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Guest: Playwright and Author Frank Anthony Polito
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This week Wednes matches wits (and witty barbs) with Frankie--cutest kid in elementary school and award-winning writer with the medal to prove it. We talk about the perils of marketing with Zuckerbots afoot. Wednes learns what a Literary Death Match is, and we both realize we named characters after each other in our debut novels (even though we hadn't talked in decades at the time). We share childhood memories including bullies, therapy, revelations of abuse, and one of us figuring out they were gay--you'll never guess which one. LOL
TW for domestic violence, child abuse, bullying, suicide, and slurs
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Transcript
Introduction to Mentally Oddcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Greetings friends. Thank you for joining us on the Mentally Oddcast where each week our guests regale us with tales of the creative process through the lens of addiction, recovery, mental and emotional health, trauma, treatment, medication, all that there because we believe that no matter what you are going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
Support and Promotions
00:00:31
Speaker
Art helps. Find us on Ko-Fi, that's K-O-F-I, to support the podcast and get all the back issues of Sometimes Hilarious Horror Magazine.
00:00:48
Speaker
You are listening to the Mentally Oddcast. My name is Wednesday, leave Friday. Do find us on Ko-Fi, that's K-O-F-I.
Guest Introduction: Frank Anthony Polito
00:00:57
Speaker
This week we have with us Frank Anthony Polito, who is a Lambda Literary Award winning author and two time literary deathmatch champ. We will definitely talk about that.
00:01:10
Speaker
ah Frankie holds a BA, oh, nope, an MFA in dramatic writing from Carnegie Mellon and a BFA in theater from Wayne State. His published novels include Drama Queers, Lost in the 90s, The Spirit of Detroit, and ah the domestic Partners in Crime Mystery series, which includes, there's a bunch of books in that, Renovated to Death, Rehearsed to Death, and Haunted to Death.
00:01:37
Speaker
Frank grew up in the Detroit suburb of Hazel Park, I know it well, and currently resides in Pleasant Ridge with his partner Craig and their two rescue dogs, Clyde and Jack.
00:01:50
Speaker
Welcome, Frank. Thank you so much for having me, and I'm glad you called me Frankie. yeah I imagine very few people still do that these days.
First Horror Influences
00:02:05
Speaker
No, really? No. Well, my mother, ah my cousin like my cousins, um an aunt who is no longer with us, you know, family, family people, basically anyone who knew me as Frankie ah probably still calls me and I happily accept them doing so.
00:02:29
Speaker
ah Well, all right, then. So we begin the each episode by asking guests to tell us about the first horror movie that they remember seeing. And I honestly have you no idea what yours is.
00:02:43
Speaker
Okay. Well, um,
00:02:47
Speaker
I'm pretty sure it's Friday the 13th, the original. Now, I don't know if that counts as a slasher movie or a horror movie, but when I was 10 years old, it was definitely a horror movie.
00:02:59
Speaker
And oh yeah I was thinking about this um because I have this memory. I know I was in fifth grade. 1980. And I'm pretty sure i saw it on Friday the 13th, Friday, June 13th. However, I looked it up and it said the movie came out in like May.
00:03:20
Speaker
i know I didn't go to see it at a theater. I watched it at home on television by myself because I didn't want anyone else around to see me get scared. And I swear it was Friday the 13th, but that would have only been a month later. And I don't think it would have actually been on television. it didn't.
00:03:37
Speaker
On television, no. I think no. that Not until the next year. That's what I always thought. But I swear I looked it up and we had on subscription television.
00:03:49
Speaker
OK. Well, they would have gotten it much earlier. But then I looked and it said HBO didn't get it until like 1982. anyway, it was Friday the okay And i can tell you, I don't know how much you want me to talk. and and I can go on and on and on. My slogan in life is long story short, and then I talk forever. But I distinctly remember it was fifth grade and the end of fifth grade and the movie came out and we were in this... um
00:04:21
Speaker
like enriched program that they had this woman who would come in once a week and she would take this group of special kids, smart kids. And I can't, honestly can't remember if you were in that group or not. And I don't know if we're going to like disclose the fact that we go way back.
00:04:39
Speaker
40 years, but I don't... It's it's the next question. Okay, I have a really good memory, but I honestly don't remember if you were in that class or not. But anyway, these kids were talking about Friday 13th, Friday the 13th, and they were talking about this scene where this woman was like...
00:04:55
Speaker
i don't know, in a bathroom or something, and she got an axe thrown through the middle of her head. And just hearing that, like, just totally freaked me out. And so when that scene came in the movie, I definitely looked away. Wow.
00:05:10
Speaker
oh Do you remember that scene? I mean... oh totally. Yeah. It's like it's like iconic. um And like they talked about, oh, there was like a picture of it like a still picture. And like i didn't see I hadn't seen it, but like I could just imagine what it looked like. And I could just imagine like her head split open and blood and guts. and you know But having never seen a horror movie, I didn't even know like what the special effects might look like.
00:05:36
Speaker
um And then years later, when I actually got brave enough to watch the scene... I was like, eh, she's got an axe in her head. Well, that's that's the thing. like What you imagine is probably going to be far worse than what is actually depicted.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. i personally that's That's how imaginations work. Yeah, and that's why like horror novels are so freaking scary because your mind... yes Yeah, and I personally think the scene where Kevin Bacon got the arrow through his throat was much gorier than the axe in the head.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, very much so. Especially in hindsight, because we like Kevin Bacon. Yes, yeah. who Who was that axe-headed woman? Right. And where is she now?
00:06:27
Speaker
All right, so now you and I met, I want to say second grade, because that's when my family moved to Hazel Park.
Childhood Reflections and Identity
00:06:34
Speaker
Okay. And yeah like by fourth grade, you were widely considered to be the cutest boy in class. Like all the girls love Frankie. Now, in hindsight, you were also the gayest. So how aware were you of like either or both of those things?
00:06:53
Speaker
Well, i find it interesting that you say that because... i ah I've often thought about the past and I never realized like I was cute until the like fifth grade when I started going to um roller skating at Skate World. And I remember there was this one time I had a, I had like a t-shirt on with like a Dukes of Hazzard shirt.
00:07:23
Speaker
iron-on decal kind of sparkly, glittery type thing on the front. yeah And on the back, I had my name across the top and it was Frankie in black velvet iron-on letters and then the number 88. And I remember a lot of the stupid people in our class um We're like, why do you have the number 88 on the back of your shirt? And I was like, duh, it's the year we graduate. And it was still like eight years away, which when you're 10 years old feels like forever and nobody is probably bothered to do the math.
00:07:55
Speaker
But I remember being at Skate World and like skating and then hearing my name called. and And like, how does somebody know my name? Forgetting that it's on the back of my T-shirt. And then I turned around and there was this like girl and she was like, do you want to stay doubles with me?
00:08:11
Speaker
And like, she was a very cute girl. And I was like, this is interesting. um But going back to fourth grade, um i find it interesting that you say I was the not only the cutest, but the gayest because,
00:08:27
Speaker
um In fourth grade and in elementary school in general, I always thought, and don't know if popular is the right word, but I was like popular and I had friends and I felt like everybody liked me with the exception of of a few bullies, you know, we all have them. But even those, you know, there was the one kid who was like my friend one day and then the next day wanted to beat me up after school at the curly slide, you know. But for the most part, I really felt like when I look back on my life, I felt like I was liked by everyone, admired, looked up to, you know, like I didn't feel like I had really any enemies, especially in in our class, like our grade.
00:09:13
Speaker
And um it wasn't until I got to junior high three years later that I ever even heard the word faggot. and directed at me. So I never like in fourth grade, I never like went around thinking, oh, I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay. um i played football with the boys after school in St. Mary's field.
00:09:38
Speaker
i you know, had a several girlfriends. If you can have a girlfriend when you're nine years old, ah I went, you know, went to the school fair with a girl with, you know, I, I didn't think that I was now I knew that I was, but I didn't feel like anyone else was picking up on it. And if they were, they were not holding it against me and, you know, like, like, you know, using it against me or making fun of me you
00:10:10
Speaker
you know, bullying me as they say nowadays. So I guess my question for you is what made you say that? And like, what was your perception? Okay. I don't, I don't know. Like I'm, I'm concerned about how this will sound in terms of no I want to, I want to know. I really want to know. i'm Like, and I will tell you, like, I've seen pictures of myself at nine years old. I was like,
00:10:36
Speaker
Very pretty. I'll tell you this straight out. I was often mistaken for a girl. I would go to Kmart with my mom and go up to the register and the cashier would say, oh you have such a pretty daughter. And I'd be like, I'm a boy.
00:10:54
Speaker
you know Or what's your name, little girl? And I'd be like, my name is Frankie. and or you know i would say, my name is Frank, because you know I guess Frankie could be like Francis or whatever. But like I was often mistaken for a girl because I was very pretty. um And I know that.
00:11:10
Speaker
And i will say, um to get a little bit real and personal here... I think that at the time i may have had um some gender identity disorder issues, if that's what you want to call them.
00:11:30
Speaker
Because um like, I don't know if you remember in fourth grade, we had to draw self portrait. Dude, okay. It's so weird. I'm interrupting you because- No, please don't. Because I will talk and talk and talk. Well, but that's that's actually the story that I was going to tell, the self-portraits, and how when when you would draw yourself, you would use a lot of the particular flourishes that people use to draw girls.
00:11:59
Speaker
Okay, sure. like i drew this Well, but then after like i noticed that... you started seeing the school counselor and I actually overheard the school counselor talking to, I won't say, but it was a teacher that we would both know. And that the whole gist of that was to, you know, be guys doing guy things.
00:12:23
Speaker
Okay, hold that thought because I want to go back to this picture, to this self to this self-portrait. I remember, i you know, we got out our school photos and we we drew drew what we saw. And I had this red shirt on very late 70s with like the stripes going down the side of the sleeves.
00:12:44
Speaker
And my hair was very blonde and very thin and like, you know Puberty hadn't taken hold yet, and wherever where all hair goes curly or wavy or whatever. I had very thin very, ah what's the word? you know like Not thin, but silky silky, fine blonde hair. And it was cut...
00:13:10
Speaker
Like I found a picture of me years later from that same time period. And I looked and my partner Craig was like, oh, you look like a young Kurt Cobain. Because I had like that late 70s, not shoulder length, long hair, but longer hair. I wanted my hair to like...
