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Anna Stubblefield (TELL THEM YOU LOVE ME)
693 Plays8 months ago
Join the Mothers of All Crime as we discuss the compelling Netflix documentary Tell Them You Love Me. This documentary portrays a story about a university professor who had a romantic relationship with a profoundly disabled man. This case has so many intriguing topics- love, abuse, power, race, education, disability, etc. We cover it all while we discuss the legal proceedings and consequences of this most unusual " love affair".
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background of Anna Stubblefield
00:00:12
Speaker
This week on the Mothers of All Crime, we're going to be talking about Marjorie Anna Stubblefield, the documentary Tell Them You Love Me on Netflix. Yeah, and for most people, I think Marjorie is going to be a surprise. I know it was for me, where I had no idea that was her legal name until the end of the documentary when they're reading out like her sentence saying That was the first time I had heard anybody ever refer to her as Marjorie. It was always just Anna. Absolutely. She's referred to throughout the film as Anna or Professor Stubblefield because she is a professor at Rutgers University.
Anna's Professional and Personal Life
00:00:54
Speaker
um But yeah, apparently her first name is Marjorie. So that's her legal name. And like you said, it's mentioned in court, but pretty much nowhere else.
00:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, so like you said, she was a professor at Rutgers. She was born in December of 69. She is a highly educat educated woman. She was the director of philosophy department. She taught at the dictoral level um and really well renowned kind of in her field and a lot of cutting edge like work specifically with individuals with disabilities, intelligence, and that construct between yeah relating someone's disability who may not be able to vocalize or visually seem intelligent, and believing they have a lot more intelligence internally that they struggle to communicate.
00:01:52
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, she's a celebrated scholar. And she did a lot of research and a lot of teaching in the areas of race and disability and sexism. She she kind of wove all of these topics together, which makes sense in a philosophy standpoint, for sure. And she did do practical work with people who she said were labeled as disabled.
00:02:15
Speaker
um She said that her mother had said that labels were for jars and not for people and that that is something that had stuck with her throughout her life because her mother was also someone that was an advocate for people with disabilities. And that's kind of how Anna modeled herself and how she lived her life as well and it reflected in her teaching.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I think from a visuals perspective, if people haven't seen what she looked like, she is, she looks very smart. I know that seems kind of weird to say, but um she... I mean, that's why she wears glasses.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yes, she does have glasses. Sometimes she'll be in contacts, which will come up later, which is why I think we're bringing it up. That's true. And about 150 pounds, I would say 5'8", I think is what I saw.
00:03:08
Speaker
um And she is white, and she definitely tries to balance the race card a lot in her studies. You see her part of a lot of committees focusing on diversity in African-American and kind of integrating the two, which is kind of, I think, where John, who John Johnson, who is part of a PhD program, kind of originally attracted him to her, because his brother, Derek, has severe disabilities as well. So I think that's kind of where that connection originally grew.
Introduction to Facilitated Communication
00:03:53
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, Anna is a professor of philosophy, and she's also married to a black man, Roger Stubblefield, and they have two children who are interracial. So I think that being an advocate for people with disabilities and then becoming part of an African American family and incorporating that further into your studies and all of these things go together. It's how she presents herself academically and socially and in general. And like you said, she met John Johnson, which just that name is why insane to me. Why would you do that?
00:04:28
Speaker
So there's this there' is this lovely family in Irvington, New Jersey, which is very close to where I live right now. It's about 20 minutes from where I live. um So I could go visit with them, maybe. So there's this family, Daisy Johnson, John Johnson, which come on, why would you name your kid John Johnson? Anyway, and then Derek Johnson is the younger son. So John is getting a doctoral degree at Rutgers in Newark, and he had Dr. Stubblefield as a professor and learned about this concept called facilitated communication.
00:05:06
Speaker
There was a video shown in a classroom where this woman who was profoundly disabled, had autism, was nonverbal, was able to express herself and communicate through something called facilitated communication, which basically involved someone holding a keyboard and helping It's so hard how to phrase this because the way you say it I think affects how it's thought of. So I don't want to say that they're helping hold the harm arm, but they're holding someone's arm to steady it so that that person is supporting it. It's supported, supervised, helped communication for someone who is unable to communicate in any other way, essentially. Yeah, I think they use the word stabilized a couple times, which yeah
00:05:58
Speaker
is a good indication at this point. So just to kind of give that visual because a lot of the individuals have involuntary movement. So if you're able to just stabilize the arm, they can then direct their fingers to the key that they're looking for or to the picture that they're trying to point at. So Derek is had, ah they knew from day one that he was different.
00:06:25
Speaker
Um, he had impairments had, and it came out original eventually that he was diagnosed with seropalsy, nonverbal, severe mental retardation. It's kind of how they described it in the documentary. Um, but overall, that is definite yeah, his family says that he's a happy guy. They love him. They,
00:06:49
Speaker
still, regardless of disability, they're taking him out to do stuff, the movies, the beach, vacation. They give him, once he was of age, he could have a beer, he could have food, like they really did their best to treat him like any other person and kind of adjusted to his disability, which I think is the best thing you can do in a scenario.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yes. I mean, his mother Daisy seems like an incredible woman and she spent a lot of years advocating for people with disabilities, especially African-American people with dis disabilities. She did a lot of charity work and she definitely is extremely supportive of both of her sons and very proud of them and loves them deeply. um She had to deal with a lot as a single mother because her husband left after Derek was born.
00:07:47
Speaker
He was impaired as a baby. He had ah many seizures and an infancy. And there their father did not stick around for that. So Daisy was left with the brunt of raising both of them, especially Derek, who is super profoundly delayed. And he was able to walk. He is able to walk somewhat. And he is able to communicate in some ways. um Daisy had said that if he is very hungry,
00:08:17
Speaker
he would be He would bang on the table or he would bang on the fridge and say eat. Sometimes he would say ma or john, but he had extremely, extremely limited words and a very profoundly limited ability to communicate. um Like you said, they kept him as part of the world. He would go to day centers. He would be out and about with the family. They would have a lot of family parties. He was very loved and included in everything, as he should be.
