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Understanding LGBTQ+ Career Progression – a conversation with Claire Ebury and Matt Haworth from Pride in Leadership
13 Plays6 days ago
Pride in Leadership, a CIC is the UK’s community for LGBTQ+ leaders was co-founded by Claire Ebury and Matt Haworth.
Away from Pride in Leadership Claire is a DEI consultant at On the Level, and Matt is a director at Reason Digital.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Claire, Matt and host Michael Millward explore the findings of research conducted by Pride in Leadership into how LGBTQ+ people experience career progression.
Work can be a safe place to be LGBTQ+, but the findings show that many LGBTQ+ people and people who managers believe are LGBTQ+ can be excluded from career development and promotion opportunities.
Michael expresses dismay about the number of LGBTQ+ people who do not feel supported by HR professionals.
The discussion investigates why this might be, with Michael explaining the challenges that HR professionals face when trying to support every minority.
Other aspects of the findings included in the conversation include
- The relationship between culture and policy
- The ‘Velvet Rut’
- Events outside the workplace that impact the workplace.
More information about Claire Ebury, Matt Haworth, Pride in Leadership and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
on zencastr Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida.
Discussion on LGBTQ+ Career Progression Research
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, Claire Ebrey and Matt Howarth, the co-founders of Pride in Leadership, and I are going to be discussing the findings of the national research conducted by Pride in Leadership into LGBTQ plus career progression.
00:00:44
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
Engagement and Guest Introduction
00:01:01
Speaker
Regardless of whether you are an experienced podcaster or just starting out, I recommend that you use the link in the description to visit zencaster.com and take advantage of the built-in discount.
00:01:13
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to, and probably good enough to share with friends, family, and work colleagues as well.
00:01:30
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, We won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today's Independent Minds guests are Matt Howarth and Claire Ebery.
00:01:43
Speaker
As well as being the driving forces behind Pride in Leadership, Matt and Claire also run their own businesses in the northwest of England. When I cross the Pennines, I always make my travel arrangements, well, my return travel arrangements, being a proud Yorkshireman, with the Ultimate Travel Club because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I pay trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and all sorts of other travel-related purchases.
00:02:10
Speaker
I have added a link with a built-in discount in the description so that you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club as well and enjoy travel at trade prices. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds.
Pride in Leadership and Its Goals
00:02:25
Speaker
Hello, Claire. Hi, Michael. Nice to be here. Nice to have you. Thank you very much for joining me. And hello, Matt. Hi there, Michael. Thank you very much for joining me today. Really do appreciate it. Before we talk about Pride in Leadership and this research, I think it's only fair that I should ask you about your activities away from Pride in Leadership and the businesses that you run. So, Claire, could you tell me a little bit about your business?
00:02:47
Speaker
Yes, thank you. i yeah I run a consultancy called On The Level and we focus on leadership and diversity inclusion. so we do consulting work, strategic work, but also a lot of training as well.
00:02:59
Speaker
And the training is aimed at supporting people from minority communities to break through their barriers to career progression and supporting the organisation to be as inclusive as possible.
00:03:09
Speaker
Great. Matt, what does your business do? So I run a tech for good social enterprise called Reason Digital. We have a team of about 50 designers, developers, project managers, researchers, and we find ways for mission driven organizations to use technology to help the people that they serve. Sounds really interesting. I will put link to your websites in the description. Thank you.
00:03:31
Speaker
No problem at all. Now, what is pride in leadership? Yeah, good question. So we always say, Matt, and i always laugh to ourselves that ah what we've just talked about on the level and Reason Digital, they're the day jobs and Pride in Leadership is our gay job that we do along this alongside. So... It's a Kirker community interest company that we set up sort of late 2019, I would say, although we only ah incorporated in 2021 as Pride in Leadership. We aim to elevate, connect and support LGBT leaders and aspiring leaders across all sectors.
00:04:07
Speaker
course, it's a noun, isn't it? Pride in Leadership. But when you say what is Pride in Leadership, it sounds a little bit more like a verb.
