Transcript
bclawson: Hello listeners and welcome. I'm Bridget.
Caroline: And I'm Caroline.
bclawson: You are listening to Hearth, Home, and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Caroline and I research and narrate each story. Andy is our producer.
bclawson: Caroline and I try to figure out what is going on with the family at the center of the case. We know the ripple effect of family murder never ends. We see how a killer in the family is responsible for immeasurable destruction and trauma.
bclawson: Listener discretion is advised. So, Caroline, today we're going to France. Now, I know that that's going make you happy because you know about the language and culture and history of France.
Caroline: Oui, oui.
bclawson: So... um I think it'll be kind of fun. And this is a very unusual case. I didn't pick it because it was in France. I picked it because it is so interesting.
bclawson: And I, you know, I guess I might get into trouble after I die if somebody up there wants to judge me for thinking a family murder is so interesting.
bclawson: But, you know, I didn't have anything to do with the murder. I just I just like to think about what is going on. And I know you do, too.
Caroline: Yep.
bclawson: So the town that we're going to be in was the home of Voltaire.
Caroline: Ooh.
bclawson: it's a It's a little village that is right, you know, just a few miles from Geneva, Switzerland.
Caroline: Oh, so fancy.
bclawson: And, yeah, yeah. And ah the people in the town, you know, many years ago, like 200 years ago, started or incorporated or made their town.
bclawson: um And they changed it to a long French name for a town. ah but they want But they call it Voltaire. The locals call it Voltaire.
Caroline: Oh, très chic.
bclawson: Yes. So our killer today killed his wife, his kids, his parents, after 18 years of pretending to be a doctor when he really wasn't.
bclawson: And he claimed to be working at the World Health Organization, which is in ah in ins Switzerland. It's in Geneva.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
bclawson: So he was like, um you know, that annihilator. What was his last name? Lutz?
Caroline: Oh.
bclawson: um that we did.
Caroline: I can't remember.
bclawson: Anyway, I'm getting that wrong. But ah he he would just, you know, he got fired from his ah job and then he would just go sit on a park bench and think about how he was going to murder his family.
Caroline: Yes. Oh, I remember that one. Yeah. I forget the name though. 18
bclawson: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lurch, lunch, something.
Caroline: years.
bclawson: Back to, oh my God, 18 years.
Caroline: That's a really long time. Oh, I'm ready to unpack this.
bclawson: Pretending. Can you imagine the mental and emotional um acrobatics you would have to do to have a double life for 18 years?
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: And one so lofty. In January 1993, his fraud was discovered and he became a family annihilator. Many magazine articles about him are in French.
bclawson: So I had a little bit of trouble finding some information about him. But i finally, you know, was able to do that. And I noticed that, and maybe you can help me with this.
bclawson: so Some of the articles that had been translated from the French into English called him a her. It was like a him or a her.
Caroline: oh Well, they do use gender in the language.
bclawson: It interesting.
Caroline: And so sometimes I'm guessing that can confuse the AI as to whether that's applicable to a person or speaker. But the gender is just in the language. So like, you know, if the word murderer is feminine...
Caroline: Well, actually, there would be two, right? Because that's like a noun. And usually you have like, I'm in American. Emphasis on the N. I get an extra like N and an E versus a boy or a man is going to be American.
Caroline: Like cut it off real, you know, he gets less letters than I do.
bclawson: Oh my God.
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: um Okay, so um buckle up, with listeners, because I really am out of my element.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Caroline is into her element, and so here we go. um You're going to be getting your French out of the closet, Caroline, and you're going to help me tell this family murder, and you're going to have a lot to say about
Caroline: Oh, la la.
bclawson: According to a psychology magazine, Jean-Claude's life revolved around an intricate and complex system of lies that nobody, even his own family, knew who he really was.
bclawson: what he did or how he spent his day-to-day life. And his family would never find out, since in order to avoid the suffering of knowing that he had lied to them, he ended up deciding to kill them all.
bclawson: So why did he do that? And why did he have this double life? Well, Jean-Claude was, his name is Jean-Claude Romand. So Jean-Claude was born on February 11, 1954, in a town called Lons-les-Seigneurs. Now, how did I screw that up?
bclawson: Lons-les-Seigneurs.
Caroline: We can't say any of the S's.
bclawson: thats so
Caroline: No, I'm just kidding. You can say the ones at the beginning, but not usually the S's. So it's like maybe l'on le saunier.
bclawson: Oh, geez. Well, that's the town that calls themselves Long-Lessigny ah Voltaire.
Caroline: Oh, cool.
bclawson: So, us yes, it's a...
Caroline: Le son y est votaire.
bclawson: Oh my God. Okay, so a small town near the Swiss border. In his eminency, he was a very lonely boy, according to this psychology magazine, which had been translated into English from the French, and so therefore i had a little bit of an interesting adventure reading the whole thing. But he was a lonely boy.
bclawson: He had few friends, and he had a very withdrawn attitude or affect. He was an only child. So that can do that can be, you know, what you attribute to why he was lonely, why he had few friends and why he would was withdrawn.
Caroline: as far as
bclawson: But anyway, as an only child from a very young age, he lived with concern for the health of his mother, a sickly woman. um of whom he was unaware of what she was suffering from, but who was excessively worried about any, or he became obsessively worried about any unforeseen incident, a fact that motivated him to hide his emotional states from her.
bclawson: So he could not be a child when he was a child. He did make up friends that he played with in his room.
