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Ever After- This is France, This is French
21 Plays6 days ago
We kick off Season 2 with Ever After because this movie was massively formative for both of us. And I hope it has a special place in your heart too. If not, we invite you to check it out and embrace the magic. Don't we all want to live in a world where Leonardo da Vinci is our fairy godmother? Where the handsome prince is a bit of a himbo and you can help him discover the concept of Human Rights? The Brothers Grimm really screwed this story up in their book, fortunately Drew Barrymore is here to set the record straight. What's that phrase you always use? Ah yes...Once Upon A Time...
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120631/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_ever%2520after
http://everaftercostumes.com/index.shtml
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome back. We are on a new journey, Melinda and I. We are talking about movies that made millennials. So the two of us are talking about a whole generation as if we are authorities. Not really. We're just talking about us as we are millennials and what movies basically made our tastes and what we are excited about. And today we have a really, really good one.
00:00:45
Speaker
I this is the best movie to kick off this new arc journey project that we are on like I don't think there's a better movie to start with and I think that anyone who had like even the slightest like nerd tendencies in this era when this movie came out has like some deep-seated feelings about this particular movie. It's very funny. It is one of those names that you can drop into a bucket and people will be like, what did you say? You're talking about, okay, let's talk about it. And what's nice is that in this series that we'll be covering, this is a movie that both of us were impacted by pretty equally and in very similar ways. We will be definitely covering some movies from which we are coming from
00:01:37
Speaker
very different sides. And we just, Melinda just casually revealed that to me before we press record about one of the most precious movies of my childhood. I'm very excited for that episode as well because we're it's going to be calm. It's going to be delightful. It could be the last episode of this podcast depending on how it goes. In proverbial bloodshed.
00:02:02
Speaker
It's apparently a very divisive subject amongst like millennial people who grew up with that movie. We'll get to that one later. But this movie for this episode is Ever After, starring Drew Barrymore, Dougray Scott, and a bunch of other wonderful, wonderful actors. And you just had your hand over your heart.
00:02:24
Speaker
This is the only posture to take when talking about Ever After. You have to clutch your hands. Just keep that heart inside. For those who have not seen this movie, it is called Ever After A Cinderella Story. And I believe I could be totally wrong, but I feel like when it came out in in the theaters in 1998 that it was not advertised as Ever After A Cinderella Story. It was just Ever After.
00:02:54
Speaker
That's how I remember it. That's how I remember it. It could be a Mandela effect, whatever. But it's this like renaissance French Renaissance story and it's ah the the synopsis according to Wikipedia. The Brothers Grimm are invited to an audience with the dying Grand Dom who expresses her disappointment in their version of Cinderella. She produces a glass slipper and recounts Cinderella's true story.
00:03:22
Speaker
and begins, and this is me adding on to Wikipedia, she begins after basically doing this like like snarky interview of the Brothers Grimm from her bed, which is amazing. That is just a power position. Growned indeed. But ah she is just like, hmm, it's so funny that you think you know everything. And then she begins with, oh, how is it you started? Once upon a time, there lived a young girl who loved her father.
00:03:51
Speaker
Very much and that's how the movie friggin kicks off. I'm screaming kicking my feet and I'm so ready for like the wash of these costumes and in our last episode in our last main episode we talked about Mad Max Fury Road, which was designed by our Saint Jenny Phoebe. And we definitely went over how much who she did that for us. Like, she's shape she shaped our sensibilities, I think it's fair to say. and She was one of the people who shaped our sensibilities. Highly influential. Fairy godmother, one could say. oh And we will get to that.
00:04:30
Speaker
All right. In 1998, Melinda, who were you? Where were you? What was going on? Wow. Okay. Let's see. 1998, I was 11. I think I was finally, I wasn't like super into anything like costumey like I didn't really have any like some people are like oh I knew I would be a designer when I was like five I didn't have any of that but I loved clothes and I did love costumes I just like didn't really like understand how that was going to like form itself but I loved i like I loved stuff that was set in the past I loved dressing up I loved just like putting on a beautiful gown and
00:05:19
Speaker
anything sparkly. um But I also was just like a giant nerd who liked, you know, learning. and And I mean, I wouldn't say I liked going to school, but I wasn't mad that I was there at the same time. So I think I was becoming a giant nerd and hadn't quite like embraced it fully yet. So that's kind of where I was coming from. um What about you? What were you doing?
00:05:45
Speaker
1998, you of our Lord, where was I? Well, I would like to, I would like you, Melinda, and dear listener, to picture a massive amount of long, long, bushy, curly hair, freckles, pre-braced teeth I can only describe as jack-o'-lantern teeth, and manic attitude. So I, unlike you, did not like being at school. i Everywhere I went, I had a book. I was reading all the time. I was reading fantasy. I was absolutely a nerd and did not understand that I was a nerd. And at 11, that was my transition from a private Catholic school to a public school. And that was a very rocky transition because I'm sure I was a nerd in private school, but
00:06:37
Speaker
Our class sizes were so small and you were with all the same people, all the same teachers for years and years and years. So it was just like habit. And you had different social cues, all those different things. And then being just right into a public school was a culture shock. And I was super into Sailor Moon, super into Sailor Moon. Oh, God. Same. Okay, maybe we would have been friends. Yes.
00:07:03
Speaker
And I was like very, very, very passionate about um the Chronicles of Narnia and not for any of the religious undertones because I didn't see them. I didn't realize that they were there. It was just a high fantasy that I loved. And I was like the age of the kids. I loved the idea, even though I was terrified of it, of like being sucked into a fantasy world and having to survive and like fight for the rights of those those citizens. and um So I loved, I desperately loved the Renaissance fair at that time. Yes, i was going to i yeah I was going to ask you about the Renaissance fair. And like, listen, I have not been to a Ren fair since probably around this time. So it's very much like gilded in memory for me.
00:07:49
Speaker
But it felt like way back once upon a time, the Ren Faire that I remember, it was like there were trees, there were hillsides, there was green, and now it feels like everything is sunblasted and hot as hell. And like people were in costume.
00:08:09
Speaker
And it was really, really amazing. like It didn't feel like zipper costumes. It felt like costumes that people built and made. And um as I got older, I realized that people who are in the SCA, the Society of Creative and Acronism, those are the people who run the Renfares. So those are people like us who are costume designers or theater people or people who are just like have this like fascination with with costume and clothing. And some have a very specific knowledge of a very specific time.
00:08:36
Speaker
But it was like magical. And I remember that probably around the time I was 10, 11, I still had a floral crown that had dried, a dried floral crown with ribbons from when I was like six. And I used to wear that and I would hang it on my wall. It was like one of my most prized possessions. But I was given one of my mom's skirts from the 70s that had little bells at the drawstring. And I was given a blue tabbed bodice with like crepe bell sleeves. And so I wore that with my long, long hair at the Ren fair once and somebody stopped me to ask me for information. And I thought I was the bee's knees because I was like, I don't work here. I'm just here for fun.
00:09:27
Speaker
I just look so good that you can't tell. Amazing. And that's when I should have known that I was born, I was predestined to be a nerd because that is, that's like that glow that you get at a convention when you're wearing like something that you've built, right? And somebody stops you and it's like, oh my God, I know this thing that you love. And you're like, yes. Just like levitating off the ground with like the power. 100%. Thank you so much.
00:09:56
Speaker
And so I too did not know that I was gonna be into costumes at all. I thought that I wanted to be an actor. um And so I, cause I was also very dramatic, shocker. But um I was also like really obsessed with costumes. We had so many amazing like fantasy movies from the time that we were growing up. We had like historical,
00:10:18
Speaker
ah dramas, fictions, whatever that had just like so much costume. And then, yeah, we were like ah heading into matrix territory and new things that we're talking about the future. And so there was just like a lot, but I didn't understand that I cared about clothes because I could not dress myself. I still probably can't dress myself. I just wear what I want to wear. And I remember somebody referring to me in high school as, oh, hey, remember when you used to dress like a crazy grandma? That's how people remember me.
00:10:46
Speaker
ah because I used to shop on hate at vintage stores. And like my mom would buy some clothes, right? at Like raw stress for less or whatever. And so it was kind of a hodgepodge, but then I'd throw in like something camo or like a bowling shirt from 1975. Like it was just like secret stuff.
00:11:06
Speaker
but I think around this time, that I think there's this um era of my like fashion development as a child, I think this is the time when in my you know civilian non-dress-up time, I was really, really obsessed with the 1960s.
