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Jurassic Park- Costume Designers Are Extinct
30 Plays3 months ago
Friends, you have no idea where this episode is headed. We didn't know when we picked this movie. This episode is nothing less than investigative journalism in the form of looking at the first page of google results. There's nothing more to say, just listen.
There might also be some background noises in this episode. Don't forget this is the season of forgiveness.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107290/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_1_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_jurass
https://variety.com/1997/film/news/tempermental-mates-1116675438/
https://www.gq.com.au/culture/entertainment/jurassic-park-style/image-gallery/fc9544457665ea22895323d9641e14f3
https://www.stanwinstonschool.com/blog/behind-scenes-jurassic-parks-raptors-kitchen-scene
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction to Hot Set Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Legendary Film Discussion: Jurassic Park
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome back to Hot Set. We are here today to talk about a legendary film that combines the modern era of human history with the paleontology.
00:00:33
Speaker
but the paleontology paleontological paleontology <unk>urs you a world dinosaurs have been brought back to life. An industrialist invites some experts to visit his theme park of cloned dinosaurs. And as you can imagine, after a power failure,
00:00:53
Speaker
Shit hits the fan. We are talking today about Jurassic Park 1993, the mother of dinosaur movies, aside from the tragic cartoon that we grew up with. We cannot talk about right now. ah is That's its own creature. But ah yeah, in this film we we follow some some scientists and some children as they run for their lives. For their lives. For their very lives.
Costume Design Challenges and Roles
00:01:26
Speaker
Which I wonder.
00:01:28
Speaker
if that's how the costumers felt on this project. That's a good question. Yeah. Because this is the first, I think this is the first movie that we've done where, I mean, we did some like early- Some like the early like thirties, forties, yeah. But this is the first one in this era of film history, post golden Hollywood, where there was no single costume designer.
00:01:54
Speaker
right I couldn't believe it when I found that out. And like there are multiple people, if you look, if you just Google costume designer for Jurassic Park, you get multiple names. And that's because there were multiple costume supervisors. And some of them probably had more the yeah responsibility more yeah than others. But it's pretty confusing. And the closest I could come up with to explaining what this was all about is a variety article from 1997 and this one was made in 1990 or probably in 1990 like started being made even like before 1992 but it came out in 1993 because of all the buper para special effects um but this was there's not even
00:02:43
Speaker
There's not even like an an author name. This is just this art with no creator is like the theme. It's crazy, but there there is like somebody who is interviewed for this article and that is Sue Moore. Sue Moore seems to get a lot of the the pointing. And so this article is about kind of like the scarcity of opportunity in Hollywood at the time, because there were specific designers who were getting all of the jobs. So it was like an accepted thing. And they were working so many, juggling so many projects that it was like,
00:03:28
Speaker
Understood that supervisors would just handle certain entire swaths of things like contemporary shows oh interesting Interesting and so there's a lot this article has a lot of interesting quotes about this happening at this time And so there was this kind of also understanding of like people looking at scripts. I'm just like kind of picking as yeah yeah yeah this article. But there was like an understanding where you would look at a script and go, why would you want to pay a designer for this? This doesn't need a designer.
00:04:02
Speaker
get a really good supervisor. This is so just interesting. And so it talks about all these positions about how like somebody says here, designers have turned into shoppers. And like contemporary film is misunderstood by the industry and the public. it it's like It seems like it's kind of a mess because they're even in this article talking about like the guilds and the different guilds and the different responsibilities. and like not just the guild, but the um union and stuff. And it yeah it's almost like things are just very melded
The Role of Costume Supervisors in Hollywood
00:04:37
Speaker
in. And there's a quote from supervisor Sue Moore, who handled Jurassic Park, and I'm reading directly from the article now, and the Lost World Jurassic Park without designers says, I'm in the unique position of having been able to work on a couple of major films without a costume designer. And this has created great resentment from designers that I have been given this opportunity.
00:04:58
Speaker
Moore also supervises films for costume designers. She worked with Ruth Carter on Amistad, yeah where the two initially had different approaches to the film but were able to work them out. okay And Carter came from the budgetary constraints of many non-union pictures, where she had to work as both supervisor and designer. Moore had overseen many large union pictures on her own.
00:05:22
Speaker
So this article is also about the clash between the design position and the supervisory position, which yeah I have both experienced personally, yeah which is that on the face of it, a supervisor is meant to be the person who's like hiring.
00:05:38
Speaker
and looking at budgets, like they are the practical fingers, like in the practical stuff. Yeah, they're the logistical person that makes sure that the the clothes arrive where they need to be, that people know what to do with them. Like a a general, where they're like point and and make this happen, yeah facilitating a lot of stuff and they're tracking things.
00:06:01
Speaker
And a designer is meant to be designing like they are. um Also, it's like there's there's like blurred lines, which is really interesting. But those lines also shouldn't be so blurred. But it's like the designer basically says, I want these fabrics, I want this, I want it to look like this. And they might work with an illustrator if they don't personally create the artwork.
00:06:23
Speaker
for the intended look, right? But they are coming up with the the visual language of the world that you're creating. And then the supervisor makes it happen. Yeah. like and And the designer is just like creating this one unified vision of the project that they're There needs to be someone who, at the end of the day, can just make a decision about what something's going to be. Like, you need that person. It's the reason why that position exists at all. I mean, it's it's wild to me that ah this movie, huge budget, huge Hollywood picture
00:07:12
Speaker
was like, we don't need one. Like i I couldn't, I like kept looking on the internet for the lost costume designer of Jurassic Park. And there just simply is not one. It's amazing. And this this article is just like my holy grail for explaining kind of like the friction that happens between designers and supervisors.
00:07:39
Speaker
And it's, I, it just, it says it so well. So I highly recommend looking up this variety article 1997 about customer supervisors and like even the title is like basically, you know, temperamental mates is what it's called. And it's it's like it's not it's not that this is how it's supposed to be, that there's supposed to be friction, it's that that friction can exist yeah because like costume designers aren't aren't meant to come into a space and just look pretty and go, oh, swaths of this and swaths of that. right It's a hard job that requires a lot. like When you think about a massive movie, let's use Ruth Carter as an example because we just brought up her name, Ruth Carter.
00:08:22
Speaker
Blackpink? I mean like insane, like beautiful insane amount of work. Amazing visual world. Wonderful. And there's so much that she did that was research. And also there are other people who occupy these spaces who like do a lot of research and then bring it, you know, like it's not a job for just one person. It's a team effort. yeah It's a collaborative effort to have this concept that you're going to look at the history of Africa, which is a continent.
00:08:57
Speaker
It sure is. Many countries. Many countries, many cultures to look at what exists, what has existed and to then project that onto a mythical place where mythically colonization had not happened and then to try to create this mythical world using things that exist and applying them in a way that does not exist, in a way that does not reduce cultures to a stereotype is a pretty crazy like lane to walk.
Character and Storytelling Through Costumes
00:09:33
Speaker
And it's one that is very challenging and very
00:09:36
Speaker
it it created really beautiful stuff. But that's just even the logistics of like, here's how many extras you have for this. Here's this culture, that culture. We have to denote who's at this level of a hierarchy, who's here, who's like just wearing street clothes, who's wearing traditional clothes. What do those things look like? How do they mesh? There's so many pieces of moving, basically moving plates that you're yeah spinning and spinning and spinning. And so that's, it's a tough job. And the supervisor is doing the same thing and without making those decisions necessarily um from the beginning of this is what this world should look like. In theory, they have not decided what the clothing pieces are.
