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Are Your Leads Killing Your Business – a conversation with author Mark Osbourne
17 Plays1 month ago
Mark Osbourne is the founder of Modern Revenue Strategies and author of the best-selling book Are Your Leads Killing Your Business.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds, Mark tells host Michael Millward, about his book Are Your Leads Killing Your Business.
Mark explains how businesses can create a lead pipeline full of potential customers who understand the value your business provides.
Mark explains how companies end up with lead pipe lines that are full of poor-quality leads and how this can be worse than having no leads at all.
They discuss the get-rich-quick solutions that only work for the provider, and how every business should focus on building a strategy and system that will create a high-quality lead pipeline.
This episode will equip you to build a high-quality lead pipeline.
More information about Mark Osbourne and Michael Millward is available at abeceder.
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster.
Introduction to The Independent Minds
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysseedah and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for every everyone.
Exploring Zencastr's Role in Podcasting
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysseedah. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:34
Speaker
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon.
00:00:47
Speaker
It really does make creating content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr is it Zencaster, forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:01:01
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I've told you how wonderful Zencaster is for creating podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:15
Speaker
Very importantly, in this episode of The Independent Minds, we will, as always, not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Meet Mark Osborne: Marketing Tech Innovator
00:01:26
Speaker
Today, my guest, Independent Mind, who I met on matchmaker.fm, is Mark Osborne.
00:01:33
Speaker
Mark is an ad-aged recognized marketing technology trailblazer. Mark lives in Los Angeles, California, which is somewhere I have been to and probably saw all the wrong places.
00:01:46
Speaker
If I was going to go back and do LA properly, I would book my travel with the Ultimate Travel Club. It is where I get trade prices on flights and hotels. You'll find a link and a membership discount code in the description.
00:02:01
Speaker
Now, let's get on with this podcast. Hello, Mark. Hi, Michael. It's nice to be here. It's nice to have you here. Thank you very much.
Mark's Career in B2B Marketing and Tech
00:02:09
Speaker
Please, could we start by you telling us a bit about you?
00:02:12
Speaker
Sure. Absolutely. Thank you so much for the warm introduction before and reading off ah a few of my accolades. the The short and long of it is I've been in the marketing and sales space for B2B products and services, primarily and in the marketing services space, ah for more than 20 years. And had the privilege of working with great brands like Microsoft, TransUnion, built and delivered analytics solutions for the likes of Nike, Hulu, General Motors, and a number of others.
00:02:42
Speaker
And i've really sort of built my career around a passion for using technology to make sense of data. One of the things that that led to was really sort of tracking down all of these latest, you know, the growth hacks that you mentioned before.
Evolution of Marketing Tech: From 150 to 11,000
00:03:00
Speaker
That's where people are trying to sort of, you know, game the algorithm of LinkedIn or Facebook or ah Google to sort of outsmart the platform to to get a lot of traffic for free or to you know find their customers really inexpensively.
00:03:16
Speaker
And that was a very successful approach for many years. In the early days of the MarTech conference that's hosted here in San Francisco, they used to put out a landscape of all the different marketing technology and marketing data companies that existed. I think the first year they put it out was 2014, and there about 150 different companies on there.
00:03:38
Speaker
ah different companies on there Now there's over 11,000. thou And so that rate of change and innovation has really made it impossible to try to keep up with the latest and greatest growth hack, the latest and greatest data or technology piece that you know all of them promise to be the silver bullet that's going to fix your marketing.
Scalable Systems vs. Growth Hacks
00:04:02
Speaker
As I got deeper and deeper into doing marketing with more and more world-class marketers, I realized that those that were really achieving the consistent growth weren't falling into this current trend, this trap of chasing growth hacks.
00:04:19
Speaker
And instead, they were building systems, systems that were scalable and repeatable, that would you know really deliver consistent growth ah year in, year out.
00:04:29
Speaker
And so that's what the book is about. ah But also what I do in my practice is I help companies to build those revenue systems and then to layer in the people, the processes, the technology that can make it run faster, run better, run 24 hours a day, run without human error.
