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Week 13 Review Packers Declaw Lions
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Aloha and welcome to OPE! On this episode, we break down the Packers victory over the rival Lions in Detroit! We talk about the fresh, stale and moldy moments from the heated battle!
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Thanksgiving Game Highlights
00:00:21
Speaker
Aloha and welcome back to this beginning of the holiday season episode of the Ahana Packers Edition podcast. As the Packers have gifted Green Bay fans with a glorious win on Thanksgiving to set up the stretch run towards the playoffs. And if Packers fans thought that the season has been a little bit of a grind or aggravating to this point, it's going to get really interesting moving forward because the Bears continue to not lose and the Packers are keeping pace at this point. A couple of things have gone in their favor so far on Sunday. You know, we're recording this Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening. So, you know, some results have come in. But the main thing is that the Packers have put themselves in position where if they get this win against Chicago come next Sunday, they will be first in the NFC North, potentially first overall in the NFC. But beside all that point, we have a big Thanksgiving game to review. And Joe?
00:01:15
Speaker
Did your Thanksgiving meal taste a little better after the Packers won on Thanksgiving? Well, I'm going to be honest. I don't do the big Thanksgiving stuff. I've worked holidays for the last 15, 20 years.
00:01:31
Speaker
So holidays don't mean the same to me as they do to a lot of other people. It's just another workday for me. But yeah, I was able to watch the game before going in. It was a wonderful game.
Game Strategies and Key Performances
00:01:42
Speaker
there were really i mean there was a little bit of fear about maybe the the lions coming back but the packers really held them down for the full game there was there was really no moment where it looked like the packers couldn't handle it like i said later in the game it looked like maybe There was a chance, and we'll get into it a little bit more, but a couple guys were getting some yardage that it kind of made you worried a little bit that he's going to break one and the Packers are going to be in trouble. But yeah, it was a hell of a game. It really was. I mean, it was a lot better, a lot different than what the score shows it.
00:02:28
Speaker
Exactly. I know fans on both sides will say, well, if this one thing goes a little different than this, whatever. But the main thing that comes out of this one is, and Andy Herman made a big point of this on his game review, is that this game was not spread by a lot in terms of stats or there were no what would be deemed a turnover in this game, number of plays ran, all that kind of stuff. There wasn't a great margin there. The difference in the game is Green Bay took advantage of and made the most of their fourth down opportunities. And the Lions, Green Bay either stuffed it or dropped the ball quite literally on theirs. So yeah.
00:03:09
Speaker
You know, like you look at the games last year, that was kind of the difference in those games last year against the Lions, where Green Bay just couldn't buy a fourth down stop against the Lions in the two games in the 2024 season.
00:03:23
Speaker
And on Thanksgiving, it was the, you know, I don't want to say it was the difference, but it was one of the key factors. But, you know, I'm not going to go too much farther because that'll get into our talking point. So let's just get into the flow of our episode.
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah, let me grab my trusty buttons. My trusty buttons. If I hit the right one this time. Fresh cheese. All right, you want to go first?
00:03:49
Speaker
Well, I mean, there's the main low-hanging fruit that I suppose we can just knock off the list, and that's Dontavian Wicks. He really stepped up, whether he had shoes on or not, and produced a lot for what the Packers needed. And this is what I was kind of talking about with Dontavian earlier when we were doing our season preview and stuff like that.
00:04:13
Speaker
If he can get his hands to work, he's going to be a top receiver. And that's been the question we've had on him since he was drafted, if he can get his hands to work.
00:04:28
Speaker
So far this season, don't have it pulled up to what his percentages are, but when he's healthy, when he's out on the field, his hands have really been showing up.
00:04:39
Speaker
He really stepped in. He was basically... Jordan's main target for the most part of the game because he was doing what he needed to do. I'm happy for him. This is a career game for Obviously, you wish he would have got six more yards out of it, but he went six receptions, 94 yards, and two touchdowns with a long of 30 on seven targets. So really, there was only one, and can't even remember. It's been few days.
00:05:10
Speaker
if the drop was on him or if that was just a tight window and could have went either way. No, no, don't. He didn't have a drop or at least not what I would have deemed a drop. I think it was just, I think it was one of those where kind of,
00:05:25
Speaker
It was sort of like almost a throwaway, not a throwaway, but like it was a tight window throw for Love, kind of one of those situations. It wasn't a, I wouldn't deem that play as a drop. Like you said, so far this season, one drop.
00:05:37
Speaker
So, you know, his drop percentage is at 2.4%. His catch percentage, so, you know, when you divide his receptions by the number of targets, he's at...
00:05:47
Speaker
So he's catching five out of every eight balls that are thrown his way, which is a pretty good ratio for any receiver in the NFL. And like you said, I tweeted this out after the game, but...
00:05:59
Speaker
Love and LaFleur have made no secrets to what they think of Tay's ceiling in terms of how, you know, throughout his rookie season, he was getting opportunities to make plays through all the struggles he dealt with last year. know, they were working to get him back in the flow of the offense. And, you know, they really did just keep pumping targets to him. And you and I both said it on the show last year that it seemed like that San Fran game right before Thanksgiving was sort of the turning point for him where it seemed like he kind of got his mojo back. You know, he did feel like he had the yips a little bit through the first, like the second quarter of the season last year in 2024. And he's been pretty lights out. You know, he had that one drop against the Eagles. And, you know, if you're out there, you got to make plays, but you kind of understand if he's a little bit out of rhythm because that was his first game back from injury. But
00:06:50
Speaker
Like you said, he was absolute nails on Thanksgiving and they needed every one of his receptions. They were all key. You know, his first touchdown was on was on a fourth down play.
00:07:00
Speaker
was a reception. know, I forget it was Chris Long on his show. He goes, the only people who are complaining are in Detroit, maybe some people in Chicago.
00:07:10
Speaker
said everyone else knows that's a catch. It was close. I mean, it really was. But for him to be able to maintain that, and I was really worried with the way the refs have been all season that they would have just said, no, it's not a catch. But I mean, for him to have it in hand with one foot down already and manage to get the other one, that was a really big time catch. So I mean, I was worried about it.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, like you said. I'm glad they were able to figure out. When I saw the right foot was down before they showed, you know, when they showed the reverse angle, was okay, I think so. But I agree with you. There was that like, ugh, like these refs don't know what the hell they're looking at. What are they going to do? In the back of my mind, I was kind of like, you do owe us because you screwed us on the play before to Watson where – Brian Bradts clearly pushes Watson down before he turns to look for the ball. We'll get into that when we get into the moldy part of this. But just a great game. His second touchdown, joked on Twitter that Love will probably be honest and tell you that was like a C-plus throw from him. He pulled Wicks away from the goal line and made it a much harder reception than it should have been. But determination and will got him across the goal line there. He had the long scene play. He was one of the guys with a catch after Jordan had, you know, there was a Jordan was a little off after the start of the game. And then Watson had a couple like dropish plays. And then Wicks kind of came through to, you know, help reset the table and get things going again. And then the game clinching play where, like you said, you can just tell when a guy's in a zone, it's their day kind of thing. And, you know,
00:08:51
Speaker
Branch on his back, no shoe, didn't matter. went up Moss Branch and came down with that reception. So like you said, just a really great day at the office for Wicks. And we'll just dovetail that into the guy throwing the ball on Thursday.
Jordan Love's Quarterback Style
00:09:06
Speaker
Jordan had an excellent game. Yes, he probably could have had a fifth touchdown if he was Yeah, and I don't totally blame him for the miss to Melton. I think what happened there, to me, the way I looked at it is he tried to make the perfect throw after getting out of the pocket because I think he was concerned that there would be someone coming downhill at Melton. And everyone's like, oh, just loft it up to But I was like, he doesn't know he has that space. He knows that there's someone behind him. He can see that Jack Campbell is crashing down
00:09:38
Speaker
on top from the second level. And I think Jordan in his mind is like, I cannot get Melton hung out to dry or worse. This ball comes out weird and it hangs up and the safety can come and make a play on it. I think he thought,
00:09:52
Speaker
I'll keep it low if it pulls him to the ground, whatever kind of thing. And I think he just pulled the string on it a little too much. But, you know, we're picking nits on that. There's probably four or five drops amongst other, you know, Christian had the Dobbs game from a couple weeks ago where, you know, he had some impact plays, obviously some big impact plays. But also there are several where Christian would like to have a few back. But,
00:10:16
Speaker
Love, it's taken me this long to me, and Marisol always jokes as much as she loves football that she always jokes with the put it in basketball terms for me. And the way that love that I've settled on with Jordan is he is the walking embodiment of you miss all 100% of the shots you refuse to take.
00:10:38
Speaker
And does it get him into trouble at times? Yes. You don't throw the pick sixes against the Rams and the Lions that he had last season without having just the balls, the lack of, don't want to say lack of care, but the screw it attitude, the screw it, I'm going to make a play attitude he has.
00:10:57
Speaker
But you also don't get that fourth down throw to Wicks. You don't get the deep touchdown to Watson. You don't get the touchdown to Wicks. You don't get those kind of throws if you're not – if you want to make an omelet, you have to be willing to break a few eggs. And between those two adages, that's what Jordan's game is. He's going to toe the line. He's not doing it to be – reckless without a bandit. Like, that's not his game either. But it's that controlled chaos that he's, like, always towing the line of and figuring out what to do.