Systemic Barriers and Psychological Impacts on LGBTQ+ Individuals
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah, we were quite aware of that when when developing it, that actually that ties into finding in the research that we'll we'll talk about really that that active active allyship is is something that's particularly important and also taking active pride in in oneself as well are absolutely key in in terms of addressing some of the systemic barriers that we know LGBTQ plus people face at work. What was sort of like the catalyst do this research?
00:04:37
Speaker
This was something that Matt and I discussed for a long time. So we had our own experiences of being sort of LGBT, growing up, getting our first jobs, setting up our businesses eventually, all all of that kind of stuff.
00:04:51
Speaker
We also had anecdotal evidence from since we started Pride and Leadership, since we created this network, about their experiences, but there was hardly anything out there in the world that was proper research on LGBT experiences in the workplace.
00:05:07
Speaker
It was quite incredible, really, Michael. So when we looked at what what existed, there's stuff from Stonewall in 2018 about bullying and harassment in the workplace. You can be in a workplace where there's no bullying and harassment, but you might still be hitting those sort of glass ceilings and not realising why and not understanding, that there are sort of awkward experiences and those kinds of things. There was nothing to capture that. There was nothing to capture the legacy of growing up and having to come out, being at school under Section 28, all of that kind of thing that is impacting on people who are our age and and older, who are maybe in leadership positions, but also
00:05:47
Speaker
those people who are younger than us who who had a different experience growing up and the impact of coming out on them. it's quite a It has quite a strong psychological impact. Matt does a beautiful course on this that we deliver through on the level.
00:06:01
Speaker
matt I'm really interested in how we as LGBTQ plus people can sort of psychologically internalise some of these barriers And actually, you know, it's really hard to overstate the impact of growing up gay or ah trans in a homophobic and transphobic environment and how that leaves kind of long lasting psychological legacies with individuals that actually that they often don't get time to to kind of unpack those. Particularly, they don't find the the sort of camaraderie within their organizations to actually find other people that have those experiences. So, you know, one of the most rewarding things that we we do at Pride in Leadership and with with some of the courses that Claire mentioned is really kind of get people together to share some of those stories and to unpack some of that stuff.
00:06:44
Speaker
And it can have a really freeing effect on on people's confidence and and their thoughts about where they would want to go with their career. That's why we wanted to set the research up, because there was hardly anything out there that existed.
00:06:57
Speaker
There are a generation of LGBT plus people who are in leadership roles. But one of the things that comes out from the research is that there are potentially lots of other people from the community who had the potential to be in leadership roles, but were prevented by the sorts of things that you talk about. Well, yeah, you're not being bullied, you not being harassed.
Organizational Culture and Biases
00:07:21
Speaker
know There's all sorts of things in place, but there's still that undercurrent, the unconscious aspects of the organisation and the system that it operates, which make it difficult for people from the LGBTQ plus community to actually progress their career. Michael, it sort of touches on all aspects of life. And and i don't mean that every single LGBT person has the same experience. Of course I don't. But what we did do with this report was we pulled out people's experiences. So it's not just numbers. It's also a series of quotes from people as well, so that we really tried weave a narrative that was true to all of these different experiences.
00:07:59
Speaker
But if you think about it ah influences your educational experience. A lot of people reported bullying and they reported perhaps not getting the exam results that they might have achieved, not being able to concentrate at school, not being able to think about university because they were so stressed about ah coming out and, ah you know, what their parents would say and what people at school would say. But it also influenced things like what they chose to do at school, the the lessons that they undertook, but maybe because they were trying to hide their gayness or appear less gay. I always use the example of
00:08:32
Speaker
you know boys going into science because drama and arts things might have looked a bit gay and they didn't want to draw that attention on themselves. So they might have picked things that weren't actually their passion necessarily.
00:08:45
Speaker
So that's that's you know two elements, just really young. And then it's things like where you live. So a lot of the people that we spoke to said that they wouldn't live in certain countries for obvious reasons, because it's illegal to be lgbt or even that they wouldn't live in the UK in places that weren't cities because there wouldn't be decent LGBT communities, or even we had quite a lot of people saying we wouldn't live anywhere other than Manchester, London and Brighton in the UK because these are the most welcoming places. Well, that impacts your career as well.