00:13:27
Speaker
you know, whatever what was cool. Like it was the disco era. I wanted longer hair. I wanted it to cover my ears and it was longer on my neck, but like not, you know, touching my shoulders or anything, but it was not, it was not like a lot of the other boys who had the backs of their neck shaved by a barber. You know what I mean? Like I went to, my dad took me to like a barber school in Ferndale and I got my hair feathered and i was styled, you know? And so when I drew this portrait of myself,
00:13:55
Speaker
ah And I say this with love because I did not feel, i i don't hold it against her, but our teacher at the time, i remember her saying to me, why do you always draw yourself and make yourself look like a girl?
00:14:11
Speaker
like And I remember her saying that, and in my memory, it was in front of everyone in the entire class. And I was like, this is what I... so I'm just copying the picture. like Because i had my ears, and below my ears, I had like two little flips of blonde hair hanging down, because my hair was wavy, and that's what I had.
00:14:31
Speaker
um That's how I looked. you know It wasn't like there was this picture of this... boy with a buzz cut, and I was drawing this picture of a boy with long blonde hair. I was drawing exactly what I saw. So I don't feel like i was... um seeing myself incorrectly. That was just what I saw and that's what I drew. But back to your comment about the um counselor now, unless there's anything else you want to address about um this self-portrait. Well, I think what's in what's interesting about the the portrait and and people's responses to it
00:15:09
Speaker
may not even be so much that you drew yourself you know quote unquote as a girl but that you weren't put off by the fact that any of it looked girly because as you just pointed out it was just accurate it was accurate to what you saw and so you drew it that way without the typical ah homophobic boy thing of being like, oh, I would never try that because then I'd look like a girl. You know, just just just not having that.
00:15:40
Speaker
i don't want to use the word suspicious because that implies that it's bad, but it it is not the norm, especially where we grew up because it was redneckistan there. It was not a particularly progressive place to to be raised.
00:15:58
Speaker
Well, I will also say that That same year... My father did take me to the Ferndale Barber School and they cut my hair shorter and like feathered it. And it was over, like my ears showed and it was short in the back. But it wasn't like I minded, oh, my hair has been taken away my identity. I thought I looked really cute or good, you know, with a short feathered haircut the same way that I did
00:16:30
Speaker
the other way. and i do remember thinking, i look more boyish now and I'm okay with it. It wasn't like I was, you know, you hear a lot of stories about young trans people who like are forced to look look the way that their gender is and it it kills them. I didn't feel that way at all. You know, like I didn't think like, I'm a girl and now I look like a boy. it was just like, okay, this is different. And I think it actually made me look cuter.
00:17:03
Speaker
But is it because I liked boys and thought boys were cute and then how I liked the way that I looked better? I
Self-Diagnosis and Identity in Writing
00:17:10
Speaker
don't know. um But back to your comment about the school psychologist, um that really, i don't know what the word is, but I do not remember that at all.
00:17:23
Speaker
I have no memory. Like I knew we had a school psychologist um and I knew that other kids would go and, you know, meet with him or whatever. And i always was like, why don't I get to go meet with the school guy, psychologist? Because I knew him and he would actually, um was like the head of our student council. And I was on student council every year, all through six, uh, from first grade to sixth grade when they had student council and I liked him and I'm like, why don't I get to go?
00:17:51
Speaker
um Though, now I'm having like this, I do have a memory though of being in the room. I think it was the learning center room where he had his like little room and being in there. So maybe I did go, but I don't remember like,
00:18:10
Speaker
It was the same room where we went for the hearing tests, which was a totally different thing. But I do remember going, but I don't remember any conversations.
00:18:21
Speaker
And i don't remember being made to feel uncomfortable. Maybe I blocked it out. um So I found it interesting when you said that and...
00:18:36
Speaker
But I will say, because, you know, I'm all over the place. Later, when I was in junior high, i did go meet with the school counselor.
00:18:47
Speaker
But there were other, ah couple other boys, like it was a group, it was a group thing. And I remember thinking, why am I here? I do not belong here because the other boys, and I do have a really good memory, but I don't remember who any of them were.
00:19:02
Speaker
um I just remember they were like the bad kids. And I'm like, what am I doing in a room with the bad kids? And i didn't want to talk about anything that they might want, he the counselor might want us to talk about.
00:19:17
Speaker
It was kind of like the breakfast club, you know, we're all like the wrong kids are forced to be together. and and then when they and they leave, you don't look at each other and you go on your separate ways and, um you know, never, you're you're never going to be friends outside of that room.
00:19:36
Speaker
After, I don't even remember how many sessions there were, but after a few times, I did start to feel a bit more comfortable being around them. But I was never going to like, oh, I like boys. Or yeah like, I was never going to talk about anything personal or private in front of them.
00:19:56
Speaker
it was kind of a waste of time. But that's like the the only counseling thing I remember. Though now I am remembering being in the little room with the Longfellow counselor, but I don't yeah remember yeah like what we talked about or him asking me things like, why do you draw yourself with long hair? You know, so like stuff like that.
00:20:18
Speaker
if if it If it happened, it was once, but if it was a multiple times, then I blocked it out. Well, and I think as as my memory serves, I saw school counselors in and most of the schools that I went to go figure. Um...
00:20:39
Speaker
They often would try to not stage it as counseling. It was like, oh, can you come in? We want to ask you something real quick. you know And then it's 20 minutes of questions and look at these pictures. What do they mean to you? like Yeah. i I mean, because i I thought I was evaluating pictures that they brought me in because I was so smart and they needed help evaluating pictures. Such was my intellectual vanity at the time.
00:21:05
Speaker
So, but you know, there was a bunch of stuff wrong with me and I never got a proper diagnosis. Speaking of which, I am aware that you do not have an official mental health diagnosis, but but i I think people feel different ways about self-diagnosis. I think it's valid. I think we know ourselves better than a doctor is going to know us in a session or two. um so So what did you come up with?
00:21:32
Speaker
What's your diagnosis? Well, you know, like, lately, i don't know how the last how many years, but, you know, there's this word neurodivergent, and all of a sudden, you know, it we used to be like, oh, he's on the spectrum or whatever.
00:21:48
Speaker
i never... thought of myself as that, but then I looked back and like, okay, 20, this is where we can talk about the word.
00:21:59
Speaker
20 years ago, around this time, I started working on my first novel. It's called band fags, um a very dated word going back to the nineteen eighty s if you were in band.
00:22:12
Speaker
no matter who you were, you could be the homecoming king ah who was one of the hottest guys in school and he was in band. um And he was still a band fag, except when you were a when you were a young gay kid and someone called you a band fag, you really only heard the word fag and, you know, it...
00:22:31
Speaker
the band part was secondary. But I started writing my novel and it's very, it's fiction, but it's very autobiographical. Names change to protect the guilty, as I say. And as I was writing this, like I'm pulling out all this info, like,
00:22:48
Speaker
I'm not very good at answering a question. How did you come up with this diagnosis? And then I have to tell you this whole long story. I can remember my seventh grade locker combination. I can tell you my seventh grade schedule in order, who the teachers were, who I sat next to. Things like this, I put into this novel, where we went, what my friends did, what we ate for lunch, who did this, who dated who, what teacher. would And then when my friends read this book or I told them about it, they would be like, how do you remember all that stuff? And I thought,
00:23:19
Speaker
Oh, I thought everybody does. And they were like, no, dude, something is wrong with you. And, you know, like that, I can tell you, I'm pretty sure I saw Friday the 13th on Friday, June 13th, 1980. And I can tell you that I saw the Blue Lagoon um with Brooke Shields and Christopher Atkins on...
00:23:38
Speaker
not the day of the week, but November 4th, 1981, I was in sixth grade. It was on on subscription television at 8 p.m. It was an R-rated movie. I was 11 years old and I didn't care what my mother said. I watched it. Like little, little things like that that you know everybody knows now, like, oh, neurodivergent people do this and do they do that. you know I don't necessarily know walk down the street and count cracks in the sidewalk or whatever, but like I listen to the same music over and over and over. And I used to think it was because, like and it it is partially because, like
00:24:18
Speaker
I want to live the same day over and over in the same way. Like I used to live in New York and I would ride the subway. I was an actor and I would ride the subway to play rehearsal. And the minute I walked out the door, I'd turn on my Walkman on this certain CD.
00:24:33
Speaker
And I would listen to it as I walked to the subway and get on the subway and rode the subway and got off the subway. And, you know, and it was every day was the same thing. And I liked that, you know, so things like that.
00:24:46
Speaker
um And i was always a kid growing up who like never wanted to be weird and never wanted to be friends with weird kids. And which is, i'm mean this with no disrespect, but which is why you and I weren't better friends and we should have been. Cause I was like,
00:25:03
Speaker
you And I was afraid to be like you. And um what was I
Challenges in Writing and Representation
00:25:09
Speaker
trying to say? um i didn't want to be the weird kid, but I looked back and I'm like, you were the freaking weird kid. And that's why people didn't like you and bullied you and called you names because you were a weirdo.
00:25:21
Speaker
And um would I change who i was? I don't think so. Because... You know, with that which kills you and makes you stronger.
00:25:33
Speaker
when When you look back with that much perspective, because obviously we have lots of perspective at this point, and we've watched the people who bullied us become bitter divorced alcoholics whose kids don't like them, um there's there's a little vindication there, I think, seeing how...
00:25:52
Speaker
people who were miserable in school are are often still miserable now. And then a bunch of us weird freaks are like, you know, making movies and putting books together and, you know, following their creative pursuits, but also are happily partnered up, you know, not that that's necessarily a a braggable accomplishment but I'm damn proud of my marriage and and my oh yeah you know relationships so you know i think that time will tell in these situations um yeah I mean like I've enjoyed all the the girls who made fun of me for being fat all being fat now and
00:26:39
Speaker
that's That's been a lot of fun because now they all feel very differently about body shaming than they did school. sure So, yeah, I have ah plenty of petty, bitchy feelings about people that were just, you know, mean for no reason.
00:26:55
Speaker
Like, my mom was violent and insane. i was a fat, clumsy chick with a bunch of undiagnosed shit and an incredibly stupid name that made me stick out like a sore thumb. I didn't need anybody's help to feel bad about myself, but that didn't stop people from making sure I did.
00:27:13
Speaker
yeah And then to find out later that people thought that my mom and I had this great relationship and we were best as buddies and stuff when, you know, she terrorized me until I moved away at 24.
00:27:26
Speaker
four Yeah, 24. Never went back. So, so yeah, I don't know if you even know that, but I haven't talked to my mom since 1994. Yeah. No, i did you did tell me that um after we reconnected. And like you said, I was very surprised because I just have memories of your mother bringing you to school and seeing you with her. And and maybe because i came, so i'm so fortunate that I came from such a loving home that I just assumed everyone else did.
