Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Comics Catch-Up 082: Frank Miller's Ronin
1 Plays3 seconds ago
It's hard to deny the ambition of Frank Miller's 43-year-old breakout prestige-format series...but does it actually hold up? Our answer may surprise you (or it may not).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Setup
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster or you want to be a podcaster and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster. They also have hosting options and you can let them know that we sent you. Follow the link in our show notes or in the episode description and sign up for an account on Zencaster now to start recording your own podcast.
00:00:28
Speaker
Oh my god, it's comic! I think it's a puzzle in the world! This is Comics Catch-Up. Hey, twerp! You better not be mine!
00:00:39
Speaker
Come on! It's in my comic!
00:00:51
Speaker
where we read comics suggested by you, the listeners of War Rocket Ajax, that we have missed. Oh, hey, it's been a minute.
00:01:02
Speaker
We should catch up. Comics catch up, that is.
Exploring Frank Miller's Ronin
00:01:05
Speaker
This is the show where the hosts of War Rocket Ajax, that's me, Chris Sims, and, of course, Matt Wilson, we catch up on the comics that we missed out on, and whether they're recent books that we just sort of fell off, or 43-year-old comics titles from megastar creators like we're doing this week. Matt? Yes.
00:01:26
Speaker
You ready to talk about Ronin? I am. They're comics that are my exact age. Yes. Happy birthday. That's right. ah Yes, we're going to be talking about Frank Miller's Ronin, which ran from July 1983 until August of nineteen eighty four ah six issues Which took more than a year to come out, which, you know, that that used to happen back then, too, I guess.
00:01:57
Speaker
It's true. Boy, this is going to be a weird one, Chris. This is going to be a weird one. Do you think people are going to mad at us again? They might be. I mean, my take on this book is mixed.
00:02:13
Speaker
Mixed. ah i don't i I think you may have just not liked it. i Didn't care for it, no. Yeah. um It's... Yeah, i I did not care for it.
00:02:29
Speaker
I feel like it... In terms of, like, art, like, especially for 83, like, this is really this is Frank really getting into something, I think. yeah yeah. ah Like, this is... This feels like the transition point. Like, if you go and read his...
00:02:49
Speaker
early issues of Daredevil. Like, it's it's very kind of standard comics, but this is like Frank Miller. it it certainly is the start of that style that he would become known for, that artistic style that would really like kind of culminate, well, I guess with Dark Knight Returns, but then become even more pronounced in like Sin City. Yeah.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah and And would get, like, spiral out of control circa Dark Knight Strikes Again. Yes. Well, that was, like, almost a whole different style by the time Dark Knight Strikes Again happens. but Yeah.
00:03:30
Speaker
I should say, did you read this ah digitally?
Plot Overview: Ronin's Journey
00:03:34
Speaker
Yes, I did. I should say, listener Julia... ah loaned me the hard copy so that I got the i could get the full effect of the ah the pullout spreads ah in at the end.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yes, that there it ends with one big four-page poster-sized pullout, yeah I would say. Which is pretty cool, but yeah like like it's pretty cool in concept.
00:04:01
Speaker
I feel like it's less cool in practice because... like
00:04:07
Speaker
It's, I mean...
00:04:11
Speaker
mean, it's pretty cool, I guess. I wish it served a better story. Yeah. Like, let's just talk about plot real quick. Because there's not a ton of plot in this book.
00:04:28
Speaker
It's long. It's like six 50-plus page issues. But... Or I guess prestige books is how it was originally published. Yeah, I mean, it is it's it's ah it's a thick old piece of comics.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah. But as far as plot goes, there's there's not a lot here. Essentially, the first issue cuts back and forth between flashbacks of a samurai who's who doesn't have a name.
00:05:05
Speaker
But he is the the student. His master is Lord Ozaki. And one night, ah he like is at a party, and he sees his master going into his house with geishas.
00:05:21
Speaker
And so he decides to not go in there with him. And a demon named ah Agate is... disguised as one of the geishas, and kills his master.
00:05:36
Speaker
And so the samurai becomes a ronin. and Now what is that? It's a masterless samurai. And it does say in the book, I think in issue five, it finally says masterless samurai. It says it pretty early, because that's what that's I sent you the ah the screenshot, the picture that I took with my phone while I was reading it.
00:05:57
Speaker
to to show that it did in fact say ah he is a ronan a masterless samurai. it It comes up later in the book, too. I i read the two halves of this, like...
00:06:08
Speaker
two weeks apart. So but I probably will remember the back half better than the front half. But kills Agate, he kill or like stabs the demon Agate, and Agate curses him, and they both get trapped inside a sword.
00:06:25
Speaker
That is the flashback part of issue one. Then there is a flash forward part many, many centuries in the future.
00:06:37
Speaker
In a sort of like manga-style futuristic wasteland ah New York. Neo-York.
00:06:50
Speaker
It's Neo-York, yeah. And it's about to, E-X-P-L-O-D-E. That's right. It's been taken over by a company called Aquarius that ah studies bio-circuitry. They make essentially kind of like guard androids or guard robots. They also give people like like ah cyborg parts and stuff like that. Yeah, and they're working on like full cybernetic like limb replacement prosthetics.
00:07:25
Speaker
Right. so and they And they are telling everyone that they've figured it out. They have not. So there's this... Guy who was born limbless, his name is Billy Chalice.
The Futuristic Setting and Characters
00:07:39
Speaker
he has become essentially the basis of Aquarius' experiments to try to do this limb replacement stuff.