00:11:30
Speaker
He probably could have easily had over 300, maybe 350 yards if Watson's able to come down with a few of the catches, the ones he wasn't interviewed on. And if he completes that throw to Melton. But to still have a four touchdown, zero interception game, you know, 60% completion isn't the same as it used to be. But he wasn't...
00:11:51
Speaker
throwing many gimmies on Thursday either. Everything was like pretty decently down the field or into tight coverage. And so just a stellar day at the off. And I think just one sack where I don't think it was really his fault either. Like that was the one where, no, that was the one where. According to ESPN, there's no sack. Okay. No sacks. I'm thinking of last week. So yeah.
00:12:14
Speaker
but yeah, like just in a gut, in a had to have it game, you got the best of Jordan and you can't ask for anything more from that.
00:12:24
Speaker
For sure. Well, I mean, you could always ask for more, but the likelihood of getting it is beyond that. But I've got to thinking over the, for a bit that he kind is in between a Favre and Rogers where he's a little bit more cautious with the ball now, but he still has his moments where he's going to just laser it and say, go get it.
00:12:49
Speaker
And, and that, In a way, that's kind of what you want in a quarterback. I mean, don't get me wrong. I appreciate everything that Rodgers did. Rodgers is one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. But there were times that he didn't trust his receiver to make the play on the ball.
00:13:06
Speaker
And whatever the reasons were for that, fine. But... sometimes you have to have trust in your receivers to make a play.
00:13:18
Speaker
I don't think the first Wicks touchdown happens if it's Rogers because just, it, it's not a gimme and it's not one that, and that's not to say that Rogers hasn't made those type of plays. I mean, I think of all the toe taps that Jordy Love has done, the one to wicks was not a guarantee on anything so and again i don't think it happens if it's a farve either because farvid had overthrown and it would have been intercepted and we'd all been pissed off and and that too but and so would you like i think the difference between love and rogers is rogers would make that throw like you said if it was to a jordy at the peak of his powers a davante at the peak of his powers
00:14:06
Speaker
Jordan will make that throw to anyone that's in his color. And that's the difference. Yeah. I disagree on that a little bit because would have had to been in a place where he knew Jordy could have got it.
00:14:19
Speaker
That's why we had the toe touches that we had with Jordy or Devante or stuff like that, because he would have put it. This was just thrown and was like, OK, Wix, this is you. This is your time to shine. You have to make this play. As they say, like with the pitcher, it's like it probably caught more of the plate than he wanted it to kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:38
Speaker
I agree there. Yeah. But it just, he played well. I thought, and this can kind go into my next
LaFleur's Coaching and Game Management
00:14:47
Speaker
one. LaFleur called a hell of a game with it too. Did he get a little conservative at times? Yeah, but there were more times he wasn't conservative than Yeah. I mean, obviously going forward on, it's kind of funny because the week before the Packers beat the Vikings, they went down and did the skull, you know, in the end zone. Don't worry. I'm trying to work on some merchandise ideas for that too.
00:15:10
Speaker
But this week, They kind of took the play out of the Lions playbook by going for it on four downs and stuff like that, which, as everybody knows, that's the Dan Campbell calling card is we're just going to go for it. We're just going to go for it. We're not punting. We're just going to go for it. So it's kind of funny that the Packers are doing things to they're finally opening up.
00:15:36
Speaker
You know what I mean? They're they're finally doing stuff. We know what we are. Yeah. And we're going to make you pay on things. So I thought the floor called a hell of a game. There were some things here there that it's like, yeah, you know, you could have done that a little bit differently. But overall, I agree. Like, yeah, like, I think this is two weeks in a row that LaFleur has passed with with flying colors and like gold stars, whatever. Because like you said, and what I what I fully recognize is he won these two games in the exact way that they needed to be won.
00:16:15
Speaker
We talked about it after the Minnesota game that Some people say, you can't look forward. You absolutely have to look forward to Thursday because it's such a short turnaround. And these are two division games that you've got to figure out how to win. And LeFleur, I don't want to say that he went in thinking that he was going to be able to do it in three yards and a cloud of dust. But once he recognized that they could score enough points going three yards and a cloud of dust, and Minnesota could not...
00:16:45
Speaker
Obviously, the muff punt touchdown sequence, that obviously makes things a lot easier. But still, he recognized that Minnesota wasn't really doing anything on offense and that taking care of the football, shortening the game, Jordan's a little banged up.
00:17:01
Speaker
You don't have Jacobs because you're saving him for Thanksgiving. You're down a bunch of receivers and stuff. I appreciate that in that sense. And the weather wasn't great.
00:17:13
Speaker
You froze at like an amazing moment that I think I'm going to have to clip because you kind of look like that guy from Ancient Aliens. But as I was saying, LaFleur gets all the credit for recognizing that, you know, you want to get out of that Minnesota game as quickly and as healthy as you can. You still win by three scores. Like we said, it wasn't the most glamorous three score win, but You know, 23 to 6, it's a 17-point win. You control the game. You really dominate almost all the statistical errors, including the scoreboard.
00:17:48
Speaker
And then on Thanksgiving, he's like, I know what Detroit is. I know what Detroit is going to do. And my best defense is to match fire with fire and say that, okay, like... Dan's going to treat every third and minus and less than five as a go for it or every fourth and less than five as a go for it situation. We saw that a couple of Thanksgivings ago where they ran the fake punt that really set off the landslide in that game back in 2023. And so LaFleur is like, all right, like if you're going to play that card, I will play that card too. And I think my offense against your defense is a better matchup than your offense against my defense. And for, you know, we, we've just ripped our hair out the past few years at how like Detroit has converted a bunch of these fourth downs against the Packers at absolute critical moments, whether they've been for touchdowns or to continue drives that have led to touchdowns.
00:18:42
Speaker
So be it. Like even the game in Detroit last year, Green Bay had a chance to stop Detroit on downs. They don't. Detroit keeps their drive alive, goes, kicks the game winning field goal with no time left on the clock.
00:18:55
Speaker
And so before you go on, just to touch on that a little bit, how was talking about, you know, kind of doing. sticking it to the teams just looking at it right now green bay was three for three for fourth down conversions detroit was over two yep and that was your like i said it's not the reason you won but it's a major difference in the game because you know these two teams played a rel you know played relatively even in terms of number of plays yardage i think there were like three plays seven yards or some shit like that and
00:19:26
Speaker
You know, that was that you... And two of your fourth downs score touchdowns. The other fourth down converts end of game. You know, it gets you to kneel out the clock situation. Also,
00:19:38
Speaker
The way LeFleur called this game, I understand that you can't go, you know, the butterfly effect, all that shit. But for everyone screaming about the whole timeout false start thing, I truly think LeFleur was going for it no matter what. I think he understood that field goals are not going to win you this game.
00:19:59
Speaker
And I think he would have drawn up a play that would have been just, you know... You can't run the exact play they ran because it is a quick hitter. You know, they basically ran it for both the Dobbs touchdown and the Wicks touchdown. Same concept, but similar concepts. But I think LeFleur knew that, like, I've got to get touchdowns every time we touch the low red zone. We can't be settling for sub-30-yard field goals in this game. That's just not going to get it done this week. And so, and like I said, that...
00:20:28
Speaker
Penalty timeout grant. That did not score the touchdown for the Packers. The Packers still had to convert fourth down. Yes, it was five yards closer. All that kind of crap. But...
00:20:39
Speaker
you know, for everyone saying like, Oh, they gave them four points. No, they didn't like green Bay very could have easily still not scored on fourth down. And then you're, you're, you're, you're forget your plus, you know, they're Oh, it's a four point swing. was if green Bay doesn't score, it's a, it's a minus three point swing for green Bay. So like tough shit, you know, them's the breaks, whatever you want to put on it.
00:21:01
Speaker
but yeah, I agree with you. LeFleur absolutely deserves his flowers. And to add on that, the spiciness he had at the press conference when asked about the timeout, no timeout.
00:21:14
Speaker
I see people getting mad at that and stuff. And I'm like, what do you want him to say? This isn't that stupid of the values commercial, the coach, I touched the ball kind of thing and shit like that. And he was making a joke.
00:21:27
Speaker
I mean, yeah, he's got – we all rag on him because he's so dry-humored in that. just – It was a joke. Get over it. To me, it is up there with the 2000, think it's 2000 or 2001 when the 49ers came back and beat the Giants. And there was that like, oh, like, was that a penalty or whatever? And they're asking Steve Mariucci and Mooch looks at the reporter and goes...
00:21:55
Speaker
Bummer. That was his response. That was like the same. I'm like, what do you want him to say? Like, there's, there's nothing he's going to say in that instance. That's going to like not piss off a non green Bay fan. Every green bench green Bay fan should have loved it. So yeah, whatever. It's a total, whatever. I love seeing that from Lafleur. Cause like you said, like we always get the same adages, the same things that say, which it gets aggravating, but all coaches fall into their, like, the eras of the Jim Mora seniors and, like, with Diddley Poo and stuff. That's over. Like, guys don't come up with creative shit like that anymore. It's like, this is my playbook. And, you know, even, like, people are like, oh, but Belichick. I'm like, Belichick was just grouchy. Like, it's not like he said anything. He just stood there and was grouchy in the postgame. So, like, I don't know.