HR's Role in LGBTQ+ Support
00:09:21
Speaker
Yes, the industries that are perceived to be welcoming or unwelcoming, the locations, if you ah work for an international organisation and they want to move you to a country where being you could lead to you facing a death penalty, you're not going to want to move there and you shouldn't have to move there.
00:09:42
Speaker
But organising careers around those sorts of restrictions can isn't something that many organizations actually sort of take the effort to to think about.
00:09:54
Speaker
With my HR professionals hat on, one of the statistics that came out of the research was 42% of people that have faced some sort of issue at work and have gone to one of my HR professional colleagues looking for help have felt that they haven't been supported.
00:10:12
Speaker
That shocks me. It's a pretty strong number, isn't it? And one of the big themes that came through was the theme of banter. So ah where does it stop being fun in the workplace? You know, lots and lots of organisations have policies in place.
00:10:29
Speaker
Most of them now, I would say, are are equal. But when it comes down to implementing those policies, the HR team are missing some of the point of it, really, because because all those things can be in place. But the culture is actually driven on a day-to-day level by the people that you're sitting next to, the person who's your line manager, for example, their boss, and the culture that's created.
00:10:51
Speaker
And so we've had people say things like, I was i was asked to go on to Grindr to find new colleagues, you know, that kind of thing. And it's funny the first time, but it's not that funny the 50th time. What do you think HR people can do to actually change the situation?
00:11:09
Speaker
I think education, educating themselves is is really, really important. Obviously, kind of listening and not being afraid to ask questions of LGBTQ plus colleagues, recognising the fact that actually LGBTQ plus people are often burdened with the need to kind of educate everybody around them.
00:11:24
Speaker
about things. So, you know, not taking it for granted that they necessarily can get that kind of free education from them. But in most cases, you know, but better to to ask than to feel kind of awkward around it.
00:11:35
Speaker
But also to look into some of the positive things that can be done around kind of visible shows of support for LGBTQ plus colleagues, such as participation in in Pride events and going a further level, investing in kind of training or more structural interventions, thinking about how existing interventions can be extended for queer colleagues, such as payout reporting, for example.
00:11:55
Speaker
Thinking about kind of the the policy environment within the organization, You know, if you have a trans member of staff turn up to work and tell you that they have transitioned genders, what's in place to to make that process run smoothly? Because there's probably about a dozen different things that have to be done there in terms of updating staff records, email systems, working with them to notify colleagues if they wish to have support with that, e etc. So that's some of the things that colleagues in HR could do to help address some of these barriers. Yes, it becomes a very complex issue.
00:12:26
Speaker
And it has two sides. There is the HR side, and then there is the side, if you want to talk about a trans employee, for example, then I would hope that an employee in that sort of situation would have the confidence, and I know it's like just my hope, that they would be able to talk to their line manager, to someone in ah HR, and say, this is...
00:12:50
Speaker
the journey that I am on rather than simply arriving at work one day once they've reached their destination so that people can be supportive throughout the whole sort of journey and be on that journey with them so that it is we create the support by working together rather than walking in and saying this is the situation you've now got to adapt to to me let's work together to create okay we're all on a learning curve We're all trying to work out how do we make sure that we get the best talent into our organizations.
00:13:22
Speaker
And if you're thinking, know, I need the talent, I just need to make sure that the people who work in this organization are the best people for the job, regardless of whatever, and the world is increasingly diverse.
00:13:35
Speaker
It's about, as an HR professional, creating an environment, a culture, an atmosphere where people are able to say to me, I'm a woman who lives with another woman and we're married. to How does this policy be implemented for me in my situation?
00:13:53
Speaker
Absolutely. I have to have thought that through in order to then explain to that person so that person can go away and think like, I thought I might have had an argument there, but they've thought about me. They've thought about me before I arrived and it's all going to be okay. It's all going to run smoothly.