00:10:25
Speaker
yeah Their job is to keep all of them organized and keep everything moving. and also to see who needs to be hired to make those things. And that is ah a melding of the design role and the supervisory role, because a designer can be like, I'm going to make this. I'm going to be working on this with my hands. This piece or this this character will be mine. I have worked with this person, so we should hire them, all this stuff. But the supervisor's the one who's looking at the budget and going like, OK, here's where we can plug that in and do this stuff.
00:10:57
Speaker
Yeah. or Like you can't have all of these things. Pick two out of the three or whatever. So like, I'm sure that there are supervisors who have designed for a fact and who want to design. Absolutely. But there are also supervisors who are like, my job is to be a supervisor. I did not take this job to be a designer because I did not you know, work this track to get to that destination. i'm This is where I would like to be. ah There are designers who've been supervisors and designers because, again, lines blend in crazy ways. Yeah, started projects, you know. But truly. We'll call you, yeah. Truly to have, and again, when they were making it, I'm sure it was a bit of a bet, right? Like, is this going to
00:11:43
Speaker
You know how how well is this going to do because like they they did so much with like animatronics and I mean just <unk> Yeah, there's so many other things happening in this movie than just clothing special effects is what i yeah like ah That's its own beast that many people have talked about but yeah then to just kind of Let's go. ahead i'm I'm putting this. We're both putting this on there. But to yeah, to be like, well, let's back burner the costumes is like, wow, because I feel like you're automatically putting a supervisor kind of into like an emergency position, even if they have a lot of time. Yeah, well, your're their knowledge yeah you're asking them to do something that is actually not their job. Yeah. And it's also like,
00:12:27
Speaker
when you are coming into something and i don't know because there are a couple articles about this and some of them refer to some more as the costume designer is's using but that's not what credits of the selling credit i watched them yeah.
00:12:43
Speaker
Once I discovered that there was no costume designer for this movie, I was on IMDB. I had already watched it. And I was like, well, surely this is wrong. Let me go fire the television back up. Let me skip forward to the credits and watch them. No, like, I feel like it is not listed. She is not credited in the credits of this movie as the costume designer. It simply is not her title, according to the end credits of Jurassic Park. There are a handful of supervisors. That's wild because yeah, when you go into a project and you're like, I'm the designer, you're going to be applying your design brain. Yeah, you're gonna be. Well, that's what I find so um frustrating about this concept that a contemporary
00:13:35
Speaker
movie wouldn't need a costume designer. That is just absolutely false. Because crazy and but there's no storytelling aspect happening through the clothing in the movie that it's just clothes that people wear. And and that mentality is so it's happening.
00:13:57
Speaker
false and insulting because it let's go straight into the movie. like We start like even from minute one, we've got these Bob the Builder dinosaur controllers i like in their suits and their bright shiny untouched helmets.
00:14:17
Speaker
That is such a choice. Such a choice. And like we have their boss who's not wearing those same things. He's dressed like he's going on safari. He's wearing like Steve Irwin. Yes. Oh, Steve Irwin to a T, RIP. And like these Bob the Builder faceless workers surrounding this guy.
00:14:40
Speaker
what What I'm seeing, what I'm understanding is that's the guy who takes the acclaim for being the dinosaur handler, right? But these guys are the worker bees or who are actually doing the work. Brand new to this work, yes their helmets.
00:14:57
Speaker
have never even been worn before. They are on scratch. Like that is a huge amount of storytelling in one frame of the movie. Because that's telling you that this place cares more about what people look like than their practical safety or that they're like not prepared for the job ahead of them. Because if you've seen a safety helmet or both, all of it, but if you've seen a safety helmet, they've been dinged. And even if they haven't been super dinged, they're dulled from exposure to the elements. The sun, like they got worn they got a little like a so like scuff because you like took it off at lunch and like threw it on the ground and it's got dirt. like They've got something going on. they've got
00:15:40
Speaker
Aging and things happening to them and so what i'm seeing the story that i'm receiving yeah is that maybe these guys. Aren't actually being trained or prepared to do things that would require that because there's so much faith in the electric fences. And the tools that they're being given the weapons essentially to keep these massive dinosaurs at bay. and So it's like our second shot is the lawyer on that raft in
00:16:11
Speaker
a perfect, crisp, expensive suit it on this, like, a makeshift, like, that image also is such a big storytelling image that this lawyer has come out to this island to do this, like, due diligence, whatever, occurre to no idea.
00:16:33
Speaker
in the elements. He's know literally like a New York lawyer who's just like, this is what I do. And it's more important for me to project my success than it is to be prepared to get dirty or messy because God, why would I be doing that? And then like we skip to the archeology team. They're all dusty. They're all beaten up and wearing, uh, inappropriate high shorts.
00:16:58
Speaker
with the pleats for Mad. Amazing. Denim on denim on denim. Oh, Laura Dern. Okay. The scene where she and Sam Neill are in the trailer with Richard, is it Richard Attenborough? Yeah. Because David Attenborough is the I know, I always get, I always confuse that. They're brothers, but like ah Richard is wearing all white, which if any but if any of my friends out there have ever made the risky choice to wear white pants, you know oh god what this is projecting. And I'm going to say it in a word, arrogance.
00:17:38
Speaker
100%. And it is so iconic that that got carried forward into the 2015, which we have referenced and multiple times on the show. Because the idea, the idea that you're going to exist in the world and wear white pants means you're not sitting anywhere unless you're putting something down first.
00:17:56
Speaker
You're not, I don't know, moving through a monthly bleed. Nothing is happening to you. You're not going to eat. You're not going to do anything but drink some water. Even if you drink some water, you're going to dab the hell out of that because you don't want to look like you peed yourself. like That's a choice. You're not sweating in that because sweat would be so obvious so fast. So embarrassing. Dirty because you hired the people to get dirty for you.
Recognition and Credit in Costume Design
00:18:20
Speaker
Exactly. It says so much.
00:18:22
Speaker
Fair, no expense. So them standing across from each other, denim on denim on denim. It says everything. All the white. Like it says so much. It says everything about these characters. And so I'm like. These supervisors, whether it was all. They killed it. They did a great job. They killed it. Because yeah, the archaeology team is like, of course Plaid is present. We've got chambray. We've got denim. We've got all. We've got neckerchiefs. We've got. Neckerchiefs for days. Let's talk about it. Neil is Dr. Grant with his like chambray shirt and like open neck with the... It's so perfect! But it's so, it goes even further because little Tim, so Richard Anber's characters have two grandchildren, right? Tim and
00:19:11
Speaker
Lexi. Lexi. So Tim is a mini Dr. Graham because he also has a little bandana with the same style shirt and he's just a little mini version. And it's like perfect little boy because Graham is in Grant is in khaki pants and like a long sleeve denim shirt and Timmy's in khaki shorts and a short sleeve blue shirt. like and It's the perfect little kid version. It's so perfect. And then Lexi is a little tiny Ellie like Laura Dern. because she also has like blondish hair that's like longer. But she, but okay, the trim on her little tank top do is purple and so is her cap. Like there are these little things that tie her together. The tank top that Ellie is wearing is purple. So they are connected visually the same way that Tim and Dr. Grant are.
00:20:07
Speaker
and So there is design happening here. yeah There's crazy amazing shirts and like, I think a members only jacket on Wayne Knight's character. Which like, I mean, could you even ask for anything better? Or out of control. Samuel L. Jackson with his gold rimmed like glasses, the Casio watches, like there's so much here.
