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#406 Surface grinding deep dive
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TOPICS:
- Business insurance
- Thermal compensation on Speedio
- Surface grinding deep dive
- Shop improvements
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Transcript
Introduction and Entrepreneurial Rant
00:00:01
John S
Welcome to the business of machining insurance, episode number 406. My name is John Saunders.
00:00:07
johngrimsmo
And my name is John Grimsmo.
00:00:09
John S
So Grimson and I were talking about insurance a couple weeks ago, and then it came up again just quickly offline. And then um i I'm going to rant a smidge, but I think the premise of my rant is also that balance as an entrepreneur or business owner recognizing where you need to put time and effort into tools and resources like insurance.
Insurance: Skepticism and Strategy
00:00:33
John S
um What also kind of led a fuse is there was a pretty good, actually two things sort of things happened in the general USA news, US news. One was a New York Times article about a two different homeowners in Colorado who had insurance where one got kind of made whole when their house burned down. Like this is the terrible, but like clear cut example of like,
00:00:52
John S
wildfire devastated their whole neighborhood burnt house. Like the engine block is melted into aluminum. Like there's just no question about, um, the event.
00:00:57
johngrimsmo
wow
00:01:01
John S
And there was no question of insurance coverage for fire. And one company paid out the, uh, claim holder, you know, right away with a six figure check. The other one, like two, three years on is still like litigating and dealing with like nickel and diming and 4,000 row spreadsheets over line items.
00:01:18
John S
Um, And if you go like spend time but on like Reddit, looking at like how you evaluate higher end insurance stuff, it's like, look, you want to look at the claims, uh, claims ratings, not insurance ratings.
00:01:32
John S
Like how happy were people that went through a claim process?
00:01:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:01:35
John S
Um, and this is slightly off topic, but it captures the, again, the ethos of this, like, People that pay more money for insurance companies for like Chubb, which is like super expensive, could be multiple times more premium, but it's kind of one of the whole, like, they don't ask, they don't give you hard time.
00:01:52
John S
It's not value budget, Geico State Farm, whatever you will call it stuff.
00:01:55
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:01:55
John S
um That may be great for some people. Overall, though, my sort of thesis-y punchline is um you need to have it. We have insurance for ah variety of reasons around insurance.
00:02:09
John S
property slip and falls, equipment, building and so forth. But I'm not the insurance business. I cynically think I would probably get screwed you some which way, shape or form because um you know nobody's reading these documents.
00:02:23
John S
Like there's all these outs. Like I'm very cynical about it. Meaning I don't place a huge amount of value in it.
00:02:28
johngrimsmo
Thank you.
00:02:30
John S
um and i would And I guess that's what i'm saying is I would encourage this people to to not over trust it. And I wouldn't but i certainly wouldn't spend significant amount of my personal time or payrolled employees times. You talk about Mike and Milterra, like, you know everything I do needs to be a hundred bucks an hour, 200 bucks hour, whatever the number is, um, to start going through extensive lists and extensive legal review and contract review of these things. Because first off, fortunately the likelihood that it happens is very low.
00:02:59
John S
Um, so I don't think it's worth spending a ton of time, even worrying about that.
00:03:04
johngrimsmo
Yep, yep.
00:03:04
John S
Um, I've not, I've always, I generally don't make little claims. I don't make small claims. So I think assurance is more about like if some devastating situation where our shop ceases to exist, which there's a whole bunch of complicated things to unpack there around life.
00:03:20
John S
um
00:03:21
johngrimsmo
yep
00:03:21
John S
Right? Like I'm taking a rock scientist to start figuring out some of those questions. um But I don't put a ton of value in it. I don't, I'm sure like bamboos and some little stuff like that. I don't care about that.
00:03:33
John S
um and Does that make any sense? Am I just rare but ranting?
00:03:36
johngrimsmo
It was it's a good good ramble. gets people thinking, gets me thinking. Um... Yeah, I think, I mean, you said your policy just came up somewhat recently and and mine's coming up for renewal now.
00:03:44
John S
Yeah.
00:03:46
johngrimsmo
So it's bringing up these questions and business insurance, something we all need. um How complicated do you make it? You know, I'm here to make parts and make cool things and sell them to customers and make them happy.
00:03:57
John S
Yeah.
00:03:57
John S
Yeah.
00:03:58
johngrimsmo
I'm not here to make my insurance agent happy, but at the end of the day, but you know, minimum effective dose, you know, what what is required for us to be whole in case of whatever.
00:04:06
John S
Yeah.
00:04:07
johngrimsmo
And, uh, not to waste too much of my time on this process.
00:04:12
John S
Right. Yeah. I just, I would prefer to ensure things in a different level of like just what do you need to do to, I view it, like and I kind of said this to you offline before you hit record, like I view it more as like a YOLO, like we get one chance to do this thing on earth and what makes you happy and the emotional devastation if the shop ceased to exist would be brutal. But like, it again, not really related insurance, but like it's an open-ended question of like, would any of us actually start from scratch completely rebuilding?
00:04:50
John S
I, John, oh my gosh.
00:04:51
johngrimsmo
If everything just disappeared. Yeah.
00:04:54
John S
You know how much like to recut every fixture, tool holders, buying machines, rigging them in i mean, part of it's a super exciting because you get that fresh chance, start chance.
00:05:02
johngrimsmo
Yeah. and And we do know a lot more than we did throughout the entire process of ah figuring this out the whole time.
00:05:08
John S
Yeah.
00:05:09
johngrimsmo
So like next time around, like say a company is expanding, they're but building a second location, want to like, the military did that. They bought the building across the street and they're just expanding, doing it all over again.
00:05:17
John S
Yeah.
00:05:19
johngrimsmo
Um, But yeah, the deeper existential questions here.
00:05:25
John S
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that's a great question. Again, I think everybody should ask their an agent is like, what happens if, you know, what happens if the machine catches on fire, if the whole shop catches on fire, am i do I get checks that I can just walk away with if I don't want to buy the equipment back?
00:05:38
John S
Or does the check have to go to POs to replace the machinery? Like these are, these are real questions that lots of people, um,
00:05:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah, real questions, yeah.
00:05:48
John S
I think the other top of mind really crappy anecdote around this was some of the insurance companies. um so like devastating, some of the insurance companies wouldn't issue 9-11 payouts because there was no body.
00:06:00
John S
And the companies like Chubb were like, hey, yeah, you you were employed by counterfeits. Like you were you were at work, you're dead, like or like here's your payout. Now, but i'm I'm not frankly more in the budget insurance category in the sense that like I would not pay, our insurance is four figures a year, high four figures.
00:06:21
John S
And I would not pay double or triple to have the chub level of like absolute you know first class treatment.
00:06:27
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:28
John S
Cause it's not, it's just not worth it to me, at least sort of on this stuff here.
00:06:31
johngrimsmo
And I guess that becomes a personal slash business decision, you know, for each individual, whether it's home, auto, or business.
00:06:34
John S
Yeah.
00:06:38
John S
Right, right, right.
00:06:40
johngrimsmo
You know, you, me, the business owner, and ultimately has to make this call is how much value do you place in it to pay the extra premiums?
00:06:46
John S
Yeah.
00:06:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:50
John S
Yeah.