00:08:46
Speaker
Absolutely. And the other nice thing is that his brother John truly embraced him and kind of took on an additional role to help his mom as he got older, which, you know, like as an individual could go either way. And I think that him truly embracing the situation is amazing.
00:09:08
Speaker
But also, he always wanted to advance his brother the best that he could. And when he found someone who believed that they could help him communicate more, because the school he was in helped that movement, the idea of him living an even more normal life is appealing.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. They definitely wanted him to be part of the world, and they knew that being part of the world meant communication. And when John saw the video in Anna's classroom, it was extremely impactful for him. And it brought to mind a lot of memories of his brother, and he was wondering if this is something that could help him, and if that he would have the same experience that this woman on the video is having because not only was she able to communicate with her family, but she was able to go on and get an education. She went to college. She was just able to have like a much more full life and education because of that facilitated communication. um So he approached Anna about it after class and mentioned Derek's situation and
00:10:28
Speaker
was asking about who they could contact for facilitated communication. And there is no one local that does it. So Anna had offered to come over and just to try. And she had had experience with facilitated communication in her profession, but even in childhood because her mother practiced as a facilitated communicator and Anna would film those sessions for her. So she had a ton of experience doing it and agreed to try it out with Derek.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, her mom was actually one of the forerunners of the entire kind of understanding of all of it. And I think that gave her part of me feels like it gave her an open compensation of feeling that she already knew more than everybody else about it, because she did tell him the best accredited place to go would be Syracuse University.
00:11:27
Speaker
very, very, very expensive. And that's when she kind of introduced the idea of coming over. But I think because her mom was one of the founders in this practice, it gave her that confidence to go into a home and be able to evaluate if this is something that Derek would be able to learn.
Derek's Communication Breakthroughs
00:11:54
Speaker
Yes, she definitely held herself out as an expert. in facilitated communication. So she brought over her Neo, which is like a special type of keyboard that is used for facilitated communication, and it actually records everything that is typed into it. So throughout the documentary, throughout the court, everything, they have all of, well, not all of it was able to be used in court, but throughout the documentary.
00:12:23
Speaker
you're able to see what was actually typed into this Neo, typed from Derek, typed from Anna. It's all recorded. Right. And from my understanding, watching it and doing a little research online as well, the way there were multiple steps to it. So first she came over and just without any assistance or anyone touching him, they would put out pictures and ask Derek to grab things or point to things.
00:12:53
Speaker
um to realize, okay, his understanding is this. Sometimes it might take him a little longer, but if you say, pick up the cup, he eventually would pick the picture of a teacup. And then it would turn into them holding all his fingers down. So one fingers out, he'd point to something. And then the last step is that keyboard pressing down on the buttons and She started spending about seven hours a week with him, one-on-one working on this. And it seemed that he was very, very responsive. He started putting things together, he sentences, words, if he made a mistake and it was corrected, he never would make that mistake again. And by the end of the year, he was writing full sentences on this keyboard and communicating.
00:13:48
Speaker
it was like a miracle. And you could see in John and Daisy when they're talking about it, how bittersweet that kind of is for them because it did feel like such a monumental, I can't imagine the emotion of finding finding this way to communicate with a sibling, a child that has been essentially lost to you. And it it was a huge deal.
00:14:15
Speaker
and um All of a sudden, Derek is able to to communicate. He has this dynamic with Anna and she is pushing him to do more. um She basically is saying that he's an intellectual, that he has been observing everything his family's been doing. He's been reading newspapers. He's been silently observing everything and he just needed to be unlocked.
00:14:42
Speaker
which was right very, very exciting for the family. Yeah. And when you're being presented that information as a family, you have commentary from John kind of being like, well, I remember I'd be reading a newspaper and he'd lean over and look at it. He's like, was that mimicking behavior or was he actually looking at it and interpreting what it was saying? And when you have a expert as well you perceive as an expert in front of you telling you this is why he had been doing that all these years. Now he can communicate as a nonverbal person. That's amazing. And next thing you know, he is in his first college level class about African American studies and participating and writing a paper and reading the book and
00:15:37
Speaker
again, his family is seeing an opportunity for him to truly kind of come into the world in a way that he never had and what they never thought he could. Absolutely. I mean, he was support surpassing all expectations, because other previous evaluations of Derek had stated that he was So I saw different things. I saw some that said that he was mentally 18 months. I saw some that he was two and a half. I saw some that he, it was, so I think that young toddler essentially yeah is where his mental capacity had been capped yeah um by other, or or even infant, depending on who you asked. So this is really, really groundbreaking that he is now considered to be college
00:16:30
Speaker
ready. right So he starts taking his classes in one year within a year. And you know, i did I did want to mention this just because I find it very interesting. And I do want to refer back to this later. He, Derek,
00:16:45
Speaker
um communicated to Anna that he prefers to be called D-man, although Anna throughout the documentary is saying demand, which is insane to me. But D-man is a nickname that Derek had had prior to meeting Anna. He had gotten it from a teacher who had been a huge force in his life, someone who had helped him learn to walk.
00:17:09
Speaker
um So he had called him Deman in school, and then Derek communicated through the Neo that that's what he prefers to be called.
Anna's Influence and Personal Dynamics with Derek's Family
00:17:20
Speaker
So instead of saying that, Anna just called him Deman through the rest of it, and everyone in Anna's world calls him that as well. um But he apparently supplied that information and his mother corroborated it.
