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Interview With Antman & The Wasp Pre-Vis Artist Nina Helene Hertin
714 Plays3 years ago
The podcast welcomes professional film editor, director, visual effects artist, animator and singer, Nina Helene Hertin to discuss her career and journey working in the world of blockbuster film animation and special effects. Nina has worked on films including Ant-man & The Wasp, Gozilla Vs Kong, and Venom, as well as the TV series Duncanville.
Check out Nna's independent short film REQUIEM FOR A CRAB's YouTube page here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAIcNUvov8GJPyIqi7p2ZrQ/featured
Check out Nna's independent short film REQUIEM FOR A CRAB's YouTube page here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAIcNUvov8GJPyIqi7p2ZrQ/featured
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Transcript
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Guest Introduction: Nina Helene Hurton
00:00:56
Speaker
On another very exciting edition of Animation Deliberation, we welcome another guest from the animation and film industry. We've got with us Nina Helene Hurton, who has worked as an animation editor on series such as Duncanville, Curious George, Royal Monkey, and HBO Max's The Prince. Nina is a pre-visualization animator for notable films such as Godzilla vs. Kong, Venom, and Ant-Man and the Wasp.
00:01:23
Speaker
And to add to that already impressive portfolio, she is also a musician and director of music videos, including singing under the name Dara Sinek. I think I may have gotten that wrong, but I hope she can correct us here soon. After these ads, we have no control over whatsoever. You're invited to take a vacation.
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00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah. All right, folks, welcome back to Animation Deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. I am J. Scottie St. Clair. And with me today, I've got Zuhair Ali. Hello. Andrew Rogers. Hi, hi. And our very special guests, Nina Helene Hurton. Nina, thank you for being here. Hello. How are you? Thank you, thank you.
00:04:26
Speaker
I am excited to talk to you guys. Welcome. Awesome. Awesome. We are more than excited. Yeah. Yeah. This is really cool to have someone that has actually worked in the field that we're so passionate about as far as animated content goes. You've actually had boots on the ground and been able to create some of this stuff, which is just inspiring and amazing. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Yeah. All
Nina's Animation Journey
00:04:51
Speaker
right. As we get started here, one of the ways we like to get the conversation going
00:04:57
Speaker
given the fact that we are very action-animation-centric and cover a lot of comic book properties and whatnot, we'd like to ask you for your origin story. Oh, origin story? Oh my. Yes. Well, deep in the depths of Manhattan was born Nina Helene Hirton, myself. And then we moved to San Francisco where I grew up. And my dad was really a cartoon junkie. I mean, one of his favorite
00:05:24
Speaker
stories to tell is that his first date with my mom was a Porky Pig retrospective somewhere in New York. So I have a feeling that my passion for animation is derived from my father because he's got such a passion too. And I mean, most kids, I guess, have cartoons in their, well, in my case, VHS collection.
00:05:49
Speaker
Um, but he had a lot of obscure cartoons and a really a lot of old cartoons. So we had lots of Betty Boop and tons of Fleischer productions from, uh, the thirties, forties, and lots of, um, Canadian national film board collections as well. So there there's, I was exposed to so much animation when I was a kid and there used to be this traveling animation festival called Spike and Mike's animation festival. And every time I came to San Francisco, that was our religious.
00:06:19
Speaker
pilgrimage. We did that every year without fail. They had a grown up one too, which I didn't go to, but which is the sick and twisted variety. But we definitely went to the more kid friendly one all the time. And Pixar is right across the bay in Emeryville. And when they started becoming more of a presence, Spike and Mike's animation festival always used to have John Lasseter come over and talk and kind of show off.
00:06:49
Speaker
whatever latest short they were working on. And so, I mean, we really got to premiere a lot of the very first 3D animated shows, which was super cool. And I really wanted to be an animator. I wanted to be a 2D animator. Then, of course, when Toy Story came out, all the 2D animation sort of disappeared. And so I realized that that was maybe not a viable career option for my future. But it has always stayed with me.
00:07:19
Speaker
And I would always find every excuse to draw and make animations. I mean, it came down to in high school, I went to a very well-to-do progressive high school. And I have to laugh. I don't know why my teachers passed me because I somehow managed to get away with not writing.
00:07:39
Speaker
almost any essay. I mean, I instead, I would always opt for, they let me do one animated book report and then it was all over because I pretty much did. I just kind of kept animating all my book reports or animating projects that they would throw at us. And that is amazing. It was a very media forward school, I would say. And because it was a high school that was in a rich area, Marin County, it
00:08:05
Speaker
They had a lot of support from parents and stuff like that. And they put together a program, because we're on a block schedule.
Education and Career Beginnings
00:08:13
Speaker
So basically, the entirety of Wednesday and Fridays were a mixed humanities class, so English and social studies or history, and then a media class. And they just put 60 of us in a big room together, and then we would create documentaries or animations
00:08:35
Speaker
media projects to supplement all the things that we were learning. So it was a very well-rounded media education. I'm very fortunate to have gone through that as a teenager, especially because I'm very technically minded and I figured out how to animate on my cracked version of Photoshop with my mouse and being 13 years old or whatever. But that's really where it all started.
00:09:05
Speaker
Throughout that process, I was editing a lot. And I realized that that's where it all came together. That's where the animation got put together. That's where the music got put together. That's where all the live action footage that we'd be shooting got put together, graphics photos. It's just editing was the magic place where the puzzle became a picture. And from there, that's when I decided that I would go to film school and make it official.
00:09:32
Speaker
And in film school, again, I would always find excuses to do animated projects or stop motion projects or some kind of mixed media. But once again, somehow they let me pass. And then, yeah, that started my journey out into the world of trying to be a filmmaker, which
00:09:52
Speaker
is also very long and convoluted, but that's kind of the main gist of my origin, I would say. Yeah. Congratulations. That's amazing. There's so many people who have to put stuff like that as hobbies on the side, but the fact that you actually had the opportunity to incorporate that into your school life and your education life and that it was such a huge part of it is phenomenal and just, honestly, is very happy to hear. Yeah.
00:10:17
Speaker
really nothing but nice things to say about those teachers that, as I said, I don't know why they passed me. I didn't do any academics. Just drawing pictures and music videos. But anyway, it got done. I'm here now. It's all worked out. That is amazing because you get kind of scared after a while when you hear all these schools that aren't having art programs anymore and aren't doing all these big things that you
00:10:44
Speaker
not only had those opportunities, but they paid off to the point that you are a professional now. This is what you're doing all of the time. And as much as you said, it's convoluted. I want to now kind of know, all right, how did you get to be in the career path after going through all of that film school stuff? Yeah, cool. Well, so part two of my epic story. Yes. So when I graduated film school, I went to film school in Toronto at Ryerson University, which I believe is actually changing its
Establishing Otis Peachy Studios
00:11:12
Speaker
name.
00:11:14
Speaker
last time I checked so I'll have to double check exactly what the university is gonna be called now but in any case it was known for its film program in Toronto because it used to be a polytechnic and it still taught very much as a trade school but but you can still get a four-year degree out of it which is kind of the appeal for me so being very hands-on person but when I graduated from there I joined the CCE which is the Canadian cinema editors made lots of editorial friends kind of learned the ins and outs of
00:11:44
Speaker
OK, trying to get into everything as an editor in Canada. And then we decided to move to Vancouver, which was known as Hollywood North. And it's still kind of known as as Hollywood North, I would say. They shoot a lot of stuff in Vancouver. And it's funny because when you live there long enough and you watch TV, you're like,
00:12:05
Speaker
Oh, I've been there. I've been there too. That's, that's not New York. That's not Chicago. It's Vancouver. When I was briefly obsessed with the, the CW verse with Arrow and Supergirl and Flash, all of that was there in Vancouver. Yeah. We, we were lived there while they were shooting Arrow for sure. We know a bunch of people on Arrow. So yeah, it's so cool.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, Vancouver is a funny place. But anyway, I learned very quickly while I was there that as an editor, as somebody in post-production, there was actually very little work that at least that paid enough to sustain me in Vancouver, which is arguably one of the most expensive cities in North America. I learned very quickly in Vancouver that the editing community is super tiny and all the
00:12:55
Speaker
non-Canadian Hollywood productions that, of course, everybody wants to work on, shoots in Vancouver. But they do all the editing down south in LA because this is where all the executives are. This is where all the studio heads are. This is where all the money for those productions is. So it was tough up there to pay the bills. And I mean, I was still cutting everything I could, but it was all super low budget indie stuff. And I had great mentors there.
00:13:25
Speaker
and was very involved in the editing community. But there just wasn't the right opportunity for somebody that had just come out of school. But despite that, I cut a couple of things. I cut my first feature documentary while I was there. And over the course of that, I realized,
Transition to Previsualization
00:13:45
Speaker
well, I got to be able to sustain myself and my family and all that.
00:13:52
Speaker
So I decided that while I was going to keep pursuing editing, my full-time job would actually be a predator. So I took a loan out. I bought a camera. And I basically went for hire around town shooting, producing, editing, a lot of promo stuff, a lot of travel stuff, a lot of Kickstarter videos, just you name it. But that also allowed me to do a lot of my own music videos.