00:07:49
Speaker
But Billy also has tele telekinetic and telepathic powers. He has been dreaming about the Ronin for months now.
00:08:02
Speaker
and not but I'm sorry. What was that? The Masterless Samurai, the Ronin. Who doesn't have a name. So we're going to have to keep calling him the Ronin. Do you think he's named after the Candle Ghost that Bev Crusher fucked.
00:08:19
Speaker
That was Ronan with an A. No, it's Ronan with an i Is it? It is. Wow, that's wild. yeah According to ah ah the the writer of the episode, he just thought it sounded like a cool name and was unaware of the term Masterless Samurai.
00:08:35
Speaker
i think in the captions of that episode, it's R-O-N-A-N. Buddy, how many times when was the last time you watched Sub-Rosa? Not that long ago. Like... Maybe a year ago? Because i ah I have watched it more recently and more often, I can guarantee.
00:08:56
Speaker
So he's having these incredibly vivid dreams about Agate and Lord Ozaki and the Ronin. And ah we meet...
00:09:07
Speaker
The founder of Aquarius, Mr. Taggart, we also meet his wife, whose name is Casey. She is she is like the head of security for Aquarius.
00:09:21
Speaker
And essentially what happens is that Billy, through through a series of events and accidents... ah And and like a negotiation with a Japanese company. Yeah, it's it you can tell this was made in 83 because ah the Japanese have come to acquire this company.
00:09:42
Speaker
Yeah. um Essentially, Billy is reborn as this ancient Ronin. Yeah, and one of the things that we find out is that the prosthetic limbs that he has, that they've given him to him, which are kind of the the real key selling point of what Aquarius is doing, they don't actually work.
00:10:03
Speaker
It's just that, like, Billy's telekinesis is controlling the limbs. And they're like, yeah, but you know as soon as we figure that out, we'll be able to have telekinesically controlled cyber limbs for everybody.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's like... that That might be the most prescient part of this comic. Of like people like people in in high positions in tech companies being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is going to work great.
00:10:33
Speaker
um But it doesn't work yet. um And probably never will. um But they're convinced that it will. ah Okay, so... The Ronin is like reborn in Billy's body.
00:10:47
Speaker
And... ah He like breaks out, meets up with this hippie guy whose name is Head, and then goes in. This sucks. All of these people in like issues two and three suck so bad.
00:11:02
Speaker
It's like this hippie guy and a bunch of Nazis. They're saying constant slurs. yeah Including. It's.
00:11:14
Speaker
I texted you. And i I feel like this is true, having read a lot of 80s Frank Miller comics. I think and I have now read all of them. Ronan was the last piece of that puzzle.
00:11:28
Speaker
It's real tough to tell how Frank feels about the gay leather Nazi community.
00:11:35
Speaker
yeah. yeah
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah. Real tough. It's both a fascination and a repulsion. yeah can It kind of feels like. it's It's like a shorthand for like, it's okay for like, I mean, obviously, you know, when the the lady with the swastika boobs shows up in Dark Knight Returns, like that's ah that's a bad guy, you know? That's a bad guy, yeah.
00:12:00
Speaker
and But it's like... But then it you gotta wonder, like is this is this ah a gay leather community thing? Is this a Nazi thing? like I know there's so like ah like some crossover with the aesthetics, but is there anyone more moved to New York than Frank Miller?
00:12:23
Speaker
ah ah so Essentially, this gives the Ronin a bunch of people to kill. Yeah. for a couple issues and like to prove who he is and to start to learn english and to do all these other things casey on behalf of aquarius because she's their head of security goes and like tries to find the ronan and kill him ah because you know he's he's their project who has escaped
00:12:54
Speaker
But she ends up getting like trapped in a sewer ah by these like cannibal people. And the Ronin saves her. And she's immediately attracted to him and they have sex.
00:13:10
Speaker
ah Yeah, and she wanted to like she was ordered to bring him back alive, but she wanted to kill him. Because... he killed three of her killed three of her security guys. um And these ah these cannibalistic humanoid underdwellers, that's what happens when homeless people are breeding.
00:13:30
Speaker
as it says pretty much verbatim yeah in in the ah the the text. they They just become mindless cannibals, which...
00:13:46
Speaker
That's not great. So Casey kind of like instantly falls in love with the Ronin and decides she doesn't want to kill him. But ah Peter, who is another like employee of Aquarius, ah like he he reveals himself to be a cyborg and cuts all of the Ronin's arms and legs off and is going to bring him back as Billy.
00:14:16
Speaker
But then the Ronin grows his arms and legs back, and they like fight them off. And then like the last couple issues are a lot of talking and a big fight where Agat gets his head cut off. and the because because i we Did we say that the head of the corporation gets taken over by Agat or Agat or whatever his name is?
00:14:41
Speaker
a god It might be Agat, yeah. ah Yeah, he does. There's a big question that I feel like the book is posing, Which is whether all of this is Billy's like invention.
00:14:57
Speaker
Oh, that's not a question. is that specifically said? Well, it's it is revealed over the course of the story, because what you find out, and I think this is actually my favorite part, is where like the the Sawa Corporation guys, the Japanese businessmen, show up, and they see the Ronin, and...
00:15:18
Speaker
oh And the the guy who runs the company is like, oh, yeah, this is ah this is, you know, like, he's just like a test model that we made to test out our our cyborgs.