00:17:34
Speaker
um And then another interesting thing on the same vein is that Sharonda Jones becomes Derek's tutor at school in college, and she's not taking the classes, but she's helping to facilitate his typing communication for all of the homework. So I just, you know, it's not, it's hard to,
00:18:01
Speaker
I don't want to jump too far ahead, but I just think that those are important. Important. No, I agree with you. um I totally agree with you. And it's hard not jumping ahead for people who haven't watched the documentary yet because it's all going to come out confusing as we go. And I felt back and forth so many times watching this that I also kind of want to talk about it in the way that it was presented because I feel like I agree. It's complex. It's a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so keep those things in mind. but yes Right now we're in like summer 2011 to give people like the timeframe. Right. And Anna is starting to make comments about Derek demand demand
00:18:49
Speaker
however you want to refer to him, um, as being an intellectual, insightful, curious, um, a good communicator. She tells people that they've become really good friends. But my first reaction when she starts talking about him like that, I'm like, okay, she's getting a little bit of a crush. Like what, and that could be anywhere from, I like that proud, like,
00:19:19
Speaker
coach maybe? I don't know. But then it just started to feel like crush-like. I don't know. There was this weird like facial expression she had that I couldn't really decide which way I wanted to go.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yes, so there's a point where Anna is talking about how she was attending a class with him and um she was kind of editing what she thought he should be saying. And he was frustrated with that and said, never ever do that again. um But when she's retelling the story, her face is glowing and she's just like beaming, like she's obsessed with him and that he's pushing back and they have this little dynamic.
00:20:06
Speaker
And it's, I guess, friendly is another way to look at it. But I also had some like, ooh, kind of. Right. And I did go into this with no spoilers, like prior to watching it, I'd never heard of this case. Neither of us had. Yeah, which is surprising. I was like, while they were getting chummy. Yeah, considering. Considering the time frame and where we both were, like, it's very interesting that neither of us had ever heard of it, because it did make pretty big news. i But yeah yeah, so she started to continue pushing him and all of a sudden now he's on panels and in discussions and giving presentations as being like kind of a ah case study more or less of like success. And one of these panels that he is going on is like a question and answer.
00:21:01
Speaker
And one question was, what were his goals? He talked about an academic, wanting to achieve that things academic and kind of becoming independent. And then another question was in relation to his love life. If he aspired to be in a relationship, get married, fall in love, and per Anna, his response to that was that that's he would like that, but that's not something that happens for people like him.
00:21:32
Speaker
And that's where we see that switch of Anna and her response is that she wanted to tell him that he could have that love with her, like instantaneous. And she just didn't now know how to approach it. Keeping in mind, she's still married, still with her kids, right and still a professor, yeah still a two person of care.
00:22:00
Speaker
who a person in an authoritative role who has built this family's trust over the course of a year. um to the point where they're traveling with her to these conferences, these panels. And Daisy, Derek's mom, is driving them around. And this is also when Anna starts taking starts expressing a lot of opinions on Derek's behalf, is how I would like to phrase it. yeah She is essentially saying that Daisy is an overbearing mother. Being too motherly. and
00:22:40
Speaker
I'm sorry, cut the apron strings. It when they started telling me is I got very defensive and then they kind of pivot to john and john just angry and I completely resonated with them because if you have this mother who literally is dedicated her life to her son, and the reality that she was living was he is never going to be fully independent. And you are going to be raising your child for the rest of your natural life. And then having someone come in and telling them that it's all for nothing. And he would be better off if you let him do more things. And he's independent, not living with him 24 seven, not feeding him changing his diaper, not doing all these things. And
00:23:40
Speaker
Remembering the time that she had raised them was the 80s, where there was a issue with single family households, particularly in the African American community. And there was a lot of push where women weren't going to be able to be good moms and African American women couldn't teach their sons certain things. And due to the father's absence, there was going to be issues. And I think that systemic underlying issues, then you have, unfortunately, this white woman coming in saying you're not doing a good job and you're not a good mom, and you're being too overbearing, really just, it if she meant to or not, I think it hit a lot more nerves than she originally intended. Absolutely, I think that,
00:24:36
Speaker
it would be impossible to ignore race in this documentary. I mean, the family definitely brings it up. It's literally a subject that Anna taught on, on a collegiate and doctoral level. um And I think that it had a huge impact in at least the way that they perceived her and they perceived her help and her criticisms. um I think that it has a vibe of white supremacy, but it also, I think
00:25:07
Speaker
Somehow we always blame women. in that scenario where it's like, well, single mothers, you know they can't they can't b they can't be successful parents on their own. And it's like, well, why are they on their own? It's because a man left. She had a man. He left when things got hard. It's not Daisy's fault. How dare you judge her or her parenting when she has been through so much and she, like you said, she is changing her grown son's diapers. She's feeding him by hand. She's bathing him.
00:25:40
Speaker
He is unable to care for himself. And now this woman, this older white woman in a position of authority, who's a wife, who's a mother, who has studied her whole life on disability and race, is coming in and saying that you're doing everything wrong. um That Derek is a vegetarian, that he doesn't like beer, that he doesn't like gospel music, all of these opinions that he wanted to express his whole life, but he couldn't until Anna showed up.
00:26:10
Speaker
So I mean, yeah, so I see where it really dark, it starts getting icky, and they start getting uncomfortable attention to start rising um as a collective group for the four of them. However, during this time on the side, keep in mind, Anna and Derek are having a lot of one on one time together. And yes,
00:26:38
Speaker
Eventually, she tells him that she loves him.
Revelation of Anna and Derek's Relationship
00:26:44
Speaker
And per her account, Derek said, I love you too. And then asked for her to kiss him. And she did. Multiple times. Yes, yeah and those things were typed into the Neo through Anna's help.
00:27:08
Speaker
And yeah, so that's when their dating relationship, I guess, began, where as opposed to just being teacher and student and then becoming friends, now that now there's a romantic component as well, a physical relationship as well, which they are not um telling everyone immediately about. Anna is kind of sneaking around and she is alone.
00:27:37
Speaker
with um she is alone with Derek and they wanted to practice kissing which was very difficult for him physically because he can't control his body movements um and then apparently he you know asked to touch her breasts asked her to take her clothes off you know things ensued um and They apparently did have, I don't know what word I want to use for it. I was going to say half sex, but I don't know. The words they used in the documentary were made love, which I feel more uncomfortable with. I feel very icky about all of it. Yes.