00:04:49
Speaker
And that's where you know the latest innovations like generative AI or chat GPT or all the other things, they can really make a big difference. But it's about building the system first and then layering in the technology and data rather than just, you know, jumping onto a new tool and then hoping that's going to solve all your problems. Like something's going to be the panacea for all the problems and you'll end up a millionaire overnight type of thing. That's right. thing Yeah, brilliant.
Book Discussion: 'Are Your Leads Killing Your Business?'
00:05:18
Speaker
You've certainly got a lot of experience then. And like you say, you have published a book and not just published a book, but it's a number one bestselling book in various different charts, I suppose is one the ways to describe it. But it's a B2B marketing and sales book.
00:05:35
Speaker
And the title is, Are Your Leads Killing Your Business? I'm not a marketer. I'm an HR ah professional. But it's a strange title. are your leads killing your business?
00:05:46
Speaker
It's like, isn't that what we want as business people? don't We need leads in order for our business to grow. but don't want to kill the opportunities off, do we? You're you're not wrong.
00:05:59
Speaker
But something that has been really interesting and that I've seen is there's this obsession with more leads, more leads, more leads. um But unfortunately, this obsession with you know sort of quantity has caused there to be a significant dip in quality.
00:06:18
Speaker
And businesses don't have unlimited resources. And so they have to choose where to where to focus. And you've probably heard of the 80-20 rule that 80% of your revenues comes from just 20% of your customers.
00:06:35
Speaker
Unfortunately, the ah time, energy and effort that you apply across your customers isn't quite as focused. especially when it comes to identifying those leads that are likely ah to be the ones that will become those 20% of customers that will generate 80% of your revenues. So it's the, you have 100% of your leads, but actually 80% of your business is likely to come from 20% of those leads. That's right. It's like someone once said to me, like, you know, only 20% of my advertising ever works, but I just don't know which 20%.
00:07:11
Speaker
That's a Wanamaker phrase, right? George Wanamaker was the advertiser who said that back in the thirty s Yeah. Right. All right.
The Importance of Quality Leads
00:07:20
Speaker
Okay. I don't know which part of my advertising, which part of my marketing works, but what you're saying is that essentially it's not quantity that we need to worry about. It's quality that we need to worry about.
00:07:33
Speaker
A bit like as an ah HR professional, if I have you know somebody who's a junior person in the team would say, oh, we've got this huge number of applications for a role.
00:07:44
Speaker
My response would be, well, we did a very good ah job advert then. Because we we've not allowed candidates to qualify themselves out. And what you seem to be suggesting is that to get to the 20% faster, we need to make sure that our lead generation enables potential customers to say, I'm not a potential customer of that organization. That's right. People have used the term, you know, sort of to magnetically attract customers to you.
00:08:17
Speaker
um And it's important to remember that but magnets both attract and repel. and And I think that that's very true in that if you really know your unique value proposition and can communicate that to the market well,
00:08:32
Speaker
then some cut some potential customers will say, ah's that's not what I'm looking for. And then they won't sort of come into your ah marketing process or or sales process.
00:08:45
Speaker
And that's actually a good thing ah because you have finite resources. And so if you're not, putting all of your resources on the best opportunities, you're likely to lose them and lose them to a competitor that's doing a better job of attracting the best customers and then identifying that they are likely the best customers and then putting the appropriate resources against those opportunities to win, then close those opportunities.
00:09:15
Speaker
The bad leads are ah actually worse than no leads at all. And the reason is because they don't really believe in the value of your product, they're going to really negotiate heavily and and want discounted rates.
00:09:31
Speaker
And then again, because they don't really believe in your vision for how your solution delivers value, they're going to ask for you know customization and for you to make you know special things for them or Apply a lot of sort of handholding to walk them through using it.
00:09:49
Speaker
Well, that you know eats up even more of your resources and may even have you you know building a solution just for that customer, not really adapted to what the marketplace is looking for.
00:10:00
Speaker
And then ultimately, those customers churn out without ever really generating much profit or margin for you. And certainly without ever um serving as a referral or testimonial to bring in other additional customers.
00:10:14
Speaker
And so if you spend all of your time with those bad customers, starting with them being bad leads, they poison the well. And it really creates sort of a death spiral for companies versus the alternative, which is companies that can identify even early on at the lead stage, this is likely to be a really good customer for me.
00:10:37
Speaker
I want to put all of my resources against this opportunity to win it. And then when they win it, it not only is a customer that is willing to pay the The the price because they understand the value.