00:11:27
Speaker
and There was like that influence in clothing at this time because were we are on like a 30-year like fashion recycle, nostalgia cycle that we're still on right now. Yeah, and it's really painful. I just want to say that really close to the mic. It's really painful. It's hard because you just you're really constantly confronted with like the grim specter of death the when people that are 15 are dressing like you did.
00:11:57
Speaker
ah when you were 15 and you're just like constantly contending with your own like cultural irrelevance and just slow marching yourself towards a grave. But I was really, really obsessed with like the mod 60s.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah. So I had a lot of stuff in my wardrobe, I think, at that time that like in my head was like referencing the 1960s. I have no idea if it was anything. I i wish i knew i i wish I had like some of it still to know. Well, this was the era of pedal pushers coming back. And pedal pushers were like a big old thing. And those are capri pants for those who are looking for other terminology. Short pants.
00:12:42
Speaker
And it's like the three-quarter sleeve of pant. And that is just the most frustrating length for me. in either sleeve or pants. And I also, because we're the same generation. We were both 11 at this time. And I also was like heading towards a fascination with the sixties. And when I turned 12, I cut off all my hair. So it was above my shoulders. And I was like desperate for my mom to teach me how to use curlers to straighten my hair and style my hair. And my mom was born in the 40s, 46. So she was of an age to like really remember the 60s very clearly. And she was like, how dare you? don't do this. Do not spring this back. And she was a flight attendant in the 60s. So she was like, you stop it. And I was like, but it's so cool. And she was like, ew, barf. And that's what I'm like now. Every time I see a teenager wearing
00:13:45
Speaker
like flared jeans with bedazzled back pockets. I'm just like, please, like we suffered to deliver you from this. Did we not suffer enough? And like the low, low, low rises. That for me was like, this is a bridge too far. Listen, experiment as much as you want, but you have the internet now.
00:14:09
Speaker
You can look now and see our faux pas with our low rises. And I didn't wear the super low ones because I i had a baby head back. And like I did not need to have these teeny tiny lower. I needed to be able to bend over. I don't know who you think I am. And so those were, so those were no, they do not need to come back there.
00:14:35
Speaker
So unnecessary. Okay. And this is the world that bore that that ever after it was born into. Just to circle it all back. Just circle it all back.
00:14:47
Speaker
we had There was so much rib knit and like low rise jeans, denim on denim on denim. Like there was so much stuff that did not, unless you had siblings or like fashionable parents or you just have like an innate sense of style, you would just do what was advertised. You go to a store, you buy a sweater, you'd wear the sweater. And then if it didn't look good on you, you didn't know how to change that. Cause you're also 11 years old. And so like,
00:15:18
Speaker
I probably looked like like a mom of five you know because I didn't know how to wear anything. I just wore what was comfortable. and so Movies like this afforded you this like fantastical world where you could see all these beautiful, beautiful, and if if you've been listening to this podcast, you know that I go wild for layers and textures and things like that. like i I love those things. um And this is one of those movies that had those and it had rich jewel-toned colors and just like all of these things.
00:15:52
Speaker
and so If you were like our, I'm gonna speak for us, if you are our brown brand of yeah nerdy, this offered something to aim towards, which is like, oh my God, this is like magical. And how can I have this magic? How can I ah can i incorporate like cloaks?
00:16:11
Speaker
into my regular wear. You know, how can I incorporate one of these insane hats? Oh, one of these insane hats. Like how can I, this jewelry, these jewels, like how can I do this? How can I have feathers in my life? And so it's it was just like a dream. And I don't know if you remember the trailer.
00:16:31
Speaker
Did you, know did you review the trailer? Okay. So for this one, I reviewed the trailer because I do remember it because this, I entreat you listener to go watch the trailer, um, even pause right now and go watch it or watch it directly afterward, because it is such a perfect little time capsule of 1998. The first half of the trailer is the mummers dance by Lorena McKenna. And then the second half, the music for the trailer is this like electro kind of like pseudo underground dance pop kind of thing that's called Fable by Robert Miles. And um I think the only lyric that you can hear before the the trailer ends is tell me a fable. And it's this like woman vocalizing it. And it's like, ooh, and it's like right after seeing Danielle like stand with the wings before she walks down. It's just, come on. Okay. So this is, this is,
00:17:28
Speaker
The word iconic has been way overused, but for us, I think that this is one of those, this is stuck in the firmament of our of our growth, is this movie. Absolutely. So like for me, goddess, thank you. um i don't I don't believe that I saw this movie in the theater. um o So my experience of this movie is like inextricably tied to like sleepover culture and and video store culture of like going and renting this movie over and over and over again and watching it at friends houses and watching it with your friends that are staying over like at your house at their house whatever
00:18:16
Speaker
So in my like memories, this movie is being viewed on a TV at home. It's not like a theater movie for me. so Oh my God. You know what? If ever we want to get crazy, we can look around small theaters locally and see if we can rent one out and we could just see if we can play this because like how amazing would that be? like home you had I want to see if we can make this happen because like you it's It's a beautiful thing on screens. And now we have these bigger screens. Like I had a video DVD combo player and I had like a big, like my mom had a bigger TV in the living room, but I had a little one in my bedroom cause I had insomnia and I was scared of the dark. So I would just like play Louise all night. Um, yeah but it was maybe one foot by one foot, the screen. yeah Like it was tiny, 12 by 12. And it was itty bitty and like the ratio was crazy, like so many different things. yeah yeah But this this movie is like a fairy tale. this I mean, it is a fairy tale, but it it was like just watching it and accessing it was like a fairy tale because yeah, you did have to go to to Video Droid or to Blockbuster or Silver Screen or whatever your provider was.
00:19:31
Speaker
or the library. And like if you really wanted to watch it and they didn't have it at the library, you'd like have to really regulate. for each and like the calm yourself and prepare, like prepare for the disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. It was like an event to watch and to like really be in it. And I, I just, oh my God. Okay. So I do have some bits of information about this because I did do a little tiny bit of research self-pat on the back. Oh my God. You betrayed the concept of this podcast.
00:20:06
Speaker
I did not go as deep as I could have. But I do want to shout out this one website, um which is made by a fan. And I believe her name is Maggie, like all the way down at the bottom of the page. It says copyright Maggie. So shout out to Maggie. um But this website, which I highly suggest anybody who wants to, please go look at it. It's called everaftercostumes.com.
00:20:31
Speaker
Oh my God, Maggie, thank you. And I'm specifically looking at the page for the Just Breathe gown, which if you've seen the movie, you will know. And um so that is everaftercostumes.com slash breathe dot s HTML, or you could just, you know, search within the the engine. But right this person, I just really want to shout out because she actually reached out to one of the people who constructed some of these costumes. And this person specifically is Jane Law of Jane Law Costumes, who was commissioned to build the gown.
00:21:08
Speaker
at the end of the- This gown? The, yeah. The silver gown. The Danielle de Barbarac's mother's wedding dress. Yeah, the Cinderella gown. Oh my God. This woman built it. And there's a story on the site about how she they reached out to her, how they got her. She describes the fabric that she used to make it. She describes all the like fancy pieces. Yeah, she really went in. This is a great like set of details.
00:21:33
Speaker
And um she talks about how like the lower sleeve is mesh. Like she goes into oh detail ah so that you can replicate it because I believe the person who made the site replicated the ground the gown. And there's, I think I'm looking at like the wrong part of the website. But yeah, there's this great little interview where she talks about just like some of the her process and it it's just freaking phenomenal.
00:22:00
Speaker
um So from a different website, which was an auction website, which has all the information about this dress on auction, ah there's a ah chunk from Jenny Beavan talking about it. And um she named the the artist who made the wings, and that is Naomi Kritcher. And she is a metalwork and ceramics artist in the UK. So I just really wanted to make sure to shout out those people, Jane Law of Jane Law Costumes and Naomi Kritcher.
00:22:28
Speaker
So maybe we should talk about this totally out of order because that's also something that we tend to do and just talk about this dress for a second. um Yes. Like this, that dress, I mean, it lives rent free in my head 24 hours a day. It's always somewhere pinging around. And something that I really was looking at, particularly this time with that dress is how unique it is in this in the costume language of this movie for how Delicate and like gossamer it is and and I was because I was looking at a lot of the other costumes in this movie that I mean everything in the movie is beautiful, but there's so much more of the costumes in this movie have this nice like weight and
00:23:23
Speaker
drape and they're not heavy, but they have a much more solid presence and this particular dress is so light. They seem heavy, but they do seem heavy in the way that a lot of the fabrics in the movie remind me of linen stores in the 90s, namely Bed Bath and Beyond and Strouds. They remind me, and this is not to denigrate the fabric at all, but because of the embellishments on the fabric and the the weight of the fabric. It reminds me of like curtains at Bed Bath and Beyond. and Bed Bath and Beyond used to be able to walk through and they would have these like faux windows where they had like sets of curtains set up so you could see them. and I can just like picture so many of these like hanging there. like it's just there's there's a There is like a weight going on throughout the rest of the movie and this is like gossamer. It's just like,
00:24:13
Speaker
yeah And yet I'm sure it was heavy because, okay, I did find what I was looking for. um Part of the interview on this website everaftercostumes.com with Jane Law, she is remembering that um they made two identical dresses, one for distressing to be trashed during filming.
