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What If...? Ultron Won? Episode 8
767 Plays4 years ago
Brian V. Klein (BVK) of the Source Pages podcast joins Zuhair & J Scotty to discuss the penultimate episode of What If...? Season 1!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
On this entry of Animation Deliberation, we are covering Episode 8. That's right, Episode Ocho of Marvel Studios, What If? What If Ultron won? And we're going to get right into that right after these ads that we don't have any say over whatsoever. You're invited to explore cypress swamps and magical gardens and float along the rushing waters of an old-fashioned swimming hole. Plan your journey at visitmississippi.org slash outdooradventure. Mississippi. Wanderers welcome.
00:00:44
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words. One, two, three, it's time for... Animation. The liberation. A conversation and a celebration. Of our favorite action animated series. Yeah.
00:01:00
Speaker
How was lip syncing along? I just, I just do the head bob while it's going on. I felt it. I felt it. Thanks guys. Welcome back to animation deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. I am your guide as we ponder this multiverse of questions. And,
Podcast Setup and Guest Introduction
00:01:22
Speaker
uh, I'm Jay Scottie St. Clair and I am joined of course by Mr. Zuhair Ali. How you doing Zuhair?
00:01:28
Speaker
So the farther that we get into the series and we see more of a watch, you get a higher rank every episode as well. Is that how this is working? We've gone from like Wong's accomplice to apprentice to traveling dimensions to now you are a guide as well. I dig it. I dig it. I'm doing well. Uh, getting over this move. It's finally over settling in trying to get my, my podcasting station back together, but, uh, it's good to be here.
00:01:56
Speaker
Right on,
Developing 'What If?' and Character Roles
00:01:57
Speaker
right on. The other voice that we heard there is a regular guest to Animation Deliberation, but I'm surprised that we have not had him on for what if, yet, Mr. Brian V. Klein, aka BVK. What's up? How you doing, buddy? Shut, shut, guys. How are you doing? I'm doing great.
00:02:12
Speaker
doing good, doing good, excited to discuss some what if, and you've got source pages. You guys actually did an episode a few weeks back on Owatu. So I feel like with this episode in particular, it's kind of the perfect time when we've got one more to go to go back and check that episode out. If you are as fascinated with Owatu and his more active role, go back and check that out.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, it was. We did it right before the season started and just got a primer out there because a lot of the stuff that's coming out, especially with this show, was no one really knew of the Watchers more than those random weird looking guys that showed up in Guardians 2. Right. Right. And so this gives you what their, you know,
00:02:52
Speaker
Their purpose is, and it's been, I've loved so far, just my brief synopsis of the series so far, it's been great. I love this alternate, and plus with it being the end of Loki, these are all realities of the MCU.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah. Anything can happen. It is the first canonical animated entry in the MCU. So we are definitely excited to break it all down. But before we get into this episode in particular, we got some feedback.
Tonal Variations in 'What If?' Episodes
00:03:20
Speaker
We got some feedback that we, for the Thor episode, I know that we kind of missed. So I'm excited to get back to that. And then we also got some feedback for the more recent episodes. So Zuhair, you've got those prepared for us, correct? I do. Cool. Let's do it.
00:03:37
Speaker
And so to go on the past episodes first, just to kind of build up to what we're doing, we got emo from Emily Cecil. Hello, my wonderful MCU cast family and first time writing into animation deliberation.
00:03:51
Speaker
Thank you. So this is by far my favorite episode of What If. A lot of the episodes I have not been into, like the first one and the zombies episode. The story lines just did not do it for me in those episodes. This one along with the Star Wars Shorchala are my absolute favorites. This one had my two all time favorite characters of Captain Marvel and Loki in such an amazing way. Hiddleston is absolutely hilarious and his Jotun Prince Loki self was such a creative addition to the episode
00:04:21
Speaker
What I loved was Captain Marvel being a total badass, sassy, clearly more powerful than Thor himself. She truly is the strongest Avenger of Love, All of You 3000.2.
00:04:35
Speaker
That's that's great feedback and I think that's the thing with that episode episode seven. What if Thor was an only child? It's it's definitely
Connecting 'What If?' with the MCU
00:04:44
Speaker
one of the more light hearted and when we talked about it, we kind of compared it to the zombies episode which she brought up as well and it's just
00:04:51
Speaker
That's the nice thing about this series, you have the opportunity to embrace some exaggerated and over the top tones. And in this case, it was more lighthearted and comedic. But then obviously, it was like the Doctor Strange and the zombies episodes. They're a little more dark and whatnot. And I myself do find myself kind of resonating with some of the ones that are a little more
00:05:13
Speaker
I guess, impactful, like the Killmonger episode comes to mind and then episode three, what if Earth's Mightiest Heroes were killed off? Like those are the
Ultron's Victory and Infinity Stones
00:05:23
Speaker
ones that I really like, but don't get me wrong, I had an absolute blast with the Thor episode. What did you guys think? I mean, Zuhar, we obviously talked about it. Oh yeah, the Thor episode was great because it was a departure. It did end up, you know, like I said, it was so lighthearted and then at the end with the
00:05:40
Speaker
What the, you know, when Ultron vision shows up like, Oh, here's a turn. Cause that's what I was going to say is that I disagree in a sense, like the zombies episode, I probably watched that maybe five or six times because that is by far my favorite. Not only, I mean, again, another selfless plug here. We covered one of the zombie issues for spark and it pretty much had a lot of the same.