00:27:58
Speaker
um And I'm really really, really sorry to learn that you did not. and well And that's the thing is that she's a sociopath, a narcissistic sociopath. So that's, you know, life is a performance and she would love to go to school and be like the PTA mom, the helping out in the classroom, Girl Scout leader mom. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's all performance. and I just had a flash of you. you're terrifying I just had a flash of you in a Girl Scout uniform.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. Yeah. So moving on. um Okay. So I imagine, and I know a little bit from the sidelines, but your first book, because of the title, was very difficult to market. I know your Facebook group got taken down. ah You know, the Zuckerbots did not like it. did Did you realize that you were taking a big chance when you used a title with a gay slur in it?
00:29:00
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because, okay, so without like taking up too much time, the the the book started as a play. i was living in New York. I was an actor. um And my partner and I, we were in a theater company, and we decided to write our own plays and do a little trip production of original plays. So I started thinking about... And it's weird because I had always... Here I go. I i can't not tell a short story. I had always written...
00:29:30
Speaker
you know, in school. But then once I decided I wanted to be an actor, like that was it. I never like, i didn't really write anymore. And so I was like, I can't. could write a play. Why not? um And my friends, people who knew me, they're like, why don't you write a play about you and your best friend from junior high? You tell us all these funny stories about the things you guys all did together. So why don't you write this, write a play? So I did. I wrote a two-hander play, two characters um about me and my best friend. And at the time, I called the play John R. Because...
00:30:02
Speaker
As we all know, living in Metro east Detroit, we have this street called John R. And it runs through the center of Hazel Park. And in the play, I named my character Jack, um but his real name is John. And I figured, oh, and his middle initial is R. And so it's John R. And then there's a street John R. And I thought I was being clever.
00:30:23
Speaker
um And then after the play was produced, I met this guy who was a filmmaker and I was telling him about it and he wanted to read it and he thought it would make a good movie. And he's like, but I think we need to change the title. Why don't we call it Ban Fags? Exclamation point. And I was like, if you want to make it into a movie and you want to call it, you know, whatever.
00:30:45
Speaker
Okay. And so he thought we should call it Ban Fags because it was a little bit controversial, but more so because it captured the period of the 1980s and who the characters are. So when I proposed or when I told my eventual book editor about it, that was what the title of the play had been changed to. And he didn't bat an eye at it. um He also grew up in the 80s. I don't remember if he was in band or not, but like we didn't see it 20 years ago as like
00:31:19
Speaker
a slur, we saw it as like something fun and like culturally tied to the time period. And then once the book was published, I didn't really get any resistance for the title as much as like at the time mainstream publications weren't reviewing gay fiction regardless.
00:31:40
Speaker
But then yes, two years later, one day my Facebook page for my book was no longer working. And I got this message saying, your Facebook page has been removed because you violated policy, blahyh blah, blah, blah, derogatory word, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I had to like go through all these hoops and um reach out to someone who I knew whose partner actually worked at Facebook to get the page back up. But so what do I do? i just ran with it and I like reached out to the advocate and out and all these gay publications and was like, fan fags, authors, Facebook page taken down due to derogatory slur or something, so whatever. And it got me some publicity and it was all worked out for me.
00:32:26
Speaker
Nice, nice. Yeah, the Zuckerbots, they do not understand context. yeah which Yeah. I'll tell you something that's interesting, though. After this, or around the same time, I did a search on Facebook, and I found one in particular other liked page and that was like using my book cover as their image, and it was like fucking faggots. It was like total, total like homophobic,
00:32:56
Speaker
But like in a jokey way, but still like the fact that they were using my book cover to um as their thing, they like they found it somehow. I thought that was pretty interesting.
00:33:08
Speaker
Huh, that's wild. Then I reported it and I don't know, I guess it got removed, but that was like I said, 16 years ago something. would hope so. because Yeah, I mean, it's it's a lot of their remove, don't remove does not make a lot of sense.
00:33:23
Speaker
Now, speaking of your earlier books, I am aware that you have a character named Tuesday. is Is that so I wouldn't sue you?
00:33:34
Speaker
Well, like I said, I changed the names to protect the guilty, ah but I changed the names of everyone. But I'm not very creative about it And so like your name was Wednesday. And so what I wasn't going to call her Thursday.
00:33:51
Speaker
um So I was like, Tuesday. Everybody knows Tuesday's a name. I loved The Adventures of Dobie Gillis with Tuesday Weld. So her name is Tuesday. But I will tell you, in the first book, Tuesday is there because...
00:34:09
Speaker
I can't remember, you know I wrote it 20 years ago, but I do remember writing a scene about how like, when I was in fourth grade, this girl in my class, Tuesday, and people were so mean to her and they would scream out, whoever, when the teacher left the room, the minute the teacher left the room, so-and-so would say, whoever talks loves loves Tuesday Gunderson.
00:34:30
Speaker
um That was her changed name. See, I'm not very good at changing names. And how it mortified me because I sat there and I didn't do anything.
00:34:44
Speaker
Because I didn't, even though like I just got through telling you how i felt like I was popular and people liked me and I had friends, I still didn't want to like take a chance and defend you or tell so-and-so to shut up or you know stick my nose in to the your business or to because I was a coward and afraid that they would turn on me too.
00:35:10
Speaker
um Because kids suck. And so when I wrote Tuesday in that book, it was like, this is what happened to this other girl and I didn't want it to happen to me. And so then in my second book, Drama Queers, where I expanded the world, i needed more characters and I want and i needed more characters.
00:35:30
Speaker
And i had not, I don't believe I had connected reconnected with you at the time yet. But I sort of I wanted to like, pay Tuesday back and give her like a respectable role and make her part of the friend group and make, and then i and i wrote in how like,
00:35:51
Speaker
She's so cool and so fun. I wish I would have been better friends with her when we were younger, because I do. I did and I do. So it was my way of hopefully... i mean, i didn't turn you into like the homecoming queen or anything, but you were one of the freaks still. but See that you don't. My goodness. But so was i So was I at that point. And to be honest, that book actually... the The me character in that book is the other character. It's not me. It's the best friend who it's all about him accepting his being gay and accepting being friends with the freaks and doing all of the things that I wish I would have been strong enough and brave enough to do in high school that I did not.
00:36:38
Speaker
So yeah, I didn't want you to sue me. I didn't want you to sue me. And I will tell you, I will tell you just because i feel like we have unlimited time. There was another girl, there was another girl who shall remain nameless. And i will say she has since passed, um which was very sad to learn. um But I wrote a character. and didn't even write a character. I referenced a character who had a name that,
00:37:07
Speaker
that was very close to her name. And I got this nasty, and this woman, I consider her a friend. I thought we were friends. I got a nasty,
00:37:19
Speaker
Facebook message from her saying, somebody told me that you wrote in your book, Ban Fags, that I went behind the bleachers with the boys and, you know, had sex with boys or blew them or them, you know, gave them a hand job or whatever. And I can't believe you would write something like that about me.
00:37:40
Speaker
And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I did not write that about you. I wrote that, you know, it's made up. And I'm sorry if you thought it was you. But the part that got me was she said, somebody told me. She didn't even like read the book herself. She just got it from someone else. But that really like hurt my feelings because I was so conscious as I wrote my books of...
00:38:09
Speaker
not writing anything negative about anyone. and if I did, i made sure that like, cause there's this one character and I, to this day,
00:38:22
Speaker
I based it on someone we both knew. And to this day, i i i i picked a name so not like his real name because I didn't want people to know who he is because i'm I believe in respecting people's business and privacy and past. And my intention was, you know, never to hurt anybody just to like tell the story as as it needed to be told.
00:38:50
Speaker
Right. Well, that I mean, that makes total sense to
Importance of Diverse Representation
00:38:53
Speaker
me. i don't think you've read my first book, but my debut novel, A Stabbing for Sadie, is is my Mary Sue. That's like the loose version of my life with most of the names changed. But it's a horror book because it's my life.
00:39:09
Speaker
And there is a character named Frankie in it. There is. and And Frankie actually comes back in another novel, like two books later that isn't even, you know, my horror books are not interconnected, but I'm in all of them. I make an appearance. and and And then, yeah, Frankie is also in the zombie book because they like, the main characters are like trying to get to a place. And when they get to the place, it's like, wait a minute, what the hell are you doing here?
00:39:38
Speaker
So it's kind of fun in that way. And don't you feel like, I mean, I feel like, and I'm not like patting myself on the back, but I feel like, Like there were people who came up to me and were like, am I in your book? Am I in your book? And I'm like, no, because you didn't make a big enough impact in my life that I would want to write about you. I didn't say that to them, of course. But the fact that like, I didn't want to be like, you should be honored that I put you in my book. It's like, no, I liked you. i respect our our friendship. I value you to this day, 20 years later, that I want to put you in the story.
00:40:18
Speaker
you know And so the fact that you're telling me that you, even if it's not me in your story, the fact that you use my name tells me that I made a significant impact in your life. And that that makes me very grateful to know.
00:40:33
Speaker
Well, yeah. and And it's interesting because it's not really based on you necessarily. It's it's the name. And I just, I always thought it was it worked because it's a good boyfriend name.
00:40:48
Speaker
You know, that you could I could always picture like the the happy teenage girl that comes home and is like, oh, Frankie called. Yay. And just that that's always how that name resonated with me, probably because you were cute, Frankie that everybody adored.
00:41:06
Speaker
I appreciate that because after sixth grade, things got dark. Well, yeah. I mean, well, and the thing is that um when I was writing, and I imagine this is true for you as well, we didn't know Facebook was coming.
00:41:25
Speaker
We didn't know that there was going to be a time when we would just casually be commenting on what our second grade classmates had for dinner. You know, that that part of society, like we didn't, it's like, well, what if we were less honest?
00:41:39
Speaker
What if we'd been like lying to everyone in our current life about what we were like in school? And then suddenly all these people show up and are like, dude, you were not athletic. What are you even talking about?
00:41:52
Speaker
So yeah I always wonder about that Because there are people like that Who were just You know Like Guys that take those ridiculous Pictures where they're holding guns On their daughter's prom dates um are always like they were the worst, meanest, most womanizing, disrespectful people in school.
00:42:17
Speaker
yeah they're like, oh, so you're doing that because you don't want anyone to treat your daughter the way that you treated people. We all knew you then. We can see through it. You don't love Jesus as much as you're telling people you always have.