00:15:30
Speaker
And they go, oh, Ronan. And and the the guy goes, oh, yeah, I mean, this must be like, he must be a well-known legend in your culture. And then you find out that, no, it it's a TV show.
00:15:45
Speaker
And it's a TV show that Billy used to watch when he was a kid. ah heel I didn't even catch the thing about it being a TV show somehow. yeah Yeah, because Billy watches it when he's a kid, and we find out that Billy killed kid who was bullying him for not having arms and legs.
00:16:01
Speaker
um And ah while he was watching this... imported samurai, like tokusatsu show, basically.
00:16:12
Speaker
um And so all of this, it turns out, is Billy's telepathy and telekinesis. It's everything.
The Twist: Ronin's Reality
00:16:23
Speaker
So it's his body being rebuilt into the Ronin. It's his control over ah over the like limbs, but it's also Agat being made manifest and killing and taking over the guy ah who runs the company.
00:16:42
Speaker
like That's all Billy. Yeah. And also, Billy is the reason that Virgo, which is the Aquarius Corporation's computer that he's been working with for years...
00:16:59
Speaker
to try to develop this prosthetic limbs program. He, by, by him being plugged into Virgo, Virgo has essentially like achieved consciousness. Yeah.
00:17:14
Speaker
It like is alive and wants things and is growing and is taking over New York city. And, ah like,
00:17:27
Speaker
has, has like become sentient and essentially like evil. Yeah. And in the way of computers, in the way of computers. Yeah.
00:17:38
Speaker
Um, and ultimately like, Oh, Oh, there's a big thing where Casey kills, um, like the head of the corporation. I think that's Peter. It's not Taggart.
00:17:49
Speaker
Taggart dies earlier. Um, I think she kills Peter who like becomes the Ronin sworn enemy. And so she makes the Ronin commit seppuku.
00:18:01
Speaker
And when he commits seppuku, Billy like releases this giant telekinetic blast that destroys everything. And that's that big pullout spread. yeah And um is the end of the book.
00:18:18
Speaker
and like But then it shows that the Ronin and Casey are both still alive after the blast happens. Yeah. Like, I'll say this about it.
00:18:32
Speaker
It's very ambitious. Like, for 1983, I assume people reading this in 1983 were blown away by it. Yeah, I mean, if like look at look at what else DC Comics was putting out in 1983. it's pretty...
00:18:48
Speaker
and it's pretty it's it Here is what I will say. It's ahead of its time. By a while. like this This comic feels like it could have come out ten years later than it did.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, and and and if you were just reading American comics at the time,
00:19:13
Speaker
I doubt you had would have seen anything like this. No. It does come off as pretty revolutionary for American Comics in 83. I can see why is regarded as...
00:19:27
Speaker
why it is regarded as as a a classic in some ways. um And the, the back covers of the issues have all of these like quotes from like all of your faves. Yeah.
00:19:45
Speaker
John Byrne, Harlan Ellison, all your faves, all the, all your faves. I think there was a Walt Simonson quote. there I mean, there's ah i mean i'm I'm joking, but it's also Bill Sienkiewicz, George Perez, Mike W. Barr, Terry Austin. Like yeah Harlan Ellison says it is a peak of excellence to which others must aspire ah you know Archie Goodwin, Joe Qbert.
00:20:09
Speaker
It's hype. and
Influences and Artistic Style
00:20:11
Speaker
it's It's like, hey, what's up, everybody? Here's Frank Miller. He's going to be the biggest the biggest thing. and on And on top of that, it was very influential.
00:20:22
Speaker
It supposedly had ah was a big influence, along with Miller's Daredevil on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. um and Influence like... Samurai Jack.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, there's a two I can see a lot of Samurai Jack in this, for sure. Yeah, the the sort of mix of like ancient samurai story plus future futuristic plus demon. Yeah. ah is you know um But like it it was very influential, and and I understand that, and and has been lauded a lot.
00:20:58
Speaker
However, reading it 40-plus years after the fact, it is much easier ah for us to see what Frank's influences were here. Frank frank Miller has been open about being heavily influenced by Lone Wolf and Cub.
00:21:21
Speaker
Holy Word? He of he was very, very influenced by Lone Wolf and Cub. We brought up Akira.
00:21:33
Speaker
Now, Akira, the comic, was not released in the United States until, I think, like 1986? 88. 88. However! Yes.
00:21:45
Speaker
i did some I did some digging, ah and Kazuhiro Otomo went to New York in 83 and talked to Archie Goodwin at Marvel about Marvel publishing Akira.
00:22:04
Speaker
And you know who else would have been hanging around the Marvel offices with Archie Goodwin in 1983? Yeah. yeah There's and's no way Frank did not read Akira before he made this. like i'm not even I'm not even saying, like oh, it's a ripoff or whatever. I'm saying there's no way.
00:22:20
Speaker
it I mean, the timeline is a little... you know how How early was Frank working on this? Because it started coming out in July of 83. Yeah. And Akira didn't start coming out in Japan until like late 1982.
00:22:37
Speaker
yeah So but i mean that was that's was there enough time? I don't know. Well, that's the thing that I think we've we sometimes forget about the creators who were working back then. You're Walt Simonsons, you're Frank Millers, you're Chris Claremonts, you're John Burns, ah you're George Perez's, and Marv Wolfman's.
00:23:00
Speaker
They were huge nerds. Yes. like yes they were They were us. They were the guys who would go to comic book conventions, and then after the convention was over, they would go back to the hotel and fucking talk about comics.
