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84: YES Moments - Saying Yes To Working For A Nonprofit (Part 2)
164 Plays2 years ago
In Episodes 75 and 76, Jill Devine talked to Andy Wiggins and Todd Larkin. They are the Co-Founders of Hearts & Hope for Uganda. Hearts & Hope is a St. Louis-area 501c3 nonprofit focused on transforming poor villages in Uganda through clean water, health & wellness, education, and small business development. Since its founding in 2011, Hearts & Hope has established 8 schools which provide education to over 2,000 children!
Sara Owens is the Program Leader and Kelly Turntine is in charge of Marketing & Business Development at Hearts & Hope. In this week’s episode, Jill invited Sara and Kelly to come on the podcast to discuss the YES moment(s) that led to leaving their corporate jobs to pursue a career in the nonprofit sector.
Episode 75: A Mission To Create Hope and Transform Lives in Uganda (Part 1)
Episode 76: A Mission To Create Hope and Transform Lives in Uganda (Part 2)
Normal Goes A Long Way Website: https://www.normalgoesalongway.com/
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Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
Two Kids and A Career: https://www.jilldevine.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:40
Speaker
Thanks for coming back to listen to part two of the conversation with Sarah and Kelly from Hearts and Hope. If you haven't had a chance to listen to part one in episode 83, I encourage you to do that first and then come back and listen to this episode. So let's go ahead and pick up from where we left off in episode 83 with Sarah and Kelly from Hearts and Hope.
Emotional Challenges of Mission Work
00:01:01
Speaker
What I'd like to tackle next is
00:01:05
Speaker
that time in Uganda and you know coming back. One of the things that Todd and I were talking about not too long ago it was after your most recent trip and so we were talking about the boy that our family sponsors Derek and I said I don't
00:01:28
Speaker
know how because I have not been on a mission trip. It is on my bucket list and I've thought a lot about it. Like why do I want to go on a mission trip? Am I doing it for me? What does that look like? What does that mean? Like what is it that I'm
00:01:46
Speaker
why do I want to go? And my answer inside is to help. I have no idea if that is even the right answer or an answer. I'm not sure, but Todd and I were talking about coming back again and I said, I don't know how it would feel to leave Derek. Even though Derek's not my son,
00:02:10
Speaker
and Derek, it's just, there's this investment now. And, um, and I joked around, I said, do you offer counseling? And Todd's like, we actually do. Like there's this thing that you, we need to know going into it and what we need to know coming back from it. And it's just so confusing to me. I don't even know where to begin. So what I like
00:02:36
Speaker
what you had said about, hey, it is okay. You can't have the guilt for having what you have. But let's walk through that because you go multiple times a year
00:02:48
Speaker
And I'm going to guess it's not just routine and normal or is it? Do you come back different each time? Do you come back like, okay, that's what we do. Here's what we go. Like, how
Cultural Insights from Uganda
00:03:01
Speaker
does that work? There, there always comes a time and it's now, I was just there in June and now I'm like, I gotta go back. Like there's a poll always, especially when I'm, when I start to get lost in Western culture and you know, the, the illusions that we chase every day that are not important.
00:03:17
Speaker
I have to go back and it just grounds me completely to what's important and what I need to focus on. And then also I receive so much love and every trip is different. There are certain things that are routine.
00:03:32
Speaker
certain airports, certain things we always do through the airport when Sarah and I go, I've been 15 times. And so, I mean, I, it's really like a second home, but it is so different. Every time I get off that plane and smell that, the smell of that air, I'm like, wow, I'm in Africa again. And it just, it's, oh, it always feels very the same, but also you experience different things. You see different things. The amount of stories we have of,
00:03:59
Speaker
what these kids have gone through and what we've witnessed there is it's just powerful and every time is different. So we go in with certain plans and certain routines, but we always come back like impacted by certain things in different ways and things we can share with people.
00:04:14
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree with that. I feel like each trip is a little bit different in that the shorter the trip, the harder it is to... I'd say one of the challenges of our specific job is that it is our job. And so the nature of Uganda is transformative in terms of how they relate to other people, how they spend their time, how they communicate, how they want to know you.
00:04:43
Speaker
enjoy true fellowship.
00:04:47
Speaker
And then the nature of you going for business purpose, that kind of can ruin things a little bit, like if you don't have enough time. And so that's my job specifically. Most people who go on a mission ship won't experience that particular nuance because that is what we do as we build relationships. So most people who go on a mission ship are going specifically to build those relationships and have lots of those opportunities. Something I personally have struggled with
00:05:13
Speaker
is that balance between saying, we only have two weeks, we have to talk to all these people to figure out how this is going. And the more I remember to say, step back, see how people are doing, like, let things happen organically, and then
00:05:29
Speaker
you know, bring in maybe the things that you need to focus on. It's much healthier. And I will say that the times when you just can sit down with somebody and let them ask questions and you talk with them, like those are the most beautiful experiences. And right now I kind of have a roommate, but most I've been living alone the last two-ish years. But before that, when I was going, my roommates could always tell when I came back from Uganda, they'd say, you're just so much more present when you come back.