00:22:46
Speaker
I'm totally fine with it. And yeah, like, like I said, he's not going to do the fucking honesty, spread it commercial bullshit. Like, no, like that's crap. But yeah, great, great job by LaFleur. I get it. Like, but that's the thing is like, you know, some people are like, oh, like you're just saying that because his fourth downs were terrible.
00:23:09
Speaker
That's not it. We've been ragging on the floor for months that it's like, you need to play to what this team does. And like, you have this defense that you should be rewarding them with multiple score leads so they can go and rush the quarterback.
00:23:24
Speaker
But by being like the, oh no, I'm trusting my defense. Like, no, you're handcuffing them because like, yes, they're good, but it's like, okay, we're trusting you defense, but also we only have a three score lead for two and a half quarters. Like, it's like, what do you want us to do with it the whole game? So I appreciate that. And you said it, we've been ragging on him for his conservative play call. You know, why do you think they lost the Browns game? Why do you think they lost the Panthers game? Why do you think they tied the Dallas game?
00:23:56
Speaker
The Eagles game. Now the Eagles game is looking worse and worse with the way the Eagles have been playing. It's the conservativeness. Well, now he's not coaching conservative and you're still ragging on him. It's like, you can't have your cake and eat it too. And I joked in one of our threads, our Twitter message threads that at some point we'll do the, why haven't you been doing that the whole time? But honestly, will turn to that. That's my version of it right there. Yeah, we won't turn fully into the skin on that one unless he reverts to this pre-detroit game version of himself. But yeah, the main thing is we finally saw it.
00:24:33
Speaker
You can say whatever
Defensive Dynamics and Micah Parsons Impact
00:24:34
Speaker
you want. The main thing is in a game that truly mattered, we saw LaFleur pull out all the stops, go down swinging, down to the last bullet, all that kind of stuff.
00:24:44
Speaker
And it was great to see. The other side of the ball who deserves a gold star is the most obvious one. It's Micah Parsons for just absolutely dismantling the game. You know,
00:25:00
Speaker
I'll get into it with some stales and some moldy concerns and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope everyone understands that, like, how special and supremely talented Parsons is because, you know, everyone wants to only focus on nobody but Micah is doing something.
00:25:21
Speaker
Yes, you want to see Rashawn, Inigbari, Wyatt, Brooks, Brinson, Stackhouse, Lucas when he's in there.
00:25:31
Speaker
You want to see those guys produce more. But at the same time, the fact that Micah's doing things while everyone else isn't, you also have to view that in the, that's what makes that guy special. Like, that is one of those where there is a two-way street on it. Like, yes, you want everyone else to take advantage of his presence, be more impactful, blah, blah, blah.
00:25:53
Speaker
But the fact that this dude... Everyone knows that they should have a magnifying glass on and the spotlight should be on him. Like, this is the guy I tweeted after the game. Like, it's not just the don't let him beat you. It's the don't let him destroy you. He's gonna win his. He's gonna have plays and stuff. And, like, the games where he gets shut out are few and far between.
00:26:16
Speaker
In a game where it felt like they got in Goff's head early, even on their first touchdown drive, I said it. I was like, they are so close to getting bad Goff because, you know, he whiffed on his first three throws.
00:26:29
Speaker
And then the touchdown drive, yes, he had two big completions that converted third downs. But both of those throws were like an inch from being... of overthrow potentially tip pass interception kind of situation like those were not confident throws like both times williams and uh kennedy they both had to stretch their maximum their maximum arm length to pull those passes in if either of those you know as much as we talk about the fourth down situation stuff if those two passes don't happen this game is completely different because then it's like oh everything is high coming out of golf's hand he doesn't look comfortable back there he's uh he's unsettled this pass rush is getting to him but because those two plays are completed the game takes on it you know the game goes down the route it does detroit gets back in the game it's 10 you know they're
00:27:22
Speaker
Green Bay is always able to push it back to a two-score lead, but Detroit just seems to be able to answer back. And then when the game gets into its crunch time moments and Parsons just shuts the door in Detroit's face almost single-handedly to certain degrees, that's the mark of a special player. And, you know...
00:27:43
Speaker
Like we said, the only concern Packers fans should have had about this deal is if the back injury was any kind of long-term issue. That was literally the only thing. And you can't, like, yes, you can always worry that he could get some kind of massive injury. But that's true for any player who steps out on the field.
00:28:04
Speaker
Like Tucker. Like Tucker Kraft. But... This was on a Hall of Fame trajectory before getting to Green Bay. And nothing does, unless it's something off-field or his career just ends today,
00:28:17
Speaker
Nothing else is going to stop him from getting there because he is that special of a player. This is back-to-back weeks where he is almost like, my dad's a Steelers fan. He talks about it with TJ Watt where it's like, that's a guy who can just summon game-changing play almost at will kind of thing.
00:28:35
Speaker
And Micah has that capability in his back pocket. And you saw it against Minnesota. And everyone's like, it's Minnesota. They're not that, you know, that's a broken team, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:47
Speaker
Against another team that everyone's still, not everyone, but a lot of people still have more confidence in going on a deep playoff run than the Packers. Micah Parsons said, OK, it's winning time.
00:29:01
Speaker
I'm going to go and make the plays that have to be made. they're not going to score one more touchdown on us. we're, you know, we're going to put the hand, the ball in the back in the hands of our offense. And, know, That's what special players do, and he is one of them. And that's why Jerry Jones is coming out and lying again about what did and didn't happen before he traded him to Green Bay. That's the reason that all this shit happens is because he's like, oh, fuck. Yeah, we won on Thanksgiving, but Micah had the best game out of any defensive player. So I almost traded him for Quinn and Williams. That's why that shit isn't going to stop because...
00:29:35
Speaker
As senile or whatever you want to say about Jerry, he knows, like, I traded a Hall of Famer. Like, there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. He can try to badmouth him on his way out of town. He can try to use the coaching staff or the locker room. But he knows what he traded out of town over a money dispute that Jerry Jones himself created.
00:29:57
Speaker
So, yeah, just... And I don't think there will be a point until he's not in Green Bay or if he just becomes such a locker room headache that it's untenable. I don't think there will be a time where anyone will really say, stop doing that. I can't believe Micah Parsons plays for the Packers.
00:30:18
Speaker
He destroyed the Lions so much. that he caused Frank Ragnow to sprain his hamstring and go back into retirement.
00:30:31
Speaker
So that just goes to show you how Micah has been. Yes, you are going to have some down games once in a while. There's no doubt about it.
00:30:42
Speaker
Everybody does. I mean, look at it. Miles Garrett is having the season of lifetime. and you know this this is a rare one mean it's so rare that it hasn't been done since what jj watt did it last and then before that it was was strahan so i mean it's so to see what mike is doing
00:31:12
Speaker
and i'm i am going to say this and i know it's gonna kind of rattle might be a little bit of disagreement between kuano and i but if we can somehow figure out how to get rashawn gary going it's going to make it even worse for offensive lines oh yeah because rashawn yes is having some success with things but he's even still not
00:31:42
Speaker
playing like week one and two rashawn gary which is weird that you can play that well the first two weeks was going to get into that i was going to get into that more in like the stale and moldy sections but i totally agree right but i just i'm throwing it here just to say that if we can get that going mike is gonna micah could end up having uh a miles garrett type season or yeah and And I highlight, and the stuff I was saying about, like, people need to just appreciate how special Micah is, is like, I think what's hurting Rashawn is the lack of interior pass rush.
00:32:19
Speaker
Like, Rashawn is the kind of guy, basically everyone else on the Packers is a one direction, I call them one directional winners. They're going to make one move And if you don't win with that initial move, they're not the kind of pass rushers that are going to redirect counter and win unless there's great coverage. And we don't have that kind of coverage on the back end against good offense that's going to buy you time to get those kind of coverage sacks. You saw some of them against Minnesota, but like I said, that's a broken offense.
00:32:49
Speaker
Micah is the guy who's going to win in a blink of an eye off the snap of the ball, but he's also the guy that can take a two-way go and win that way. No one else on this defense has that capability. Like, as much as a real lover, Sean, I'm not going to lie to anyone and say that he's that type of pass rusher.
00:33:08
Speaker
Sorrell maybe can develop it, but he's still a rookie. It's not his game. Wyatt even, he's a lightning guy kind of thing, and, like, he's just win a gap kind of thing and stuff.
00:33:20
Speaker
Lucas might be able to kind of do it, especially over a guard, but, like, Parsons is the only one who can summon that ability on a snap to snap basis. And that's why I bring it up as more of like a appreciate how special that ability that he brings to the field is, because that's what makes him a Hall of Fame track player.