00:23:14
Speaker
like Like, we all do. And there's no way that that Frank didn't see Akira. Like, see the comic.
00:23:26
Speaker
And I feel like there's a direct line... from seeing Akira, but not necessarily being able to read it to making this comic because you're like, i mean, I kind of think this was what it was about, but this is what I would do.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I don't mean that as an insult. I mean, that's, you know, yeah as as I've always said, a good artist copy and great artist steal.
00:23:50
Speaker
a quote that I made up personally. Like, and I think like, It's literally impossible that this comic exists without Akira.
00:24:04
Speaker
I'd be really be interested to know. i don't think Frank Miller has ever said anything about the Akira. He's talked about Lone Wolf and Cub. I don't know if he's ever said anything about the Akira influence on this, but I would be really curious to know.
00:24:18
Speaker
Because there are so many like interesting...
00:24:26
Speaker
similarities, not even necessarily in plot, but in like setting and feel. yeah yeah Yeah. like that's That's what I'm saying. like i don't think I don't think he's ripping it off. I think it's a ah huge influence, as I think Lone Wolf and Cub is a huge influence on it.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah. I also, like as far as look, like because we talked about the difference in in artistic style ah between like Daredevil and this, And like ah a huge part of this was also influenced just by Frank researching samurai and ninjas for Daredevil. I i think I said Kazuhiro Otomo.
00:25:06
Speaker
It's Katsuhiro. Katsuhiro, yeah. yeah um But I also have to wonder, like as far as artistic style, if he was... i've I think Frank has talked about Mobius.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah, there's i mean there's a lot of Mobius in here, too. The photo of Jean Girard for Frank Miller. European comics, in particular, the work of Mobius. um Because like Mobius was doing a lot of this apocalyptic future kind of stuff, too.
00:25:41
Speaker
In the 70s, I think. And so you know it makes perfect sense that that would also be a huge influence on Yeah, the first his first art book, Mobius' first art book, came out in 1980.
00:25:58
Speaker
yeah You know Frank was reading that shit. Yeah. And again, you know this was a guy who was in New York, and he he it's not like he was in Sumter, South Carolina. like He had access to people who would have been like you know bringing books over to to sell in in Chinatown and Japantown and ah you know places like that. so yeah like He had access to it.
00:26:28
Speaker
For sure.
Analysis: Ambition vs. Convolution
00:26:31
Speaker
Here's the thing. Here's where I come down on this, I think. like it As we've said, but realizing that this came out in 1983, it is extraordinarily unique and ahead of its time for American comics.
00:26:51
Speaker
You know, talk about Japanese and European comics and their influence and all of that, but people in the United States wouldn't have been aware of that outside of very small circles that Frank was probably in.
00:27:05
Speaker
But we are talking about it 43 years later. you And I have seen so many versions of this same story do it so much better.
00:27:19
Speaker
Because like
00:27:23
Speaker
the storytelling of this, I hesitate to call it like a total mess, because it's not a total mess. But like it is very like you can tell that Frank is not quite the storyteller he would become a few years later.
00:27:41
Speaker
And there are parts of this that like deeply frustrate me. like so So many dialogue balloons over just all black panels.
00:27:55
Speaker
Which you know is a Frank Miller hallmark, I suppose. But yeah but like all the stuff where it's like Billy
00:28:04
Speaker
talking to the computer, talking to Virgo, it's all just like dialogue over black ah panels. And I don't know. I don't love that. It's a visual medium, Frank.
00:28:19
Speaker
I mean, here here's what I'll say. Many things can be true at the same time. Yeah. It is, i think, objectively true.
00:28:31
Speaker
This is impressive. It is in many ways virtuosic. it is oh It is a book that I can easily see being fucking mind-blowing.
00:28:42
Speaker
At the time, given what else was was out there. If you've never read anything like it, yeah. it's It's ahead of its time. It's frequently, honestly, pretty beautiful. There are a lot of pages I don't like.
00:28:55
Speaker
ah like I think the like a lot of the big ah establishing shots of the Aquarius building just kind of look like a bunch of squiggly lines.
00:29:06
Speaker
Well, I think that's a meant to show Virgo like taking increasingly more of not only the building, but the city over. Yeah. but like like it's that it's I feel like that could be clearer. There are things in this that are too clear, and there are things that could be a lot clearer.
00:29:28
Speaker
That last page of the first issue where the Ronin is coming up out of the sewers, like that's that's the shit. Yeah. like ah there's a but i will say this. Frank draws a great horse.
00:29:40
Speaker
it's It doesn't look like a real horse. it's It is very much a cartoon horse. It looks like the fucking What's Opera Dog horse drawn by Frank Miller. The first establishing shot of the Aquarius building is in number one.
00:29:59
Speaker
um and It already looks kind of like alien. It sort of looks like a big bug. Yeah, and it's contrasted with all the like you know very rectangular buildings of of the of New York in the 80s. Right. It's it's very – it's not angular. It's very – again, it's alien-looking. It's all ovals and circles and curves. yeah And like that's cool. And then as the series progresses, I think each issue has an establishing shot of the building and –
00:30:35
Speaker
As things progress, it gets increasingly more abstract and weird and big. And like again, i appreciate i think that's cool. I think that's a cool idea. I think i see what he's doing.
00:30:51
Speaker
um i just don't think... like Again, like there are parts of the story where like I feel like just having someone say something...