00:06:03
Speaker
points that this episode was. The one that was kind of freaky that Hailey did not like was in the comic they were using T'Challa as like a snack, like platter pretty much. And they used that in the comic and they were like, oh, that's the same thing they're doing in the episode of What If. But yeah, every single one of them has had its
00:06:26
Speaker
purpose. And the Thor one was just a lot of it was just a fun romp. And, you know, it pretty much was. Natalie Portman did great coming back. And, you know, like I said, I just did this show has to me a lot of rewatchability. Yeah, what I'm realizing as we watch these episodes, too, is that it's really hard to pick a favorite because each one is really embracing a different genre as well. So it's like, you know,
00:06:53
Speaker
you're trying to compare like your favorite horror movie to your favorite comedy. Like it's hard to say which one's better than the other because it really is apples and oranges. And I feel like that's what each of these episodes are doing. But now with the episode that we're covering today seems like it's going back to phase one of the MCU where we have all these individual stories that you question how they're related because they're in different parts of the world, different people, different stories. But now we're coming to that thing that's like binding them together. Yeah.
00:07:20
Speaker
And on episode one, we were wondering, like, how is this going to be connected? Is this from the same universe and different parts? Are
Ultron's Portrayal and Impact
00:07:28
Speaker
they different stories? And now not only are we seeing
00:07:32
Speaker
how these stories actually can be connected, but we're seeing that there's actually a possibility that what's happening in this animated series may actually heavily affect what's happening in this sacred timeline that we know is the MCU movies that we know and love with Phase 4 progressing next year with the film part.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. We'll get into it when we, when we talk about episode eight in particular. Yeah. But I agree this as, as fun as the series has been as, as much as it's been, you know, a little bit of the familiar with small smatterings of the new, uh, yeah, this episode has me very optimistic for the rippling ramifications for the, the MCU proper. Uh, but with that being said, we can probably pivot to the, the feedback that pertains to this episode.
00:08:19
Speaker
All right, so Andre Sparks writes, I wanted to get your thoughts. That's a very dangerous request. Do you think this Ultron is from a reality where Ultron got his perfect vision body and then destroyed the Avengers? Or is he from this reality's future? But why would he go back to the past theories? Some people also ask how he would have gotten the soul stone. He probably had wanted to sacrifice her brother for the soul stone. My question is, how did he even know about the stones? What do you think?
00:08:50
Speaker
Spoiler alert. I think something is going to be answered in the next episode as far as Gamora goes because some of the merchandising has spoiled that, I guess, if you want to say, because we really haven't seen her. I don't think we've really, I mean. No, she hasn't appeared at all, even though we saw the Guardians very briefly this episode.
00:09:10
Speaker
Right. I mean, spoiler alert, I guess it's really not a spoiler, but there is merchandise out there that just says Gamora, daughter of Thanos. And it's pretty much, I think, her continuing with what she would have done and not have broken off to go with the Guardians and done everything that Thanos had raised her to do. And even if Thanos isn't there, she's still the one that was... So she would have told Thanos about
00:09:39
Speaker
Vormir, which is why he had the stone when he went to Earth to find the last stone and Vision was just like, or sorry, Ultron was just like, interesting. Boom. Yeah. Fascinating.
Ultron's Existential Crisis and Character Dynamics
00:09:52
Speaker
Fascinating. That's right. Yeah. I don't know. I guess as far as Andre's question, is he asking if Ultron knew about the soul stone or Thanos knew about how he knew about the soul stone?
00:10:06
Speaker
I think Thanos had all of the stones when he showed up, except for the one, except for the one that the mind starts. So when, so when he absorbed all that, he had all six of them, then he had, he was the infinity Ultron. Right, right. Well, it also begs the question, like, how did he get the, the time stone in that case, because the time stone should, should have still been on earth. And you would think that Ultron, well, Ultron took out humanity at that point. So he may have already like,
00:10:34
Speaker
taken out the ancient one for Thanos or she was probably the only thing that left and Thanos showed up and already had a couple of stones that he was able to overpower her and take it. Okay. That was my head cannon for that one. I like that head cannon that works for me.
00:10:48
Speaker
And he's also sort of had the mindset too is that this was I'm taking everything in this episode from the point of the end of or the middle part of Age of Ultron is when it changed. So the cradle thing was there. So everything that was happening because the time frame like so Guardians of the Galaxy would have still happened because we saw them that little fight scene when they were destroying because that was congruent. I think that was like 2012, wasn't it? Yeah, it was 2012 or 2014 as far as their time frame.