00:10:49
Speaker
They are aligned with your long term vision for building the product. And so they want to stay with you a long time. And they're happy to serve as a ah a testimonial or referral partner ah because they believe in what you're doing.
00:11:02
Speaker
If you think about those two things magnified dozens of times over the course of ah you know weeks or months, you can imagine a very different business scenario for those businesses that can in identify those best ah leads and then nurture them ah versus those businesses that can't. It's really interesting listening to you there.
Understanding Core Offerings for Targeted Marketing
00:11:22
Speaker
I'm thinking like, yeah, I can see that as a as a small business, medium sized business, even a large business, you need to understand who your potential customers are so that you can market more directly to them.
00:11:36
Speaker
So understand the situation that they're in, the problems that they face, the challenges they want to overcome, and give them the message which identifies that you are the organization that can help them do that.
00:11:51
Speaker
But I'm also thinking, like before you can do that, you've really got to understand your own business as well and really understand it right the way down to the very core of what it is that you do and what you don't do.
00:12:05
Speaker
And when look at some advertisements that I see in some marketing campaigns that I receive, think some things can be too to all-encompassing to be able to know who they're actually talking to.
00:12:19
Speaker
That's right. there's a There's an old phrase that strategy is what you choose not to do. And one of the things that we see is that the companies that are you trying to be everything to everyone or nothing to no one. and And the reason is because if you're you know trying to cast a really wide net, you're not resonating with the the people that you actually have the opportunity to to work with and serve.
Specialization and Expertise in Business
00:12:51
Speaker
ah People want to or they they gain you trust and credibility are the are the key you know drivers of relationship and and or commercial relationships, at least in the B2B space.
00:13:04
Speaker
And you gain that credibility and trust by demonstrating that you understand the unique problems of a particular marketplace or a particular ah sort of business dynamic.
00:13:15
Speaker
and And if you you can't be an expert in everything. and So if you're talking about a particular type of market dynamic, ah then people that are experiencing that will ah resonate with that and then call out. But if they hear you talking about other things,
00:13:32
Speaker
then they're not going to be as aligned ah with you and and and they won't feel that that trust. They won't give you that credibility that you deserve because it just sounds like you're saying whatever they want to hear. That's that's very true and it reminds me of my time as a volunteer um branch chair for the Chartered Institute of Personal and Development.
00:13:53
Speaker
and attending an event which we held for new new people who were starting out on a consultancy career for themselves after having a corporate career. They decided to have a consultancy career.
00:14:05
Speaker
So we held an event to explain all the do's and don'ts of that. We started off with asking people, what is it that you do? And the number of people that sort of said, I can do anything that the client needs me to do from an ah HR perspective. thank And my response was like, um that's not expertise.
00:14:25
Speaker
yeah If I'm right if i'm an if i am an employer who wants somebody who can do everything, I will employ someone full time. But for you as a consultant, what I'm looking for is you to come with an expertise which I haven't got.
00:14:42
Speaker
and you're going to give it to me a really good value and deliver things which I cannot do without your expertise. and And time and time again, i would see people promoting what they can do because these people had vast amounts of experience.
00:15:01
Speaker
So they would promote what it was they could do right But actually, the only thing that's important that you do is what the client needs you to do. Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, when I'm recruiting my team here at Abbasida, one of the rules was like, I want you to be able to talk to me all afternoon about something that you're really passionate about, you're really expert in, but you could talk to me about it all afternoon without me getting bored.
00:15:27
Speaker
Because you are so interested in it. You are so passionate
Passion and Expertise Attract the Right Leads
00:15:30
Speaker
about it. And whether you make widgets cakes or cars or whatever it is, the message you've got to get across from what you're saying in order to get the right number of leads is to be passionate, expert about what it is that you're talking about.
00:15:47
Speaker
But talk about it in the context of your ideal customer. That's right. It's that empathy of really understanding yourself the context that your customer is going through ah that allows you to really connect.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, and it is that connection. And I can see why if you can build that connection with the right type of contact points with them, the right type of content, you'll end it with a much stronger relationship, which is going to endure.