00:14:19
Speaker
And I bartered like hell. I just would barter with everybody because I'm just paying for everything out of my own pocket. So, you know, hey, I'll film your thing or I'll edit your thing if you'll be my gaffer, if you'll whatever. And that worked out great. And I made it super official by starting my business, which is Otis Peachy Studios Productions. I made it official. And through that company,
00:14:51
Speaker
I, yeah, I pretty much did everything. I mean, I was the one woman show. So, um, that really informed me a lot in terms of everything else, not just editing, but, um, and I mean, I already had an idea for pre-production and production and all that stuff, but this really solidified like all my workflows. It solidified all my networks. Um, I mean, I knew, I knew almost everybody in town, so it was pretty,
00:15:20
Speaker
It was a great experience. But there was always that piece of my heart that's like, I really wish I was editing, and I really wish that I was more specific in animation because that's where my heart is, really, when it comes down to it. So I had one friend who was working at Bardell Animation in Vancouver, which is one of the bigger animation studios there, and she needed
00:15:49
Speaker
She really needed a post supervisor. They didn't really have a budget for a post supervisor. But she said, if you're willing to be a coordinator on this show and help me kind of wrap out this show, it's an animated show, then at least you're in the studio. And when there's an opportunity to be an editor, maybe we can move you over. So that was cool. I had an interview. Everybody kind of agreed that that was something that could happen.
00:16:18
Speaker
So I worked at Bardell, but basically as soon as that show wrapped, DreamWorks came with a whole bunch of really good TV shows, TV show contracts. So they were a little bit remiss to try and get rid of their production staff or move production staff because they really needed strong production teams to get the DreamWorks shows moving.
00:16:45
Speaker
But I was happy for the experience and the credit on DreamWorks show. That was a way much bigger project than what I was working on. And I was managing about 50 animators across two different studios. And it was a really fun show, you know? But the pipelines that I learned doing DynoTrax as a coordinator has totally informed my editing in so many amazing ways that
00:17:12
Speaker
I really think that anybody who's interested in editing or post-production, well, let me reframe that. No matter what piece of filmmaking you're interested in, you should do other parts of it because it will inform the role that you want to do way more for the better, you know? And through working there, I met the VP of production at the time of Bardell,
00:17:41
Speaker
Bonnie, she had a lot of connections in Los Angeles and I just had my first baby and starting to feel a little homesick for California, my family, my family's in California. So while I was working at Bardell, I made friends with the VP of production there at the time, Bonnie, and she had lots of LA connections. I had just had my first baby and was feeling very homesick. I really wanted to go back to where my family was in California.
00:18:11
Speaker
Um, for the majority of them at least. And so I brought it up to her that, you know, I was thinking of going back to LA or moving to LA. And then if she had any suggestions and she said, the first thing out of her mouth was you need to work in previs. You would really like previs. And so she put me in touch with a previous company down here called the third floor. And, um, and man, was she right. It was previs really fun. It's like the most fun thing ever. Um, of course that, uh,
00:18:41
Speaker
I worked at third floor with the same agreement where I came down as a production coordinator because that's how I was being recommended from Bardell. But that worked out nicely because I really got to learn a lot about previs technology, previs pipelines, previs workflows, and kind of what studio previs is all about, which I might not have learned quite as in depth if I had started just as an editor. But fortunately, I
00:19:10
Speaker
was persistent and the head of editorial, John, felt well at the time. He gave me a chance once there was an opening. He said, hey, you got a spot for an editor, finally. And so, and there you go. Since then, I've just kind of been editing nonstop. I have so many people to thank for, you know, giving me the opportunity that I was trying to find, but it wasn't easy. It was really, you really have to keep your ears open for those opportunities. Yeah.
00:19:39
Speaker
And you have to be ready for them. You can't. You can't just kind of hum and hum wish for these opportunities to be there because when they're there and if you don't have everything ready to go, then you're screwed. You're not going to be able to take advantage of that opportunity. So yeah, it's definitely a journey. Yeah, I'm sure the listeners are getting tired of hearing me talk about this, but like I'm a photographer and
00:20:05
Speaker
in high school, they actually had like great like media and broadcasting and video and photography programs and stuff. So it was awesome getting to be able to like, explore all the options in that before I ever hit college, went to the Art Institute got my bachelor's specialized in architecture photography, but I did like a little bit of everything to events and food and portraits. And
00:20:30
Speaker
realized how much I hated a lot of things, but refined those skills and it came in handy like within my career of people being like, hey, do you mind doing this for like, you know, a spare thousand bucks? I'm like, yeah, sure. So it's like, I totally relate and heavily appreciate that.
00:20:46
Speaker
You know, they always say it's like your weakest link should still be a really strong link, like it should still be solid steel.
Skills and Mentorship in Media
00:20:53
Speaker
So hearing that from the perspective of a different part of media is really interesting. There's two questions that I have from your background, and then since you brought up the previs, I guess we can elaborate on that a little more. First one, you mentioned that I'm a photographer. What was the camera that you got? The first camera that I bought was a Sony EX-3, and I liked that specifically because I could remove the lens. Okay.
00:21:16
Speaker
as opposed to the Sony EX-1, which was pretty much the exact same camera, but the lens was fixed on it permanently. So you're kind of stuck with the standard video lens on it. Yeah, it's not good. So while the manual lens capabilities were not amazing on the EX-3, it was a great camera for all the stuff that I needed to do.
00:21:41
Speaker
It was, it had a nice look about it. I really liked the look that it had. It was video, but it didn't look super video. It really kind of had a soft dynamic range as far as whites and blacks goes, all things considered.
00:21:55
Speaker
It could shoot 24p and I just thought it was the shiznit when I got it and that was a big chunk of money for me at the time being fresh out of school and working for myself. Man, that camera was a workhorse. It never died. I could use it for live events. I got to film big concerts with it. It was super fun. Just the capabilities on that camera just made it so versatile. I could use it for music videos. I could use it for live things. I could use it for lectures.
00:22:24
Speaker
I was getting all the jobs that all the DSLR videographers couldn't take, you know? So it was a good move on my part to get that camera versus what everybody else was doing at that time, which was DSLR, that was like the new thing. And I mean, since then, now I have DSLRs, now I shoot Sony A7, but yeah, that was my first camera. I have a lot of funny stories.
00:22:54
Speaker
with it. I mean, when it's so big, I mean, I would constantly get mistaken for news media, which sometimes was problematic. I mean, I got I had to even make myself a press pass to be like, I'm independent. I don't work for anybody. They would turn me away. My camera was so bloody big. And of course, having to cart that around places was also a thing. But I have a big appreciation for all the, you know,
00:23:23
Speaker
Discovery Channel videographer people, they're all using massive cameras, too, you know, going around the world doing really complicated stuff way more complicated than anything I was doing. So yeah, I don't I don't care one bit about the people on camera who are avoiding the deadly snakes and all that because somebody's doing that with 80 pounds of extra gear. That's the part that you don't see. And it's unreal, unreal. Do you still have a camera like propped up somewhere?
00:23:50
Speaker
I don't. I sold that guy and he is hopefully still working. I'm sure the memories are more than enough. The other question that I have in regards to your journey, did you have any level of like solid mentorship when it came with this or was it just networking as best as you can and figure it out as you go? Oh, that's a complicated question because it kind of depends.
00:24:20
Speaker
on what the end goal for that moment was. So with editing, for example, I had some really great mentors. I mean, really everybody that I started out with at the CCE, the Canadian cinema editors, they were such a great resource. They're all very well-seasoned, mostly TV, but some feature editors in there. And they were the Toronto scene. They were super great, you know?
00:24:51
Speaker
One of them in particular, Gordon Burkell, he runs a website called The Art of the Guillotine, which is all about editing news. And he really was probably my main link to the rest of the world of editing, especially in Toronto. But we didn't have an editing class at my university, which is disappointing for the full-time students.
00:25:17
Speaker
But there was one for the continuing education students. And so I tried to weasel my way into that class anyway, even though it wasn't part of the program I was in. But I ended up hitting it off with Gordon. And he connected me to the CCE and other mentors. And I helped out a lot with the first, well, with the launch of Arleigh Gaettina. I did like a week of the video
00:25:46
Speaker
blog thing for him, which was a top five edited scenes of inter-topic here. So, you know, it might be best five Friday fight scenes with Jean-Claude Bundam or whatever, but it'd be very like hyper-specific stuff and just kind of a fun top five list. And this was way before anybody else was doing this. So I don't know if it really picked up the way that I would have liked it to, but yeah, he was a really great mentor as far as getting me into editing.
00:26:16
Speaker
And then in Vancouver, the first place that I got myself an internship was with Relavision Productions. And he took me on because he saw specifically on my resume that I liked making comic books and storyboards and I could draw and animate because he was also a comic book fan. So that kind of evolved from intern and helping him shoot stuff and organize and production stuff to
00:26:46
Speaker
Oh, I'm going to be the assistant editor on his next movie. Oh, I'm going to be the... Something happened with the editor. I don't really know the details, but I ended up being the co-editor. And then finally I was the actual editor. And while we didn't really agree on everything, that was a really enlightening experience in so many ways. That was my first feature. That was my first documentary feature. And his storytelling and the way that he was
00:27:15
Speaker
kind of teaching me how Heat was telling stories. I still hear him in the back of my head when I'm editing anything,
Music and Its Influence on Editing
00:27:23
Speaker
really. It's like, well, okay, well, now I have to think about the story structure. You know, we talked a lot about story structure. Everything that I was reading, theory-wise, in school, he was reiterating in more practical terms over the course of editing that film together. And that's where a lot of it really got cemented into me.
