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82: YES Moments - Addressing The Ninety-Nine
203 Plays2 years ago
Jill Devine had another YES moment while listening to one of Ryan Pfendler’s recent sermon messages. The YES moment was in reference to a Bible verse Ryan preached about. The Bible verse is Matthew 18: 12.
You access Ryan’s message on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/4Y9q72VZLfY?si=789wJlribKKIjMts
Here are the other Episodes Jill made reference to in this week’s episode:
*BONUS (5b): Going Deeper With Pastor Chuck Schlie
Normal Goes A Long Way Website: https://www.normalgoesalongway.com/
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Normal Goes A Long Way Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Normal-Goes-A-Long-Way-110089491250735
Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
Two Kids and A Career: https://www.jilldevine.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Jill's Faith Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
Conversation with Ryan Finler
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet, here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation. My buddy's back, Ryan Finler. Hey, Jill. Good to be back. How you feeling? I'm good.
Exploring 'Yes Moments' and God Winks
00:00:46
Speaker
Don't lie. I mean, look, reality can save before the mic, but on the mic,
00:00:53
Speaker
Truthfully things are good. Yeah, just full life. You're just busy in your job. Yeah, and it's okay to say that it's okay. I wanted to bring you on for a yes moment and it's kind of different than some of my
00:01:09
Speaker
other yes moments that I've had. We've been learning though in the last three episodes I talked about how I had pigeonholed us into thinking that yes moments only had to take place on Sundays during a sermon and then I explained the yes moments I had while on retreat. So now we have opened up yes moments
00:01:31
Speaker
to everything, because they can happen anywhere and everywhere. I mean, we're back to sermon on this particular one, but also not, and I will explain, but it ties into a sermon that you did called God Winks, and it was specifically the more than a coincidence week three pursuits and passions.
The Role of the Holy Spirit in Life
00:01:55
Speaker
So God Winks, more than a coincidence,
00:01:59
Speaker
I remember one of my best friends explaining what a God wink was, and it's, she said, this man had wrote this book, and he said, it's God's way of being anonymous. Coincidences. And I thought, oh.
00:02:15
Speaker
Are there coincidences or is it God? And that's a whole nother topic, but what are your thoughts on that? The whole God winks, because we did a whole series and it was awesome, but your perspective. Yeah, yeah. If you don't think God still works in your everyday life doing things at particular moments in particular places, then you don't know much about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is still at work in his people today.
00:02:44
Speaker
I will say this, sometimes it's hard to know what the Holy Spirit's doing. Did he introduce me to this person for one reason or did he introduce me to this person for another reason? Did he have me show up at the store and see this person or meet this person for a particular reason? Did he have me show up to church on this particular Sunday to hear this particular message? You don't always know in the moment,
00:03:11
Speaker
normally what happens is reflecting on it later, you'll say, okay, this was God showing up and doing something. And so, we don't just believe in God the Father, like the guy who created the world, we don't just believe in Jesus, we also believe in the Holy Spirit that still works in us and in our world today. And so, all that say God winks happen, these moments where God shows up happen.
00:03:39
Speaker
Or else we'd be left alone and God's like I'm not gonna leave you alone, right? I'm not gonna let you figure it out by yourself I'm gonna have to be there to guide you along the way and so The thing about God wings is on one side right you want them to happen and you you're sometimes maybe you're looking for them and they don't come when you expect them the other side is
00:04:03
Speaker
they come when you don't expect them. And so maybe you were looking for it in one place and you didn't get it and that frustrated you, but then God showed up in a different place where you weren't looking for him. Usually what ends up happening at least with me is I'm like, oh, that was the better place for him to show up. I wanted to show up at this time at this place and in this way, but he showed up later in a different way and it was better. I just talked about that in the last episode, recapping my retreat.
Misunderstandings of the Holy Spirit
00:04:33
Speaker
Of course, you want it to be where you want it to be, but then when you start to journal and you start to reflect and you start to just really keep your eyes open, then you're like, okay, now I see. Now I see what's happening here.