00:06:51
johngrimsmo
and so
00:06:54
John S
Yeah. Oh, that was the last thing i I'll say. And this is great advice. And I ah tip of the hat, my insurance agent, who also awkwardly sometimes listens to this podcast. And I have been very critical of insurance in the past on some aspects, but um do take a film ah video of of your shops or your, of your homes as well.
00:06:54
johngrimsmo
Well,
00:07:11
John S
um Because having that evidence can be quite helpful. we so We keep serial numbers on anything that's like five figures of value, like machines and, um you know, CMM type stuff.
00:07:21
John S
I don't have serial numbers on my bamboo or my, you know, big tutorial gauge blocks or quantum mics.
00:07:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:07:25
John S
Like what, don't know, whatever.
00:07:27
johngrimsmo
No, that's a super good idea, especially at work and at home, like you mentioned, to just do a full video walkthrough, maybe when nobody's there, of just kind of everything. So you have video documentation proof.
00:07:36
John S
Yeah.
00:07:38
johngrimsmo
Put it in a Google Drive folder that's just you know available.
00:07:39
John S
Yeah.
00:07:42
johngrimsmo
um And how often would you do that?
00:07:45
John S
every Every five years, I mean, know five years or like if you make a crazy change, I guess.
00:07:46
johngrimsmo
guess, yeah.
00:07:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:07:50
John S
Look, um a big part of my point is like, I'm not living for the downs. Like I'm not sitting here,
Quality Control and Machining Challenges
00:07:56
John S
live your life.
00:07:56
johngrimsmo
Planning for the worst, yeah.
00:07:56
John S
Like I'm not sitting here or, yeah, exactly.
00:07:59
johngrimsmo
Yep, yep.
00:08:02
johngrimsmo
Good. Yeah, I'm gonna take that video, because that's a good idea. All
00:08:04
John S
Sweet.
00:08:08
johngrimsmo
all right, do you want... top level or very technical?
00:08:15
John S
Yes. i always want it all, John.
00:08:17
johngrimsmo
Pick one.
00:08:18
John S
Top level.
00:08:19
johngrimsmo
Okay, so Fjells are selling. We've sold 50-ish.
00:08:21
John S
Awesome. Congrats.
00:08:23
johngrimsmo
um
00:08:24
John S
That's awesome.
00:08:24
johngrimsmo
Super fantastic. So um we're at a point right now where Eric and some of the other guys are assembling them, checking them off, and then they come upstairs for cleaning, photography, and and shipping to the customer. But I am interjecting myself in the middle there going,
00:08:41
johngrimsmo
For now, I want to check every single one and just make sure there's consistency, make sure it feels the way I feel.
00:08:43
John S
Yeah.
00:08:47
johngrimsmo
And of the 20 or so that were up here waiting for me to check, I rejected 17 of them.
00:08:52
John S
Oh, John, really?
00:08:53
johngrimsmo
And I passed three of them. um Some were super easy changes, just, you know, it's a little wiggle here or something, easy tweak. And I know it's so well now that I can easily suggest like, oh, you just got to do this.
00:09:05
johngrimsmo
Send it back, easy fix, no problem.
00:09:06
John S
Okay.
00:09:07
johngrimsmo
And then a few of them, um, took a bit more loving to to get tweaked. um Like Eric had to, you know, take little stones and stone a little lock feature to get it to do something else.
00:09:19
johngrimsmo
Because as we're learning in this batch of first hundred, that's the whole goal of making the first hundred is to fine tune the tolerances and the tool paths and the polishing this, polish that, don't polish that, heat treat like this, hardness, et cetera.
00:09:22
John S
Yeah.
00:09:30
johngrimsmo
and And we're learning and they're not a hundred percent perfect yet, but by one-on-one we should be going real nice and smooth. So.
00:09:38
John S
Good.
00:09:39
johngrimsmo
Super good.
00:09:39
John S
That's great.
00:09:40
johngrimsmo
Super good. So, um yeah, of the 17 I rejected, like, you know, 15 of them were easy and two of them were difficult. But Eric was able to pass it through and get it going.
00:09:48
John S
Yeah. Awesome.
00:09:50
johngrimsmo
So it's great. It's good.
00:09:52
John S
What's the, what's the technical?
00:09:54
johngrimsmo
um So I got two things. On this video, remember last week we talked about thermal compensation and how I'm im measuring, I'm probing the laser body and and logging the growth change throughout the day.
00:10:03
John S
Yep.
00:10:05
John S
Yep. Okay.
00:10:06
johngrimsmo
It is trackable, it's noticeable, it's a real thing, and it's really cool. So I've got that now implemented into our grinding cycle where before every grinding cycle, it probes the laser and says, oh, I'm off in Y by 6.5 tenths.
00:10:19
johngrimsmo
I'm going to comp my grinding offset
00:10:22
John S
Okay.
00:10:22
johngrimsmo
by 6.5 tenths. And it's working beautifully. i I need more data to see how it's really trending and I'll graph it out.
00:10:28
John S
yeah it's It's head nod in Z or in Y?
00:10:30
johngrimsmo
um But I think it's doing exactly what I want. And that is just utterly fantastic. It's head... it's it's head What is it going?
00:10:43
johngrimsmo
I forget if it's going up or down in Z, but the the head is coming forward or backwards in Y as well due to the growth.
00:10:45
John S
Should go down.
00:10:52
johngrimsmo
Like the spindle cartridge is getting hot, so it's heating up that metal on the spindle housing.
00:10:52
John S
Well, so it's...
00:10:58
John S
Okay.
00:10:59
johngrimsmo
and or Or the whole head is tilting because of that. i don't For my purposes, I don't care about tilt and nod and things like that. All I care about is absolute position, XYZ.
00:11:06
John S
Okay.
00:11:08
johngrimsmo
Like where does the tool... in relation to where it thinks it should be kind of thing.
00:11:12
John S
Yeah. Okay.
00:11:15
johngrimsmo
um
00:11:17
John S
And that copying happens automatically or you're just choosing?
00:11:20
johngrimsmo
I wrote a lot of macros to probe a value, notice the deviation from my fixed values on a cold machine to where it's probing now, and the deviation is 3 1⁄2 or whatever it is, and then I'm applying that offset, whether it's plus or minus, to a fixture offset,
00:11:31
John S
Yeah.
00:11:34
John S
Yeah.
00:11:39
John S
Okay.
00:11:39
johngrimsmo
whether it's plus or minus, and i sometimes they're backwards and you got to make sure the math is right.
00:11:43
johngrimsmo
So you're not doubling the error, you're actually eliminating the error.
00:11:46
John S
Yes.
00:11:47
johngrimsmo
So that takes a lot of, you know, brain ninja thinking and and testing to make sure you're going in the right direction. And then it's going good. So that led to ah next problem where those um Those deviation values for X, Y, and Z, I was like, let's put them to a permanent variable.
00:12:08
johngrimsmo
Let's do 597, 598, and 599.
00:12:10
John S
No.
00:12:12
johngrimsmo
And then I can always see them, and they're there. It's nice to check on them every now and then and see where it's at. I'm also deprinting every single probing cycle, so I have total records of all of this. And then it ran for an entire morning making parts.
00:12:27
johngrimsmo
And then halfway through the day, it goes to take the touch probe and it goes to probe the blade like it always does. And it says feed rate error, something like that.