00:20:29
Speaker
yeah it's in frickin jeff goldblum as um i mean like well like i these all art student and to have like the all-white john hammond being like everything's perfect i did everything perfectly everything's gonna be fine and then to have his counterpoint of like the the chaotician in all black, I'm like, you couldn't be more obviously making a visual statement about these two characters and what their worldview is. And so I'm like, how is this... How is there no costume designer on this movie? And how are how are we having the audacity to not credit these folks as designers because they absolutely are. That's the part that I think is why we're talking about it so much. Is it like even a slash designer supervisor? I guess it's because there's two different guilds or at least two different unions. And so I don't it
00:21:30
Speaker
Which I mean, i did this he into a union something that that also seems a little like a little fishy. Yes. It's purposefully done so that you don't have to pay a certain rate and so that you don't have to give the same protections. Like there's, there's, it's very consciously done. And I feel like justice for these supervisors who are being pushed into doing more potentially for less credit, for less, you know,
00:21:57
Speaker
like no prep time, compensation, yeah, all of these different things because already it's it's hard to work. And I'm not saying that it's not rewarding. I'm not saying that people don't love it because they do, but it's a hard job to do in film and TV because like there's a lot of taking advantage of folks that happens. And absolutely there's a lot of, I think like,
00:22:19
Speaker
blood brothers that happens too, because you're in the trenches together. And it's not saying that people can't have like really positive experiences. But there's a reason why the costumers uniform, I mean, uniform costumers was fighting for and people were pushing the union to fight for far more protections than they had originally. So I can only and that was in 2020 2021 2022. Yeah, that's recent. 30 years after this movie was made. 30 years. They were fighting to have lunch breaks for 30 minutes because productions were choosing and probably still are to pay the fines rather than let people eat. And like, I think that there was a push for having crews like costume crew beat be transported
00:23:08
Speaker
to location because that's not always something that happened. Costume crew would have to drive themselves, but because of their work hours expected, they were like first in, last out. yeah And then they were getting, like some people got into accidents driving off the road. Really fell asleep while driving. And I mean, like that's just being pushed into dangerous stuff in order to do your job. So it's like,
00:23:33
Speaker
What was it like in the early nineties that it it got so bad that there's, I mean, this isn't like, but that there's an article about, yeah, this is just what happens. Like, like, I guess the only thing that makes me glad is that this trend didn't really become a thing long-term, you know? don' I don't know.
00:23:57
Speaker
I don't I don't know enough to say that it hasn't fully because there are so many productions that do like little two steps to like I guess I think well I guess on the scale of production that this movie is because I always look for the costume designer's name when I'm watching a movie. That's just something that is interesting. like I want to know. so I always look. and and i oh I'm also like very interested in sort of like where people's names appear in opening and closing credits because I know that that's like contract negotiation territory. yeah and I just like find all of that kind of stuff interesting because
00:24:43
Speaker
There are so many little ways that this industry will try to screw you over that you think it's like ridiculous to have to stipulate that your name should be in the opening credits and the closing credits, but that stuff matters.
00:24:59
Speaker
for your opportunities going forward. so it like youly does You have to care about it, even if it seems frivolous or petty or whatever. like You have to care about it. Well, there was a time. We're coming from a time, and there are some of these films that we covered, where costume crews, nobody was listed at all.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah. This is not coming from like a place of ego. This is coming from a place of practicality because if you don't have your name on the credits, if you were a costumer or a person who was put into a position to be doing that work in early Hollywood and all that you have left of a production is the credits that were on film. Yeah. And you're not on there. The paperwork could get lost. It could yeah way yeah It could just like, because they were working on so many different productions at one time, like it would be understood at that time that yeah, your team was working on this stuff, but that gets lost. It's like a handshake. Like, unless there's a witness, did it happen? And so it's just like, this all came from somewhere. And so obviously changes have been made since Jurassic Park to potentially not have this stuff happen anymore. I'm curious if it still does. Yeah.
00:26:16
Speaker
And like what situations like that would, because like union stuff is pretty complicated. And like any union union you're in, there's a reason why there are union reps who know stuff. It's because they have the kind of brains that can retain all that information.
00:26:31
Speaker
and can look at a situation and attack it from different ways because they know the stuff so well. I'm not a union rep and there's a reason why. No, nor I. I've never been. I've just been a union member and not a costume union member. I'm not claiming that. I've been a workers union.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah, I've never I've never actually been a costume union person either. Yeah, it's because it's complicated to get there. Like, yeah oh, hey, talking to anybody. It's it's the same as when you talk about how did you get into costume or how did you get from here to here? And I'm yeah miming right now from like the upper or the middle. But it's like everybody has their own story. And some of those stories are pretty crazy because it's not like a corporate job where either you walk in at the bottom level and then you technically work your way up. and I mean you can, yeah but sometimes no. It doesn't have to happen that way. It doesn't have to happen that way. Sometimes you get a union credit because you just happened to be hired onto a union project.
00:27:32
Speaker
and you got one credit and that got you the card. Sometimes you've been working for like Disney and things like that for years. There was somebody I interviewed years ago when I was you know considering, do I want to move down South and try to work in film? And um they had been working on lots for Disney projects like shows that are consistent for years.
00:27:57
Speaker
no union card. wow Like it's really interesting how it just gets complicated really quick.
Complexity in Costume Crafting for Jurassic Park
00:28:06
Speaker
And so yeah, to see these supervisors doing this level of work, because let's let's also get back into the movie specific. This is a movie about dinosaurs. It sure is. It sure is. And these dinosaurs are trying to try to eat. They're trying to chomp, chomp, chomp it up. Everybody. So there's like a rainstorm that happens. There's people falling through mud. There's people like trying to survive. They're dry. They're wet.
00:28:34
Speaker
They're all different. They're in a tree there on an electric fence all over the place. So usually the the demand for that is that then people need to have different versions of the same outfit. Absolutely. Right. That was something I want to know about this movie. I'm like, I don't know how many different because like I was watching um Die Hard the other day because we're recording this in December.
00:28:58
Speaker
I read on IMTV that there were like 20 different versions of Bruce Willis's ah shirt from that movie to represent all the different levels of distress that it goes through and I was like Yes, that sounds correct. And it had to be the same on this movie. I mean, my example is always ah any of the Lord of the Rings, like, right just go for the first, the fellowship, right? Where there's a body double for Elijah Wood as Frodo, because we need the shots where Frodo is smaller.
00:29:35
Speaker
practically. So there's a little person actor who is performing that role and the same with the other hobbits. So each hobbit has their character prime. So those are the faces that we know. yeah And then there's this the smaller actor, the little actor who has their costume.
00:29:53
Speaker
not only the pristine one, but every layer of yeah every iteration of it, so does the actor prime. And then their action, their stunt double and has all the same things. And then I don't know if there's another as well. But that could be for something like that. There could also be stand in to have a costume. and So there could be three or four human bodies who are all different and like they might be close in some measurements but they're all different people who then have to have each layer of very specific um just decay or you know whatever happening to them and that's
00:30:37
Speaker
a bunch of costumes. And there is a little thing in the appendices of the the trilogy where they do talk about this because there were like over 19,000 costumes or something just for fellowship, I think. wow And um each each performer has so many versions of the same garment so that he can, as the viewer, be tricked into believing that like we're watching this person go through this stuff on a natural timeline from A to Z.
00:31:04
Speaker
And who's in charge of all those versions? The supervisor. So it's just like, what was this like? What was this experience like on the ground? And i'm I hope that there's something out there. Again, we are not an academic podcast. We let we research we did was we looked on Google. we looked i was full we looked Anyone could do it. We don't have special research skills that were utilized in this endeavor. No. And we did not exercise them if we did have them.