00:27:45
Speaker
So in some ways, he's kind of my story mentor, I want to say. So yeah, those are like the main mentor people, I think, that have been rocks in my path, like supporting my path, we'll say. Sounds like a crucial part of your kind of development of your diversity in all the parts of your field. It's yeah, I mean, they editing is really all about story in the end. I mean, there's a lot of technical
00:28:15
Speaker
things that come along with it, but no matter what you're editing in the end, you have to figure out, is this the best way to tell the story? And that's always what it's gonna come down to. Is this the most fun way to tell the story? Is this the most emotional way to tell the story? Who's gonna watch this? How are they gonna feel? Are they gonna understand what's going on? This is all kind of editing 101 in my opinion, but I am continually surprised that younger editors don't actually have any idea about the theory side of editing. They're all about the software.
00:28:46
Speaker
I would like to think that that's what makes me more desirable as an editor, because I have a very, very solid, very geeky, nerdy obsession with the theory. But yeah, I mean, no matter what, the more well-rounded. I mean, that goes back to my point before about understanding other roles in your industry, not just the one that you want to do, but just as an editor, understanding the production design goes a long way.
00:29:16
Speaker
is abstract in how that works, but it's still relevant, you know? Yeah, and that's actually a perfect segue into the question I was just about to ask you. You know, you're talking about understanding all of these roles as they come. And I mentioned at the top that you're a musician, and you kind of talked about shooting music videos early on in your career. How do you think that that passion for music has changed what you do?
00:29:41
Speaker
honestly, a lot of the times on this podcast, the biggest thing I bring up is how music totally changes a scene. When you walk into the editing room, are you thinking, Okay, what music are we going to have? What is this going to look like? How can I better tell the story depending on what music we play at what time? You know, how do how are you using that as a tool? And also, is it better because you understand music more? You said being well rounded. I mean, you have a very obvious skill set at that point, coming from a music background.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah, you know, editing and music to me scratch the same part of the brain. A very big part of music is storytelling, you know, it's story structure. I mean, if you go back to Beethoven, I mean, you can almost visualize the stories that are happening. Disney did that with Fantasia, literally. So there's that, you know. The best music I feel like
00:30:38
Speaker
gives you the visuals without needing to have visuals. And conversely, as an editor, the rhythm and the pace of how things are said or presented on screen visually can be very musical. It's a little bit of a dance. You have to figure out where the eye is going to be from one shot to the other. Because if somebody's moving their head back and forth too quickly trying to figure out what they're supposed to be looking at,
00:31:08
Speaker
you're going to jar them. You're going to break their rhythm. If you're not pacing out a joke, right, you're going to make it fall flat. Half of comedy is timing and very similar to music. If you're going to play that note, you better make sure it's in the right spot because otherwise it's going to sound very dissonant. It's not going to sound good. It's going to jar. So rhythmically,
00:31:34
Speaker
And story-wise, music and editing are very, very similar. And I think in both cases, too, at least the way that I approach music writing, is that I have all the pieces. It's just a matter of putting them together in a way that can be understood. So as an editor, I get all the pieces given to me, and then I assemble them. And there's your puzzle. Your puzzle's now been put together. But that includes the sound, the music,
00:32:03
Speaker
all the pictures, any visual effects or whatever. And then in music, you have the guitar, the bass, the keyboards or whatever that song is about. All those pieces come together to make this story presentation, basically.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. And you said writing music. Are you and I'm just going to kind of take away from the animation here with this question, but do you write your own music as well as play all of the instruments or what instruments do you play? I suppose is the question to loop into when you're singing. Are you writing it yourself? Are you doing this whole kind of no pun intended song and dance yourself? I get a feeling you might be a little into the guitar. Yes, you should notice in my guitar collection back here, you're not even seeing all of
00:32:50
Speaker
Well, I'm a classically trained singer. My mom is a singer. Her mom was a singer. My dad is a great organist composer. He manages choirs and arranges things for them too. And his mother was also a singer. That's a lot of singers in my history. So singing is really my instrument. But that said, I can play
00:33:18
Speaker
A bunch of instruments, not really great, but I use them more for writing, I'd say. So, I mean, I play guitar probably the best out of all of them, but I can play piano, I play drums. In my live show, I have like a little electric drum set pad thing that I'll use. But really my instruments, my voice. But yes, I do write on my own music.
00:33:45
Speaker
I performed most of it. Once in a while, I'll have other people play things or remix things. My first EP, for example, was produced by somebody else. So he stripped a lot of the stuff that I did and kind of redid it. But on my last EP, everything, that's all me. So with the exception of the very last song, which was a remix by my dear friend,
00:34:16
Speaker
All right. Do you currently have a song stuck in your head right now? Oh, I always have a song stuck in my head. This is going to sound terrible. So there's a song by Skind, which she sings about true crime, which I'm not really a true crime fan per se, but I do like scary, like I love horror. And I think she's a great performer, but she recently put out a song called
00:34:45
Speaker
Chris Watts, which is about the Watts family murders, which is terrible. But there's this lullaby that she sings, and my three-year-old heard this, and she won't stop singing it, and now it's always like this. And it's creepy, as anything you can imagine, this three-year-old thing looks like a really super creepy lullaby about the Watts family murders of all things, and I feel like a terrible parent. But anyway, that is what stuck in my head right now.
Previsualization in Film Production
00:35:16
Speaker
somehow the best question you could have asked aren't all lullaby some sort of like past trauma ring around the rosie is pretty dark or something there's a lot of dark fall of the london bridge i believe yeah yeah
00:35:31
Speaker
There's one about like one of the plagues. Yeah, they're all meant to be dark. All right. Well, to get us a little bit back on topic away from the music. Like I said, I wanted to ask that question because I just love music and to all of our listeners.
00:35:48
Speaker
go and actually listen to her music. This is not just because she's here. To prep for the interview, I obviously went out and listened to things. I then just found myself continuing to listen to a bunch of your discography as after doing a preliminary scan through just because it was enjoyable. You do such a very good job that that's why I wanted to bring a bunch of it up. So listeners, please go ahead. Um, if you want to tell them the name that you were under that I definitely butchered in the intro as well. There was this
00:36:16
Speaker
But it is the word censored backwards. If that's any help at all to anybody. We trying to put the hard C on the end was where I screwed it up. That's what it was. I mean, you know how great I am at pronouncing names, so I'm sure you're killing compared to mine. All right. So jumping back into some of your works here, we wanted to go into a little bit of something outside of our wheelhouse, but we're going to let you take the reins on this.
00:36:42
Speaker
Talking about previs animation specifically something I think not enough people actually get to see Unless you're really digging into behind the scenes what it's looking like before you're gonna go to the big screen Specifically just kind of what does that look like?
00:36:58
Speaker
in the creative process? Are you doing that all yourself? Are you under strict orders of it has to look like this, but you're changing it early so that when it goes to a visual effects team, they can, you know, have the creative liberties? Where do you fit into that whole process when you're working on a big film? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, firstly, let's let's define previs, previsualization. That's the kind of short form of it. But and previs, really practically speaking, can look like
00:37:28
Speaker
anything you want. It could be storyboards, very simply. It could be storyboards cut together into an animatic. It could be a crazy mishmash of storyboards and film footage and clips from other movies, existing movies, just to try and figure out what kinds of shots might work together to tell the story that you want to tell.
00:37:53
Speaker
when you start getting more formalized and you go to a previous studio like the third floor, they actually have a team of animators who is working in Maya. And more, although recently, I believe they're moving more and more into game engines like Unreal, or a little bit faster, shinier looking graphics. But I mean, it's funny that they
00:38:17
Speaker
I remember when they described it to me, they said this is kind of like quick and dirty animation, but it's anything but quick and dirty. I mean, it's quick, but the amount of effort and creativity and time that goes into creating it is pretty impressive. And it's really a big team effort. It's not just one person, which is one thing that I really liked about it. And every show would be different, you know?
00:38:42
Speaker
I did a lot of projects where it was just a pitch. So these are projects that weren't greenlit yet. So you'd get to meet directors that had a script that wanted to try and sell it to Netflix or MGM or some studio. They'd come with an idea. They'd pitch it to us, and then we would do something called Pitch Vis. Interesting. It might include a story. It all depends on the budget.
00:39:12
Speaker
It might include a storyboard artist to work with the director one-on-one, figure out those shots, and then they give us the shots. I'd create an animatic, and then that animatic would go to the team to animate, and then I'd put it all back together. So more standard animation workflow, I would say. But sometimes it would be very abstract. Ant-Man and the Wasp is a great example of a show that
00:39:36
Speaker
was really being rewritten right up until almost the last day of shooting. So when we came on, they had not written the third act at all. They just knew that they wanted us to work on the climax of the second act, which was at the time the car chase. And so they gave us a couple of ideas and there were maybe one or two sides, but nothing was really written set in stone yet. So the
00:40:06
Speaker
The director would give us ideas. The previous supervisor would come up with ideas. I would come up with some ideas. It was just a big sandbox. It was super fun. And then from there, I would do a really complicated thing that was kind of a mix of boards. It was a mix of clips from different movies, heart-chasing specifically for Ant-Man and the Wasp.