00:42:32
Speaker
Just say it. Well, I don't know. I mean, i don't want to get off on the tangent of bullies, but I don't know how you feel about your bullies um from your past, but...
00:42:46
Speaker
I have, you know, since I've been to the class reunions, I went to the 20th, which was when my book, my first book came out. And I had um guys come up to me who I had literally never spoken to before, um who I would consider like bullies to me. But the thing about my bullying experience I was never like you know beat up and or shoved in a locker. i always use shoved in a locker because that's a classic high school movie bullying tactic. But like i was just I was just ignored.
00:43:23
Speaker
And to me, being ignored hurt more than you know being called faggot or... you know, being tripped or having a kick me sign stuck on my back or whatever, being ignored. I hated it. I wanted to be liked. I wanted to be popular. I wanted my high school experience to be like a movie, you know, like where I, where everybody went to parties and everybody liked every, you know, and I, and it wasn't, but I was, was,
00:43:56
Speaker
It wasn't terrible, but it
Reflections on Bullying and Reunions
00:43:58
Speaker
wasn't great. So then at the class reunions, people would come up to me and be like, oh, I heard you wrote a book. and that's great. And we're so proud of you. And I had this one guy come up to me and he was like,
00:44:08
Speaker
was I a dick to you in high school? And he was actually one of the few guys who was not a dick to me in high school. And I was surprised that he couldn't remember that. um And I was like, no, never. And he was like, oh, good, because if I was, I just want to apologize. Then there was another guy I remember who was was kind of a dick to me. And he said something like, oh, I was such a dick to you. And I was like, oh, no, you weren't. He was like, oh, yes, I was. So at least he was aware. And my point I'm trying to say is like,
00:44:39
Speaker
I don't know if like forgive is the right word, but like, I don't hold it against those people now for what they did or didn't do. I, it makes me feel good that they are proud of me now because better late than never, I guess. I don't know. I don't hold it against them. Um, I just don't, I, I, I can't, um,
00:45:06
Speaker
Well, that's that's commendable because I'll say that I'm of two minds about it. Now, some of my bullies have contacted me as adults and acknowledged what they did and apologized.
00:45:18
Speaker
And when that happens, I am perfectly happy to say that's kid stuff. I'm not mad anymore, you know, because it's not like I walk around ruminating about what people said to me when I was 10 or 12 or 15 or whatever, you know, I'm just not.
00:45:36
Speaker
Plus, there was nothing that was happening to me at home that the bullies were making worse, you know? Like, I would rather hang around with high school bullies all day long than to go home.
00:45:49
Speaker
so and and and And don't you think, like, i also think, like, where did they learn it from? Oh, yeah. I'm assuming they learned it from their parents or their fathers yeah throwing around yeah the word, you know, don't be a little fag or whatever. Or so because that was the thing, too, like the boys in sixth grade, we were talking about fourth earlier, but like I just always go back to sixth grade in the boys in sixth grade were my friends. And then when we got to seventh grade,
00:46:17
Speaker
all of a sudden something changed and they weren't not my friends anymore, but like, it was just different. The law the boys from our elementary school, like who had known me since I was in kindergarten,
00:46:33
Speaker
We kind of went a different way, so we weren't friends regardless. It wasn't like, though, that they just switched and were like all of a sudden against me like everyone else was. But I was just like, why did all these guys I knew from age 5 to 11 have no problem with me? And then all of a sudden I got to a new school, a new age, and...
00:46:54
Speaker
something changed. And I want to tell you, i think this is part of it. I was still at 12, very pretty, very cute. And I'm wondering how many of those guys saw me for the first time and thought I was a girl and thought I was cute. And then when they learned that I wasn't, then then what was wrong with them for thinking I was? And then now i they had to cut me down.
00:47:21
Speaker
Well, I'm sure that's the case for at least some of them. yeah I wouldn't care to speculate on who, but that's that's the thing about bullies is a lot of it is internalized. you know I mean, depressed people, some people turn it inward, some people turn it outward.
00:47:39
Speaker
um I will say, though, that when former bullies contact me on Facebook or elsewhere and pretend that they always thought I was cool and that we were always good friends and they don't acknowledge shit, because there are people that have done absolutely vile things to me or started just terrible rumors. Yeah.
00:48:05
Speaker
That, you know, they act like it was nothing. They act like it didn't happen, like they don't remember it. You know, it always reminds me of Mitt Romney because Mitt Romney in high school, him and some of his buddies held a kid down and cut his hair.
00:48:20
Speaker
And that it was part of a pattern of bullying that eventually led to this kid killing killing himself. And when they asked Middington about it when he was running for president, he didn't even remember the incident.
00:48:34
Speaker
Now, he could very well have been lying, but it's honestly worse to say you didn't remember traumatizing someone. Yeah. Now, speaking of sociopolitics, I mean, sociopolitics are angrier. They're getting more violent. um What advice do you have for gay kids that are growing up someplace really red?
LGBTQ+ Youth Challenges in Conservative Areas
00:48:58
Speaker
You know, I thought about that and... I really don't know because like I just know like for me personally at that time, i just knew like, I just have to get through this.
00:49:13
Speaker
um And it's so easy to just say that and to get through it, but you know, not to like be whatever, whatever, and be like, oh, it gets better, but it does get better. But I feel like you have to stand up for yourself and,
00:49:33
Speaker
don't do what I did and do nothing, you know, but you have to be realistic and like, be careful, especially if you're somewhere that's very red and very rural and very not safe because, you know, bad stuff still happens and you don't want to end up getting killed. Like seriously.
00:49:54
Speaker
um, I don't know. I'd like to think that it's not bad anymore, but I'm kind of naive and, you know, I'm sure it still is.
00:50:06
Speaker
um
00:50:09
Speaker
I don't know. I really don't know. That's like such a, that's like such a, I would not want to be a kid today. It was hard enough back then. yeah i like to think it's different now.
00:50:21
Speaker
Um, Visibility and willing grace and glee and things like that. you know There are resources now that were not available to, like, there was no internet.
00:50:32
Speaker
The first time that I learned, like, I was in my late 20s when I realized that there were guys who preferred fat chicks to skinny chicks. And on the internet, that information is readily available.
00:50:47
Speaker
yeah you You only have to show up fat on the internet for a few minutes before people will come out of the woodwork to let you know that both legitimate romantic pursuers and lots and lots of fetishists are there, which is a little bit off the point. The point being that it is much more, ah it's much easier to find community on the internet than it it was when you had to do it in real life, when you had to physically go to a place where people were congregating to to discuss issues. So I think that works to people's advantage, to people's advantage but also your point about representation.
00:51:29
Speaker
um Because a lot of people feel like representation is always forced, that it's some kind of agenda. And I would say that the people that are against diverse representation in media feel that way because they've never had it.
00:51:45
Speaker
So of course it feels forced and labored when all you've seen on TV, you know, aside from tokenism, like everybody's straight, everybody's white, everybody's thin, everybody's coupled up, everybody is, you know, whatever the main religion is. And and ah so then it it feels political when other people are there or there's this dichotomy between like, Right.
00:52:12
Speaker
which means the gay person isn't just the best friend who lives next door this is a black show which means the family in question is black and and the neighbors are white not the other way around you know right And i I mean, it's better to have representation than to not have it, I would think. But at the same time, you know, making sure there's a ah black show that exists is not necessarily the same as just making shows for everyone that have a diverse cast.
00:52:45
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and that's why I started writing the stories that I write, because when I wrote the play version of my first novel, i remember thinking as an actor, what kind of play would I want to be in?
00:53:02
Speaker
Because, you know, this was 2000 and even the late 90s when I was in New York as an actor, I did a gay play festival and an agent came and he wanted to work with me. And then the first thing he said to me is, I'm not going to and he was gay, I'm not going to send you to an audition and you're going to get on your gay soapbox, are you?
00:53:20
Speaker
Because it was like, you know, Will and Grace had just started and you couldn't be gay. And and i'm like, but as a writer, i can write gay stories and I can find gay readership and tell the stories that I didn't ever get to read about when I was a kid. And so that's and how I'm trying to like pay it forward, I guess, or backward and give the kids today and over the last 20 years, readers, this kinds of stories that nobody gave me.
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that that's what makes for some of the best reading, some of the best cinema, are the people that are bringing you things that they wish they had had when they were a kid.
00:54:03
Speaker
Now, the thing that I most wish that I had had when I was a kid, honestly, Kung Fu Panda. i think I think that Kung Fu Panda would have changed my life as a kid. Maybe not, because you know but the idea that like you can be a big fat ass and still be awesome at something, even physical things, never what occurred to me as a kid.
00:54:30
Speaker
I had to take dance lessons and I was awkward and clumsy and self-conscious. And I think that kind of representation would have made such a huge difference. I think seeing gay people being happy in any kind of media as a kid, not played as the joke, but as a regular person with a happy life and a relationship that wasn't constantly under threat.
00:54:56
Speaker
You know, that would have been amazing for kids to see. And we barely see it now. You know, like, we can name examples of it. But if you tried to name every straight couple on TV, it would take you all day. Like the fact that we can name a handful of examples is a step in the right direction.
00:55:16
Speaker
but Diversity of representation. i mean, we need to get to a point where nothing even seems like that anymore because it just reflects what the world is. Yeah.
00:55:32
Speaker
But I don't know that we'll get there because I mean, at the same time. People, you know, there's that dichotomy of saying, write what you know, tell stories that that you understand, that you've lived, write to places that you've been, that you know about, you know.
00:55:49
Speaker
But at the same time, if certain people aren't getting representation... what do we do about that? Are we obligated to write on behalf of groups that don't have representation? Or is the point that we should be helping other people be published so that the the world of publishing and the world of, you know, TV writing and directing so that that is also more diverse? Like, it's hard to know how to come at that and what your individual responsibility as and as an artist.
00:56:20
Speaker
what What is your take on that? Well, geez, I don't know if going to answer your question correctly, but like, you know, as there's this whole thing about like own voices. We want own voices. We want own voices, um which for anyone who doesn't know what to own voices is, it's like stories written by the people who are the people that they're writing about. And I think that's great and I'm all for it.
00:56:44
Speaker
But, you know, I wrote a screenplay about a trans girl and I'm not a trans girl and I'm not a trans high school girl, but I know that if I tried to adapt that screenplay into a novel, somebody would look at me and say, you can't write this book because you're not a you're not a trans girl, to which I would say, or you're not trans, to which I would say, I'm also not 17. But I feel like I should be able to write the story that I want to tell.
