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With Sean McDowell
108 Plays1 year ago
This week on PEP Talk, Andy chats with US author and speaker Sean McDowell about reaching students and young people with the gospel. What themes pervade the lives of young people on both sides of the Atlantic? From science to identity to the goodness of God, Sean provides insight into how we can equip our children and young people to respond well to these questions.
Sean McDowell is an Associate Professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University in California. He is a speaker and author, co-author, or editor of over twenty books including Rebel's Manifesto, Chasing Love, The Fate of the Apostles, So The Next Generation Will Know (with J. Warner Wallace) and Evidence that Demands a Verdict (with Josh McDowell). Find out more at seanmcdowell.org
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk featuring Sean McDowell
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, this persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. I'm Andy Bannister, and I am joined today by a guest all the way from the other side of the world. Most of our guests are often European, but today we have something quite special. We have a Californian for you today, all the way from the west coast of the USA.
Sean McDowell's Background and Mission
00:00:30
Speaker
Sean McDowell, welcome to Pep Talk.
00:00:33
Speaker
Andy, it's been way too long, my friend, honored to be here with you. It's great to have you. Now, look, there is much more to you than simply the fact you live in California. I realize that hasn't sold you short. So in a nutshell, who are you? Tell people hip-hop's not familiar with you, who you are and what you do.
00:00:50
Speaker
Sure. So I've been married to my high school sweetheart for 23 years. That's a big piece of me. I have three kids teach high school part-time, but I'm a full-time professor at Biola University. And really, I'm a communicator, whether it's on social media, blogs, books, speakings, YouTube channel.
Challenges of Communicating Faith to Youth
00:01:07
Speaker
My heart aligns with yours to defend the faith and advance the gospel.
00:01:13
Speaker
And for folks who are not familiar with Sean, with your staff, particularly because, you know, sometimes over here in the UK, we have different sets of voices and all, but do check out the show notes. We'll put a link to Sean's YouTube and other stuff, iPhone, come across your stuff, kicking around on Instagram and those kind of places. But Sean, one of the things that you have made a bit of a name, I guess, for yourself in recent years is someone who really has worked hard on figuring out how to communicate the gospel to the younger generation, make sure high school, university, students, you know, a whole set of challenges there
00:01:42
Speaker
in reaching that age group. So maybe actually why don't I kick off with that question? What are the challenges in reaching that generation? Are there particular issues that Christians we need to be aware of if we're going to think about engaging folks in their late teens, twenties, that kind of crowd?
00:01:58
Speaker
Broadly speaking, I think there's two ways to look at this. One, you might say, is the medium of the challenge, of course, being social media. And I'm not anti-social media. I use it. I love it. But social media can lead to a kind of distraction, so to speak. It can lead to a kind of skepticism because there's endless voices speaking into this generation.
00:02:20
Speaker
Many can start to wonder, can I really know anything? Because there's always some quote-unquote expert who's going to raise some different perspective.
Key Questions Facing Today's Youth
00:02:30
Speaker
So there's the medium, so to speak, that social media might challenge. But there's also the message. And when you look at the questions this generation is asking, they tend to be in a few categories. One would be things like the intersection of science and faith. And a lot of young people think, if I'm going to follow God, do I have to abandon science?
00:02:50
Speaker
And even though we've seen in recent days a certain challenging to the authority of science, it still reigns pretty high within this generation and beyond. So science and faith is one set of questions. Other questions are not so much about the truthfulness of Christianity, but the goodness of God. These are questions like the problem of evil, which of course is a timeless question. The problem of hell, we hear about kind of genocide, Old Testament violence.
00:03:17
Speaker
These kinds of moral questions are pressing this generation and questions like how can jesus be the only way. I think the third category in particular issues of sexuality and gender lgbtq questions come up all the time with this generation and it's not just an academic question like it's somewhat was for you and i grown up personal.
00:03:39
Speaker
It's their friends, it's their teammates.