00:11:17
Speaker
Yeah, I want to say that little stuff. So a lot of the stuff was it all changed like anything that happened after that for infinity war endgame or whatever was different because of Ultron vision or whatever you want to call him. So yeah, the collector would still have the collector would still have the power stone at this point, the space don't want to be an Asgard, but we see that he like decimated Asgard. Right.
00:11:44
Speaker
So it was just those three, the three stones that were on earth at one point where they ended up. I mean, I think a lot of the stuff too with this is if you think too hard about it, you're just going to freaking lose your mind. And then that's just taking the fun out of what the whole thing's about. Sure. There was nothing that was obviously contradicting itself because this is what if so. Yeah. Yeah. And if you guys want a little more headcan and like what I came up with, I mean, because I've mentioned this on past episodes too, where it's like,
00:12:14
Speaker
this isn't a bash on anybody but MCU fans have been like so conditioned to look for every single detail that what if trying to compact everything into 20 minutes is like it there's a little bit of over observation and not enough like imagination coming in like as funny as it is and as great as
Clint and Natasha's Relationship
00:12:34
Speaker
the memes have been of um
00:12:36
Speaker
Ultron to slicing Thanos in half. Yeah, I don't see that fight actually ending that quick I feel like it actually was like this amazing showdown like at the end of infinity war Ultron just happened to win and be fascinated with the stones, right? That's that's how my head processes Animations because I just love cartoons growing up and that's how I fell in the gaps. So If Gamora actually does have the strong relationship with Nebula Maybe she tossed Nebula and got the soul stone and then gave it to her father because she wanted her to succeed in this and that
00:13:06
Speaker
But I don't see that fight being short. I feel like it actually was stretched out and long. And there's ways to make this work. But for the sake of us getting what we need to see with the story development, they have to cram it in. And I feel like it's up to us as fans to just use the imagination to fill in the gaps. So that's how I've been head canning it for a while. I don't know what you guys think about that, if you have any like what if this or what if that.
00:13:32
Speaker
No, no, that's that's how my head processing it this week. It's time time constraints is what it always comes down to as far as that goes you can't have I mean, it would be great if every
Cinematic Action and Animation
00:13:40
Speaker
episode was an hour, but they're not so we they have to not the sort of gloss over things that you can assume we've already seen how powerful
00:13:48
Speaker
Ultron was in this episode when, when, uh, Thanos finally showed up. So it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility that something like that could have happened. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with all that. And I am a hundred percent with you in terms of like, when you do have those questions, it's, it's more fun to use your imagination and headcanon to explain those things. But that being said, and we talk about over-examining things can kind of ruin your enjoyment. I do have to say the one thing that kind of like really had me questioning.
00:14:15
Speaker
is we got the revelation in Loki that many of the infinity stones are rendered useless when they like exit their universe. So my question was, was like once Ultron exited his universe and entered the multiverse was should his infinity stones still have been doing anything or was that just
00:14:34
Speaker
Like the Watcher even said he had already transcended like the next level of consciousness. No, because I think I think I've read something too that was basically saying that those infinity stones are rendered useless when they're in the TVA. Oh, OK. OK. So they're in there because I still think and I'm not going to not think this until it's proven otherwise that the TVA is in the quantum realm. OK. So it sort of makes it basically everything like magic doesn't work there. And so those are considered the quote unquote magic.
00:15:04
Speaker
he's still has the stones work wherever they're at. The stones are based on like the singularities, like the purest essence of whatever energy they are. So I guess at the quantum level, like you're, you're basically beyond that things react differently in the quantum realm, even in like in us in real life, the quantum realm has different rules, things can be in two places at one time, they can all the little things that in science fiction, that you think are well beyond
00:15:33
Speaker
reality in the quantum realm in, well, not in quantum, like quantum physics and mechanics say that all these things are possible. We can detect them. We don't know how the hell they're doing it, but it's not for us, I guess, if we understand that, then it's sort of like we're done. I wouldn't want to know. Just understand it for the story's sake and just stick with what we need to over that. Don't try to understand science that nobody actually gets.
00:16:02
Speaker
Right. It's not a real thing. And even if that and some of the stuff, the people that sit there and just pick the minutia of things, it's, it's to me, it sounds like it's, it seems like it's taking the enjoy, you're taking the enjoyment out of it by being so meticulously, you know, ridiculous. I don't understand how my phone works. Totally. And while we're on a little bit more of a philosophical bent like tangent here, I will say it's like,
00:16:31
Speaker
That's part of being human is the pursuit of knowledge and always having questions and not having all the answers as part of the thrill of life. And it just kind of ties into this episode when
00:16:41
Speaker
Ultron had succeeded when he took out Captain Marvel and basically used her as a nuke to like wipe out whatever remaining planets there were, I guess, except for Earth with Clint Natasha there, like the watchers almost doing the same thing that he did to Dr. Strange, where he's kind of like poking at him and be like, you're basically made yourself this this prison here, but he still has
00:17:06
Speaker
purpose. And even though it's not the pursuit of knowledge, it's in a way it kind of is like in his pursuit to destroy all life. He's
00:17:15
Speaker
seeking the knowledge of that life and discovering universes beyond his own. So I like the parallel there. Right. Because I think
Philosophical Themes and Animation Style
00:17:22
Speaker
the watcher, he goes once he basically accomplished his goal, he was enlightened enough to understand the watcher was like, narrating it. And he realizes like, oh, crap, he can hear me. Yeah. You know, that whole revelation that he reached that level of enlightenment was actually really cool. Yeah. And I think that was my only
00:17:42
Speaker
I don't want to say con, but for lack of a better word, I guess it was my only like grievance with the episode was that in the last few episodes, like I had been reiterating that like the watcher is just like a quiet note taker. He's just kind of observing what happens. But when he said like, I'll know all that happens, that's what kind of threw me out of it just a tad bit.