Caroline: Yeah. but about What about his dad?
bclawson: And, ah
Caroline: Where's his dad at? Do we know what his dad's doing?
bclawson: well, you know, earlier when you say they take the dad's name and they cut it off short, apparently, you know, he was just like, you know, I'm off to work.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Good luck.
Caroline: Oh, okay.
bclawson: ah lot I don't, you know, he was not featured in much of work.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: what happened here and the ah articles about this.
Caroline: Oh, so interesting.
bclawson: He just did not play a role in Jean-Claude's life.
Caroline: Well, and at the time, I guess that would be culturally acceptable. you know, gender roles are still really prominent.
bclawson: Yeah, 1950s.
Caroline: Yeah. Okay. Okay.
bclawson: Nobody saw their father in 1950s.
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: um So anyway, this part here that I'm about to tell you our listeners is... I think at the heart, the soul, the core of why he did what he did.
bclawson: Jean-Claude grew up because of his sickly mother and not wanting to contribute in any way to her illness. what He was always supposed to consider whether it was appropriate to tell the truth if doing so would cause distress.
bclawson: Now, this is what he was taught as a child, either by his parents
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
bclawson: or his mother alone, I don't know.
Caroline: me
bclawson: But he he's going to always be trying to figure out, will this truth cause distress to anyone? If so, you do not tell the truth, you lie.
Caroline: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we're seeing the development of of lying as a human tactic. Right. I mean, it really is something everybody dabbles in.
bclawson: Yes.
Caroline: And there's a whole spectrum with which you can use it as a coping strategy. And I look ah so when I read this, I thought, M.G.,
bclawson: yeah
Caroline: This man did this and turned into a murderer. However, one of my favorite families to look into the history of is the Roosevelt family. If our listeners get a chance, please do it. The Ken Burns Roosevelt series is exceptionally good.
Caroline: ah
bclawson: I agree.
Caroline: But the FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, if you look at his upbringing, he's also an only child. His father suffered a heart attack and for the remainder of his young, young and into adult life until his father passed away. He and his mother conspired to lie consistently about anything bad going on to the father so as not to distress. So when I read this, I thought, OMG, so someone can do this. This is a very common practice in families, I think.
Caroline: But wow, the spectrum of where it can lead. ah FDR is one of the greatest historical figures Americans know. He brought us into what we knew we would be after the war, right? Second World War. Like huge, huge.
Caroline: And he did the same thing. But this man did the same thing and turned into a murderer. So I just found that exceptionally poignant, you know.
bclawson: I couldn't agree more. i think that's a really good parallel. And how interesting, because I did not, I did watch the Ken Burns on the Roosevelt's and I agree with your review.
bclawson: And I, what I didn't pick up in this story today is that, oh my God, you know, I was focused on, well, this man had no chance in life.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: That's not true.
Caroline: It's not true. It's just so subtle.
bclawson: so not true
Caroline: What happened? Yeah.
bclawson: Yes, okay. So in the academic field, Jean-Claude stood out for being a diligent student, a boy who could be considered very formal and introverted, who was not a fan of sports and who went through school without major problems.
bclawson: Once he had finished elementary education in high school, Jean-Claude decided to enroll in medical school, a career that he completed without problems until the second year.
bclawson: On the day of the final exam in physiology, he did not hear his alarm clock go off, and for that reason, he did not go take the exam, which was mandatory.
bclawson: This event mapped out his approach to life and was the first of his great lies, because he told his girlfriend Florence and his parents and associates that he had passed the The test.
Caroline: oh no.
bclawson: After this, for no particular reason, Florence just discontinued their romantic relationship. She was young, he was young, they're playing the field. Jean-Claude locked himself in his campus room when this happened, and he stopped going to classes, and he dedicated himself to reading new newspapers and watching TV.
bclawson: He gained 20 kilos, which is about 45 pounds, Due to lack of activity and junk food. Well, now we're talking kindred spirits with me. I can gain to 45 pounds pretty fast.
bclawson: In the following years between 1975 and 1986, so 75 to 86, he continued to enroll in the second year of his medical degree, presenting false medical certificates with which he justified his lack of attendance at classes and exams.
Caroline: oh Oh, no. Why not just retake the exam on the fly or the side? Like, I think you're right.
bclawson: I think he likes lying. He likes lying.
Caroline: He must have fallen in love with it and during this time because, yeah.
bclawson: does.
bclawson: Or addicted to it.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: um He even got Florence to resume her romantic relationship with him and established a daily routine in which he went to the university every day without actually going to class.
Caroline: I mean, we've seen people do that before, but like to what end? I mean, this is really early in your life. or
bclawson: Yeah, oh my God. So he changed his schedules to avoid meeting acquaintances who could discover him, and he studied the subjects of the degree to be able to talk with his classmates without raising suspicions.
Caroline: Well, now that seems like twice as much work as just doing the things.
bclawson: So if a
bclawson: a... Yes, yes. So, you know, we're on like, you know, the very introductory elements of our family murder today, and already we are so far down the rabbit hole, I can see no sunshine.
bclawson: So he even sometimes helped Florence study the subjects that she, a pharmacy student, found difficult.
Caroline: Wow. Yeah.
bclawson: So he's just, you know, choosing the wrong way to apply his brainy goodness.
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: After this period of time, he informed his family and friends that he had finished his medical degree and he had received a scholarship to work at the World Health Organization headquarters in Geneva, a few miles from the city where he lived.
bclawson: At that time, he was already married to Florence. They had married in 1984 and they had a daughter, Caroline, or you say it would be um pronounced
Caroline: Caroline. They say Caroline.
bclawson: Caroline, who had been born a year earlier 1985. In 1987, the couple's second child, Antoine, was born.