00:04:49
Speaker
I want to go back a minute for the Holy Spirit conversation because there's been a big joke happening with some of our coworkers and people around us. They always say, Jill's friend, the Holy Spirit. I love the Holy Spirit. And I remember having this conversation with Pastor Chuck. I'll link the episode in the show notes, but it was about God the Father, God the Son,
00:05:17
Speaker
God the Holy Spirit. And he was like, the Holy Spirit is a mystery. I can't even wrap my head around it. And I thought for a second, I go, I think I said to him, like, well, I feel like I know the Holy Spirit better than I know God the Father and God the Son. And I don't know what it is, but I have also heard that some people just don't like to talk about the Holy Spirit. And I,
00:05:43
Speaker
I love him. I feel like he just does things that you just can't explain. So I appreciate the Holy Spirit. Very much so. Yeah. What do you think people don't like about the Holy Spirit and these people you were mentioning? Maybe it's because it's like a ghost. I don't know. You think they don't like them or they just don't think about them? Maybe that. I feel like it's
00:06:13
Speaker
not thinking about it. Because if you show up on a Sunday to most churches, we're gonna preach about, well, Jesus first and foremost. And we'll probably call out to God, the Father at some point, maybe. But not everybody talks about the Spirit. But the Spirit doesn't come up much. And I understand why, because the Spirit is the more mysterious,
00:06:40
Speaker
One, you know, a lot of the Trinity. And so it's hard to like preach about a mystery because the point of something being a mystery is, believe it or not, it's a mystery. But so is God in Jesus in a way. More God than Jesus, but. That's true. We have gospel accounts of Jesus and we have scripture about the Father and we do have scripture about the Holy Spirit. But we have this saying in the church and it's that the Spirit
00:07:11
Speaker
goes when and where it pleases. So it does its own thing in its own way. And that's where I lean into it. Yeah. And so, you know, I just think it does, the spirit doesn't get talked about as much because not to go too much off on a tangent. I think sometimes people misuse it and I've seen it misused and you've probably seen it misused. I mean, you turn on,
00:07:36
Speaker
any televangelist and they're gonna say, I feel like the Holy Spirit is calling you to give my ministry a thousand dollars. So it's the easiest one to manipulate. You can't make God the Father say that, you can't make Jesus say that, but you can try to manipulate people to think the Holy Spirit's doing something for your benefit. And so I've just seen it misused a lot.
00:08:00
Speaker
The other thing, too, is I think a lot of people think they can make the Holy Spirit do something. So if we create a certain space, a certain environment, and do things a certain way, we're going to make the Holy Spirit come down and like, no, the Holy Spirit is present in our churches, but the Holy Spirit also works when and where it pleases, not when and where we, when and where it pleases us.
00:08:24
Speaker
it works when it pleases itself. And so maybe that's why. I think it's, I've seen it be misused, right? The word of the whole history. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. That's the better thing is like, we should still talk about.
00:08:37
Speaker
I feel like I brought this up with Chuck in that episode and I brought it up to a few people and it's one of those things that somebody said something and it really hit me and made sense and I don't know if the impact will be the same for you or the listener but one woman who is in one of my
00:08:54
Speaker
community groups, she explained the Holy Spirit like this. We were talking about worship and how sometimes it's hard for people to just raise their hands and worship music or they feel whatever. And she said, I believe the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He's never going to make you do something that
00:09:19
Speaker
embarrasses you or makes you feel uncomfortable. So if you start to raise your hands and it feels uncomfortable, the Holy Spirit is not gonna move through you. And it really, I don't know why, but that has really hit me and has stuck with me. He is a gentleman. He does not want me to be embarrassed. He will use me
00:09:42
Speaker
as he sees fit and needed. I don't know, does that, I just use me in a good way. I'm thinking about that. In this setting, right, in a church setting when you're worshiping, I think that's true. He's, the Holy Spirit won't make you, and maybe it's our own small view of the Holy Spirit that thinks,
00:10:10
Speaker
Oh, the holy, hands raised or hands not raised is a sign of the Holy Spirit's work. I'm like, actually the Holy Spirit does way bigger things than that. And so, you know, maybe sometimes we make it about that, right? Is this church spiritual? Well, we're gonna judge it based on how many hands are raised and how many people are dancing at worship, right? It's like, well, that's actually small view of the Holy Spirit. But I don't, so I don't think that that's the marker, right?
