Transcript
Speaker: The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members -only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
Speaker: Yet, here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation. Welcome to part two of our conversation with Ben. Let's go ahead and pick up where we left off from last week. It's interesting that they were set against this absolute ruling that you were talking about because of
Speaker: If Hans was born in Germany in 1899, well, he was born under an authoritative ruler then, because Germany was under a king, right? And so that's interesting that it seems like his attitudes had shifted when it came to absolute power and that sort of thing. Maybe I'm wrong here, but he grew up in a monarchial system anyways. But what I'm really curious about is, you mentioned he was at a rally with Hitler
Speaker: It sounded like in the 20s or 30s, but how did his politics change? Was he on various sides? Was he figuring himself out during that interwar period before coming down on this position that we now know him for historically? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker: As far as the King's thing goes, there's a great book called The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman and she has this really interesting scene at the beginning of the book in
Speaker: gets assassinated, a ruler in Austria. So the scene is there are all these kings of all these different countries and kind of people groups, right? So there's the Austro -Hungarian Empire and the British Empire and the German Empire and the Prussian Empire
Speaker: And all of these, a bunch of these kings are kind of riding in a parade at the beginning of this book. And Tuchman basically points out that nothing like this would ever happen again. So World War I was basically the end of kings being rulers over states or nations or countries
Speaker: in the west and what comes after World War I is new systems of, I mean this is ultimately what World War I is about, creating a new system that's based on choice and democracy is a much more important thing, becomes a much more important thing especially in Western Europe. So
Speaker: By the time Hitler comes to power in the 30s, there isn't a king, but more of a somewhat democratically elected leader. These two guys, these pastors in Germany, you mentioned Bonhoeffer and we have Hans here. You mentioned that Hitler at that point and the government was taking stances against the church, proposing ideologies, proposing
Speaker: things that these pastors felt went against their beliefs. I'm curious what exactly those things were because in the early 30s,
Speaker: You know, this is not the 1940s. And so I'm actually not super familiar with how Hitler's agenda and how the government's programs have developed. So what were they specifically opposing at that time? That's a great question. I'll get to that in a second. You also mentioned this kind of Hans being at the same rally as Hitler.
Speaker: and what was all going on. We don't have a lot of writings from him at the time, but I think there were lots of protests and there was a lot of craziness because as these systems of government kind of collapsed, people were trying to figure out, well, what's next? And just like in our day to day, nobody really knows
Speaker: In their day, they didn't know what would happen. They certainly didn't know that World War II was coming. And so I think a lot of the citizens of the country were just trying to figure out liberalism, conservatism. There were a whole bunch of new movements popping up. And so one of the big movements popping
Speaker: Well, some of the big movements popping up had to do with liberalism. So being much more open in matters of sexuality, in matters of substances, lots of experimentation with drugs and alcohol. And there were people that were definitely advocating for a really open system.
Speaker: There were a lot of communist Marxists that were advocating for a centralization of government that would kind of
Speaker: bring power to the lower classes of people. He certainly had capitalists buying for capitalism above all else. And so Hitler comes in and he really doesn't like liberalism. He really hates the big problems in society are kind of raging liberalism. He imposes a number of laws on
Speaker: homosexuality and his big thing that probably most people know about is he takes some very defined stances against the Jewish people as a race. So there's a, it was called the Jewish paragraph and it was a paragraph that was inserted basically into the Constitution that said anybody that is of known Jewish race of any kind of
Speaker: If your parents or grandparents or great -grandparents were known as Jews, you would not be allowed to be in any government position. For us today, we think, oh, a government position, there's a few people
Speaker: Back in those days, the government in Germany had oversaw all pastors and all official church workers. They oversaw a lot of who owned businesses. And so this really cut through every level of society. Imagine if in America you just said anybody of a certain ethnicity
Speaker: is no longer able to do any of those jobs anymore, how tumultuous that would be. For example, if somebody said,
Speaker: about that, or if you're of Hispanic origin, you automatically lose all of your, lose your job. You cannot work any longer. That was the kind of tumultuous thing that was going on. And Hans's wife was Jewish. She had
Speaker: some Jewish ancestry. And so that was a challenge for his wife. He himself was not officially deposed for those reasons because he spoke out against this theologically, especially as it was imposed on the church and on people who serve in the church. That really began to draw attention to Hans. And so
Speaker: He starts getting put in prison. He, he gets eventually gets gets fired from his from his role in the in the university in 1933 and so then
Speaker: He eventually starts a little seminary much like Dietrich Bonhoeffer does in Finkenwalde. Hans starts kind of his own little teaching seminary and he's just trying to continue to keep the name of Jesus out there even as he's trying his best to
Speaker: to give his opinions on what he thinks should happen and why theologically he had such significant problems with, for example, the Jewish paragraph. So that's really what intrigues me. What was he taking a stance against? There were some Christians that basically said, hey, we like Hitler. He's kind of cleaning up Germany.