00:12:35
John S
yeah
00:12:37
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, what the heck? And then my guy Steve was running it and he's like, I don't know what's going on. So I'm like, is it a me thing or is it a machine thing? I don't know. Restart the machine, and see what happens.
00:12:48
johngrimsmo
Same problem. Uh... Well, it's been running all morning, so why is it a me thing? So then eventually I start single blocking through the whole probing cycle. And I get to a line where it says, you know, probe, XYZ, all variables, and then feed rate was variable 128.
00:13:04
johngrimsmo
And then you got a backtrack and give it like, how does it get variable 128? Like what's feeding that? And the probe the bloom probing cycle uses a fixed feed rate of 3000 millimeters per minute. It's an inch machine.
00:13:16
johngrimsmo
So there's a conversion in there somewhere, 25.4. twenty five point four
00:13:18
John S
Yeah.
00:13:19
johngrimsmo
So it's trying to feed at 3,000 inches per minute, which it can't do, hence the error. And then I'm like, well, why isn't it converting? Because I didn't change anything. these All these probing macros are the same.
00:13:30
johngrimsmo
There's one stupid line of code that says, if variable 599 equals zero, skip the conversion rate.
00:13:38
John S
yeah
00:13:39
johngrimsmo
And this happened to be the one moment where my thermal comp had zero deviation. Yeah. Like, to the ten millionths.
00:13:47
John S
Oh my God.
00:13:48
johngrimsmo
The five-digit inch.
00:13:48
John S
Yeah.
00:13:50
johngrimsmo
And everything else has always been, you know, plus or minus zero.
00:13:50
John S
Ugh.
00:13:54
johngrimsmo
It's like total fluke, weird coincidence, but um it was nice to be able to single block through and figure out that. But, and yeah.
00:14:01
John S
Yeah, but like this is where we know too much because it's like, you know, we had this, we deal with this now on our Akuma where it's like, you don't know what, frankly, offsets, let alone variables are going to be used by Renishaw probe, a Gossiger probing cycle or a routine.
00:14:15
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:14:15
John S
And then it's like, which ones are free for me to use? Like, I don't want to sit here and I'm not trying to steal one, but there's no systematic way of being safe around that.
00:14:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I keep ah a spreadsheet or a notepad document of every variable that I'm using and and owning.
00:14:26
John S
Yes, right.
00:14:28
johngrimsmo
And I, you know, like RASC serial number,
00:14:30
John S
Mm-hmm.
00:14:31
johngrimsmo
It's 3,592, but it also breaks down into 3, 5, 9, and 2. So I'm using five variables for the one digit, and I have those locked off on the current.
00:14:42
johngrimsmo
um And then Norseman gets its own, Fjall gets its own, and you have to track it, because otherwise you forget.
00:14:50
John S
Yeah, right.
00:14:52
johngrimsmo
So, yeah, I thought the 500s were relatively free, but apparently 599 not. However, I'm pretty sure 6, 7, 8, and 900s are never used by built-in cycles.
00:15:02
John S
Got it. That's good.
00:15:03
johngrimsmo
I
00:15:03
John S
Yeah. So that's, so you're good. Like you're happy with this or you're going still wait to get more data.
00:15:08
johngrimsmo
i need more data. Yep, yep.
00:15:09
John S
Yeah.
00:15:09
johngrimsmo
Yes, I need more data. And I still need to test the Z1 where I'm probing the top of the blade because there's a feature on the Fjell blade where I want to machine. I want it to be ten thousand tenth thousand five tenths um
00:15:21
John S
Okay.
00:15:22
johngrimsmo
Deep, exactly. And it's swinging by over a thou. um Deeper, shallower kind of thing. Deeper is bad. Shallower is just not as crispy.
00:15:31
John S
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:31
johngrimsmo
And a lot of that is thermal growth. So I haven't proven that yet, but the system's in place. So, yeah.
00:15:37
John S
Sweet. Are you monitoring your coolant temp?
00:15:40
johngrimsmo
Not? No, I'm not.
00:15:43
John S
i mean, I would argue you should stabilize it or get you made whether you need a chiller or just even put a thermometer on there and check it a few times a day.
00:15:44
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:15:51
johngrimsmo
check it It would be good to check, see if it correlates. um I mean, clearly a lot of the heat's coming from the spindle itself.
00:15:59
johngrimsmo
But, i don't know.
00:16:00
John S
Yeah. yeah one of things we One of the many things that we've been doing this year to just you know, reduce headaches, improve proof quality life here at the shop is um lots of new things.
00:16:13
John S
And a lot of those things are on Alexa timers. So like we have a pond heater in our grinder tank and it's on an Alexa plug.
00:16:19
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:16:19
John S
That way it's not running nights nights and weekends.
00:16:20
johngrimsmo
Oh yeah.
00:16:22
John S
And frankly, there are days or if not weeks that go by where we don't use the grinder. We're actually still heating the coolant during the day then.
00:16:28
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:16:28
John S
but um helping pick that we can start within about a three or four degree band what we notice versus if we don't do anything and at least in the winter months
Improving Shop Efficiency
00:16:40
John S
the coolant is about 10 degrees below ambient um and so you're going to have that growth i mean i guess what i'm saying is don't the the best version of lean is eliminate so eliminate the thermal changes rather than measure them and cop for them yeah
00:16:55
johngrimsmo
True. Very true.
00:16:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I'll check that. I feel like, but this is total conjecture, that the... doesn't make sense now that I think about it. I feel like the coolant heats up slower and not as much as the spindle and casting itself.
00:17:11
John S
Sure. Yeah.
00:17:13
johngrimsmo
i don't know um So say say you put a chiller on the coolant.
00:17:15
John S
Right.
00:17:17
johngrimsmo
It would help absolutely. Stabilize the machine. You're spraying a 70 degree coolant at everything, which sheds any heat coming from anything.
00:17:28
johngrimsmo
Like the current. The current is fully thermally chilled, but the spindle, axis motors, everything. um It's kind of next level adjust the coolant.
00:17:37
John S
Right.
00:17:37
johngrimsmo
it It also chills the coolant.
00:17:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah, super interesting.
00:17:42
John S
Cool. Well, yeah. Keep me posted.
00:17:44
John S
i mean, I still love the idea of like, okay, you count some more performance on a hundred thousand machine versus a multiple, six times the price of that machine that has that built in.
00:17:44
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:17:50
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:54
johngrimsmo
I think with this and and the high accuracy mode that I have, so I have five digit inch accuracy, it it is a shockingly repeatable accurate machine.
00:18:02
John S
Yeah.
00:18:02
johngrimsmo
This thermal being one of the only big variables that swings too much for my needs, you know?
00:18:08
John S
Sure.
00:18:09
johngrimsmo
But we have a feature on the Fjell where we're hard milling a circle that's 3125 inch diameter um in our in our blade. So we're we're hard milling that feature.
00:18:19
johngrimsmo
And then we are now CMMing and tracking every single ah diameter, but also circularity.
00:18:23
John S
Yeah.
00:18:25
johngrimsmo
Like how much of a cylinder is that consistently? um And the circularity is within tenths for the 100 blades that we've done.
00:18:36
John S
Nice.
00:18:36
johngrimsmo
like it is making It is making a circle, which is really cool.