00:40:31
Speaker
Dirty Harry, he's got that one scene where he's chasing a tiny little car. We used that a lot in our first famous sequences. You know, scenes from Bullet and just every car chase scene you can imagine. Fast and Furious, I think I pulled something from every single movie to build some of those sequences. But then the cool thing about Marvel too is that they really give their fight teams a lot of
00:40:59
Speaker
a lot of creative freedom as well. So the fight team choreographers stunt teams, they'll create something called stunt biz where they're, they're doing their choreography and then they basically shoot it in a way that they suggest, you know, that would give it maximum impact. Yes.
00:41:18
Speaker
So I would get that, too. I'd have to figure out how to put that into the bigger picture, because sometimes we have to cut away to this, or we got to see what's going on in the kitchen. The chandelier scene is a great example of that. There's a lot of things going on. The first previs cut of that was a little bit of previs animation, a lot of stunt biz, a couple of scenes from existing movies. I can't think of anything right off the top of my head,
00:41:49
Speaker
But yeah, anyway, it's a super fun sandbox. It's just really a lot of collaboration. And Marvel really trusts the previous team, and the director really trusted us too. So it was just a big collaborative sandbox. It was super fun. But not all previous looks like that. I would say Marvel movies probably universally look like that. They have this down to a well-oiled machine at this point.
00:42:18
Speaker
they're really into their previs workflow. And it shows. I mean, everything is so well put together in the end. And I really think that a lot of that can be attributed to the previs, because we get very technical in the previs. We're using the same lens kit that the DP is bringing.
00:42:45
Speaker
always very mindful about, OK, what lens is being used for this shot? And we keep track of the, it's all kind of in a real space. So the set designer will give the asset builders and the previous team architectural schematics, basically, for what they're going to be building in the studio. So they're going to build a one-to-one scale in Maya. So they can be very accurate, down to the centimeter of
00:43:13
Speaker
probably more than that now, of like how far the camera is off the ground. And I mean, you can get very, very technical. These days, they even have stuff that is super virtual production where I mean, the DP can have a little video screen joystick thing and walk around a giant volume, a room called a volume and kind of be in the space and almost have pretty much the exact same capabilities that he would have
00:43:42
Speaker
with a real camera, but it's all in a virtual world. I mean, it's incredible some of the stuff that they're doing right now. And again, I feel very privileged that I've had a taste of all this stuff. I'm not in it like I was, but man, just the things that they're capable of doing right now, there's really, there's no excuse to fix it in post. Just really do it all in pre-bit.
00:44:07
Speaker
I have to say, I love that you're giving us this inside look because I love behind the scenes and they're getting better, but they're not what they used to be of like an hour long documentary about how they shot this film. So to hear you say this technology is evolving to that degree is so cool.
00:44:25
Speaker
And I also just love knowing that they're still giving you creative freedom. I always was concerned that when everyone talks about the Marvel pipeline being so direct, and they have it down to a science that they can figure out how to do a movie so quickly. It's nice to know that they're not just telling you, here's what to do, do it. They're still letting you, you know, come up with the ideas to say that you could have come up with how the car is going to flip in that scene is so
00:44:49
Speaker
I guess rewarding for you and awesome for us as watchers to know that there's all these different artists who get to play a part in the movies we love. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's pretty cool. I mean, Marvel is very Marvel, Marvel is really interesting place because they do. They definitely know what they want. They have their direction. They're generally very clear about that direction. But
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah, at least my experience working in previs with them has been very rewarding and creatively. And personally, just everybody's really cool. So there's that as well. They really have a nice team that kind of goes from movie to movie. And they all work together and they all know each other really well. And a lot of times they'll try and get the same previs team too. So it's very,
00:45:48
Speaker
In that sort of way, it's very nice. I mean, that said, I've heard some horror stories from other movies. So my experience is definitely not the universal experience, I think. But for the most part, I had a great experience. And it was really fun to see how little really had changed in the final, as far as the stuff that we had
00:46:17
Speaker
done in previs, it's very close. A lot of the third act, I mean, we previs most of the third act, if not the entire thing. And all the quantum realm, all the car chase. And I mean, obviously, performances and stuff are different than, like, human performances are different than anything that we would animate.
00:46:41
Speaker
But it's very, very similar. I think if I were to ever try and do a side by side, it would be pretty close. You used the word marvel and horror in the same sentence. So I'm going to ask you a yes or no question. Have you seen the new Doctor Strange yet? No. Oh, dang it. I was going to tease our listeners, but we can't do anything there. So elaborate on this little movie for me.
00:47:13
Speaker
Are there different previous teams at different times for one film? Like, did your team cover certain parts of the movie and there were other teams that covered other parts of Ant-Man and the Wasp? Was that how that works? Well, there are other previous studios in Los Angeles, at least. Probably some more in the rest of the world, too.
00:47:36
Speaker
So for Ant-Man and the Wasp specifically, did you work on one specific part of Ant-Man and the Wasp and other studios or other teams handled other parts of it? Or did you do all of Ant-Man and the Wasp? I don't know, actually. I mean, we did the majority, I think, of the previous for that particular movie. There are other previous studios and usually how it works is that they'll
00:48:02
Speaker
farm out certain sequences to different previous studios, I guess, I think, depending on what kind of budget they have or how, like, technical they need to be. Third floor is definitely the biggest. I mean, I can't speak for any of its business practices because I'm not privy to any of that. But I imagine that they're probably not the cheapest because they are so in demand
00:48:30
Speaker
And rightfully so, they're really good at what they do. So, but I mean, yeah, budget budget kind of always comes down to the factor. But I think the we certainly did most of that movie. I mean, we previous. Maybe two thirds of that film, so I don't know. I would have to go look at the credits and see if another studio was also involved.
00:48:59
Speaker
I wouldn't be surprised if it was maybe one or two, but we did a lot. We did a lot of that. I mean, we did the entire car chase. We did all the quantum scenes. The dream sequence. That was trippy. I can only imagine what goes on through y'all's heads when you're working on things like just shrinking down to that level of being into the quantum realm. That was amazing.
00:49:24
Speaker
Oh man, some of the stuff that got left on the cutting room floor, I'm so sad. Wow, really? I can't speak about any of it, unfortunately, because... Darn! ...the contracts that are... You said all this good stuff about Marvel, it always comes down to NDAs not being able to ask anything through that. That's tipping the scales for me right there. Unfortunately, I can't talk about the stuff that didn't make it onto screen, unfortunately. Yeah, that's fair. But it's really...
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we had some great ideas on that one. If they were making Ant-Man 3, I hope that some of them get regurgitated because they were really good. Quantum Mania. Lastly, for that, you spoke about the car chase scene a lot. Do you have a favorite scene from that movie? Not necessarily that you worked on, but just even in like final production. Or it could be like one that you enjoyed working on most, but one that you enjoyed watching the finals foremost. Like, what are your favorite parts of Ant-Man The Lost
00:50:20
Speaker
I really liked working on the chandelier and kitchen scene. There were some really unique shots in that and some very talented animators working on those. And the logistics that had to go into making that with all the shrinking and the growing and the smashing and the running along the knife and all that stuff, it's like that scene was really
00:50:50
Speaker
It was fun to edit because, as I said, that was a big mix of a whole bunch of stuff. It was just like, OK, how can we make this make sense? And we're all coming up with ideas to put it together and make it as fun as possible. But yeah, when that sequence was done and then when it got shot and it looked perfect, that was just the way that we had animated it. That was very satisfying.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, I have to say one of my favorite scenes was when Ant-Man the Wasp were fighting ghosts towards the end.
00:51:27
Speaker
because I was wondering like what action looks like and stuff like that because I do martial arts a lot so it's like I'm always like privy to how the action looks and just the shrinking versus the walking through things was so fascinating and it was just really cool how all that stuff tied together and just the frustration on both ends like Eastfall haha went right through me and that back and forth exchange was so unique and just such a blast to watch
00:51:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, a lot of that credit goes to the stunt team. I mean, they... Let me just say that it's not just they hand me one stunt vis and then that's what we use. It's constantly being redone and they're constantly sending me updates and I have to work it in. And we got to talk to the director and the previous supervisor to make sure that everything's hooking up properly. So it's really a process and it moves fast.
00:52:24
Speaker
Marvel doesn't mess around. They're on Cheetah Speed pretty much 24-7. And the stunt team were all super cool. Our previous team supervisor, Jim Baker, he's a hacky sack fanatic, so he'd get everybody out to play hacky sack, and we'd always get the stunt team in the second unit to come hacky sack with us. It was so cool talking to them and learning all about their side of things. That's kind of far away from
00:52:52
Speaker
anything that I usually do. I'm not, I'm not very stunt oriented. So it's a, yeah, man, I just, I learned so much from that movie. It's about the whole process and every, just the amount of work that goes into that movie, those movies. I mean, yeah, is amazing. I hope you get to be on pointy more.