00:57:15
Speaker
um Or like, why can I write a character of a black drag queen, but I can't write a story as the black drag queen because I'm not black? You know, like, why?
00:57:27
Speaker
um i feel like if you can authentically represent the character, you know, if you don't know, you do research, you talk to people. Yeah. Don't tell me.
00:57:39
Speaker
That's like telling me I can't write a Hallmark movie about a straight couple because I'm not one, you know? So it just gets really, and then like the whole heated rivalry, it's written by a woman who I think might be bisexual, but still she's a woman. So why is she allowed to write this gay and mm romance and several gay and mm romances that apparently everyone's reading in our huge bestsellers now and i will tell you i watched the movies and i read the first and i read the first book and now i'm reading the the second one like it's just a good story so she wants to tell it and who am i to say she can't but i feel like i could tell it better i don't know maybe
00:58:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there are so many lines to consider in in that whole issue. Because, i mean, if we're using the logic that we can only write about people that are like us, I couldn't write about any men.
00:58:42
Speaker
Which is going to make it hard to put serial killer stories together, let me tell you. Because that's who's out there killing serials. It's men. Yeah. um
00:58:54
Speaker
Yeah. So so your your follow-up to band the the band book is Drama Queers. Yes. and I can say that one. um And that one won some awards.
00:59:07
Speaker
Tell us about that.
Literary Achievements and Recognition
00:59:09
Speaker
It won the Lambda Literary Award for Best Gay Romance of 2009. It came out in 2009. I the award in 2010. And will say that...
00:59:22
Speaker
The first book was submitted for a Lambda Literary Award and was not did not even make the finals. And it devastated me because i that when the first book came out, I got all of this publicity in what gay media there was. And there was this like gay book of the month club and it was voted the best...
00:59:44
Speaker
fiction for that year from the readers of this gay book club. And i heard things like, it was the most read book of the summer and by the gays and blah, blah, blah. So I figured, oh, well, it's going to be a shoo-in for a Lambda Literary Award. And then it didn't even get nominated. So when the second book came out, i told my publisher, I said,
01:00:05
Speaker
you know i i assume you're going to submit me, but please submit me in the romance category um because the central story of the book, there's a romance. you know He meets a cute young boy and they have a romance. and then But I also knew like there will be less less um submissions in the romance category. So I'm sure that all of the other authors who submitted in the romance category and wrote actual true submissions romances probably hated me, but why do I care? The the the award is sitting, i don't know if you call it a trophy, but don't know you call it. um It's a plexiglass thing with carved my name and the book title on it. um
01:00:51
Speaker
Sitting on my fireplace shelf. I got it. So who cares what anyone else thinks? But that felt really good. That felt really good to like, You know, because I went to the ceremony um in New York. i was living there where I met Stephanie Powers.
01:01:07
Speaker
Oh, wow. Of Heart to Heart. Yeah. Because she was there for some inexplicable reason. I can't remember which. Some friend of hers, some gay friend of hers was there and she was with him. And I shamelessly went over and...
01:01:23
Speaker
told her how when I was 17, trying not to be a little a young gay boy, i found out she was coming to the Sears at Oakland Mall to promote her new clothing line. and drove up there as quickly as my 1980, 79 green Dodge Omni would take me to see Miss Stephanie Powers. And there's me and like a sea of housewives.
01:01:48
Speaker
um Anyway, so I got the award and I literally went in thinking I'm not going to win the award because I never win anything. And then they called my name and I had to go up and give a speech.
01:01:58
Speaker
which I had not prepared. I did not pull out. whats um oh Because I, I just, you know, spoke from my heart and said what I felt. And, um and, ah and I don't think I've won anything again ever since, but Hey, you know, I got the one and that's more than a lot of people can say.
01:02:18
Speaker
Wow. Okay. So what is literary death match? Okay, so Literary Deathmatch is this like international, I'll call it a competition. um And I first heard about it in New York when somebody just reached out to me and was like, hey, we're having the first Literary Deathmatch Pride edition, and we're wondering if you would like to participate.
01:02:47
Speaker
And I'm like, twist my arm, flattery will get you everywhere. And I went to this event and I will say it was very sad because we got there, me and my partner and this guy we were friends with at the time and living with, but um that's a whole other story. But um not monogamous, that's not the word.
01:03:08
Speaker
Just friends, not it was and it wasn't anything like, Platonic is the word you're looking Platonically, yes. Platonic friend. He had money. He wanted to live in a nice duplex and needed roommate wanted roommates.
01:03:21
Speaker
He could totally have lived alone, but he liked living with people. Strangely enough, he invited us to come live with him. We go to this event. There's literally like three people there.
01:03:32
Speaker
And I don't remember why, if like nobody heard about it or it was some other pride thing was happening. There was hardly anyone there. But anyway, so in the literary death match, there are, starts with four authors And they think you like two and two, you read an excerpt from your novel. There are judges.
01:03:56
Speaker
um and then they pick one winner from each round. And then they pitch you against each other in like, I don't know, some kind of like questions. I don't even know if I can explain it. It has nothing to do with the writing. It's just, you know, like a...
01:04:14
Speaker
I don't even remember. like I have a really great memory, but I don't remember what any of the questions are. They pitch you against each other. There might be like audience participation. You can phone a friend. I don't remember. But then someone eventually gets crowned the literary deathmatch champion. Now there's a garbage truck pulling up outside my house and my dog might go ballistic any second. I'm just warning you. um And you win and you get this like little...
01:04:37
Speaker
tin metal that you can or cannot wear around your neck that says literary deathmatch champ on it. And so I did the one in New York at the pride event and being an actor, i read a chapter from drama queers in which the main character who's 17 is performing at an amateur drag night. Um, and
01:05:01
Speaker
singing because he doesn't realize um that drag queens lip sync because he's young and naive. The theme from Ice Castles, Through the Eyes of Love by Melissa Manchester, while wearing a, like, bodysuit and tights and ice skates.
01:05:22
Speaker
Now, I didn't get get dressed up, of course, but, like, when I... The other actor, they get up and they read their... their piece And I remember, I think I intentionally like made it so I would go forth.
01:05:33
Speaker
um the two The two went, and then they picked one, and then it was me and the other one. And they just read theirs and read theirs, and then the third one read theirs. And then I, being an actor, being a drama queer, acted mine out. And I like moved around the stage and... like got up on my tiptoes and did a, you know, a triple sal cow or whatever, like just brought the story to life. And of course, unanimously, I was voted the winner. And then somehow I managed to win the second round and was crowned the literary death match champ. So then a few years ago in Detroit, or I should say a few years ago, while I was living in Detroit, I actually met the literary death match organizer,
01:06:19
Speaker
while taking a screenwriting class through Sundance, total sidebar. But he was like, oh, you were in the Literary Deathmatch. I'm actually one of the Literary Deathmatch creators. And so we, you know, became friendly. And then when they came to de Detroit for the first time a few years ago, he asked me if I wanted to be in it. So I went and it was at the Old Miami and it was four authors and two and two. And they did the first two. And then they, you know, I don't know how, but I was able to... um go forth and watch the two read their' from their books and watch the other one read from the book. And then I read from my book, Renovated to Death, a scene in which um the main character and his partner discover a dead possum underneath the back porch and they have to like put on a hazmat suit and go underneath and with a shovel and find this...
01:07:10
Speaker
dead possum. And I acted the whole thing out and I crouched down and I crawled around and I, you know, pantomimed the thing and did this. And then I think at the end, I like jumped off the stage and did a toe touch, which had nothing to do with the story and pulled my hamstring and whatever. But of course I was unanimously declared the winner of that round. And then somehow I pulled it off and won the second round as well. And then I was given a little tin metal on a red, white, and blue strap and that I can or cannot wear around my neck when I go to author events.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, so that was that. And, you know, it's just a lot of a lot of so silly fun. And the the judges, um there was a guy ah Jimmy Doom, I think was his name, who's kind of like a big Detroit...
01:08:08
Speaker
person who I will admit that I had never heard of. i think he's like an actor. I'm surprised his name isn't ringing a bell to you because he might do things that you might be aware of.
01:08:21
Speaker
but um But he came up to me and the on the break and I remember him telling me, And he's like this, like so I don't know, 60s, kind of grizzly, like the kind of person that I would see and think, oh God, he's going to know I'm gay and he's just going to be you know so mean to me. And he was like, dude, I just wanted to tell you...
01:08:43
Speaker
When your first book came out, my wife was literally dying. She had cancer and she was dying. And I read your book to her every night sitting by her bedside. And she just thought it was the funniest thing ever. Now, I wanted to be like, how the hell did you ever even hear about my book? Because I'm a nobody. Yeah.
01:09:06
Speaker
But he told me that and like, i almost started crying. So it was very cool and it was very fun. And the literary death match champ and award and $1.50 will get me a bus ride down to Tiger Stadium, which doesn't even exist anymore. I don't don't know why I said Tiger Stadium, but you know, like it's nothing, but it means a lot to me.
01:09:31
Speaker
And it sounds cool. I'm the literary death match champ of Detroit. The first the first and only. um Until, you know, the next time. Wow.
01:09:43
Speaker
That's kind of awesome. Yeah, it was fun. And did show up people did show up to the Detroit one. It wasn't just me and my partner and our platonic roommate. There were actual people there and they were drinking and it was in the backyard of the old Miami and it was super, super fun on a warm summer's night. And i had friends come and cheer me on and it was really exciting.
01:10:05
Speaker
Cool. Now, I want to get a little more serious if we can, because you indicated a willingness to talk about a time when you were in legitimate fear for your life.
Facing Hostility and Violence
01:10:17
Speaker
So what is it that you'd like to share?
01:10:20
Speaker
Well, I don't know. Like, I'm never serious about anything. And I will try to, i mean, this was a serious thing. it's not like, I won't say it wasn't serious. But um in the early 90s, I think it was actually 1990. It could have been 91. usually remember. I think it was 91, actually. No, it was definitely 91.
01:10:43
Speaker
January 91, you know, here in Detroit, when you're not 21 yet, you and your friends, you go to Canada because you can go to bars and you can drink. And we had been going to this bar um in Windsor, which no longer exists. It was called Changes with a Z. And I believe the real name was Changes by Night ah in Windsor. And we started going there in like the fall of 89 when I was 19.
01:11:09
Speaker
and going to Wayne State and me and my friends. And when I started going there, the first time I went there, i went with my partner and I went with a girl that we went to high school with who I won't name, but she was a very popular preppy cheerleader. and I wore...
