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93: The Gospel According To U2 (Part 1)
74 Plays6 months ago
Pastor Jim Mueller joined Jill Devine for a two-part episode on Normal Goes A Long Way. Jim is the Lead Pastor at Messiah Lutheran Church in St. Charles, Missouri and has been on the podcast several times before.
Messiah St. Charles is in the middle of a sermon series called, The Gospel According To U2.
Jill wanted to get Jim’s take on using “secular” music to reach believers and non-believers.
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Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
Two Kids and A Career: https://www.jilldevine.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast's Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way.
Jill's Journey from Radio to Faith Podcasting
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The normal goes a long way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
Pastor Jim Mueller's Insights on Sermons
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Normal Goes a Long Way. I'm Jill Devine along with Pastor Jim Mueller. No stranger to the podcast. You've been on several times, but it's been a while, but we always come back to you for your expertise and knowledge. I hope not to disappoint, but thank you.
Exploring Spiritual Themes in U2's Music
00:00:59
Speaker
At Messiah, where you are the lead pastor, where I work, we are in the middle of a sermon series called The Gospel According to You Too.
00:01:09
Speaker
And, uh, was it maybe a year ago? We did the gospel according to Johnny Cash. A couple of years ago. Okay. So it had me thinking, okay, wait
Secular vs. Sacred: A Music Discussion
00:01:18
Speaker
a minute. I understand why we're doing it and also connect to it because of my past being on the radio, having
00:01:29
Speaker
music which is considered secular, which by the way, did you know I never knew what the word or the term secular meant until I started working in ministry? I had no idea what that meant. And basically it just means not associated to religion, right? Yeah, I guess the way we use it is to say it's not sacred. Some things, some music would be dedicated as sacred music.
00:01:55
Speaker
Okay others would be secular music. I'm not sure it's probably the most helpful word either. I agree with you Yeah, I don't like it. Yeah, it's just it feels kind of like a You're on this side. I'm on this side. And if you listen to secular music, you're this it's like no anyway, so secular music to some There are so many different
00:02:19
Speaker
spiritual undertones. There are so many different things that we don't even recognize because it isn't in a church setting, because it isn't in or on Christian radio. So I just wanted to kind of get your thoughts and how you all prepared for these messages because we're also going to have the other pastors on to get what they did to prepare. I know a little bit, but
00:02:48
Speaker
I was blown away on that very first week that we had and some of the things that you told me, and I'm talking about the U2 series with the song Beautiful Day. We'll get to that, but let's back up and the reason why. Why are we doing this? Why is it important?
Spirituality in Music and Art
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you for asking. I think we all know that the very best art and the very best music
00:03:13
Speaker
It's like it can't help but to have a spiritual component to it. You can try to avoid spiritual themes, but what happens a lot of times is the thing you're working on becomes a little flat because we're more than just bodies. Yeah. And when you really tap into music, that's really speaks to you. It's like we're saying there's more going on, uh, below the surface. And I noticed even as a kid that I was drawn to music,
00:03:43
Speaker
that tapped into the searching, that tapped into my own spiritual curiosity. And all that being said, I grew up in a church. I grew up in a traditional church that had hymns and an organ and had really bad choirs. And yeah, like I had that music experience on Sundays.
00:04:06
Speaker
And my parents even listened to classical music in the car. Not that the call to classical music was church music. It wasn't, it would have been considered classical secular music in many cases. But I just noticed like as a kid, I was drawn to music like you too. That's from my childhood. And now it's in my adulthood. I guess they don't go out of
00:04:31
Speaker
They don't go out of favor at all. They're playing in Vegas right now in the sphere, it's nuts. When I think about the spiritual component, I really mean it like this, like not in a fundamentalist sense, like the song has all the answers or that I have all the answers or that religion has all the answers, but just a searching for more. That was the music I was really drawn to. And I like the idea that if, I know that if things get bad enough,
00:04:58
Speaker
and sometimes they do in life. Sometimes you can even find an atheist friend folding their hands. I've experienced that because even for the person who just at their core denies that there could ever be a God, sometimes in life when things get bad enough, and it does, sometimes it does get bad enough, I'll notice even those people in my life folding their hands or at least asking me,
00:05:28
Speaker
Hey, I don't know what this means, but could you pray for me? So I think the series, the gospel according to you two was born out of my experience, all of our experience as a team here, that there's been music that didn't originate in the church and it maybe wasn't even intended for the church, but those songs somehow resonated with our souls. And it wasn't as clearly defined in its ideology or theology as maybe a proper
00:05:57
Speaker
him would be. But it felt wrong to call it simply secular. Like some songs are great just because they're fun. You can rock out to them. You can dance to them. But there's some out there that tap into something deeper and they're not born out of the church.