00:33:41
Speaker
right and i'm not disagreeing with that i'm just saying that if we can get something going on the opposite side it's going to make micah even more dangerous because you're not going to be able to throw a triple team out there on micah because you've got to worry about the other side you know coming at you so yeah that was the only reason i brought it up now was because if if we can get that going on the other side then this defense is going to be even scarier so i i but other than that i agree with everything on mike i mean i was the draft guy in me still hates giving up the two first round picks just because that that takes away from our draft draft yeah
00:34:23
Speaker
Uh, so let's just hate watching for the first day for the next two years. I'm just glad they waited until after it was out of green Bay to do it. Yeah. Cause I would have hated I mean, I still would have went up, but it still would have made me even more mad to go up there for the first day of the draft and be able to see a first round pick.
00:34:43
Speaker
Uh, but. outside of that feeling you know i never really questioned bringing micah in matter of fact i was shocked by it because it was not a move that you know green bay is normally going to do so i i mean i'm happy for it yeah and like we said and guticun said the reason they wouldn't do it is because those kind of players don't become available like right yeah and Yeah.
00:35:13
Speaker
Like you can rewind the tape on the both of us. We had our preseason look when the rumors first came out and we both said, that's cool and cute and all, but there's no way it's going to happen. Right. Because it wasn't necessarily that we didn't believe Jerry would have done something stupid It's the, what are they going to have to give up to do You know, were talking multiple first round picks, multiple day three picks, you know, probably, I mean, the first rumors that came out said they were going have to throw Lucas Van Ness in there, or they were to have to throw Rashawn in there as a return. But when it came out that it was, and this isn't anything against Kenny Clark, I think we kind of miss Kenny Clark right now. Yeah, given our current situation.
00:35:53
Speaker
With the current situation, but Two first round picks and Kenny Clark, that's all it took. And that's why it's disbelief because it's like, that's why we could never picture Micah Parsons happening to Green Bay. That's technically why we could never picture like a Miles Garrett or a Max Crosby coming to Green Bay because it's like, okay, well, yeah, sure, you give up the first round picks, but what else are you going to add to that to get them? And coming into it's like,
00:36:23
Speaker
I mean, even sitting at this spot, even hindsight 2020, I think I still would have 100% done that trade any day of the week. Yeah. And even looking at it from a draft guy point of view, it's like, yeah, I would have done it.
00:36:37
Speaker
I mean, that kind reminds you of that definitely has all the markings of like a Madden trade. And you don't really get Madden trades in the real NFL. So with all that being said, yes, Micah's presence on the field was amazing. He had two and a half sacks, four QB pressures. He added in a tackle for a loss also.
00:36:59
Speaker
And I don't care what these talking heads say. There is no questions about his run-stopping ability. With his speed and his physicality,
00:37:09
Speaker
He can run stop. Yes. Is he going to overrun the run play once in a while? Sure. But you just like we kind of said with Watson, when Watson was dealing with all those injuries before getting kind of straightened with, with what they found out in Madison, when you have that much physical athletics or that much freak athletic ability in such a bigger of frame you're not supposed to have that technically exactly you know with his playability he should be more more and they kind of said this during the thanksgiving game that it's kind of amazing that when he came in the league he was an inside linebacker right
00:37:59
Speaker
because that's how he's built is more of an inside linebacker than an edge rusher. But because of his strength, because of his physical ability, because of his athleticism, he can play the edge and he plays the edge really well. So it's a rare specimen. And I know this is also hindsight 2020, but it's also kind of crazy that he dropped to the 12th pick overall in that draft. So...
00:38:25
Speaker
just gotta be happy with it and you know hope nothing major happens you know we don't want any uh gas mask don't become weird become weird just stay stay normal hot tubs with people that you shouldn't be in hot tubs with or or uh what was the one the troy guy on What was like 10K cash, couple of pounds of some stuff he shouldn't been having. And yeah, don't do any of that and we'll be gravy.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. Other shout outs. Musgrave had the nice play downfield. Enigbari got a sack stolen by a terrible call. And he had, you know, he had the half sack with Parsons.
00:39:12
Speaker
which is kind of stupid because he really didn't do anything but pressure micah had him all the way on the ground just and then barry fell on the way down yeah yeah the o-line overall the o-line played well i know that there are a couple minor breakdowns in pass protection but They have really found something with inserting Belton in at right guard. You know, we were both kind of bemoaning that, you know, Morgan just, he's just not built to be a guard.
00:39:39
Speaker
And it really does put pressure on Morgan to be the left tackle next season. do hope we get to see him rotated in at left tackle, but I really like what we've seen out of the combination of the Banks, who's really rebounded, you know, he finally is looking healthy, healthy again. But the thing, the way that him, that Banks, Ryan, and Belton are able to move bodies on the interior in the run game, that's what you need, right?
00:40:10
Speaker
operate on offense the way LaFleur wants to. You need to be able to create north-south movement in the run game so that you can open up the play-action pass game. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they've gone to more play-action since they've inserted Belt in, gotten Ryan comfortable at center. I know it's taking a little bit of time, but I really hope that those three are able to mesh over the final stretch of the season because it could be the difference between just another made the playoffs successful season or going on a deep run through the 2025 playoffs. So that's a big one. Yeah.
00:40:46
Speaker
I mean, I would wait for the rotation at left tackle till next year because, you know, we we've talked about it. Obviously they believe Morgan is their left tackle of the future.
00:40:58
Speaker
And I know, this has been a common thing about mafia is mafia said the Belton, you know, projects as a guard, no matter how you look at it. But if this is, if this, if he continues playing like he does, you might as well just say, stay there.
00:41:17
Speaker
Yep. don't don't mess with anything just stay there yeah because still have time at right tackle yeah yeah you still have time at right tackle and then that just leaves two
Offensive Strategies and Player Highlights
00:41:28
Speaker
positions that you have to kind of worry about center and then the left tackle if if morgan doesn't come out and play like he should yeah uh i think ryan is the kind of guy that honestly gutter couldn't should be like here's a two-year eight million dollar deal do you want it right now? Like, like maybe he has, or $2,010, $2,000, $10,000. $10, I'll give him $10 to stay for two years. Like, I hope that they just kind thrown that on the table at this point and been like,
00:42:00
Speaker
Like, you know, this offer is there. It'll be there through free agency. But if you want to sign it now, great. And, you know, they can even guarantee like $8 million worth of it because, you know, basically do it up kind of like the, kind of like the McDuffie contract, basically, where it's like,
00:42:17
Speaker
You reward him for, you know, he struggled as a rookie, has improved the last few years, and maybe has finally found the home at center. But at least you have, at absolute worst, you have a stopgap option.
00:42:32
Speaker
And like you said, the last thing you want to do this offseason where you're still, you know, no GM is ever going to be completely all in, despite what fans think, despite what fans want.
00:42:43
Speaker
No GM is going to empty the coffers and fully dive headfirst and go all in, quote unquote, for any season. But you've tied yourselves to 10 and 1.
00:42:53
Speaker
And the fewer deck chairs you have to shuffle, the better between these two seasons. So if you can retain Ryan, because like I said, I know it's only... you know, York. So three and like a half games at this point, but it's been three and a half pretty solid showings.
00:43:12
Speaker
The shotgun snapping is always going to be a concern for me, no matter what, because this is a guy who hasn't played center his whole career. But at the same time, just the way that they can move bodies on the inside in the run game. And Ryan does see, you know, he's always going to have,
00:43:27
Speaker
some pass protection issues just because he's such a big body in there, but he can anchor well. And as long as you can keep Chris Brooks around to help clean up any mess, like...
00:43:39
Speaker
they're going to be able to do things on offense. So I really like what they showed. You know, I still have questions about how good Detroit's D line is, but Ali McNeil is back and he, you know, he had a few plays where he got a little bit of habit created. You still have to account for Hutchinson starting on one side of the line and looping all the way to the other side. So there's communication, there's technique there.
00:44:03
Speaker
And I thought that they played a really good game. And, you know, like, It took a low knee knock on Jacobs to get him out of the game, but he had one of his most efficient days on the ground this season. So you really just want to see them continue that forward going into this Chicago game. And it's really good to see them put together two strong games on the ground because that's going to set the table for what they want to do, especially going into this stretch where you want to dictate terms against chicago and then that denver game in between the two chicago games where it's like you've got to be able to figure out how to run the ball on denver because that pass rush in denver is another monster in of itself so that step forward we're seeing in terms of o-line play and production really need to have it and it's great to see it against a division rival so
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah, I was trying to look. I couldn't remember what John Runyon got in free agency, but he got a pretty hefty contract out of the Giants. Because I was trying to see what Ryan possibly could get, because face it, Ryan has been a starter for the last two, three years anyway. But I...
00:45:13
Speaker
I still think you need to find a guy that's going to be your true anchor at center. Yeah. And I wouldn't mind bringing Ryan in as kind like a lane Taylor type deal where he's going to be your initial starter. But if you get an Elton Jenkins that can come in and play it right away, go for it. And you know, I, I know a lot of people are speculating, but the possibility is Jenkins is back you know, next year too. We don't know, you know, how things are going to work out. Packers have done some weird shit before with some other guys that they've held onto them for a while, but we don't know.
00:45:54
Speaker
he even kind of struggled going back to center. So maybe they do cut him loose and say, Hey, you know, we just, we don't have a spot for you because obviously Belton's not going to move to center. I don't, I don't think he has ability to play center.