01:11:26
Speaker
a sweatshirt that had the Eiffel Tower on it. I think it had a red, white, and blue flag. And it said Paris. And I wore penny loafers and I wore shorts.
01:11:37
Speaker
And when I walked into this club, everybody else was wearing like black leather jackets and black t-shirts and black jeans and motorcycle boots. And the guys had earrings and they had like 50s pompadours. And it was very alternative. And so cut to...
01:11:54
Speaker
January of 1991, go with my partner, Craig, um my gay best friend from high school, another straight friend from high school and ah another friend from college who was the designated driver because he didn't drink.
01:12:10
Speaker
And I went in that night and my hair, i had like, it wasn't like long, but it was like, I wanted that 1990s flippy bang kind of hangs in your eye, kind of short in the back, kind of like a kit, one of the guys from Twin Peaks.
01:12:29
Speaker
um And I had this black headband that was maybe like, i don't know, two inches thick and wide And I like put this headband on my, around my head and sort of poofed up the front of my hair so that it would make the hair sort of fall. And I thought I looked very cool. And at this point I had my ear pierced and i had a leather jacket and I wore Sears Die Hard shoes, which weighed like five pounds each with steel toes. And like I had a total transformation from the first night that I walked into this bar.
01:13:03
Speaker
And when we first got there, there were some guys and, you know, we're drinking beers are $3.05 Canadian, or maybe that was the, I think that was the Canadian price. So we're paying like less than $3. And I probably had three or four because, you know, I'm 19 or whatever. And I remember there was this guy and in my mind's eye, he's a little cloudy because I was drunk, but he was cute.
01:13:25
Speaker
And maybe I looked at him and smiled or whatever. And then he's like, nice headband, you fucking fag, or something like that. Clearly, he was not impressed with my look. And i think, you know, my friend from high school who's straight, because it wasn't a gay bar, it was a, you know, regular bar, was drunk and he heard the guy and he called something back to him and said something back. And we just went about our business and...
01:13:56
Speaker
moved away because the way I avoid deal with bullies is I avoid them and I just take myself away. So cut to one o'clock, the ugly lights come on and they kick us out. And we start walking out of the bar and all of a sudden there's the guy, but he's got like five of his friends who are all taller than he is. Taller than he is, which is taller than me because I'm five foot seven.
01:14:18
Speaker
ah But in the diehards, I might've been five foot eight because they had a heel. Anyway, they're there and I don't remember what they're saying, but you know, you fucking fag, whatever. Um, And they we just start walking to my friend's car and then they start following us and saying stuff. And then i get shoved from like the back And, you know, it breaks out into, I'll call it a fight, but like never been in one in my life, never thrown a punch in my life.
01:14:50
Speaker
I don't even know, like I'm swinging at air. um And then my partner, Craig, who who at the time, the straight best friend doesn't know is my partner because he doesn't know he and i are are gay um because we hadn't come out to him yet.
01:15:07
Speaker
My partner, Craig, gets kicked in the face. His lip lower lip is split open. Meanwhile, the guy, the one who you know probably thought I was cute and couldn't handle it, is just standing there watching while all of his friends are like beating us up or attempting to beat us up. Yeah.
01:15:28
Speaker
my partner Craig gets kicked in the face and his lip gets split open and there's blood everywhere. And we basically just in our drunken stupor, get to my other friend's car and drive away and get get to the ambassador bridge. And then they're like, citizenship, citizenship, you in the back with your bloody, with your hand to your bloody lips, citizenship, you know, and we get back to the United States and then we end up in an emergency room for hours and hours. But,
01:15:56
Speaker
So like, did I think I was in in fear for my life? Not really. But there was that moment where like, oh shoot, this is happening. This isn't the like an elementary school where the bully threatens me. And then I walked the opposite way home and get away from him because he's too stupid.
01:16:14
Speaker
This was really happening. You know, I do remember, I think I got hit in the face because I remember like my cheek hurt, but I just remember like, I don't know what to do. And I like, tried to punch and probably, you know, missed. And it was probably totally comedic and silly and ridiculous at the time, but, or if we were watching it, but I do remember like, oh shit, this is like, this, this, this could get dangerous, but you know, luckily my, my one friend who drove the car was sober and
01:16:47
Speaker
and got us all out of there. And then my partner had to get stitches in his lip. And then the sad part of it all is he looked really hot afterward with this swollen up lip, like a real bad boy. And like I took pictures of him in his leather jacket. And like people at school were like, oh you you look kind of hot with your lip all busted up.
01:17:10
Speaker
um So... Worked out for me. i got I was pretty much unscathed. But um it did it was scary because there's that moment where you just think like, because you see movies, you know, and you know how it plays out in the movies and everything ends up okay. And the there was that one moment of panic of like, oh, what if this doesn't, you know?
01:17:32
Speaker
So again, i guess I trust and give people the benefit of the doubt that they're literally not going to kill us, but... Well, but that's the thing. like People like that might as well be Nazis. you know If you're going to go around beating up a stranger because of something that you're imagining that they do in their private life...
01:17:52
Speaker
that you can't be reasoned with. You're not a reasonable person. You're a dangerous person. So dangerous people are scary, you know? Yeah. That's, yeah, I find that terrifying. So I want to lighten it up a little bit. Now I know that you have rescue dogs, Clyde and Jack tell us everything.
Adopting Rescue Dogs and Inspirations
01:18:13
Speaker
Oh, I could go on and on and on. And I know we're, where we've been talking for a long time, but yeah, we have two rescue dogs, Clyde and Jack. Clyde is a Beagle pit bull mix. And um we got him about, i don't know.
01:18:30
Speaker
When we moved it back to Detroit and, like August of 2013, and we had talked about getting a dog, and i became obsessed with Pet Finder and looking at dogs and looking at dogs and looking at dogs. And then we found I found this image of this cute little, and we said we wanted a Jack Russell because, I don't know, I got it into my head I wanted to Jack Russell. So I found this picture of this little white dog with these brown markings who looked like a Jack Russell, but according to the...
01:18:58
Speaker
thing, he was a beagle mix. and um But we found this picture of this sad little pathetic looking dog, like, i don't know, five months old, looking at the camera, and just so sad these brown eyes. And he has like this brown...
01:19:16
Speaker
like half moon shaped patch over one eye. And then the other side, and then this nose is white. And then the other side, he's got like this brown on the ears and then this totally white body and and wearing this red little puffy coat.
01:19:31
Speaker
And I told Craig, oh my God, I found the perfect dog. His name is Clyde, blah, blah, blah. And Craig was awake because he works out of he was working out of town at the time. And then all of a sudden, Clyde disappeared from the pet finder and I was devastated.
01:19:44
Speaker
And so then I looked for other dogs and looked for other dogs. And then all of a sudden, don't know, a month or so later, Clyde reappeared on the pet finder. So we went to the pet store to see him. And he was in this cage just looking so sad, laying there. And he like let out a sigh. And I didn't want to get too close. And I didn't want to like even try to attempt to pet him. And I didn't want to like, other people were like, can we take him out of the cage and take him for a walk? Or can we hold him? And like, I was like, I don't want to.
01:20:15
Speaker
get attached because here's me with my internalized homophobia thinking they're not going to give a dog to a gay couple. I don't know why Wednesday, but I just assume everybody I meet is going to not like me or be against me because they're going to know I'm gay.
01:20:33
Speaker
And why am I stuck in that mentality? Like, you know, like I like to think it didn't traumatize me, but obviously it did. Long story short, we adopted Clyde.
01:20:46
Speaker
um And then two years later, over the course, we were like, oh, we should get a second dog. We should get a second dog. And or I was like, we should get a second dog. We should get a second dog. And Craig was like, I don't know. Maybe we should just have the one And I would look and I would look. And we took Clyde to meet a few dogs and they didn't really get along that great. And then one night,
01:21:08
Speaker
It was January 31st, 2016, Sunday. i This is my neurodivergence. I was at my mother's house visiting and we were watching Grease Live on Fox.
01:21:22
Speaker
And my mother said and during the commercial break, did you see the picture of the cute little dog I um i posted on Facebook? I was like, no, if I could count the number of times my mother says Facebook, if it was a drinking game, I would be drunk. like yeah I would be wasted. But did you see the picture of the cute little dog posted on Facebook? His owner died It's your uncle Tim's.
01:21:47
Speaker
I guess I can say his name. my It's your uncle's best friend from high school's neighbor. He died. There's this dog. Let me show you this picture. He looks just like Clyde. She shows me the picture of this white little dog with a half moon patch over his one eye and on the opposite side, this brown white body. But he's a Jack Russell, but he has the exact same markings as Clyde. And back to the Jack Russell, when we lived in New York, I said, i want to get a Jack Russell and I want to name him Jack Russell. And Craig was like, absolutely not.
01:22:17
Speaker
So this Jack Russell, she she shows me the picture and she's like, his name is Jack. And I was like, okay. So, and I i had been, dream I think I had a drink with my mom, so I was a little tipsy. And I was like, get on the on the thing, find the dog rescue, send a message.
01:22:39
Speaker
tell the story, this dog belongs to my uncle's high school neighbors high school best friend's neighbor and blah, blah, blah. And we want to come and see him. So then I tell Craig, he's like, oh, okay.
01:22:51
Speaker
He comes home the next day. We drive out to like Lake Orion at like eight o'clock at night in the dark. We go into this garage to meet this little dog. He comes over. The first thing he does is jumps on Clyde's back. Clyde growls.
01:23:04
Speaker
Craig's like, i don't know about this. The woman's like, if you want him, You can take him $200, but if you don't take him, i got I got three other people who want him. I was like, okay, we're taking him. And we brought him home and brought him into the house and the whole way home in the car. Clyde is like in the back seat with like this, what the fuck is going on here? Why is there another dog in this car? He was not having it. We bring Jack home. We bring him in the house. The first thing he does is lifts his leg and pees all over our one of our chairs. It was a crappy chair from Ikea. It came with the house, but still, that was the first thing he does.
01:23:45
Speaker
Then we take him upstairs. We go into bed and um Craig gets in bed and he like, okay, Jack, you need to... f Oh, and Jack just jumps right up on the bed.
01:23:56
Speaker
you know um Clyde had been sleeping in the bed with us, but you know he like we'd have to pick him up and put him on the bed because he knew boundaries. Jack just jumps right up on the bed and crosses his front paws and just looks right at him. And we call that his Jack Benny.