00:28:25
Speaker
ah Even describing that, I feel kind of ill. like yeah just I'm gonna use they had sex just because of what comes okay from now on. um Because what happens in the future and also we don't have Derek, unfortunately again, he is nonverbal and we are going off transcripts that are typed out. So we don't necessarily have him being able to verbalize the same thing. yeah Um, right. And it's her saying to, to the family. Cause though, again, like they have been doing all this in secret and then eventually they all sit down at a table and Anna tells the family that the two of them are in love. They have
00:29:21
Speaker
I think they said consummate in their relationship, which also feels icky. Had sex and that she wanted to build a life with him. And yeah I think Daisy was just in shock. John had to literally get up and walk away because he was so angry.
00:29:45
Speaker
which, to be honest, furious would have been my reaction. I'd be like, I need to i need to walk away. Oh my god. Oh my god. my god.
00:29:56
Speaker
oh and It's just like so horrible. like He's the one that introduced them. so I'm sure he has so many complicated feelings about this. and John asked them if they were using protection. John is furiously stomping off. Daisy said she thought he went to throw up. like He just was spiraling, which I agree would have been my reaction as well. and o Obviously, Anna ended up leaving the house.
00:30:28
Speaker
um Anna's account is that Daisy gave her a hug and said that they're going to work it all out. Daisy, however, never mentioned anything of the sort. Daisy's interpretation is she was sitting on her hands being like, excuse me, would you just say? So her telling the story, I can't imagine her then hugging this woman afterwards. But again,
00:30:52
Speaker
But also, I think that Daisy was having a lot of conflicted feelings, because despite how Derek had been up until about a year before, over this last year, she had been told repeatedly how much Derek had how much cognitive ability he really had, that he actually is has the mind of an adult, that actually he's very, very intelligent and he wants to do all of these things for himself and he has a lot of strong opinions. And actually he's a college student and he has like this whole life now. So I don't know if I'm Daisy, my immediate reaction would be very complex because
00:31:41
Speaker
While I would be very upset, I think that Anna had infiltrated and betrayed my trust in a way, I would also maybe on some level be happy for my son and be hopeful that he actually is loved and in love with this woman who actually wants what's best for him and she's helped him in so many ways and opened up the entire world for him. And I could imagine that
00:32:11
Speaker
maybe you'd be kind of happy about it. You wouldn't initially be furious. Like if you truly believe that Derek is hes has his full cognitive ability, that's where I was really struggling. If Derek has this full cognitive ability and he's just physically disabled, then is it so terrible for him to be with Anna? And is it just that she's in an authority position?
00:32:39
Speaker
Or is it, right you know what I mean? like This is where I really started to contemplate these things. Yeah. And and i I agree with you. I kind of go back and forth. I think from visually seeing Derek, I resonate a little bit more with the anger side of it. Because I think even though John did introduce them, I think he was always skeptical of it.
00:33:09
Speaker
ah And having that skepticism was difficult for him as an academic, because this is a little jump, but he did mention that there was all this amazing success happening with Anna. But part of the FC is being able to do it with other people. So they would try doing it with Daisy, they would try doing it with John, working with Derek. And when he would be with his family trying to communicate, it was impossible. Nothing, there was never success. So I think he had this struggle of not totally being on board. While Daisy, I think, like you said, has that motherly like wanting the best for her son. And I think John had the academic brain of
00:34:07
Speaker
he he had his doubts, and this was just kind of confirming more that like things were good.
00:34:15
Speaker
Well, I think for John, he probably felt like, well, maybe Anna's just better at this or something, and she's able to communicate with him in this way that I'm not able to. But then when she tells you that she's having sex with him, you're like, oh, well,
00:34:35
Speaker
if she's having sex with him, should she be the only person that he can communicate through? Right. And isn't that really convenient for her that the only person that he can talk to or through is Anna? And I guess Sharonda the tutor because it seems like only Anna and Sharonda were really having this ability to facilitate communication with Eric on any kind of consistent basis. There was some stuff where he could like Maybe he pointed out some pictures correctly.
00:35:08
Speaker
umm not There's mixed accounts, I feel, of that. But he definitely, there's nobody else that was able to type with him other than Anna and Sharonda. So his family, yeah, they weren't able to. So all the communication they had with him was through Anna and when she wasn't there, they were unable to communicate with him. Which would also give you pause.
00:35:31
Speaker
like mom, John, ha, like he would smack the fridge and he was hungry. It was things like that, that they learned their own type of communication, but it wasn't the standard communication that Anna was presenting to the family. yeah And this is when John starts to become extremely skeptical and starts really looking into it. And I think here too, the family was like, we need to take a break. We need to evaluate.
00:36:00
Speaker
what's happening. And there was some phone communication between Anna and Daisy. John started kind of looking into it more, again, academic side, found a frontline documentary about FC. And basically, this documentary was more exposing it for being harmful.
Legal Actions and Investigations
00:36:25
Speaker
And the facilitators were manipulating the responses and even sexually abusing persons in their care due to their ability to manipulate the situation. And I think that was
00:36:42
Speaker
also considering the circumstance very concerning for him and he ended up going to the dean of the school out of concern against Anna because Anna is now can't communicate directly and is reaching out to other aides in Derek's life trying to coordinate access to him which is like a huge red flag
00:37:08
Speaker
yeah I mean, she's calling and saying, I will sign my name in blood to whatever you want. I will commit to leaving my husband. I want to start a life with Derek like we belong together. She is contacting Daisy. She's speaking to John. She's speaking to professors and aides trying to get contact with Derek.
00:37:30
Speaker
and John is flipping out because he feels that Anna is a predator. And he, I mean, he's just really emotionally struggling. I felt really terrible for him. I felt like he was like super compelling. And he really went through. I mean, yeah, he really went through a lot in this episode. I can't imagine. Oh, it was awful. And so when he went to the Dean,
00:38:00
Speaker
about Anna, that they were absolutely shocked, disbelieved, like she's, it was nothing that anyone ever would have thought for her character. And more or less told him he needed to get an attorney immediately. And from here, we kind of see the introduction of the segue to more criminal actions.
00:38:26
Speaker
um Anna and Daisy have another phone call because remember they had intermittent communication for a couple of weeks, but nothing consistent. Anna definitely was the one pushing it. um And during one of these conversations, she Daisy starts kind of addressing Anna like, hey, you know what? This is the situation. i but Help me wrap my head around it.