00:18:02
Speaker
Um, because I didn't realize he was like, you know, Kang or the TVA where he knew everything that was going to happen because then it just kind of takes the shock of like, Oh my God, this happened out. So that, that one line threw me out of it a little bit, but that's, that's my only, that's my only like downturn out of this episode. Everything else was amazing.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, I can get that. It's kind of tough when you're dealing with such like heady concepts like a character that simultaneously exists within time but outside of time and is observing and narrating events that he has knowledge about but is experiencing at the same time. It can get a little wishy-washy but I do have to say with that scene when it's basically you're looking at Ultron's face and he's having the pondering and then you see
00:18:50
Speaker
the watcher behind him and the way the camera kind of like pans behind and then Ultron himself turns around to face a watcher. All of that is so effective and the tension is just ratcheted up so much even though this wasn't like a horror episode like some of the other ones where I did find myself like on the edge of my seat more so like Ultron is just
00:19:11
Speaker
I love Age of Ultron, don't get me wrong. It does have its issues and not making Ultron the full menace that he could have been I think is one of those issues. But I feel like this just took the opportunity to make him the true terrifying force that he is in the comics. Oh, definitely. And like you're saying that shot when he was narrating and Ultron's eyes are sort of like looking around.
00:19:34
Speaker
And he's like figuring out like, what is, what is that? And then, yeah, he looks over his shoulder and then what he realizes that he's being noticed. It was just sort of like a, oh, it was almost like the, the, the, the goose pimples are coming out and going, wow, this is sort of, it's transcending itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a hundred percent with you. And if me saying this a million times, hasn't gotten you to watch this, it'll be amazed. But in Earth's Mightiest Heroes, like Ultron was amazing. Like he was a threat every time that he popped up out of nowhere, it was.
00:20:04
Speaker
You know, you felt that there was stakes and as soon as he turned over, that's when the series took a turn from fun. Uh, what kind of, what if stories can we come up with to, Oh my God, what is about to happen? And the fact that it ended with a cliffhanger that could pick up in the next couple of episodes was like, Oh, like this is a big deal now. This could, this could very well affect our sacred timeline. This could very well be something that pushes a story of the MCU further. We could possibly get Ultron back.
00:20:34
Speaker
who knows, but the fact that we're seeing this amazing villain and all this incredible storytelling to the level that we appreciate the MCU is very exciting. Yeah. And you make the comparisons to Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but I also felt vibes to another show that we've covered
00:20:54
Speaker
Here obviously young justice with the character spoilers for for young justice and some DC things as well But you've got the character of Mongol and I can't remember the name of his his giant like battleship the the war planet or whatever but when Ultron's going to Asgard and to Zandar in these various places and he has that like giant orb That his drones swarm out from I definitely got young justice vibes there cool All right, oh it is called war world there's a war world, okay, okay
00:21:24
Speaker
Yep. Cool. Cool. But talking about that, that scene and how impactful it is in the, the lasting ramifications that it could have for the MCU, but just talking about how the camera panned as well.
00:21:35
Speaker
I did find myself in this episode, I felt like it just had a very cinematic feel compared to some of the episodes, especially the opening action sequence with Natasha on the motorcycle in Russia with Clint fighting the Ultron drones. I found myself, I could really picture a lot of those scenes playing out in live action. I just thought they were choreographed really well and fluid.
Human Elements in Superhero Dynamics
00:22:01
Speaker
And I just really enjoyed it. What did you guys think about some of the action in this episode? Oh, I 100% agree with you. It was a lot of times you get taken out of this show, not realizing that you're still watching an animated show, sort of like the Bad Batch. Even though this is more about, I wouldn't call it a simpler animation.
00:22:23
Speaker
It's just, it, everything is so lifelike still that you're sitting there watching it going, Oh, wait a second. I'm watching the animated show here. And it doesn't really even like hit you that much. But yeah, those scenes when they were with the motorcycle and Clint just showing again, how much of a badass Archer he was.
00:22:40
Speaker
is it's ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. I think that was one of the powerful things that the Black Widow movie reiterated as well is that they are humans. And the fact that the two humans of the teams were the ones that survived and their their spy expertise is what's helped them survive and help this apocalyptic world.