Caroline: Antoine.
bclawson: Yeah, but you can't, if you write it, you can't, you have to just call it Antoine.
bclawson: That's what you were saying.
Caroline: It's true. they do
bclawson: So the...
Caroline: That was one of the funny things when I was learning French. They say that. We just like the extra letters. We don't always say them. They look pretty.
bclawson: You know, the French are starting to sound pretty capricious to me.
Caroline: Well, I mean, they are one of the few nations I know of that have an entire academy dedicated to their language to say, yes, that fits. No, that does not.
bclawson: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Caroline: Yep.
bclawson: Try that with English.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: So the years after his supposed incorporation into the World Health Organization passed in a apparent common normality. Jean-Claude went to work every day.
bclawson: He claimed to travel constantly around the world for work reasons, and upon returning home, he made ostentatious displays of his research and conferences, although he was always careful to give few details, claiming that the information was secret.
bclawson: It's a secret.
Caroline: I mean, this guy's diabolical. Why wouldn't he have applied it Yeah.
bclawson: Yes, he's starting to get he's starting to like this thing that he's doing. He's addicted to it. It is who he is.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: But what was he actually doing during this time to be, you know, that he said he was at the WHO? Jean-Claude was wandering along the roads and bars, strolling through forests to sleep in his car and read World Health Organization pamphlets or books that he collected.
bclawson: He studied the maps of the cities to which he was supposedly traveling in order to maintain his lies.
Caroline: I mean, my God.
bclawson: He likes fantasies. He wants to live in this fantasy.
Caroline: I think you're right. Yeah.
bclawson: The way that a serial killer lives in his fantasy or her fantasy, in their head, he's just put a little non-blood, no-blood-yet way to do that.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Another big question that arose after all his lies came to light is how he managed to financially support his family since they maintained a bo bourgeois lifestyle that was financed by scamming family and friends.
Caroline: no.
bclawson: Nobody knew he was. He was like a Bernie Madoff, but just to relatives and friends.
Caroline: oh no
bclawson: This mostly did. hi He mostly developed two types of scams. One consisted of offering his acquaintance a and an investment plan with a high profitability, taking advantage of his work at the World Health Organization.
bclawson: In this way, he managed to defraud his loved ones of up to two and a half million francs.
Caroline: Whoa. actually don't know how many dollars that is, but whoa.
bclawson: Is that like two? Yeah, yeah. Another way was the sale of oncological medicines in a supposed experimental phase worth 15,000 francs each pill.
Caroline: Dang it.
bclawson: So let me get this straight. He would run around telling everybody that he could put them on a track of big time investment because he knew what diseases were not public yet or the cures that were not public yet and he could show them where to invest in or heat they could buy one of his pills or, you know, a series of pills for 1,500, or pardon me, 15,000 francs per pill for experimental medicines to cure their cancer.
Caroline: I mean, isn't this insider trading that he's engaging in?
bclawson: It's made-up insider trading, made-up insider trading, yes, yes.
Caroline: Made up of insider trading.
Caroline: I'm not happy breaking real laws. Let me mix them up.
bclawson: I mean, it is a law it is illegal what he's doing, but it's not insider training unless you want to say that he's in a company of one called the Jean-Claude Field of Lies.
Caroline: Right.
Caroline: Right. Like...
bclawson: that That would, yeah.
Caroline: Like it's not legitimate information that he has. He's making it up based on all this research he did about this. Wow. I mean, this woof. this woof
bclawson: Yeah, and you know, Caroline, he was getting away with it because nobody doubted good Jean Claude who had clothed himself in a social image of success and prestige and lived dedicated to his work and his family.
bclawson: And he was going to make them their savings grow and grow and grow.
Caroline: I mean, oh my
bclawson: You know, I mean, he had prestige.
Caroline: wow
bclawson: Ultimately, he did get discovered. After 18 years of this scam, Florence's father died in strange circumstances, falling down the stairs of a family barn while having a conversation with Jean Claude in which he asked for part of the money he had given his son-in-law to invest.
bclawson: Now, this fact is not a forward effect. This is a fact that was revealed
Caroline: Okay.
bclawson: yeah But he already was kind of, um you know, loosening up. He was starting to do things that were going to come questionable become questionable.
Caroline: Right. It's all unraveling, as they say.
bclawson: ah it's unraveling. He's, he unraveled like back in his bedroom.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Okay. Of his mother's house. And, but you know, he's now he's, yeah, the things are starting to start to stink.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Like, you know, days old fish. No one, uh, ah told Jean-Claude anything about the father-in-law's accident, but like to him, but it was behind the scenes.
bclawson: None openly doubted the honesty of this supposed doctor who was the head of the first-rate family in charge of ensuring everyone's well-being, including the world, because he's at the World Health Organization, and he knows what diseases, communicable diseases and so forth, are coming down the pike.
Caroline: Yeah. Wow. Right.
Caroline: right
bclawson: And he has secret pills that will cure your cancer. And then the big reveal began to happen to Jean-Claude.
bclawson: There had been a dispute in one of the classes at the school where the Romand children were in classes. So remember, they had two children it back in the mid-80s.