00:24:32
Speaker
And um there's like antique silver foil scalloped lace. There's like, there's so much, there's like embroidered silver gauze and like a satin backed crepe. And so this is all stuff that has that has weight. And she says specifically, we padded the hem to add weight to it and avoid a specific feeling, but to bring it to medieval, I guess to avoid it from being like looking like it was in the thirties maybe. Oh, interesting. Okay.
00:25:05
Speaker
um Yeah, it's just like, there's just so much going into this that all of this applique and stuff. I mean, she she describes that the trim and applique came from a box of preciousness in her work room. So it was like stuff that she had collected. And all of us who make costumes, we all, I think, I think I'm pretty comfortable to say that we're all at some degree a dragon with a horde.
00:25:30
Speaker
and not like cording, but like when we find something really, really precious, even if there's only like a few inches of it, if it's metalwork or something that you can't find that's like antique or whatever, you keep that and you either use it on a production or you give it to someone that you know is making something specific or you save it and save it and save it until you use it or pass it on to somebody else. Like it feels like this, this gown was made out of all of those things.
00:26:00
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yes. oh but and i like oh yeah i just I'll never get over this gown. like i'll never no I'll never be over. No. And the wings were apparently made out of piano wire and organza.
00:26:16
Speaker
And what's also funny is that at the bottom of this interview, Jane Law says, sadly, I can't remember the name of the prop maker Naomi, ah who made the wings. She says, I think her first name was Nicole. And what I like to imagine is she mixed up Nicole DeLong-Cray.
00:26:32
Speaker
Oh, yes, absolutely. One hundred percent. But that's a thing that it's made of organza because when we do see it like trashed and in the rain, it's like looks like it's melting yeah under the like rain, which obviously organza would not do. But you believe because it's so delicate and so fine and so like ethereal you believe that just like some rain coming out of the sky would like melt those wings that there's just something everything about this costume for like the makeup which by the way on that website they do a makeup tutorial but um the way that body glitter had me The way the glitter as a whole had made from the 80s to the 90s is out of control.
00:27:24
Speaker
oh yeah and yeah like We'd go to school dances with body glitter. It was unbelievable. I had different colors and different like yes different different jars of body glitter suspended in like gel to apply in this time frame.
00:27:42
Speaker
And like ever after really did it ever after, like with the long hair, the the the glitter, all of those combinations were just out of control. So it's going to be very hard for you to listen to this episode, I think, te to top to bottom without having watched the movie. So real quick, it is a Cinderella origin story. ah Drew Barrymore plays Danielle deBarberac.
00:28:06
Speaker
And she is the only child of a man who gets remarried to an evil stepmother with two daughters, yeah one who is not as evil as the other. And her name is Rodmilla de Ghent and her daughters are Marguerite and Jacqueline.
00:28:22
Speaker
they basically take over the house after Danielle's father dies and they kind of put her in the kitchens and make her work for them. And she's just a sweetheart the way that the character of Cinderella is meant to be, except I love that she is not forgiving of everything. And that was something that a more recent live action Cinderella really made me want to kind of scroll up in my mouth. Yeah, I didn't even see that one. I was like, There's such a bad message in that one. It's crazy. It's so bad. It's bad. That's a whole different conversation. But in this one- I think this movie is a great example of taking a character and giving her contemporary morals and values without it feeling ineffectual. You understand in this movie that she is stuck in her position. She doesn't have power.
00:29:17
Speaker
But she has like a much more contemporary point of view, which I mean, actually, you know, it's based on stuff, writing from the time. So, you know, whatever. yeah But um she has like a social justice frame of mind and that doesn't feel fake and trite the way I think more modern try interpretations of these fairy tales try to. Yes.
00:29:43
Speaker
update them. This one feels much more organic in how they do it. She feels like a dimensional person. She feels like a person. And she feels like because we saw her at the beginning of the movie as a little girl, loved by her father, and like their household is a happy household, the people who work there are happy. And it's not like a, oh, they're so happy under the boot of the man. No, they're just they're happy. it's It's a good post. They've raised this child. They've been treated well by their their employer, like all of these things.
00:30:14
Speaker
And then, so she was raised with love and she was raised with comfort and security, but then that's all stripped from her. So she has to work really, really hard, but with people who still love her, except for her set mother, her sisters who have varying relationships with her. So she just like, and her father wanted her to be educated because she was a part of the nobility, even if it was a minor part of the nobility. And so she constantly- Well, technically that's kind of,
00:30:44
Speaker
Like he's not, he doesn't have royal blood. Right. yeah But he is still but he like a wealthy something like that. But yeah, that's kind of like a sticky point in the movie because that's like the justification that Angelica Houston uses to like basically make her be a servant is like, oh, but you're not actually royal because you, you don't have any. right But there's a difference between nobility and royalty. You know what I mean? Royalty is like at the top top. And nobility is like a gentry, but he's landed gentry, which could mean that he just landed. I don't think he's gentry. I think he's just landed. Yeah. like He could be a little country lord, but we don't know, but he is wealthy and we're not quite sure why.
00:31:29
Speaker
he has money and he has money and so he can kind of break societal rules a little bit and he can like educate his daughter past the point that other daughters are being educated and he can let her run wild and free with her friends who are from different social statuses and so she's like experiencing other people and respecting other people and one of her most prized possessions is Utopia which is a book that her father left and is desecrated by her evil stepmother at one point. oh or marguite and um
00:32:01
Speaker
It's just like, we see the dress that we've been talking about, the just breathe gown. um We see it early folded up. yeah And maybe that's like one version of it. And then the other version is where I'm not sure how they distributed the two gowns. yeah But we see that it's been, it's been preciously cared for. And it's been sitting in a chest with its pair of shoes, ha which are like a pair of mules that are covered in gemstones. Made by Oh my God. Incredible. like They're just so beautiful. that they They feel like magic. And there is, um in this ah a chunk of of interview with Jenny Beavan that's on the auction site, which I don't remember, Kerry Taylor auctions,
00:32:48
Speaker
um Jenny even did say about like the whole idea of costuming. We made as much as we could in London, but still had to set up a studio in France with skilled seamstresses on site. I was given a free reign in terms of design. The costumes were loosely based on early 1500 silhouettes, but I wanted them to be magical rather than slavishly realistic with more of a fairy tale feel. And boy, howdy. Oh, and did she deliver?
00:33:16
Speaker
yeah She feels, it feels like a painting. The whole movie feels like a painting come to life. Like everybody feels like they have detail, everybody. Like in the background people feel like they have really thought out detail and it feels like you could pause anywhere in the movie and it's like a Renaissance painting. yeah There's a really lovely, tight color palette throughout the movie. like it has There's these beautiful like jewel tones, and then there's a lot of like beautiful natural and earth tones on like some of our you know more simple folks and you know the quote unquote gypsies is that we
00:33:57
Speaker
me in the movie, but there' there's like these beautiful little groups that have their beautiful little color palettes of like the people at court and their like beautiful jewel tones and then just everything is just so cohesive. Yeah, I think I can speak for both of us when I say that both of us are not um super interested in being slaves to historical accuracy when you're trying to tell a story that there's room to let go of certain things that are not necessarily helping you tell the story, especially you know something that I was looking at a lot watching that this time is is understanding that this movie is being made in the 1990s specifically. So there are beauty standards at that time that you have to acknowledge and be aware of
00:34:55
Speaker
Because there's definitely like things that would have happened that in the 1500s that we would look at now and be like, oh, that's horrible. Why would you wear that? That's terrible. And you can't really put that on Drew Barrymore. You just can't. No. Especially Drew Barrymore was the 90s. She really was. Oh my God. Yeah, you can't put some crazy headgear on Drew Barrymore and hide her hair. You can't put a cap on Drew Barrymore because you want to see Drew Barrymore. You don't want to hide her. Yeah.