00:53:16
Speaker
Yeah. I assume it's something you want to do, obviously. I mean, in my perfect world, someday I'm editing a Marvel movie. I mean, I would love to do that someday. I got my fingers crossed for Quantum Mania for you. Yes, give me a quantum realm. I'll take it.
00:53:33
Speaker
It's just amazing to know that you were working so close with the teams that you say you can hacky sack with them. I was you could see my face. The listeners at home could just the stunned look of what do you mean you get to hang out with these people? That's I want to do that. That's awesome. But we're gonna hammer a little bit more on Ant-Man and the Wasp just because it's such a visually stunning movie. I wanted to talk about how
00:53:55
Speaker
did you figure out your size and scale when it came to the shrinking and everything that movie is touted for the way that it properly did shrinking and depth of field so that anytime you would have a shot with Ant-Man and the wasp, you had perfect, you know, what should be blurry, that is only, you know, inches behind them actually was because of your actual focus that would happen on a camera on an object so small. How do you plan that out when you're pre visiting what
00:54:21
Speaker
is gonna look good in the shot and not based on that size and scale, as well as how do you figure out how small Ant-Man is in comparison to the knife or the salt shaker or whatever it is? There's a couple answers to that question. First off, it's worth mentioning that there wasn't a specific macro team of people that specialized in macro photography, videography, cinematography. And so they consulted with us a lot about
00:54:51
Speaker
for example, inside the computer. How is this going to look like? What are we actually shooting with? And this is where the technical side of previs comes in, where it is very, very useful for the animation team to not only understand physics of animation and realistic physics and the effects of physics, but
00:55:13
Speaker
Camera. Understanding how to use a camera and understanding the use of depth of field. And as I said earlier, we're doing things in one-to-one scale environments. And we're using the lenses that they're telling us that they're going to use. And so when we're given the parameters to use, then we can be really creative. If it's too open,
00:55:42
Speaker
going to get lost, but as long as you have some kind of direction to go in. And Marvel was really good about giving direction without feeling like we didn't have the creative input, you know, at least on the last. But the, but yeah, so there's the macro team who were really able to speak to
00:56:10
Speaker
being able to shoot that stuff really accurately. And then when it came to stuff like the van and any point where they're fighting and stuff like that, there was a lot of, I mean, we'd have to collaborate with everybody that was working in those spaces. Like, for example, Fighting Ghost, at the end, there was a lot of, the stunt team really came up with a lot of how that
00:56:38
Speaker
manifested, you know, like when she would disappear and go walk through them or walk through a wall or anything like that. And so we would kind of follow that and then plus it, you know. And then finally, to answer your question about the scale is that we literally had little toy scale Ant-Man's of various sizes, with the exception of little Ant-Man, not like
00:57:07
Speaker
not microscopic Ant-Man or child Ant-Man. But yeah, child Ant-Man, I forget exactly what he was thinking. That was the only one that we didn't have an actual height for, but we did have a stand-in actor. So we basically built a model of him. And so he was the stand-in for anything that you didn't see. Well, I think even for
00:57:33
Speaker
a lot of the scenes where you saw Scott's face that you're actually looking at him, you know, but there would be. Yeah, I mean, we were working in real scale, and I think if you have an understanding of cameras and animation, this is what makes the previous team so amazing is that they have this understanding. They have such a wide berth of technical knowledge to be able to create these shots. And of course, there are specialists here and there, but
00:58:04
Speaker
that do very specific things like something called Techviz. Sounds exactly what you would think it is. For example, I know that they use that a lot on Game of Thrones. I didn't work on Game of Thrones, but I know many people who did. And at the third floor, they would,
Working on Animated Series
00:58:22
Speaker
for example, the data that they would animate the dragon with when they're blowing fire and all that stuff would
00:58:32
Speaker
could be directly input into the techno crane on set. And so they would know exactly where the dragon's going to be. And then at that point, it's just a matter of, OK, we shot this footage. Let's just slap the dragon on top of it right where he should be. And it looked great because it was all planned.
00:58:53
Speaker
down to the millimeter as far as I know. The level of technical detail that they can plan in pre-vis and techvis and all that really makes for a solid final product.
00:59:09
Speaker
Awesome, and I'm guessing it's a simple quick answer. Was it the same idea for something like Godzilla vs. Kong, but in the opposite direction where you were looking at scale buildings with Kaiju instead of looking at scale household items with a small ant? Let's see, for that one... I only really got to help out for a little bit on that one, unfortunately.
00:59:34
Speaker
because they ended up going on a long hiatus. I was going to be on it for longer. But they were going through some rewrites and they decided to pause the video. So I didn't get to work on as much of it as I would have liked because I loved. Yes, I love hearing that. I was so excited to work on that one too. I was like, oh yes, I'm finally going on this one. So that was this point. But with that one, that one was more script-driven, I think.
01:00:01
Speaker
But yeah, unfortunately I can't speak to the technical details of that one quite as much. I wasn't really as ingrained in Godzilla vs. Kong as I was on Ant-Man. Alright, that's fair because it's a good thing you didn't work on the first one because then I would have asked how Godzilla was standing in the ocean during that one scene where no one knows where he came from. So you're safe in that regard that we don't have too much to ask out of that. Don't question the kaiju.
01:00:28
Speaker
Just fear and run, don't ask questions. Before we move on to some of the animated stuff, do you have any fun stories about Venom? Or just genuinely what it was like working on that one on the Sony end of Marvel? Yeah, that one was... That one I also didn't get to get as into the weeds as some of the other projects that I worked on, but I kind of took over that project from another editor, but...
01:00:59
Speaker
I mostly worked on the final battle sequence with that one. That was really cool because they were working very closely with the final VFX team because they really needed to figure out how the symbiote goop was going to react.
01:01:25
Speaker
No, honestly, the coolest part of working on that was that I got to see a lot of the early iterations of what that symbiote texture was going to be. And some of it was really disgusting and some of it was super slick and cool. And obviously they found something that worked great. But yeah, the most interesting part of that for me was watching the previous kind of change every time that they decided how to change
01:01:54
Speaker
the functionality of the symbiote substance, you know, that goop. So maybe maybe not a super exciting story, but I thought it was really. People call me crazy because I say that both of those movies are my favorite Marvel rom coms, because it's the dynamic between Tom Hardy and himself. Phenomenal.
01:02:21
Speaker
Moving into the animation a little bit, I have to say I got really tripped up when I started watching Duncanville, because what I like to do is when I'm editing my photos at the end of the day is I typically have a sitcom of some sort on something that I've seen before, so that is background noise, right? So I'm currently watching for the third time Modern Family.
01:02:44
Speaker
So when Ty Burrell for Phil Dunphy, I've been listening to him for like four weeks now, maybe. And when I started the show, like I'm clearly watching Duncanville. And I see that it's not Modern Family, but I keep looking at it like. Did I put on the wrong show? Because he's playing himself exactly, but just in an animated role. And I love everything about it, like.
01:03:12
Speaker
Visually, it's amazing. I could not stop laughing the first time that um Was it what's the son's name? Sorry is it is it any? Yeah, duh Duncan like Looking at the whole cast name right now. My brain just went full Rubik's Cube When Duncan was running for the first time and he had like a little squiggly eye
01:03:44
Speaker
It was like it was like the Naruto run with noodle arms Yes, you get what I'm talking about finally someone got an archer reference on the show. Oh, you just made my day with that alone
01:03:57
Speaker
Yeah, everything about that is I mean, the cast, of course, is amazing. But visually, that show is just so appealing. And it gives me a good laugh at least at least like two, three times an episode. I'm so happy to hear that. I really I think it's a really funny show. This this next season that is that just started airing recently is is by far the best season. I mean, really, the writers have totally locked down the characters.
01:04:26
Speaker
And the stories this year are just totally crazy. And we have some really, really great cameos. I don't know when this is going to come out, so I don't know what I'm allowed to say or not, or what's going to air when. But yeah, there's so many fun people coming on this year.
01:04:44
Speaker
We'll keep the secrecy alive, and I do have a solid technical question for you. This is one that I get asked a lot because I co-host an animation podcast, but honestly don't have a solid answer to. What comes first? The voice recording or the mouth animations? Oh, definitely the voices. Yeah. Okay. So first things first is everything gets written. So once the script is in
01:05:14
Speaker
a production format, basically ready for action, we'll say. Then it gets given to the storyboard team who has a director that directs everybody. And the director will thumb out his key shots. Like, this is kind of how I want this to go. I want to make sure that this performance happens in this way. And then he or she will delegate that out to storyboard artists who will
01:05:43
Speaker
flesh it out and make it into something watchable. And then they'll give me the boards and I will put it all together with the dialogue. Actually, sorry, I skipped the stuff. So first is writing, next is recording. They record all the audio. Record all the dialogue.
01:06:03
Speaker
And then radio plays are created by the dialogue editor who on our show is Angie Faulkner and she's great. So she puts together everything in a super tight radio play that is given to the storyboard artist. Storyboard artists will use that to build out all the shots and figure out the performances for each thing. And then from there it's cut. They give it to me every time and if I need to. A lot of times stuff gets rewritten, gets re-recorded.