00:22:59
Speaker
Is really powerful because you don't have to be. A superhero with all these powers and abilities to be a hero and the fact that they're still like staying on the mission stuff like that and holding their emotional grief you saw how much it affected clinton seeing their ability to hold their own and fight and.
00:23:17
Speaker
And the action sequence were beautifully done, especially when Clint sacrifices himself very end-game style. That was gorgeous. Seeing Vision, not Vision, a lot to armor up and go toe-to-toe with Ultron was amazing. That whole sequence of
Future of 'What If?' and Multiverse Impact
00:23:34
Speaker
every time he got punched, it just went into a different multiverse and you saw different species and stuff like recording them or observing or watching.
00:23:42
Speaker
You see the very like Asgardian essence in the way that the armor was but you saw a lot of Dr. Strange with them using the mirror dimension and how they were using the magic and like there was so many like subtle nods to little things and it was just so detailed and so well thought out and the choreography was just so well put together like I loved every bit of it. It was so gorgeous.
00:24:03
Speaker
Mm hmm. Right now, I just have written down in my notes, badass ultra. So that's sort of just like with him getting all geared up and stuff. And he's just like, I'm done. Yeah, you know, yeah, there was a couple times with this character, like that scene when they were in Siberia in the KGB in the warehouse, I'm going
00:24:22
Speaker
Dude, you've seen already what's been happening. Do something. Just push the box. Show them. Don't sit there and be like, you're so close. You've already gotten someone involved. This is like the end of times.
00:24:34
Speaker
just, you know, break your oath, which we find, you know, he does at the end of this. Sure, sure, sure. But or the episode, but this definitely did feel like I liked the fact that even though it's a continuation from the previous episode, but this did feel like the second act of a three act movie where it was the bad stuff happened, we're getting the resolution to it. And then at the end, it's sort of like, okay, the third act, we're gonna fight this. And with him, you know, we've already seen some clips where we're gonna have the
00:25:03
Speaker
What if Avengers, I guess, if you want to call them all come together and I'm assuming fight Ultron. Yeah. Yeah. I would have to, I would have to imagine so. I mean, obviously the first person that we see him go back to there is.
00:25:17
Speaker
shout out to Jeff Randall here. He coined the term Darkter Strange, which I like. It's awesome. Darkter Strange. Darkter Strange. It's cool seeing him there in the shadows. He looks very Cthulhu Lovecraftian when he's standing in the shadows. You can see the multiple eyes and the tentacles coming out. Oh, yeah. When he first show him and he's got the third eye and then he comes out and he's got that drawn out really skeletal, the really profound cheekbones and just the sunken eyes. Yeah.
00:25:47
Speaker
I even liked the fact that his actual name is Strange Supreme. So it's not Sorcerer Supreme, it's him being formed from the grief and stuff. Interesting. I didn't know that was his moniker, but good to know. And him being as cocky as he is, he of course needs to put his own name into it. Yeah.
00:26:05
Speaker
Oh yeah. But I liked it at the end where he's like, you really want me to say it. I need to hear it. I need you. They made me think of a Thor Darkworld where Loki is like sitting in the prison. You must be truly desperate. That's a good call. Yes.
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah, but it does get me excited thinking back on that Doctor Strange episode. That was some of the most bombastic and theatrical action that we got to see. But we talked about the Siberia sequence and getting to see Owatu with his full power set. But that was a nice thing about this episode. And I think part of the reason it resonated so much is that you did get that grounded spy based action, but then you got to see this cosmic over the top world ending action.
00:26:49
Speaker
A few things stuck out to me in those sequences and I wrote down Kirby cosmic art come to life because anytime they use like power rays or like there was an impact like you got to see like those those classic Kirby designs where he has like the ink splotches that like black out certain parts and then the color just highlights it around it. You basically just got to see that in motion and it was beautiful.
00:27:10
Speaker
to behold. But the other thing that kind of stuck out to me is that it felt like a video game. Zuhair you mentioned where they're like smashing through different parts of the multiverse and it reminded me a lot of like Mortal Kombat or Injustice where like if you get a good combo going you get these great like scene transitions where you basically can smash another character like through a part of the environment and
00:27:32
Speaker
they bust out on yeah so i just like felt like combo breaker especially when you got to see like ultron turn into galactus and just bite down on him like oh that was awesome it was really really cool and i also want to say that i totally appreciate the fact that the design for ultron in this is a lot more based on what the original comic book design looked like
00:27:54
Speaker
with the more profound, if you want to call it like the head wings and just the more angular. It does have a lot of the MCU look to it, but it does have a lot more, especially like the Ultron bots have that classic, you know, 80s, 70s, 80s Ultron look to it from the comics. Yeah, I always wish that the the main Ultron looked as good as the the bots did. Because again, being a Earth's Might as Heroes fan, I really appreciated that look.
00:28:22
Speaker
But before you got on the call, just got in, I was telling him how amazing the Funko for it looks. I like the thing that I really want to get. It looks so cool.