00:16:16
Speaker
But I can also see how people could get, well, the word that's coming to mind is suckered in by the latest hack. That's right. It's a terrible thing to say, but I think every single one of us is probably susceptible to, oh, this is going to be the the ideal remedy. This is the latest, greatest thing. That's right. I'll be an early adopter, that sort of thing.
00:16:37
Speaker
But so you can grow revenues without drowning in quantities of
Building Reliable Business Systems
00:16:43
Speaker
leads. But how do you avoid hack? how do you avoid Sure. Well, it it's a it's an easy siren song to to fall for because you know the promise is if you just do this one thing or if you just buy this one tool or this one data set, then all of your problems will be solved.
00:17:05
Speaker
And it sounds too good to be true because it is. And, you know, i have I have friends that I'll actually, you know, the the Super Bowl is going to be in Vegas here in a little bit. And I have friends that go to Vegas and you know they they've all got a They've all got a system or a plan on you know how they're going to beat the house, but you know the the house always wins.
00:17:26
Speaker
and And I think about that sometimes too when I think about some of these growth hacks that are, we've outsmarted Google or we've outsmarted Facebook or Instagram or whatever it might be.
00:17:39
Speaker
The house always wins. You're not going to outsmart Facebook for long. Maybe you can exploit you know some flaw for some temporary time period. But when they close that gap, when they solve that problem, what are you left with?
00:17:55
Speaker
Well, nothing. And it's you know if you think about... A career is, you know, you build something that is incremental and linear and everything that you build today ah builds on what you did yesterday and then tomorrow you can build on that, you know, even further and go higher.
00:18:13
Speaker
Whereas chasing growth hacks is like scratching off lottery tickets for a living. um Because if if you hit one, then been great, you you get a ah little boost, but you're most likely never going to get the one that that makes you never have to worry about it again. So you're going to have to scratch off another lottery ticket tomorrow, and most of them aren't winners.
00:18:36
Speaker
And so I look at businesses that have chased this hack or this magic bullet or ah whatever it is for you know months, years, and all they're left with is ah is a collection of, you know, the, the, the discarded plans that didn't work out ah versus businesses that said, yeah, I'm not going to have an overnight windfall because I, you know, figured out some trick that no one else had. Instead, I'm going to have consistent, steady growth.
00:19:07
Speaker
And over the course of those same, you know weeks, months, years, ah they have a ah thriving business. And it's it's a very different, very different mindset and very different outcomes.
00:19:20
Speaker
Yes. And think what you're saying is that it's that consistency which comes from understanding your business, what you do and what you don't do, understanding who in terms of people, if you're business to consumer or organization, if you're business to business, what your customer is actually looking for, living their life.
00:19:46
Speaker
um I've talked about having you a picture of your ideal customer and a list of the things that they like to do, they don't like to do, the problems that they're facing, the solutions they might have tried in the past, all sorts of things to get into the head of your potential customer.
00:20:04
Speaker
And then marketing to them in a consistent way, which focuses on demonstrating that you understand what it is that they're trying to deal with.
00:20:15
Speaker
And then I suppose once the marketing moves into sales and then into customer service and making sure that that relationship develops and is always positive, you've got to have the consistency. ah you know I'm moving my hands around in front of my face at the moment. sort going It's got to move the it's got to move logically and It's got to move logically in a way that the customer can see the logic of what is happening to the relationship that they have with you.
00:20:44
Speaker
And they're moving with you. That's right. yeahre They're not being pulled along. They're moving... with you because they're constantly getting messages which demonstrate that you understand their situation and you understand how you can help them remove the but the blocks, solve the problems, address the challenges to enable them to be successful as well.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yeah, you you raised up two really good points there ah that that I want to to to pick up on. The first was, you know you talked about in a B2B setting, you know understanding the business that's going to be your customer.
00:21:20
Speaker
We also find it's equally important to really understand the people that are making the decisions and to really understand that persona of the the business decision maker, because Businesses are run by people and it's people that are making those decisions and people are still emotional animals. And even in a business context where you know people think that they're making the most logical decision they can or the most dispassionate and um you know, logically driven, um emotion does come into it and they're feeling about about it.
00:21:55
Speaker
And, you know, by understanding that person and the experience that they're having and, you know, trying to solve these problems, you can really do a much better job of of connecting your solution to their problem.