00:35:25
Speaker
i I frequently, especially when it comes to period stuff, I get very nitpicky because I want it to feel like something, but I realized while watching this movie that it's not about being slavishly accurate. As Jenny Beavan said, it's about how much detail you're putting in. So like if we use the Renaissance fair as an example, I get like, oh, when people just like throw on like a ah party city costume. And if that's all you can access, bless, that's awesome. But my like inner kid is like, oh, but I wish that like,
00:35:59
Speaker
we could get everybody who wants to, like layers of things. So if it is a Party City costume, at least you've got layers of Party City going on. So whatever world you're coming from, you look like you're coming from that world, like you're making something cohesive and not like being able to have the ability to go 100% instead of like half-assing. And sometimes that's what historical things can feel like, especially when they're made modern and they're trying to pull in a modern audience.
00:36:29
Speaker
Sometimes they try to make things look more familiar to you. And in this sense, they made them look familiar like paintings that we know. And they made them look familiar by not hiding our actors the way that their bodies would be hidden in history. yeah And so like those choices were all so great and yet like still allow us to have this rich world. Even even though the poorer characters feel rich. And like part of that is is how they're being embodied by the actors. But it's also the fact that they just they have these layers and layers of clothes that look like they've been worn for a very long time.
00:37:08
Speaker
and like look like they're hardy and well made. And I just like, oh, I love it. And another way that I feel like um they're like like the costume Jenny and everyone that worked on the costumes is is honoring this time period is like the character's relationship to their clothing.
00:37:30
Speaker
And the fact that like I wrote it down in my notes that other than um then like you know Drew Barrymore puts on like sort of a disguise at one point and pretends to be like a noble woman when she's not really. But other than that, we don't have a significant full cast costume change until 52 minutes into this movie. We see the characters essentially wearing the exact same costumes for almost an entire hour of this movie. It's incredible. And it's not a movie that takes place in one day. So it's like that that honoring of how you would be with your clothing, even if you're a prince.
00:38:17
Speaker
Because, yeah, Prince Henry is wearing the same doublet for a very long time until he switches it with the, I'm not going to say the G word, the travelers, the leader of the traveler band. He switches doublets with him. So after they go out on their date and then get, like, abducted, harassed, abducted, and, like, the the ultimatum that, like, of so just threw the 90s into a fjord of, like, you can take whatever you can carry.
00:38:47
Speaker
Danielle's going, whatever I can carry. And then she hauls Prince Henry over her shoulder like a sack of potatoes. And even best is how it's filmed. We don't see her face while she's doing it. She just hauls him over and we're just watching his face as she picks them up and starts walking away. And like, that's how she wins the hearts. These travelers were like, okay, we'll give you a horse. Come on. This girl can hang. Oh boy. And then they just like party and play rock, paper, scissors and tell each other truth.
00:39:17
Speaker
I do like that she never gets her dress back. like They take yeah they they like to take her dress and they and she actually doesn't get it back because that wasn't part of the deal. so And I think too that she she's like, that makes sense because she is poor. like her Her agency has been stripped as much as it can be by her strip her stepmother. And so she doesn't have anything but what she like scrambles for or saves as much as she can. And so she understands the, the the expensiveness of these dresses. And did she steal that dress from Marguerite? Oh, she sure did. We saw that dress earlier. She especially doesn't care because she's like, no.
00:39:57
Speaker
Take it. You want more? I'll go get you back at least one more. I'll give you my address. Come by. so she is like So to talk about some details. So we brought up Prince Henry wearing this this like camel-colored tan doublet for most of the movie. And he's got like these light-colored britches throughout. He almost never laces up that first doublet. And that's how you know he's a bad boy. He is a bad boy. I know. i wrote What did I write? He has a rebellious quality to his costume. It's just like, it's like hanging loose, but like in a cool way. And he's got these like slash details, like up the wazoo. It's really, it's really great. And a perfect example, like who cares if it's like perfectly historically, I i don't care.
00:40:50
Speaker
it's Like that i you know that the slashed detail is yeah accurate. We know that. It is. But like walking around without it secured all the time. Yeah, no, definitely. No no way. You know, but like, no, we get who he is. He's not like your everyday prince. He's like a beloved prince. I have to say, though, like as it you know, like a an adolescent watching this movie, I don't think I ever like had a crush on him because he spends the whole movie just being so stupid and so
00:41:24
Speaker
like obtuse to the point where you're like, are you doing this on purpose? I think it was way for, um, what's the word? Uh, shallow. Thank you. I was like, do gray scotch. Okay. He's got that swoopy, swoopy hair. Swoopy, swoopy hair. He's a, he's a, he's a renegade royal. Okay. Yeah, sure. He's got those nice like over the knee boots. Oh, okay. And just like, just I mean, he's ridiculous and played perfectly by Degrรฉ Scott. And um I just like love that he's constantly getting himself into trouble because he's just like so petty and so like, oh, but mom, and like everything he does is so dumb.
00:42:13
Speaker
And like when he first meets Leonardo da Vinci, then she's like, it's my life, go save my painting. And so he's like, lot because he's about to get caught up by his own Royal guard. We're going to take him back to the castle. And he's like, but I just want to be free. And then he chases this like burglar.
00:42:31
Speaker
And they both slide off of a cliff and like, that was such a great, like the Cape with the leaves. And then he plonks into the water and pops up like a cork and it's a raining leaves. Like there are just so many beautiful, beautiful moments. And, um, and very early when he is basically being He's a major subject because he's of marriageable age and all the young women are like, ooh, we could be the next queen. And our queen really wants it. And Jacqueline is like, I don't know. I guess I'll try to. And like their mother's like, the prince, he's, he's outside. He's coming to stop by and he's coming to stop by because he stole a horse from Danielle in the morning and she beamed him with an apple to the head and was like, get off our horse. she's like going to kill him. And he's like, dang, I'm like, I'll give you money for jeez. He comes back to return the horse and to say sorry that he spooked their, their mate who basically cussed him out. And um somewhere around then, like,
00:43:43
Speaker
We have conversation, maybe it's when they're prepping for the ball, but um Rod Miller played by Angelica Houston snaps for Angelica Houston. A plus villain, A plus. um But she tells Marguerite that blue is Henry's favorite color. And Marguerite's like, ugh, all the girls are going to be wearing that. I have to be wearing something fit for a Queen. That's the first time that we see the Just Breathe dress, not worn on anybody. But for the first time on watching this movie, I realized for almost the entire movie, Drew Barrymore as Danielle slash Nicole Deloncroy.
00:44:18
Speaker
is in blue. She really is. That's so true. Almost the whole movie. And so it's like, it's just a little message throughout the whole movie. But as the Prince and Leonardo are talking about your match, like your soul's match, it's just the movie telling us she's right here, dummy.
00:44:36
Speaker
She's all dressed up in your fave. But I have to respect, Marguerite's tactic is a good tactic. I appreciate her her thought process in that moment because it's like, yes, everyone is going to be wearing blue. So to stand out, I actually have to wear the opposite of that. And she is absolutely correct about that if you want to stand out. you have And she does spend most of the movie in these kind of like her first dress is sort of an orangy red and then she's in a little bit more of a like a burgundy, plum, purpley red. She's in a very warm palette the entire time and Jacqueline, her sister, is in these like greens the whole time.
00:45:22
Speaker
And it's like her mother is trying to like pair their color palettes with their hair because Marguerite is blonde, like a honey blonde, and then Jacqueline is brunette. And so- I agree, it's a summer, Jacqueline's a winter. And so they both look absolutely stunning in every single costume that they have. They look beautiful, but it is very much like the stepsisters when you think in Disney, each one has their specific color palette. And it's the same, everything that they're wearing is in those, those realms.
00:45:52
Speaker
and Oh my god, i I do have one note that I was like, okay, this is kind of interesting. It was from IMDB and I can't say that I necessarily ah felt this when I was watching the movie, but um On the IMDb trivia, it says, throughout the film, Baroness Rodmillo wears headdresses that resemble halos. This represents both her god complex, as she has a delusional belief that she's always right, and the irony of her cruel demeanor. At the ball, she wears a headdress that resembles horns, which is more fitting to her real persona. And I can't say that I specifically thought halo when I was watching the movie,
00:46:35
Speaker
But I do feel like, personally, the thing that I picked up on in that similar vein is that giant gold cross necklace that she's constantly wearing. It's like the big- The false piety. Yes. She is such a perfect meme girl the whole time because she's just like, oh, nobody would have hit, which by the way, slight detour real quick. This is in France.