00:31:30
Speaker
nope So it's all very much theoretical, but it's, you know, again, to to bring up the conversation, what was it like to costume this movie? Because like, what was their budget to to do these costumes, which on the face of it, look pretty straightforward. But again, you have a lot of bodies that you're costuming and you do have a principal cast that is not just like two or three people. It's actually quite a few people who are going through hell, like,
00:31:56
Speaker
being thrown all over the place. And so how many pieces did they each have? Who was doing all that distressing? Like, just all right, because those those names are not in the credits of this movie either. They're working in the crew. There are like 100 people listed for the special effects of this movie. There are four people listed in the entire costume department of this movie. I cannot tell you, I scrolled up and down so many times on IMDb and I was like, what, what, what, what, what? What? And that's why I watched the credits again yeah on the movie to confirm, yeah, there are four people. I mean, even the makeup department has more people listed. Way more people. Art department, of course, has a ton of people, sound, special effects, but like, and
00:32:42
Speaker
all the All the dinosaur puppets are more people. It's like what was this crew like and how did it function? I would love to know because it's like if you're doing the supervising and the designing, even if it's like spread out amongst a ah couple of people, are you then also doing the distressing and the cataloging and the cleaning and all of these other things? Like whose hands touch these costumes?
00:33:10
Speaker
It's just there's so much. And this is this is annoying. I think you can tell from both of our voices because we talked about Metropolis, which was at the beginning of the century. Yeah. Nineteen twenty seven. Yeah. And there's like we have only a little bit more information.
00:33:30
Speaker
Like we have a handful of names, but we just like with Metropolis, we do not have all the names of all the people who were doing the work. And that is bonkers. like Like I was not expecting to be done this way. No, like my, like I didn't discover this until after I watched the movie. So I like my notes of the movie are just like about the design. And like, as I'm like, yeah you know, wrapping up and getting ready for this, I was like,
00:33:59
Speaker
Yeah, I actually don't know who the costume designer was on this movie and i'm I'm so excited to find out what other stuff they've designed that I've seen because you like we always find those connections, especially with these millennial 80s, 90s, 2000s movies. like It's people that are still working.
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah. And so, like, I, I pretty much lost my mind. Yeah, it was the same for me because I watched it took my notes and then went, Okay, let's look at the real people now. Because I i sometimes I forget, but I do. If I forget, I know you have it. We like to have the designer or designers IMDB open so that we can at least call out a few credits and also just like for ourselves be like, where else have we seen you? Oh my God. Hey, you built my understanding of the millennium. But like, yeah, this was nuts. And so it's like, I can't even talk about the plot of the movie because why?
00:34:57
Speaker
It's like if we're if we're here to talk about how the costumes, you know manifested in like the larger picture of the movie, it's sort of like, okay, so we're on a boat with no captain just sort of meandering through the water. It's like, it's impossible to know if the stuff that I thought was ah nicely curated and carefully chosen is just happenstance. I don't know. We have two days to go and rent a bunch of stuff. Let's do that. Or if it's like, did we have weeks or months to be able to sit and meet with each other and talk about what we think these people should look like and should we have an agreed? Because like to come up with even like uniforms,
00:35:42
Speaker
there has to be some sort of agreement on what those uniforms should look like. And we do have a basic kind of understanding of what people who are working with dinosaurs or archeologists, paleontologists, what they're wearing. And that is, there's a lot of khaki, there's a lot of, plaid and there's a lot of like button-up shirts and thing and tank tops and things that like... Yeah, it's all very sporty outdoorsy. It's all very sporty outdoorsy. So there has to be some sort of understanding of that. How long did they have to get those? like There's just so much information that you can assume of a different big budget project because you see all the names. You see that there's a shopper. You see that there's like this person or that person who's working in the shop and like doing this stuff. You see that there are all these key costumers or whatever.
00:36:26
Speaker
But there's none of that information. None of it. I mean, I know that some type of planning had to happen for the simple fact that some of the park employees are wearing hats with the Jurassic Park logo embroidered on and like jackets with the Jurassic Park logo embroidered on. So I'm like, okay,
00:36:51
Speaker
There is coordination between the art department and the costume department because we created the logo that we've decided this is the logo of Jurassic Park. We're using it on the big gate. We're using it on the but jeeps. We're using it in the gift store.
00:37:10
Speaker
and we're using it on the employee's clothing the way you would at any job. So like somebody made those somewhere, someone made them. And there's a second, well, I mean, there are a couple, like one of the other example that there was planning is that Dr. Grant and Tim are the adult and the baby version and that Ellie and Lexi are the adult and baby version. And also that their clothes fit to stop.
00:37:36
Speaker
That means that measurements had to be taken, things had to be purchased, things had to be taken in, you know, like things had to happen for these things. Like clothes don't just come from anywhere. And I think that at the heart of it is that we both feel very personally, whether you're talking about fast fashion, whether you're talking about costume design or cosplay or anything where textiles are involved,
00:38:01
Speaker
Anytime there's the illusion that this came from nowhere, we're furious because no, it did not come from nowhere. yeah this These things came through so many hands to get to where they are. And for Hollywood, on a big budget movie like this with names directing, who have been in industry at that point for a long time,
00:38:25
Speaker
for them to not like name a more prestigious director who can do it all. He can do any, he was, wasn't he editing Schindler's list while they were filming this movie? I know he worked on both of them simultaneously in one capacity or the other.
Steven Spielberg's Influence on Costume Recognition
00:38:48
Speaker
I can't remember which order it was in.
00:38:51
Speaker
This is, you know, a Hollywood golden boy, Steven Spielberg. He is internationally recognized as one of the best American directors of the 20th century. Massive budget films, like one after the other, one after the other, one after the other. And just, and it's not like that it's always down to like the director to, cause you know, you're not necessarily leading the director to say don't your name, yeah but it's like,
00:39:22
Speaker
To be shown a cut of your film that has the ah credits and you're like, hold up, where's an entire department? Yeah, because they feel like we had we we had that stuff, we we had actors, they had costumes on.
00:39:42
Speaker
there were two They were consistent. like The continuity was there throughout the filming of the movie. It's just like, what on earth? And so like I would love to say to Sue Moore and to the other costumer costume supervisors,
00:40:02
Speaker
which we also short I have to go all the way past all these other departments that have all these millions of names listed. when and I know, and I kept losing it because it's so tiny that you just like scroll past it by mistake. Let's just say these names. Mitchell Ray Kenny, Sue Moore, Kelly Porter, Eric H. Sandberg. Mitchell Ray Kenny was a set costumer as Mitch Kenny, Sue Moore, costume supervisor for the women.
00:40:27
Speaker
Kelly Porter, set costumer, Eric H. Sandberg, costume supervisor for the men. Let's give those names a shout out because- Yeah, thank you to every one of them. Thank you. Because you made your work is like when people are doing Halloween costumes- Yes. Of your work, it has become A recognized property has become part of the culture. The work you did on that thing is renowned. People know what it is. People can look at it as a shortcut and go, I know what movie that is. That's the work that you did. Thank you for that work. Really well done. I hope that you've been
00:41:09
Speaker
receiving residuals? I don't know how any of that works, but like I don't but i i hope hope that you were compensated very well for the work that you did, especially if, like, Sue Moore, you came back and worked on the sequel. right like And also, the fact that Jeff Goldblum but Let's just take a slight sort of here. The outfit that Jeff Goldblum wears in this has become meme-ified. I mean, oh my God. Come on now. If he was in a different costume, would that have happened? We don't know. When they, to dip back into the movie itself, when they dig him out of the wreck of that toilet or whatever. That little toilet hut.