00:10:39
Speaker
Where I challenge the idea that the Holy Spirit make you do something that makes you uncomfortable is that just seems to be what the Holy Spirit does in scripture. He sends the disciples into spaces that make them uncomfortable, right? And he sends them into areas where the word they're preaching isn't always received well. It's in fact, oftentimes that word that they're preaching leads to angry mobs chasing them out of town.
00:11:07
Speaker
Okay, uncomfortable is different than embarrassed though. Like I don't think, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, it's a different context, right? What the Holy Spirit's doing within the house of the church versus what the Holy Spirit's doing. Within you individually. Right. Right. Reaching to unreach people. Totally different.
00:11:28
Speaker
So I, yeah, I have to think on what you said before I affirm her. So let's talk about why I actually wanted you to come here. In your sermon that I just mentioned at the beginning, and a link will be in the
The Parable of the Lost Sheep Discussion
00:11:44
Speaker
show notes so you can see it. You referenced a verse that has
00:11:51
Speaker
It's always been on my mind for a number of reasons. First of all, I love the song, Reckless Love. And in that song, it talks about the 99. And so I did not know all these references to the 99 until I started getting into scripture and I started figuring it out. And I was like, oh, I heard that song first. I'm sure I heard the verse, but that song hit me. And then I,
00:12:21
Speaker
read more into why. And so the verses from Matthew 12, correct? It's, if a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Won't he leave the 99 others on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? And I love it. I, you know, watch how that song moves in me and moves in others. And
00:12:51
Speaker
you were preaching and I immediately looked this up on my Bible app. That's what I'm reading from. And it dawned on me that I remember hearing someone tell me a pastor saying, Oh, I got challenged before in times when I've talked about this and I've talked about how Jesus wants to save them one and how people will, I don't know how many, but it,
00:13:17
Speaker
all it takes is one is someone will be like, well, what about the 99? Does he not care? And so I wanted to talk to you about that because I never once looked at this thinking about the 99. Yeah. I've always thought about the one.
00:13:33
Speaker
So I'd like to get your thoughts. Yeah. Uh, by the way, when you said, is this a Matthew 12? I Googled it just to check. It's Matthew 18. So even I was like, what's the... Dang it. Matthew 18, 12. It's Matthew 18, 12. Okay. Yes. If you are listening and you want to break this
Prodigal Son and God's Love Abundance
00:13:49
Speaker
past yourself. And is it reckless love or reckless love of God? Reckless love. Okay. Oh, I got that one right. All right. So,
00:13:58
Speaker
Your question is, right, you've talked to people who've pushed back against this verse. They've been like, what about the 99? I'm part of the 99. So the pastor that you've talked to says people who feel like they're part of the 99 don't like the idea that Jesus would go after the one because they think it's at their expense.
00:14:21
Speaker
I don't know the complete context. I know that he was pushed back by someone that said, when you preach about this or when you use this verse, why are we not thinking about the 99? Why is it always about the one? Like. Because that's what it says. Yeah. I guess I'm like, do they want the verse to, do they want Jesus to have said something else? I guess. I am taking it as whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:14:51
Speaker
I guess, does this go back to who is it with the two brothers that one was faithful and the prodigal son, right? Right? Is that it? Is it that whomever may challenge this, they feel like they're the 99 they have been standing by and doing all the things. So like, why aren't you praising us?
00:15:14
Speaker
Okay, so that prodigal son story is a great example of how the son, one goes away and blows his inheritance on things that no parent will want their kid to write their inheritance on. The other son stays at home and is good. So this other son, they're associating themselves with the other son that stayed at home and did the right thing.
00:15:42
Speaker
I'm assuming. It's funny that these people seem to have the same response as the son of the story, because the son of the story is frustrated that the father would show so much love to the son that ran away. And he's so hurt by it. He's so offended. He's so... Because we did not say when the son returned to his father's open arms, like, no matter what you did, I am here for you. Yeah.