00:38:53
Speaker
how many times have you guys had sex? Where were you? What what what happened? And trying to get information and and is describing it kind of just like it felt weird talking and to the mother of the man you're romantically involved with but anything to make it make them better and make them happen like how to like how to get access back to Derek. So she listening to this recording, she poured her heart out about all of the details. They had physically had sex on two separate Sundays um on yoga mats or towels in the office. And at the end of the conversation, unannounced to Anna in that moment, the police actually had facilitated that phone call.
00:39:45
Speaker
where they had coached Daisy on, hey, bring up these conversations. We need to get this recorded. We need to have evidence. And they're starting an investigation.
00:39:56
Speaker
And. Exactly. um Personally listening to the phone call, like Daisy did a great job for someone who has a lot of emotions going on right now. um I think she did really well. She handled herself very well considering the topic of conversation.
00:40:14
Speaker
to be able to get all of that information for the police. I think she did great. I agree. I found her performance really convincing. um And if I was Anna, I would have probably believed it too, especially since they had talked and it hadn't all been terrible. and Not every phone call was terrible. um But I think that and I think Anna was very much still hoping to win Daisy over at that point. So Yeah, like I think Daisy would have been an incredible actress. Right? It was a very good performance. She did very good. Yeah. um And so from here, you know, yeah, spring 2021 was all I was going to say. So we're kind of they are moving quickly. Moving quickly.
00:41:09
Speaker
so Wait, we're in spring 2021? Mm-hmm, when the police the department kind of started getting involved is what I had. I thought it was 2015.
00:41:27
Speaker
I thought 2015 was when her court case started. No, 2011 is when the investigation began, not 2021, I don't think. 2011, is that not what I said? Oh, you said 2021.
00:41:41
Speaker
Oh, well, guys, my bad. Apparently, I can't speak. Well, I said, well, I said 2015. So what do I know? 2011. We're doing great, guys. We all need another cup of coffee. I was just like, I was like, Whoa, that's so recent. Sorry.
00:42:03
Speaker
um Anyway, minus my terrible dyslexia. Anyway, we have um No, it's okay. In the Rutgers parking lot, prosecutors, investigators show up and kind of surprise Anna, because she had classes that afternoon, but she was there in the morning for some reason, met her in the parking lot, which I thought was like kind of creepy. like Did they follow her to work? That's my only guess.
00:42:31
Speaker
And she gets in the car with this we random people who just claim to be prosecutors, just hops in the car. Like what? So weird. So weird. I mean, she was totally called off guard and she had no idea what it was about until she was told, which is interesting. Yeah, she assumed it was one of her students that they wanted to talk about until they started asking questions about that.
00:43:01
Speaker
I mean, the confidence. One thing about Anna is exactly. She really, I mean, she sticks to her story. It's pretty crazy.
00:43:14
Speaker
But so she gets questioned. It's by prosecutors and then by the police, right? Right. The prosecuting investigators, not the attorneys. Right. Right, exactly. And then there's a search warrant at her house, and her husband is there. And then she gets suspended from Rutgers.
00:43:37
Speaker
and her life is basically falling apart. um And her her husband is there when the warrant is served, which I can only imagine how that situation
Community Reaction and Legal Proceedings
00:43:50
Speaker
went down. I wonder what they told him.
00:43:53
Speaker
Like, do they have to tell you what the warrant's for? Like, what the charges are related? Or do you just say you have a search warrant for your house? Most warrants have it on there. um They might not explicitly tell him, like, this is it, but all he's got to do is read the warrant. um And it would have come out. However, side note, what I did find online that was not in the documentary is her husband was aware of the relationship with Derek.
00:44:23
Speaker
And im I was shocked that this is something that didn't come up. um They had been in couples counseling directly talking about Anna and Derek's relationship. And the therapist apparently told Anna that she needed to stop dwelling on Derek. So I don't think he was in that much of a shock, but I think a shock of like, oh, it's escalating to this point.
00:44:52
Speaker
So he knew about Derek. Like, oh heebie jeebies, honestly. um Also, they start, the police start contacting people that Anna works with. And one of the professors that taught Derek, Karen Moore said that she didn't think D-man was actually participating in the class at all and that he never really seemed to be doing anything himself and that she thought Anna was doing everything for him because that's who came to the classes with him. here And when Miss Jones was talked to, the it came out that she might not have been in the class, but her roommate was taking the same class.
00:45:42
Speaker
Because I think it was pointed out a lot that, oh, well, she wouldn't know what was happening because she wasn't in the class. But turns out her roommate was. So if they're friends of roommates, all she's got to do is communicate a little bit about what the class is about. She even said that um her roommate basically wrote the same things that Derek wrote. And it's like, well, how do you know what your roommate wrote for their class?
00:46:10
Speaker
Right. Who's reading their roommates papers in college? Exactly. But maybe if I was helping somebody and I was tutoring them, I would read someone else's papers. Maybe. Which then supports the idea of how much of this was him versus the facilitators.
00:46:33
Speaker
oh Right. Right. So during the investigation, um Howard, Shane, Sean, not quite sure, was brought in as an expert witness, who was also the same guy who did the frontline documentary, which I thought was kind of cool. Right. So he's, he's the one that did that um experiment, that test, where he showed the the facilitator one picture and the and like quickly flipped to show the subject a different picture so that the facilitator thought they were shown the same picture and they would end up typing what the facilitator saw and not what the subject saw. um And then when Derek was independently assessed, he was unable to communicate in any way.
00:47:28
Speaker
Yeah, his results came out to be six to 12 months of capacity, unable to communicate of a device of any kind. He could physically do it, but did not have the intellectual ability to do so. Again, kind of supporting all of the medical records that Derek had historically. And contradictory to what Anna had been saying.
00:47:52
Speaker
right, essentially confirmed the brain damage that he had related to his cerebral palsy and seizures, which Anna said basically was not accurate for the last two years year. um But yeah, it definitely lined up with everything else. And this is when Daisy is really calling Anna a rapist for the first time, um which i I think so, right? Is it okay to ask you here what you think before this goes any further? I think at this point, I still felt very icky. And I was trying to my instincts were because I never want this to happen to anybody in these circumstances, particularly people who aren't able to communicate what happens to them.