00:41:52
Speaker
When they dig him, like just lift these whole pieces of dried palm off of him and he's just laying there kind of artfully with his shirt undone. Perfectly. Perfectly. It's like i I want to know what that conversation was.
00:42:10
Speaker
because that's hilarious. And that he then spends the rest of the most of the rest of the movie at least. With that shirt ripped. With that shirt ripped. And just like, whoof, it's just like, okay, so our art student goth.
00:42:26
Speaker
who's in all black with his like, you know, statement necklace and his like so sunglasses, tinted glasses. Like bad boy of the philosophy. The bad boy of the philosophy world. The fact that this man is like wearing a leather blazer and then like, it's just like ripped open costume, hilarious. It's so perfect. And it's perfect. And it tells us so much about this character.
00:42:54
Speaker
You did that. That was you. ah like There were meetings that happened to have that happen, to have the shirt open, to have it closed. like There were conversations that happened. And if there weren't conversations or meetings that happened, what was that environment and how did it happen? How yeah were you able to facilitate your jobs if it was only four of you?
00:43:16
Speaker
That's what I find so infuriating about like stuff like this is like when you receive a script and it just says you know Ian Malcolm enters the scene.
00:43:31
Speaker
who He could be in absolutely any clothing on planet earth that you could imagine. He could have been my least favorite shorthand for the quote unquote bad boy of anything, which is a backwards hat, a t-shirt, an open Hawaiian shirt,
00:43:54
Speaker
with like a wallet chain. Yep. And then whatever pants you want. He could have been totally buttoned up in like a sweater vest and a bow tie. He could have been in absolutely any clothing from anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere. and Anywhere. He could have been dressed up like a ghostbuster.
00:44:16
Speaker
Anything. Anything. I mean, it wouldn't have made sense. Everyone would have been like, what the fuck is that? Why is this happening? Every single item was specifically chosen by a person from the options of anything in the world. Yep. And then they were sourced.
00:44:39
Speaker
and potentially multiple copies were purchased and then like cheese grated and like stepped on and painted and torn and whatever the hell in order to tell a story. And I just, yeah, it's that kind of like the mind boggles the long and the short of the mind boggles that Jurassic Park would not say more.
00:45:03
Speaker
its and it's like it It makes my feelings about this movie so complicated because this is one of my favorite movies of all time. I think that it might be one of the most perfect action movies ever made.
00:45:21
Speaker
I love this movie. I don't know how many times I've seen it. I saw it when I was probably way too young. Oh yeah, and it was 93, so we were little babies. i know i I didn't see it in the theater, but my parents bought us the movie when it came out on VHS.
00:45:41
Speaker
i I must have been like seven the first time I saw it. The way that people know Jurassic World now throughout like the the Jurassic World cinematic universe of like now it's CG and there are still some there's still puppets I'm sure like there's still But like, I don't know what I mean. I don't know. After watching the debacle of friggin Bryce Alice Howard's like pumps running for her life, I was like, I can't take these seriously. I just cannot take these seriously. And so, but this was just like exploded.
00:46:14
Speaker
Into the movie into the world into pop culture because there's so much skill on display Like beyond the performers that we see the world through their eyes like there's just so much stuff on display and it took developing special effects to make this happen because they thought they'd be able to do it one way and it didn't work and then they had to like create new stuff in order to make it work like there's a It literally moved forward what is possible yes in making a movie. And what is like convincing and like the art moved forward to make it happen the same way that when you think of Star Wars, the art moved forward in order to make that happen.
Cultural Impact of Jurassic Park and Industry Struggles
00:46:56
Speaker
Right. And like,
00:46:58
Speaker
this just busted in and it was everywhere everywhere everywhere everywhere and like when it's the first time that something happens it's everywhere in a way that's different than when you've already grown up knowing about it because like Star Wars everywhere long before we were born yeah but like if we'd been around when it first premiered and like swept pop culture, that's different than already accepting that it's like a famous thing. And so like seeing this, it just like leaves a massive imprint. And we were like, you know, the millennials were like right in that because it was like everywhere. And so, yeah, it just.
00:47:37
Speaker
is very personal in front that this entire department just kind of gets pushed to the side, swept aside. And I was very, very shocked by that. And then immediately kind of gratified to see that there, cause like a couple of the movies we've watched recently, I've looked for an article on the costumes and all I can find is here's how to make a Halloween costume out of that. Like there's nothing about,
00:48:07
Speaker
like actual role the designer about the yeah the actual film being created. yeah And this, there's an article about, oh yeah, basically designers and supervisors are kind of being put in a position to be at each other's throats in the early 90s because of the way that things are structured.
00:48:33
Speaker
And it's like, wow, okay. So it was contentious at a point because like the demand for designers was so specific that they were just like pushing all of these other people into that position, which means that they were not being compensated appropriately for the work that they were doing. yeah And that is so stupid that it's still an issue today that even in our own professional spheres, you have to put your foot down at some point and say, this is the letter of my job. And that's like union language, right? Is that there's a letter of the job that you work towards. And like, there is a job description for a reason. It is so that people do not extract work that you are not being compensated for from you. Yeah, there's like, you know, it's like if I'm, if I'm in a theater,
00:49:32
Speaker
And I don't immediately have something to do. Someone doesn't walk up to me and go like, hey, would you mind hanging some lights real quick? Nobody would do that. That's not my job. Would you mind climbing up in the grid and just pulling guys and stuff? Yeah. Hey, you know how to paint because you've been painting fabric. Can you hop on the set? Can you hop on the set? Yeah. We're a little behind. You want to just grab a roller and start laying down some base coat?
00:49:57
Speaker
There's a reason why there are the delineations between things that there are. And unfortunately, in my experience in our little fishbowl, those lines get blurred or are like people encourage them to be blurred yeah because they like to use the language of like, but we're fans. No, we're not.
00:50:17
Speaker
No, we're not. This is a workplace. And each of us have been hired to do a specific thing. And it's like, we should care about each other as human beings and hope that we're all safe and being cared for and all of that. And like, however friendly you want to get with the people you work with is totally up to you. but like being taken advantage of because, well, it's cool. but No, it's not. no The letter of the job is this. If I'm working towards the letter of that job, why are you telling me that I'm overstepping? If you are overstepping the letter of your job and
00:50:53
Speaker
like the letter of your job is leaving it open, but mine is also apparently leaving it open because it says XYZ, then it's being blurred and it shouldn't be blurred. How do we fix that in order to have both jobs operate? And that is something. It's so coincidental how those things always tend to kind of flow one direction. I don't really know. It's so weird. I don't understand how it always ends up like that. Like it's just like,
00:51:20
Speaker
What a mystery. It's very strange. And so this is definitely an episode in which we are letting like a lot of like personal experiences. I don't know what you're talking about. Cause like there are some costume teams, right? That will work together. Like if you think about it, it's kind of like a costume house. Like you are a team that goes from job to job to job together. And like you might get hired, you know, by a production company, whatever that production company is, theater or otherwise. And like your supervisor or whoever is like running the team gets the the hiring situated. And then you all work together on that project because
00:52:05
Speaker
you know that you can work together. you have the national record You have a track record. You don't want to kill each other. You can work together and you can get the work done. Like people's skills can implement each other. Like, oh, like this person is really good at doing this particular thing. So like we'll have them do that. And like you go over here and you work on this part and you guys work really well together. So why don't the two of you do like all of that? Like that's normal work stuff that you just When you work with people, you've developed that understanding. like It's not different than any other industry, but people want to act like it's so, you know, and a mysterious. But it's like, no, yeah you worked well with somebody on a project to keep their number.