00:14:10
Speaker
I worried about something and nothing. I built the asking the question into ah huge mountain, whereas really it was just a few grains of sand because they'd thought about me before I arrived and they were able to explain it to me in a positive, supportive way as if, so what type of thing? This is how the policy applies to you.
00:14:29
Speaker
that's That's the gold standard. And that's what we'd really hope, you know, that's what we're working towards, I guess, is is every organization being able to be in that place. And I think we've got to acknowledge that LGBTQ plus staff members will be walking into that, having had a lot of past experiences that have been deeply negative, that have let them down, and actually, potentially, you know, for our trans and non-binary colleagues, be switching on the news or opening the newspaper or the ah the the app showing my age there, their news app every day.
00:14:59
Speaker
to to news about how they're actually losing rights rather than gaining them. you know And that's a double-edged sword for HR professionals in the sense that, well, yeah you're working with a situation that has has quite a difficult starting point sometimes in terms of kind of colleagues' feelings about this or colleagues' trust in how the world may cater for them or not.
00:15:18
Speaker
But the other side of that is the immense positive impact you can have by recognising some of those challenges, acknowledging them with those members of staff and understanding that things are really tough for some of them right now and providing that support for them so that they can they can do their best at work. That's the key thing.
00:15:34
Speaker
As an HR professional, I want to create an environment which means that that person who has the qualifications, the experience, the skills hard on staff skills to do that job really well is not distracted by things that are not connected to their ability to do that work.
00:15:51
Speaker
So we put in place all sorts of things and it's it's just the case of saying, okay, fine. We're not going to be dismissive of it and we're not going to make it into something that it isn't.
00:16:03
Speaker
But thank you for trusting us, sharing that information with us. If we have a policy that you think puts you at a disadvantage, Tell us about it. Don't moan in private.
00:16:14
Speaker
Come and tell talk to us and explain to us why it is that this is a problem or how it might create a problem. And then we'll review it and do something about it. Michael, one of the other things that's that's come through the research that's quite a strong message is sort of the other side of this argument, which is once you're in an organisation where you're treated well and you feel like you fit, a lot of people stay.
Challenges of Career Advancement for LGBTQ+ Employees
00:16:39
Speaker
And they stay in roles that are beneath the their potential, basically, because they are afraid to move on. They're afraid to put their heads above the parapet to go for a promotion in the organisation in case it moves them into a team where they're not as comfortable or they're they're afraid to move to another organisation for that promotion.
00:16:58
Speaker
We're calling it in the report a velvet rut. And I've got quotes from people saying the overwhelming driver has been to stay safe and it's definitely affected my career choices and satisfaction.
00:17:09
Speaker
ah Somebody even said, I've spent most of my working life being bored. And again, that is a big challenge for HR people because that isn't what you want either. no You want to create the perfect organisation where, yes, people feel supported and you're there you know when they have huge challenges, Matt's described,
00:17:28
Speaker
But equally, you want you want them to achieve their potential for you. You don't want to go out and recruit extra people. That will cost lots of money. If the right people are there, how do you make sure that you're getting them into the best position? Over 80% of the people who completed our survey had had no training.
00:17:45
Speaker
to help them to overcome the barriers that they face as LGBT people. And I know that, you know, there's lots of training out there, for example, for women to help them get into leadership roles or to take the next step, which is a brilliant thing.
00:17:57
Speaker
just needs to also apply, I think, to other areas, other minority groups, basically, because that's often neglected, I think, by HR teams. Yes, it's a bit of a challenge to work out which minority group to do something for.
00:18:12
Speaker
Of course, part of the issue is that women and people of colour are in the workforce. you The reality is that with people from the LGBTQ plus community, they've learnt how to not be open.
00:18:29
Speaker
And you never really know how many people you may have from your that community in your organization. And the first part is that making it okay, making it possible, making it supported to say, you know, tell us about yourself.
00:18:45
Speaker
Because the big risk is that sometimes you have people who say, okay, this is me, this is the real me. And then that just gives those people, homophobic people, the bullies, the people with a negative view of the world, the opportunity to beat you up something else. Yeah.
