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Guest: Author and Activist: TT Madden
23 Plays2 days ago
This week Wednes speaks with gender-fluid author of sci-fi, spec-fic, and the perpetually weird. We opine on the importance of support systems, when gender dysphoria shows up later in life, and the mandela effect. We also talk zombies, publishing, and Conrad Veidt. Also TWs and why anyone opposing them can eff off, plus what qualifies as 'weird fiction," and TT talks about their book: Loading the Machine Child. We close with a MadLib and a fantastic short story read by our guest.
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Transcript
Introduction and Topics Overview
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
00:00:24
Speaker
Music
00:00:34
Speaker
You are listening to the Mentally
Guest Introduction: TT Madden
00:00:36
Speaker
Oddcast. My name is Wednesday Lead Friday. And with us today, we have TT Madden, who is a gender fluid mixed race author who refuses to keep politics out of their writing or to put AI in Love it.
00:00:52
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Their work writing weird fiction often deals with the intersections of their various identities. Welcome TT. Hey, Wednesday. i am very excited to be here.
00:01:04
Speaker
Sweet. Well, we're excited to have you. um As is so often the case, we tried a few different times to to schedule this interview, and now we're finally doing it. So that's good news.
First Horror Movie Experience
00:01:16
Speaker
um We generally do begin by asking guests to tell us about the first horror movie that they remember seeing. And because you and I have never met before, I have no idea what yours might be.
00:01:28
Speaker
ah the first one that i remember seeing it was probably the mummy the brendan fraser one um there were definitely some other ones that um i watched at you know like sleepovers in elementary school and stuff um but the mummy is the one that like really stands out to me because I saw that in the theaters um and i remember being like oh my god this is like the scariest thing ever but also like the coolest feeling and like after that constantly going out and seeking things to replicate that feeling and to you know make my own stuff that also replicated that
00:02:23
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Okay, so how old were you when that happened? Oh, I was nine, and my dad got in big trouble for that one. Wow, so horror not not encouraged in your household.
00:02:38
Speaker
Well, it it was encouraged, um mostly ah not in front of my little brother because he was a little more sensitive to it. um But my mom could see how excited I was about like all of this scary stuff. And she my dad was always like, oh, yeah, they'll be fine. But my mom took a little more to come around to be like, okay They really enjoy it. I don't entirely understand it but it doesn't seem to be scaring them. So I'll i'll allow it.
00:03:15
Speaker
Nice. Well, yeah, I mean, there was a lot more hysteria around horror, especially like after the 80s. People just really flipped out about it then. and So, yeah, people kind of felt the reverberations from that. I know a lot of people in in your age group that their parents were like,
00:03:34
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really opposed to horror or at least were reticent, like watching the movie themselves alone before they showed it to their kids, that
Exploring Weird Fiction Genre
00:03:44
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sort of thing. Yeah.
00:03:47
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So you are an author of weird fiction. Now is that, that's an industry term there, right? Like that is a legit subgenre that's just called the weird stuff, right?
00:04:00
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Yeah, so there's you know like specific waves of it. you know like There's new weird with like China Mieville and Jeff Vandermeer.
00:04:13
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um But I really like weird fiction because I think um like speculative fiction to me sometimes sounds a little too hoity-toity.
00:04:25
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um And though even though I mostly write horror, I dip into sci-fi and fantasy too. um So I think like really anything where it's just sort of like not based in reality, um i think is good to sort of explain kind of like where I want to live as a writer. Okay, so who who's the audience for that?
00:04:57
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I think, thankfully, I think there's so much more um cross-genre than there has been recently.
00:05:09
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um You know, there's a lot of stuff that is marketed to one genre. um Like, I'm thinking of um You've Lost a Lot of Blood by Eric LaRocca.
00:05:26
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um which is always shelved in the horror section, but it's also about like entering inside ah a video game and a virtual reality.
00:05:37
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and So there's a lot of you know sci-fi elements. um
00:05:44
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And I think... when people hear these, or they used to, when people hear, you know, horror genre, um they would tend to think more slasher, or just kind of like buckets of blood.
Flexibility of Horror Genre
00:06:02
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um And i I think that people, you know, gratefully are being a little more accepting of like, genres kind of like, becoming a bit more fluid than they have been in the past.
00:06:17
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Yeah, wholeheartedly agree. um um I'm a big fan of using the broadest interpretation possible when just deciding what is horror and what is not.
00:06:29
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People have come on this show to say that Jaws is not a horror movie because it's so action-packed. And if you're not horrified by a child being eaten alive in front of you, i don't I'm not even sure classification is your biggest issue. Yeah.
00:06:45
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You know, like ah horror is is where the horror is, you know? Because I also, i encounter a lot of people that write in genres that I don't read, like romance, for example, is is probably ah the main one.
00:07:01
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And um they'll tell me that they don't read horror and then they'll talk about how much they love stuff like white oleander or the lovely bones, which are Yeah, it's it's like chick lit or whatever, but absolutely horrific things happening in the books. But because there's no one in a hockey mask slashing people up, they presume it's not horror. a Horror doesn't work that way. It's it's so much bigger than that.
00:07:30
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Maybe sinners. Maybe the popularity of sinners will help people understand that horror is a lot than they're giving it credit for. Then again, maybe not given how many idiots still compare it to from dusk till dawn. Yeah.
00:07:45
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Oh my God. It's infuriating.
Mental Health and Identity Journey
00:07:48
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Um, I do want to talk about your diagnosis. Now I'm aware that you live with anxiety and depression and that you've experienced trauma in addition to gender dysphoria.
00:08:01
Speaker
Um, I'm guessing all of those diagnoses did not come about at the same time. Can you, can you tell us a bit about how that happened? No. So the probably the first thing that I was diagnosed with was OCD. And I had like the biggest manifestation was um having to um you know touch things a certain amount of times or the right way. or having to you know if I go through a doorway,
00:08:36
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my brain would go, no, that's not the right way. And I would have to take a step back through the doorway and then enter it the right way again. um You know, certain ticks where if I'm, if I like go around a corner of my house, I had to tap the the corner of the wall.
00:08:57
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um Just a lot of stuff like that. That was the big first thing. um and then diagnosed with depression and anxiety in like throughout high school and college.
00:09:14
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And what I first really figured out that I had like gender dysphoria was um like around the time of the of the pandemic you know everybody was doing a lot of like introspection then um and once i sort of figured out what was going on there it made some of these other things a little lighter um
00:09:47
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so those are the things that i've been like like with a professional diagnosed with um the other the other one was and i know we um you asked this question a little bit before we got on mike was um is it ptsd um this being from a um a couple traumatic like physical incidents that happened to me um and i'm not entirely sure i'm a little hesitant to claim the status of
00:10:21
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something that a professional didn't diagnose me with. um But yeah, the the big ones were definitely the anxiety, the depression and the OCD.
00:10:33
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Okay. So you were a child when you exhibited signs of OCD. Is that right? Yeah, I was really young. I was maybe in first grade when the the big like ticks started first happening.
00:10:55
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And was that a school counselor that got you aye diagnosed or did your parents take you in? I saw a counselor in school and then I saw a um separate counselor that um I guess my parents like had through their insurance or something.
00:11:15
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um But I worked with him for a while. um and sometimes it, you know, like initially it was like,
00:11:26
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I hesitate to say crippling because you don't have that much like um agency when you're in like first grade. um But I did like really with his help sort of lean away from, you know, like the example I used earlier of like having to enter and reenter a room the right way, you know, stuff like that.
00:11:55
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That's really interesting because it's very different than a lot of what me and and my contemporaries experienced, which is that we were women and we're Gen X.
Understanding Gender Dysphoria
00:12:08
Speaker
So as long as we could be quiet in class, nobody looked to see if we had any sort of, you know, autism, dyslexia, learning disabilities, OCD, like any, they didn't even look.
00:12:21
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So we're all looking at each other in our like forties and fifties saying, wow. So we weren't just lazy and stupid. Isn't that neat? Yeah. Yeah, like, i actually... my my OCD thing is about... um being symmetrical.
00:12:38
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Like if I splash cold water on my left hand, I have to splash cold water on my right hand or nothing makes sense for the rest of the day. Oh, yeah. Up to and including like minor pain. i have to make it even or it will just i will fixate on it.