00:46:10
Speaker
And don't think Elton at this point in his career could make the transition back out tackle position. So just don't think that's happening. But, you know, bring Ryan back for, you know, like I said, on a Lane Taylor type deal just to you know, have that stop, like you said, stop gap and make sure you bring in somebody who knows maybe with the discourse going on out in Las Vegas, you know, they'll let JPJ go and the Packers can bring them in or whatever. But yeah, overall, the offensive line played well. I was looking at it. Belton played 100% of the snaps. There was no rotation. So I'm glad they stopped the rotation on that.
00:46:52
Speaker
But yeah, I can't add any more to that because you We've pretty much put it all out there. think the only other one that I can throw in there as a fresh, I mean, there's a lot of them. The Packers obviously won. There's a lot of things that you can throw out there.
00:47:09
Speaker
uh but i mean you do have to throw watson in there because watson came up big on some things yeah he didn't have the greatest of games when it comes to things i mean four catches on 10 targets is not great but he did do what we needed really important yeah yeah the one thing that we've been asking for all season happened where it was a deep throw and i had to laugh Because if remember right, when they were doing the replays of it during the game, Brady said something like, and he put all of it behind that pass. It's like, no, he didn't.
00:47:47
Speaker
There was not even close to all of He flicked his wrist and that ball went flying down there. He kind of wasn't totally back-footed. The first time he tried to throw it deep to Watson was more back-footed. But yeah, it wasn't like he really heaved into that thing or anything like that. But yeah, this game from Watson, it's one of those where...
00:48:09
Speaker
When you look at the raw numbers, it doesn't look great. Like you said, four for 10. Of those six misses, like I said, a couple were flat-out drops that he's got to make plays on. A couple of those were nice defensive plays that you still want to see him win on. And then you have a couple that are going in the moldy bin, like I said, that we'll talk about later on. But you have to look at this is one of those games where because he's a deep threat, you have to treat him like a home run hitter and a 400 batting average with like a 1,000, like a 1,200 slugging, which is basically what he had Thanksgiving. Like that's all you can ask for out of your, your home run hitters. So I agree with you. Like, yeah, Watson deserves a shout out.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah. And you kind of mentioned Jacobs. Jacobs had a hell of a game before, you know, Jackass did what he did. So is there anything else you want to mention before? Let's just let's move on before this episode becomes a three hour special. What's this deal? Shit.
00:49:08
Speaker
You know, I've been thinking about it. I don't know if I have a lot what I could call. I mean, you could theoretically throw Watson in there as a snail because of what we were just talking about. I think the good, like I said, treating him like a home run hitter. He's going to have some strikeouts, but. Yeah.
00:49:23
Speaker
i i think that the big play you know the only stale thing out honestly the the one still as i wish he got down in bounds on his last catch like i do think that's one where like you've got to understand the game situation i know and i know a lot of people would be like it's not easy i'm like yes it is he caught that ball like three steps from the sideline it's like just fall down like do the musgrave and just fall down Like, kind of thing and stuff. And, like, you've got to have the wherewithal. And you can't be the one to, like, turn upfield into the sideline. Like, you absolutely cannot do that.
00:49:55
Speaker
If you're going to go into the sideline, it better be because you're, like, clutching it and, like, allowing yourself to get pushed backwards, which should keep the clock running kind of thing and stuff. So that would be the only thing that I would really let border on stale there.
00:50:10
Speaker
But my stale, it's something that we broached on. And I'll defend him for the most part, but I do need more from Rashan. I agree with you. We need more from Rashan.
00:50:21
Speaker
Like I said, you know, I see a lot of people complain that, oh, he's getting paid $30 million for, you know, to do nothing on so many weeks, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of shit. But On one hand, like I said, yes, he's being paid a lot of money, but he's not that kind of player. Like, that's not his... He's not the kind of guy who's going to be a week-in, week-out, one-player pass rush dynamo. Like, he's more of a havoc-creating kind of player who...
00:50:53
Speaker
You know, when he's in rhythm and on it, he can mess up a game plan kind of thing. But he's not Parsons. And he's not paid like Parsons either. Like he's getting paid like $12 million or, you know, whatever million dollars less per year. that difference is the difference in caliber of player. That said, we need more, like you addressed earlier, the team needs more from him.
00:51:19
Speaker
And this is going to kind of go into another one that I have with Halfley where understand that the principle is to like... you know, not give up explosives. You know, like it's almost like ball possession on defense kind of thing. But to me, what screwed the Packers, you know, everyone's like, there's no pass. What happened every time they would get up 10 points, Detroit knows what defense Halfley's doing. He's going to take away all the big plays, keep everything underneath.
00:51:48
Speaker
And what happens is, is that If you look at Goff's pass plays after, like I said, after that first touchdown drive where he has the two almost overthrows that become big receptions, is they go almost exclusively play action when they need a pass play. And the way Green Bay operates on defense is because they're making sure that they're being disciplined, they're not going give up easy yards, all that stuff.
00:52:13
Speaker
Whenever the opponent shows any kind of run action, Green Bay's defensive line stops because they're like, oh, shit, is it a run of thing. And to me, with this defensive front,
00:52:26
Speaker
When you're up more than one score, you've got to say, we, and I know you didn't have Koei last week, but, you know, McDuffie was having a pretty good game outside of the second drive, the outside of the first touchdown drive.
00:52:38
Speaker
To me, when you go up multiple scores, you just tell those four guys in the front, Go get the quarterback. I don't care what happens if they run the ball. Just go get the quarterback.
00:52:49
Speaker
If something happens, we'll live with the result. But again, like I said, it's a similar issue we had with LaFleur not going for kill shots early, where it's like, sure, your defense is good, but why handcuff them to the heater when you could say, no, no, like, Micah, go do whatever, especially against Goff.
00:53:10
Speaker
Like, Goff's superpower is being accurate when he's comfortable in the pocket. If you have a two-score lead on him, don't let him get comfortable in the pocket. Go and attack him. And yes, on a down-to-down basis, Rashawn can do it.
00:53:28
Speaker
If you're not going to produce against the passer, you cannot lose the edge like he did on that one-run play. Parsons did too, but Parsons made up for it by getting basically sacks on three different plays kind of thing. And on top of that, Micah's got speed that he can make up if he gets beat or loses the edge. Yeah. Rashawn, like, he had a couple where he was in the area kind of thing, but wasn't really in the area and stuff. And that's what I'm talking about is, like,
00:53:55
Speaker
I, and Rashawn is the one that's hurt most by the lack of interior pass rush, because to me, I can't tell if they're telling him, okay, because there's no interior pocket push, you have to contain the other side of the pocket so that Micah can do whatever he can to get to the quarterback. Because at times,
00:54:17
Speaker
it's like Rashaun is just like looking for the quarterback and not like, you know, like I have no idea, but he's kind of just like, okay, I'm just like mirroring him on this side. And we haven't seen Rashaun make inside move in a month.
00:54:28
Speaker
And those kind of things are where I'm like, okay, like what is and isn't each guy allowed to do at this point? And like I said, I've obviously got my biases and stuff. But like I said, it's stale because we've seen Rashawn have production this season. We've seen him have great games this season. You know, he had sacks against Detroit, a sack against Detroit in the first game when Michael wasn't even on the field. So it's like, it's not...
00:54:55
Speaker
Micah gift wrapping everything for Rashawn or anything like that. I agree with you. He needs to do more, but really everyone on the defensive front needs to do more. But also, as much grief as we've given LaFleur to this point, now it's time for Halfley to say like, okay,
00:55:12
Speaker
We've played the long game to start the season. We've got eight wins where it's mostly worked for us. But in those three losses and one tie, you can argue there are multiple points in that game where playing bend, don't break, broke the team.
00:55:27
Speaker
And sure, you could have given up an explosive play, but also at the same time, maybe, you know, like in the Dallas game, if you give up an explosive earlier in the game, maybe Jordan has more time to go get a game-winning touchdown at the end instead of a field goal at the end of the fourth quarter. So, you know, it's those kind of things where, you know, everyone's like, oh, but like, you know, you're up multiple scores, let them bleed the clock. But I'm like, the way you do that is you score more points and you got to get the ball back to your offense. But...
00:55:56
Speaker
Like I said, that's picking Knits. We'll see how it projects over going into this Chicago game. And we'll talk more about this for Thursday's episode. But this is a game where Halfley, I know what he's been playing towards this whole season. But this is a game where you have to be the aggressor and you have to dare Chicago to have Caleb beat you with his arm.
00:56:18
Speaker
I understand that you're going contain the pocket, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of shit. But you've got to send some A-gap blitzes. You can have, whether it's Parsons coming up the A-gap, hopefully you have Lucas back this week. But whoever's on the edge has got to contain the pocket.
00:56:34
Speaker
but you've got to take away this run game and make Caleb beat you with his arm. And we've seen LaFleur change his feathers, be more aggressive to match. Like I said, the last two weeks, he's really, really played out the games the way they've needed to be played out to maximize the team's effectiveness.