Caroline: Caroline and Antoine, how could we forget?
bclawson: So now they're in school. Yes, yes, right. A teacher had been terminated for some kind of low-level scandal like an affair or something with another teacher.
bclawson: Friends of this teacher came to Florence. Now, that's Jean-Claude's wife. two Is that how you pronounce Florence?
Caroline: Yeah, maybe it's like Florence or something.
bclawson: Okay.
bclawson: okay, so Florence, to see if she would get her husband to get the teacher reinstated. Now, Jean-Claude was at work when the friends came to her.
bclawson: So these friends are getting together. We need to talk to Jean-Claude and get him with all of his prestige and all of his reputation and everything wonderful about him.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: he can He was also on the school board, so he could get ah you know, a reversal of this firing of this man for having a silly affair with another teacher or something like that.
Caroline: Right. It does seem like something the French would be like, yeah, okay, just stop, you know, and move on.
bclawson: Yeah, yeah. Don't fire him.
Caroline: Yeah, you're not goingnna fire, but like, come on, man, don't have affairs at work, okay?
bclawson: Firing is too much.
bclawson: So I want to make sure um I'm clear about this scene. Florence is at home, okay?
Caroline: Okay. Yeah.
bclawson: The children are at school. Friends of this teacher who's been fired came to Florence, but they really wanted see Jean-Claude.
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: Well, Jean-Claude was not there. And so she told him that. But she also told them that he was at work, which, of course, is the World Health Organization headquarters in Geneva.
bclawson: And she said, why don't you give him a call? Here's his number. It was there. and then... that it was learned by these friends of the teacher that had been fired.
bclawson: They learned from the World Health Organization, phone like you know the people who answered the phones, and then they called again, and they tried to find, and all of these things, they finally came to the distinct include ah conclusion that Jean-Claude Romain did not, and nor did he ever, work at the World Health Organization.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Oh, snap.
bclawson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's some snapping going on. So, ah now, what are they going to do with this information? i think that they probably talked about it amongst themselves.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: They're not going to go, you know, tattle on him.
Caroline: Right back to foreign. Yeah.
bclawson: But it's a real head-scratcher.
Caroline: Oh my gosh.
bclawson: But there was a lot going on during this time ah when, yeah again, the unraveling is just it's getting faster and faster.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: And during this time, Jean-Claude had met a woman named Corinne, the wife of an acquaintance, for whom he began to feel a great deal of affection and whom he set out to conquer.
bclawson: She initially rejected him. No, I'm not going to be conquered. To which Jean-Claude responded with a suicide attempt.
Caroline: Okay, red flag just for all the listeners. That is red flag behavior.
bclawson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. ah He's love bombing her.
Caroline: That's right. And that's not your responsibility. he You give him all the hotlines and walk away.
bclawson: No.
bclawson: Yes, that's a good tip, actually. I never thought about giving them the hotline.
Caroline: That's how you show your care and you move on.
bclawson: foot Right. Yeah. This was followed by another big lie, to hide it, and a period of isolation at home in which he manifested depressive behaviors.
bclawson: The same behaviors that he had shown at when he was at the university.
Caroline: Oh, yeah.
bclawson: And so, you know she you know, he was depressed. He's going to kill himself. Corinne finally agreed. Fine, I'll maintain a relationship with you.
bclawson: And so they just went back to their affair, which was basically sex and eating out.
Caroline: Poor Corinne. Sorry she got involved in that.
bclawson: Yeah, yeah. she she You think you feel bad now, Corinne. Wait till you find out.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
bclawson: But having this new relationship, And adding a new and another lie had started to become increasingly difficult situations popping up all over the place for him.
bclawson: Corinne, who had also been a victim of his scam, she was she gave him money and she was trying to get her money back.
Caroline: Oh, geez, he's like...
bclawson: So she was a victim. she started She started demanding benefits from Jean-Claude. I'm not talking about sex.
Caroline: Yeah, she wants the...
bclawson: I'm not talking about eating out.
Caroline: She wants money.
bclawson: She wanted her money.
Caroline: Dang.
bclawson: Then his wife, Florence, began to believe that something strange was going on.
Caroline: Yeah, well...
bclawson: Now, no shit, Florence.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: And he's you got so much, but we can just divide it into, you know, a few categories here. He is a scam artist, and he's scamming all his friends and relatives out of their money.
Caroline: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Caroline: yep
bclawson: He is a scam artist, and he's lying to you when he says he's a doctor.
Caroline: yeah yeah
bclawson: He is a scam artist in that he is telling you that he is employed at the World Health Organization headquarters in Geneva. And he is also having an affair with Corinne.
Caroline: Which I don't even understand. actually hate this man so much more now than I did at the beginning of this episode.
bclawson: Well, he's easily depressed, Caroline, so be nice.
Caroline: and
bclawson: So anyway.
Caroline: I'll give him a hotline number and then I'm back to hating his guy.
bclawson: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. you Yeah, just give him another hotline.
Caroline: yeah Yeah.
bclawson: Here's another hotline. So, I mean, you know, he's got all of this stuff going on, and Florence has been oblivious to any and all of it. And she, you cannot ever convince me that there were not red flags.
Caroline: That's what I'm saying. And I wonder if in this instance, I don't know the timing, but were her friends, the teacher's friends that came to her, you can get a sense from your friends about what, you know, is traveling around in your in your social network.
Caroline: Do you know what I mean?
bclawson: Oh, yeah.
Caroline: You know when it's about you.
bclawson: Oh, yeah. The French, yeah youre what you're telling me is, done yeah I don't care if Voltaire was born in your town.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
bclawson: ah a town is a town town, and people are people. They're going to be gossiping.