00:12:54
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And I've never had treatment for that just because I think I had so many other things I needed treatment for. um so While you were getting your various diagnoses, I'm also interested to talk about gender dysphoria so late in life. I think that's something I don't encounter here often on the show.
00:13:15
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a lot of the people I talked to with gender dysphoria knew about it much, much younger. And I think what what I wonder is if that's because society is a little better at at talking about things now, they You know, a lot of people that I know who became, that you know, they so transitioned as adults even, and they didn't realize it was an option. Like no one had ever brought that up in their presence, you know? So they're 40, like, well, what what do you mean I'm not the right gender? How how is is that even a thing?
00:13:49
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You know, like finding out you should have had a second head and you, you know, you never met a two-headed person so nobody ever told you, you didn't consider it. So, I don't want to just sort of open-ended what was that like to be an adult realizing you had gender dysphoria, but I can't think of a wittier question. So what was that like?
00:14:11
Speaker
Well, when I was young, I remember there was in terms of like gender expression and sexual orientation.
00:14:25
Speaker
When I was young, we knew that like Gay was a thing. we were of the generation where it was, you know, still mostly used as an insult.
00:14:37
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um Every once in a while there would be like an adult. Like I remember there were um a couple gentlemen who lived across the hall from my grandmother years and for years And it was it was literally the the cliche where she said, oh, that's these aren't their real names, but you know that's Jim and his roommate Tom.
00:15:11
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And I was like... they they have wedding rings on grandma roommates have their own bedrooms yeah um so we knew that that um like that was sort of like the only um expression of queerness in my childhood we did have um
00:15:43
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a few kids who, um throughout grade school, boys who would dress as girls for Halloween, because haha isn't that funny.
00:15:57
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And um
00:16:02
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i I don't want to say that it was good natured because it it wasn't like they were female characters from any pop culture or anything. They were just like, hey, what if we dressed as girls?
00:16:15
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And then on November 1st, they put pants on again. um right But and in media as well, like the only thing that I really remember um like vividly from childhood that talked about um like transness or gender dysphoria was um not even gender dysphoria, it's just a bunch of terrible transphobic jokes, was Ace Ventura.
00:16:48
Speaker
Oh gosh. Yeah. So for like way longer than I would have liked, i feel like I was brainwashed by modern culture into believing, oh this is like, it means something's wrong with you.
00:17:08
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um And then as I got older and my worldview expanded and I met more people and I was exposed to more
Discovering Gender Expression
00:17:18
Speaker
queer art, was like, well, wait a second.
00:17:23
Speaker
This fits with like the things that I have been feeling throughout my childhood, where it's like you sort of turn your body off and you don't really feel it.
00:17:39
Speaker
And then when you learn that you can express yourself in a different way, whether it's by um like wearing different clothes or like taking hormones or anything. It's like, oh, wow, I'm actually like, it feels like all of your senses are actually turned on for the first time.
00:18:05
Speaker
Wow.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm thinking back actually to early TV in the 80s, really. and And you seem like you're quite a bit younger than me. So perhaps you were not familiar with Soap, the is Susan Harris show that she did before Golden Girls.
00:18:28
Speaker
No, I haven't seen that. It's a late night. or you know, like a primetime spoof of of soap operas and Billy Crystal played the first openly gay character on television.
00:18:41
Speaker
And it was by modern standards, not a great portrayal. Like they don't even distinguish between like the presumption is that because he's gay, he is also trans.
Evolving LGBTQ+ Portrayals
00:18:56
Speaker
He wishes he was a woman because he likes men. Like that, that was a big part of it.
00:19:02
Speaker
And also, um, just, uh, I mean, they were, they were trying, but like LA law, they were kind of patting themselves on the back for mentioning something that they were simultaneously playing for laughs.
00:19:18
Speaker
Cause LA law, the old legal show, they're opening their, their pilot episode. One of the lawyers died and it turned out that he had a trans mistress.
00:19:30
Speaker
And, you know, the the I mean, even TV Guide was like, oh, it's so forward. It's so you know, modern and it's daring to to bring up these characters.
00:19:41
Speaker
It's not daring to have your main cast laugh at someone for an entire episode and then be like, oh, look how open-minded we are. but I mean, even Iron Man, the the first Iron Man movie has transphobic humor in it. And that wasn't all that long ago.
00:19:58
Speaker
so oh it does i must have blocked that from my memory oh yeah there's a you know a military style joke about like oh ha ha ha be sure to you know give rhodia a good chuckle about the the you know basically that he the the joke is that he got with some person and then found out they were trains and isn't that funny oh god so yeah i mean it's it's not even a good joke You have to make a joke that hurts someone, at least make it a funny joke. Like, you know, I'm um'm a fat chick, so I'm not wild about fat chike about fat jokes, but if you tell a funny one, I'll distinguish a funny joke from an unfunny fat joke. I'm not, you know.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah. that That matters. Quality counts. Right.
00:20:49
Speaker
So, um, when you were getting diagnosed, would you say that you had a strong support system in place that you were, uh, like, well, you were supported, that you, that you, uh, were, were less judged and more like, this is something we're going to work through as opposed to, Hey man, you're a problem now.
Importance of Supportive Relationships
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think. with a lot of people, it was really supportive. There's always someone who is like,
00:21:27
Speaker
I support you, even though I don't entirely understand like what this is that's going on inside your brain, whether it's the, you know, the OCD, the anxiety, the depression, the dysphoria.
00:21:44
Speaker
Um, and sometimes even after you've you know explained it several times and they still don't really get it, they're still supportive.
00:21:58
Speaker
um I'm like, okay, that ah that is at least at least you put in the effort to to try. um you know It's okay to not get it as long as you give it a shot.
00:22:13
Speaker
um But yeah, there were some... other people who um who thankfully i'm not involved with anymore who were like you know what do you have to be sad about you know that kind of thing um or you know uh thinking that a romantic relationship would cure
00:22:45
Speaker
um like anxiety or depression, like that kind of mindset. um But, you know, on the whole, like the family and and friends that I have have been very supportive.
00:23:02
Speaker
Well, that's awesome. That is awesome. um Because, you know, a lot of people don't have that and it makes makes all the difference. So,
00:23:15
Speaker
so when When on your journey did you start
Early Writing Influences
00:23:20
Speaker
writing? Because it sounds like, from what I'm i'm seeing and and reading of you, that there's a strong connection between who you are and your journey ofs of self-discovery and your writing career.
00:23:33
Speaker
So when when did those two things meet?
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah, I started writing... i think i was in like the second grade when i wrote my first story and it was about like a a b because at that point i was really into um red wall um which is still my jam okay so i i did that and then um I went through a a really huge and still am in a big, never-ending Lord of the Rings obsession.
00:24:16
Speaker
um So I was doing a lot of like um like fantasy stories and like you know second worlds and stuff like that. um But it was really all just like cool.
00:24:34
Speaker
And that was kind of like the surface of it. I was like, Yeah, I kind of like this story, because there's some cool, you know, world building, or i like this, like magic system that i created or something like that.
00:24:49
Speaker
um But I was always trying to find, like something deeper. um and really starting to when I really started to look into like my own journey and my own self and realizing that like these are the things that I'm currently discovering and can write about and
00:25:23
Speaker
these aspects of myself really became like impossible to remove from my writing like i can't it's not enough for me to write something that's like just cool or just fun anymore you know, it's got to be about one of these pieces of me or, you know, something that's going on in the world um that really speaks to um
00:25:55
Speaker
to something that I'm authentically feeling and not just like, oh, this was a cool story with like a neat dragon. Not that I knock anybody that does that because I do love to read that from time to time, but when it puts so much...
00:26:11
Speaker
what you're saying makes so much sense because i think that a lot of neurodivergent writers in particular feel an obligation to share the insights that we've gained about ourselves with other people that we think will find them helpful you know and that's where i think a lot of that comes from just Like the the obligation, like it's, you know, you've done the work. So once you get up a little higher on that letter, the the next thing that it occurs to you to do is look down to see if anybody else needs a hand.
00:26:50
Speaker
And that I think is something that liberal people, poor people, creative people. neurodivergent people do far better than their opposites.
Creatives' Responsibility in Art
00:27:03
Speaker
You know, those sane, high functioning, financially comfortable, you know, types that can blend into any situation, because they they tend to be oblivious to things that they aren't directly experiencing.