00:48:48
Speaker
So like like instincts were like, I just don't want it to be true. like um But the reality is at this point, it has been deemed pretty clear that Derek's unable to consent to what happens to him. And if you can't consent, that means any kind of sexual contact is rape by definition. And he can't consent to having his diaper changed, let alone consenting to sexual activity. So she's not wrong in the legal sense of the word.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm inclined to agree. I think that he's unable to consent. And I think that she was just talking to herself. I don't, I don't think that I think she was just, I think that the facilitator does not realize how much they are influencing the communication and Anna really fooled herself and communicated with herself. I think she believes it. I was just gonna say, I i truly believe that Anna thinks that she loved him and they were in love and that you he was communicating these things to her.
00:50:16
Speaker
but I don't think that it was him. And at this point in the documentary, I kind of, I had been doing that way for a while, but I think he probably has some kind of capacity, but at the same time, like not to the degree that she had convinced herself of. What do you think it's six to 12 months?
00:50:38
Speaker
I tend to lean towards the toddler, like the early toddler ones that have been kind of noted here and there because you have moments that he is able to, from his family's testimony of saying words like mom or smacking the table if he's hungry or doing certain things to communicate in his own way that a six month year old I don't think, again, I don't have a six month year old, but I feel like one or two can communicate in their own way that the family had been relying on for so long. So right I don't think, I think six months is young for what he had, because also like contextually, I don't know. I feel like
00:51:38
Speaker
maybe it was more like 18 months or even two years, but I definitely don't think it was 22 or 25 or whatever. so yeah was adult absolutely I think maybe he has points where he's a little bit more lucid than other times. It had been described in the documentary that he had periods of listlessness and periods of more participation and I think that maybe sometimes he had a little bit more of an ability to communicate, but I agree. I don't think that he had i don't think he could read or write, essentially. so and If you can't read or write, then everything with the typing is fake.
00:52:21
Speaker
and i think with That's where I'm stuck. yeah with that in mind which is why all of the communications from FC were actually deemed not able to be used as evidence, couldn't be used in her defense. So the jury and the court actually never heard a lot of that testimony because it wasn't at the standard of admissibility for evidence. And I think if- Yeah, it was really interesting. Yeah, I think the original case, if that had been there,
00:52:57
Speaker
it would have maybe changed some stuff. ah Daisy did walk Derek through the courtroom, which I also felt a little icky about just because he's a human being, he's not a prop. And right they did bring this on the documentary and I completely agree where like, it was used more as a tactic to show the jury how disabled he was. And I see why they did it. I understand because you want a lot of people don't have personal histories with people with that severe of a disability. So it helps see the visual see who they're talking about. But at the same time, I do think they could have just shown a video I don't think they necessarily needed to parade him around a courtroom to do that. But it's my opinion.
00:53:51
Speaker
I was I was thinking about what would have been better a video is a good idea because I was thinking about like if he was just sitting in the courtroom would have been less less of a spectacle a spectacle and would have been like less offensive maybe but I don't know if it would have because he can't testify and it's not like a rape victim just sits in the courtroom the entire trial right they're only there if they testify um Or I don't know, are the would that be appropriate for him to be sitting in the courtroom? It depends on the case, depends on how they approach it. um A lot of victims have the right to be there, ah but the testimony thing does come into that gray area. And for him, he isn't going to testify, so he he could be. But at the same time, I think what they wanted to show was his and his mobility issues.
00:54:50
Speaker
because he couldn't just stand up, walk over, lay down and have sex like a normal person. There was going to be a lot more involved in that. And John testified during the documentary, not during, I don't know if it came up at the trial or not, but one time when he was changing his brother's diaper, there were abrasions on his back and nobody knew where they were from. The family didn't know, the school didn't know. And after the fact, he kind of put together that she had to have been on top of him during this because of his disability. And oh her actions left scars on his body due to
00:55:41
Speaker
He used his smaller statue and his ability inability to kind of control things.
Anna's Conviction and Sentencing
00:55:48
Speaker
So, um... I'll give everybody a guess. Which is a horrifying image. um They thought that he got hurt at his day center. They were trying to figure it out. ah Horrific. Horrific. So, give everybody one big guess. She was found guilty.
00:56:11
Speaker
Yeah. In January 2016, she was sentenced, um ah found guilty of two counts of first degree abrogated, abrogated assault of a person physically helpless or mentally incapacitated, charged with 12 years in prison to run concurrently and then upon release being paroled for life. And John made a victim witness ah impact statement. And then her husband wrote in a letter to give an impact statement. And her husband's one for me was kind of stuck out saying that his perception of her is that she's a pathological liar, a narcissist, and she will manipulate to get what she wants, which kind of
00:57:02
Speaker
goes in with it. ticket I definitely think it had, it played a role on the, on the sentencing. um I mean, he completely turned on her for sure, and divorced her, of course. um And yeah, I think he helped get her locked up, at least temporarily. Yeah. Again, side research, he actually um found when he realized that Anna was completely out and didn't want to be in the relationship with him anymore, he actually started providing the Johnsons with documentation to help their case on the DL. So he absolutely was, I think, mortified with his wife's behavior. And when he realized how bad it was, yeah, but I don't think I think he was in denial. I don't think he realized how bad it was until things kind of came to light.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yes, I agree with that for sure. I think he thought that she had an obsession with Derek, not that she was a full blown rapist. Right. And yeah.
00:58:09
Speaker
And if he has a six to 12 month capacity, then everything she's been saying is bonkers. And she's either a liar or she's completely delusional. And either way, I would want her locked up if I was him. I think that he had all the motive in the world for her her to get locked up because then he gets the house, he gets the kids, the divorce is not going to be contested. He gets everything because she's going to go to prison because she is a creep. Yeah. And she's gonna lose everything, which she basically does. um I was a little annoyed that she got out later on appeal. She only did like two years. Yeah, so she did do two years. She was released in 2018. Because she put an appeal and basically arguing that the FC records should have been being able to be presented as evidence.