00:18:36
John S
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:18:40
johngrimsmo
And as the tool wears, we start to lose half a tenth or a tenth, and then we comp it. But um I think I've only comped this tool by two tenths radial after 300, 400 minutes of runtime.
00:18:44
John S
Yeah.
00:18:50
John S
Yeah, so yeah you're right, right.
00:18:51
johngrimsmo
It's absolutely fantastic.
00:18:52
John S
That's awesome.
00:18:54
John S
Do you own a cylinder square?
00:18:57
johngrimsmo
and No, but I've been looking into it a lot lately.
00:19:00
John S
We own one. it's like it was a used one from Kodak, which I think is kind of cool.
00:19:05
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:19:05
John S
um
00:19:05
johngrimsmo
It's funny you bring it up.
00:19:06
John S
And we don't check this on, well, we know we monitor this inadvertently through how we do our plate production on the machine. So, um and the and the reason we bought the Genos is it's a different kinematic design.
00:19:23
John S
It's not a C-frame style machine. So it's um just much different and frankly better.
00:19:24
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:19:27
John S
But ah I guess what I'm curious would be take a cylinder square, on your spindle and I mean, I 100% believe you that there's head nod. You should be able to see that then so measuring a indicator along that in Z, along silver square that's...
00:19:44
johngrimsmo
So that's different. If you put a cylinder square on the table and you indicate that, it's different than putting the test bar in the holder.
00:19:50
John S
No, put on... That's what I mean. yeah on the holder. Sure.
00:19:53
johngrimsmo
I have a test bar. um
00:19:55
John S
Oh, that would work too. I'm thinking of a silver square magnet on the...
00:19:56
johngrimsmo
No, but I need to think this through to see if those would give different results.
00:20:02
John S
They might actually.
00:20:04
johngrimsmo
I don't know.
00:20:05
John S
Sorry.
00:20:06
johngrimsmo
I can't think on the podcast right
Exploring Surface Grinding Techniques
00:20:07
johngrimsmo
now, but I need to like see it in front of me.
00:20:07
John S
Yeah, right. Right.
00:20:10
johngrimsmo
I do have a test bar, I'm pretty sure I have a BT30 test bar, although it's super awkward to tool change into the Speedio.
00:20:16
John S
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, right.
00:20:18
johngrimsmo
it Because it the way it unclamps is purely mechanical cam levers. The Z has to go up for the cam to activate, and you have to like go into some weird super weird safe mode with the door open or a side panel and put the tool in while you're jogging it up, and it doesn't like you doing that, so I wrote a whole procedure in GURP to remember how to do that.
00:20:26
John S
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:20:38
johngrimsmo
anyway
00:20:40
John S
but let's let's Let's talk through this real time, even if it's embarrassing.
00:20:44
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:20:45
John S
So exaggerate. So let's say our head, let's say it's head nodding, which means the C frame is bending down toward the ground, which means you're...
00:20:49
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:20:52
johngrimsmo
So let's say that the table is flat to the ground.
00:20:55
John S
Table is perfectly stable, let's assume that, which means your, your and you let's say you have a 20 inch gauge bar in your spindle.
00:20:56
johngrimsmo
Level. Level.
00:21:03
John S
That means the tip of that tool is going to end up dipping closer to the column. It's gonna fall downward at a, I'm gonna call backward angle.
00:21:13
johngrimsmo
who
00:21:14
John S
That makes sense. So then if you put an indicator on your mounted to your table, measuring that spindle as you jog up, you'll see that because that, that tool exaggerates going to be at a 20 degree.
00:21:27
johngrimsmo
I don't know. if you put If you put your indicator right halfway up your arm, we've got our arms at a 45, and you're move the z-axis moves in line with...
00:21:32
John S
Yeah.
00:21:37
johngrimsmo
the ah for you know the five degree tilt that the head is nodding, think your indicator would stay still, wouldn't it?
00:21:42
John S
Yeah.
00:21:44
John S
um And now you've got me doubting me down.
00:21:47
johngrimsmo
Right?
00:21:48
John S
This is like the Mythbusters or like, does the plane take off if it's on a treadmill?
00:21:51
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:21:51
John S
um Watching like watching like like commercial airline pilots freak you about this is like, makes you lose faith in humanity. oh so So if it if the rails were, your Z goes up and down on, call it linear rails. If those rails were,
00:22:12
johngrimsmo
are tilted.
00:22:13
John S
are tilted as well, then, then yes you, then you would not see any movement. But if, if the rails are perfectly remain perfectly up, right up and down, but your head, let's say your head, some head casting somehow literally starts to like bend for it Then you'll see it.
00:22:26
johngrimsmo
True.
00:22:31
johngrimsmo
Bolts back off or something, then then you'd see it.
00:22:33
John S
Yeah.
00:22:34
johngrimsmo
Because the rails are perfectly vertical, perpendicular, but your head would move, so your entire angled line would move up and down
00:22:38
John S
That's your traverse.
00:22:42
John S
Yeah.
00:22:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah, can kinematics are super interesting.
00:22:44
John S
I suspect it's a mix mix of both.
00:22:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:22:49
John S
Because if you think about it too, this is why we do the table dresser on the grinder is that overhead dressers don't absorb the changes from the casting nod.
00:22:49
johngrimsmo
But then...
00:23:00
John S
Whereas a table dresser, I don't care how angled the wheel is to the table when you dress it. i mean, this is millions probably. It just cleans that off and you redress all the time.
00:23:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah, because your table dresser is attached to your Z axis, the front to back one.
00:23:10
John S
Okay.
00:23:16
John S
Oh, yeah. Don't say that though.
00:23:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I know.
00:23:17
John S
every yeah Sorry. Just go treat it like a freaking milling machine because yeah, yeah.
00:23:21
johngrimsmo
Exactly. um The table, but as opposed to the upright dresser on top of the head is got its own little linear rail that is not necessarily parallel to the table linear rail.
00:23:22
John S
The table. Anyway.
00:23:29
John S
Yes.
00:23:33
John S
It's most certainly isn't. In fact, that's one thing you do know is that it's never parallel to the table.
00:23:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:23:36
John S
It's close, but it's never parallel.
00:23:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:23:38
johngrimsmo
It's never the same. whereas Whereas putting the dresser on the table is the same.
00:23:39
John S
Right.
00:23:41
John S
The same.
00:23:42
John S
Bingo. Sure.
00:23:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:44
johngrimsmo
Very cool. So it's funny you bring that up because my recent hyper obsession has been surface grinding.
00:23:45
John S
Right.
00:23:51
John S
Oh, okay.
00:23:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And I actually popped up old videos of yours and old videos of mine. And I read old emails from 2013, you and I going back and forth about Tormac Surface Grinder.
00:24:00
John S
No way. Oh man.
00:24:03
johngrimsmo
um because we have our beautiful Okamoto, you have the exact same machine. I've never personally touched it Jeff, Angelo, and Steven run it. I could take the time to learn it, but it's just not something I can jump on and grind something.
00:24:18
johngrimsmo
um I feel like there's there's a learning, and it's big and heavy and expensive and scary.
00:24:21
John S
you
00:24:23
johngrimsmo
Tarmac Surface Grinder, however, is literally collecting dust in the other shop and runs on 110, little six-inch wheel. We actually upgraded to the belt or...
00:24:32
John S
Right, right.