00:27:19
Speaker
Whereas once you've had to do the the deep dive into yourself as a person, excuse it, excuse me it it just makes that much more sense to look around and say well how do i help other people with this how do i help what what uh other people are are living with and going through um and and looking through your book uh loading the machine child um that's That's one of the things that strikes me about it is that this is not just a book for you. This is a book for people that are figuring their shit out.
00:27:57
Speaker
and And first I want to say, like the book in general, i love the layout. I think whoever did your... the interior design, they make some bold choices with the fonts and the layout. I'm really impressed with it And a lot of publishers just don't emphasize that kind of design. And I think it's it's so immersive. Like it's it's so effective in this context that I wish more publishers would look at at things like that. do you have any thoughts about that? About whoever did your design work here?
00:28:33
Speaker
Oh, thank you. That was my publisher at Speculations Publications. That's who was putting out Loading the Machine Child. um When I first started writing that book, it was the in terms of font, it was way crazier.
00:28:56
Speaker
Um, and I have to give huge props to, speculations because they were like, we really want to go big with this, but there are also some realities of, um, publishing and printing that I just, as a writer did not understand. Um, so they were like, we want to really want to keep this as,
00:29:27
Speaker
close to what you initially sent us as humanly possible.
Creative Design in Publishing
00:29:33
Speaker
But there are some things that we just, for one reason or another, just can't pull off.
00:29:40
Speaker
um So they really did and an excellent job of trying to keep this like big, crazy idea that I had with like the font shifts and the POV shifts and um all those different like video game texts, keeping that intact.
00:30:01
Speaker
um And that's just something that's something that I like to see when I open a book, you know, There's always the one that people go to first is like House of Leaves.
00:30:18
Speaker
And for me, for me as a writer, I'm like, that's, I think, a little excessive. I'm never going to do something like that. um Yeah, I mean, the thing about House of Leaves is that at a certain point, it starts to feel like work.
00:30:36
Speaker
yeah yeah it just it it reaches a level of frustration that i'm just like i'm not even enjoying myself that's why i sat down to read today was to enjoy myself and now i feel insane yeah yeah i was like if i could have something as simple as um changing the font and the margins when a different character is speaking.
00:31:05
Speaker
um That was something that was like, okay, that's a little thing that I think goes a long way when you're just opening the book and looking at it. And then when you're reading the story, you can really, hopefully, you'll be able to feel the actual change on the page itself. And that's just something that I always love to look at as a reader.
00:31:30
Speaker
That's really interesting because, you know, when I looked at like before I started reading it, when I was just looking at it to get to get the vibe, um what I was thinking was that there are readers like, you know, stodgy boomery type readers.
00:31:47
Speaker
that would dismiss a book out of hand for this, for it its non-traditional style. you know And my initial reaction is, oh, what a drag, because people are going to miss out.
00:32:01
Speaker
But at the same time, not every book is for every person. And I think it's it's perfectly okay to say, this is the audience. This is who this book is for.
00:32:14
Speaker
These are the people that I think this book will write will resonate with. So if you can't get with this, this is not the right book for you. You know, as opposed to the author philosophy of, oh no we have to make the book accessible to everyone. Otherwise, you know, the publisher, blah, blah, blah, money, money, whatever.
00:32:35
Speaker
you... you You emphatically did not make that choice. You made the book what you wanted it to be.
00:32:43
Speaker
I have such mad respect for that. I don't always do that. I've definitely, i mean, I took a book back from a publisher once, but the first time I was going to get like a legit advance, they wanted so many changes that I eventually just said, well, no, I'm i'm not doing that. I'm not cutting out an entire character. That's one of my favorite characters, you know, that sort of thing. And these are, these are difficult decisions. yeah And I think that people who don't write,
00:33:12
Speaker
Or who are you know, they write their own book and then they self-edit it and then they self-publish it. They're not necessarily thinking about these kinds of things either. So I'm a pretty philosophical person in everything I do. I always want to look at the big picture and how...
00:33:32
Speaker
You know, like not just what something is, but what it it will mean eventually. So yeah, this this really speaks to this. Now, I have to ask you about something else.
Art as Lifelong Inspiration
00:33:43
Speaker
Because you have a quote, before the actual story starts, from Dan O'Bannon. Now, I have been a zombie fan my whole life. I was maybe seven when I saw Fulci's zombie in the drive-in.
00:33:58
Speaker
Oh, that's so cool. Isn't it? Isn't it? I mean, zombies and sharks were my favorite things at the time because of Jaws and Night of the Living Dead. So when that happened, I lost my little wetness mind. It was insane. But Dan O'Bannon is the reason that people think that zombies can talk.
00:34:22
Speaker
um And I, speaking of philosophy, i am opposed to that on a ph philosophical level. i mean, now obviously zombies are like falling in love with people and becoming private detectives and shit. So, you know, it's a little different than than it was then. But back in the day, everybody thought zombies could talk because of that motherfucker Dan O'Bannon. And...
00:34:48
Speaker
Well, and you know, when I first went on Facebook and it started to become a thing that regular people could talk to famous people, That was the first thing out of my mouth, man. Dan O'Bannon, what are you thinking? What were you doing? what What the hell? I mean, thanks for Alien, but like, stop it. Stop saying that. stop You know?
00:35:10
Speaker
And then when i when I finally talked to John Russo, I said the same thing. i was like, how could you let that happen? You worked on Night of the Living Dead and then you're the brains brains guy? Come on, man.
00:35:23
Speaker
um So, but it turns out those dudes didn't even take zombies as seriously as I do. for For better or worse, I guess. But but why why did you choose a Dan O'Bannon quote is is my question.
00:35:37
Speaker
So i for a long time, I also really did not like talking zombies or the whole like a return of the living deadline.
00:35:49
Speaker
um I really it admittedly was like really uptight about horror comedies and was like, okay, there's already a bunch of people who don't like horror and think that everybody who likes horror is just some sort of freak ass degenerate.
00:36:10
Speaker
And then if we don't take ourselves seriously, then they're never going to take us seriously. um a stance which I think is now horseshit because horror comedies are great. I love Tucker and Dale versus evil. I love Return to Living Dead. I love Evil Dead.
00:36:33
Speaker
um And I think it's part of the elasticity of the horror genre that you can have both um Night of Living Dead and Return of Living Dead like coexisting side by side.
00:36:53
Speaker
um But the real reason that that I picked that quote in particular was because of the making of the movie.
00:37:05
Speaker
um To have someone... like There's always this narrative of you know you're going to discover what you love to do in your twenty s You're going to get married and have kids and everything is like if you don't accomplish these artificial life goals by X amount, X point in your life, then you're somehow a failure.
00:37:34
Speaker
um But I think it's OK to, you know, if you found something that you love and you're still alive, you've still got time to do it.
00:37:48
Speaker
Like, and you can't get lost in, oh man, i I really wish I discovered this earlier or or something like that. um And in the case of of Dan O'Bannon, it being um specifically more directed at directing a film, but really to me, it was like art.
00:38:14
Speaker
whatever that art is, you know, I'm not a film director. um But I know that just from those lines that know that Dan O'Bannon and I have felt the same feeling, like this art makes us feel alive.
00:38:36
Speaker
And I think a lot of other people you know, hopefully you get to experience that and have as much time with that as possible. But even if you don't, and you find it a little later in life, you still get it. And that's incredible.
00:38:53
Speaker
Right on, right on. Yeah. i want I want to go back and hit a few of the different things that you said because you said so many extremely relevant things. um One of which is the idea that a horror comedy is horror not taking itself seriously.
Power of Horror and Comedy
00:39:16
Speaker
And that, obviously you've rethought that since you you first thought it, but um that's something that so many people think, that comedy is not serious.
00:39:28
Speaker
that the comedic actors, for example, comedy writers are less diligent and serious people than those who do dramatic work.
00:39:39
Speaker
You know, and that's why it's really fun when you find out people that are known for being serious actually have great comedic timing. I was so excited to find out that Jon Hamm had great comedic sensibilities.
00:39:53
Speaker
um I was equally excited to find out that people like Will Ferrell and Jim Carrey and Steve Carell were actually capable of really punchy, poignant uh, authentic, serious work. I think stranger think fiction is one of those movies that, and it it seems a little off base because it's not necessarily a comedy and it's, it's not really a horror movie, but it is about a guy who you're worried is going to die the whole time.
00:40:24
Speaker
And it's not even about the death. It's like he's he's trying to keep himself alive, but only because he just found a reason to, like very recently.