00:47:01
Speaker
This story is in France. This is a French story. This is a French story and everybody is just English. That is the thing about period movies. Any period movie, especially this era,
00:47:24
Speaker
where the characters would not be speaking English. They just make everyone be British, which I don't really know. It just sounds fancy to us. It's wild. And it's the same as it does, I think. Because I think somebody talked about that with the Lord of the Rings, with the elves. They were like, why are all the elves English? Why is that? And so I was like, that's true. That is ah empire. That's what? It's empire. Oh, yeah. Fascists are always British. Yeah.
00:47:54
Speaker
Oh my God, there's just like so much, like, yeah, Rod Millard again is just like, she's so, campy is not the right word because she's not like, you know, white face paint and like way over. right But she is like, there's something about her that equates to camp because she's just like, just such an a-hole. And like, yeah, I noticed all this watch, all of her headgear was incredible. And like in the very last scene, there's this amazing um hoodwink that's kind of like, they're bamboozled, she and Marguerite. Where Jacqueline is like,
00:48:29
Speaker
Oh, I don't know what's happening. But they've been invited to go to like the the throne room to be for a visitation with the king and the queen. And they're told to wear their their finest. And so Rav Mila is wearing this I don't know what took, I don't know the name of these head pieces because they're not French hoods. Like no, there are some, but they're not that. And so it's like, yeah, this massive puffy halo like that has like silver. yeah Yeah. It's a padded piece, like a band. I should have looked, I didn't look it up. No, I tried. And then I got real lazy. You're welcome. I'm a professional. Um,
00:49:15
Speaker
There's like this silver metal work, I think. yeah And so it's like really, really stunning. And it has this like pearl whiteness to it with like this silver threading all throughout and like white organza or like so you know silk organza or something like coming down from it. It is this like, she has these incredible head pieces and then yeah, that giant honking cross.
00:49:38
Speaker
Just like, she has this amazing necklace too that's like a DNA chain, like the twist. yeah oh It's like a beautiful piece. So everything everything she has, like her knight robe is like yeah fantastic. I'm not even gonna use like historically accurate terms for some of these pieces of clothing because why bother? I don't want to. So it's just like, she's We don't, we don't really need to. Yeah. And, um, I just, yeah, my note about hats and headpieces, it's just, ugh, the hats and headpieces all over. And then I followed that with sleeves, sleeves for everybody. The sleeves, the variety of sleeves is so good. Like, imagine a sleeve. It's here. They're all here. They're all here.
00:50:24
Speaker
every single construction, every under sleeve you could think of, like were all the poof sleeves. like there ah It's proto leg of mutton, like all over the place. It's yeah beautiful. Like there are so many little things all over the place like one of our villains, because obviously our main villain is Rodmilla De Gendt, but there's a secondary villain um who is... god named Oh, no.
00:50:56
Speaker
Pierre Le Pew. And it was so awesome. I don't know that this is true, but I'm going to claim that it is true. We were a generation that grew up with old cartoons, namely Lutetunes and Pepe Le Pew. And you're going to try to tell me.
00:51:14
Speaker
There's not a thread connecting those two. I think you lie. I think you're a liar. And that's OK. Maybe there's something deeper. Maybe there's not. I don't care. And it goes down all the way into the core of his character as a person that is connected to Pepe Le Pew. And he's wearing black and white. Yes. He's like medieval goth. And so it's like when he comes to the market where Danielle is working with Louise and And I'm forgetting her name right now, but the other, Paulette, when they're like selling at market, yeah. Paulette Louise, ah Pierre Le Pew comes with his posse and they're all wearing like the darkest clothing.
00:51:57
Speaker
yeah like they They have such a perfect goon, like lackey quality. And it was... A lackey squad for days. Absolutely. And I was like, I really looked at them for the first time on this watch. And I was like, I think one of the guys in the back is wearing like black studded leather. Like what are we even doing here? It's like so like the Warriors, like they should just come up snapping.
00:52:25
Speaker
It's just some amazing. And like, ok okay, okay. There's so many, like the whole movie I love, but there are like little, little scenes that I want to call out. So that's one. There's also this scene after, so Danielle and her friend whose name I'm forgetting, but her like best friend growing up.
00:52:45
Speaker
Gustav, they're in a field and she's flying a kite. The da Vinci has given her as a little gift because they keep running into each other and she has introduced herself to him and Prince Henry by her mother's name because she's like, I can't explain that I am broke and being abused by my stepmother and shouldn't be where I am doing what I am and saying what I am. so I'm Nicole Deloncray, but she's just flying this kite in her work wear that we see throughout the movie, which is this blue bodice, obviously other pieces, but I'm just going to call them blue bodice. And um there's a whole yeah your ans yeah she like goes to hide, and the prince is like, where's Leonardo da Vinci? And I was like, I don't know, why would I know? And he's like, oh, because the
00:53:29
Speaker
That kite, it belongs to him. oh oh ah No, it belongs to Nicole, who's by herself at ah her cousin's house, which is her house. And Nicole's behind the haystack going, shut up. And she has to do this flight like to get to her house and change before the prince, who is on horseback, can get there. And there is this little theme where she opens the door and she's like, hu she's perfectly dressed. She has this little beaded circlet around her hair. little She's like in the middle absolutely beautiful and ethereal and I have a guest about that dress that put a pin in that but when the camera goes behind into the hallway and Paulette and Louise are gasping for bread like which to me wait
00:54:14
Speaker
ah That's accurate footage of a quick change. That is especially, especially a quick change on maybe second dress where somebody gets out right on time, right but everybody backstage is not cool yet. They're not cool about it. but The actor had to, beautiful yeah, everything back there is a stunning, the actor, the moment they leave from the wings, they're booking it through backstage, hoping that their mic is off and their dressers are like,
00:54:45
Speaker
They're just pulling everything off. And then the actor runs, runs, runs, glides on stage. Hello. Hello. And that's so accurate. And then your dresses are back there just going like, all right, we got to check again. Do you have this? Okay, good. We've got to put all this stuff back everywhere.
00:55:06
Speaker
Like, that's literally what it is like to have a quick change, if you've never experienced one, until you get to a place where your track is, like, pretty solid. Yeah, then it's clockwork. Yeah, then it's clockwork. But at least for stress, it's like, where am I going? Where are you going? Where are we meeting? Unless you're, like, in a fancy theater where somebody is always going to be able to be in the same place, whatever. Oh, I would love to be there. Wouldn't that be incredible?
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. God, I just have so many little notes about how I feel about character decisions. Oh, I felt a deep and and lasting kinship with the group of laundry women at the end of the movie in the royal laundry. i I know that that's where I would be if I got transported to this place. the And the giant like open, the open vat of dye in the middle of the room just feels really... Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. It's like, we see historical
00:56:12
Speaker
ah versions of dye and all these things. And we've learned from a lot of it. And back then, especially way back then, these are natural dyes. These are not aniline dyes. Those come into play in late 1800s. Hundreds of years later. Yeah. Hundreds of years later. So these are natural dyes. Just because something is a natural dye does not meme. It is not bad for you. Correct.
00:56:33
Speaker
are also not good for you. So like these women with this massive vat, which the dye would have to be probably, I'm assuming, hot, right? Because you look tired yeah when you dye things, it is you have to have it boiling like to to be able to relax your your fibers and have like everything bond a certain way. There's only specific cold dyes that you can do, and those are usually don't usually don't last as long and will wash out. So there's like a ah a bond that happens like at the chemical. and Yeah, chemistry. Yeah, this is chemistry. So this is like a wizard's pot, you know, of like dyes. And those women are all let's real talk here real talk.
00:57:22
Speaker
probably going to die of cancer, like so many different carcinogens that they don't have a word for. I think they'll just call it like ill humor or something, but they are 100%. They're all breathing carcinogens. They're wandering utuses, took them out. And so why do all of our dyers keep dying? It's in the name. It's just like having to be under like down there with that heat. And probably I'm assuming no airflow. like oh it's not cute It's not cute and having like being a laundress your hands, cause you don't have work gloves. The only people at that time who would have gloves would be rich people who are like decorating their hands or maybe drivers of carriages, you know, people who work with horses to protect their hands, maybe certain farmers and falconers, you know, they're like, you'd have armor gloves, but you wouldn't just have gloves the way that we throw on gloves now to wash our dishes. That's not the kind of gloves that you would have.