00:24:33
johngrimsmo
or sanding belt conversion. And we used it for a couple of years like that. So as one of my guys said, as I was trying to explain this to him, he's like, you have unfinished business with that machine, don't you?
00:24:45
johngrimsmo
And I was like, i maybe i kind of do. Because you might remember, um we were getting horrible surface finishes on our, when we use the wheel, the the stone grinding wheel.
00:24:56
John S
On the Tormach grinder, okay.
00:24:56
johngrimsmo
On the Tormac, we were getting bad surface finishes and I couldn't figure it out. And i air quote, balance the wheel really well.
00:25:03
John S
ah Sure.
00:25:03
johngrimsmo
I'm reading my old emails here. I balanced the wheel really well.
00:25:05
John S
Right.
00:25:06
johngrimsmo
And our first spindle actually had spindle taper run out. Like if I put an indicator on the taper, there was a thou run out.
00:25:12
John S
Okay.
00:25:15
johngrimsmo
So that was bad. They sent us a new spindle runs out true. um And I think at the same time we put on the the belt drive. So like I never got to fully like,
00:25:23
John S
Okay.
00:25:27
johngrimsmo
close the loop and see if I can get good decent finishes from that little machine. um Anyway, so I came in the other night and I plugged it into an extension cord and turn it on. it was like, still works. Like we still have it.
00:25:40
johngrimsmo
ah kind of want to grind something, but I don't have a way to balance the wheel really well. So long story short, I don't think I balanced the wheel nearly as well as I should have. And I was, attributing you know a really hoppy bad grind to the machine, to whatever.
00:25:51
John S
Sure.
00:25:55
johngrimsmo
This was 12 years ago.
00:25:57
John S
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:59
johngrimsmo
So I kind of want to balance a wheel really well and just see if I can grind something really nice.
00:26:05
John S
Does it make the beer taste better?
00:26:07
johngrimsmo
No, but it makes me happy. And this has been the internal...
00:26:10
John S
I'm interested in the taste of the beer, and not your happiness.
00:26:13
johngrimsmo
I know. This has been an internal battle for the past few days because I'm like... This doesn't make any money. There's no actual need. i don't i have a nice surface grinder. I don't need to learn the skill, but I still find myself watching YouTube videos and learning about it and researching cylinder squares and learning how to regrind a cylinder square and watching all the Don Bailey suburban tool videos.
00:26:33
John S
I know, I know.
00:26:34
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, I'm having fun with it. So like I related to fixing up my old Amazon.
00:26:40
John S
Yeah.
00:26:40
johngrimsmo
No point. Fun.
00:26:42
John S
Oh, I kind of, I'm more sympathetic than that. That was cool.
00:26:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, of course. um Anyway, that's where I'm at with that. um Sort of guilty pleasure, but in a weird way. i don't know I don't know how I feel about it, but I find myself doing it, so I'm not going to shoot myself too much about it.
00:26:55
John S
Yeah.
00:27:00
johngrimsmo
But it is it has ah sparked my re-interest in surface grinding.
00:27:06
John S
My hesitation, well, first off, there is a way for this to make money for you. It's to put that grinder on marketplace and sell the damn thing.
00:27:13
johngrimsmo
Sure, fair.
00:27:14
John S
In fact, I think there's a, there, I think is actually some demand for your setup in the knife world for that.
00:27:15
johngrimsmo
Which I've had that option for the past 10 years and I haven't done it.
00:27:22
John S
I mean, it's a, for a knife machine like that with the belt grinding, it's pretty good. It's, it was not their finest hour from a machine build. And yes, they did.
00:27:30
johngrimsmo
yeah and they stopped making it. i heard They stopped offering it.
00:27:32
John S
Right.
00:27:33
johngrimsmo
I don't know when. um And I.
00:27:34
John S
Yeah. That's my hesitation is you're, you're, you're trying to, you own a Ferrari and you're now, you're now thinking that you're going learn and have fun on a clapped out Miata here.
00:27:40
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:45
John S
Like that was road hard and put away wet. Like it's not.
00:27:47
johngrimsmo
Yep, yep.
00:27:47
John S
a Yeah.
00:27:49
johngrimsmo
and But I own a Ferrari that I don't drive. And it's it's pretty fun to, you know, drive a mountain road and ah clap down Miata sometimes.
00:27:53
John S
I know. Yeah.
00:27:59
John S
No, I know. Maybe it's a bad analogy. The thing is, if there's one takeaway, maybe is that, um yes, huge amounts of respect for the service grinder. But, um you know, as long as you get the magnet, make sure the magnets on and your workpiece is secure and you're aware, you're conscious of your Z, you're not going to crash it.
00:28:18
John S
And especially doing what you're going to do you're only going to use it
00:28:20
johngrimsmo
You're talking about the big Okamoto?
00:28:21
John S
The Okamoto, exactly.
00:28:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:28:22
John S
You're only going to use it when you're really focused and paying attention. You probably where mistakes happen is if you use the thing eight hours a day and you get so monotonous and you've one time to forget.
00:28:28
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:28:31
John S
Like the guy who, the the professional skydiver who forgets his parachute type of thing. um I could teach you to run there that Okamoto in 20 minutes, John, if that.
00:28:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I believe you could, yeah.
00:28:40
John S
So go use that thing.
00:28:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah. yeah
00:28:42
John S
Sell the darn PSG. ps
00:28:45
johngrimsmo
Do... See, I don't even know the answer to this. I think I do. Can you manually run the Okamoto?
00:28:52
John S
yeah
00:28:52
johngrimsmo
Like, ah do you?
00:28:53
John S
it's Yeah, we do um we don't manually run it in in and X. So you can jog it left to right with a handle. We don't do that.
00:29:04
John S
but what we
00:29:04
johngrimsmo
Left or right is the usually automatic or hydraulic on the fancy machines, but on the Okamoto it's servo driven, whatever.
00:29:12
John S
No, yours and mine still have hydraulic left to right.
00:29:15
johngrimsmo
Really?
00:29:15
John S
Yeah, you have to go to the CNC control to have an actual screw on your X. So you still have hydraulic fluid that runs an actuator that goes left to right.
00:29:21
johngrimsmo
Hmm. Interesting. I did not.
00:29:23
John S
um So what we'll do when we want to do something quote-unquote manual is we will... get the head close to it in, I'm gonna use knowing axes here so i don't confuse the audience, because it's like a horizontal machine, but it's not worth explaining it.
00:29:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:36
John S
I bring the table over in Y, so I'm right over my part, I come down in Z, so I'm right above my part, and then I turn the X axis on, so the table's moving left to right, and then I jog down by with the hand wheel in Z until I start hitting a spark, and then if I need to move in Y a little bit, I can move in Y with a
00:29:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:29:52
John S
jog wheel handle but a lot of times I'm just trying to to dust off or kiss off a surface and so I absolutely run it manually that way and it works quite well
00:30:00
johngrimsmo
Cool. Cool. And ah in this case, Z and Y are servo-driven handwheels.
00:30:07
John S
flipped yes they're
00:30:10
johngrimsmo
You're not leading a ball screw or a lead screw or something. Like, it's a jog wheel.
00:30:16
John S
The way you do the the other two access correct is done with digital pulse on a ah click click.
00:30:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I'm just thinking like feedback, like on a manual grinder, you feel the lead screw, you're, you know.