00:31:02
Speaker
to the effect of here's what's happening. Um, whereas like other things, like we get told about, like, I think in issue five, there's a part where one of the executive guys is just like, ah, yes, Billy was having dreams about a samurai. And, uh, then he became him. Like, he just like flat out says the whole thing about like, what is what has been going on for the past five issues. And like,
00:31:31
Speaker
I think there was probably a sense from an editor or someone that... I mean, the fact that you didn't get how explicit it was that this was all the big twist of the issue.
00:31:44
Speaker
i i Yes. like i i got I had a sense that this was all most likely happening in Billy's head. i didn't i don't know how I missed the thing about the TV show. um but ah like I kind of thought that that was left more open-ended, which I thought was perhaps cooler.
00:32:05
Speaker
yeah like Again, like i think it's true that it can be a very impressive piece of work, and also that I didn't really enjoy reading it.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help reading 43 years later. doesn't reading 43 years later. It doesn't help reading – Well, i specifically I was going to say it doesn't help.
00:32:30
Speaker
like in issue Like issue two being just chock-a-block with racial slurs. Really a lot of them. I will admit that that maybe checked me out of the book a bit where I wasn't – ah picking up on some of those details quite as much. I mean, if i can if I can peel back the curtain, I think this is the first time in the history of Comics Catch-Up that I have finished the book before you did. ah And you started it before I did.
00:33:01
Speaker
Ah, yes. I see now. it' ah in In fact, if I didn't know better, I think I was back in Tokyo in my youth watching my favorite television adventure program. Yeah. That's something from the... Television adventure program?
00:33:14
Speaker
That's something someone from the the Japanese company says, yeah. Yeah. Which I like, because it is like these guys came over, and the guy's like, yeah, we're just testing our cybernetics out on Goku. Would be... God, I would... The world where Frank Miller got super into Dragon Ball instead of Lone Wolf and Cub?
00:33:41
Speaker
Wild. I mean... That would have had to have been... like Frank would have had to have been 10 years younger, I think. When did Dragon Ball start? I guess Dragon Ball started later in the 80s.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, it started in 1984. So yeah, like it doesn't help that there's a lot of it that hasn't aged well. it It kind of doesn't help that it's so influential, and we've certainly read things by people who...
00:34:11
Speaker
were influenced by this. And it also doesn't help that I've specifically recently been reading Lone Wolf and Cub. Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is, and part of why some of the, like, a few of the details got, like, lost on me. Dragon Ball started in 84. That's what I, yeah, I said it started in 84.
00:34:32
Speaker
It's very wordy. Like, for such an art-driven book, or what you would think of as an art-driven book, There's a lot of talking. like And a lot and and like a lot of the dialogue is not really saying much. you know like You could cut so much dialogue out of this and still have the same story. I also think you could cut characters out of this. Like...
00:35:02
Speaker
It is so easy to get confused about who's who within the Aquarius Corporation. the The hippie guy who fucking sucks is an exposition machine. Yeah. Very obviously. Yeah. and that's And it's i mean it's annoying. i like I also think you could cut him out of the book completely.
00:35:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think the only thing about him is, like, he ends up being kind of the guy who's like, now now listen, samurai, this is the modern world, and you don't speak English, so I'll do all the talking. But, like, none of that really matters. Like, there's a whole part of it where he kind of does Yojimbo with these two, like, the... the the The white supremacists and and the ah like the Black Panthers.
00:36:02
Speaker
Which, you know, I mean, isn't racism on all sides bad? yeah Right, yeah. yeah yeah Frank. Francis. ah But, like, that part doesn't need to be in here.
00:36:18
Speaker
like that That part is ah superfluous. It's just like, i don't i don't know what it adds to the story other than like we get some some stuff of the Ronin killing some guys. And it's like, well, we already have this like giant corporation sending cyborg super soldiers to kill him. like Is that not...
00:36:39
Speaker
a more interesting version of this. I mean, I, I, I assume it's Frank saying that he thinking that he probably needed someone outside of the corporation to introduce the Ronin to the new world he's in Right. But
00:36:58
Speaker
i don't know. Like, ah Does it have to be all these people these people that constantly say slurs and call the Ronin a slur? And, like... I mean, that's Frank in the 80s, I guess. I mean, i mean that's that's Frank in the 80s. That's Alan Moore in the 80s. That's fucking...
00:37:19
Speaker
Biv Bam Pow comics aren't for kids in the 80s. Like, there's literally, I think it's maybe ah Len Wein has one of the quotes on the back of these. It's like, maybe now they're so they'll stop calling them comic books.
00:37:31
Speaker
And it's like, Len. Len, what are you doing? Buddy.
00:37:37
Speaker
Why do you hate the term comic books? I mean, you know, it's it's they're frequently not funny. But, yeah you know.
00:37:48
Speaker
It is what they're called. yeah what What else would you want to call them, Lin? Graphic novels, baby. Graphic novels? Ugh. it's Isn't it funny how like the tide has turned so much on the term graphic novels? At least among like us.
00:38:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean... I think people hear it it it's just instantly pretentious, right? It just instantly sounds pretentious. I mean, it is it is a better name for them.
00:38:19
Speaker
But it's like, we we call them comics, guys. Yeah. um Yeah, it is Len Wein who says, the standard by which all others will be judged all right. Maybe now they'll stop calling them comic books.