00:59:07
Speaker
And because they weren't presented, they couldn't be cross-examined. Therefore, she won her appeal. um In exchange for the appeal, she pled guilty to a lesser charge, so third degree, aggressive criminal sexual conduct, and released for the two years that she had already served. Which I will say does put her on the sex offender registry, which i makes me feel a little better.
00:59:35
Speaker
because i'm glad about that I am shocked that there wasn't some kind of sexual charge originally. She had aggravated assault which is great. It has a higher incarceration time which I think is why they did it. But after 12 years she'd be released and no one would know really what she did. At least now she has a sex charge which affiliates with Megan's law which requires her to be registered so people will know what her actual crime was.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yes, I mean that is, I guess that's a small comfort. um I like the idea that she won't be able to teach. I'm hoping that that stays true forever because right now she's definitely not teaching. She has like a work from home job where nobody knows who she is. Anytime this comes up in the press She gets a ton of hate. She's gotten fired from waitressing jobs because, I mean, nobody wants to be associated with her or what she did. um But she's still living in a cute little house on West Orange, and I think she should have done more time. I'm just gonna say it. I was annoyed with the outcome of this. um I was happy to see, though, that there was a civil case. Did you see that?
01:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't go too far into that. um What is the civil case on? So the the Johnsons sued the so like sued Anna, and they got $4 million dollars in a settlement. That's good. I don't know if they're actually able to collect any of that, but how does that work? They probably won't get all of it, but they'll get some of it, I'm sure. And because like restitution- Do her wages get garnished?
01:01:34
Speaker
probably would be the best off to it. And I hope so. I agree. Like I'm glad because that'll go towards his care and because Derek in 2018 was 40. So math is hard, but he's, he's getting older. Daisy's getting it right. is a pretty thing Listen, we already established this episode. My numbers are great today.
01:02:02
Speaker
um So thank you for that. He could not do 90. So it's still a long time, right? Yeah. And any kind of funds that can help support him, particularly as Daisy is getting older, I think it's important. So I'm glad that that went through. And I'm glad she's under Megan's law, which will restrict her from teaching. It basically will not allow her to be in certain types of career positions and right protects people who are at a higher risk level than the average person. um But what I thought was interesting from an academic side is her justification standards.
01:02:48
Speaker
so Female, at this point, I feel comfortable labeling her as a sex offender. I don't know about you. She is a sex offender. And yeah yeah. And so the justifications of a female sex offender are very different than a male.
Reflection on Anna's Actions and Future Implications
01:03:05
Speaker
And a lot of them kind of categorize into like their perception of the world and their individual needs. And I think she actually falls in both, which is more rare.
01:03:17
Speaker
And she looks at him as if she's teaching him something. She doesn't look at it as harmful. She says it many times that Derek seduced her. All of her actions are motivated by love. And these kind of offenders don't recognize what their actions are as being harmful.
01:03:45
Speaker
And then they can justify it by assuming a higher sexual maturity. So if she is now convincing the family he is intellectually at in his twenties, it's a very easy jump to then say he is of the same sexual maturity. He's above what you believe he is. And that's really common with the people who use more of a personal need justification.
01:04:14
Speaker
in regards to being a sex offender. So I thought that was kind of interesting. And she definitely does make it seem like he pursues her. That's her story, is that he really wanted her and that she gave into it essentially. Right. What really, really concerns me though about her in terms of her being a sex offender and with her still feeling absolutely no remorse about the situation at all. Because I think that it's terrifying that it's years later, it's years after her incarceration, after her trial and conviction, after serving time in prison and having her entire life ruined over this, she still is talking about it like they had this amazing fling. Well, keep in mind, she has justified it all.
01:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, but she has people around her that are supporting that behavior. She has yeah people who are like her mom still doesn't truly think that she's guilty of it. Like she has friends and family and associates that either say that she's right in her evaluation of Derek and if they were in his shoes, they'd rather have this thing and lose it and never have it at all or things like she has. Oh my god, I thought that was crazy. Yeah, she has these voices supporting this behavior. So it's eat how do you she said that was her? Sorry, she said that was her friend that also uses a facilitated communication. So does that mean that Anna was communicated communicating for that person? And that's when they told her that? Because that once again, is Anna just telling herself what she wants to hear?
01:06:05
Speaker
No, I think that was another facilitator, right? Like another person... I thought it was a person that... Oh, I thought it was another person who used a facilitated communicator.
01:06:17
Speaker
I have to, I have to check. I mean, either way, it's either way, but not good. it But her mom also believes in facilitated communication. And so she thinks that Anna just is a star cross lover with Derek, who's totally mentally present, totally cognizant, and that his family is just so horrible and abusive that they're keeping him locked up and pretending that he's mentally challenged. Yeah, which is so so offensive.
01:06:47
Speaker
and wild. And I think that she is still actively a danger to anybody she could manipulate. I think that she could be a predator again. Yeah. And it's interesting when it comes to predators of a sexual nature is, ironically, their recidivism rate is actually really, really low, which Oh, good. I don't want to say it should bring comfort because it's a horrific crime and in order to get caught. But once people are caught prosecuted, the chance of them committing another sexual crime is actually a lot lower than most horrific crimes. So hopefully, it was a, quote, learning experience for her. um But statistically, she isn't likely to do it again.
01:07:44
Speaker
Oh, good. I don't want her to do it again. I also think being a sex offender will keep her out of areas that she would maybe be able to do that again. Yeah, the opportunity. She really shouldn't teach ever again, because I think she is, she is just a classic teacher that sleeps with a student and justifies it to herself. But you put this spin on it of all of this disability and race issue. And Right, because technically he is an adult. Yeah, like age wise, he's an adult, but nothing else is. And he hadn't, and he hadn't been declared mentally incompetent prior to this, because it just hadn't been necessary. But due to this situation, he was declared that way. And so it's he was an adult. ah He is an adult. He currently is an adult. He is a grown man body.