00:05:57
Speaker
And it's as if you remember what human interaction is supposed to be like, because in Uganda, there's just this beautiful capacity to, you're not in a rush for something, you're not trying to move to the next thing, or you don't have, like you as a mom, you don't have to take your kids to school, and then soccer practice, and then this, and then you have to interview, and you have groceries to worry about, and checking in on anything else, whereas there, it's like, you're with someone, and that's
Post-Trip Spiritual Reflection
00:06:26
Speaker
your agenda, right?
00:06:26
Speaker
Even that was brought up on, I think the February trip this year, or might have been the June, someone said the way that the students, the kids, even little, little kids, like four or five year olds, like just look at you straight in the eyes and just listen. And they don't even half the time understand what we're saying in English, but they are just smiling and looking at you like so intensively, like you are their priority at that moment.
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, to be able to feel heard from like a toddler is a unique experience. Oh, yeah. And even as a mom, I'm like, oh, you actually listened to me? Well, it's interesting because what I recently talked about in some episodes, a three part episode was my first time going on a retreat and the high that I was on when I came back and how
00:07:20
Speaker
On that last day, they had said, you know, spiritual warfare, the devil is going to the devil, the enemy, they're going to get in there and they are going to take this away. And I had just had a voice text conversation with one of the leaders of the retreat.
00:07:38
Speaker
She's like, how are you doing? How are things going? I'm like, well, listen, I'm not on that high anymore at all, which I would love to be on that high. But what I try to do is remember that high whenever I am frustrated or I'm worried or I'm this.
00:07:58
Speaker
I wonder though, I'm not going to know unless I, when I do it, but is that high coming back from Uganda also a complete low? Like you would feel, you would bring home all of like the sadness. Yeah, I would say, but then I'm making that about me and that's not what it's supposed to be about. So then I start feeling guilty about that. Yeah. My, my first trip there compared to my 15th, let's say, or whatever,
00:08:26
Speaker
I even my second my first trip there I cried every single day and it was more of like a Why do I have so much and they have so little and I was looking at them through a lens of I need to feel sorry for these people These people have a hard life. I need to feel sorry for them and in some way that elevated me above them
00:08:45
Speaker
The more I've gone, the more I come home and I feel sorry for people around me. And all of the mental health problems, the lack of community, the lack of just the lack of faith in the US particularly, going to Uganda and seeing they live by when you have very little, you have a lot to give. Like they take care of, they raise all of the neighborhood kids are all raised by the community and you know, they're there for each other
00:09:15
Speaker
they fight for each other. And it's just something that we come home and we are inside our huge houses and half of us don't even know our neighbors. And it's just, it is really sad to see that the more material wealth we build walls, walls, walls around each other. And that's who we belong to and who we should.
00:09:35
Speaker
you know, lean on. And that's something we don't have here. So I go to Uganda and I'm like, these people are fine. You know, like, I think what we're doing is wonderful by providing them some material things that are really vital, like clean water and education. Right. This safety. Right. Just general, like wellness to protect, you know, their human dignity. But there's something so much that we have to learn, something so huge that we have to learn from these people.
Rethinking Poverty and Materialism
00:10:02
Speaker
So you bring that back too.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, there's a quote that I really like that I'm not going to quote directly because I'm definitely paraphrasing. But it's basically like, as a Western culture, we tend to see poverty and say, what is the solution here? Oh, it's to make them like us. Let them be like middle class people who have their resources met. Yet you look at us and we are a nation or culture defined by suicide rates, divorce, addiction, like mental
00:10:32
Speaker
health challenges, depression, isolation. And you look at, you know, and you can't really make these comparisons, right? Because there's still these challenges in Uganda as well. But you look at Uganda and you see this lack of resources, which we see as being above all the very worst thing you could ever imagine. And yet you meet people who have this depth to them, this creativity to them, this resilience and this kindness and this spirituality that we can't even come close to in our day to day interactions. And you say,
00:11:01
Speaker
Okay, like who's actually the poor person in this situation? Like who really has something to learn? And so what Kelly said is very true in that there's that like, it's absolutely heartbreaking that how would we live in 2023? And they don't have clean water or the ability for their children to go to school. That's wrong. It is. It just is wrong that we throw away food and they go hungry. That's, it's wrong. And that's heartbreaking. And that's not what God wants. That's not what we want.