00:56:54
Speaker
Now it's Halfley's turn to play the same game where it's like, okay, we've gotten ourselves to this point. Now it's time to turn over a new leaf and show that we've got another gear we can hit and will hit to be a more aggressive, explosive defense. And to me, that's where more of their lack of turnovers is, is that they're just sitting so far off and so far back in coverage so often. It's like, how can you force turnovers if you're not pressuring in coverage or pressuring the quarterback consistently? So that's a direction I want to see them change in. And that's why it's my stale. Like I said,
00:57:27
Speaker
Most of things they're doing, you can't complain. You can complain that they gave up third and 15, but they did get to third and 15 multiple times. And there's a lot of good that goes into that.
00:57:38
Speaker
It wasn't as elite as it was week one, but I was kind of shocked that Gibbs had as bad of a game as he did the end when you look at his stats.
00:57:48
Speaker
Because felt like he had more than one 18-yard run in this game kind of thing. But then you're like, oh, shit, he had 23 carries for 60 yards, and his catches didn't really go anywhere either. Like, oh, we did do a bang-up job against him. So, yeah, it's like...
00:58:04
Speaker
It didn't feel great at the time, but that part of it worked well. But at the same time, it's like, OK, now you got to figure out the other part. And I'm not saying you have to throw the kitchen sink every play, but do it with a little more frequency to make your bluff blitzes work better, make some of your disguise coverages work better, because it's like, oh, shit.
00:58:24
Speaker
They did it two plays ago and maybe they're going to do it again because it's a similar situation and stuff. So you got to show you can't just bluff the aggression every time you have to bring it like and not just in a desperation moment in the game. You have to do it early when it's like regular down kind of thing. That's the part where I need to see more from Halfley.
00:58:44
Speaker
I wonder now that unfortunately Wyatt is probably gone for the season. And I said this about Ness, but I wonder if it might be better to move Rashawn as an interior rusher, just because of the way he's...
00:59:02
Speaker
he uses his abilities. His best rush was over the left guard this game. That was the one he almost tipped a pass over the middle. So yeah, I agree. It would help to get Lucas back no matter what. To have both those guys able to do it, that would be big. And just to be able to move all three of him, well, I guess all four of them, because Enigbar has been getting snaps at three technique as well. So yeah, being able to move all four of those guys around You're right. The first step, you got to get Lucas back on the field and like really back on the field. Not this like, oh shit, it wasn't a setback, but oh yeah, he wasn't healthy either kind of thing. Like I hope, I really hope that they got him out against Minnesota in time where it really was just like, oh, it is just not, it's still too tender for him to play on kind of thing.
00:59:51
Speaker
Really hope that's because they need Lucas back. Now, like you said, because of the wide injury, they need Lucas back. I also hope and wonder whether this means you get more edge and Quay A-gap blitzes because you've got to create more pressure up the middle and stuff. So those are all things we'll see. And yeah, like it starts this week against the Chicago team.
01:00:14
Speaker
yeah other than that think if we continue to see the trajectory rashaan's at then it's going to slowly start going into the moldy but yeah we can keep it as a stale right now other than that i really don't know if i have anything fully stale yeah i mean i have something that could be stale that slips into the moldy so i mean do you have anything else that's stale no play the sound bite and let's go it's a moldy cheese giving up 144 yards to jameson williams you know i think that's pretty moldy even though it didn't really come back and bite them horribly just it kind of goes into what you were saying where the bend don't break and they were giving up this and that i don't know if that means
01:01:02
Speaker
that our secondary was as shitty as that but it sure felt like it every time jameson got got the his hand on the ball on top of that and i was going to ask you about this didn't kennedy like kill the packers a couple years ago too I'm forgetting which short white guy it was, but yeah. Yeah. the, the name just seems familiar for the lions that it just seems like that. Yeah, he had a, and you know, that kind of hurt the special teams in a little bit because he was getting some decent returns on that. And then he was just finding open areas. I mean, he's not a world beater at his position, but he just managed to seem like he was everywhere at the same time.
01:01:52
Speaker
Let's see, he was four receptions for 36 yards, long 23. Jamison was seven receptions, 144 yards, long a 44.
01:02:02
Speaker
And, you know, I can't even throw Tesla in there because he wasn't great, but his one ended up in his touchdown. And, you know, that was a pretty solid catch for him too. But the pass rush did what it needed.
01:02:19
Speaker
Just for some reason, that secondary just didn't seem like it was there when they needed to be there. And I know you just laid all that out and what you were just talking about. That's why I said this could slip both ways, either be a stale or a moldy. But I'm going to put it here just for now because 144 one guy does Yeah, and especially when that comes after, you know, you come into the game, no Sam Laporta and Amin-Ross St. Brown. You know, I'm pretty sure every Packers fan exhaled when Amin-Ross got injured. And, like, it's like, okay, like, you don't have to worry about that. And I have seen Detroit fans joke that, like, okay, did Jameson, like, really turn a corner or did he really only do that because Goff had no one else to throw to kind of thing and stuff. But, yeah, like...
01:03:07
Speaker
You're absolutely right. You don't want to see anyone have that kind of success. And yeah, you can play the, well, it's only 120 yards if Carrington remembers that he has arms or Carrington doesn't fall down in the middle of the field on that one over route that Williams caught. But I agree with you. I saw some people say, like, like, Kamal Haddon, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. I'm not ready to, like, crown Kamal Haddon off of, like, a half of football or anything like that. But at the same time, yeah, there is something that's just a little, like you said, it...
01:03:43
Speaker
it's hard to tell whether it's a nagging concern or like a potential like pitfall issue kind of thing and stuff, but it is there. And yeah, like, I don't know how to label it yet. So it's, it's to be earmarked. And The concern comes like, okay, these next three games, right?
01:04:00
Speaker
You know, Packers fans love to hop on Caleb Williams, this blah, blah, blah, all that kind stuff. you allow Caleb Williams to complete 70% of his downfield passes and you make Bo Nix look like a pro bowl player...
01:04:13
Speaker
Those are like, OK, you've got to do something. And I do think Carrington was solid outside of the tackling issues. But the tackling issues are bad. And when they probably knew that about him as a player anyway. Yeah. And Westendorf and I were joking about this, where it's like, there are a lot of people that were like, we don't care about the tackling issues. Like, just play it. But it's like, you can't be the same people that are like, oh, like,
01:04:39
Speaker
Carrington, you suck. You can't have your cake and eat it too on these things. Which of the two evils are you going to live with and stuff? And I still would choose the better coverage player, but you can't have stuff like that screen pass that should be a loss where... And granted...
01:04:54
Speaker
Yes, Carrington was bad on that play. The other four guys who run in on that play and all end up in the same spot missing Jamison too. That was as bad as Carrington missing the first tackle. And I can't even call that bad for Carrington because he did what he needed to do. He slowed down the guy enough that he should have been able to rely on the other guys to make the play. been Jamison the whole way around. And yeah, it's one of those where it's like,
01:05:19
Speaker
If it's any other team than the Packers, it's a, oh, that could have been a five-yard loss, but it just became a one-yard loss or a one-yard gain kind of thing. Leave it to the Packers to have four guys, one runs behind the receiver, and three of them all, you know, I think Jamison caught it on, let's say, the 20, the 30-yard line. And, like, the one guy runs behind him after Carrington helicopters him, and then the three other guys run to the 20-yard line, and it's like,
01:05:49
Speaker
Like, that's not how pursuit works. You need to create a net around him. And all three of you, like, and I think it was Inigbari who kind of like, you can see him, you see him realize like, oh, and he kind of shoves Bullard because he's like, you need to go over there. But it's too late at that point because Williams is, he's already got his footing back and stuff. But you can kind of, I think it's Inigbari who realizes it as they all hit the sideline that he's shit, we fucked it up, kind of thing. And you can kind of see him, like, try to push one them. I think it was Bullard, where he tries to push Bullard back into the play, but it's too little too late. But, yeah, like...
01:06:29
Speaker
Like I said, defense is hard in the NFL. And unfortunately for the Packers, yes, they made plays on one of the fourth downs. They got a gift on the other fourth down when Goff couldn't make the throw and Williams should have caught the throw anyway, but dropped it. But,
01:06:46
Speaker
Every time the Packers made a mistake, Detroit found it. And it was just one of those games where, like, every defense is going to make mistakes. But, like, it is the whole, you're never as good as you look on your best play and you're never as bad as you look on your worst play. But it just feels like on every bad play, the Lions found it. And it was just like, fuck. And luckily, the Packers' offense was on its P's and Q's and it didn't matter in the end because they just scored...
01:07:14
Speaker
And like we said, no matter how good this Packers defense gets, to me, any more excellent they are on defense is just a bonus for because this team should be carried by its offense. And that's why you and I are both applauding LaFleur for how he called this game because he let this offense be the engine for this Packers team this game. And on a...
01:07:40
Speaker
game where this effort from the defense has lost them the... It's lost them the Carolina game. It's lost them the lead against the Cowboys. And what's it called? You know, the Browns game was so weird. And then the Eagles game, the offense couldn't do a thing. But you look at the Panthers loss, the Cowboys tie, and then this game, like, those are three, like,
01:08:05
Speaker
depreciating returns outcomes where it's like you're good for like 85 90 percent of the game but those 10 to 15 percent of plays like you know a lot of people have been like oh it's only that much but that's the margin of error that you do or don't have in this league. And it's, you know, I'd say that in games like this, the Packers are 1-1-1. So you've got to clean that up going forward. But like I said, there's more good than bad. But yeah, like it is in that, like you said, it's stale for now, but it's moldy if it goes even one more week kind of thing.