00:38:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's not great. Len. Buddy, you... Buddy, you made Wolverine. ah But, like, this is, like, all of the, not all of the problems, but like, a lot of the problems I have with this are, like, artifacts of its era where, like, you know, this is this is a mature reader's comic from 1983 that is marketed as being,
00:39:03
Speaker
you know Biff, Bam, Pow comics aren't just for kids. And the fact that that Frank's doing it you know three years before Dark Knight, three years before Watchmen, is is I think, you know, at least interesting.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like,
00:39:22
Speaker
we rag on Frank a lot for what I think is a good reason. I think we've got plenty of good reasons to rag on Frank.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. But also, i mean, i am slash was pretty fucking big Frank Miller fan.
00:39:46
Speaker
Like, i I really like the first maybe three Sin Cities. i you know i obviously love Batman Year One. ah i think Batman Year One kind of like, every time we talk about how it's maybe too high on the list, I fucking think about it again.
00:40:03
Speaker
You know? you know i mean It's pretty fucking good. It's great, yeah. Daredevil's good. like Born Again is good. ah me Without Fear is good. like I fucking love 300.
00:40:15
Speaker
i know that um that that might make me a fascist. i don't I mean, no, you can like that story and not be. But yeah, i like i here's the thing.
00:40:26
Speaker
and In all of those books, in all of those like Frank Miller masterworks, There is an economy of storytelling that this doesn't have. yeah This is maximalism.
00:40:38
Speaker
Yeah. And... Like, I don't... and That's fine. But I think Frank is better when he's saying less.
00:40:51
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think that' that's the magic of Frank Miller. Yeah. Like, is that... And again, this is fairly early in his career. i I think he, like so many of the the quotes on the back, like there's one about, there's one from Will Eisner talking about like, oh, I've been i've been ah watching his work on Daredevil. He's really good.
00:41:13
Speaker
Like, it's it's important to remember that this is before all that other stuff. Like, this is the first one. Yeah, I mean, it's after it's after Daredevil, but... It's during Daredevil, I think. In the middle of Daredevil? Yeah. i think I think this might be like right after he started writing Daredevil.
00:41:33
Speaker
You know, it's it's actually really funny. um There's a like a letter in... i think it's in Daredevil. It might be in FF.
00:41:45
Speaker
But there's like a letter someone writes... where he's like, oh, you know, Marvel marvel sucks now, and and you guys don't care about story, because all you're doing is letting these artists write books. You know you put Frank Miller on Daredevil, you put Walt Simonson on Thor, you put John Byrne on Fantastic Four. All you care about is artists. And it's like, ooh, history did not treat you kindly, bud. No, that that, yes, that was not, that didn't age well.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
But, like, I think... I will never ding something for wearing its ah wearing its influences on its sleeves, obviously. Like, if anyone's read comics I've written, obviously. i do not mind stealing.
00:42:36
Speaker
But... I... i think... I think we get a better synthesis of Frank's influences. like you know Comparing this to 300, I think, which is 10 years later, you know yeah is but you like this feels like it's ahead of its time. does feel like it's the same guy years later.
00:43:06
Speaker
I mean, even even Dark Knight Returns three years later is a far more... like It can get pretty wordy at times. and And it is doing a lot of different things in one story.
00:43:23
Speaker
But not all at the same time. Yeah. And I mean, and i'm I'm looking at sort of the the bibliography now, and Frank's whole run, like his first run on Daredevil, ended in February of 83. Yeah.
00:43:36
Speaker
oh
Ronin's Place in Miller's Career
00:43:37
Speaker
and so this so Okay, so this was after that first Daredevil. This was after that. He does Wolverine with Claremont in 82. And then this is kind of like the the next big thing that he does.
00:43:51
Speaker
yeah And i think I don't think it's as good as Wolverine or most of the Daredevil run.
00:44:00
Speaker
But definitely more ambitious. But definitely more ambitious. Like, definitely, you you cannot fault its ambition. i it Maybe it's reach extend its you know its its reach ah extends beyond its grasp. yeah There we go. I could not remember the right words.
00:44:20
Speaker
i can I can respect it. I didn't like it. like I'm never going to read it again. i don't regret reading it, but like I didn't enjoy it. I think ah Walt Simonson's blurb is so funny because it's kind of like It's not exactly praise, but it's descriptive.
00:44:43
Speaker
Because ah Walt Simonson says, a rip-snort-and-tail of the post-World War III blues. If you're looking for peace and quiet, look elsewhere. Which is exactly right. Yeah. yeah
00:44:58
Speaker
it's It's wild that there are multiple people. Like, Klaus Janssen says it, ah and you know Len Wein says it, and I i think Claremont says it, or and Ellison says it, that this is the new standard in comics.
00:45:12
Speaker
Which is wild to me. I mean, at the time... I get it, but like... I mean, y'all read Wolverine? Y'all read Wolverine 1 through 4? That shit owns.
00:45:24
Speaker
I mean, already clearly like clearly these are guys, some of the some of these guys who are quoted here in 1983 were not reading like European comics. you know like but Maybe they were. i how could How could they not be?
00:45:39
Speaker
You know? maybe i mean, Lynn Ween was about to edit Watchmen. ah in a couple years yeah yeah
00:45:53
Speaker
I like how Archie Goodwin gets like a full paragraph quote, but the end of it is, let's not beat around the bush. Buy it. It's fun. that's That's an editor as hell, man. i love Archie Goodwin.
00:46:05
Speaker
i Fun is not the word I would use, though.
00:46:10
Speaker
I think there's parts of it that are fun. There are parts of it that are fun, and there are parts of it that are really not fun.