Toy Releases and Cultural Impact
00:28:31
Speaker
I give them kind of credit too, because they sort of had the same kind of quote unquote nesting as we do. They didn't announce anything until like two days after the show aired. So it wasn't like sometimes even back in the day they would announce. I remember when Infinity War came out, they announced a whole bunch of pops on that Friday. And I'm like, come on. I thought so I wasn't spoiled, but even some of them were like Hulk busting out of the Hulkbuster was like, this is great. Wait a second. That wasn't even in the movie.
00:28:57
Speaker
Well, even in Endgame where you saw Thor like in the in the quantum realm soup and he has like the scar over his eye and he's holding Stormbreaker, but like none of that happened. And I was like, oh, this is it's great how they're making like fake Funkos too. And even like when I got the
00:29:16
Speaker
for the Marvel collector core, like when I got the box for what if like I didn't open it because I didn't want to see like what it was. And then I just saw the apocalypse mat and I was like, Oh, I wonder what that's about when I saw the episodes like that's such a cool book go now. Oh, yeah. But that's the thing with any kind of toy design, you have an excellent time that you have to have if you want to have it come out at the time of the release of the movie. So you got to have nine to 12 months. And a lot of times you're just working on either concept stuff or
00:29:44
Speaker
stuff that would have been in the movie. Force Awakens was notorious for releasing the first wave of figures for it for Constable Zubia, who literally was not even in the movie. But they couldn't have done anything about it, because at that time they made it a creative decision to remove them. So a lot of the times, like with the Hulkbuster Hulk,
00:30:00
Speaker
he was planned, but it didn't end up on it ended up on the cutting room floor. So, you know, not to go on a tangent like that, but that's they really have no choice. And actually, I
Ultron's Design and Source Material Influence
00:30:09
Speaker
think that was makes it kind of cooler, because it's sort of like a an alternate version, like, Oh, we got a physical piece of merchandise or something that doesn't even exist in on celluloid. Right, right. But to tie it back to to what if and the design of Ultron there,
00:30:23
Speaker
And talking about Age of Ultron, where I agree with you, I kind of prefer the classic where Ultron's mandibles don't really move. You get the emotion just through the voice and kind of like the lighting up of his eyes and mouth. But I mean, part of that I have to imagine is the fact that you get James Spader. You don't want to just use his voice. You want to get some of his performance. So they felt the need to animate some of the face there. But that being said, it was not James Spader that did the voice of Ultron this time around. It was Ross Marr Kwon.
00:30:50
Speaker
who's become a bit of an MCU staple. He's done a number of voices and he appeared as Red Skull in Infinity War and in-game. So I found myself, I've watched the episode twice and both times it takes me about two to three minutes to get adjusted to the voice he's doing. He's a phenomenal voice actor and he's doing a stand-up job. It is just one of those things where
00:31:16
Speaker
James Spader's voice is so iconic and I've watched Age of Ultron so many times and heard it so many times that there is just a little bit of a disconnect. But I love it when it gets onto the new stuff and when he's achieved like new levels of consciousness and whatnot and getting to hear him say new things as Ultron. That's when it really starts to resonate with me. Yeah. And I think what you said really connected with me about how if you're going to impersonate
00:31:44
Speaker
one of the live action actors like try to kind of add your own flair to it. Like, get as close as you can, but then still like add your own thing. And I think the voice actress for Black Widow did just that. Yeah, where you understand that it is Natasha Romanoff, but it's not 100% Scarlett Johansson, like she's adding her own slack to it. She's adding her own, her own personality to it. And it
00:32:10
Speaker
You know that it's not her, but she does such a good job as Black Widow that you don't care. And I feel the same way with, yeah, I said that the two big ones for me now were the Chris Evans impersonation, now the James Spader one. It was like, it took a little bit of adjustment. I thought that Tom Holland and Tony Stark did a great job. Tom Holland still stands out as the best one for me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:36
Speaker
I think the thing with the Black Widow that sort of throws you off a bit is the fact that the voice actress is playing up against Jeremy Renner and you're so used to ScarJo and Jeremy Renner back and forth that you hear Hawkeye being Hawkeye and you could tell that's Jeremy Renner against
00:32:52
Speaker
the new voice actress, and it just it just takes a little bit to get used to. It's just that that's our programming that we're so used to these things after how many years that it's someone different than OK, well, it's it's it's a different. It's it's Lake Bell doing the voice of Black Widow, and I do think she's doing a really good job. I agree with what you're saying, Zuhair. It's it's capturing the essence of Black Widow without actually sounding just like Scarlett Johansson, but it's close enough. And Lake Bell, I've been hearing her a lot on the Harley Quinn animated series as
00:33:19
Speaker
poison ivy and she just kills it. So, um, really nice to hear again, but I did want to explore like the relationship between Natasha and Clint a little bit, because we talked about Clint's sacrifice, how it's a little bit of an inversion of what we saw in, in game and whatnot. But, um, I, I did think it was kind of fascinating the fact that
00:33:40
Speaker
you know, Clint goes down a dark path no matter what when he loses his family. But when Natasha has Clint there by her side, like we saw an endgame when you know, she's sitting there eating the peanut butter sandwich and down in the dumps because Clint's not there. But when she has Clint by her side, she's like still this like just fount of inspiration and comic relief. And he even tells her like, don't try to make this fun.