Controversies and Officiating Issues
01:08:40
Speaker
And the big moldy I have is the refs in this game.
01:08:44
Speaker
The big one that benefited the Packers was the timeout thing. I'll go to my grave saying LaFleur was going to go for it no matter what. Yeah, he would have had to adjust his play call. But like I said, the fact that they have the clip of him at the end of the game that was like, Jordan, we got two chances. You just got to get one of them.
01:09:03
Speaker
To me, that proved that his mindset the whole game was, if we're in a short plus field position, we're going for it. And yeah, it would suck to have to make that play from the seven-yard line, but I truly believe that LaFleur is like, fuck it. I don't care that we got the false start. We're going for it kind of thing. And I'm going to say this about that, the timeout.
01:09:28
Speaker
The refs said that they heard him. They weren't looking for the signal. They heard him yelling, and then they saw the signal. So that's what they were going off of. And it's like the play clock thing where the referee who's going to grant the timeout is the side judge. And the side judge is looking down the line of scrimmage because he has to make sure that all the offensive players, the five linemen, the two skill position players that are supposed to be on the ball are on the ball. Everyone else is in the back. He has to make sure that no one false stars, no defenders jump into the neutrals, all that kind. So he, like, everyone's like, oh, how could he have seen LeFleur? That's the whole point, is that LeFleur is allowed to start yelling. And should LeFleur have maybe been singlet? Sure, whatever. But it's like, it doesn't matter if he's doing this and not saying, because it's, there's this play back in 2006 where,
01:10:19
Speaker
the Dolphins were playing the Steelers on opening night and Nick Saban was the coach and he wanted to challenge a play that was, it would have been in Miami's favor, but he throws the challenge flag and he kind of like underhand shot puts it and it falls like seven yards short of the ref.
01:10:36
Speaker
And then the Dolphins are like, we challenged it, but the ref's like, you should have thrown it. You should have hit me with the flag. Like that was basically what the ref said is like, well, like,
01:10:47
Speaker
You threw it so short that it's like, and like, there's a clip of Saban where he like tosses it like five feet in front of himself. And then he's like pointing at it. And the ref is like 15 yards away kind of thing. so like going back to LaFleur, yes, he's allowed to start yelling and be like, yeah, I want the timeout. And, you know, people are like, oh, you don't see him move until Beltane's Whatever. Like I said, I think LaFleur was going for it no matter what.
01:11:12
Speaker
And that did not score a touchdown for Green Bay. Like, I'm sure Lions fans and whatever would be complaining or laughing about like, like you tried to save them and it didn't. Like if Green Bay doesn't score the touchdown to Dobbs on the next play, like it, I don't want to say it's a moot point, but, you know, like they're complaining about it less kind of thing.
01:11:34
Speaker
what they allowed each team to do on defense in coverage was bullshit. Like absolute horseshit. All the Detroit fans are complaining about the first Wicks touchdown.
01:11:45
Speaker
None of them are talking about how Brian Branch got away with a clear defensive pass interference. And I mockingly tweeted it during the game that looking back at the ball doesn't count when you two-hand shove the guy in the chest before you look for the ball.
01:12:01
Speaker
And then you had three different instances where a Detroit defender is clearly holding a Packers arm to stop them from getting two hands on the ball.
01:12:11
Speaker
Twice to Watson, one on that crucial third down before Detroit's last scoring drive. And then the one to Dobbs was on the free play where he goes up and you're kind of like, why is Dobbs trying to one-hand the ball? And it's like, oh, it's clearly like...
01:12:27
Speaker
It's clearly, his arm's clearly being held. The Watson one was the worst one because the side judge is looking at him and sees it happening and it's like no call. And then what makes the Watson no call absolute horseshit is you come on the next drive, Enigbari gets a coverage sack, and then you call an illegal contact on Keyshawn Nixon that should never be called because Nixon does not move into the receiver. Keyshawn is standing in a spot and if the receiver runs into him, that's the receiver's fault because Keyshawn owns that spot on the field. And if you as an offensive player run into the defender, that is not illegal contact.
01:13:13
Speaker
Keyshawn doesn't even put his hands on the guy first. He's like, honestly, he's trying not to touch him because he's like, this guy, he's expecting the guy to run a route. And then when he runs into Keyshawn, Keyshawn's kind of like this, because he's like, oh, like what?
01:13:28
Speaker
And that's the kind of stuff we've talked about it before. I do not understand why New York does not come and change these calls. Because New York should be a Rolodex for the rulebook.
01:13:43
Speaker
And we saw it today where there was a play in the, I think it was in the Pittsburgh Buffalo game where the ref is literally in the middle of calling a face mask and you hear go, correction, there is no face mask.
01:13:57
Speaker
And the booth is like, New York called in and said there's no face mask. And they're like, yep, there's no face mask. And that honestly pissed me off even more about the Nixon penalty call because it's like, okay, I get that you're not going to do something where you take a flag out of the ref's pocket and throw it after the fact.
01:14:16
Speaker
But in an instance like that where it is so clearly not illegal contact, New York should be like, you didn't see the whole play. That's not a penalty. Pick it up. Detroit needs to punt the ball or have fourth and 25 or whatever after a Nagbaray sack.
01:14:32
Speaker
But yeah, it's that combination of not calling the Watson penalty and then calling, not a ticky-tack foul, an incorrect foul on Keyshawn Nixon that extends a scoring drive. Those back-to-back things, those are the kind of crap that are why people do all the, like, the league is rigged, Goodell made a call, make all kind of comments like that.
01:14:57
Speaker
It's that kind of crappy officiating work. That's why people like have all these thoughts and commentary on the game is because it's like you guys clearly don't know your own rules and you have no idea what the fuck you're doing out there.
01:15:10
Speaker
So, yeah. We've been saying all season, all last season that these guys keep getting worse and worse at some of the stuff that they're calling and not calling. So, I mean,
01:15:25
Speaker
Wasn't it this game where you actually see Micah and one of the refs getting into it? The, how are you not calling that a hold? I'm getting held every time.
01:15:35
Speaker
And you know, it is what it is. mean, don't know what they're going to do about it. They're obviously not too worried about it because they haven't done anything about it.
01:15:47
Speaker
So. yeah i i don't know how much more i can throw into it on it because it is it's getting sickening it really is yeah anything else for you in the moldy this week or well kind of to lean into that brian branch because how many knees are these guys going to take out before somebody actually does something And, you know, luckily Jacobs was able to come back Hopefully he's not dealing with too much swelling or anything in that knee, but he's already had knee issues stemming from the Giants game. Comes into this game and Brian Branch like immediately darts towards that knee.
01:16:29
Speaker
I get that you got to take these guys low and you're, you know, it's a contact sport and all that stuff, but you got to wonder if him and Kirby Joseph's intentionally do that kind of thing it kind of in in a small minuscule way reminds you of the whole bounty gate type thing where they were they were targeting specific things because they knew it would take these guys out yep i and i i know that you know like uh lions fans and stuff they're gonna say like well what's he supposed to do in that play and it's like
01:17:08
Speaker
Well, that's what I mean. You know, how are you? You're supposed to go low on some of these guys because otherwise you're not going to take the guy down. But, you know, spearing like the kneecap. Yeah. Like you said, the frequency and the way they do it is where that that's where I do have. And like I said, I'm not defending him at all. I agree with you. Like it is the whole.
01:17:29
Speaker
okay, you keep doing this thing. Maybe you are just a dirty player. Like, you know what mean? Like, if it was only the first time or maybe the second time, you know, it's the fool me once, shame on me. You know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me kind of thing. We're on fool me like 42 for these two guys.
01:17:46
Speaker
And would be one thing if they were just like, no, no. Like, it's the fact that both of them try to play innocent. that that's the part that irritates me more than anything if you want to be physical or whatever or you get get an opponent own it like man up and own it but for them to every time they get confronted with it and kirby joseph the whole like why am i not in all pro safety why don't my peers like me like i'm not a dirty but yes you are like if
01:18:18
Speaker
there's only so many reasons why guys in the NFL do not like you. And it's either you're a terrible person off the field. And even that doesn't necessarily get you blacklisted.
01:18:30
Speaker
Generally, it's the guy, you know, the whole talk of the brotherhood and all that kind of shit. And it's like, like I said, the biggest one is that these two boneheads are the ones that blew out TJ Hawkinson's knee.
01:18:40
Speaker
And that was their teammate like earlier that season or the year before or whatever. And it's like, it doesn't get any fucking clearer than that. That it's like, I get that he plays for a division rival and all that kind of stuff, but it's like, you were just sharing the locker room with that guy 12 months ago and you...
01:19:00
Speaker
intentionally went at his knees. Like if there was, if you needed a further explanation, there is none because that play hanging in the Louvre, like that's why everyone hates you. So yeah. they took out three different people, right? There was Higney the Rams, Hawkinson when he was traded to Minnesota, and then there was one other one, wasn't there? mean, there's been way, like a lot of people say, but those are the big ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like,
01:19:27
Speaker
Like I said, I would still have a problem with it, but it's the crying about, oh my God, like everyone, like, you know, like I point to the Detroit, the 80s Detroit bad boy pistons and it's like, yeah, like we know that's how we play. Like you have to own it. Like we're tough.