00:40:36
Speaker
up until then, he was just going through the motions. So there's so much there. And when we dismiss comedy as, oh, ah ha ha ha ha, that's, that's,
00:40:46
Speaker
You know, the the flip side of of saying that horror is all slashers. Like, people simplify things so that they're easier to denigrate. But if you look at what passionate people are doing in the arts, I mean, horror and and comedy both reach people in ways that, you know, a lot of straight drama, romance, even action movies, you know, they they don't necessarily resonate with people.
00:41:15
Speaker
because horror and comedy both rely on drawing emotion out of people that they would not have otherwise felt. You know, making someone laugh is involuntary. Startling someone, terrifying them, involuntary. Like they're there because they want to be, they want that experience probably.
00:41:35
Speaker
But to actually bring it out of them, you have to hit them in a way that they are not expecting, which is so powerful, so much more powerful then than other genres.
00:41:47
Speaker
So yeah, it seems like whether conscious or not, you absolutely know that and you are taking full advantage of it. So kudos to you, my man. um Now I also want to talk about trigger warnings because trigger warnings are pretty controversial in the horror and the bizarro communities, a lot of different communities.
Role of Trigger Warnings
00:42:11
Speaker
that pride themselves on being weird or extreme, over the top, sometimes they get real precious about trigger warnings. Now, I know that you use them. i use them as well.
00:42:25
Speaker
What would you say to people who say, well, you just shouldn't read that genre if you need a trigger warning? Well, I think, you know, like we've already talked a little bit about how um like elastic the horror genre is and the kinds of things that can happen in it you know for example you could probably put the same set of trigger warnings on a straight horror movie as you could on a horror comedy
00:42:59
Speaker
and despite them being the same events, they would hit completely and totally differently. um i think it was...
00:43:13
Speaker
um i can't remember the there was a reviewer i can't remember who said it um maybe someone will be able to help me out later um that said um they like to use content warnings as opposed to trigger warnings and just being that specific phrase of I can tell you what is in what is in this story that is potentially going to set someone off. But people may have legitimate triggers that I have never even considered.
00:43:51
Speaker
um So it just seems like a
00:43:58
Speaker
a bit of a nicer warning, I guess. um And there's also one that I found that was really funny.
00:44:10
Speaker
It's the the trigger warning at the beginning of the Nat Cassidy novel, When the Wolf Comes Home. And I'm going to paraphrase it but it's because I don't have the book in front of me.
00:44:25
Speaker
um But it's something along the lines of, you know, people who need this for mental health reasons need it. And if you're a sicko like me, you get a little taste of what's coming, which which I thought was really funny and a good sort of way to um to play with that.
00:44:48
Speaker
but Yeah, I am a big advocate for for content warnings, trigger warnings, whatever you want to say, because they're on literally everything else. We just call them ratings.
00:45:03
Speaker
Yeah. You know, when you look at a movie, it tells you why it's rated r When you look at a video game, it tells you why it's rated M or teen or whatever.
00:45:16
Speaker
um but there's no like governing board for fiction in the same way that there is for these other forms of media. Um, so i think that is and important thing. Um, and also, you know, just like,
00:45:43
Speaker
it's impossible to tell how far someone is really going to go, you know, like, I don't think that ah a content warning on a um especially if you're unfamiliar with the, the writer, if you're trying out someone new for the first time um to give you ah a little taste of, of what they're going to do. yeah i think it's a I think there's upon no no reason not to do it.
00:46:15
Speaker
um And if you're so hurt by trigger warnings, then you can skip that page. Well, yeah, I mean, it seems like the only legitimate reason to be upset about a trigger warning or a content warning would be if it contains a blatant spoiler and you weren't able to avoid it. So all you really have to do is put those on the back page.
00:46:37
Speaker
So yeah if you're looking for it because you want it it's it's there. and If you don't, then you can skip it. Now, I do distinguish between trigger warnings and content warnings.
00:46:48
Speaker
I don't know if this is the official definition, but as I understand it, ah trigger warning is about something that can literally trigger someone with PTSD.
00:47:00
Speaker
And so that's things like certain kinds of death, you know, children, suicide, sexual assault, war violence, you know, stuff like that. But the thing is, i mean, there's, there was an entire website called does the dog die?
00:47:16
Speaker
which was about of one very specific kind of of warning that has since expanded to a bajillion different kinds of warnings.
00:47:29
Speaker
and And what it really allows people to do, like if you're a dickish person and you're against those kinds of warnings, you would interpret that as, well, some people just want to avoid reality.
00:47:40
Speaker
But if you have any sort of empathy or kindness, you can say, well, you know, I'm relaxing at the end of the law of a long day. i don't want to read about someone's cat getting murdered by a crazy ex-boyfriend. Like I want to know whether or not something like that is coming.
00:47:56
Speaker
So I would distinguish it that way. But like, you know, if if you watch Disney, for example, Disney now has content warnings that say, hey This movie came out in the 40s. It's kind of racist. So just be aware before you watch it with your kids.
00:48:12
Speaker
you know, this is a movie where the good guys are smoking cigarettes. So maybe talk to your kids about that and if that's an important issue at your house. You know, that kind of thing. Just so that people can be better informed.
Art's Impact on Society
00:48:25
Speaker
And I think that it's it is possible that if we had called it trigger information instead of trigger warnings, that people would be less like, e you need a warning to read a book. you know like oh you're so right.
00:48:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's all in the phrasing. Yeah. yeah in the In the horror community, though, i encounter so many people and it's it's just infuriating. It's like, first of all, nobody's story is so perfect and precious that it doesn't matter if it hurts the people who read it.
00:49:03
Speaker
If you are a writer, you already know that words have power. And so to write powerful words and then pretend that either people that are, you know, feeling the power of your words are somehow wrong or wimpy for doing that, or this idea that like, what, I just wrote a story. I didn't do anything. And just completely try to absolve yourself of the responsibility of what you put out into the world.
00:49:32
Speaker
That's just bullshit. I'm not, I'm not hearing it. Take responsibility for what you do. And I just think at the core of that attitude of like, I don't care if my book hurts people, you know, like, I don't think Stephen King writes books with the intention of hurting people.
00:49:50
Speaker
But as a fat person, he is absolutely said shit at his books that hurt me. you know the way he talks about fat people is not good there's also the whole like magical negro trope uh there's in it that are just like my god how much fucking cocaine were you on when you wrote this little gang bang orgy between 11 year olds or whatever like you know but but nobody people don't look at stephen king and say oh he's a terrible person he wants to hurt people But at the same time, you can't buy Richard Bachman's Rage anymore because Stephen King wanted it out of print.
00:50:31
Speaker
And I don't even agree with that decision, but I respect that he made it I can recall reading Rage in high school and as a ah weird kid that didn't fit in in an abusive household, I felt very seen by that story.
00:50:49
Speaker
It's the kind of book that makes you not feel like you should go shoot up a school because look, that guy sees me. They see what I am going through and and that's valid. But then we find out that several school shooters had it in their presence.
00:51:05
Speaker
And so he didn't want it out for that reason. But I mean, come on, we we all know what the the number one book that people have in their possession is when they go around hurting people. There is one book that stands out above all other books and we're still selling it. So it's the Bible, if anybody missed that. Yeah. It's the the King James Christian Bible. um But yeah, that's that's kind of ah a whole other tangent for a different day, maybe. But but what what I was going to actually transition into here was empathy, because we're American, and...
00:51:49
Speaker
a lack of empathy, like an aggressive, proud lack of empathy is at the core of our our current political, socio-political scene, really.
00:52:01
Speaker
i mean, for those of you who aren't following the news in America, we're being run by a bunch of fascist bullies who behave like over-sex teens.
Reflecting Societal Issues in Art
00:52:09
Speaker
um How does that impact you as ah as a writer? Like, what what are you doing about that with your work?
00:52:17
Speaker
I think first as a primarily as like a human and I think i've I've seen a lot of people a lot of my friends a lot of writers that I'm um that I just know through like social media and haven't met in person yet posting things like you know it's okay to, you know, like slow down. it's okay if you're not creating right now because yeah, like, holy shit, just look around.
00:52:55
Speaker
um I can't remember who said it, but someone, someone said that, you know, want to say it was David Lynch. I'm not entirely sure said that, um,
00:53:07
Speaker
if you people think that like artists um depressed artists make good art but it's really that no depressed artists just like lay in their bed and don't want to get up for you know days at a time um yep and that's like very real and something that i think everybody is um experiencing right now if you have a soul um It's hard to look outside and not immediately think bad thoughts.