00:52:48
Speaker
You have a new project come along? You call that number. Hey, I have a project. Are you free and available? Do you want to work on this project? And so it's like, it's such a strange, and again, I haven't worked in film, so there's like so much that I don't know, but it is kind of crazy to see where just in costume, the same issues abound, regardless of whether it's on stage or in front of a camera.
00:53:13
Speaker
that there is still this blurring of the lines of like, well, hand wavy, hand wavy, it'll just work itself out. It's like, was that what it was like? Was that the expectation? It's just likem like shunned it to these people and they'll just make it happen. Maybe this movie was an amazing experience. Maybe yeah everyone had a great time and worked really well together. I would love for that to be the case. I would love for that to be the case and I would also love for that to be the case.
00:53:39
Speaker
if If it was kind of shunted to these people and they're like, we'll just figure it out. And then they did and like they enjoyed the process or like even though it was frustrating and a struggle, like they still made it happen and are proud of the work and they don't just feel taken advantage of because that's what I see is like being taken advantage of, that you are being pushed above and beyond the letter of your job because they're like, but you do costume.
00:54:05
Speaker
dot Right. and it And that dot dot dot is crazy to me. Like I and like, you know, personally, like I try really hard to stick into the role that I have on the project because sometimes I'm the designer, sometimes I'm not the designer. And if I'm not the designer, my job is not to tell the designer what to do. Like my job is to take my cue from that person and respect their role.
00:54:38
Speaker
in the decision making process. And if they ask me for my input, i'm I'm happy to give it, but with the understanding that they don't have an obligation to listen to anything I have to say about it. And there is like a weird line that exists even with that, which is that your designer could give you the craziest rendering and you're the person who's going to construct that. And you can look at it and say,
00:55:03
Speaker
how do you want this to be achieved? right I'm not sure based on this information that I've been given how to get there. And if the designer, cause here's the thing about designing, not all designers know how to construct.
00:55:19
Speaker
Absolutely. And when I say construct, I mean to build a costume. Build a costume. To actually sit down with some fabric. the design, if somebody's gone to school for that, that's not a massive part of the but educational process. The process is designing. It's storytelling, it's history, it's understanding like line in ah looking at a garment.
00:55:47
Speaker
but not necessarily sitting down and learning how that was made. The expectation is that you're not going to come out as like an accomplished sewist. It's that you're going to come out as an accomplished designer. And so like those are looked at from step one as two separate things. And then if you do blend those lines, it's looked at from the expectation of then you'll know how to tell someone how to make this thing that you've designed.
00:56:12
Speaker
right And so like it's it's a thing that happens where you know somebody gives you this really cool idea and you look at it and you go, how do you want me to do this? And then you have to talk it through. And that's when as the not designer, you genuinely From a place of collaboration, you are not blurring lines. You are asking questions because it's something that needs to happen in order to to make something happen. Unless your designer goes, I don't know, just make it. I trust you. I just make it happen. yeah Okay. But like it's usually here are the two options I can see to achieve what you've shown me and what you're looking for.
00:56:53
Speaker
yeah do either of these things sound okay. And maybe that designer will be like, make me a sample so that I can see the difference or draw for me or whatever. Like let's experiment, let's to see how we can get there. And that's where the collaboration kicks in is that you are, I don't know how to cook that with the ingredients you gave me.
Collaboration and Practicality in Costume Design
00:57:11
Speaker
That's such a good analogy. I love that analogy. Let's try to throw some things together. And sometimes it's, OK, well, the design has to change a little bit in order for reality to bear on this thing. Or they're like, oh, you said this character has to be able to do this. But like they won't be able to bend their arm yeah in this costume the way that you have yeah designed it. You gave me a sleeve that has no extra seams. It's just this thing, which restricts movement based on just That's just how it functions. What if we added an extra seam here and did this so that there's an extra range of motion? And then it's like the designer might be like, I don't care. Let's do that. That's great. Or the designer might be like, I don't want any visible seams. And then you have to figure out how to make those two things meet.
00:57:56
Speaker
Right. It's, there's, there's a lot of moving parts that happen. And again, it's not just all about ego. Unfortunately, ego does come into it. I mean, it's not the only department where that comes into play. So that's the thing that is just rampant everywhere, but it is this thing of like, yeah, you do have to work together. Collaboration is in the nature of things. And so.
00:58:22
Speaker
But then it just makes me wonder, like, to to go back to Jurassic Park, the movie that we were here to talk about, you know, like, one of the things that the designer does is communicate with the director about what the clothes are going to be, at least, at least for your principal characters, maybe, you know, not every extra in the background. But so then I'm like,
00:58:47
Speaker
who was having those conversations with Steven Spielberg in this movie, or were they not happening? I don't know. This is kind of a breakdown that I was given when I first started on my path into consuming, is that there's kind of like an umbrella structure, right? So there's a director who's at the very tippy top of the umbrella, because that is the person whose vision everybody else is willing to realize. That's yeah the idea behind design.
00:59:14
Speaker
And the person who takes the most blame if it all fails. Yeah. Thank you to Steven Spielberg. We're blaming you. We are blaming you for making a perfect movie. With some questionable practices about the cost of making that happen.
00:59:30
Speaker
So at the top is the director and they this is their vision that you are trying to realize. Underneath the director, and this is very oversimplified, is like assistant director who will facilitate communication sometimes, right? And again, this is coming from theater, but like you're coming from at least my experience in theater is that you have the director and they they'll probably be chatting in production meetings directly with the designers saying, this is what I want. But like also the assistant director might be taking notes from other meetings and then cross communicating between design teams so that there's like... And you got a stage manager in there too. yeah stage You have a stage manager. And so you have them and then like the stage manager I feel like is kind of on the same level as the designers because the stage manager is facilitating like
01:00:19
Speaker
all the crews and it's also kind of a little bit in communication a little bit about the designers because they're like the filter but between yeah the designer and the not the design the director and the design team but like the design team are all technically on the same plane where they are all working within their field to realize the director's vision. So they're all coming in with a collaborative spirit and like, not spirit, but like the goal of collaboration yeah ah to like bring what they have to the table to make this thing real. And then each designer has their own little umbrella.
01:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, their department and the people in their department. And then like, there's just like these little hierarchies, right? And the hierarchies exist. Again, unfortunately, ego gets put in there, but the hierarchies exist in order to facilitate things moving forward. There are like people in your department who have a specific function. So those people need to have somebody who's getting more information to tell them how to perform their function in order to get the train. moving down the tracks. And so it's just like a set of umbrellas that get smaller and smaller as you go down. Little like Russian dolls of umbrellas. And so it's just like, yeah, usually in a production meeting in theater,
01:01:44
Speaker
You would have the director, maybe assistant director or directors, the stage manager, maybe some assistant stage managers who are taking extra notes. yeah and Then you'd have the designers and you'd all be talking about your specific like set of plates that you're spinning.