00:46:20
Speaker
All right, let's find this. I think we can make it. And if you're mad at us right now, I think we've been very even-handed. I think so, too. Look, maybe you read Rona a long time ago and you forgot that it's full of slurs.
00:46:32
Speaker
it But it really is. It's a lot. And it soured me on it so quickly. You're arguing about which slur is appropriate. Yeah, man.
00:46:44
Speaker
That's Frank, baby. the The hippie guy immediately starts calling the Ronin a slur and then will not stop calling him that. Yeah. Also, boy, these leads these chuds, these cannibalistic humanoid underdwellers, they are.
00:47:03
Speaker
There to be another, just another group for the Ronin to kill so that he can save Casey. Yeah. So that she can like make goo-goo eyes at him and instantly fall in love with him. Well, she falls in love with him because she's being mind-controlled.
00:47:21
Speaker
by By Billy. yeah yeah like because he Because she becomes part of the the fantasy. Right, yeah. And like there's there's a there's a sequence there's a sequence that's more interesting than it is good.
00:47:35
Speaker
um Because it's not quite pulled off with the clarity That you want it to be where Casey's fully in the hallucination of a bunch of dudes from Lone Wolf and Cub showing up and having this big fight.
00:47:55
Speaker
And then we cut back to the reality of it being like all these cyborgs. All these like yeah robots. yeah There's a couple of times where that happens. so he's And all of that's from Casey's POV. So like he's pulling her into the fantasy and kind of controlling her and putting her into this role. well there's There's definitely that whole thing about her being like, I want to kill you, but why can't i yeah Or like, why do I feel this way?
00:48:20
Speaker
Since I also hate you. I mean, it's got... And it's not... And I will say, as far as that part goes, I think it's more interesting than gross.
00:48:31
Speaker
Because it is, like, part of the whole sequence of all of this being Billy unconsciously at the behest of this supercomputer restructuring the world to be his fantasy.
00:48:49
Speaker
and Yeah. And I think it makes, like, I think Casey is an interesting character. Yeah. Like, she has a lot of loyalty to Aquarius and to her husband.
00:49:03
Speaker
And also, she is a warrior.
00:49:07
Speaker
And ultimately, her way of dealing with both Billy and Virgo and all of it is to make a samurai feel disgraced.
00:49:22
Speaker
Like, her kind of tricking him into Kimming Seppuku is like... It's good. It's good. like that's ah That's a good resolution to the story, I think.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah like that's one of the better parts. yeah And I think she is like...
00:49:45
Speaker
You know, like, Frank's track record of writing women it pretty spotty. hey
Ranking and Listener Engagement
00:49:58
Speaker
But, and like, I think this kind of female character of his, like, she's, you know, she's she's not dissimilar from, like, Elektra. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:09
Speaker
and And I think that's like usually like the best kind of character he often writes, um or wrote back then. ah you know Ten years after this, he would get lost in the Bermuda Triangle. so Yeah. did you Did you know we have not ranked 300?
00:50:28
Speaker
That's surprising. That's surprising. We have Amazing Spider-Man number 300. Yeah. yeah but We don't have ah frank ji Frank Miller's 300. Funny story about this. i should maybe save this until we rank 300, but like ah who knows when we're going to do that. um My mom, when I was a kid, like when i was in high school, like came home one day, and she was like, hey, ah a guy I teach with had a comic, and it's by ah like one of the guys you like.
00:50:56
Speaker
um Have you read Frank Miller's Zook? And I was like, what? No. And she was like, yeah. like And she pulls it out. um Because if you look at the cover to 300, boy, it does kind of look like a Z. That three does kind of look like a Z. Yeah. yeah
00:51:14
Speaker
I did want to see Frank Miller's Zoo. If only it was called if if only it was called Zoo. Yeah. um The movie logo also kind of looks like Zoo. yeah that Boy, that movie, it really misses the point.
00:51:30
Speaker
All you need to know about that movie is that it it fucked up the line, this is Sparta. like yeah yeah Yeah. but you know that's That's going to happen when the original creator is lost in the Bermuda Triangle.
00:51:43
Speaker
We have Alec or Assassin at 149. It ain't that good. It ain't that good. The the the the the the director of three hundred the movie um also has a history of missing the point.
00:51:55
Speaker
e yeah or I also made a Watchmen movie that missed the point. And a Superman movie that missed the point. Yeah.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah. oh I wonder who else... like Who's the next person who is involved in the Dawn of the Dead remake who's going to get to do the entire DC Universe in movies? a Great question. um oh We have Man Without Fear at $6.98. I like that more than I like this.
00:52:28
Speaker
um We have Sin City, The Hard Goodbye at 861. I like that more than I like this. yeah Hard Boiled is at 1024, and I think of all the stuff, this is the closest to it.
00:52:41
Speaker
I think Hard Boiled is better, though. Yes, I agree. yeah ah And then we have All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder at number 1656, which I do think is not as good as this.
00:52:53
Speaker
I would agree. I would agree. I think this is probably like in the 1300s, probably. Alright, at 1300 thirteen hundreds probably all right thirteen hundred we have um We have Chuck Dixon and Alcatano's Detective Comics Annual No. 7, which is the Elseworlds story where... i have Unknown Soldier at No. 1300. I have that at 1301. Oh, wait. What did we rank twice? I forgot to take it out.