00:53:45
Speaker
um
00:53:47
Speaker
But I also think that as a any type of creative, um especially if you're a creative coming from a marginalized background, it's impossible to not reflect the things that you're looking at um
00:54:13
Speaker
for example i had a friend who wrote a um historical viking book um that depicted i'm I can't remember this this man's name um but it was like partially based on the true story of how Christendom started to like take over Viking culture and she unintentionally drew a lot of parallels with like modern demagogues and especially Trump.
00:54:50
Speaker
And she was like, I didn't mean to do that when I was writing it. And I was like, yeah, it just sort of seeps in by osmosis. You know, we're just always going to reflecting the world that's happening around us.
00:55:09
Speaker
um And I think there is this idea from a lot of people who say something about like, Oh, I want, I want to create something timeless, you know, something that's going to last forever.
00:55:27
Speaker
um That has universal themes, you know, is always like the big one. no And really just at and any, any point in history, just look outside,
00:55:44
Speaker
feel what you feel is going on right now and odds are your gut is going to reflect those things back out without you realizing it and then you know as you keep working working on it working on it you'll be able to create a piece of art, whatever that art is of yours, um that has that message.
00:56:13
Speaker
That's something to respond to what's going on right now. um Like one of the books that I wrote um called the The Shapes of Our Screams was very deliberately about the Florida, the initial Florida drag ban in, gosh, what was it? I think like 2021 or something, maybe even earlier.
00:56:45
Speaker
um And, you know, it's timestamped in in the book too, even though it came out earlier this year. um And I still don't feel like that,
00:56:59
Speaker
is a super old story, um even though it's placed in one specific moment in time, um you know, we're still seeing the the ripple effects of of that kind of thinking.
00:57:14
Speaker
so totally. Totally. It's interesting because what you were just saying makes me think of the idea like when you juxtapose artists who say well i need to i want my work to be well known like right away i want to be a young prodigy i want to you know be this like huge person that impacts all these different people with my universal message that everyone can relate to but at the same time you're a fucking kid you haven't lived through anything yet
00:57:48
Speaker
So odds are when you, I mean, you need to live life. That's why AI can't do what artists do because the purpose of art is about making sense of the things that you've experienced, what you've seen and what you've lived.
00:58:04
Speaker
So the most impactful art comes from older people who have lived life and can compare things and see all those patterns, which I think is a little off, off the point of that you were making, but, but not entirely.
00:58:18
Speaker
um Now, I'm aware that you live in Baltimore as a mixed race person, and I don't know really enough about that community to know how that, to to guess really how that might be going for you. How is it going for you?
00:58:37
Speaker
Well, growing up, I lived in a predominantly white area. I was not in the city Um, so there was a lot of, um, what is it called? It's like, um, romantic racism where someone says something racist, but they mean it as a positive, um, you know, like one piece of romantic racism is like all, all Asians are good at math.
00:59:17
Speaker
you know like it's a positive thing but it's like okay what you said was so crazy racist um so there's a lot of I explained it to someone once as um to a lot of the white people that I grew up with I was um
00:59:47
Speaker
considered black enough to be exotic and interesting but not considered black enough to be a threat.
00:59:58
Speaker
Well, that's Which is i think how a lot of people see like this sort of sliding spectrum when do you get into um mixed races.
01:00:18
Speaker
That's, that's blowing my mind, honestly, because I'm married to a mixed race guy who very much presents as black. And when people meet him, one of the things that they comment about, i mean, they're, it's so offensive. They'll say, oh, he's so articulate.
01:00:36
Speaker
Oh, I hate that. He's a very intelligent man who reads a lot. Like, you know, like, like he's gonna just come in and start throwing ebonics at everyone. Like, I don't i like what were you expecting? You know what? Don't tell me. Don't tell me what you were expecting. Yeah, I have. you'll be friends after this what Yeah, I have gotten that too.
01:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, well, big I've actually heard someone use the expression talking white. He really talks white. Like, well, I mean, he he is speaking English, but i I don't think that's what you mean.
01:01:13
Speaker
You're saying something very offensive, and I would like you to rethink it, please. Because boy, as a white person raised by conservatives, I thought I understood racism until I started hanging out with this guy and it it ah just opened up new worlds of like, you know, i mean, some of the questions that I was asked are straight out of like, get out.
01:01:38
Speaker
yeah You're honestly asking me that question. i'm not telling you. What the hell? so yeah at At one time I met a a man who had recently emigrated from India um and he was unfamiliar with a lot of the like race stuff that goes on in America. He was several also several shades darker than my skin and he didn't realize
01:02:18
Speaker
he was like, so why are people being racist to you when my skin is darker? So then there's also that whole different thing of like um country of origin and colorism like bringing into it.
Advice on Community Support
01:02:36
Speaker
So it's not just, you know, purely about skin tone.
01:02:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
So let me ask you this for people in vulnerable demographics, what advice would you share in terms of protecting themselves and their people?
01:03:01
Speaker
who Yeah, i i would say trust your community, you know, the people around you, who you talk to every day.
01:03:16
Speaker
Also, trust, well, well i'll I'll do that later. um You know, the people who have been having the same experiences as you, um who know the specific struggles that someone like you is going through, one...
01:03:39
Speaker
like one This was very early on, um but one of my friends asked me, can black people really not get COVID? and Whoa!
01:03:52
Speaker
Yeah. um This was really near the beginning, ah like maybe February, maybe March or April of 2020. um And I like very, very calmly sat him down and explained to him like the whole history of like how racist that was.
01:04:14
Speaker
um And he just like genuinely had no idea. um But now he knows. um So yeah, there are people who have the same like lived experiences as you um who know the things that you are going through because of whatever this is that marginalizes you, whether it's your, your,
01:04:39
Speaker
race or your gender presentation or um neurodivergence or any one of a million things um and i don't want to entirely sound like a old man with a tinfoil hat but i would say that don't don't trust any um
01:05:07
Speaker
official entities unless you really really have verified that they're going to do you know what they actually say that they are are going to do Well, and I mean, that was true 30 years ago, but it's alarmingly true now. i mean, I just saw a picture of the director of the FBI getting drunk in a locker room while, you know, Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped and missing and and never found. So, so yeah, that's, it's, it's terrifying. It's, it's comically terrifying what's going on now.
01:05:45
Speaker
And, uh, Yeah, even if they weren't a cadre of sexual predators and their enablers, it would still just be laughable. Like, if I found out that my new newspaper delivery person was Pete Hegseth, I would just plan to go pick up my paper on my way home because I didn't trust him to get it to me.
01:06:04
Speaker
Yeah. So with that in mind, there is a line of thinking that says that it's silly to write fiction or or, you know, work on entertainment at all when the world is burning down around us. What is your take on that?
01:06:22
Speaker
I think it can it can feel that way. And it definitely has felt that way to me a lot recently. You know, I've looked at... ah a story that I've been writing and gone like, like what the fuck am I doing? Like I'm just sitting here behind my computer when there are like a million people and like ice detention centers and alligator Alcatraz and like nine, ah like decades worth of like rape kits that haven't even been opened and like so much other like terrible shit. And yeah,
01:07:01
Speaker
and the first thing that you come up with is you're gonna drive yourself insane if you keep thinking about that um which is not an excuse to block it out entirely um but i think it's a way to make sure that you are more focused um in terms of what you can do and how you can help.
01:07:34
Speaker
um If that's something like donating money to aclu or if that's taking food to a food bank or like volunteering your time somewhere um and sometimes that way that you can help is by making art like i remember a lot of terrible times in my life where i've like
01:08:10
Speaker
read or watched or played something um and sometimes it's just been like a goofy comedy that has taken my mind off of the horrors for 90 minutes um and other times it's been something that really just like changed my brain chemistry and I think that both of those things are equally valuable.
01:08:44
Speaker
um All of those things are equally valuable. um But you know, it's ah about figuring out what you can do to help, like where you can do the most good.
01:09:02
Speaker
yep Yeah, that's that's so on point. And even things that do seem small or insignificant or frivolous can make a world of difference.