01:24:11
Speaker
um is Because he's just very like dainty. And um he's like, okay, ah Jack, you need to move on. And Jack goes, oh! And he just... reaches over, bears his fangs and just bites Craig's hand. And Craig's like, oh and Craig's like, ah, and he like grabs him and he like throws him off the bed, you know, he gently not like this isn't pet abuse here, but he was like, absolutely not. You will not. And it was just like, so then the next two weeks it was pins and needles. Clyde was not happy.
01:24:46
Speaker
um Jack's just running the house. And then i don't remember where we were, but we come home and they're on the couch together, asleep with their heads touching.
01:25:00
Speaker
and I have this picture of it that I took. It's like, there are two faces like making a heart. um And, you know, so that was 10 years ago. And I wrote them into my books and,
01:25:13
Speaker
All the characters in the domestic partners' names have been changed to protect the guilty, except for the dogs, because I want everybody to know the story of Jack and Clyde. In book one, Renovated to Death, I tell the adoption story of Clyde. In book two, I tell the adoption story of Jack.
01:25:29
Speaker
In book three, they come along with the domestic partners to the haunted house they're renovating to, like, suss out clues and sniff and, you know, do cute doggy things. But... um ah Yeah, so, you know, and like they get along and they love each other, but Clyde is very protective of Jack and Jack is just like, ah, whatever, I'll do what I want. I'm going to eat your food if I want to. um He did bite Craig at one point and drew blood and then he had to get quarantined for two weeks when the when the animal control showed up at our front door after being alerted by urgent care and, you know, but he...
01:26:09
Speaker
He's a Gemini, Jack. His birthday is June 4th. He's a Gemini. And it's like, he has a split personality. He's all sweet and sweet. And then we call it um Tenacious J comes out.
01:26:22
Speaker
Sid Vicious, Tenacious J. And he just has his moments where like, I'm i'm am in fear of him. He's 22 pounds and I, and I, sometimes I'm in fear of him. So yeah, but very sweet. And um I can't imagine my life without them. And I don't want to think about the future when they're not here with me anymore.
01:26:47
Speaker
Now, the books that you just mentioned um are are called, well, they're cozy
Exploration of Cozy Mysteries
01:26:54
Speaker
mysteries. And yes being a lifelong horror person, I'm sort of new to enjoying cozy content. And I'll tell you what actually did it for me is the Matlock show with Kathy Bates. It's it's so great. I just love it. And it's it's cozy because there is suspense sometimes. There's some mystery, you know, things are up in the air. You don't know what's going to happen. But you know from the beginning that it's the kind of content where bad guys get consequence and mysteries get solved. And yes it doesn't it's not designed to rip your heart out like the practice or L.A. law or even law and order a lot of the time. So so why cozy content? What do we need to know about this series?
01:27:40
Speaker
Well, I always describe it as like Murder, She Wrote. Remember that old show Murder, She Wrote? Oh, yeah. Okay. sure Yeah, that's how I always describe it. You know, the premise is always there's just like your average everyday person who has a job. It's usually a woman.
01:27:55
Speaker
um she She owns a bakery or a flower shop or a bookstore. um And somehow someone dies and the police... dismiss it and the everyday ordinary sleuth gets pulled in and has to solve the mystery. And so i grew up reading mysteries. I loved Encyclopedia Brown, especially when we were in fourth grade. I remember that's when I started reading them specifically. And I loved um The Hardy Boys, because um but just the TV show, not the books, because Sean Cassidy. um But that was, you know, earlier.
01:28:34
Speaker
ah You know, but I loved it. And so after my, I mean, God, did I digress. After I moved back to Michigan, I didn't write anymore. And I hadn't written a book between...
01:28:49
Speaker
2013 and like 2020, I did not write a book. I got a quote, real job and was trying to make money and trying to live a quote, normal life and have dogs and a house and home renovation and all that. um And my editors who I kept in touch with reached out to me and he said, we're looking for someone to write book.
01:29:08
Speaker
Gay Cozy Mystery. And we thought maybe you could do something with a couple like you and your partner, Craig, renovating your house and like make them home renovator home renovators and then whatever else you want to do. And I was like, oh, that could be fun. And I could use some money. And I haven't written in a while. And I like mysteries. and so i came up with this idea of this couple...
01:29:34
Speaker
who have a home renovation TV show where they' they renovate old houses. And in the first book, Renovated to Death, um they're about to start working on a house for the TV show. Because I love like, this is a sort of a digress and i can't remember if you wanted to discuss this, but when we bought our house, we started watching all the shows like House Hunters and Property Brothers and the Fixer Upper shows and the things. And we actually bought our house on the TV show House Hunters.
01:30:04
Speaker
um And the episode actually aired on May 5th, 2014. And my new book is coming out on May 5th, coincidentally. But anyway, so when we were doing House Hunters, I kept thinking, we're going to be so fun and kitschy and gay and campy. And I played the crazy one who complained about everything. And I've always had an issue with the way the houses were and how imperfect they were. And and they're going to love us and they're going to give us their own TV show.
01:30:32
Speaker
I didn't know what it was going to be about, but that's just what I thought because I always go there and I dare to dream. So it didn't happen, but I was like, now I can write a book where I have my own TV show. So I made this couple based on my partner and I, except the publisher specifically wanted them to be millennials because they were going for a younger audience. Mm-hmm. than then the cozy usually skews to.
01:30:54
Speaker
And so in the first book, they're renovating this old house and the owner ends up, they go in to meet with the owner and they find him dead at the bottom of the staircase. And so in the cozy, you don't see the murder happen. They just find a body and then, you know, through the police are like, oh, nobody ever gets killed in this historic town called Pleasant Wood located between Fern Ridge and Royal Heights. Again, because it makes it more fun. um and it makes it more cozy.
01:31:27
Speaker
And so the police are like, nobody ever gets killed in this historic town. He must have tripped and fell and broke his neck. And then one by one the partners start learning more about this guy. And he was this 50 year old gay man who owned the gay bar in downtown Fern Ridge. And he had a string of younger boyfriends who he would break up with the minute they turned 30. And, and, you know, and then he was borrowed some money from the gay mafia to renovate his bar and he couldn't pay it back and blah, blah, blah. And then little by little, they start doing their investigation and then they find out who killed him and why and,
01:32:04
Speaker
then it ends and the show goes on and everything's great. um And then I wrote a second book and then I wrote a third book. And then the publisher told me that the first book did great, but the second book, not so well. And so we're going to have to cancel your series.
01:32:23
Speaker
probably after the third book, unless the third book does better. And then I was like, but I've already written the fourth book, Drag
Series Cancellation and Future Plans
01:32:30
Speaker
to Death. The partners participate in a charity drag show, Extravaganza, because their neighbor across the street is a drag queen named Harmony House.
01:32:39
Speaker
And all the Metro Detroiters know Harmony House is a defunct record store chain. um And she's a drag queen named Harmony House. And she has the House of Houses, which includes drag queens named Melody Mansion and Carol Cottage and...
01:32:57
Speaker
Firmata flat and other names that are music and houses. So, uh, they get pulled into this charity drag show and dress up in drag. And because JP, the one was an actor and the other one is a writer and,
01:33:13
Speaker
has no acting experience, but it will be fun. And so I had already written the fourth book and then they were like, well, we're sorry, but we're canceling the series. And so now I've decided self-publish the book, which releases on May 5th, 2026.
01:33:29
Speaker
Okay, so it'll be out by the time ah we live with this. um You know what? We'll have a link tree in the in the description, right? Because I don't think I have yours yet. But but yeah, we'll we'll have one. We'll have it so everybody can can reach out.
01:33:49
Speaker
um And you're going to do a reading for us. We'll have a reading for from you at the end of the episode. Yeah, that'll be great. I'll do that for sure. Okay. What do you want to tell us about that?
01:34:01
Speaker
About the the reading? Yeah. you going to set it up? Is it ah going to be an opening chapter? No, I think um I was thinking about, because, you know, i have some book events coming up and what I'm going to do. And there is like a chapter ah that starts, um I don't know, it's like chapter five or seven, because I need lots of setup where they're at the drat charity drag show and it's ended and they're about to, um they're looking for the drag queen who they end up finding dead and
01:34:35
Speaker
the drag mother who ends up becoming the prime suspect. um Like I said, it's a charity drag show extravaganza and um they've been approached because they're local celebrities because of their TV show and because the one JP, it's JP and PJ, which can be a bit confusing, I know, but... um It's cute. It's cozy. ah And JP was an actor on a TV cop show, which qualifies him to, um you know, solve murders. And PJ writes um Young Adult,
01:35:08
Speaker
mysteries um about a gay teen detective named t j um And so it qualifies him to solve mysteries and they get pulled into this drag show because of their celebrity. And then on the night of the drag show, they're looking for the drag mother and she's gone missing and then they will soon find that dead body Wow. Okay.
01:35:36
Speaker
Good. And then, you know, then, then you got to read to find out who all the suspects are and why. And, you know, okay. All right. But it's fun. yeah The whole point is of the cozy. It's fun. It's campy. It's, you know, it's like Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, where somebody dies because they fall face down in a bowl of soup. It's like silly stuff like that, you know? Mm-hmm.
01:35:59
Speaker
All right.
PTSD, Therapy, and Childhood Memories
01:36:00
Speaker
Well, before we get to the Mad Lib, I do want to... ah we We always give guests a chance to ask me a question if they have one. So if you do, now is the time for that.
01:36:11
Speaker
Well, I don't know if this is going to be ah really good question and it's not going to give you a chance to like pontificate on the meaning of life or anything. But I want to ask you if you remember...
01:36:26
Speaker
Well, I'll preface it this way, and I think I may have asked you this before in an email or brought this up to you. What does the word Pasquale's remind you of?
01:36:39
Speaker
The best damn lasagna in town.
01:36:43
Speaker
Because that's not really a question, but I want to tell you that I have this memory of fourth grade. This is my neurodivergence coming out. um We had to, like...
01:36:56
Speaker
i so I don't remember what she called it. Our teacher made us have like a little notebook or i don't know, a folder that we made. And anytime you needed to know how to spell a word, you would ask her and then you had to write it in this book because you she you she didn't want you to have to ask her again.
01:37:16
Speaker
And I specifically remember sitting at my desk, which I think was probably in the first row right next to her desk. And I remember you walking up with your little booklet in your hand. And I remember you saying something to the extent of, to our teacher, you're not going to believe this one, Pasquale's. just remember thinking, What the hell? Who the hell is this girl? What is up with her
01:37:47
Speaker
But I was so jealous because we would drive past Pasquale's on Woodward all the time whenever we were going to like JCPenney to pick up my mother's catalog order. But my father was so cheap that he would never take us to Pasquale's.