00:58:22
Speaker
and so your hands would be eaten up like so destroyed and like oh my god the perfect cartoon like pulling your hands out of the diet is just like the skeleton but like these like there's no straight fingers whatsoever like it's just That would be a hard, hard, hard life is being a laundress. And so it's all cutesy and fun, but it's like, that is a doom, especially if it's for the rest of their lives. Yikes. Yeah. That's, that's brutal. That's a brutal wouldn't want to be. Yeah. Wouldn't want to be me. No, no, no, no, no. That's a hard life. And, um,
00:59:04
Speaker
You can only hope that as ladies who might have like embroidery skills that are very specific, that they could maybe get other work and like elevate them a little bit like within that community, um that they could do something else, which would still ruin their eyesight before they're very old. And then they would have to like retire to a house where other women had lost their eyesight because of doing the same thing. Because that's how we rocked it back then, you guys.
00:59:31
Speaker
If you lived long enough. Yeah, if you lived long enough, disease, all that stuff, whatever. So, ah yeah, this is very hodgepodge throughout the film, but there is a crimson gown. this ah Whatever. It's just, we're just enjoying it. There's a crimson gown that Danielle wears after she has been discovered by Rod Miller DeGendt as being Nicole Deloncray. And this is after, this Radmilla finds out during a luncheon with the Queen and Marguerite because Marguerite has been kind of like, Radmilla's been pushing her forward as a potential bride and she's been like lying to the Queen, like they stole a piece of her jewelry and she returned it and she's trying to be so sweet when really she's a monster and they're at lunch in the gardens and Radmilla puts two and two together that Nicole DeLongcray is Danielle going under her well
01:00:24
Speaker
ah dead mother's name and her dead mother's name. And she basically tells Marguerite, oh, and you call her Cinderella. And Marguerite stands up and she's basically wearing like a a little baby version of what the queen is wearing, which is kind of amazing. yeah I love that. yeah I love it so much because like way to count your chickens. or those eggs have had. Listen, I'm just saying dress for the job that you want, not the job that you have. I mean, I see it. I see it. But she gets up and she has this like massive meltdown that she, there was a bee.
01:01:00
Speaker
There's so many quotable, I know, screaming and having this meltdown. And I just like realized throughout this movie that I was like saying the lines along with the characters because I know the lines so well. yeah And this like leads to them coming home and basically revealing to Danielle like you're effed and we know and they beat her, they whip her. And like, and so she has these horrific, you know, wounds on her back yeah because yeah the lash, which is whipping the lash could be being, you know, whipped with a rope or with leather. Like either way, it's biting through your skin. And so she has these horrible wounds on her back. So she can't wear some of the gowns that she has been wearing. And so Paulette and Louise, I'm assuming, steal for her this red velvet gown.
01:01:56
Speaker
so that if she does bleed. Oh, you think that's why they did that? I think that that's a big reason why. Because if she wore any of that, she's been in light blues and like warmer blues the whole movie. If she wasn't anything else, you would see the wounds because like the neckline on this gown is this like very like rounded square cut that goes low on the bust and she's been hit on the back. So I'm assuming that where she, where her wounds are is like right under. And so she wouldn't be able to like hide it in it in anything else. And she's just wearing this beautiful, beautiful, deep, deep, deep prison. But like, there's a point where it's weak, right? Cause I mean, I didn't think about it that way at all. Presses his hand on her.
01:02:43
Speaker
and yeah And she does cry out. She cries out because she has and open wounds on her back. And so like it's this it's this beautiful beautiful gown where very often you associate like red with like passionate colors or with like treacherous colors or love. And yet with this one, I think there's also the Blood. It's a practical thing. She needs to say goodbye, but she has these gashes in her back and she can't be wearing these delicate light things that she's been wearing because she'll bleed through it and you'll see the bandaging maybe. That is terrifying. And so with this, she can at least disguise it. And I was like, that's really sad. I'm laughing, but that's really sad and horrible.
01:03:35
Speaker
And um oh, so it's me, so I'm hopping back and forth. um yeah yeah There was a dress that she was wearing when she did the quick change, when Henry asks her on a date. yeah And this is like two days before, you know or like a day and a half ago. It's this beautiful, beautiful dress. So apparently, the Just Breathe dress, and this is something that you can read on that Ever After website, ah there was a dress made for that just breathe, her mother's wedding dress. And it was a beautiful dress, but Drew Barrymore potentially, I'm acting as if this is 100% true, maybe it's not. sure But the story is that Drew Barrymore thought it wasn't quite as special as it could be.
01:04:24
Speaker
And that's why Jane Law was brought in to make something else. But that they used the dress that was originally made somewhere else in the movie. And I'm guessing it might be blue. I'm guessing it might be.
01:04:41
Speaker
because it's really beautiful. The first one, the first disguised dress that she wears is also I think one of my favorites. And it's um it's got this like kind of teal crushed velvet sleeves.
01:04:58
Speaker
And it's a little bit more like a yellowy sage kind of color palette. I could see that cut maybe maybe I had more to it and they like yeah stripped it down maybe like I see either of those but and that's i I would say if you're going to use your your power as a Hollywood royalty A-list star to get something redesigned for the movie, yeah this is probably the ideal outcome in this particular movie. and With this story, it said that like when it was flown in um for for the fitting after you know it was made,
01:05:39
Speaker
that Drew Barrymore like ran out of dinner and was like, I'm not waiting until tomorrow. I want to put it on now. Because she was so excited to see it. And so it it feels like not only have we been influenced by the costumes in these movies, but the actor, the actress was also enchanted by them and loved them and saw how important they were to to the telling of the story. um So I just I liked that little little detail that like they did have another plan, but it it wasn't quite where they they wanted it to be, so they spent the time to remake something and really make it astoundingly beautiful. Okay, so another thing. How do you feel about this ball scene at the end? I kind of always think of it as just this sort of like unit. There's so much um cohesion to the
01:06:36
Speaker
Chorus, if you want to call them that, the group um of people. And everyone's in these very like court color palette that we've seen the king and queen wear a lot. It's a lot of gold. It's a lot of red. and it's a lot of ah ah There's still like a decent amount of like black.
01:06:54
Speaker
I was always really obsessed with Jacqueline's like horse costume. I always thought it was so cute. I love it. So the idea is it got costumes for both Marguerite and Jacqueline and Marguerite is a peacock.
01:07:12
Speaker
And like, let's be real, her headpiece is a beautiful way to represent the head of a peacock, where it is like pointed. And you would it just it's like it it had to have been custom shaped. Oh, yeah, because it's like it's her face her or her forehead. And it's like a beautiful mask. OK, no, it is not. She holds up a mask on the stick. She does. But I'm like, OK, but i yeah.
01:07:39
Speaker
Jacqueline is dressed as a horse and the mane of the horse is like just a great, everything about it is this wonderful interpretation of how to make a horse mask. I just like love it so much. And she like lifts the horse head off every once in a while to make like a stinging little comment.
01:07:59
Speaker
i just i love jack And then she finds her little fellow horse man and they have the exact same hat and they're like flirting across the buffet. And he nays at her and eats the hell out of a carrot while appreciating her. It's so silly and cute. It's so silly.
01:08:17
Speaker
i do think i I've definitely like seen this said on various places on the internet, and I have no choice but to agree that like every character in the 90s that was supposed to be a female character that was you know like overweight is always a beautiful, thin actress that just happens to have like a round face. And it is or is a size six versus a size zero. Like yeah it is yeah insane. And like we talk about body dysmorphia. We talk like just not necessarily on this podcast, but like we talk about, and like you know, yeah, social effects of, of paparazzi and like popular like Kardashians, right? Like we talk in, in just regular stuff about the effects that people have on, um,
01:09:12
Speaker
Social expectations for what your body should look like etc and people kind of do forget that these things came from previous generations like it's not just in the Kardashians hands they got it from somebody in front of them and somebody else got it from somebody in front of them and And this was a massive thing. If your hair was frizzy, you were horrendous. The trope of having glasses, and that makes it a ugly girl. Oh, what a thin, absolute thin of having glasses. If you have freckles, and you're horrendous.
01:09:45
Speaker
Like, you know, if you have a heart-shaped face. Even if your hair was straight in the wrong way. Horrendous. Horrendous. And like if you had a heart-shaped face versus like a longer face. Disgusting. Or rounder nose versus another shape of nose. It's just like it goes so deep and so far. And this is a perfect example of that because no.
01:10:10
Speaker
I know, leave like stunning. And this actress has always been insane beautiful. week here And it's just like, come on now. And um so it's yeah, all that shaming. I do love that she gets her own back as a character and that she's yeah like, there's nothing wrong with me.