01:09:17
Speaker
I had a friend who is about as routinely suicidal as I am. i don't talk about it as much as I used to because it hurts my husband's feelings, but, uh,
01:09:28
Speaker
I sent them a copy of the movie airplane because they had never seen it. Now airplane is a spoof movie. It's, it's spoofs a movie called, uh, the Leslie, Leslie Nielsen.
01:09:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. forget I forget the the name of the movie that it's, it's spoofing, but it's like almost, almost a shot for shot from, from a a very serious airplane movie from the forties or fifties.
01:09:56
Speaker
And, uh, And they watch it every time things get dark for them. They'll just pull it out and watch it and it gets them through because they will laugh for 90 straight minutes and realize, oh yeah, everything doesn't suck.
01:10:15
Speaker
surely they can be serious um that that and it's you know the people that made that movie the suckers they weren't saying you know what we'll make a movie and it'll keep people from killing themselves of course they weren't thinking that they just wanted to make a funny movie because they knew some funny people and you know that's what happened but the reverberating effect of that art is that people hold it and they pass it along and they i mean how many people have you met in your life who have a copy of edward monk's the scream somewhere in their home you know yeah probably a third to a half of the the neurodivergent people i know have that somewhere in their life and you know monk he was just trying to get through the day
01:11:05
Speaker
He wasn't necessarily trying to inspire generations of people to embrace their mental illness and recreate in artistic ways. He was just trying to figure out his own shit.
01:11:17
Speaker
And I don't even know that he, he did that, you know, he he had a ah pretty tough life, tough life as I understand it, but the work that you leave behind, you know, sometimes that's
Art as Lasting Legacy
01:11:31
Speaker
all there is. Like a lot of us, I didn't, I didn't have kids, you know, don't, I don't have an estate that I'm leaving to, to the betterment of society,
01:11:41
Speaker
but you know, the the stuff that I made, sometimes it helps people. And that's often the best you can do. Yeah. that's And that's the thing. like if If you help one person, that's more than a lot of people do. And if one person's life is better because of a difference that you made, that's valid. And that's worthwhile. And that makes it worth the effort in in most cases.
01:12:11
Speaker
So that's that's kind of why we that's kind of why we do this here, is is so that... those experiences and those those concepts get to people who wouldn't otherwise hear them and I feel sort of self-aggrandizing when I say that because that sounds like kind of a lofty goal like oh I want to raise awareness Sure, of the the dozens of people that will hear this episode, some of them will have their awareness raised. But you know what? That makes a big difference.
01:12:43
Speaker
And maybe one of those people takes that information and goes off and does something amazing with it. You know, like people now, if we bring up a name like, a oh, who is the guy that played the man who laughs? Gwyn Plaine. And...
01:13:00
Speaker
is His name is escaping me at the moment because he's not considered a big name in contemporary acting. Conrad Veidt. Yes, yes. But see, that's the thing. If you say, hey you know you you know that Conrad Veidt movie? And people be like, no, what the hell are you talking about?
01:13:15
Speaker
But then when you say, oh, you know, the the Joker. Everybody knows who the Joker is. And they wouldn't without that performance from that particular actor. You know, that sort of thing. that These things, they reverb.
01:13:29
Speaker
Um, now if I can get a little more serious with you for a sec, um, you have indicated a willingness to talk about a time when you were in fear for your life. And we discussed that, uh, law enforcement actually contributed to this. Um, which I have no trouble believing. i have never in my life called the police to help with a situation and had them actually help.
01:13:55
Speaker
They literally never made a situation better for anyone involved. um what What would you like to tell us? Yeah, I've had a few um not great encounters with the police. The only time that I i had a ah positive one was when I got into a car accident. My friend was driving. Thankfully, everyone was fine. We just sort of skidded off the road into a ditch.
01:14:28
Speaker
um But, you know, my white friend did all the talking. So you can sort of guess how that went.
01:14:39
Speaker
Also, a
01:14:43
Speaker
crazy disproportionate amount of times that I've dealt with police officers they've had their hands on their guns which is insane to me um the first time that it ever happened was um there is a um a sort of a well-known speed trap around where I live. There's a highway, the speed limit is 70.
01:15:16
Speaker
And then for about three or five miles, it drops down to 55. um And I was going, so I think I was going 75. So I was over what was posted. And then I went into the the speed trap.
01:15:34
Speaker
didn't realize it got pulled over. um i pulled over, the police officer came up to the side of the vehicle.
01:15:47
Speaker
um He said, um Can you turn the music down? i was listening to music, I turned the music down. He said down means off that was my first solo yeah that was my first solo interaction with a cop so i i just turned it off but my brain said why didn't you say off then right um and then his next question was have you been smoking weed tonight and obviously i wasn't um and he asked me these questions with his hand on his gun
01:16:29
Speaker
and i was like what what are you doing man um but eventually through all of the scariness i you know just got a speeding ticket and i paid it and i well went about my life um another time we i was at a friend's house We called the police because the next door neighbor was harassing this friend's family, um specifically
01:17:05
Speaker
um a dark-skinned guy who was also there at the house. um The police came up. They wanted to speak to our friend, the subject of harassment alone.
01:17:20
Speaker
um and this guy had also recently emigrated, so um there was some English that he didn't understand.
01:17:32
Speaker
um He looked over to us for assistance, and we took another couple steps closer to help out with the translating, and the cop that came to help, again, immediately put his hand on his gun.
01:17:50
Speaker
Oh, for fuck's sake. They're such a coward.
01:17:57
Speaker
ah Eventually that all, you know, weve we solved it Things were okay there. um I also worked at a place where we...
01:18:12
Speaker
our routine, it was a library, where our routine for disruptive customers, because we didn't have a security guard at the time, was if someone needs to be escorted from building, call the non-emergency number.
01:18:27
Speaker
It happened very happen very often. um If it's an emergency, you call 911, obviously. Yes, but having to have someone escorted from the building is an emergency because you don't know what's going to happen.
01:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, um but the really bad thing was was um at one point, the local police station told us to stop calling them because we called too much.
01:19:00
Speaker
and that wasn't necessarily a a fear for my life moment like the other ones were where you know it was dark and i'm here alone with somebody who has a firearm that's two seconds away from being pointed at me um but it wasn't great
01:19:20
Speaker
no i uh i mean i don't want to think of myself as an cab sort of person i would like to think that i give people the benefit of the doubt but i don't know man i mean wanting to be a cop now is like wanting to be an ice agent like well what are you doing there if you're yeah there's not a benevolent reason to do that in the majority of cases so i appreciate you sharing that man because that is good lord
01:19:51
Speaker
Now, I'm also aware that you are gender fluid.
Understanding Gender Fluidity
01:19:55
Speaker
And I am hoping for those who don't know, can you explain how that would differ from being cis or trans or NB?
01:20:05
Speaker
So typically, the you know obviously, everybody has a different definition. um but you know if you're cis, typically, it's like you are the gender that you were assigned at birth.
01:20:20
Speaker
um If you're trans, you typically transition from one gender to the other. um If you're non-binary, you might not have a gender at all.
01:20:34
Speaker
You might fluctuate between genders. um For me, the definition of gender fluidity in in my particular case is it's really just...
01:20:50
Speaker
almost mood based you know there's like there's some days where i feel more masculine and i may dress accordingly and there are some days where i feel more feminine and may dress accordingly um or wear makeup or present myself in a different way, like using different mannerisms.
01:21:20
Speaker
um And sometimes it can last it can last a ah bunch of different amounts of times. you know If I'm feeling more femme, that may last for a couple hours it may last for like a week or longer um but for in for my personal experience um it's really not being like tied down to one specific way of being or one specific way of presenting or um holding myself um you know really just not
01:22:08
Speaker
being tied down to all of the things that people expect of, you know, XYZ gender. Okay, so if I'm hearing you correctly, it's not so much that you feel like you're a different gender on a different day, but that there's a general sense of telling established gender norms to go fuck themselves.
01:22:35
Speaker
Because, you know, some days I, like I'm a cis chick, but some days I feel like putting on makeup and a dress. Some days I don't feel like getting out of my pajamas. Some days I'll put on, you know, overalls and no makeup and a ponytail and just not, you know, care.
01:22:54
Speaker
So I think that it, is it possible that because some people put so much emphasis on like, oh my god, your culottes look like a dress, you must be wanting to be a lady or whatever, that that people put that on people as opposed to people actually saying, well, no, I'm this gender this day and this gender a different day, that it's really more about rebelling against the stupid friggin' gender rules that some people would voice on us.