Caroline: They're going to be gossiping and they're not going to tell you because now they're frozen with fear. They don't even know what to do with this information they found out, but they know your husband's been lying to you and for quite some time. Like they're going cold shoulder you from me.
bclawson: It's a
bclawson: Oh, yeah. So the walls, the walls, all them walls, they're coming down, Caroline. The walls of this false life that Jean-Claude is running.
bclawson: On January 9th, 1993, Jean-Claude Romain decided he had lost control and he decided to put an end to his double life.
bclawson: That day he met with Corinne, making her believe that they were going to go to a dinner at the house of an important World Health Organization collaborator.
bclawson: And halfway there, driving to the restaurant, he tried to kill her without success because she managed to convince him not to do it.
Caroline: What?
bclawson: She was a good talker, apparently.
Caroline: I'll say, Corinne, you are an interesting person.
bclawson: Yes, yes, she really is. After dropping her, and you know, here's what he said to her. He's strangling her, and finally she got a hold of him in such a way that she could say, stop it, this is stupid, you don't have to kill me, what in the hell, don't do this.
Caroline: Yeah, don't do this. Yeah. Oh my God.
bclawson: Jean-Claude, I love you. ah and she's you know her Why would you want to kill me? i'm your number one fan.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: I mean, she's just going on and on and on and convinced him not to do it.
Caroline: Wow.
bclawson: after dropping her back at her house, Jean-Claude headed to his own house. And once there, he killed Florence first, delivering several blows to his head, to her head,
Caroline: The gender does it. I know. Latet.
bclawson: Yeah, yeah. what Yes, with with a rolling pin. oh my God. So, like, a rolling pin. You know, those things are made out of marble over in France, I think.
Caroline: and Probably. Probably.
bclawson: I mean, you know, or heavy wood. I mean, it was heavy, and she died. And the next morning, while their children were watch were watching TV, she called them to come to her room and ah shot them both instantly.
bclawson: He called them to come to you the mother's room, and there shot them both instantly.
Caroline: It's hard.
bclawson: After having killed his wife and children, Jean-Claude went to eat, as he did every week, at his parents' house, and once there, he also killed his father, who was shot twice in the back, and his mother with one in the chest.
Caroline: Oh my God.
bclawson: So after these new deaths, he returned home, ingested a large amount of expired barbiturates, set the house on fire with the idea of dying himself, along with his loved ones, something that did not happen.
bclawson: Now, upon seeing the fire, the neighbors and friends of the family called the firefighters, who managed to extinguish the fire and remove all the family members from the house. But unfortunately, they only found a alive and not quite dead Jean-Claude Roman, who was taken to the hospital in a coma.
bclawson: Now, the first investigators did not take long to begin, and the bullets in the bodies of the miners and the blows to Florence's head, so the children and the blows to Florence's head were discovered.
bclawson: So they, know, you know I don't even want to call these people investigators. I mean, you know, they just, they know, you can see that they've been shot for one thing.
Caroline: Well, that's it. The fire didn't do enough damage to obscure the scene, really.
bclawson: No.
bclawson: Right. But now here's where the real investigation begins to come come into play by investigation. I mean, by the police, by the law, what do you call the gendarme?
Caroline: ah Probably. i think we call them the police.
bclawson: Is it,
Caroline: Police.
bclawson: The long hand of the law ah is is coming for you, Jean-Claude. ah So these investigations confirmed that Jean-Claude Roman did not work for the World Health Organization, and a note in his handwriting was found in his car where he confessed to all of the crimes that he had perpetuated.
bclawson: Pardon me, not perpetuated, perpetrated.
Caroline: Oh.
bclawson: and perpetuity, you know.
Caroline: Yeah. P-p-p-p-p-p-pah.
bclawson: Yes, yes. In the end, all his lies were discovered. No one in his circle of acquaintances could believe that the intentive and familiar Jean-Claude Romain had been capable of committing such acts and lying about every aspect of his life.
bclawson: But the evidence left no room for doubt. And you know, there was a lot that I read in French, converted into English, and it was a little bit hard to read, but basically I wanted to ask you, Caroline, in France, you know, do they readily believe the police or do they doubt the police?
Caroline: Oh, I would say they lean more towards doubt. They very much love to protest and strike and stick it to the main and give me more benefits. And I want less work hours and my week.
Caroline: You know, I mean, there are a lot like that. and And for them, i I know back in the aughts when I last was like studying this stuff, I think um I heard a lot that they would look at Americans like, why aren't you protesting more? You have this right. Why aren't you exercising it more? It's kind of their train of thought. you know When you have these rights, you exercise them. And so to your point, I think, yeah, there's probably a healthy sense of like oh you know taking sides, so to speak, in this story.
bclawson: Well, yeah, I mean, I got the sense that, you know, investigators are not um readily believed.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: So the fact that investigators were coming, official investigators with the law were coming forward with all this information caused it to be not easily taken.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Yeah.
Caroline: Ah, OK.
bclawson: For his part, when the false doctor woke up from a coma, he confirmed the facts. So now they're not doubting them anymore and stated that he had done so so that his family would not suffer when they found out about these lies because the lies were going to come out.
Caroline: So he's coming clean. Wow, he's full on coming clean. Because I kind of, like, there's a part of me that doesn't believe that he didn't believe that he was going to survive that fire or and he took expired burbot to it. Okay.