00:22:08
Speaker
the The other thing that that you talked about, was this idea of you know a a consistent story, ah moving from marketing into sales and then into customer success.
00:22:21
Speaker
you know the There's an old saying in advertising that you know frequency sells. So if if I tell you the same message over and over, eventually you'll start to kind of believe it or at least be more open to it.
00:22:34
Speaker
um that That sort of frequency and... And so if you're a large company that can afford it, you could just buy ads and you know be in front of your customers all the time with a constant frequency and always beating that drumbeat.
00:22:50
Speaker
And then they're going to start to believe your your statements. But that's a really expensive way to do it. And we have seen a lot of companies ah be very successful by creating that consistency, not through just buying a lot of ads that tells the story over and over,
00:23:08
Speaker
but by really understanding where their customers you know live and are, and then finding sort of unique opportunities to be in front of that customer and tell that same
Building Customer Trust with Consistent Engagement
00:23:20
Speaker
story.
00:23:20
Speaker
And as long as they're bringing it consistently to the marketplace, even if they're doing it in sort of non-traditional and oftentimes less expensive ways ah than buying advertising,
00:23:32
Speaker
that consistency builds the trust and builds the credibility ah that their customers are looking for. ah You know, here in Southern California, we have hummingbirds and um I love my hummingbirds and I have a few feeders.
00:23:47
Speaker
um But I've noticed that, you know without consistently filling those feeders, they don't come around nearly as often. But if I'm consistently feeding them and making sure that it's always full and I have a, you know,
00:24:00
Speaker
A lovely ah collection of hummingbirds that comes by several several times a day. and And your customers are the same thing. have to consistently earn their trust and build that credibility.
00:24:12
Speaker
And there's a lot cheaper ways to do that than just spending money on advertising to pound that drum over and over. But instead finding sort of unique and authentic ways to reach the customers where they are.
00:24:25
Speaker
That's a ah really great metaphor about the hummingbirds and how you have to cope keep on constantly feeding them for in order for them to to return. um You must have a very colorful garden.
00:24:38
Speaker
Here in in Yorkshire, in the United Kingdom, I can see about 16 red kites, and the birds of prey, ah from this window.
00:24:50
Speaker
They circle around in the wind, um not quite as delicate as a hummingbird. But yeah, we have to make sure. oh They are birds of prey, so they will find things and they have the right type of location here. But it's ah it's a nice sort of metaphor to think about.
00:25:07
Speaker
If you want the beautiful hummingbirds in your garden, they will come if you provide some a reason for them to come. That's food. And it in the consistency.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't have to be expensive advertising. It can be all sorts of other things which are of value to that potential customer, which helps build the relationship with them.
Episode Wrap-up and Promotions
00:25:32
Speaker
Yeah, Mark, it has been really very interesting. I should remind people that, you know, we've been talking about your book, which is a bestseller already, but it's entitled, Are Your Leads Killing Your Business?
00:25:46
Speaker
We've given people a bit of an insight into how they can ensure ah long, successful life for their businesses. But, uh, for the moment today. Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge and experience with me.
00:25:59
Speaker
um As I'm sure you can tell, I'm fascinated by everything that you've told me. There's so much in there. But thank you for helping me create what has been a very interesting episode of The Independent Minds.
00:26:12
Speaker
Thank you, Michael. I really enjoyed the time. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Mark Osborne, an ad-aged recognized marketing technology trailblazer and author of the best-selling B2B marketing and sales book, Are Your Leads Killing Your Business?
00:26:37
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There is a link in the description. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Mark Osborne.
00:26:49
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Mark, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made.
00:27:02
Speaker
There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an author code in the description. so The description also includes a link to Mark's book as well. One of the best ways to stay healthy is to know the risks early.
00:27:17
Speaker
That is why we recommend that the health tests provided by York Test, especially the annual health test. The annual health test from York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers, including cholesterol, diabetes, various vitamin levels, organ functions.
00:27:34
Speaker
The list goes on. The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist, who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:27:51
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via your secure personal wellness hub account. As you'd expect, there's a link in the description together with a discount code.
00:28:07
Speaker
The description really is going to be well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like, download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. And to make sure that you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe.
00:28:22
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. All that remains for me to say is a big thank you to Mark and an even bigger thank you to you for listening.
00:28:36
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you and goodbye.