01:02:00
Speaker
and how that can affect a difference. It shouldn't like, none of it is a surprise. Like, no, it's like everyone knows what's going on. Yeah, like the design process, you should have some front time, especially with something as big as Jurassic Park, you had, you have a lot of time because you have to have enough time to create the magic of the dinosaurs and like do all that stuff like and how you're gonna film it all of these things you have to have the time so it's not like a week that would be well it's ah months if not years yeah so it's like in that
01:02:36
Speaker
With, like, to go back to Ruth Carter and Black Panther, the designer for the costumes would be a part of that process very early on because there's a recognition that there are so many bodies that have to be a part of this yeah and tell stories. And within that, it's not just one costume per body. There's going to be multiples. And there is also, I feel like with Hollywood, there is that added layer on top of movie star and how that affects what the costume decisions are. I don't feel like it's very present in Jurassic Park necessarily because
01:03:18
Speaker
these are you know This isn't like you know Tom Cruise in this movie. like they These are amazing actors, but they're not like the most powerful people in Hollywood at the time that the movie is being made. But that is another layer that goes on top of the decision-making process because if you're a movie star, you have power in the room to be like, I hate this and I don't want to wear it. You have a veto power and the same is like,
01:03:47
Speaker
in stage or on stage. like You have you know different levels of theater. You have like educational, regional, community, I'm doing it all over the place, but you've got national, you've got Broadway, you've got different levels. And so when you reach different levels, even within your own level, you get a different stake in how much you can kind of control your own look, which is a whole thing. And so yeah, that totally feeds into it. Probably not the same with this one because it was, you know, uh, early nineties. So it was earlier in Sam Neill and Laura Dern's Hollywood careers. Yeah. I would say maybe Jeff Goldblum is more famous. Yeah. Which is probably why that shirt
01:04:36
Speaker
but i know you time you know but we understand we understand nothing we get it But it's just like, there's a lot of moving parts. And in order to make that stuff happen, you need the hands to make it happen. And we just keep cir circling back to it. But it's like, whose hands were on this? And if it was just these four people, how did they, what was that process? And how did it come about? Because like,
01:05:04
Speaker
ah yeah ya and so i could say but i cream I do to talk about the dinosaurs. stupid and I specifically want to talk about them because in this movie,
01:05:21
Speaker
the practical effects of having these puppeted dinosaurs makes them kind of costume adjacent because there are certain times where there is a person inside of a dinosaur suit performing as a dinosaur in the movie. Is that the raptors? Are the raptors? Yeah. I found this really cool article. So there's this ah puppet designer and maker Stan Winston.
01:05:57
Speaker
who worked on Jurassic Park. So famous. Yes, yes, he has his own school. But there's a really cool article on their website about the Velociraptors in Jurassic Park. And it has really cool behind the scenes pictures of like people in the raptor costume. So if anyone is like interested in like checking that out, like I recommend it because it's just kind of like fascinating to see that kind of like behind the camera, like whatever.
01:06:27
Speaker
Um, but one thing that I really enjoyed that he talked about in the article is
Puppetry and Dinosaur Design Innovations
01:06:32
Speaker
how a lot of puppet designers then become operators because they want to be able to control the performance of the puppet that they've designed and they don't necessarily want to put it in the hands of someone else.
01:06:55
Speaker
who might not operate it as skillfully and like with as much like nuance and like character as they envisioned when they were making it. So in that article in particular, it talks about how like the designers of the Velociraptors are the operators inside the costume because they wanted to bring the like character personality to those velociraptors that they felt when they were making them. And they're doing so much research. So they're doing like practical research into, cause like we were not alive when the dinosaurs were alive. you know why creationists we just weren't excuse me are you telling me that the flinstones is not real it's not a documentary i'm so sorry i've got some news for you i need to go i need to think to top that the earth is round i'm so sorry whoa whoa whoa round like like a big flat round plate is that when you're fine the way. There's a side-to-side for flat earthers. There's an experiment that I think might have already happened like as of today, but like we're in the time where some very loud flat earthers got like supported to go to like Antarctica, oh to go do a study, like the ultimate study of whether or not the earth is
01:08:30
Speaker
Okay, I'm just like Phil's been like giving me little notes about it as like, think they might they're down there and they might have performed that experiment like in the past couple of days. And they're like, huh? No, we're gonna have to think but you know what no that is so unnecessary because you can debunk the entire flat earth philosophy by asking someone to show you flight patterns and why like if the earth is flat with their fucked up map that they have and like then how come I can fly from here
01:09:05
Speaker
to Japan without having to fly over all of North America, Asia, Africa. like a documentary that I can't remember the name of that I watched with some friends that I think was made maybe by people who are not flat earthers, but it stars a lot of flat earthers who are very well known within that group. And they perform an experiment in the documentary to disprove the rounder theory.
01:09:33
Speaker
And they just proved that the world is around. And so it's more an exploration of how this is like a psychological thing. Anyways. Yeah, right. Which of course it is, of course it is. Of course it is. But like, okay, so back to the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs. We're not here with dinosaurs. They've been gone a long time. Even in the past few years, we've been discovering some of the information that was present for the design process of Jurassic Park is not accurate because there's been more research done and more discoveries have been made that more of these dinosaurs than we thought have feathers. I know. It is so funny to imagine
01:10:13
Speaker
the characters in Jurassic Park being chased by giant chickens. Yeah, just nuts. And so it's like, there's so much going into that, but it's like these designers of these puppets had to like study that, you know, they had to study the information that was available at the time. And you have to study then based on these creatures that do not exist anymore, we have their descendants,
01:10:39
Speaker
chickens being one of them. You can kind of pick up how you theorize they moved from the animals that exist now who have, you know, certain body parts are similar and you can make assumptions on how they move. So I could understand being like, there's so much back like back work that was done.
01:11:04
Speaker
for this, they to offload it onto a performer, you don't want to do that for your own level of work. But also, it's kind of unfair in a way to put that on the performer, because they haven't been studying this stuff for so long. And that's a lot for them to have to pick up from the point that they get hired and put into a suit, you know, when you know that you have made the the body so you know how the body works and how you can make it connect to the research you did. And I think that that's pretty damn cool. And that is so cool that's one of those examples of ah blurred lines, right? Because like you are a fabricator.
01:11:49
Speaker
You are not, and you're a puppeteer, you are not, you know, XYZ, or you're a fabricator, and now you're a puppeteer. Like, and those are things where you can justify it based on, you know, I did all this research and stuff, but you know, those people, are they getting the credit for that?
01:12:09
Speaker
ah They are on Stan Winston's blog. And so it's like there's there's a part of that that was recorded because it was like so important to the process that you are getting the credit for that work. And then you're able to get further work from that that thought yeah you because your participation and you're the things that you put into that are being recognized. And so it's just like, it's funny how that applies.
01:12:37
Speaker
in some places. Interesting. But not in others. And like, again, that's what that brings to question because like, I don't know what unions exist because was weren't weren't like video game designers, or something just trying. I think they're just trying to there. Yeah, I think they're not most are currently not union. So it, that's one of those things too, where it's like, when there's not necessarily a union that exists, because you're still creating your job, like,
01:13:07
Speaker
you can kind of move in and out of the fence post because there's no box yet. Yeah, like you would hope that they would be ah hired separately as like a puppeteer as opposed to like a fabricator or like you you would hope. I did not look in the credits for those particular things. Yeah and that's also to be fair not our field so we don't know the intricacies but it is one of those things where it's like it kind of it kind of harkens back to things that we hear.
01:13:42
Speaker
in our jobs, which is, well, you do whatever it takes. Right. And that's something that a lot of people are trying to reckon with now, because it's usually used to the detriment of people, yeah like putting their their health on the line. Don't sleep, because you do whatever it takes to get the job done.