Caroline: Like, part of me is like, this is all just part of his continuation of a scam, but now it feels like he's full on coming clean. Like, I got i can't carry it anymore.
bclawson: Well, yeah, I mean, he was, I mean, that's why he strangled and tried to kill Corinne.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: It's because he felt like, I have to, she's going to find out.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: And now this is why I have to, straight I have to shoot my wife, i have to shoot my children, and I have to kill myself.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
bclawson: I don't think he tried very hard to kill himself.
Caroline: no
bclawson: I'll put it out there like that, because there were a lot of articles that indicated that Once the public knew what had really happened, they felt like, well, they began very suspicious ah approach to He just couldn't be trusted.
bclawson: age he just couldn't be trusted So what goes through someone's mind to commit this kind of act, Caroline? The four specialist psychologists who, in France, who evaluated Jean-Claude Roman, had, i mean, they sat down and they interviewed him and they had sessions with him.
bclawson: They had very serious difficulties diagnosing patients. And ah they finally came down to, we just think he's got a serious case of narcissistic personality disorder based above all on the reasons given by himself to commit said crimes.
Caroline: Right. Right.
bclawson: By himself. In other words, I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings by telling them the truth, which goes back to his childhood.
Caroline: right
Caroline: I do kind of feel like that's just as a side, really important piece of mental health that needs studying right away. Because whatever the cure is for people feeling that way, I mean, it is what drives a lot of murder.
Caroline: This idea that somehow the truth is so much more damaging than me killing someone and removing their life from the planet. I mean, that's got it. We got to nip that in the bud.
bclawson: I got the impression that the psychologists, who of course would be giving testimony um in trial, that that they didn't really want to stand by that diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder because...
Caroline: Oh.
bclawson: of the reasons that Jean-Claude gave of why he did what he did, and it all came back to i just kept not wanting to hurt anybody. But I'm thinking to myself, really, okay, so let's go all the way back to when you were in college.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: You didn't wake up in time to go take your test, so you didn't just go through the year again and take the test.
Caroline: Right, right, right. Like that doesn't hurt anybody. I don't know.
bclawson: Yeah, I don't know either. I think maybe he didn't want to lose his girlfriend, who was later his wife, who was later his victim, Florence.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe.
bclawson: um Maybe he didn't want to disappoint his parents.
Caroline: hey b
bclawson: So, I mean, you know, I'm thinking that, you know, when all of this kind of stuff started to spill, they were having trouble with it. And um by developing, by evaluating the depths of the facts and the pattern behavior that were told to them by Jean-Claude, they were having a hard time standing by this textbook narcissistic personality disorder.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: I mean, yeah, he did everything for his own benefit, but really, because his idea is that, no, it's for the benefit of the people I would disappoint.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: or hurt.
Caroline: Which is...
bclawson: So it's weird.
Caroline: It's super weird! ah
bclawson: What is most striking about Jean-Claude Romain's behavior pattern is the fact that his life revolved around a big lie, which only he knew, which made him even more lonely and even more withdrawn.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah.
bclawson: A person who is not comfortable trip in social settings and situations or being the center of attention. Well, ah okay, Jean-Claude, if you don't want to be at the center of attention, you need to take a lot more pills because, i mean, you're in it now, buddy.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: I mean, I'm still just, it's shocking the 18 years of creating a fake who employment scenario. I mean, just nobody discovered that.
Caroline: Like, don't know. It's pretty shocking. Pretty shocking.
bclawson: at At trial, this is what was told to the jury on January withdrew francs.
bclawson: um that would be equivalent to three hundred and one francs and twenty twenty two i don't know why i even
Caroline: I think euros.
bclawson: made that note
Caroline: yeah I think you you have the euro symbol there. So you might have converted francs to euros, which is, you know.
bclawson: Yes, okay, all right, sorry. And borrowed a twenty two caliber rifle with ah from his father. he He borrowed the rifle from his father, ah for which he purchased a suppressor and gas canisters and asked for them to be gift-wrapped.
Caroline: Huh.
bclawson: I mean, in other words, he is so into divisiveness. that he is borrowing his father's rifle, which is not, you know, divisive, but he when he goes to a store to purchase a suppressor and a and a gas canisters of, you know, flu, I guess the the inflammatory stuff, you know, the incendiary stuff, that he asks for it to be gift-wrapped so that it wouldn't be his.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: me Yeah.
Caroline: Right. So he could sell this idea that I'm buying it for someone other than me. Yeah.
bclawson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That night, according to the authorities, he beat his wife to death on the couple's double bed with a rolling pin. He left her body in the bed as if she were sleeping as normal.
bclawson: Oh my God, for you, Jean-Claude, that is normal.
Caroline: Yeah. Jeez.
bclawson: The next morning, Saturday, the 10th of January, 1993, he woke his children up. He had breakfast with his children. He watched cartoons with his children.
bclawson: He then made them go back to their beds where he shot them in the head. After these killings, the only people who could expose him were his parents and and his former mistress who wanted back the 900,000 francs that she had loaned him as a favor.
bclawson: So around noon the same day, Roman traveled to his parents' house where he joined them for lunch. Immediately after the meal, he repeatedly shot them and the family dog.
bclawson: Okay, now I hate him.
Caroline: Now, yeah, that is just like despicable, unnecessary. Dogs not seeing anything.
bclawson: How can that dog, how can that dog ever rat you out?
Caroline: Well, I mean, sometimes.
bclawson: Come on.