01:08:39
Speaker
but the mind of a baby slash toddler and completely under her control. And yet she still thinks that she did not do anything wrong. I would be ah zero percent is surprised if she describes this when she talks about it like it was a love story. She was just so misunderstood. o Yeah, 100%. And it would be interesting to me eventually if she would ever to open up about her own personal traumas. Because from a sex offender perspective, she didn't follow a lot of the other techniques from like a grooming perspective. She truly believed she fell in love with him rather than the other way around. And having that kind of
01:09:35
Speaker
viewpoint is interesting so it leads me more to what is her personal history and things that were happening prior because if you have a home life where you're not having your sexual needs met that's what lead a lot of people regardless of your gender towards sex crimes which is awful to say but a lot of their justifications and Coupling that with potential sexual trauma of her own if she had a weird dynamic with someone and that's what she understands as normal. like We don't know too much about her history or her husband other than the very, very little information that was talked about. Yeah. I mean, I tried to look him up and I did see that he got remarried.
01:10:30
Speaker
um because they got divorced and he married someone else and they've been married for like they got married in 2021. And i saw their I saw his Facebook and it seems like they have a lot of fun and they go on a long trips together. um But we don't know anything about what their relationship was like or what the problems that she had at home. I am just gonna assume that there were many problems at home and maybe things weren't going that well. And she wasn't fulfilled at home in some sort of way, sexually, emotionally,
01:11:01
Speaker
I don't know, intellectually, all different types of things where she just didn't feel like her husband was a match for her anymore. And she was just able to project everything that she needed onto Derek because he was a blank slate. So I don't know if she does have a history or not of things in her past where she'd been abused or taken advantage of, I wouldn't be surprised. But I think that she just had this opportunity where it's someone who she is in complete control over what he says. And so she chooses subconsciously to make him say all the things that she wishes her husband were saying was saying. Maybe that's a little out there. But that's what I kind of think happened. No, I like it. I personally am not the biggest supporter of like all sex offenders were victims. um But it is a very common theory. I just
01:11:55
Speaker
I've never been able to fully get on board. but So I like that. I think it's probably pretty accurate.
01:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's my best guess of what's going on here. Do you think there's anything we didn't recover? Or do you have final thoughts? No, I think that was the majority of the documentary. I think I'm, I'm personally I'm upset that she was let out of prison, but I am happy that she now has a sex crime charge because it will restrict her from being able to get into other positions that potentially could have other victims or cause harm to another person. So yeah I think that's that's good. And don't get me wrong. like
01:12:49
Speaker
I have mixed feelings with it because honestly having that charge in the outside world is almost just as bad because there are so many restrictions that she's going to have to deal with for the rest of her life that it's basically like being in prison. So I'm not particularly upset with the fact that she's out, I guess now that I'm kind of thinking about it. yeah But only because she has that new charge. If she was just let out in general, I would be a lot more upset. Yeah, I'm just hoping nobody lets her like volunteer as a facilitator or something.
Conclusion and Impact Analysis
01:13:31
Speaker
Because I just feel like if given the opportunity, she could read what she wants to read, hear what she wants to hear.
01:13:39
Speaker
no Well, anybody follows the rules, she won't.
01:13:47
Speaker
Do you think it's totally fake, the facilitated communication? I knew you were going to ask me that. like all i go I go back and forth. I think to a degree, I think it is possible. because But you have to already have the mental intellect of some kind of communication. Because like I have been around a variety of people with different types of disabilities. And there are some that you can tell that they know what you're talking about. They just struggle communicating with it. And people like that, I think there are opportunities that if you can help them in certain ways, but yeah at the same time, I think you have to have that intellect already there. You can't teach that.
01:14:43
Speaker
And if there's you're fully holding their arm and closing their hand, absolutely not. But if you're just kind of like, right there was one video of like they two fingers on a outside of the sleeve to kind of just hold it up that I'm fine with. But if you're holding their hand and moving it, I have a problem.
01:15:06
Speaker
I think that the person also needs to already be able to read or none of it works. like You know what I mean? like Maybe you can't write because your hand shakes a lot or something, but you have to be able to read. Otherwise, you can't spell. You wouldn't know how to use the letters. so I feel like she write somehow went from him not being able to read or write to being in college in a year, which doesn't make any sense, and which is why I know it's all fake in this case. I think maybe if someone
01:15:41
Speaker
like, I'm trying to like if someone had limited range of like limited control over their arms, but they had a full cognitive ability to read and write and they knew letters and they could spell, then maybe they could kind of like
01:16:00
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like if you can't actually point, and yeah, you're right. I think if you can't actually point yourself, then you can't type yourself. Unless you got, what about that eye thing? Isn't there an eye mouse? I've seen videos of that where it's like someone uses their pupil as a mouse.
01:16:19
Speaker
I have also I don't know if that would work. And I think there's like, I went to a school with a girl who had like a keyboard that had phrases already input it. So like she just had to press certain ones to say certain phrases. That was okay. But again, it's you already have the intellect. She was doing it herself. Right. Right. And she cognitively could understand what was happening.
01:16:47
Speaker
Right. I mean, that's just a robot facilitating her communication, essentially, though, a computer, as opposed to a person. And the nice thing about it being a computer is like, it's not gonna have sex with you. Whereas a person yeah can project all of their shit onto you. And then also,
01:17:07
Speaker
I mean, I think what she did is absolutely terrible, but I think that she genuinely does not think that at all, which is the most troubling part to me, is that I've had to reckon with this, but she has not. She got through the whole prison thing and was like, that was... Yeah, I feel way worse about this than she does, because she can justify it to herself and I can't justify it.
01:17:31
Speaker
Oh, this was a roller coaster to watch. I really enjoyed this documentary, but it was insane. I will say yeah, it was a very well done documentary. I did enjoy it. I think um it was one of those that showed a little bit of a balance, which I appreciate, versus just that like one side perspective that you get a lot with documentaries. I think they did a nice job showing both sides and not predetermining your opinion. Right. Exactly. I agree.
01:18:13
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect. All right. Well, do you have any last thoughts?
01:18:20
Speaker
I think I'm good. I agree. Until I'm not smaller. I hope for the best and onto the next one.
01:18:31
Speaker
All righty. Well, we will talk soon. Bye bye. Bye.