00:11:30
Speaker
But then you look at us and you say, how are we this impoverished that we don't even recognize that we are the ones missing things in our life and that we are the isolated, we are the lonely, we're the ones longing for connection and without it. And yet they've somehow, like blessed are the poor, you see that and you go on to absolutely and you recognize like there's no, poverty is just, it just becomes a whole different thing when you have those experiences.
00:11:57
Speaker
Like this is a yes moment for me hearing what you like how you come back now the not the going into it feeling sorry for you. That's not it. And you're right. I mean you look at all these stats and it's like you we want to do that. We want to be a part of that. I think something that you two are helping me with right now is
00:12:24
Speaker
this has been an ongoing thing for me is, you know, you know, you keep, you compare yourself. You say this, you say that like, oh, my house isn't big enough. I mean, that's something that my husband and I have been struggling with. I'm like, our house isn't big enough and we're not doing this and this. And it's like, okay, well then what do we do?
00:12:45
Speaker
It's the answer. The solution is not go into more debt to find a bigger house. The answer is to figure out how to make our house that we get to live in work for us. And so I have been, um, pastor Chuck just recently talked about this in a sermon. Did you marry Jesus for his money? Oh,
00:13:10
Speaker
Oh, it puts a lot into perspective and I have really started trying to think about these idols and what is important. And like clearly God is speaking to me through YouTube right now and thinking of those things. I will share a story that really has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about, but I feel like it keeps coming up.
00:13:40
Speaker
uh, not too long ago, I lost my wedding ring within our house. The wedding ring means so much to me on a number of reasons. My husband and I designed it just like all these different things. And
00:14:02
Speaker
I wonder if I was just making that an idol. Like I'm spending all this energy and this time thinking about this wedding ring and how much I love it and how much it's like who I am and my identity and
00:14:19
Speaker
I have really been struggling with what I wear now on my finger and what I used to wear. But then there's this also this like piece to say, it doesn't have to be that. And so I, I, I don't know if that makes sense, but I guess I'm just with what you guys are saying. I would love to have that mindset in a lot of ways with a lot of different things in my life.
00:14:49
Speaker
Yeah, and maybe God put Sarah and I in Uganda to constantly remind us of that as well because I know we, you know, it's hard to maintain that attitude when we do live in this society and we've been conditioned from our culture from a very young age that, you know, material things and the meaning that we attach to them, you know, if the material thing goes away, the meaning goes away. But the meaning always is in us. Right. And so to detach meaning from material things can be extremely difficult.
00:15:19
Speaker
And that's, that's kind of what Sarah was saying is like we, we place a lot of meaning in, you know, let's say you want a Tesla and that's what you've worked for your whole.
00:15:30
Speaker
whole life or whatever, like you've worked for years and years, saved up, you've sacrificed and you have this Tesla, that Tesla is a lot of your self-identity and your worth. So something happens with that Tesla, you're gonna freak out. And then someone like us who just came from Africa can be like, did you know that this kid sleeps on dirt and his toes are eaten by rats at night? And you're screaming about this Tesla, but what we don't see is he's screaming about the loss of his self-worth and his self-identity. So a lot of it really, yeah, you have to view things
00:16:00
Speaker
coming back from Uganda of knowing that people here really do attach a lot of worth to material things. I think there's a challenge that comes where when you're surrounded by, you know, just the environments like Uganda, you actually start resenting those with money who don't seem to use it well. Like, and there's like a bitterness that almost wells up when you look at celebrity or you look at the culture that we what we celebrate.
00:16:28
Speaker
And you think about how many lives could just be normalized or safe just by the use of that money. And something something my mom also said when I was young that stuck with me is pain is pain.
Learning and Growth in Mission Work
00:16:41
Speaker
Like even a stubbed toe like it just because it's not a broken arm doesn't mean a stubbed toe doesn't hurt. Right. And so of course those things are very different. But yet I think
00:16:49
Speaker
Something I've been thinking about during this conversation is the need for us to have grace with ourselves and for others, no matter what those lives look like. So for instance, you asked, you have this fear that going to Uganda maybe have the wrong motives, would have the wrong motives. Maybe you'd make it about you. And that to me says that you maybe have a lack of grace for yourself or waiting for that perfect moment where you are at the right place mentally and you are
00:17:16
Speaker
maybe at the place where you're like, okay, now I'm at the right place. I know my motives are totally pure.