Caroline: i bet you that dog was always ratting him out. You know what i mean? Dogs know.
bclawson: Oh, that dog, you know, that dog could hunt and he had to kill him. That night, Jean-Claude sat and watched television before he poured petrol around the house, set it on fire, and took an overdose of sleeping pills.
bclawson: Now again, this is just the evidence at the trial.
Caroline: Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah.
bclawson: Whether this suicide attempt was genuine is doubtful, since some writers have pointed out that the pills he took were long expired, and he had access to even more if fit effective barbiturates.
Caroline: i agree with that
bclawson: There were more effective barbiturates right there in the house. Furthermore, he started the fire at four o'clock in the morning, right around the time that the road cleaners would be passing by.
bclawson: They immediately alerted the local firefighters who arrived in time to rescue Jean-Claude Romain. So he survived the blade blaze, but refused to talk to police during subsequent questioning.
bclawson: Later, of course, he spilled it all.
Caroline: I was going to say, yeah, but this is, I kind of agree with that, that I, I'm, I find his attempt at suicide disingenuous. I think it was a part of a greater plan to just get through this part of the next phase of his lies.
bclawson: I'm going to sleep through it.
Caroline: That's right.
bclawson: I'll but put myself in a mild coma, but I'll be safe.
Caroline: Yep.
bclawson: I mean, this man was a brilliant man to get into dr you know to get into medical school and do as well as he was doing.
Caroline: That's was going to say.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: And then, you know, people could believe that he worked at the WHO because he was up to date on all of the medical stuff.
Caroline: Well, I actually am willing to agree, too, that you don't have to have the college degree to reflect that you actually have the know-how and knowledge. That I'm willing, because, I mean, before there were college degrees, we did have doctors. So, I mean, people studying and learning, that's not, he clearly had that ability in spades.
Caroline: So, yeah, I go back to that single test. Why not just take the L that one year and keep on moving? Because it costs you twice the amount of energy to create the story that you did it.
Caroline: So you easily could have done it on your own with this one blip called set your two alarms, you know?
bclawson: I know, and I think that, you know, let's talk about gambling addiction for a minute as a metaphor for what's going on here. Pretend you're a child and you discover gambling and you start gambling with your friends on the rolls of the dice and then you become very happy and it's easy for you to get along with your friends now because
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah.
bclawson: you have this thing, this is your handle. Well, the brain records that, and every time the brain wants you to go from sad to happy, it's going to take you back to your happy place, and you're going to have the idea, let's go gamble.
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: So now this child grows up, this gambling addicted child grows up, and the first problem that he encounters was...
bclawson: forgetting to set the alarm properly or not waking up when the alarm went off and his brain is so entrenched in this gambling, you know, which in his mind is not the gambling, it's the making up stories so that other people don't get hurt.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yes.
bclawson: it yeah The brain records the things that make you happy and they turn them into habits.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yes. Yeah.
bclawson: And You can wake up one day and be so mad at yourself for engaging in your habit. Today is going to be different. I'm never going to do that again.
bclawson: And then by the end of that day, you have done it again.
Caroline: Yes.
bclawson: And as long as you've done it again, you're going to double down on doing it.
Caroline: Yes.
bclawson: And that, that, that, yes.
Caroline: It's all a brain game for sure.
bclawson: So that, that is... What has happened to Jean-Claude Romand? I have no sympathy for him for going 18 years of lies.
Caroline: Right.
Caroline: No sympathy yet. Yeah.
bclawson: I have no sympathy for him that he did not see that as bad and wrong and attempt to
Caroline: who
bclawson: Start a new habit of telling only the truth or something.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: He's a smart man. He knows how the brain works.
Caroline: Well,
bclawson: Well, maybe maybe they didn't maybe he didn't study that, but
Caroline: you might not have, but I think you're right. He would have studied a little bit about how to influence others, right? A little bit of psychology there, how to lie to other people, basically. I think you're spot on. he's This became an addiction for him because otherwise, why not stop? Why not use this ability you have to lie to get yourself into a totally different field unless you were desperate to be a doctor, which you must not have been because you never actually were.
bclawson: Yeah. Roman's trial for the murder of his family began on the 25th of June, 1996. On the 6th of July, 1996, Roman was found guilty and sentenced to life.
bclawson: That's a short trial for six people or five people, haven't murdering five people and a dog.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: i don't I don't know how they do it in France. I know that the judicial systems are different, though. I don't know what that difference is.
bclawson: Well, I know that here in America, you know, there's so much transparency that takes a lot of time.
Caroline: Yes.
bclawson: And in Europe, not so much.
Caroline: Yeah, more procedural. Like, it's this way or the highway, friend.
bclawson: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: So, Roman was found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment with no possibility of parole for 22 years. He became eligible for parole in 2015, an appeals court in Borgias, B-O-U-R-G-E-S,
Caroline: wo Yeah, I think I think you're saying it right. Oh, wow. bought bull
bclawson: Borgias, granted Roman parole in 2019. He had been in prison by that time 26 years.
Caroline: oh wow
bclawson: He was released into the custody of a nearby Benedictine monastery, and had an electronic bracelet placed on him to ins ensure that he did not try to escape.
Caroline: ah
bclawson: And that is where it's at today because he is still alive living in a Benedictine monastery.
Caroline: Well, what is he?
bclawson: He can go into the town, but he has to wear his bracelet and he has to be at the monastery by sundown.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: They don't make him go with a chaperone or a body cam or something?
bclawson: sundown
bclawson: No, he's on parole now. He's on parole. But it's a limited parole.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: It's a French parole where they say, you are now released.