01:10:31
Speaker
there's nothing wrong with me. And I love that that's the message that she gets to impart is like, I'm smart. And ah who cares if I eat some food? I'm a human person. And like, I'm also beautiful. like What are you talking about? And she's she doesn't feel as vapid as Marguerite. It's not just about being beautiful. It's that she, she's a powerful person. And she recognizes that by the end of the movie. And, um, And she's not perfect because she's been no she spends the entire movie ah with the understanding that like if Danielle is not there, she is the lowest person on the totem pole because her mother clearly doesn't like her. And so it's like cla she's like hanging on to her position in this family. like And she understands that Danielle is being abused and like yeah when she's whipped or when she's lashed. like
01:11:22
Speaker
She says, you shouldn't have gone after Marguerite like that, but she shouldn't have said that about your mother. I love her, but she's not perfect. She's not perfect. They're all like, what? In their 20s? Maybe. Maybe. I mean, but like, come on.
01:11:44
Speaker
they she's She's stood by and like maybe been kinder to Danielle, but she has also thrived in this system that has just let this happen. So she kind of like comes into her own and kind of wakes up a little bit, I think, throughout the process of the movie to how bad it is. kind my nosees And thank God. yeah So i did I did kind of try to nail down when exactly this movie is supposed to take place.
01:12:10
Speaker
yeah which server Yeah, i like I knew that it doesn't really matter, but I was just kind of curious, like what kind because they do reference specific things in the movie, and some of the characters are you know real people. Obviously, this is a very fictionalized portrayal of them. but I have a few like dates if we want to get like that kind of nerdy with it just to to just to demonstrate because I do think it's interesting because obviously we know that like that Jenny Beavan did not feel beholden to this time period when she was designing it, but you do have to start somewhere. like yes
01:12:50
Speaker
When you're doing something like this, you have to know the period to know what stuff you want to include and what stuff you want to let go of. so you know you have to you have to note so Okay, so here' here's trying trying to nail down what ah period of time this could possibly take place in.
01:13:09
Speaker
okay So, Leonardo da Vinci, he is the fairy godmother of this movie. 100%, even so that he makes wings. Literally. He delivers her to the ball. The man who opened a door. So, and he's portrayed as an old man in this movie, okay? So, Leonardo da Vinci died in 1519. Okay. Okay. So, there's one thing.
01:13:35
Speaker
He mentions that he got invited to court because Michelangelo was busy painting the Sistine Chapel. The Sistine Chapel was painted between 1508 and 1512. Okay.
01:13:50
Speaker
ok Danielle receives a copy of the book Utopia from her father when she's eight years old, which is ten years before the main events of this movie take place. okay Utopia was published in 1516.
01:14:08
Speaker
u oh And we also have King Francis, Henry's dad. And he was the King of France from 1515 to 1547. And Prince Henry himself was like born in the 1530s, I think. So like, you know, it's It's very loosey goosey. I feel like you put all those dates in like a big stew pot and kind of stir them around a little bit. and Let them all percolate, let them marinate, let them all become yeah a big stew.
01:14:53
Speaker
There's this scene between Henry and Marguerite where he is eating chocolate and she's like, oh, I'd like some too. And just like sticks out her tongue and he's like look like, puts a little bit of chocolate on her mouth. She's like, have some dignity. Delicious. And he's like, oh yeah, the the monks from Spain, he says, like they send them over in bricks. At that time that this is like in this era, they wouldn't have been sending them over like that because it wasn't being made like that yet.
01:15:22
Speaker
So that's also a thing. and yeah much It's very much the idea of a French Renaissance, which is absolute spy respect. yeah yeah And for for people that maybe like are not history buffs, like to put it in perspective, this is so this is like the early 1500s, essentially. So we're still like 50 years away from Shakespeare. like He's not writing anything yet at this point, so that's where we are. we are like Obviously, it's in a different country. He's in England. We're in France. But still, but that's a Western touch point. pre-Shakespeare. yeah like If you know Henry VIII, the guy that murdered all of his wives, like that's what's going on in England at this point. You brought up Henry VIII, so we need to talk about it. Okay. Did you know
01:16:10
Speaker
Did there was an ever after musical? Uh, no, please tell me everything. Made in 2015 and kind of like launched again in 2019. Uh, I don't know about the future of it, but it did not last long. So I'm guessing that it was not perhaps what we would dream of seeing off stage. Okay. There was a Broadway, like maybe it was off Broadway. I don't, but like there was a show, a musical for ever after.
01:16:39
Speaker
And I'm going to tell you right now, if the credits song from this movie, which is by the band Texas, if that song was not the musical, burn it. I'm so sorry to all of those people who worked on that. But no, it's that the music in this is part of my childhood. I love that song so much. Put your arms around me by Texas.
01:17:09
Speaker
ah Someday when it's relevant, I'll tell you about the Lord of the Rings musical that I saw in London on stage. I'm so excited. Oh, Okay. Now, I'm very firmly in the camp that we do not need a musical of everything. And what what reminded me of this was that um Six, which is the musical about Henry the ex-wife, replaced. It replaced.
01:17:40
Speaker
ever after the musical in one theater. that's funny I was going to ask if I was like, I wonder if they did the ever after the musical in a similar like design style to six because I don't think that I don't think that I don't think so. I saw like a couple pictures and I was like,
01:17:57
Speaker
I would love to see more like all over the top. Like I love that right now there's a seven like a 60s, 70s medieval understanding of things coming back. Like people are discovering, rediscovering how the 60s and 70s saw medieval um clothing, i.e. Camelot on stage. And yeah I love that that's kind of making a comeback.
01:18:18
Speaker
in little ways and I want more of it because I'm like, yes, let's just do it. All the sleeves, all the big things, let's do it everywhere. I love it. ah More is more. More is more. um Oh my God. I just, I love this stinking movie. And there's, um yeah so we've talked about some of Danielle's costumes and one of them is her like work a day, like every day costume where she has like a chemise and then a bodice and skirt over and it's blue.
01:18:46
Speaker
And um when she, spoiler alert, like the rest of the podcast, ah rescues herself from Pierre Lapieux's grips because she's been sold to him. um And Prince Henry runs away from his wedding because it clicks, I can't do this. And he's like, I'm going to go see Danielle. And they're like, she was sold. And he's like, pardon me? And he's like, I'm a human being. And they're like, yes, she told me that's bad.
01:19:16
Speaker
Because he's like, I told you that shouldn't be happening. Three days ago. And so he rides off to go save her from Pierre Lapieux. And she has saved herself. And she is dirty and tired and probably begging for a bath and a clean bed that has not this sexual predator in it. You see her back in that costume clearly for I think the first time in the entire movie and when you see that bodice throughout the movie it just kind of looks like a blue linen that's like yeah solid and that's just the lighting because from this back angle and from the front again because we're close up and they have the light on it and and specifically you can see that it's actually it's like
01:20:02
Speaker
like a card or demand card. Yes. And it has like this beautiful pattern woven in. And so it's not like something for super wealthy people, but it's probably something that was made from a dress that her stepmother or stepsisters wore through when they were younger. And then she got the the beaten up part and then you need something new because something woven like that would be expensive it's an expensive process it's way more complicated than a simple cloth which is just ah one just across one yeah yeah
01:20:38
Speaker
And so this is very complicated. So it would be expensive. And like, I love that she has that because it's such a cool little detail. Like just from looking at it and going, that's pretty and it's not a flat surface. So it does have texture, which makes everything feel rich, which is the thing about the design of this movie. But it's also, you can look at it and put story onto it and you can look at it and go, this is,
01:21:04
Speaker
the dynamic that she has with her family who do not treat her as family is that they throw her, which you would do at the time with anybody who is that you would remake your clothing and you would wear it and wear it until it was unwearable and then it would become rags or stuffing for like pillows or blankets or mattresses. And this is just nice to see little potential nods to that happening. Yeah. And like I just, I had never really noticed that it had a texture like that. And then I was like, no. ray here Yes. And I noticed it at did it that exact same moment. yeah You don't really, and I don't know if that's just like the way it was filmed up until that point in the movie. Like I'm not totally sure
01:21:49
Speaker
why but it isn't until you see her back in that scene that I noticed that pattern. Yeah. I feel like it's really lighting because there are quite a few scenes where we see her back but we don't see necessarily her full back in that and like the color looks a little bit a little bit greener sometimes and so I do think that it's it's the lighting like altering it and you know angles but it was just like Look at you. And maybe they had a different bodice. You know, maybe they had one that they were like, let's just wear this one for this scene because like, for whatever reason, but I don't care. I love putting this story on top of it. And so.