01:06:32
Speaker
I'll create a big sound bed of sound effects and just try and make it as watchable and as fun as possible and make sure that the jokes are being timed out. I also have to make sure that any animation that's happening, I sort of have to have my knowledge of timing and making sure that there's enough time for this particular action to happen and be animated. I have to make sure that's in there. And then overall kind of pass of just
01:07:01
Speaker
Rhythm, you know? Duncanville is a super fast-paced show. I jokingly call it an ADD show because it's just like joke after joke after joke after joke with not really much pause, we'll say.
01:07:15
Speaker
Um, one of the episodes I was watching it was like the way that the show started and where it ended up. And I was like, what's the relevance between how it's like, am I on the same episode and then hop like perfectly back to where it was? So yeah, you saying that, um, it was, I'm not even going to try to remember what the episode was. I just remember there was one, Oh, it was fridgey. Oh yeah. That was a good episode. That was not my editor on the show. Um, we each get.
01:07:44
Speaker
ownership over each of our episodes. So okay, Jonathan will get to do his whole show from animatic to color, I'll get to do my whole show from animatic to color and we swap episodes. So I'll do all the okay. I do all the even number of episodes, he does all the odd number of episodes.
01:08:00
Speaker
Okay, gotcha. Oh, nice. But yeah, Fridgey was, that was a great episode. Yeah, Fridgey was one and there was a couple of others where it's like, I had to, I had to check to see if I was on the same episode because I was wondering how like, it started and how we ended up here. And I know that Family Guy does that a lot too, where it's like, it started off here where it's like, how did we end up in this spot? Just try to connect it, but it really is a fun show. Like, I, I might just have to put Modern Family on hold and just
01:08:27
Speaker
keep watching this while I work. It definitely helps out my stressful days. And Zuhair kind of brought up at the start that these voice actors are amazing comedians, and they are really acting themselves as opposed to acting a role. And it really shows in the way that they're doing their mannerisms and a little bit of the physical comedy that they bring when they're speaking, they all have a presence.
01:08:53
Speaker
Are you watching them, you know, on stage and then thinking to yourself, okay, I could pluck a little bit of the usual ways that they would do something and deliver a bit? Or how are you bringing such life to these characters? When you're going through this process? I think a lot of the characters kind of play themselves. I mean, Bex, for example, is we're gonna I'm blanking on her name right now. Betsy Sedaro. Yeah, Betsy Sedaro.
01:09:21
Speaker
Betsy Sedaro is a very specific sounding comedian and the character even is drawn to look just like her. So that's an example of a character that is like that. I would say Amy is a little less being herself on this show. She really, she manages to have Duncan be very separate from Amy. And it's interesting how, like if I'm just listening and I'm picking takes or I'm trying to find effort sounds
01:09:51
Speaker
filling in gaps or anything like that. If I'm not looking at the picture, there are moments where I can't decide if it's Duncan or Annie, but for the most part, she's really good at those characters being those characters. And, I mean, props to her. That's hard. Doing the same show and having to play two characters at the same time, you know, not necessarily at the same time, but if you're sitting and you're watching a table read, for example,
01:10:21
Speaker
She's having conversation with herself and she, this isn't real time. So, you know, she's reading the script and she has to be Duncan for herself. And then she has to be, why don't you do it? Don't do that. It's just, it's amazing. You know, she's really incredible. I will say that I don't necessarily consider sneaking things from other, from like their non Duncanville stuff, because there's a lot of legal issues involved with that. But, um,
01:10:52
Speaker
With that said, I will say that one of the most fun things to do is, and I feel like some people would find this tedious, but the showrunners on the show, the Scully's, they love effort sounds. And so they'll basically task me with filling in a lot of efforts. And so we have this giant library of different sounds from the actors and I'll go through a character and I'll just kind of scroll through them with these previews and it'll just be like,
01:11:45
Speaker
So I'm hoping that this is a this is the even episode but when they walked in on their parents and they were like beating the rug I Can only imagine you sitting there Oh That's a brilliant
01:11:46
Speaker
Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh
01:12:11
Speaker
So it's not exactly the same, but I do get the joy of going through libraries and hearing multiple versions of the same sound by one actor and deciding which one is appropriate for that exact moment. It's a talent. Do you have a favorite character? I love Jing. She's 100% my favorite. She's so smart and funny. And she reminds me of my three-year-old, even though she's older than my three-year-old. But yeah, that kid is funny.
01:12:41
Speaker
Yeah, her and Wolf are probably my favorite, especially because I just watched Zach Cherry on Severance. And this is like the complete opposite, especially with the deep voice and everything. I'm one of those people who I try not to look at the voice actors because I try to keep my media separate from these people's actual lives so I don't intertwine them too much.
01:13:04
Speaker
But for the sake of this interview, obviously I was looking into everybody and there was a few of them where it's like I never would have guessed. I was so surprised when I saw Wiz Khalifa on the lineup. And now it's when the episode came up where he was like, do you listen to my mixtape? Do you listen to my mixtape? Do you listen to my mixtape? I was like, OK, yeah, that totally is him.
01:13:22
Speaker
It's it's really incredible like how well this cast does it just kind of like making their own characters and not I mean obviously Ty Burrell was a different thing because he's literally just playing I'm convinced that's just him as a human being now But everybody else just does such a fun job. He's so sweet. He's a sweet, sweet person. He's a really awesome guy. Do you get to interact with them at all? Not really. Okay.
01:13:48
Speaker
You know, at the one rap party we got before the pandemic, that's for season one, everybody was there. But generally speaking, I don't really get to interact with the actors too much. Most of my time is spent with the director, the series director, well, the show director, the series director, whoever sees all the shows, yeah, all the episodes, and then the showrunners who are the Scully's, who are the same people that have been running Simpsons for like 25 years or something.
01:14:17
Speaker
Um, so they're all veteran animation, people, sitcom, animated sitcom people. And it's, um, yeah, I've learned a lot on this show too. And I mean, I've been doing animation for a minute, different forms of it. This is my first big TV show. But that's, yeah, those are the people that I really work the most with, I would say.
01:14:42
Speaker
on a daily basis anyway. So, Duncanville kind of being relevant more towards Curious George.
01:14:50
Speaker
The last interview that we did was with one of the head editors of Tom and Jerry. And I kind of want to ask you a similar question that I asked him. For something like Curious George and being somebody that
Nostalgia and Creative Influences
01:15:02
Speaker
has kids, is any of the content that you grew up with and knowing what your kids consume a factor in how you work on Curious George or do you put all that aside and just do what you do?
01:15:18
Speaker
Every project has a specific audience. A lot of studios like to say, oh, well, it's for everybody. But it's really not. The only way that you can effectively market anything. And I learned this very early on in my freelancing career before, as a predator, is that if you're not targeting, then you're not going to make a return, period. So any story that's written is aimed
01:15:47
Speaker
at a target demographic. And if anybody else wants to join in, then awesome. But generally speaking, this is the audience that they're going to go for. So in case of Curious Gorge, their audience is under six years old, really. I mean, I'm sure that there's older kids that like it. I'm sure that there's grownups that like it. I know there's grownups that like it, actually.
01:16:15
Speaker
But that is the target. So no matter what I'm editing, I mean, it could be a horror film. It could be a Marvel movie. It could be very storage. It could be Duncan Bell. My job really as an editor, it's like the number one part of my job description is to remove myself and pretend that I am the intended audience. And that's how I will completely understand whether or not this is working. Because if I'm looking at it as myself,
01:16:45
Speaker
I'm not the target audience! I'm not doing the project any favors by being myself. Sure, my ability to put myself in the shoes of a four-year-old is certainly informed by my having raised two kids now, but really the answer to your question is it
01:17:10
Speaker
I have to take myself out. This project is almost never my project. Unless it is my project, then it's different. But nine times out of 10, I'm editing something that is not my project. It's not intended for somebody in my demographic. So I need to be able to put my headspace into whoever it is we're trying to sell to. Certain pacing is going to work better for certain demographics.
01:17:38
Speaker
career storage needs to be kind of slow, you know, for kids to be able to keep up with it. That's not to mention that there aren't like upbeat energetic sequences, but, but even those sequences are, the cut ratio is, is much less than it is in Duncanville, which is really designed for adults. I mean,
01:17:59
Speaker
My 8-year-old really likes Duncanville. She has now seen everything because I work her home and so does she. She's seen everything and she likes it. I think a lot of the jokes are over her head. But ultimately, that sitcom is really designed for adults. I think it's good for young adults, really, in the end. But a lot of the jokes are really aimed at
01:18:27
Speaker
like Gen X and above too, I would say there's lots of other books in there for sure. So Google references. Yeah, I think that was kind of a funny show. It really does kind of hit a lot of demographics. But yeah, hopefully that answers your question. Yeah, I'm just always curious on like what, what motivates people really and kind of what goes to the head as they do this. Now, a totally unrelated question. Are you into anime at all?