01:19:47
Speaker
We're going to do this because this is how we know we can beat you kind of thing. Just own it. don't come crying when everyone says you're a dirty player and no one like, you know, like that was the one. That's why I laugh at the Kirby Joseph stuff. Is this cause it's like, Oh yeah, we're, you know, you, you get in front of the mic and you do the whole, we're mentally tougher, physically tougher than our opponent, blah, blah, blah. But when the accolade stuff the voting or whatever, and you find out, Oh, no one likes me, me. And you try to play victim there. It's like, get the hell out of here. Like, shut the fuck up.
01:20:19
Speaker
But
Player Safety and Injury Concerns
01:20:20
Speaker
anything more than that we're just gonna we've been on for an hour and a half and oh and he needs to get rid of that stupid mouthpiece in his helmet because it just makes him look like an idiot i don't know why i don't know why it's green like that and that feels like it should be a uniform infraction because it's like it's not one of your team colors kind of thing right but there's nothing they can do because it's a mouthpiece and he does wear a mouthpiece without using it so I don't think there's a color standard for mouthpieces. Yeah. It's just one of those, what the, like, what the hell are you doing kind of things, but whatever, teach their own, let them do whatever. Yeah. There's one other one that we can mention since we're on it, but because you were kind of having a fit with it. If I'm surprised you didn't mention Rutledge.
01:21:08
Speaker
Oh yeah. And like I said, that goes back to the, You know, identity of your coach. Yes. Thank you for reminding me. I was fucking pissed when I saw the... Because at first, I thought Wyatt's injury was a concussion because I was only looking at the center pushing him into the ground. I didn't see how he got there.
01:21:30
Speaker
But I was concerned he got concussed because I was like, that's how, like, Brett Favre's career ended is he got thrown to the ground like that and stuff. But... Tate Ratledge, I get that you're playing injured. You're trying to tough, you know, your team is this rough and tough rumble team. You're wearing the neck collar. You're trying to, like, play through a stinger that you re-aggravated earlier in the game. But, like, Warren Brinson whipped your ass. And I get that he was your college teammate. You know, there's extra on the line there because you guys practiced together for four years, all that kind of shit. But...
01:22:06
Speaker
When you get beat, don't be a little shit, a little chicken shit, and, like, do some, like, gator roll throw thing to, like, make sure he doesn't get into the park.
01:22:16
Speaker
And then to throw, like, and I don't think he necessarily intended to throw him into Wyatt, but that's the kind of bullshit thing that can happen when you do dirty little shit like that. And, like...
01:22:30
Speaker
I'm trying to think, would they have overlapped at Georgia? 21, two, three. I guess so, maybe a year. Maybe if Ratledge was in college in 2021. I'm not sure how long he was at Georgia, but, you know, he was at least getting recruited there when Wyatt was there. And then obviously he played with Brinson, but like,
01:22:51
Speaker
Everyone's going to get beat in the NFL. Shit. Panay Sewell's gotten beat by Micah Parsons. And, you know, Sewell just kind of took it as like, fuck, I got smoked off the line of scrimmage by Parsons kind of thing. You know, we sit here complaining that Rashawn should do more, all that kind of stuff. But like, when you get beat, don't be a Dominic Riola and be a little...
01:23:12
Speaker
little shit about it every time and stuff don't you know that like yeah that pissed me and and you you know it's bad when nobody in detroit is even trying to like defend it like it's getting pointed out on like by different people and stuff and no one's saying anything about it because they know like yeah that was fucking dumb and I know Spoon said that there might be some ligament stuff. I hope he's talking about ligaments in the ankle and not the knee because things get really bad if Wyatt fucked up his ACL.
01:23:50
Speaker
Obviously, I hope that somehow he didn't break or tear anything. I don't think that's physiologically possible. If there has to be an injury, hope he broke a bone in his leg as opposed to tear the ligament. Because if he breaks a bone, he should be ready for training camp and be able to play the whole season.
01:24:09
Speaker
If he blew his knee out, now you've paid him his fifth-year option and you're stuck with him at that number and he might not play for you at all next season. Like, it's a double whammy for the Packers where, like, it happens because of a dirty play. And then this goes back to the refereeing thing.
01:24:28
Speaker
That's clearly a trip or a hold or a something. And you don't call it. Like, there should have been a flag on that play for something. And I'm sure the refs will be like, oh, but Parsons got the sack.
01:24:41
Speaker
I hate that bullshit NBA thinking of, like, oh, we were waiting to see if you made the shot before we called the foul. It's like... Call it like just fucking call it like don't don't wishy wash it. It's either you know, it's it's like my mom says about math. There shouldn't be a curve in math classes because math is right or wrong. It's not history. It's not English. There's no like interpretation. You're either correct or you didn't get it. And that's the same with penalty. And I you know, the whole like, oh, they can't flag everything. It's like, well,
01:25:13
Speaker
They should get the obvious ones and they're not getting the obvious ones. This game is a blatant example of that. And so, yeah, like take Ratledge a hearty fuck you. I hope your I hope your gravy was cold and your cranberry sauce was sour.
01:25:28
Speaker
According
Playoff Implications and Future Outlook
01:25:29
Speaker
to Rappaport two days ago, it's a fractured ankle. Yeah, you see, like, that would, like, obviously I wish he wasn't hurt, but I think that would be a better case scenario than, like, a blown out knee.
01:25:43
Speaker
But, yeah, I agree. don't have anything else. You got anything else you want to throw out there? Nope. Let's just put a bow on this because, like I said, we're approaching pretty long on this one. And yeah, let's just put a bow on it. You can get to editing and we can both get on with this week and start getting ready for Chicago.
01:26:04
Speaker
But, oh, one note, we will be doing the postgame live for this one because... Game was moved to prime time. Like we said, just put up or shut up time for the Packers. I tweeted it earlier today.
01:26:18
Speaker
Packers fans can make all the comments they want about whether the Bears are paper tigers, illegitimate, taking advantage of a fourth-place schedule. BAS, they're number one seed in the NFC right now because they have won the games. They've won the games they've won. I don't even want to say they've won the games they've supposed to because I don't think that's true either. But if Green Bay doesn't go and win on Sunday and then win again in two weeks, then they're better than you.
01:26:45
Speaker
And Green Bay fans, you can't say shit about that because your team didn't do what it was supposed to do. You wake up and you're six and a half point favorites. I do think they're better than the Bears, but I've also thought and know that they're better than the Browns and they're better than the Panthers.
01:27:03
Speaker
This is the same scenario where they've come off like back to back, like important key wins in a season. And they've gone and just shit the bed in the following week or two kind of thing. Weeks one and two, you open the season with resounding wins over Detroit and Washington. You shit the bed against the Browns. You put your whole ass out for the nation to see and tie with the Cowboys. Then... You beat the Bengals, you escape with victory against a tougher Arizona team than their record suggests, and you have that resounding victory over the Steelers. And yeah, like you're, what are you? You're five one in You're like, yes, like this is one of the best teams in NFL. You shit the bed against the Panthers and the Eagles.
01:27:45
Speaker
Is this time around going to be different for this Packers team? you got to come out and show it. We're going to go over it in our opponent preview, but so for that case, check us out on the website, Ohana Packers.org. I'm going to try to get back in the writing, the writing frame of mine at this point. as we get into the stretch run, the shop support us with merch. Uh, you know, Joe said he was going to try to come up something with the, the skull joke, uh, make fun of the Vikings.
01:28:13
Speaker
Support us there. Please follow the podcast on your social media accounts at Ohana underscore Packers at Ohana Packers or at Ohana underscore Packers on Twitter at Ohana Packers edition on Instagram. Search us on Facebook. You know, if we can get somehow get to 100 followers by Saturday, we can live stream on Facebook.
01:28:32
Speaker
Check us out on your favorite podcasting apps. Give us a like, hit a subscribe. And, you know, Joe reaches out and puts out the feelers for ask us anythings or comment on us anythings. Please continue to send those in. We're going to get to those on our shows. We want to answer the topics that you're looking for. Talk about the things that you got questions about.
01:28:51
Speaker
That's what we're here for. We're here to be your water cooler boys. And, you know, we just want to be a part of your Packers discussion. But, yeah. Packers are trying to move their way on up in the NFC playoff rankings. They did get some help today.
01:29:04
Speaker
And, you know, like the way you got to look at it is like maybe the Bears are better than they are. We thought they were. Or maybe they gave us a big helpful hand by beating the Eagles and knocking them back behind us. And because if you take care of business against the Bears, you're in the driver's seat for the NFC North.
01:29:22
Speaker
And, Everything is there for you to take advantage of, but Green Bay has to do it themselves. You've lost your margin for help. You've lost your margin for error by losing the Panthers and Browns game.
01:29:36
Speaker
And it is time for this Packers team to truly have turned the corner and flip it into postseason prep mode. We're going to find out. This Thanksgiving game was a big step.
01:29:46
Speaker
We're going to see as they go to play the Bears this coming Sunday night. For Iowa Joe, I'm Mike. Go Pack Go and Aloha.