00:53:18
Speaker
You... It was... Yes. I'll go back and find it. There was a book we ranked twice that ah we took one out of. So you you ah you have one more on your list currently than I have. ah I'll go back. There was something we ranked twice that we had to unrank.
00:53:35
Speaker
um I'll figure that out. Anyway, i think
00:53:43
Speaker
of ah Unknown Soldier and that Detective Comics annual. I think we're in the neighborhood. Of the Thanoscopter. It was Thanoscopter, yes. It was Thanoscopter.
00:53:56
Speaker
And i took I took out the lower one. I got rid of the lower one.
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah, okay. So i am I am deleting that. Okay, we have Omega the Unknown and the Max at 1297 and 1298. This is exactly as good as those. I think the Max is better. Okay, the Max? Okay, fine. Great. The Max is better. Okay.
00:54:22
Speaker
but i mean youre But yes, like you're you're in the neighborhood. Yeah, this is it. we're We're here. I think the Max is probably like as ambitious in its own way as this book.
00:54:33
Speaker
Very much so. it's it's It's as weird in its way.
00:54:41
Speaker
I would read that again. i would put this above Ambush Bug's Stocking Stuffer, which we have at 1306. But we did not care for that one. I mean, I liked it more than you. I really didn't.
00:54:54
Speaker
um Sojourn, Cross Gen Comics Sojourn is at 1305. I think if this is better than that, too. It's certainly more ambitious. I i let's think the Eltingville Club is a million times more enjoyable.
00:55:09
Speaker
Okay. This is the new number 1305. Ronan, Miller, 1983. Matt, we've read lot of comic books. Yeah. matt we've read a lot of comic books yeah
00:55:23
Speaker
It's true.
00:55:29
Speaker
this this ah This is the rare show where you're hearing my cats. ah so it And my dogs. yeah They're they're loud loud little guys.
00:55:40
Speaker
ah It's time for them to get fed, so I guess we better wrap this thing up. But Ronan is at the new number 1305. I think we were very... i think we were very It's like not in a part of the list where the comics are bad.
00:55:57
Speaker
I mean... It's not too bad yet by that point. It's not. It's not too bad yet. by that it's not it's it's it's not a bad yet and you know We have comics on the list.
00:56:10
Speaker
about twothirds of the list
00:56:14
Speaker
maybe even three-fourths the list, is like good to okay. And a very small portion is bad. But I think we were very fair to this comic. i like If we had read it when we were 13, maybe we would have different feelings about it. But like we said, we've read a lot of stuff that does what this does and was clearly influenced by it, but...
00:56:42
Speaker
That I think pulls off the the story part of it better. Yeah, and I mean, we've also read a lot of the stuff that influenced this. Yes. And a lot of people, when they first read this, had not done that.
00:56:56
Speaker
ah Which also, I think, yeah, was telling. I mean, that I would have absolutely read this. Like, i I have no qualms with anybody who read this in 1983. I was like, oh, Frank Miller's going to big fucking deal.
00:57:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, just on an artistic level. Yeah. yeah um I say put Sarah Polly in charge of the DC Universe.
00:57:23
Speaker
She's the next – she was the star of the Dawn of the Dead remake.
00:57:29
Speaker
Put her in charge. Good call, Matt. um Okay. Good call. If you would like to suggest something for us to read on Comics Catch-Up, you can do it by emailing us at warrocketpodcast at gmail.com. That is also where you can um send us listener questions or other stuff you want to know about the show, or you know drop us a line about the show.
00:57:51
Speaker
You can contribute to the show, donate to the show, help us continue living living indoors, as Benito would say. by going to patreon.com slash warrocketajax and kicking in as little as a dollar a month to make sure that we do these specials monthly, that we do the Every Story Ever specials monthly, and that we do the weekly War Rocket Ajax show.
00:58:14
Speaker
Also, if we reach 500 paid patrons, Chris will read every issue of the Jim Ballant Catwoman run. That's 77 issues plus specials and annuals.
00:58:25
Speaker
ah And we will call it Talent Show, and he will tell me about it. And I think we'll rank it. Because, like, why not? let's Yeah, wellby let's do it. yeah um We are currently at 467 paid patrons, so we are 33 away from making that happen, from making Talent Show happen.
00:58:42
Speaker
It's impending. It is within reach. It is within reach. Terrifying. but ah We're on Discord. You can ask us for an invitation to our Discord and join over there, so Get in touch with us and and ask for an invitation. You can join the Discord. We're on Tumblr, warrocketpodcast.tumblr.com. We are also on Blue Sky. warrocketajax.com is our Blue Sky handle.
00:59:11
Speaker
Our website is warrocketajax.com, and as every episode of the show that we've ever done, warrocketwiki.com is the fan run repository of all the information you could want or need to know about this show. if you want to find me and myself, go to mattdwilson.net to find links to my comics, my books, my other podcasts, and my Blue Sky account, which is pretty much the only social media I use anymore.
00:59:32
Speaker
Instagram, rarely. Chris, where can people find you? Everybody can find me by going to the-isb.com. ah You can read things that I've written there, and if you like them, you could even hire me to write more things that you could read.
00:59:49
Speaker
There's contact information on that website. Sounds pretty good to me. i think anyone would be lucky to have me. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back in July with another episode, with another Comics Catch-Up. I think we decided what we were going to do, though I can't remember what it is right now.
01:00:12
Speaker
Me either. we'll think We'll remember it and do it. ah Anyway, thanks for listening, everybody. See you next time. And until then... Good catching