00:30:25
John S
You don't. No, you don't feel here.
00:30:28
johngrimsmo
Okay, that's interesting.
00:30:29
John S
No. yeah
00:30:32
johngrimsmo
And did you get the Okamoto balancing stand?
00:30:36
John S
We ended up buying one um after market because it's easy to do so for a quarter of the price.
00:30:45
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I think we got the Okamoto one and the guys seem to like it. Yeah.
00:30:49
John S
Yeah, it's not <unk>s not great. It's okay. um Spencer Webb makes a nice one, but he doesn't make it for the bigger wheels yet that I know of.
00:30:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yep.
00:30:57
John S
um And i mean, the the grinding guys out there, huge respect. You're probably gonna kill me for saying this. a it's ah You should balance the wheel. We do balance the wheel. But then there's a feedback loop of after you balance it, you put it back on, then you dress it.
00:31:12
John S
Then you really need to rebalance. Like you can kind of... Like I, we grind parts where I'm very happy with how they turn out, but it's not the same quality. We'll get better over time. If you really shove a PFG stone on there and find it, you'll find, you'll be able to find some wheel hop.
00:31:27
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:31:28
John S
It's not measurable with a, it's just a kind of what's the end goal here.
00:31:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Since we lap our parts afterwards, um, and they're warpy thin blades, um, we do see that finish.
00:31:38
John S
Yeah.
00:31:40
johngrimsmo
I think the guys balance the wheel even throughout the life as it gets smaller because the grain distribution is just different weight.
00:31:44
John S
Okay.
00:31:48
johngrimsmo
Like when it's halfway worn out than when it's totally new. Um, I think, I'm not sure how often they balance it, but I think they, they take their time and they balance it really well. And, um,
00:31:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so I'm in this weird position where it's like I i hear about it. I've seen them do it. I'm not involved, but I'm curious. And, you know, I ask them questions and stuff, but I'm it's i'm not hands on. It's one of the only machines in the shop that I i don't know how it works, really.
00:32:09
John S
Yeah, sure. Yep.
00:32:14
johngrimsmo
um Which has been cool, but now it's kind of bugging me.
00:32:18
John S
we should probably explain because i certainly didn't know this as well as i do now where You buy a grinding wheel. it's not It's not necessarily, quote unquote, terribly unbalanced, but it's not perfectly balanced on its own, let alone after you mount on the Arbor wheel.
00:32:31
John S
You put on the Arbor and you dress it. You've now trued up the outside wheel relative to the Arbor's axis of rotation, which is great.
00:32:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Cool.
00:32:39
John S
in In theory, it should help how it's balanced. But if you've ever had a wheel weight to go out on on a car, which very ironically just happened on my truck, I was like, weird.
00:32:46
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:32:47
John S
I have a pretty bad steering wheel vibration between like 30 and 50. Doesn't happen below that, doesn't happen over that. Took it into the shop. wheel weights. That's all it was.
00:32:55
John S
Wheels were out of balance. So that's what happens with the grinding wheel is you'll have, think about spinning a wheel at 3000 RPMs and then you just add a little bit of eccentric weight that causes it to have a moment of imbalance.
00:32:55
johngrimsmo
cool
Precision vs Practicality in Manufacturing
00:33:07
John S
Literally just, that's all it is. And the smaller you make that amount of weight or the more you improve it, which again, dressing may help, but it's not perfect, um helps avoid that sort of wheel hoppy thing.
00:33:19
johngrimsmo
Because that's a heavy mass of stone and binder whatever that's literally going woo woo wo wo exaggerated, which is going to microscopically cut deeper on every revolution as it traverses across your part, right?
00:33:26
John S
Right.
00:33:33
John S
You know, how that, yes, except I don't know, um this would be a kind of a Renzetti we're going to start saying Silo because he's, he's, yeah, he's awesome.
00:33:43
John S
um In theory, then what you're saying is that, again, to switch it to how your phone, your iPhone vibrates, it has a motor that has an eccentric weight on it and that turns on and it creates a vibration in your phone.
00:33:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:33:55
John S
That's the same problem we're dealing with. Only there it's a desired feature.
00:33:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:59
John S
um If this is all true, then you should be able to put a measuring device or an indicator on the top of your spindle casting. And you should be able to watch the whole thing dive in and out because, well, there that may not be a one-to-one, but it's not like the wheel is floating in the arbor or all.
00:34:13
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:34:19
johngrimsmo
No, true.
00:34:20
John S
So, so you should see it there. And and like, this is tough.
00:34:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's just ah a rigid vibration in a very stable, solid cast iron machine that weighs thousands and thousands of pounds.
00:34:24
John S
Right.
00:34:29
johngrimsmo
But still, vibration is vibration.
00:34:31
John S
Right.
00:34:31
johngrimsmo
That's why they balance tool holders. And you know you's spin merry tool holder at 20,000 RPM. Well, they say they're rated to 25,000 because they test them.
00:34:40
John S
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.
00:34:42
johngrimsmo
And it's like grams per, I forget.
00:34:42
John S
Yeah.
00:34:45
John S
Doesn't take much.
00:34:46
John S
Oh yeah. That G 2.5, whatever.
00:34:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it doesn't take much.
00:34:48
John S
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:50
johngrimsmo
isn
00:34:50
John S
To some extent, this goes back to the insurance thing of like, it's fun. I like to learn more. I like to make sure i'm not getting fleeced here, or ruining and tool holders and spindles, but like, it's also like go make parts.
00:34:57
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep.
00:34:59
John S
Like, yeah you know, yeah.
00:35:00
johngrimsmo
Exactly. Yep. Where's the balance there? Yeah.
00:35:03
John S
Right.
00:35:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I think lapping has become such a big part of our life. Um, and my, my interest and passion that grinding is the step right before lapping, you know?
00:35:12
John S
Yeah.
00:35:12
johngrimsmo
So the the flatness, um, it's just fascinating.
00:35:18
John S
Lapping, remind me, you lap on solid plates or the the plates accept?
00:35:23
johngrimsmo
Depends on what you're doing.
00:35:24
John S
Well, guess what I'm wondering is that I would think that a lapping plate would soak up some of those. i mean, those those um grinding feed-forward lines, what do you call them? Those lines are so shallow that I wouldn't think...
00:35:46
John S
a lap being would, I would think a lapping plate would conform to them, but maybe I'm talking ah way out of line here.
00:35:51
johngrimsmo
No, I'd say the lapping plate is like, say you have a cast iron hand lapping plate, a six inch cast iron disc that is flat and has diamonds embedded into it.
00:35:58
John S
Yeah.
00:36:00
johngrimsmo
It's not moving and conforming. Its goal is for it to be super rigid and the imbalance or unevenness of your part is now lapping against these fixed diamonds.
00:36:01
John S
Yeah. I see your point. Yeah.
00:36:09
John S
Yeah.
00:36:10
johngrimsmo
into the surface. um So as I lap our surface ground parts, um we do a lot of soft surface grinding on like 20 RC stainless, which you it's hard.
00:36:21
John S
That's hard.
00:36:23
johngrimsmo
You have to dress the wheel like a coarse dress, an open dress in order to not load up and not be crappy.
00:36:26
John S
Open dress. Yeah.
00:36:30
johngrimsmo
But that leaves deeper scratches, deeper linear lines in the surface.