00:19:03
Speaker
So sometimes I'm in conversations where people don't know that I'm gay. it's It's not very pleasant because they will say homophobic things that they would never say in front of me if they knew that I was gay or when they know I'm gay.
00:19:15
Speaker
So it gives you an insight into what the world's really like out there. sometimes. And that needs to be nipped in the bud. So some two straight people talking to each other and one of them says something homophobic, the other person needs to say, you can't say that kind of thing here.
00:19:29
Speaker
That's part of the challenge. I was talking to ah a big company, an EDI person from a big company last week, and one of their challenges is non-disclosure ah application form level, because it then means that you don't have disclosure, not just of LGBT, but of other minority groups as well.
00:19:45
Speaker
All the way through that person's working for an organisation. So we're looking to do a project together to improve disclosure at that level as well. But disclosure then for LGBT people goes through sort of every day because people do make assumptions about you.
00:20:00
Speaker
So coming out is one of the challenges that that you have sort of constantly.
Continuous Process of Coming Out
00:20:04
Speaker
Well, I think it was Graham Norton who said that there is no stopping of the coming out process. You think that it's it's one day, but it's once you've done it, it's for the rest of your life.
00:20:14
Speaker
Every new person that you meet, every work environment that you go into, you're faced with that. So, yeah, I want people to know, but what's going to be their reaction?
00:20:26
Speaker
I think we hit upon a really important point here, a very nuanced point ah about coming out and about passing. You know, this is something that came out in the research that actually some LGBTQ plus people can pass as ah straight or as cisgendered and actually their experiences may be very different to somebody who is more likely to be assumed to be gay or trans.
00:20:45
Speaker
And actually, we've got to acknowledge as well that cisgendered and straight people can sometimes be presumed to be trans or non-binary or gay, and that can have a real impact on them in the workplace as well. yes So that's something that really strongly came out in the in the research alongside the coming out stuff is that that gives a a whole host of different experiences.
00:21:03
Speaker
And you're absolutely right, Michael, coming out is is an absolute continuous process. And you may have to come out with multiple identities. you know It may be coming out as trans and then later as a lesbian, for example. So it's so it's not clean cut.
00:21:15
Speaker
But think part of the issue is that people want to put a label on other people and they see something that they think is a stereotype of something. And then therefore that person must be.
00:21:28
Speaker
Whereas actually what we're really talking about is the the closed world that that person actually lives in. that they have not had experience of meeting people from different cultures ah who live different types of lives.
00:21:42
Speaker
And that becomes something that impacts their ability to do their jobs as well. So at the end of the day, there are no winners. I mean, for HR people, the challenge is to make the organisation the winner, isn't it? And to do that, you need to create the the best environment.
00:21:59
Speaker
Sorry to say it, but I'm not a fan of describing... the organization as something that is responsible for anything because the organization is just a form you send to companies house in lots of ways.
00:22:11
Speaker
The organization is the people that work within it, the people who lead it and all the decisions that they make. The arrival of someone who is different is an opportunity to learn rather than make life difficult for people.
Policy vs. Culture in the Workplace
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, we talk about in the report about how culture eats policy for breakfast. Yes. You know, and actually whilst an organization may have a set of policies that we could associate with the concept of an organization, it's actually how those policies are actualized, as you say, how people communicate and ultimately all of those micro decisions that get made on a moment to moment basis that really are shaped by the culture.
00:22:48
Speaker
of the organization and as I guess everyone in HR knows you know shifting and changing a culture is is a very important thing to do but not always a very easy or very quick thing to do. so We have lots of episodes of the Independent Minds about culture change.