01:18:55
Speaker
I'm not like hardcore, but I know enough. I've seen lots of the classics, we'll say. Okay, you got my Naruto reference, so that made me happy. I haven't actually watched a lot of Naruto, but I know a lot of the references. Okay, fair enough. I typically would ask if you had like a Mount Rushmore of anime, but if not, what are some like honorable mentions if you don't have like an official like, God, this is amazing, it deserves to be sculpted on the side of the mountain.
01:19:26
Speaker
As far as anime specifically, I mean, really any Miyazaki film. I'm a big fan. I think you put Miyazaki's face on there. And my daughter loves them too. Both of them, actually. So, yeah, there's lots of Miyazaki happening in our house.
01:19:45
Speaker
So we can just sculpt Totoro on the side and just represent all the Miyazaki films. Totoro would 100% be on my Mount Rushmore. He deserves it. Cute furry animals. Yeah, that one. I really liked Evangelion, although it's been a long time since I've seen it. I think a lot of it was kind of over my head too when I first watched it.
01:20:13
Speaker
And we can also open this up to any other just animated things in general that you were like, this is a big inspiration for what I'm doing. The thing that I would want everyone to see to truly like appreciate animation as an art form. If you really need to film the other two. Yeah. Well, appreciating animation as an art form. I mean. Man, if you watch anything by the Fleischer's. Those guys were really pioneers.
01:20:42
Speaker
in the technology and they just, they influenced so much. I mean, Cuphead more recently is really trying to throw back to that vibe, you know, which was cool. And I mean, of course, because I'm a geek and I want to make sure that I indoctrinate my children with good animation, I watch them watch a penny boop in, you know, a lot of old cartoons and fortunately they're into them, they like them.
01:21:12
Speaker
And it's cool that she, that even my eight year old can recognize the parallels too. Like she was watching Cuphead and I said, Oh, you're watching Cuphead. Do you like that? And she's like, yeah, it's kind of like the Betty Boop. I'm like, I'm doing my job. Yeah. And the rubber hosing, you know, that Duncanville references that too. The amount of, yeah, if you need a lesson in
01:21:37
Speaker
in animation craft than Fleischer's. I mean, they did it all. They did natural animation. They did rotoscope animation. They did live action and fusion. I mean, it's all there. They really did so much for the media, as far as I'm concerned. They did not get the credits that they, I think, really deserved. But yeah, Fleischer Brothers, Filivers,
01:22:07
Speaker
Wait, Delverse Travels, a movie that was a Fleischer Brothers film that I had on VHS that I probably watched more than anything. And I don't even know why I watched it as much as I did. I just, I really liked, I just thought the animation was great. I really liked the art in it. Even as a kid, I just liked watching the art in that movie. I didn't even like the story that much.
01:22:40
Speaker
Well, as far as being influential to me, I mean, Monsters, Inc. is very high on my list of movies that really inspired me, but that is also partially in part to the fact that I got to visit Pixar while they were in pre-production for that. So I really got a taste for that world. My stepmom had a friend of a friend
01:23:08
Speaker
some degree of a person that was a storyboard artist there at the time. And he agreed to give us a tour. So I got a tour. He pitched me a scene. It was the Yeti scene with the snow cones. And yeah, he showed me the process of what storyboard artists do at Pixar. And I just thought that was so cool. And then of course, I went and saw the movie. So I mean, there's
01:23:33
Speaker
There's that nostalgia and that connection to it, of course. But I mean, even as a movie, the storytelling and the character designs and everything, I mean, I I must have seen that movie about 30 times now and I still cry. Yeah. So that if we're going way back to when I like what inspired me to be an animator, it's probably the fox and the hound Aladdin.
01:23:58
Speaker
Little Mermaid, the 90s kind of Renaissance, Disney, you know, flying name. Yes. Beauty and the Beast is very important to me, I think. Just a lot of the new technologies that we're doing, that they were doing with the 2D animation in that era was so cool to me. I thought that was really cool. So. Yeah, that's all. That was a little rambly, but I love it. That's what we're here for.
Recommendations and Fan Moments
01:24:29
Speaker
I will wrap up that discussion by saying if you are looking for an anime to watch, there's one called Spy X Family. It's only five episodes in. I thought it was supposed to be an action flick, but it's actually a comedy and it's very funny. Spy X Family. Yeah. And you kind of hit a lot of these, but we actually did have a few listeners who sent in questions. So we'll read it out how they wrote it.
01:24:59
Speaker
And then if there's something that you felt like you wanted to elaborate on or you were like, no, I kind of got that already, then either elaborate or passage, depending on where you're going with. Andrew, you want to hit those for us?
01:25:12
Speaker
Yeah, so we had one of our listeners Courtney O'Brien asked, you know, what is the most exciting part of the job for you? What makes it fun? And you know, like you kind of touched on, are you a fan of all of the content? And if so, do you add an extra element of wanting to honor that project right away? And how are you connecting to all of these things more as you are a fan? Oh, well, I
01:25:39
Speaker
I'm fortunate that I have been a fan of pretty much everything that I've worked on so far. I mean, cartoon-wise, we'll say. There's a couple things that I wish I didn't take on in the live-action world, but that's mostly few and far between. I've been very fortunate to be presented with quirky projects that suit my quirky personality, so I think the most exciting part of it is
01:26:07
Speaker
I don't have a good answer to that question. That's a great question. It's all exciting. It's all exciting. I really, really like what I do. I like everything about it. Sometimes it's as simple as that. I think that the most exciting part about it is that somehow I've managed to make it my career. It was a long road to get there, but I got there, and now I'm here, and I'm damned if I'm going to lose it.
01:26:37
Speaker
So yeah, I love music and movies. It's all I ever want to do. It is extra exciting when I get to work on a project that has great talent on it. I mean, Curious George, again, I'm going to go back to my library reference, but the library of Curious George sounds from, man, I'm failing on names today. But he's a legend. He's a legend.
01:27:06
Speaker
I wish I could help you. Usually I'm quick with this stuff. Frank Welker. Oh my gosh. You'd think that I would know this off the top of my head. Yeah, Frank Welker. I mean, he's one of my favorite voiceover artists and like super exciting to go through a library of monkey sounds. He's so incredible too. The casting
01:27:32
Speaker
the records that you get back, I mean, sometimes you could hear the talk back and nine times out of 10, they would just let him run. And so it'd just be like this three minute clip of, hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo
01:28:02
Speaker
And so if you play them back all at the same time, it's just this cacophony of curious George. And it's absurd. Some of the funniest things I've ever heard. It's terrifying, actually, because it's just like every single monkey sound you could ever think of at once. But yeah, so I mean, there's that. And then there was an animated show. There's a couple shows, actually, where another one of my favorite voiceover artists is
01:28:33
Speaker
Jim Cummings, and I got to meet him actually on a third floor thing because he's one of the who, among other things. But I got to help out on Christopher Robin very, very early in the previous world. And so he came in and I was basically recording sides with him and the director and like, that, you should have seen my face when the coordinator told me who was coming in.
01:29:03
Speaker
the next day, because I just basically had like a total fangirl freak out. I mean, it was ridiculous. And the entire time he's sitting there, reading Winnie the Pooh, and I'm trying not to cry, because I'm like, I can't remember the same room with one of my voices. Heroes, I just, this is amazing. So it's, yeah, it's really fun when I get to work on things with people that I really enjoy listening to, you know,
01:29:31
Speaker
I mean, Amy Poehler working on a show with Amy Poehler and everybody on that show, really. They're all crazy talented. But I mean, yeah, Amy's legend at this point now, too. So that is very exciting to be able to work on stuff like that.
01:29:45
Speaker
And there was a lot to that question. Yes, there there was. I think you did hit all of it because you talked about how it was fun how you're a fan of the people. And I mean, the only thing you didn't really answer was the most exciting part because you just talked about seven exciting parts. So I think that that definitely fits that bill. I'm just happy to be here. We're extremely happy as well. We had another listener question as well.
01:30:12
Speaker
This one came to us from Gabriel Hernandez. And this is another three part question. So if I need to break it up, let me know. How does
Becoming an Animation Editor
01:30:20
Speaker
one get into the career? How long does it take to kind of do your part of the job as an editor? And what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue this career, how they should get their, you know, themselves going in this world? Yeah, well, my friends from art institute would definitely appreciate the answer to that question.
01:30:40
Speaker
Yes, editing specifically. I mean, there's a couple different ways you can get into it. I went into it very unconventionally, I would say. The typical path is that you would reach out to a studio, be a PA of some kind, preferably a post-PA. You know, you get to learn the post-production workflow. And then you kind of work your way up and eventually you become
01:31:09
Speaker
an assistant editor, which is a very technical job. You really have to know your software to be able to do that. And then after that, you kind of keep moving up. You get to editor. In animation specifically, there's a couple different kinds of editors. And depending on what kind of project it is, you might want to specialize. I mean, I know people that only do animatics, for example. I know people that only do picture, for example.