01:23:28
Speaker
Because we're better than we used to be with gender rules. I mean, there was a time when women were supposed to wear a bajillion petticoats and skirts because if men saw our legs move, they would just be like uncontrollably excited or something. And it's it's always about what people are trying to force on you. And then they want to label you for not being down with whatever restrictive nonsense they've come up with.
01:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, i i I definitely think there is some of that, you know, like the idea of we only very recently um decided to, we I mean, like as a culture, um decided to switch the baby colors, you know, pink used to be for boys and blue used to be for girls.
01:24:15
Speaker
um razor companies decided, Hey, women have two legs. So why don't we sell more razors and tell them to shave those legs and we can make money.
01:24:30
Speaker
um So I think there's some, there is some degree of that. um But also just from like how I was talking about a little bit earlier about what that sort of feeling is to exist in my own body there are definitely days where how I appear in the mirror does not reflect how I feel on the inside and it makes me want to like
01:25:10
Speaker
on my bad days like really just kind of like shred my own body to pieces you can tell i'm a heart writer
01:25:22
Speaker
um yeah say it yeah oh wait um Yeah, so and I think that there is a lot to be said for, you know, if you are a cis man and you want to wear a skirt, it doesn't mean that you're trans. it Maybe it just means that you're at the Ren Faire and you want your beans to breathe because it's hot. You know?
01:25:52
Speaker
so Which I have a friend that wears a kilt to the Ren Faire. And because he goes all the time, he goes commando and it's hot because it's the summer and he's drinking all day.
01:26:05
Speaker
and he's like, yeah, I just, I just want to be comfortable. Um, and that doesn't make him a trans woman.
01:26:14
Speaker
Of course. position Okay. All right. Well, that's, yeah, I think that's, that's a solid explanation. um We're getting toward like the last leg of the interview and I want to make sure we're hitting all the important points now.
01:26:31
Speaker
With regard to your catalog, if someone is unfamiliar with your work, where is the best place for them to start?
01:26:42
Speaker
um I usually would say So i work with I work in libraries a lot. So a lot of the people that i work with are um the almost stereotypical librarian, older women.
01:27:01
Speaker
So I tend to ask, what are like what's your scary threshold? if they have a pretty if If they scare easily, I'll usually say try Gorman's House. It's the young adult book. It doesn't really get above the equivalent of like a PG-13 rating.
01:27:23
Speaker
um So that's a good place to start. But if you are well-versed in horror, um I would probably say either The Shapes of Our Screams, which is a story about a punk band with a gender fluid main character that fights sentient neo-fascist music or the have or the neon revelation which is like a um revenge against a christian nationalist cult with a angelic pregnancy oh jeez
01:28:09
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Yeah, so it it all gets a little strange. But I say, depending upon people's, um you know your individual scare thresholds, there's a different place to start.
01:28:24
Speaker
I'm not sure if I have a link tree for you or not, because I'm going to want to make sure to find those for my own reading pleasure. work um I think it is in our email chain somewhere.
01:28:37
Speaker
Okay, yeah, ill I'll seek it out. Because yeah, my my TBR race list gets pretty long for the show, but there's just so much stuff that I get to be acquainted with that I wouldn't otherwise. So and and we're going to get a short reading from you at the end of the episode, right? do you want to set that up for us?
01:28:58
Speaker
Yes, that is correct. I am going to be reading a short story. This was first published in an anthology by Bag of Bones Press.
01:29:13
Speaker
um It is a story called, oh gosh. I had it in front of me and now I lost it. Um, it is a short story about the, um, Mandela effect, um, in ah a horror version. for those who don't know the Mandela effect is a, um, like psychological thing where you,
01:29:43
Speaker
recall something that no one else seems to recall. um And the big example for that is um people remembering a movie called Shazam starring Sinbad.
01:29:58
Speaker
But it is really called Kazam and star Shaquille O'Neal. right The title is The Absence You Cannot Remember. Okay,
01:30:12
Speaker
cool. Cool. So that that will ah be here after the interview. We're gonna add it and post because I'm magical that way. <unk> So was was there anything that you wanted to talk to that we did not get to?
Motivation Behind The Mentally Oddcast
01:30:28
Speaker
Seems like we covered a lot of great ground, but I want to make sure that we hit all your main points of focus. Yeah, we did a lot for me. um So one thing that i wanted to ask, because I was unfamiliar with this podcast before my publisher sent it along to me.
01:30:49
Speaker
um And I know there's a lot of talk about in the horror space about, you know, like damaged characters and a lot of stuff that happens on the page.
01:31:08
Speaker
So I just wanted to ask what was your inspiration to begin this podcast, really talking to the the actual people behind all of this, like the writers and seeing how, um,
01:31:30
Speaker
because we did talk a little bit about craft, but we talked a lot about personality um and just the way with your inspiration to focus on the people behind these works as opposed to um just like the work itself.
01:31:53
Speaker
um yeah that's that's a great question i think um just to give you a little backstory on me in 2022 i got real sick and i thought i was dying and i was actually dying but i got to the hospital in the nick of time um and i was in uh heart failure and by the time I got better, I mean, I realized that I was going to live.
01:32:20
Speaker
And so I said, all right, you know, I did the the kind of stereotypical, I have a second chance at life, I have to do things. And so I threw myself into a couple different kinds of work. I got a lot more serious about sex writing, which was my day job at the time.
01:32:36
Speaker
um And I took some strides with that. I started Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine, which was going to initially be a way for me to make sure that I was writing a new story every week, a new short.
01:32:50
Speaker
And then i started putting them together and featuring other artists. And before I knew it, it was a whole magazine. And so I was featuring other artists, other authors, and then a cover artist.
01:33:04
Speaker
And I was doing interviews with everybody every week. And one of the things that I noticed was that pretty much everybody, like the people that were sending me the very best work that I enjoyed and that resonated with me the most, were neurodivergent people.
01:33:20
Speaker
and that regardless of the discipline i knew so many people that were using their art as a way to work through their their mental health their emotional health past trauma um maintaining sobriety like all these different things and I said you know This is the kind of thing that more people need to know about because it's hopeful and it's informative and it often can provide actionable tips for people that are are struggling.
01:33:54
Speaker
And it really goes back to what, what we were saying earlier about the world is falling down around you. What can you do? Well, this is a thing I can do. I have a degree in broadcasting and I'm kind of a loud mouth and i know a lot of people. So it's, it's was my hope that by sharing these stories that it would inspire people to, to a greater understanding, to more discussion, to more empathy.
01:34:23
Speaker
Um, And if I do say so myself, I think that it is effective and on a pretty small scale because our listenership is not enormous, but I hear from at least one person about every episode.
01:34:40
Speaker
someone will tell me something that was helpful to them. We had a gentleman on here who's a great writer and a fine person, and he has a stutter and he was really afraid to do a podcast because he's got a stutter.
01:34:54
Speaker
And he did it. You know, he he took that leap and I managed to, you know, I was able to cut it together in a way that did not hide the fact that he had a stutter.
01:35:06
Speaker
But that that made it, I think, a little more comfortable in that way that it can sometimes be uncomfortable to to have a talk with with someone with a stutter. And the episode was barely up for a day. And I heard from a friend of mine saying, you know, my daughter has a stutter and she had that big speech and she didn't want to do it. And I had her listen to this episode. And by the end of it, she could.
01:35:29
Speaker
you know that's so great right because it's so small and it's so simple but it makes a big difference you know and then it turns out that the speech that they were giving they're in medical school which means that that could have you know i mean who knows what that could like you know the the Yeah, it's it's hard to to, even grasp this, the scope of that sort of thing. Like, so I inspired a medical student just by introducing them to my friend. That's really cool.
01:36:06
Speaker
Yeah, so, so that's, that's what I hope to do. and you know, If I can keep doing it and if if I stay alive for another couple of years, who knows, you know, and I can reach more and more people. So that that is the goal. and And just to let people know, like we say at the beginning of the show, whatever you're going through, you're not alone.
01:36:30
Speaker
And you can make art about it because art helps. Even if you're the only person it helps, it still helps. But that's almost never true. When you share your art with people, it you know like we like we said, it it can create just like a chain reaction.
01:36:49
Speaker
no I hope that answers your question. Yeah, that was excellent. yeah Sweet. Well, guess what, man? It's time for the Mad Lib.
01:37:00
Speaker
so I hope you are ready for this. Let's see. We're going to start with some adjectives. I need two, three.