00:23:03
Speaker
believe we but We could talk for several hours about about that in particular but you know looking to the future what do you think are the the next steps? I think it's about moving away from kind of symbolic or tokenistic support for LGBTQ plus people often that is like we are kind of burdened with organizing so often it might fall to us as as queer people to kind of organize the pride entry or or brunch or whatever that the company's doing to thinking about well actually how can we use the opportunity do have responsibility to these people to support them and to train them to actually help to address some of these systemic and long-standing issues so can't stress enough actually supporting your employees with this with things like training and more proactive forms of support and and thinking you know if you do have a program at work that seeks to support causes or
00:23:50
Speaker
people within the local community, considering whether that takes in LGBTQ plus causes or members of the the local community as well. I think the other thing to acknowledge really is that so things are quite stressful for LGBTQ plus people at the moment. We turn on the news and we see people that we know actively want to take away our rights, gaining and increasing political power, or people that we thought were in our corner tokenistically or opportunistically speaking against us in order to to win political points. And it's quite scary.
Economic and Political Pressures on Diversity Efforts
00:24:19
Speaker
And I think we've got to recognise that our LGBTQ plus colleagues, we do need all the help we can get from our allies at the moment and all the support that we can get, not just in those kind of direct and tangible ways at work, but sometimes just in terms of kind of acknowledgement that things are difficult and that somebody is in our corner.
00:24:35
Speaker
could can mean the world that actually even if the Supreme Court decision has gone a certain way, for example, in Scotland, that of course, we're not going to expect you to use a bathroom that you're you're uncomfortable with at this workplace.
00:24:46
Speaker
and And getting on the front foot of that and expressing that to, for example, a trans colleague. you can really mean the world to somebody and can really help them show up at work in a much more free and kind of less stressed out way. yeah just ah Just on that as well, I think that this is a particularly ah difficult time for businesses. I think they're under quite a lot of pressure. I've spoken to a lot of big organisations who are actually reducing their diverse and inclusion work, or at least they're changing what it's called, or they're talking about wellbeing instead of diversity or instead of inclusion.
00:25:18
Speaker
I would say lead with your values and make sure that you are still creating these workplaces, whatever you call it, you still need to be doing the training and the inclusion work to to set the culture.
00:25:30
Speaker
You need to be doing active bystander work to make sure that the banter isn't tipping over into something that's actually ah creating a really ghastly place to work as well. yes Not stepping back from that at this really crucial time. This feels to me like it's a blip and it's driven by politics and culture wars and that kind of stuff.
00:25:50
Speaker
But organisations will last longer than this and people will remember who was there, who was deliberately trying to find a supply chain that was diverse, for example, so that they're putting their their money and into new hands. People who provided the the training on diversity and inclusion at the moment when there's so much negativity about it.
00:26:10
Speaker
And people who really put that effort in. we We can see that it is difficult. You know, we've had people pull out of events because their business has said, you can't go in talk about that particular LGBT issue at the moment with everything else that's going on. so So we know that there is pressure, but we need to be making sure as as the HR people especially, that that they are offering that support.
00:26:31
Speaker
And we can help with that, you know, come to Pride. We've got a Pride and Leadership does an annual conference, you know, send people to our event, for example. It doesn't have to be that you create everything yourself, like lean into the things that that are out there in the world that that you can lean into as well.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds
Conclusion and Importance of Research
00:26:48
Speaker
great. It's just half an hour and I really appreciate your time and you've given me really good flavour of the findings of the research. A lot of it is unpleasant to hear about, especially that 42% of people don't feel supported by members of my profession, which is shocking.
00:27:06
Speaker
But we have scratched the surface of the research. It is very interesting. We'll put a link in the description to the full report. For today, Claire, Matt... Thank you very much. I really do appreciate your time.
00:27:18
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. Great to speak to you, Michael. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent minds, Claire Ebrey and Matt Howarth from Pride in Leadership, about the findings of the national research conducted by Pride in Leadership into LGBTQ plus career progression.
00:27:39
Speaker
You can find out more information about the research and about Matt and Claire and myself at abeceda.co.uk. There's a link in the description. of the changes we all probably need to make in life is taking a more active interest in our health.
00:27:55
Speaker
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00:28:16
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:28:29
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and as you would expect discount code in the description.
00:28:43
Speaker
I am sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Claire, Matt and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:56
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. And you'll probably want to share the link with your family, friends and his work colleagues, especially those people who work in ah hr Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:29:14
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening, and goodbye.