Industry Challenges and Changes Since the 1990s
01:14:03
Speaker
Well, and it like it's it really, unfortunately, like it creates an environment where it's much easier to succeed if you are financially secure outside of that job if you have if you don't have any like health concerns that would prevent you or any kind of like other like health issues or like a mobility issue like it it favors people that can put their bodies through
01:14:38
Speaker
a lot of stress and a lot of overwork and a lot of exhaustion and it puts people in a position that have a more like secure situation in life for outside reasons that have nothing to do with their skill set to be able to continue to pursue this field and it's really fucked up and unfair and it shouldn't have to be that. There is no reason that it needs to be that way to save like the tiniest amount of money compared to how much money is spent overall on these films. Like the reason that this movie is going over budget is not because you actually like ended your day one day on time so people could go home and sleep. That is not the root of the problem. I hate it. I hate that. I don't like it. Don't like it. So
01:15:37
Speaker
in In summation, yeah it makes it sound like we hate our job. That's not true, just in case. That's like anywhere. Well, no, I'm just kidding.
01:15:49
Speaker
There are valid things to critique about structures and those things should be talked about because could you imagine if the way that these costumers, these costume supervisors were being pushed into this position, if that was the regular run of the mill now?
01:16:08
Speaker
right I'm assuming that some of this has changed because I don't see how it could continue viably you know for like 30 years. I think that there are people who probably were like, this isn't right. Like if I'm doing the job of a designer, I should be getting paid as a designer.
01:16:29
Speaker
And I should have the credit so that I can minorer next time I can say I designed this. yeah You can hire me to design the next thing. Yeah. So I'm very interested in what has changed or not changed since the early 90s when this was filmed, because that's just crazy to me. And there's a lot of things that still exist in costuming now that are Not great. Not super good. Yeah. um And feel like they should be further along now than they yeah really are. And the reason that we're so passionate about that is because you care. like
01:17:14
Speaker
If we, you know, hated our jobs and didn't care about it, we just wouldn't do it anymore. Yeah. Like we would just never make art again. And, you know, like it's the struggle is because you want to do the job. You just want to do the job in a way that you can be successful at it and be paid for the work that you have done.
01:17:42
Speaker
and be recognized for the work that you have done. Like if you didn't care, you just would go do something else and never make art again. And that unfortunately is a thing that happens a lot in our field. Yeah. Because like, I mean, I'm even in the position right now where it's like, do I want to continue? Being passionate about something and loving something should not forgive or allow for um exploitation. or Absolutely. Or other things, you know, that are that are not great. And unfortunately, there is like this expectation, because it is an art. And it's also, people put a lot of um misogyny on it. Like, real quick. They sure do. Because it's looked at as is sewing as is some other stuff as like a as like a feminine thing.
01:18:36
Speaker
which is just not true because there are so many people who work in this field, but that's still put on it, the misogyny is still put on it, that it's like a shortcut for people to just kind of push it aside. And that's, that's a lot to contend with. Um, that's a lot of frustration to have to fight through in order to just do your job. And it's not limited to this field, but you know, No, it's a part of it. It certainly is present in this field. It's very present. And so, yeah, this is not what I expected we would be talking about with Jurassic Park, but I am excited. Not even a little bit. Not even remotely. But you know what, that's what I love about doing this is because the conversation never
01:19:18
Speaker
is what I think that it's going to be. And I'm sure it's not what the people listening think it's going to be when they go, ooh, Jurassic Park, let me hit play on that one. Like, they're not ready. But like, what a fascinating thing to essentially like someone because I just didn't know that. Yeah. And it's like, this is something that both of us are you know, paying attention to when we're watching movies, because we care about the field, even if we don't work in film ourselves. Like, we we care about this kind of storytelling, this kind of art. So
01:19:56
Speaker
to for both of us to have been unaware of it also I think creates this sort of like mind-blown explosion that this became because it's like how could this possibly yeah be like this? It's such a formative movie for us and like our generation just like oh oh I never would have expected that feels like a move that would have happened earlier in yeah a director's career or like earlier in a production company's, you know, process. And so just like wild. um But yeah, thanks for following all of this. Thank you for listening to all of this. Bonfire. Oh my god. Just put an effigy on the flames. But but like this is this is, yeah, just a reminder for you as a listener. Keep your eyes out for stuff. And like I do want to say that that like when you're a cosplayer or when you're somebody who's like making costumes from home, you are us.
01:20:56
Speaker
Like it's the same stuff. It's the same stuff. And like when you are a cosplayer or anything like that, you're keeping also something alive, like in a different way that that's really interesting. And so it's like, there's a lot of research that goes into that too, where I'm sure that, you know, stuff that we talk about isn't a surprise because you're like looking into things like where did they get this or where did they source it?
Cultural Significance of Jurassic Park Characters
01:21:19
Speaker
And then you stumble upon right who was sourcing it.
01:21:22
Speaker
Who was the question mark? Yeah, like, because you're like, where can I get it? And then you're like, it's lost the history down a rabbit hole. Um, but yeah, what a, what a trip. So that was Jurassic Park. We did it.
01:21:37
Speaker
And you know who else did it? Jeff Goldblum, Jeff Goldblum really did it. Jeff Goldblum really did it. Samuel Jackson really did it. Shout out to Lexi for knowing how to do Unix programming. Shout out to BD Wong. BD Wong. Shout out to my absolute favorite character in this movie, which is the animated strand of dino DNA. Oh my God, I forgot about that.
01:22:06
Speaker
it played in front of my very eyes. but I just I can't get enough of the way he says dinosaurs like it's so perfect. It's just like a surprise in his mouth every time he says it.
Podcast Break Announcement
01:22:21
Speaker
So this episode is coming out on Christmas Eve for those who recognize that day. um And we should let everybody know that we are actually taking a Christmas break in our time. so there won't and to hibernation yeah um So there won't be an episode the following week. So it'll be two weeks until people get a new ah piping hot episode from us. So please join us in the new year, January 2025.
01:22:58
Speaker
we will be coming back with a double feature. We are going to watch The Secret Garden and A Little Princess. So get ready for some Victorian values coming in strong. Thank you for saying that because there are definitely some things on rewatch of those where you go, what I don't think I've seen these since I was a kid, so I have a lot to discover on every watch. Yeah, a little princess.
01:23:30
Speaker
There's a couple things in there, but I am really excited to see Dame Maggie Smith. herself. Wow. Wow. RIP to a legend. To the legend herself. And part of her career where they definitely tried to age her real hard. Same with Hook, right? Same with Hook. Putting her in that age makeup hardcore. She was just born to be a dame. It's gonna be a definite informative episode.
01:24:03
Speaker
because Yeah. And we are specifically watching the 90s version of Secret Garden, because I think yeah there are maybe a couple versions. There are a few, and I think there are a couple that are the 90s. So this one is the 1993 Secret Garden, which was directed by Agnieszka Holland, and stars Kate Maberly, Maggie Smith, Hayden Prowse, and a few other names, because there are definitely more than three people in this film.
01:24:32
Speaker
Third, and when it comes to A Little Princess, so this is the 1995 A Little Princess, which stars Liesl Matthews, Eleanor Braun, Liam Cunningham, and was directed by Alfonso Cuaron. So this is also, cinematically and costume wise, so the one you gotta watch.
01:24:54
Speaker
Yeah, so everyone, please do your homework. I will be doing mine. And by homework, I mean watching the movie, not researching the period. you said Yeah, no, we're just gonna be going into it and talking about memories and ah costume. Being a little British girl. Oh my god. And in a little princess. Isn't she American?
01:25:19
Speaker
I think she is, but in my mind she has like that mid-Atlantic accent that makes everyone sound British. It's like rich people. Accent always makes you sound kind of British. I need another. Papa. Papa. It's me, Papa. Oh no. Tears will be cried. I'm going to be in there. It's standing already.
01:25:42
Speaker
All right, we will see you in the new year. Have a wonderful winter hibernation yourselves. ah Happy new year. Bye. Bye.