00:16:12
Speaker
So the father in the story, his response is, so, okay. So the son that stays home is frustrated. He's like, why are you honoring my dumb brother that ran away? Right? I've been here. I've been the good son the whole time. And the father said, look, you've lived in my blessing for years now, right?
00:16:31
Speaker
but your brother who is lost is now back and we're going to celebrate that. So basically why, why does one day celebrating this one son neglect the years you've spent with me, right? Why can't both be celebrated? Why can't you have spent years in my house and I've cherished that and I've loved that and you've received the benefits of that. Why are you so insecure that this one
00:16:57
Speaker
that your brother who's come back can't even get a day of celebration for me, right? Why has it always gotta be about you? Seems to be maybe what Jesus would want us to think in that story, right? But I'm also not going to get upset with someone who says,
00:17:16
Speaker
that they feel like they've been doing all the things that they're supposed to do and it's like, well, why aren't you thinking of me? I don't know how we switch that or shift that mindset. That's where I really am hit with this verse like, okay, if you are that person who
00:17:39
Speaker
sees this verse one way, which is someone was lost and now they're found. And that is amazing. That is so amazing. Or you see the verse as, I have been loyal to you and you left me. Or I don't even know if it's that. I feel like it's more of the, I have been loyal to you. Why would you go for one
00:18:05
Speaker
versus just staying with me. But then I think that one can multiply and multiply and multiply and multiply. So I think it's that perspective. Okay. So I'm thinking right now that maybe it's people sometimes try to make every, every pastor scripture say everything you need to know about Jesus. When in reality, one passage might highlight one aspect of God's character.
00:18:31
Speaker
in another aspect highlights another part of God's character, right? And so we wouldn't, when we see God doing the just thing, right, and judging evil people, right, we see it in the Old Testament, right, God judges the Egyptians for their wrongdoing. That doesn't mean that God's only a God
00:18:54
Speaker
who's out to judge and destroy bad people. We also know, if you look at different passages, he's also God, whose character is one that loves and saves and goes after his people and saves them, right? And so in this one, right, we see God leaving the 990 to go after the one, and that could make someone think, so I'm faithful and God's just gonna
00:19:18
Speaker
Like, always leave me for the lost person? Well, I'll read you something else. Jesus said in John 14, John 14, 21, whoever has kept my commandments is the one who loves me, right? So this is him speaking to the people who, the faithful, 99. The 99, okay. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them as the one who loves me, the one who loves me will be loved by my father.
00:19:45
Speaker
and I too will love them and show myself to them, right? So the one who keeps my commands is the one who's loved by my father. And so maybe our problem is we see that God's love is a zero-sum game. If God's giving love to someone else, it means there's less love for me. And it's like, actually God's love is infinite. There's enough love for the 99 and the one without us needing to think either side's missing out.
00:20:15
Speaker
And so you got away, not just this story by itself, but in light of other things, Jesus said, Jesus said, if you stay in your faith, when you keep my commands, I love you. And if you run, I'm going to come after you because I love you. And my love for the one doesn't take away from the love for the 90. So maybe this, I mean, bring it home, right? Bring it home. Yes. The God that you want. Yes. The God who has enough love for everyone.
00:20:45
Speaker
I mean, so that's what I would say. I would point them, if you meet someone like that, point them to that part of John 14. You say God sees you, like God knows you, God loves you.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yes, he's going to leave the 99 to go after one, but that doesn't mean he's neglecting you for being faithful. This is good. Yeah. My friend John calls it a scarcity mindset. We have a scarcity mindset that there's not enough for everyone. So I got to make sure I get my own. Yeah. Right. I got to hoard my stuff for myself because there's not enough for everyone. But what scripture actually points to is not a God of scarcity, but a God of abundance.
00:21:30
Speaker
who provides what his people need, who provides enough for his people. That's the kind of God that maybe we should start talking about more, is the God of abundance, who's got enough for everyone. Even you. Even you.