00:36:33
John S
Okay.
00:36:35
johngrimsmo
So when we're lapping that surface or if I'm hand lapping it, I see like it takes a while to get through the streaks of, you know, as the grain is clawing and cutting away the material from your dress.
00:36:47
John S
Okay.
00:36:47
johngrimsmo
So imagine if you had a super coarse dress, it's going to leave streaks in your part.
00:36:52
johngrimsmo
Now these are super tiny.
00:36:52
John S
Interesting.
00:36:53
johngrimsmo
um And then something that, uh, Hacko and Adam the Machinist and Lainey Machine to um Tech have been reposting.
00:37:05
johngrimsmo
And I actually have them bookmarked. One of the few things I have bookmarked on Instagram is cross grinding.
00:37:08
John S
Yeah.
00:37:10
johngrimsmo
It's where you take, you grind the part and then you rotate 90 degrees on the magnet and hit it again without changing your C.
00:37:14
John S
yeah
00:37:16
John S
We talk about this with like the Don Bailey guy doing it with like, you know, with the magnets at like 0.3% residual pond.
00:37:19
johngrimsmo
Oh yeah, with the circular slide around kind of thing. Yep, yep.
00:37:24
John S
You're like waiting for the part to fly across the room.
00:37:26
johngrimsmo
Exactly. so ah But apparently that will cut the sure the linear lines by 90 degrees and flat them again.
00:37:35
John S
but Yeah.
00:37:37
johngrimsmo
I just want to try it. so
00:37:41
John S
It's fine.
00:37:42
johngrimsmo
It's fun. It's fun. It's fun to think. it's it's like it's ah It's an aspect of manufacturing that is so so basic that's been around for 100 years. like Surface grinding, every tool maker knows how to surface grind. It's it's I just feel like i'm missing out.
Shop Improvements and Team Initiatives
00:37:57
John S
the two power tools we had growing up were a drill press and a bench grinder.
00:38:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:38:01
John S
And I just remember thinking as I was starting to get into machining, I was like, well, i don't know what the surface grinders are all about. Cause we have a bench grinder in the basement and that thing was not, it's all how you'd be wanting to get accurate anything.
00:38:10
johngrimsmo
and It's the same thing, but imagine motorizing that. Cool.
00:38:16
John S
Yeah. Yeah. Uh,
00:38:20
johngrimsmo
Cool.
00:38:22
John S
um Hey, we had a real win and I want to share it because it feels good, especially since I was feeling like the improvements we made this year kind of took up more of like my time and just were more, which is that um Henry Holsters had these Milwaukee backpack vacuums and I liked them.
00:38:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:38:36
johngrimsmo
two
00:38:38
John S
And then I looked at them. They're not cheap. They're two, 300 bucks or something. And at first I was like, okay, those are a no brainer. And I was like, no, don't just buy it because you saw it and it looks fancy. Like let's wait. And then I waited. And I think that's an important lesson for both of us, frankly, is like,
00:38:52
John S
Whether you're obsessed with surface grinders or I'm obsessed with the newest gadget I saw, like, just wait for a week or two.
00:38:56
John S
Make sure you've got the framework to implement it and use the tool don't just buy it because it's a shiny gadget. But I realized, no, we we love having um the more sort of portable We have a couple of handheld DeWalt vacuums that are great. And i was like, I do think we would like this um Milwaukee backpack vacuum. And so we bought it and then i was like, I want this done right. And so we ordered some SendCutSend, we ordered a SendCutSend wall mounted bracket, just came in, mounted on the wall.
00:38:56
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:39:23
John S
got the shoulder straps right there. So when you want to use the vacuum, you just back up to it, throw the straps on like a backpack and you can go around and vacuum what you want and then you put it right back. And when I was doing that, that in and of itself was a win. And then when i was doing it right next to where I mounted it, we had a probably four inch sheet rock drywall like it looked like an old uh logo or sticker from before we were even in the shop had torn up the dry one it just looked bad and i walked 30 feet we had a tupperware bin on our back racking that was drywall repair supplies there was putty in it or spackle uh the tool uh putty knife to spread it and within 90 seconds of deciding i wanted to do it i had it done like that's like feels great
00:40:01
johngrimsmo
No. Yep. Yep. Yeah, that's a huge win.
00:40:13
johngrimsmo
What else you got?
00:40:13
John S
ah What else is going on?
00:40:17
johngrimsmo
um With um St. Patrick's Day coming up, I think only one of our guys is Irish, but ah we're doing some special Norsemen with ah yeah St.
00:40:26
John S
Ooh.
00:40:28
johngrimsmo
Patty's Day theme.
00:40:29
John S
Nice. I like that.
00:40:30
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so that's going to be really cool.
00:40:30
John S
That's cool.
00:40:31
johngrimsmo
So the guys totally had the idea of running with it. I'm providing you know assistance as necessary, but they're running with it. It's awesome. Yeah, it's been really fun.
00:40:41
John S
Good. Good. We um finally installed the fixture plate on the new Tormach 1500 and then Caleb is running with tooling and then we're building out a work holding library for that machine.
00:40:48
johngrimsmo
Ah, good.
00:40:53
John S
And what I mean by that is i want it to be the ideal R&D machine for a shop.
00:40:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:40:58
John S
And so we have two mechanical puck chucks on the left side of the fixture plate. um And that'll give us hot swappability. We can use those small china electrode vices. We have some fifth axis vices, like just smaller vices can spot on or off.
00:41:13
John S
We have a quick change um super glue fixture that mounts on there. So an aluminum plate that is decked with the pull studs for the puck jugs.
00:41:19
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:41:21
John S
If you want to do a super glue job, you just put that plate right on there and you've got a surface that should be flat enough in Z. You could redecked it if you needed to. um And then we have a six inch traditional vice on the right side that's on the fixture plate directly, but with diamond pins. so You can take it on and off with no tramming.
00:41:37
John S
And then we also have a I bought a ah regular, um, no not electromagnetic, a regular magnetic chuck with a, you know, hex tool to turn on and off.
00:41:48
johngrimsmo
for the mill.
00:41:48
John S
That's also, yeah, because sometimes you want to do some light duty work on something that's Ferris.
00:41:50
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:41:53
John S
And so there's a magnetic chuck there. Just put it on and then that's there. And then the last thing was, which we haven't done yet will be a three jaw round chuck that I'm out to the fixture plate.
00:42:01
johngrimsmo
e That would be super helpful.
00:42:02
John S
And then think about that. Like all those tools are right there. They're ready to use hot swappable, no alignment.
00:42:05
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep.
00:42:08
johngrimsmo
What a great showcase for your fixture plate, like, like, obviously, and and you should push that hard, like, you know,
00:42:11
John S
Yes. Yes. That too. yeah
00:42:17
John S
I will, but the that's also a byproduct of just like, that's how we'll do a video showing it off. The point is not to sell Saunders. The point is this is what a great little R&D machine can be.
00:42:26
johngrimsmo
Yep. Well, it's... Can't it be both?
00:42:29
John S
Sure, sure.
00:42:32
johngrimsmo
I like it.
00:42:32
John S
that's probably a topic we should talk about which is like advertising versus marketing and we we in in inadvertently market but we don't advertise and um maybe we should we're also we don't need to right now so it's kind one of those like but do you dig your well before you're thirsty yeah
00:42:36
johngrimsmo
Mmm. That's a good point.