Speaker: He's on our side, some Christians thought, because he was against some things that Christians had said are really not helpful, are sinful. And so they thought that, some people thought, some Christians thought that Hitler was on their side. And there was a growing kind of anti -Jewish sentiment, anti -Semitic sentiment among a lot of Christians, unfortunately,
Speaker: that had been brewing for a long while in Germany. But so these Christians, especially theological leaders, began to say, if Hitler says something, it is our responsibility to follow him, and we should not, under any circumstances, push back or criticize
Speaker: the ruler, the Fuhrer. And you can imagine anybody that's gone through confirmation and has studied Luther's small catechism and especially studied the fourth commandment, honor your father or mother, knows that Luther interprets the command, honor your father and mother, to mean you should really obey all authority. And so that included the government.
Speaker: Of course, a simplistic reading of that would say, well, we have to honor Adolf Hitler because he is making laws and so we just have to do what he says, but I don't think that that's not necessarily what a simplistic reading is, I think.
Speaker: not what Luther meant by that. Luther was quite aware of the passages in the New Testament where the apostles say things like, we must obey God rather than man. So when rulers told Christians that they weren't allowed to speak the name of Jesus in the book of Acts, the apostles pushed back against those leaders.
Speaker: They disobeyed those leaders, even, you know, whether that was the breaking of the fourth commandment or not, they said, when it comes down to it, we have to obey God rather than man. And so Hans was really torn about this. Nobody, I mean, Bonhoeffer was as well. Bonhoeffer thought it was a sin, basically, that he was pushing back against
Speaker: against Hitler. It's obvious to us now on this side of history, but Bonhoeffer and Hans, they saw it as their duty to essentially stand up with the apostles and say, no, no, we have to obey God rather than man. And so then they had to articulate reasons why sometimes it's okay for Christians to stand up to the government and to speak
Speaker: one's mind, not in a flippant way or not in a mean, hate -filled way, not in a partisan politics like we have Republicans and Democrats today. It's not just take the side of one over against the other. This is a we must obey God, not man kind of thing.
Speaker: And so, is it okay? Must Christians do that? And Hans and Dietrich Bonhoeffer both said, yeah, there are times where Christians have to stand up and speak their minds. Was there a particular line or a moment that they said, we just cannot go with what this guy's saying anymore? I think it was essentially when Hitler started telling the church what it could and could not do.
Speaker: especially when Hitler began to remove people from office, when he began to tell the church that kind of what its talking points are. Martin Luther also pushed back against some people in authority. We know that he said
Speaker: probably accurate he says here I stand I can do no other and he says that to the the Emperor the the leader of the Holy Roman Empire where's the line I think it's it's any time where a ruler would speak against the Word of God and and what what Hans really wants to do is create a theology that that speaks to society and speaks to
Speaker: things going on in the government. And I think Hans agrees with Luther that theology is just saying what God says and Christians ought to always be able to say they are hearing and what they are seeing as they encounter the scriptures, as they encounter Christ, as they're moved to proclaim Jesus.
Speaker: in our world today, that talking about Jesus can't be banned. So Christians should stand up for their neighbor and they should speak theologically about what the Bible says that we are to do and what we are not to do. We should push back on anybody that tells us we can't talk about our faith and what the Bible says. I'm reminded of
Speaker: Martin Luther King's really connected what he was doing to those eighth century prophets who were calling out the kings of Israel and saying, you quit with the injustice quit with the evil. Right. I mean, that is how much of the Old Testament is
Speaker: is the people of God calling out the governments for doing things they shouldn't be doing. But here's a question I've really wanted to get to. So these German pastors, you said that the line for them was when Hitler started coming in and basically ordering the church around. And so they were in this position of, OK, now his positions are affecting us in our jobs. And sometimes in life, right,
Speaker: The things that are going wrong don't affect you until they affect you or they don't spur you onto movement until they affect you personally. Um, I'm wondering for these guys, or maybe more importantly, I'm actually wondering for us. We are told a lot of times since we have a vote in this country that we see our role as voting for us and voting for ourselves and voting for our values first and foremost.
Speaker: Nothing wrong with that. But what is the point when your neighbor's values stir you to vote more than your own values, or not even your neighbor's values, your neighbor's humanity and your neighbor's needs? I think I'm so used to seeing a Christian's voice in government being used to support Christian things, which are good, right? It's good to support the stuff that we support, but
Speaker: What do we do when the person being affected first and foremost is our neighbor and we're kind of doing okay? There's this great story that Jesus tells, right? That a certain man was going down or going up to Jerusalem and
Speaker: And he gets beat up by some bad dudes. I know this one. I do. I know this one. It's a different story, right? I think it's still one of the most well -known stories of the New Testament because we even have laws in America that are named after it, right? We have the Good Samaritan law.
Speaker: which essentially means, hey, if you stuck out somebody on the side of the road that's in trouble and you do your level best, you probably shouldn't be punished for trying to help your neighbor. So Jesus tells this story about this guy gets beat up, all these religious people walk past him, right? And then a Samaritan person comes and
Speaker: the Samaritan would have been seen as kind of probably much like what, I don't know, he would have been a very unwelcome guest among some Orthodox Jewish people who were following the ways, strictly following the ways of the Old Testament. And I think Jesus knew that
Speaker: Using the example, making the Samaritan the hero of his story was going to be really offensive. But Jesus asked this question, who of the people that walked past the guy that got beat up, who was the person that showed mercy? And he asked that question, which the obvious answer is this Samaritan, he asked that question because he had been asked the question, who is my neighbor?