01:37:13
Speaker
Three adjectives. Three adjectives. Let's see. Spiky. Dark.
01:37:24
Speaker
dark wet yeah i'm a writer a horror writer okay i need let's see nouns one two three singular nouns okay um cat tree lamp
01:37:52
Speaker
All right, I need two verbs that end in ing. Two that end ing.
01:38:04
Speaker
Walking and biting. Biting. And let's see person in a room, that is always the guest. A place.
01:38:24
Speaker
Saturn.
01:38:27
Speaker
All right. I need an animal plural.
01:38:36
Speaker
Worms.
01:38:40
Speaker
All right. And a celebrity.
01:38:47
Speaker
John Cena.
01:38:50
Speaker
Nice. And there's another person in room here. So that's me. i need a number. 42. right.
01:39:03
Speaker
right And a plural noun.
01:39:08
Speaker
Plural noun. Cars.
01:39:14
Speaker
And a verb.
01:39:23
Speaker
Okay, so this is called a Morning Person. Are you cheery and spiky at the crack of dawn?
01:39:35
Speaker
Do you leave out of bed early in the morning ready to greet the world with a dazzling cat? As a journalist, you can quickly switch gears from interviewing the ruler of Saturn to quizzing an expert on the effects of global walking on the planet to judging a beauty contest for worms.
01:39:56
Speaker
Then you could be the dark morning show host we're looking for. The number one rent Good Morning Tree, is searching for a co-host to join the current host, T.T.
01:40:11
Speaker
The show combines wet, hard news stories with letter pieces, such as cooking and biting segments, interviews with A-listers like John Cena and Wetness, and fashion tips, such as a Hundred Stylish Ways to Wear a Feathered Lamp.
01:40:29
Speaker
The salary is $42 a year plus a generous allowance for clothing and cars. Are you qualified? Then stomp by today for an application.
01:40:43
Speaker
Yay. That's incredible. I always enjoy the Mad Libs so much. All right. We want to remind our listeners to please find us on Ko-Fi. That's Ko-Fi.
01:40:59
Speaker
Supporting us there is the best way to support the show. And we want to thank TT for being here. And is there anything else you want to say before we go?
01:41:13
Speaker
just that thank you for having me. i had a blast. cool. We'll stay tuned and we'll have a short story coming right up and then we'll see everybody next week.
01:41:24
Speaker
Bye.
Reading of 'The Absence You Can't Remember'
01:41:28
Speaker
And this is called the Absence You Can't Remember. This was originally published in This is Two Tents, an anthology of second-person present horror, published by Bag of Bones Press 2021 and edited Townend.
01:41:45
Speaker
and edited by s j townend
01:41:51
Speaker
You remember things differently than how they actually happened. It's a simple memory, something you think nothing of at first until you try to recall who else was there with you that night in the parking lot watching those 4th of July fireworks.
01:42:07
Speaker
You can. You know there were others and you can rack up three names, but every time you try to pull the fourth, you come up with a blank. You try for something else, some other identifying feature, but it's been so long you can't even remember what he looks like.
01:42:25
Speaker
Come to think of it, you can't even tell if it is a he. All you can glean among the memory of tipsy revelers is a blank, featureless face, an equally blank body, eerily smooth, like an empty video game character creator.
01:42:43
Speaker
like a strip naked action figure standing amongst the crowd. No one else looking at them like they don't notice them. That emptiness, physical, mental, sends a chill through you.
01:42:58
Speaker
The thing in the memory doesn't have eyes, but you can tell it's looking at you through the crowd and the darkness through the memory itself. It lifts a finger to its lips, a finger that's bent and crooked with too many knuckles and a nail that's more claw, and it liplessly shushes you.
01:43:17
Speaker
Forget. And you do for a while.
01:43:23
Speaker
Your memories are once again what they used to be. Your memories are once again wrong. Like the first time, it takes you a little while to notice. It isn't until you're at the bar after work where a single innocuous comment from across the room pulls your attention. I'm telling you, it's Berenstain Bears.
01:43:45
Speaker
Berenstein, like Frankenstein. You perk up, turn towards a conversation you know you've heard before. Know you've had before. and see two college-age guys growing louder and louder, closer and closer to one another.
01:44:03
Speaker
Their beers are sloshing as they're getting more and more heated. But you look past them, interested in their reactions, but not them specifically. Through the crowd, you see it again, the shape.
01:44:17
Speaker
There's a part of you that wants to say this is what or who you saw on the fourth of July, the blank thing that lifted its finger to its lips, but you can't be sure.
01:44:29
Speaker
You remember that memory, but the image of the entity you saw is unclear, just as it is now, as if you're looking at it through some sort of ever shifting prism.
01:44:42
Speaker
It's blonde for a moment, brunette the next, slim, then girthy, none of these things and all of them. You can't see what it looks like only that is there the darkness, the presence.
01:44:59
Speaker
And when you wake up the morning after the bar, an inconvenient but not insurmountable hangover attempting to smother you, you remember the same things, the scene, but not the figure, the what but not the why.
01:45:14
Speaker
Berenstain and Berenstein Each time you try to recall who or what was standing there, your mind hurts. All you can come up with is a vague shape, like you have somehow deleted that memory, and you know something is supposed to be there.
01:45:32
Speaker
You just don't know what.
01:45:35
Speaker
You shoot a couple texts into individual and group chats. Ask your friends which version they remember, Berenstain or Berenstein. Get those who remember always one or the other, but never both.
01:45:50
Speaker
You do a couple searches and come across the same thing. One or the other, never both. Arguments heating up in the comments. Your phone buzzes.
01:46:02
Speaker
Someone in the group chat asks, is this that like that Shazam thing? You don't see who because some gear in your mind suddenly locks into place at the mention of that old movie.
01:46:14
Speaker
and the nostalgia bomb blasts the remainder of the hangover from you. And you remember a childhood of watching and rewatching an old VHS tape, the down now child in the 90s befriending a magical genie played by Sinbad, the comedian.
01:46:31
Speaker
Needing elaboration, you start to type out what's this M thing, but you go to the internet instead and discover, or is it remember Sinbad Shazam is not a real film.
01:46:46
Speaker
What you're thinking of is Cuz Am starring Shaquille O'Neal. The former does not exist, never has, except in your mind, and apparently in the minds of others as well.
01:46:59
Speaker
Other voices on the internet recall this movie, but none can find proof it ever existed. But how can that be? You're so sure of it the memories of watching it on repeat with your friends in elementary school so clear.
01:47:14
Speaker
Or at least they used to be. You search your memory, trying to come up with something tangible from Shazam, a poster, a single frame, anything besides the feeling of the memory, but you cannot.
01:47:31
Speaker
But you do find something. In the place where you thought those memories used to be, there is a darkness, a thick and noticeable absence, a void.
01:47:44
Speaker
The same intangible thing that was there when you tried to remember the night of the fireworks, when you tried to recall which version of the bears really existed, and is there in that absence where you see that shape again, eating.
01:48:01
Speaker
The thing is hunkered down. facing you and it's full and terrible glory. Somehow, you know, it's thinking it doesn't matter that you've seen it. You won't remember this in a few moments.
01:48:13
Speaker
Why not be seen? Why not create another little bit of memory to eat? That's what it's holding you know, a memory, your memory.
01:48:25
Speaker
It's impossible to describe what the memory looks like, but you know how it feels. It's the memory of now, of what just happened, of you discovering these rotten seeds planted in your mind.
01:48:39
Speaker
Berenstain and Berenstein, Shazam and Kazam. And holding that memory is the same shifting creature, the shape that's caused the absences.
01:48:51
Speaker
It is everything and nothing at the same time. a shifting unidentifiable morass of images that's like a visual of every terrible form ever taken.
01:49:02
Speaker
Every horrible thing ever seen that needs to be forgotten. First, it's long and spindly, like it's composed entirely of spider legs.
01:49:13
Speaker
The next tentacles soar out from its back like some kind of twisted cape. One moment it unhinges its jaw, and the next it has no jaw. It's tall, then short, towering, then crouched humanoid, then inconceivably alien.
01:49:33
Speaker
But in every form it takes, you can still sense the same power, the same preternatural sense for it to reach forward into memory. And as it steps forward, reaches out an arm, claw or tentacle towards you.
01:49:49
Speaker
You wonder if you will remember this too, when it's over.