01:37:59
Speaker
And I just have that memory of you. And I'm wondering, do you remember that? Like, do you remember going up to our teacher's desk with your little book and asking her to spell Pasquale's for you?
01:38:12
Speaker
Well, i I do actually, and I'll tell you why. It's because the assignment, what we were supposed to be working on was a story about a time when we got in trouble for something.
01:38:25
Speaker
And that story ended, well, it it started with, I ate some of my mom's lasagna, which was leftover from Pasquale's. And then I explained what had happened to me, which started with hitting and ended with me being thrown down the stairs. And so theres there were some meetings about that. Yeah.
01:38:46
Speaker
You know, teacher told Mr. Blessman, who I assume is dead now, so we can go ahead and use his name. um yeah And yeah, they they talked about whether or not they were going to do anything, and they did not.
01:39:00
Speaker
they nothing Nothing was was done. Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's kind of a recurring theme for me is the theme of we know something was happening, but nobody knew how serious it was, so no one did anything. And that's actually something I talk a lot about in my my third novel, the second one that I actually push, which is Kiss Me Like You Love Me.
01:39:25
Speaker
Because one of the reasons that the serial killer gets away with it for so long is that a lot of people see things that don't seem right, but they don't want to say anything. They don't want to be a bother. If they're women, they don't want to be accused of being hysterical. so bad things happen because nobody stops them from happening. Even people who could.
01:39:50
Speaker
So, so yes, I do remember that. And, uh, last I heard Pasquale's had a new building, but it was still there and it is still the best damn lasagna in town. Yeah. I've only been there once since.
01:40:04
Speaker
And I didn't need, Oh, make, make, make a man take you. That's my recommendation. but isn't it I just think it's so like i don't know funny. That's stupid. but What does it say about me and my brain and you in my life that I remember that?
01:40:25
Speaker
i love To this day. you know Could be autism. Could be a response to trauma. I don't know if you were in a Girl Scout uniform though on that day.
01:40:36
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. I just chalk it up to like it meant something to me and I can't let it go. That's all.
01:40:51
Speaker
All right. Well, but I can't remember last week, you know, it's weird. but No, that's, that is something that does come up in trauma responses. Actually, some of the things that you've said during this interview make me wonder if you shouldn't be evaluated for PTSD. Yeah.
01:41:08
Speaker
Because there are a lot of great ways to treat that now. I went through a lot of EMDR treatment for PTSD. And no hyperbole, man. It was life-changing.
01:41:19
Speaker
So, yeah, if if you have the means to get evaluated, i would I would highly suggest it. But for now, we have to do this Mad Lib so that we can end on a hilarious note. So, all right, we're going to start with... Wow, there's a couple of places here. I need one, two...
01:41:37
Speaker
Three things that just say a place.
01:41:42
Speaker
From me, I have to give you a place. Yes, three different places. Three different places. Okay. Should they be specific? ah You know what? The ah the glory of Mad Libs is that it can be anything from a room to a city to a planet.
01:42:01
Speaker
You know, anything. Okay. Let's go with a dog park. And then a drag club. and then...
01:42:17
Speaker
to do something with like, the band room of a high school.
01:42:28
Speaker
Okay, I need an adjective.
01:42:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Describes a noun. Yes. Actually, I need two of them. Two. um Cute and cuddly.
01:42:49
Speaker
Okay. So we have person in room male. So that'll be the guest. That's you. Person in room female. That is me. And then there's one more person in room. But we're out of people in the room. So I'm going to put one of my geckos.
01:43:07
Speaker
Okay. And my geckos are all named after famous lesbians, so I'm going to put Joan Jett. Oh, nice. Right? All right, so we're going to need a bunch of nouns. One, two, three, four nouns.
01:43:22
Speaker
um Four nouns. Okay. ah Book. um Clock. I'm looking around.
01:43:34
Speaker
Of course you are. Okay. Mission style lamp and globe.
01:43:48
Speaker
And I need a verb. Verb, sleep.
01:43:55
Speaker
I need a part of the body, singular. Big toe.
01:44:04
Speaker
And a celebrity.
01:44:09
Speaker
I'm looking for the first celebrity that I think of. um I want to say Christian Alfonso, but that's a whole other story. But we'll say Christian Alfonso TV's Hope from Days of Our Lives.
01:44:27
Speaker
Okay. And a plural noun? Plural noun.
01:44:39
Speaker
Oh, I'm looking around.
01:44:45
Speaker
Baseballs.
01:44:49
Speaker
All right. And a part of the body, plural.
01:44:57
Speaker
Knees.
01:45:01
Speaker
Alright, so this is a man-on-the-street interview. Actually, it's plural, so it's man-on-the-street interviews. This is roving reporter Perry Winkle, and I am here in the dog park to ask folks today's random question.
01:45:19
Speaker
What is the first thing you would do if you ruled the world? Responses range from intelligent to downright cute. Here is a sampling.
01:45:30
Speaker
Wednes from the drag club said, I'd make sure everyone had plenty of healthy baseballs to eat and a warm, safe book to live in. oh An up-and-coming clock by the name of Christian Alfonso said, I would give each man, woman, and miserable like ah mission-style lamp a job.
01:45:54
Speaker
It's important to use your mind and your knees to work to make the world a cuddly place. Joan Jett the Gecko from the band room in a high school said there'd be no wars.
01:46:08
Speaker
People would only allow to big toe wrestle one another and then they'd sleep and make up. Local comedian Frankie said i would require every citizen to address me by my superhero name, Globeman.
01:46:27
Speaker
I guess from now on, I will have to address you as Globeman because that will be hilarious. ah Okay, so we're going to remind everybody to stay tuned for a reading from Frankie, and it's going to be delightful.
01:46:42
Speaker
In the meantime, we do ask that you find us on Ko-Fi. That's K-O-F-I, where we are sometimes hilarious horror. Even though there's no magazine anymore, we here the podcast are still here, and we can always use your support.
01:46:57
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here, Frank. Thank you for having me. Oh, it was my pleasure. we will have contact info in case anybody wants to reach out. And thanks so much. We'll see everybody next week.
01:47:17
Speaker
It all started with Harmony's disappearance. As the glittering lights of Glitterbox continued to pulse with the rhythm of celebration, JP and I found ourselves swept up in the whirlwind of the extravaganza after-party.
01:47:30
Speaker
The lively atmosphere enveloped us as we basked in the glow of our successful drag debut, reveling in the adoration of our friends and newfound fans. After posing for pictures with the older gay couple, I wanted to return to harmony and viola as quickly as possible in case there was any additional hot goss to be overheard.
01:47:51
Speaker
But when we arrived back at the bar area, neither queen was where we'd left them. Wonder where they went, I said, voicing my thoughts aloud. JP craned his neck, peering out over the sea of colorful personalities, all moving to the beat of Detroit techno as strobing lights cast dynamic shadows on the eclectic crowd.
01:48:12
Speaker
They've got to be here somewhere, he said, eyes darting from one corner of the club to another. It was hard to miss a pair of flamboyant queens, especially one wearing cerulean blue and the other looking straight out of 1987. However, among the whirlwind of dancers, minglers, and the occasional queer guy striking a pose, there was no sign of either Harmony House or Viola Villa.
01:48:37
Speaker
I don't see them, do you? I asked, my sense of urgency growing as I scanned the room, hoping to catch a glimpse of the missing drag divas. Where could they have disappeared to in the middle of all this revelry?
01:48:49
Speaker
Hey, have you ladies seen Harmony or Viola? JP asked Cadence and Fermata. They were both taking a break from signing autographs and chatting with admirers. Or Melody, I added, realizing it had been a while since we last saw her as well.
01:49:05
Speaker
Oh, Henny, I just spoke to Viola like 20 minutes ago, replied Cadence with a raised eyebrow and a bemused smile. She said Harmony was feeling worn out from all the drama, so she coaxed her into her dressing room for a little beauty nap.
01:49:19
Speaker
Mama's probably sawing logs on that old sleeping cot she's got in there. I knew precisely what my fellow queen was talking about. Amid the vivid display of drag artistry, a curious sight stood in the corner of Harmony's personal private changing area, a modest sleeping cot, complete with a plush leopard print comforter.
01:49:39
Speaker
The first time I'd noticed it getting into character, I told Mama to spill the tea, hoping I was using the phrase correctly. What I meant was, tell us why there's a small bed in your dressing room.
01:49:51
Speaker
When I'd asked this, Harmony proceeded to explain how transforming into a fabulous queen could be utterly exhausting, so much so that sometimes between sets and shows, she needed a little beauty nap, sort of a quick charge for the next performance.
01:50:06
Speaker
It made sense for us to find her doing such after the tiring day we'd all had, but it didn't explain where Viola had disappeared to. Fermata gave a sweeping gesture with the shawl of her sari.
01:50:19
Speaker
Poof! Like a fairy godmother, she vanished into thin air. But the after-party barely just got started. Viola's gone home already? Seems odd, said J.P.
01:50:32
Speaker
When he voiced his thought, Fermata shrugged and clucked her tongue. What can I say? Viola Villa is old, can't hang the way she used to back in the day. Did she mention why she was leaving so soon, I asked, pressing on with the questions.
01:50:48
Speaker
Something about an urgent phone call from a friend out in Mount Clinton, answered Cadence. Said duty calls, but she didn't give any deets. Fermata sipped her cocktail, a glittering concoction with a cherry on top.
01:51:01
Speaker
Maybe Viola's got her own little side piece tonight. The idea of a middle-aged queen off on a secret hookup sent the other two drag queens into a tizzy. But I personally didn't find it the least bit funny.
01:51:14
Speaker
I mean, under different circumstances, I might have considered the prospect interesting. Viola seemed so straight-laced and unassuming. Not since we'd known her did I once heard her mention going on the dating apps or seeing any anyone romantically or otherwise.
01:51:31
Speaker
Okay, so Harmony is lying down and Viola took off, said JP, connecting the dots. Any idea what happened to Melody? Saw that fool heading backstage, said Fermata in a rather biting tone. Clearly she'd not gotten over her envy of Melody's upcoming top drag superstar appearance.
01:51:51
Speaker
When was that? I could just picture the showdown between drag daughter and mother once Melody arrived to find Harmony resting on the sleeping cot, their emotions colliding in the cramped confines.
01:52:03
Speaker
10 minutes maybe? Said she was gonna go check on Mama. At which point, JP and I decided it was time to go check on Melody.