Speaker: And I think there's a great philosopher, Yvonne Illich, who talked about the parable of the Good Samaritan. And he said that oftentimes when people preach about the parable of the Good Samaritan, they love to talk about what we should do or how we should help our neighbor. But the real question of that parable is, who is my neighbor?
Speaker: What Christians really need to think about is who is our neighbor, right? The obvious answer of like help our own is not what Jesus was getting at with that parable. Our neighbor is the person that we most fundamentally disagree with. Maybe even the person that we've come to hate because of their position on something or how they voted.
Speaker: or what stance they've taken and we just see their stance as deplorable, that's our neighbor. Pretty counter -cultural. Pretty challenging words, actually. 100%. Yeah. And this guy's not even coming from his neighborhood. I think that's the other thing, is this guy's coming from a whole other country. Across the river is a term we use in St. Louis. And we see our neighbors as those who are on my side of the river, whichever you
Speaker: whichever side of the Missouri River you're on. And I think Jesus would encourage us to see ourselves as
Speaker: being neighbors of even those people that don't live next to you. Or didn't go to your high school. For reference, that is a total St. Louis thing. If you're not from the St. Louis area and you're like, what are you talking about? Yep, that is totally here. Where'd you go to high school? I love it. I think we are just so used to seeing our voice as being for our stuff.
Speaker: And asking what are my neighbors needs, it's got to be in the question. But I don't think it can just be, well, what's best for my neighbor is what's best for me, right? The positions I have, I hold them because they're what's best for my neighbor. I don't know if that's always the attitude to take. The Samaritan, if you think of the Samaritan, it costs the Samaritan a ton of money.
Speaker: And Yvonne Illich points out that the Samaritan was specifically not helping someone of his own ethnicity and wasn't helping someone that was of his own tribe. It not only wasn't going to benefit him, it might even harm him. But Jesus' point is kind of, who is your neighbor? And I think he wants us to think
Speaker: It's really hard sometimes to look them in the eye and say How can I how can I serve you or how can I help you or how can I care for you? I'm just thinking about one very short section of Rodney Stark's book the rise of Christianity and and it's probably a part you've heard before but he talks about specifically the way Christians responded during a time of plague in the Roman Empire and everyone else
Speaker: The pagans and non -Christians moved away. They went to go seek their own safety if they had the money, right? We're going to go out of the cities, out of the towns, and into our private villas, private spaces to protect ourselves. The Christians were the ones that stayed behind at the expense of their own health and safety to provide care for the people that couldn't afford to move away, Christian or pagan.
Speaker: And he ties that in very tightly to being an important reason that the church rose the way it did. That Christians, when faced with a threat to their safety, said, we're not going to move away. We're not going to move out west. There's a St. Louis thing for you to reference. We're not going to move out west. We're going to stay here with our neighbors. And I just
Speaker: very, all I can say is that challenges me and my own set of values, the way they stayed. And these pastors in Germany seem to embody that themselves. Yeah, at one point, Dietrich Bonhoeffer was, was, he came to America, he actually, he actually walked across the campus of
Speaker: That's a story for another day. Bonhoeffer had come to America. He was studying in New York. He had kind of gotten out of Germany, partly for safety reasons, partly for kind of continuing education. And when things really got bad, Bonhoeffer was loving it. He was hanging out with folks in Harlem.
Speaker: He was just so blown away by the faith of the black church and the lively living out of their faith that he saw in Harlem. But when things got really crazy in Germany, he said, I've got to go back because I can't take refuge away from problems.
Speaker: And I think that that's what Hans did. Hans eventually moves to Dortmund, this town, and becomes a pastor. And he gets thrown in jail. And he's in jail for months. And he kind of refuses to give up his position that Hitler and the Nazi regime were evil.
Speaker: And so Kristallnacht the night of happens in 1938 when the Nazi army, the SS troops came in to Jewish homes that broke all that crystal and began putting people in concentration camps. Hans is speaking up then more than ever and
Speaker: and gets thrown in jail because he simply will not stop talking about Jesus and talking about what's right and what's wrong and speaking up for the church, having a right to speak to society.
Speaker: Well, if anyone does want to purchase your $105 book or get a hold of you, Ben, where should we send them? And we'll have this on the show notes at normalgozalongway .com.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean they could send an email to me at houptb at csl .edu, my seminary email address. They could find me on Twitter, at Ben Hout, or at Facebook. I'd love to chat more, answer questions. So yeah, you can put my email address in your
Speaker: We appreciate you coming on and taking so much time with us. And we'll make sure to do that, get that on normalgovelongway .com. And thank you for the history lesson. I know that this was really good for me to hear. And I also was excited that I knew a Bible verse and story. So we will also have that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Ben. Yeah, thank you. It's an honor to be
Speaker: be on the show. Jesus' word is so timely and Jesus, as our Savior, is so timely for just such a time that we're living in now. He has so much forgiveness, so much grace, so much love, so much wisdom.