00:34:06
Speaker
Right. I just love seeing it. Let's just clarify. Let's just clarify. It's Clint Francis Barton. We find out that Francis is a family named after his Mima. Good old Mima. I don't think they didn't mention that in Endgame, do they? No, but... They just come Clint Barton. I'm glad you bring that up because it was very reminiscent of Endgame as well, where you have Red Skull. He's like, you know, Natasha, son of, what was it, Ivan?
00:34:50
Speaker
Natalia is the Russian version of, because it's Natalia Romanov. I was corrected by this by Hailey and Jeff on our primer about how there's a difference between when you pronounce it in the American version of it or the, because it's Natalia versus Natasha versus Romanov and Romanov and stuff like that.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, daughter son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son, son.
00:35:18
Speaker
It's the same thing, but different. I listened to that episode, but I didn't retain it. Wasn't it Natalia in Iron Man 2? Was Natalia the one in Iron Man? I haven't seen that before. When Pepper introduces her, I think she says Natalia Romanoff, or Natalie? I don't think it was like Natalie Rushman or something like that. Natalie Rushman, that's right. So you see the little changes, the Shang-Chi joke. It's like, well, if you change it to Shang Roshan, of course.
00:35:51
Speaker
And then we got to bring up the fact that Clint was using an Ultron arm.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's just sets up the great joke where need a hand, you know me better than that. Puns aren't really my style. Well, I'll tell you, puns are my style. So I was happy. I was going to say when I saw that, I thought of like, oh, Dave Scott is going to remember that line. What multiverse are we in?
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I know on the DC side of things with like the character of Green Arrow spoilers for DC, but one of the like else world futures, Ollie loses his arm and has a robotic arm. And I
Ultron's Storyline and MCU Connections
00:36:30
Speaker
think that's one of like the similarities with, with Hawkeye and in Green Arrow. Isn't it like in Old Man Logan or Hulk or something like that? Doesn't Hawkeye have like a prosthetic arm? Or am I just misconstruing things? Wasn't he like blind with the prosthetic arm? Is that it? Okay. Yeah.
00:36:50
Speaker
Oh, Hawkeye? Yeah. Come on, comics guy. Sorry, I had a brain. With comics on the mind, and I did bring up, you know, Dr. Strange looking at his darkest there. It did make me think of
00:37:09
Speaker
If you're familiar with this one, Brian, the Jason Aaron run from like 2015 where all magic had been destroyed in the world. So like Dr. Strange has to kind of go back to his roots and he almost, I can't remember all the details, but I feel like he almost has to like tap into like dark magic and he like starts like throwing up like dark magic and stuff. Maybe it's not the same run, but I'm kind of thinking about that. Yeah, I remember there's a lot of that stuff.
00:37:33
Speaker
blends in together. I was thinking about it the other day, the run when Loki becomes Sorcerer Supreme. And I was like, wait a second. That wasn't okay. That was the errand run. That was Dr. Okay. It happens sometimes when you go in, again, this is me not plugging, but plugging unlimited. You go in there and you end up reading like 15, 20 comics in a sitting.
00:37:53
Speaker
And then you go back to remember what you read, and it's like, which one was it? Because you go and jump around so much when you're reading it that a lot of it just ends up blending into one cohesive story, which is kind of hard to recollect where you actually got it from when you go try to go back to look for things. BBK, we need a search protector for all your plugs. I'm not getting paid for any of these either.
00:38:22
Speaker
The side effect of that joke in there. It's good. It's good. How long have you been sitting on that one? The second you said it, the second you said another plug, I was like, huh. But that's the thing about the Marvel universe. And that's the great thing about having a show like Spark. Like, you know, the comics have been going on for what, like, what, 60, 60 years now? Marvel's last year was the 80th celebration of Marvel Comics.
00:38:50
Speaker
It's been Marvel Comics since the 60s. It was different names of it beforehand. That's why the MCU is so great. It does a great job of boiling down the essence and modernizing things for the new times and a new audience and just taking what's great about these story characters and even the newer characters that are getting the opportunity to make their appearances and become endeared to audiences.