Caroline: I kind of like it.
bclawson: By the way, you'll never be able to take this bracelet off your ankle and or your wrist or wherever they put it ah and ah without cutting off a limb.
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: Okay.
bclawson: So yeah of off with you to the Benedictine. So they can really apparently... you know, craft out what your life is going to be like on parole.
Caroline: Yeah. I kind of like that because it's it feels more balanced in the humanity realm around justice, but also freedom, you know, after a while. i mean, murder different, but what does he do with this Benedictine? Does he work? Does he contribute in some way to society? Like, do they make beer or something or wine?
bclawson: I have no idea. i think that they just want him there.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: And whatever those Benedictine months want what monks want him to do, he's probably going to lie about it.
Caroline: Right.
Caroline: I was gonna say. you He's probably lying to them.
bclawson: I mean, you know, maybe maybe there's an acceptance here that this is a man who cannot be rehabilitated. And at the same time, we're tired of wasting French money on housing this man.
Caroline: Yes.
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: So now we're going to legally require him to live in a monastery
Caroline: Love it.
bclawson: And he can only go into town during daylight and he has to go back.
Caroline: um That's the only part I'm surprised about that he doesn't he doesn't have to have a chaperone, like a monk chaperone or something. that That would be my only...
bclawson: Well, I'm not saying he doesn't because, remember, all the articles that I found were butchered um grammatically as far as I can concern.
Caroline: Oh. Yeah.
bclawson: Their pronouns are very vague. ah our current U.S. government would probably, you know, excommunicate whatever they're doing, sending export, you know, arrest.
Caroline: Yeah. yeah Yeah.
bclawson: um I don't know. ah just know that, you know, maybe he did have a chaperone, but I never read that in any of the literature that I that i read, which were news articles, mostly news articles that, you know, it did not help me
Caroline: Okay.
Caroline: Ugh. Scary diabolical. Yeah.
bclawson: to um to go on to newspapers.com because everything that came up there was in French.
Caroline: Was in French. Yep.
bclawson: um So what I had to do was try to find some American articles about this thing that was happening in France. And some were really illuminating.
Caroline: Oh, okay. Good. Yeah.
bclawson: um ah sp and And the ones that I found enough to put a podcast together about Jean-Claude Romain
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: If that's his real name. eight
Caroline: actually
bclawson: That's his real name. I'm just kidding. The only articles that I could really read and get enough information was psychology magazines.
Caroline: yeah
Caroline: oh because that is the most, I mean, that's the chilling part, I think, in this story for me. That's the part that sends the chill is this idea because I know what I know about FDR and his upbringing in the law. And I just know human nature. You know, it's this really kind of balance around coping. And there is some stuff you don't want to tell everybody, right? If I missed a test, I would just silently, quietly go through that year and try to come up with some weird explanation later about why there's this bump in my timing.
Caroline: I would, but I wouldn't.
bclawson: if you if you had a mind If you had a mind about, I don't want to disappoint anybody, you might blame it on the college.
Caroline: Right.
bclawson: They gave you the wrong time for the test and now you have to retake the test.
Caroline: Something.
bclawson: Why didn't he come up with a simple lie like that?
Caroline: That's what I'm saying. Like, why didn't he, why didn't he go to school and say, I was there. You lost my test. I mean, that would have been better.
bclawson: Oh, shit. No shit. That's why i early in the podcast, I think I might have said more than once, I think he likes to lie.
Caroline: i yeah, I think. Right.
bclawson: i think he likes to lie. And he built his life around the lie
Caroline: Yep. Yep.
bclawson: And that made him even more ah withdrawn and isolated and lonely.
Caroline: i
Caroline: yeah
bclawson: And those emotions made him want to lie even more.
Caroline: More. Yes. The brain got caught in a horrible cycle. Yeah.
bclawson: It's a cocaine.
Caroline: Yes.
bclawson: It's ah it's a... It's a, I mean, you know, it's a drug.
Caroline: It really is. It really, really is.
bclawson: it's ah It's just like nicotine. It's just like alcohol. It's just like gambling. It's just like um shopping.
Caroline: Shopping. People shop. Yeah.
bclawson: Yeah, gambling. already said gambling. Why do I keep saying gambling?
Caroline: Well, somebody's thinking about gambling.
bclawson: All right, I'm gambling that this is all I can tell you about Jean-Claude Roman because... That's all I can tell you. This is what I know.
bclawson: He's alive. He's living in a ben Benedictine monastery in his town where Voltaire was born and stayed his whole life and came up with some really good philosophical stuff.
Caroline: For sure.
bclawson: And I've never read any Voltaire that I can remember.
Caroline: Isn't he the I think therefore I am guy?
bclawson: But I...
Caroline: Yeah.
bclawson: Oh, really? Really?
Caroline: Je pense. ah Something je suis.
bclawson: Okay, so if I think that Jean-Claude Romain, in this case, has a saying, just like Voltaire, he's got a he's got a truth, just like Voltaire, and that is, i lie, therefore I'm safe.
Caroline: the There you go. Boom. Excellent mom. Excellent.
bclawson: Well, on that note, our research is solely based on public documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subjects. Episodes are aired every other week.
bclawson: Please tell your friends to join us and give us a review and subscribe, all that, because it helps new listeners find us. Thank you so much for joining us, listeners. We really appreciate you.
bclawson: And there is one last thing. Don't forget to live and let live. Bye-bye, Caroline.
Caroline: Bye-bye.
