that's crazy.
01:04:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, he tells me he's not he's not pumping red, warm blood.
01:05:00
Caroline
No.
01:05:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is a snake.
01:05:02
Caroline
Yes.
01:05:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
care who he bites. He doesn't care who he kills.
01:05:06
Caroline
That's evil.
01:05:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This is just what he needs to do to get what he needs that he wants, which is a life without financial obligations related to the second marriage yeah of Joni with three children.
01:05:15
Caroline
Yeah.
01:05:18
Caroline
Yeah.
01:05:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, the timeline tells the story of Vincent Brothers, both metaphorically and actually when he murdered to become a free man. And the reason I say that is metaphorically it is who he is, meaning he does not want to be seen being himself.
01:05:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He does not want to be seen being himself.
01:05:43
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At trial, his former wives and his girlfriends all told the story of a controlling and violent man behind closed doors. One woman from the school where he worked claimed that he had, this is the school where he and Joni worked.
01:06:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
One of the women there at trial came forward and said that he sexually harassed her and she and even to touching her as the vice principal.
01:06:11
Caroline
yeah
01:06:14
Caroline
Not good.
01:06:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And she complained to the school. Authorities at the school brought Vincent into their offices and told him, quit it. You can't do that.
01:06:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
well was That's how that happened to him.
01:06:29
Caroline
Oy.
01:06:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The woman testified that she then went to local police.
01:06:33
Caroline
Good for her.
01:06:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She went to file report because he had grabbed her sexually, and the police told her, now, listen, you don't want to do that. That's going to be hard to get people to believe that Vincent Brothers did anything to you.
01:06:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Who are you to say that he did that to you? He's golden our community.
01:06:55
Caroline
oh That's so frustrating because it's real. And it's really frustrating that they can't offer her an alternative because that's what they, i get what they're doing.
01:07:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep.
01:07:06
Caroline
They are offering her a favor by saying you will drown and for absolutely no reason. And they're probably right, but give her something else, man. Give her the opportunity to put it on paper so that the next time the lady comes in and you say nothing's going to happen, it'll start to stack up so that someday eventually something will happen because there's enough evidence.
01:07:25
Caroline
but But anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now.
01:07:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
i hope I hope those people, both the people at the school and the people in that police department who told her, you know, don't go up against this is Goliath we're talking about. um I hope after he was found guilty of murder and murdering his entire family, i hope they feel bad or apologize to her.
01:07:46
Caroline
well or learned from it that you should still come up with a way to get it on paper as a means of you know I mean look at the OJ timeline is what I'm saying I didn't know about any of that abuse until well after that trial like you know what i mean so
01:07:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah Oh, yeah, I do know what you mean, that it's a blight on our society, domestic violence.
01:08:05
Caroline
yes yes the hiding
01:08:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um what I see in Vincent with this killing and the way he plotted and schemed it and almost got away with it, had there been lazier detectives,
01:08:20
Caroline
Yeah.
01:08:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um is that ah he's acting exactly the way he did in his family of origins.
01:08:28
Caroline
Yeah.
01:08:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to be charming. And while I'm killing these people, I'm going to also be simultaneously with my brother.
01:08:37
Caroline
Yeah.
01:08:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
One of 10 brothers, or I guess nine brothers.
01:08:42
Caroline
yeah
01:08:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He managed to, brothers and sisters. So he managed to charm his way through life, charm his way through all of his violence. He had a hidden his violent and controlling anger And it would only come out behind closed doors. He skated and he was excused by society.
01:09:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he decided that five people in his family had to die for him to keep up his hiding and his lack of control. So he p plotted and he schemed and it came up with a great way to make himself invisible, just like he did when he was a kid.
01:09:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I love it that bugs got him.
01:09:23
Caroline
no
01:09:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Bugs that don't climb the Rocky Mountain Range do not climb the Rocky Mountain Range.
01:09:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That is science. and i And I call these bugs my angel bugs.
01:09:30
Caroline
That's right.
01:09:36
Caroline
Absolutely. i love this part of it. I mean, whatever it takes.
01:09:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, you can you can wash that rental car every time you lease it out and you, unless you take that grill off, ah you know, unless you raise that hood and
01:09:50
Caroline
That's right.
01:09:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Take everything apart and you are never going to get those bugs and the legacy that they have now of catching this killer.
01:09:56
Caroline
change it all out. That's right.
01:10:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So thank you for the team that found the bugs, who gave their life to a rental car grill in order to catch this monster.
01:10:14
Caroline
Hallelujah. I agree.
01:10:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To me, this is evidence that we're all connected.
01:10:18
Caroline
That's right. And that you can't really hide anything and science is both real and important.
01:10:25
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Vincent Brothers caught hell on the witness stand. He took, of course he did. He's a narcissist. He's going to charm this jury. He had told a lot of different stories. he had lied for his brother.
01:10:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And when he did, he need not he didn't see his brother as a person. He didn't see it any of this, but he was not charged because he was upset and his memory was four years old and he was traumatized by all this. This is his brother.
01:10:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's no direct evidence that he knew his brother was going to kill his entire family. So I want to just make sure that everybody knows his brother ah caught hell, but he's not guilty.
01:11:09
Caroline
He's traumatized, but no jail time.
01:11:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. On May 15, 2007, Vincent Brothers was convicted of first-degree murders of his five family members, Joanie, Ernestine,
01:11:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Marcus, Lindsay, little baby Marshall, just 16 weeks old. I will think about you forever. You kids would all be grown now and you would have been beautiful, loving people.
01:11:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You were murdered by a monster who tricked a lot of people and you did not deserve that. And Caroline, that's all I have to say about Vincent Brothers.
01:11:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He has tried all kinds of appeals. um Nobody is gonna appeal this man's. There was nothing wrong with his trial. There was nothing wrong with the law.
01:12:04
Caroline
Yep.
01:12:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he was sentenced to death.
01:12:09
Caroline
Oh, wow. Really? i didn't think California got into capital punishment.
01:12:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah.
01:12:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, he's in San Quentin.
01:12:15
Caroline
Wow.
01:12:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know if they're gonna bring back their death penalty.
01:12:18
Caroline
Okay.
01:12:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But if they do, he's gonna he's going to die
01:12:23
Caroline
Wow.
01:12:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
by death penalty. And just having the death penalty on you makes you, there are certain things about prison that are not as nice, if I can use that word,
01:12:36
Caroline
Yes.
01:12:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
livable. I don't know if I can use that word either.
01:12:40
Caroline
Yeah.
01:12:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I should just end this episode by saying that this episode was researched, written, and narrated by Bridget and Caroline, produced by Andy. Our research is solely based on public domain documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject.
01:13:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Episodes are aired every other week. If you like us, please subscribe and give us a five-star review. Tell your friends about us in person and by social media. All of these actions help new listeners find us, and we really appreciate our listeners. We really do. Thank you for listening today.
01:13:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We appreciate you, and don't forget, don't forget to live and let live. Bye-bye, Caroline.
01:13:26
Caroline
Bye-bye.