Finding Spirituality in Nature and Music
00:06:16
Speaker
And yet they still harmonize with the soul. Because at the end of the day, like everything that is beautiful, everything that is love,
00:06:27
Speaker
I believe has to be has to have some amount of the divine at the heart of it. And so you don't have to be a Christian hymn writer to write things that beautify and honor God. I don't know. That's kind of my general thought. Well, and I was thinking, too, of something that people will say that church is everywhere, whether it's you're drawn to nature.
00:06:54
Speaker
and the beauty of the landscape of wherever you are. Or like me, like you, we're drawn to music and there are certain things where maybe that song, it doesn't have anything to do with religion, your faith component, but there's something that draws you and it makes you feel God. It makes you feel like there's some sort of connection. And that's,
00:07:23
Speaker
what I love to talk about because I think this is a whole other thing, but it's like the whole, you know, I,
00:07:34
Speaker
I don't want people to think that they can't have a spiritual component because they don't come to church every Sunday. I don't want people to think they can't say they're a Christian because they don't open their Bible. These are the things that help you grow closer to Jesus, I believe, even from my own experience, but there's so many things surrounding us that bring us to that next step. And music for sure for me is that next step.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I like what you said about nature. I think it's important not to worship nature, but I also think it is very, very important to acknowledge what the Psalms acknowledge over and over and over again. That like the mountains and the sky, they all like seeing the praises of God. So there, there is a spiritual experience that happens and we see like all the sages had nature experiences. Jesus himself had to retreat to the wilderness.
00:08:33
Speaker
had to retreat into nature, not just away from the crowds, I don't think. I think he had to retreat into nature to get that particular prayer experience that he needed at that time.
00:08:46
Speaker
Like he knew something intense was about to happen. In one example, he's about to cross the water and there's gonna be a storm and he's gotta be with his disciples. And then when they get to the other side, they're gonna deal with, the story is they're gonna deal with a man who's so demon possessed, he seems to be the most demon possessed man the Bible ever describes. And so right before all that happens, what does Jesus decide to do? Not just pray.
00:09:14
Speaker
he retreats into nature and he prays because he knows his connection with his father in heaven needs to be more intense, or at least that's what I kind of see in the story. And I'm sure most of us who have faith all have our nature retreat stories, like where something really spoke to us, or we were able to find some peace enough to be able to listen for God a little bit more.
00:09:43
Speaker
Um, and I think in music it's, it's certainly the same way. Like there's, I know I have a few mantras in my life, a few songs that are like mine and I like hundreds of songs. I like hundreds of Christian songs and hundreds of secular songs, but there's a few, a couple that like, that's when my soul sings. Yeah.
00:10:09
Speaker
It seems obvious to the listener or even to my closest friends and family that music would be the way that God is speaking to me and through me. And I did not realize that until just honestly a few short months ago.
Personal Revelation: Music's Role in Faith
00:10:27
Speaker
And now I know it. I know it.
00:10:31
Speaker
I think. Do you remember our music connection for the drive conference? Do you remember this? I'm going to walk you through it if you don't walk me through it. So a couple of years ago we attended a conference called drive in Atlanta.
00:10:47
Speaker
And you were pretty new on staff. Yeah. So it was really like, this is a whole new thing for me. And I remember the first night or the first day, whatever, I didn't know all of the music and I started to doubt, cause it was like a worship service and I started to doubt what I was doing. And I started to doubt me being in ministry and some insecurities came up or whatever. And so,
00:11:18
Speaker
The next morning, we go to worship and they open with a Led Zeppelin tribute. And I immediately was like, what? This is amazing. And I just, I still didn't realize, I was like, I know all these songs. This is so cool.
00:11:37
Speaker
Well, you and me and another coworker, we were talking about music and I told you both how I was feeling and I said, it's kind of like one of those things that here at Messiah, and I don't know if other churches do this, there's a certain song that if you don't know the clapping part of it,
00:11:58
Speaker
then you kind of feel left out. And I said, it's that song about gardens being turned into graves. And you're like, oh, Jill, I hope that's not the case. It's graves turned into gardens. And I was like, oh, that makes more sense. And so we were joking around about the clapping. Sure. A better message. Right. At the time I was like, huh? And then the next day, Closing Worship, they played that song. And I was like,
00:12:26
Speaker
What is happening? And then I started picking up on those things. You know, it's, it's funny. I, I guess I forgot that they had the Zeppelin. Oh my gosh. Medley, but you know what? It was so cool. I remember it now because as you said it, I'm like, well, of course they did. I mean, I grew up with Zeppelin. It makes complete sense to me. Yeah. I, my guess is most churches would have seen that and thought,
00:12:54
Speaker
Absolutely not. Right. In fact, maybe that's the opposite of the thing. And then there's a part of me that's like, yeah, actually, that's sort of the point. And then there's also a part of me, it's like you've never really listened to Zeppelin then, because I have. And, you know, I'm I'm I'm not going to take any of them and make them Pope. But there's there's something behind that music and makes complete sense why they did that. And I do love that song you're talking about.