00:42:42
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:42:46
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:42:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. Yep.
00:42:52
John S
um what else we have today
00:42:55
johngrimsmo
Today I'm making, oh okay. So when we're making the fjell blade, the soft blade on, I think it's made on the Kern, make it on the Kern, we have a chamfer on the top of the blade, it's an eighth inch thick blade, chamfer on the top of the blade and a chamfer on the bottom of the blade.
00:43:05
John S
Yep.
00:43:14
johngrimsmo
And we're using a thread mill, 60 degree, single point thread mill to chamfer the top and the bottom.
00:43:15
John S
Okay. Yep.
00:43:20
johngrimsmo
And any variation in thread mill from one to the next
00:43:24
John S
I remember this.
00:43:25
johngrimsmo
or any Z height variation, or if the fixture is not super flat and level, um it all stacks up into this, you know, two or three chow chamfer being a six chow chamfer on the top and a zero chow chamfer on the bottom and a total problem.
00:43:38
John S
Right.
00:43:39
johngrimsmo
So I've been just attacking it bit by bit by bit. We have three blade fixtures. um We ended up surface grinding them and now
Innovations in Clamping and Machining
00:43:47
johngrimsmo
they measure, when mounted on the current, they measure like less than a 10th of deviation, which is awesome.
00:43:54
johngrimsmo
And then, Now we're op using the optical comparator to measure every single thread mill that comes in and figuring out what comp it needs. Like this deviates from the fusion model by a one thou. So we're putting a one thou length comp in the machine.
00:44:08
johngrimsmo
And then the last thing is I took the fixture out and I put on the surface plate and I started sweeping the top of the blade, like the blade itself to see, okay, the fixtures level is the blade level and the blade is tilting.
00:44:22
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, This doesn't make sense. Take the blade off, mic the blade. The blade's flat to like a tenth or two. And then put it back on the fixture and it's tilting by over a thou. I'm like, what the heck?
00:44:36
johngrimsmo
And it turns out it's due to the way I'm clamping it. And I have these little tiny clamps that are, you know, kicking it up.
00:44:41
John S
Mm-hmm. Sure.
00:44:44
John S
sure
00:44:45
johngrimsmo
So then, because I thought I could make one one tiny little clamp that I can use multiple times for all different uses called the ultimate blade clamp. And it works for some things, but it's not going work for years. So then the other night I sat at home and I'm like, how big of a clamp can I make? Because I need to cover as much of this blade as possible in order to ah secure it downwards.
00:45:06
johngrimsmo
um So I basically made like a three inch by two and a half inch clamp that covers two blades and covers every exposed surface of the blade while still leaving tool holder clearance so I don't start chewing up tool holders and collets.
00:45:19
John S
You're right. Sure.
00:45:21
johngrimsmo
um And using fusion simulation with machine sim has been extra awesome for this. um
00:45:27
John S
You mean just having the milling machine in the simulation now?
00:45:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I mean, the tool holder shows it too, but it's just cool to see the whole current machine stuff.
00:45:31
John S
Okay.
00:45:35
John S
Yeah.
00:45:37
johngrimsmo
um I'm using Phil's post. It's posting great.
00:45:39
John S
Good.
00:45:40
johngrimsmo
And yeah, it's all coming together. But one stupid little chamfer has led to a whole string of improvements and learning, you know.
00:45:50
John S
But those those things get you like the the fact that there's, you're machining your part in a, not a constrained state, in a warped state means that, i mean, at the level you sometimes care about, it's like that sidewall is now and not perpendicular because of the one that, like it's minor, except that like sometimes you chase your tail, you don't know why, you know?
00:46:07
johngrimsmo
Sure. Yeah.
00:46:12
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. So I think we're dialing it in. And I think I machined a clamp. um And it was this traditional in a vice, put your block in the vice, you know, grip it, machine up one, flip it over, center it left to right, machine up two.
00:46:26
John S
Yeah.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
And it was... I even used gauge blocks to try to get it ah perfectly left to right, like in fusion it's 1.4 or whatever. um And then I machined the part and it was off by quite a bit front to back.
00:46:42
John S
Okay.
00:46:42
johngrimsmo
And I like, what?
00:46:44
johngrimsmo
Did I flip it the wrong way? Did I, I don't know. It turns out I didn't clamp it properly on the step of the vise. I clamped it under the step, and I could tell under the microscope because this like line of deformation.
00:46:52
John S
Oh, good grief. Hilarious. Yeah, right, right.
00:46:58
johngrimsmo
I'm like, oh, you noob. like Okay, I'll make another one right after the podcast here. So that's what I'm up to today.
00:47:06
John S
That's a great segue to, we have a product that we now, we prototyped the first one earlier this week. Well, yeah, earlier this week, which will be a Saunders Machine Works ID expanding pin.
00:47:18
John S
And that segues directly into what you just talked about, which is that we have realized um there are a lot of times where any form of clamping across the whole part, you squeeze it in a vice, squeezing it with talons, squeezing it with a uniforce,
00:47:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:34
John S
You're bowing the part. You're putting pressure on the part. You're squeezing the part when you're making features, which means they will change when you relax them.
00:47:39
johngrimsmo
e
00:47:40
John S
And the ability to clamp, if you have features that allow you to use an IV clamp, which many parts don't, but some do, those are much more neutral to the overall part itself.
00:47:51
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:47:54
John S
And we have a little business case thesis around like, okay, we are to these. We're going to make them different diameters. We're make some that are nominal, some that are user adjustable, like whatever.
00:48:04
John S
I'm excited about it. Exactly.
00:48:04
johngrimsmo
Like machine the outside kind of thing?
00:48:06
John S
Yeah. Yeah. they're They're great. They're great. We use them all the time now.
00:48:07
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:48:11
johngrimsmo
Good. And are you, not to get corporate here, but are you making them different than other ones on the market?
00:48:12
John S
Yeah.
00:48:19
John S
Yeah.
00:48:20
johngrimsmo
Cool.
00:48:20
John S
Yep. Yep. Definitely.
00:48:21
johngrimsmo
That's good.
00:48:22
John S
We've got some... um we Alex is doing some testing right now of the question is how do you secure the whole clamp into the fixture plate, but also be able to loosen and tighten the expanding mandrel part of it um without affecting the clamp itself and so forth.
00:48:38
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:48:41
John S
So that's what we're testing to make sure we cover the extreme cases. But like i said, we're already using them now.
00:48:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:48:46
John S
Um, and it's, uh, it's great. And the ah on the, it's like the perfect Willemann part because, you know Grant is literally, he's doing like deep ID features on the part. We're doing left, right hand threads, taper threads.
00:48:58
johngrimsmo
Yes.
00:48:59
John S
We're doing deburring along slitting saw edges. Like they just look awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:04
johngrimsmo
That's awesome. Yeah, I'd love to see more about that as you make them.
00:49:08
John S
Will do.
00:49:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Cool, cool.
00:49:10
John S
Cool. See you. Actually I'm out next week. So two weeks work for you.
00:49:13
johngrimsmo
Two weeks? Okay, sounds good, man.
00:49:14
John S
Okay. Sounds good.
00:49:15
John S
See you. Bye.
00:49:15
johngrimsmo
Okay, bye.