00:17:21
Speaker
And I'd have to say, I don't know if any of us can ever really know when or if our motors up here. I always say I go to Uganda for me. I mean, I'm so lucky that this is my job and like I get the chance to go so much. But even on like mission trips, like, and I tell everyone who goes on trips, like you have to understand like this is for us. We get so much, even if our intention is we want to help and we do, we spread love, we spread happiness and hope.
00:17:47
Speaker
but you get so much more in return from these people. So going to Uganda is, it's transformative, but it's okay if you want to go to just receive love, because that place has a lot to give. That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard. Oh, for sure. And it's amazing. White saviour, that's a definite thing. And, you know, like where you go to, you know, like there is unfortunately the reality that people can go on a trip and
00:18:14
Speaker
it becomes about them to the extent that look at these children who make me look better because of what i did right i would say even
00:18:21
Speaker
I mean, I look at my early trips and I have so many photos like that, you know, that I would not have taken this, like this eight, but like that was my foundation almost was, you don't know what you don't know. Like you just think you're like, wow, look what I'm experienced. Look at the love I'm seeing and receiving. And you want to share that with people and you don't realize that it makes you look like you're like, you know, look at me and what I'm doing. But you know, you learn a lot through those experiences and recognizing like, Hey, did I have good motives at that point? Like was I,
00:18:49
Speaker
Was I posting that for me or for exposure for those kids? And you're able to develop a more educated perspective. And I would say a lot of people know more now than I did when I was young, going on these trips. But you have to have the grace to let yourself make those mistakes or have those experiences so that you can learn and you can recognize. Then when I heard someone say,
00:19:14
Speaker
something like would you want your child photographed when they're crying or they have a snotty nose like no you don't well that hit differently because I'm like I did post a picture like that when I was 19 you know like of these kids who were crying and guess what they were crying because you know like they didn't get a sucker or something but people see that and they're like their lives are miserable and you know and actually that child had a happy family and
00:19:37
Speaker
but I thought it was an artistic moment, right? And I learned from that now. I can look back and say, why did I, why did I feel the need to post somebody's vulnerable moment on my Facebook page when I don't have that permission or that, you know, like you, you learn a lot through those things and mistakes are made, but that those sort of foundational things can lead you on a fully different path.
Building Genuine Connections
00:19:59
Speaker
So my encouragement is don't wait till you have the right motives, like educate yourself for sure.
00:20:04
Speaker
and start reading books or start, you know, watching documentaries or talking to people who have gone and experienced these things, but, or people from those cultures even more so, but don't wait. You know, this whole podcast is about normal people, right? Normal people make mistakes left and right. So it's okay. Yeah, exactly. I think the fact that you're even asking yourself that question of, am I going for me? And like means you are doing the preparation and it means that you are thinking about, you know, you have, you want to have the best intentions going there and interacting with those people.
00:20:33
Speaker
and some people really do just go because oh so-and-so is also going or I had to go on a trip this year anyway so might as well go these are the things I've heard that I'm like maybe you didn't have the best you know maybe you could have gone somewhere else or something so it is really great to have that already just knowing you want to go and knowing you want to be in the right mindset is a good first step
00:20:56
Speaker
Well, thank you. I think too, as we wrap things up, like just the confidence that you two have, especially to come back, I definitely understand our country, but at the same time, I don't until I hear perspective from both of you.
00:21:23
Speaker
And I think that that's just one of those things too, like not caring what people think.
00:21:29
Speaker
easier said than done. But when you start to have that, even if it's in your own head, that's what matters. It doesn't matter what anybody else says or thinks or any of that, as long as you're okay with that yourself. And that's a struggle. And I think that that is something that is so beautiful to have individuals like you and anybody that goes and comes back to start saying, this is about
00:22:00
Speaker
so much more. It's about connection. It is about learning, taking what we see there and learning and bringing it here. It's not about showing a crying child. It is okay to show a, not okay, show a happy child and show that you can still make a difference in their life. They don't have to be crying. They don't have to not have clothes on. That's not the thing. Let's not use that as the reason to get people to
00:22:28
Speaker
get in. Let's use community and connection and all these amazing things to get people in because then we will make it better here. Absolutely.
00:22:42
Speaker
I am so thankful for you both and I cannot wait to experience this with you both as well. Oh, it's going to be so awesome. So is Derek, he's waiting. As you've gone in to say, your most well-o-come. Oh. Yeah, and I'm sure Derek has some mangoes ready for you. They're probably going to be bad by the time. If you don't hurry up, I'm just kidding.
00:23:08
Speaker
Stop guilty me.
Conclusion and Engagement
00:23:10
Speaker
Thank you both for what you're doing. I cannot wait to experience, like I said, it with you, and then we'll have all of your contact information on the show notes at normalgoesalongway.com. Can you say that again? You're welcome. You are most welcome.