00:13:24
Speaker
Graves into gardens, but I got into great. Yeah, and by the way, you're not the only person here who says Gardens into graves. I've heard a couple people say it Repeatedly over and over again on accident and it always catches me. I'm like, no, no, no, no Like let's not make that no, no, no, no, I don't want to take anybody's garden. No, no, no, no,
Connecting Secular Music to Faith and Community
00:13:47
Speaker
no
00:13:47
Speaker
But even like the Led Zeppelin thing, but don't you feel, this kind of goes back to the whole, I know there's some people that get really upset with the whole 99 and one, but don't you feel like if we can capture someone, just like with the U2 songs, where all of a sudden they feel seen or they feel welcomed, isn't it easier to bring them back because of something like
00:14:15
Speaker
where the streets have no name from you two, or insert whatever song from Led Zeppelin, or insert whatever song from Johnny Cash. I don't know, I know what it feels like to feel on the outside and you bring in a song like that, and then all of a sudden I'm like, whoo, okay, I think I can do this. I guess it all depends on what somebody's definition of church is.
00:14:41
Speaker
If the definition of church, which I think for a lot of people probably is this, is an escape from everything that is normal life, including high walls, barbed wire, to keep everybody safe inside for an hour a week, then that definition would say, we don't want anything from the outside.
00:15:08
Speaker
just in case it could possibly corrupt us. And I think that's maybe a working definition that far too many church ministries probably have. On the other hand, I'd like to see the church flavoring more of the world. And I'd like to see the church perhaps throwing out a few more compliments to beauty that's already happening in the world.
00:15:33
Speaker
and maybe showing the world how God would love to be a part of that thing that they're already doing. And that God is also for that good thing that they might be doing. And again, this isn't to say that every single song belongs on a Sunday morning, including some of the music I listened to this morning when I was working out. So yeah, I can't imagine everything having its
00:16:02
Speaker
liturgical use, so to speak. But I think we need to expand our minds a little bit. I mean, when I go to a great restaurant and like there's, I had some pizza last week and there's something about the way this place in Arizona makes pizza and the flavor of the sauce is like nothing else. No one else can do this. Nobody. And I've had pizza all over the world and had some great places and
00:16:32
Speaker
We all have our favorites. I'm just going to tell you, and by the way, right down the street, noto pretty good too. I mean, so good spot spot. If you're here in St. Charles, you need to go there. But when you meet somebody that like can cook for you that way, there's like a part of me that's like, ah, that's what it's going to be like at the table of God. Like that's the feast that revelations talking about is going to be like that. And so like,
00:17:00
Speaker
I just appreciate people who have found the thing they were meant to do and to see them harmonizing in that thing they were meant to do. It's like, oh, you've already found a lot of God, whether you know Him or not yet, because you're starting to really fulfill your purpose. And God would be so happy with you for doing that purpose. Again, whether they know Him or not, it just brings me so much joy to see people just do that thing that they're able to do. And it doesn't have to be
00:17:31
Speaker
within four walls of a church? No, no. And if, in fact, if we only stay within four walls of the church, how sad would that be for the rest of the world? Yeah, I think maybe there's some beauty that's out there in the world that the church needs to experience. And I think that there's some real beauty in Christians that the world needs to experience. And if all we're doing is always hiding, protecting ourselves,
00:18:00
Speaker
How sad is that? The metaphor I've used before is a lot of churches, most churches maybe, their dominant metaphor for how they describe the church seems to be a nursing home. It's a place where people go to be cared for before they die. And I think, I wish the church's dominant metaphor was
00:18:22
Speaker
more like a maternity ward. Giving birth to new life over and over again daily. Giving birth to new and beautiful people. Giving birth to the next generation, empowering them.
00:18:39
Speaker
I wish churches thought of themselves, at least had a vision that it can be that way. Yeah. Well, I would love to hear the songs that have made an impact on you, but not this week. So come back in two weeks for our part two conversation with Pastor Jim Mueller, and we'll talk more about the songs that influenced him, that made a difference, as well as more about the gospel according to you too.