00:39:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just, I don't know if you guys have anything else to say about this episode but I'm just riding really high. It's, it's one of those things I feel like with every Marvel show you have like the temptation like the latest episode you want to say is your favorite but I feel like I can be objective enough to say like the
00:39:27
Speaker
that scene that we talked about where Ultron recognizes Owatu and just that fight with Owatu and where we leave off with Owatu actually having to, you know, assemble this team. It has me very, very excited for the way that this series is going to end and impact the MCU proper. Oh, definitely. Because it's everything we've seen. I'm not getting into too much of the, I've read a couple,
00:39:52
Speaker
Generalized spoilers for let there be carnage. Okay, but the connections have everything in the multiverse I mean the multiverse I know some people are saying the multiverse is sort of a cop-out because it allows you to not have to worry too much about Continuity, but I think it's you know DC did it, right? All right. Sorry about that guys. We just got a Message from BBK saying that he lost power. I will try to finish his point to the best of my ability but CW actually did a really good job of
00:40:23
Speaker
Because of the way that they did their shows, Arrow and Flash was on one channel with CW, but then they had Supergirl on CBS
Conclusion and Future Speculations
00:40:31
Speaker
that eventually moved over to CW, so they just said that it was on a different Earth, and they had Black Lightning that was on a different Earth, but when they wanted to wrap everything up with the Arrow story,
00:40:40
Speaker
They found a way to have this threat that was attacking the multiverse and basically like use an ability to kind of like bring it all together and then they continue the stories from there like having like this this one you know prime
00:40:56
Speaker
Prime universe that they were working with now and they did a good job with that in despite it being a TV show and there's a lot more things that can go wrong with stuff like that, but It's it comes back to me personally for in 5g we trust I'm not a huge fan of time travel and multiverse and stuff like that But if somebody's gonna do it, then I will give Marvel a chance for doing it, right? It's the only reason that low-key sits on the bottom and
00:41:21
Speaker
for my rankings of the MCU shows this year. Not that I didn't like it, I absolutely love that show, but because it's so out there on using your imagination and trying to make things work and headcount and stuff like that. That's why I said it at the bottom, but I like what they're doing, I like that.
00:41:39
Speaker
the way that events are going through the MCU right now, like it's not one person's fault. There's been issues and Loki,
Guest Acknowledgment and Promotions
00:41:46
Speaker
there's been issues and what if there's been issues and WandaVision, I feel like all this stuff like connecting is it like whatever's going to happen with this multiverse, if it is multiverse of madness or something in the future or a new threat comes about, like it is going to be the result of a bunch of our heroes making mistakes, not so much one thing that's going to mess it up for everybody else.
00:42:07
Speaker
I'm very excited for Phase Four. I'm excited to see how all of this ties together. And I'm hoping that we get to see a little more of these What If stories in live action. In regards to this episode and the rest of the series, I'm hoping that the rest of the season is a continuation of these two, or of this episode. I think you have two episodes left, correct?
00:42:27
Speaker
Well, we initially thought it was going to be 10 episodes, but we found out like during production they truncated it down to nine episodes. So we've got the one left and then I guess season two or part two, what have you will be coming quicker than we thought. Okay. So I'm hoping that our last episode is a continuation of this. I know I've wanted a continuation of every episode that's happened so far, but the way that this is and how
00:42:53
Speaker
close it is to MCU sacred timeline, I'm hoping that they wrap it up with a really good story that actually connects everything.
00:43:02
Speaker
Yeah, agreed. And in terms of the multiverse being a cop-out, I disagree with that. I think it's just the natural progression of things. It's kind of funny how often, not only in the comics, but in these adaptations, how often Marvel seems to be copying DC or vice versa. They just happen to be doing the same things at the same time. It's just the natural progression of things. You get introduced to these characters, you get endeared to these characters, and you subvert the expectations of these characters, and then you have such deep,
00:43:30
Speaker
continuity, it only makes sense to kind of open it up and just explore all the possibilities. So with that being said, I'm certainly there with you. I'm excited for the future. So we will wrap things up here. Unfortunately, Brian, due to technical difficulties, is not here to plug his stuff, but I'll just say, you know, check out source pages or Reading Collective. They've got a lot of great things going on. They're doing their
00:43:53
Speaker
coverage. While there's a little bit of a lull in the MCU, they've gone back to do their coverage of the Tom King run of visions that kind of ties into WandaVision there. And I know they're going to be doing stuff for both Loki and Captain America, or excuse me, Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It's kind of tough not to call him Captain America these days, if I'm not mistaken there. So. Does your hair anything you want to let the people know about as far as animation deliberation goes or yourself?
00:44:20
Speaker
We are not shy of any projects right now Once I get caught up we're gonna be doing a more deep dive into Star Wars visions. I Enjoy the first two episodes and I know Jason Scott has been biting his tongue trying to talk to me about it I'm gonna try to fast track that for him and you all as best as I can We also got a lot in the anime department trying to finish up
00:44:43
Speaker
Demon Slayer, My Hero Academia is doing pretty well right now, but the movie comes out in our traverse. So I'm really excited to watch that and share my thoughts with you all. And yeah, that's all you got at the top of my head. If you want to go back and listen to Sourcepage's What If episode and their primer of Uatu, then be sure to check those out as well.
00:45:04
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thanks everybody for listening. Check out all the things that we've got going on here at Animation Deliberation, as well as the Stranded Panda Network. Thank you for all the wonderful reviews that we got. I'm looking forward to being able to read some of those on air. And thanks for all the feedback we got on this episode. So thanks for tuning in. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. Stay well.
00:45:32
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash spchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well.
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Speaker
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