01:31:39
Speaker
I love doing both. I attribute that to my geekiness and passion for animation, just kind of taking me through that whole thing. So I'm happy to do everything, or just one thing, whatever the project needs me to do. But if you really want to get into animation editing specifically, it is kind of its own beast, and it is a little bit more technical. And I think if you want to give yourself an edge,
01:32:08
Speaker
then it would really benefit you to not only know your tools really well, so go learn from your goal, have it. Learn the other ones, too. Why not? But those are the main ones you're going to hit. But know your software and edit as many things as you possibly can. But also make sure that you learn some animation. You don't have to go animate, but you should have an understanding of timing. You should have an understanding
01:32:37
Speaker
frames and how movement happens within frames, how fast, how slow. Go nuts on the editing theory. There's tons of them out there. It's always going to come down to clarity and story, really, in the end. Animation editing can be very technical, but it still always comes back down to story, always. So whatever you can do to beef up your story skills and your timing skills,
01:33:07
Speaker
that's going to stand out as an animation editor, specifically, or an animatic editor, as opposed to live action stuff. But yeah, that's kind of, you want to do that, and you want to make sure that you're taking every opportunity you can. I mean, I took on everything that I could, paid or unpaid. I was just building my reel, building my reel, and I didn't get precious about it.
01:33:36
Speaker
There are a lot of people out there that love to get precious about that stuff and won't work for less than X or whatever, but more power to them if they can still pay the bills while doing that. But it's, um, the way I see it, you're going to learn something new from every single project and especially the ones that have no budget are the ones that you're going to have probably the most creative freedom to really explore and learn. So.
01:34:05
Speaker
Yeah, just don't be afraid to get out there and take those opportunities and learn as much as you can. But yeah, for animation specifically, I really think the best animation editors are the ones that actually have some kind of a background in animation timing, specifically, or animation, regardless of what kind of animation it is. That goes for both 2D and 3D.
01:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, I love that answer. And through this whole interview, I can't speak for the listeners, but I feel like I've just learned so much about what it really takes that we're thinking an editor or I'm thinking that an editor was someone who's just at the end of the process.
01:34:46
Speaker
big figuring out where it goes and kind of fixing everything to get there. You're talking about so much more of the creative side that it makes sense that you're the one that properly tells the story. When most people will just think it's going to only be the writer tells the story, the animator, you know, puts the story on the page, and you just polish up that final product, you have to do so much more than that. And it's just been very insightful to think about
01:35:10
Speaker
every step being as important and as creative as it is. I have loved all of that throughout this interview, just from my own learning perspective. There's an old film adage that they teach in film school. I don't know if they teach anymore. But back in my day, they used to teach this old film adage that a movie or TV show is written three times. It's written by the writer. First, you get the script.
01:35:38
Speaker
It's rewritten by the director in the process of shooting or in the process of storyboarding in the case of animation. And finally, it has the final rewrite by the editor who is intended to be the objective third eye over the whole process. Even in live action, I mean, of course I'm a little biased because I'm an editor, but I'm like the number one advocate of bringing on your editor in pre-production.
01:36:05
Speaker
you know, your editor is going to be able to have the foresight of, well, can we actually fix this in post? Or is it going to actually cost you more money, you know, fix it in pre? You know, or even having an editor on set, that's, there's a great example of Baby Driver.
01:36:28
Speaker
They had that editor was on set. He came on from the very beginning. He made animatics, very, very tight animatics to the musical sequences. And as they were shooting, he would offload it and drop it in and make sure that it was all fitting properly, like as they were shooting. So I mean, that's that's an example of a very, very specific type process to try and get a very specific type look. But
01:36:57
Speaker
But it paid off. I mean, the musical sequences in that and all the guns going off at the exact right moment with the music and everything. Like, I mean, that was all that couldn't have been put together as perfectly. Without that process in place, it would have been it would have been different. It would have been a different thing. It still would have been cool. I have no doubt because they're all super talented people. But the way that they did it was a great example of. Of really controlled
01:37:28
Speaker
perfectionism, you know, and you can see it. It really works in the final product. But yeah, editing is really the invisible art that a lot of people don't really know what our job description is. They don't understand what it is. Our intention, you know, the intended point of our job is
01:37:53
Speaker
I mean, I take it upon myself to educate people about it as much as possible because I love it, but it's an interesting job. We're constantly hidden in the corner. Studios love to think that we're still cutting on film and they put us in the dark basement, never to be seen again. But the reality is that, I mean, we're kind of the
01:38:21
Speaker
We have almost the biggest responsibility. We have to put all of it together and make it all make sense and make sure that it's sounding good and looking good and that it's being understood by the people that it's intended to be shown to. And everything that I love about the job, you know, is... Yeah, it's such a well-rounded job with lots of factors to it.
01:38:49
Speaker
And then you talk about the, uh, the importance of having the opportunity to, you know, explain these to people and share these to people.
Closing and Promotions
01:38:56
Speaker
I do want to share that today is my birthday and the fact that I was able to hear these stories from you was more than enough of a gift that I could have received today. So thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and share all these wonderful experiences to me, Andrew J. Scotty, and all of our listeners.
01:39:11
Speaker
Oh, my pleasure. Happy birthday. Thank you. Do you have anything you'd like to plug? Anything that any future shows that we should be keeping an eye out for? Any Instagrams you should be following? Any Twitters we should be interacting with? Well, definitely come check me out on Instagram if you want. It's the there was an S censored backwards. I'll probably just spell it D E R O S N E C
01:39:39
Speaker
Um, that is my Instagram handle, but, uh, so if you're interested in, I mostly post drawings and, um, music related stuff there, but, um, but if that's something you're into, I'm also super easy to contact there if you wanted to ask me more questions. That's cool. Um, but, uh, as far as things to promote, I mean, definitely watch Duncanville. As I said, this season is really funny. Some of the stuff that's happening this year is, is great. I really hope we get a fourth season.
01:40:10
Speaker
and everyone rack up those numbers so they get to season four let's go watch it right now yeah please please no it's uh seriously seriously it is funny i'm not just saying that i'm i'm just so impressed with the season i can't stop talking but um
01:40:26
Speaker
But other than that, I mean, there's a short film that I cut called Requiem for a Crab that will be premiering on YouTube this Sunday, or Monday. I don't remember exactly. Oh, fun. Oh, exciting. But as of next week, if you type in Requiem for a Crab on YouTube, then that should pop up. And that one's, it's a dark comedy, but it is a hybrid live action animation. I kind of hesitate to give
01:40:55
Speaker
too much of the story, but an animated crab is involved. And it was a really fun show to work on. And if you like quirky, offbeat, dark comedies, then you will probably enjoy Requiem for a Crab. So there's that. Yeah, those are the two most exciting things from now. We will definitely add those to our list. Yes. You had me an animated crab. I was on board right then there. It reminded me of the one from Moana right away.
01:41:26
Speaker
Well, this is a very grumpy crab, but he's so beautifully animated, and it's a very sweet, insightful film, too, in the end. So yeah, I highly recommend checking that out.
01:41:40
Speaker
But yeah, we will definitely do that. Thank you so much again for joining us. Andrew, do you have any last things? No, definitely. Make sure to keep up with us on Instagram because I will be tagging Nina in our post when this all goes live so you can get all of her socials directly there. And that'll be a great way to share this with your friends so they can all hear how awesome this interview was. It went a little long because we just had a great time.
01:42:05
Speaker
and should probably address most of the eagle-eyed listeners or eagle-eared listeners. Jay Scottie had some internet problems about halfway through. So he was missing, but all of these questions were also his before you think he just disappeared into the ether. So thanks for helping as always, Jay Scottie, and thank you for doing the edit after this is done. But yeah, that's all I have. Zuhair, anything for you?
01:42:29
Speaker
I got to co-host on 323 with Reed Murphy a couple times. We did some animated talk there. We did some football draft talk there. A lot of fun time as usual. Got a lot of content coming out. Tis the season. Obi-Wan's coming out. Doctor Strange is out. Moon Knight is out. Please be kind. Watch your mouth. Don't blurt things on social media. But also go to StrandedPanda.com to check out all the shows that are covering all the content because there's lots of talk about and we can't do it all.
01:42:56
Speaker
So we will be continuing our Young Justice coverage before we talk about other stuff. Thank you again, Nina, for joining us. Tune in next time. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. And as always, stay whelmed. Until now, you have another interview, muscle muscle.
01:43:12
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash sbchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well. You're invited to take a vacation.
01:43:41
Speaker
from everybody else's vacation to a place where you can explore cypress swamps and magical gardens and see a 65 foot waterfall that once powered an old mill that you can walk through today. Or just float along the cool rushing waters of an old fashioned swimming hole. See the places and plan your journey at visitmississippi.org slash outdoor adventure, Mississippi. Wanderers welcome.
01:44:08
Speaker
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01:44:39
Speaker
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01:44:58
Speaker
Mary redeemed a $50,000 cash prize playing Chumba Casino online. I was only playing for fun, so winning was a dream come true. Chumba Casino is America's favorite free online social casino. You, too, could have the chance to win life-changing cash prizes. Absolutely anybody could be like Mary. Be like Mary. Log on to ChumbaCasino.com and play for free now. No purchase necessary. Void were prohibited by law. 18-plus terms and conditions apply. See website for details. The voice of the preceding commercial was not the actual voice of the winner.
01:45:29
Speaker
When you sign up for BP me rewards, you can get five cents off every gallon of gas every time at BP or Amaco stations. That means more savings and more whatever you'd like to use your savings on. So treat yourself. It's on us. Visit bp.com slash save to learn more.