01:22:26
Speaker
Now we're at the end of the movie-ish, like we've kind of bumbled through a lot of things. There's an aborted royal wedding, which was casually mentioned. Linear and thorough job explaining this movie from beginning to end. What are you talking about? I think when I was watching it and I was taking notes, I was like, there's just no way that with the nature of our podcast that I'm going to hit everything that I want to talk about. So I'm not even going to try. No, I do. There's always stuff that I don't know. Because there's just too many things.
01:22:54
Speaker
um There are merit like amazing like little character beats with costumes. like One that I'll give for an example is at the the wedding that Prince Henry runs away from ah with the very dramatic Spanish bride, which I feel for her. I love her. He releases her. I love her.
01:23:14
Speaker
And like he releases her, she has this really great veil that's like gold studded or like, you know, gold printed. And she runs, she's like the only Spanish person in the the court members that is not wearing black. She's wearing like red and white and gold. And she runs to her lover.
01:23:36
Speaker
crazy hair and he's like a middle-aged man. Just kissing him all over the face. Like I just like love these little beads. So at the end of the movie, ah we mentioned that Rod Miller gets called in to see the King and the Queen and it's and but It's a trap. It's a trap. And ah every single line in that scene is incredible. Marguerite throws her mother under the bus in a heartbeat. But I love so much that they primed those two characters to wear what they believe is their finest of everything that they have. And so they come expecting the prince who has, ah who's thrown over the Spanish princess to propose
01:24:19
Speaker
to Marguerite, which is just delusion of its finest. She is about to ascend. ahend And Jacqueline has even dressed nicely, maybe not as far as her mother and sister, but she's like going along with it because she does know what's about to happen. She participates in the trickery. She participates. And you've got to love it for her. And um the king and the queen are just like, so why'd you lie to the queen? And Rod Mill is like, oh.
01:24:46
Speaker
ah o like They're like, oh well, we won't send you away if um anybody speaks for you. And so that leaves the stage open for Danielle to materialize behind them on the red carpet of the throne room and say, I will speak for them. And for the second time in the movie, she's wearing deep reds and like crimson and she has the gold of a crown and she's just She's got jewelry like for the first time like real like a necklace with like all these on accessories and adornments and like she is basically it's like she she earned her way and like she's just beautiful and stunning and then the end of the movie is her and um Henry at an unveiling with like Gustav and Jacqueline and um
01:25:41
Speaker
her little horse husband, yeah and Leonardo, and he's unveiling his new piece of art, which is an, it's like a conte cramp, like drawing of Danielle. And that is what we saw at the beginning of the movie with the grand dame in her bed, um pointing at the painting and saying, that was my grade grade great, great, great grandmother. And this was her show. Right. Which I was kind of trying to do that math in my head. And I was like, I don't know if that... Whatever. It's fine. Yeah. I was like, that feels like a really large expanse. Because like, what? Yeah.
01:26:25
Speaker
era would you say the beginning of this movie was in? So I think I falsely remembered it as being the 1700s because there's a carriage and because the servants are all in livery, which is based on 1700s. But I think it's supposed to be the 1800s. I think it's also the 1700s based on the German Grimm brothers.
01:26:52
Speaker
Okay, I forgot to look up when they were alive. I forgot to look up the Brothers Grimm. I don't know anything about them. Taking it into the internet right now. There's like a horrible movie from the 2000s with Matt Damon in it maybe.
01:27:10
Speaker
just a wheeze of a laugh for that because that's so true. And I saw that monster sight in the theaters. I didn't see it. Oh, so funny. Okay, so I'm totally wrong. The Brothers Grimm were born in 1785, 1786. So ok okay. Okay. So yeah is it's like Regency era. Yeah. Yeah.
01:27:34
Speaker
and like they died 1859 and 1863. So like, yeah, this is, this is a great, great grandmother.
01:27:46
Speaker
I don't really, like I'm not gonna do the math, but I just feel like- Why not? This is a mathematics podcast. I just feel like, especially at the time, like, you know, like people are having kids every like 20 years, you know, people are, are marrying, you know, young and having kids pretty, you know, I don't know. I don't want, I don't care. There's a lot of hand waving. There's a lot of magical hand waving. There's a lot of doing and that's fine. And if we cut this, that's fine. But I just I feel like this movie played into magic without there being like a real
01:28:28
Speaker
Nothing about this is real, but like a more real magic than, you know, what like the Lord of the Rings or something with magical powers would feed into. This was like the magic of circumstance and coincidence and the magic of having character that makes you stand out above anybody else, even and like makes you potentially become like a golden era ruler because you have a conscience, like whatever all those things are and like the rom-com of it all. But like,
01:28:59
Speaker
Just this little story is just like told visually in such a beautiful way. Like it's just this beautiful oil painting that you get to kind of like ride along with and then have this like 90s stinger of Texas. Put your arms around me again.
01:29:15
Speaker
and just like i but it yeah really just like I think for so many of us, it just kind of like turned on part of our imagination yes and was so special in that way because we didn't you know we didn't have like the entirety of the internet that people have now to find you know these little niche interests like if it wasn't in the video store or your local library or something that you learned about like in school or your cousin who was visiting told you about like you just didn't learn about things unless you like encountered them yourself in yeah the world somewhere.
01:30:03
Speaker
and it was just such a special little movie that I feel like it's not necessarily like a huge part of the cultural conversation right now about like 90s nostalgia, but I think for people it's it still like it's fill in there. they just it doesn't It's not the same as like friends or something. No, but it's like there was this 90s thing where there was like Popular patterns on notebooks and things like that that were moons and stars. There was an interest in like mystical stuff and to think of Ren fairs and like even 4th of July fairs like at our Civic Center There used to be merchants who would make wire wrapped Wands with like precious gemstones and ribbons and
01:30:50
Speaker
There was just this this sensibility of like wanting, like this is what magic looks like, was like curved wire in silver with some stones. And a little body glitter. body glitter, a little catching the light in like magical little ways. And I think that one of the one of the things about this movie that like sticks in my memory the the sensibility of it all is when Danielle, it's been revealed that she is Danielle, not Nicole. And the prince was like so set on dragging her through this masked ball to his parents to introduce her to them. But she's like, I have to tell you something, I have to tell you something. And this is after Leonardo has like rescued her. She's in her just breathe gown and she's like this beautiful, beautiful magical fairy princess. And Rudmilla tears her wing
01:31:45
Speaker
It's before the rain falls. It's when she when she runs down the the red carpet. It's right when Leonardo sees her and she falls, and the shoe falls off, and she's pushing herself up again. That screenshot of just like her starting to sob, the rain hasn't still hasn't come down yet, because it doesn't come down, I think, until Leonardo puts the shoe down on the wall. Yeah, that's right. um So there's a couple minutes away, but like she is just traumatized.
01:32:14
Speaker
and um heartbroken and her costume is just like, she looks like a star that has like fallen. And it's just so beautiful. Like, yeah. Thank you, Jenny. ve Thank you all of the people who were hired on this movie to to do all this work. For a movie from the 90s on film, you can see so much detail. You can see so many extras costumes. like You can see so much. There was so much that went into it. And it it's just a beautiful, fun piece of art.
01:32:51
Speaker
And we love it. And that's why it's on the on them like movies that made millennials list. It's the middle of the Venn diagram, because it it was that for for us, and hopefully for you too, if you're listening to this. um I hope that this movie has a special place in your heart too, because it's living in our heads forever. And if it doesn't, I hope that it worms its way in there. Because yes there's just so much beautiful stuff. Please watch. Let us know what your favorite costumes are, what your favorite moments are.
01:33:20
Speaker
The first time that you saw this, um, we are going to keep talking about movies that made millennials. We are likely talks about an intro to the beginning of the episode. It could get contentious because the format is going to change a little bit. We might on some episodes have a movie in agreement that we're both going to talk about like this.
01:33:39
Speaker
or we might each come in with our own, compare and contrast, or we might do the opposite side, which is both come in with the same movie, but talk about how differently we feel about it. And that's gonna be heated. It's gonna be heated.
01:33:56
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us as we we bob and weave our way through Ever After. We're going to continue on the Millennium nostalgia train. And next week we're actually going to do something totally new that we haven't done before, um which is a double feature. We're going to talk about two movies that are important to us in different ways. and But we've decided to go with the same director for both movies. So we're going to be looking at Baz Luhrmann's Moulin Rouge and Romeo and Juliet. So this is going to be an episode with every feeling that you could possibly feel. I am so ready. I am so ready. We're so close on so many of our
01:34:47
Speaker
tastes. And then we're yeah so far apart on some of them. And I'm very interested to see where we divide. Well, thank you, Melinda. Looking forward to the next episode. Yeah, me too. See you then. Bye.