Overcoming Fear in Discussing Faith
00:03:42
Speaker
So i would say science and faith questions on the exclusivity of jina jesus the morality of god and then third lgbtq questions are some of the most timely pressing questions this generation is dealing with.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would very much agree with you, I think, on this side of the Atlantic too. And certainly one of the shifts we've seen, I think, is, you know, whereas a previous generation might be asking questions of truth, you know, are these things, you know, a lot of younger people I encounter are asking, well, is Christianity bad because of its moral teachings? Let's take back that last one, the totally non-controversial, you know,
00:04:18
Speaker
I think the angle to come at that, given the nature of pep talk and folks listening, keen to think more about how they can share their faith effectively, look, Sean, lots of Christians I run into, and especially younger Christians, are just terrified of standing up for Christ at university, at high school, at work, because what they're afraid of is they'll be labelled one of those horrific adjectives, oh, you Christians,
00:04:40
Speaker
you're homophobic, you're Christians, you're transphobic. I think that stops many Christians even starting the conversation. What would you say to encourage, you know, perhaps students listening to this who are afraid of talking about faith in case this question comes? I mean, it's easy for you, right? You're a professor, you've got a shelf full of books, but you know, someone who's a teen, a young adult, wants to talk about Christ, afraid of this question, where would you encourage them to start and think and reflect?
00:05:05
Speaker
So I would say two things. Number one, I don't want to encourage these young people to know and believe that the sexual ethic of Jesus that is taught in Scriptures is right and it's good. And if they believe that, they are on the right side of history. Now, that's a whole other conversation we obviously don't have time to go into.
00:05:27
Speaker
A lot of times we pull back and we're afraid because we have this thought like maybe we're wrong about this maybe we're wrong about marriage. I've studied this hundreds of hours and i'm convinced that jesus taught that marriage is one man one woman one flesh one lifetime he also taught the goodness of singleness.
00:05:48
Speaker
And I think the sociological evidence backs up and says that this is what is best and right for society. So I want to encourage these young people that you are on the right side of history. Don't be shamed out of or threatened out of or honestly bullied out of holding a biblical view of sex and gender and marriage and love, et cetera.
00:06:12
Speaker
That is what Jesus held and it's right.
Confidence in Faith Conversations
00:06:15
Speaker
The second point is we've got to learn how to navigate these kinds of waters. So what I've found is the best thing to do is just respond with questions. Just simply ask questions. So people are talking about marriage. I'm really curious. How do you define marriage? Where does that definition come from?
00:06:33
Speaker
What is marriage? Is sexual difference key to marriage? Just asking questions and then when somebody presses back and says, wait a minute, you're one of those bigots and homophobes who holds this, say, you know what, that's a really serious charge that you're raising.
00:06:50
Speaker
I'd love to have that conversation with you over coffee in a different setting when we can hear each other out and maybe find some common ground and clarify where we differ. For now, I'm just asking questions because this is a cultural conversation that we're having.
00:07:08
Speaker
And I think it's important that we bring clarity. So I would invite students in class, in big groups, just ask questions. That's one of the best skills we can develop. You know this Andy, we have recorded 333 questions by Jesus and 262 questions by Paul.
00:07:24
Speaker
Asking questions is perhaps the best teaching method, best evangelism method. It's the best method I use on social media, but in classroom for a student, just asking good questions is the way I would navigate this. And if you feel pressed, the default is just simply say, you know what, these are such sensitive topics.
00:07:46
Speaker
I would love to have this conversation with you in person over coffee if you're willing to have this conversation with me. So yes, the biblical sexual ethic of Jesus is good, but don't feel like you have to take on an entire classroom and the entire sexual ethic of Jesus rests upon you.
00:08:06
Speaker
You don't have to carry that weight. Just ask questions publicly and then engage people individually in a way that Jesus often did in scripture as well.
00:08:17
Speaker
I think what I find helpful about that response, Sean, is the twofold aspect to it. I mean, starting with being confident that Jesus' sexual ethic is good, because I think you're right, some Christians do doubt this, right? If we've got any doubts in our own minds about the gospel, there's going to be a problem. And then, as you say, that soul listening, that conversational approach there can be, I think, really, really helpful, because I think it's very often, right, we feel that we have to have all of the answers and everything, sort of almost drop it on our friends like a truth bomb.
00:08:45
Speaker
and it's going to go badly badly badly wrong but let's let's talk about one of the other topics that uh that you raised there there's the there's the uh you mentioned i think the science question is one of the ones as well which i find interesting because you've got the sexual ethic which is more sort of bits and more touchy fairly but then you still have a hard nose
00:09:03
Speaker
questions doing the round. Don't you still have the sense, I think, that some Christian students feel that, gosh, we're a bit on the back foot here because, you know, our friends over here, our secular friends of all of this evidence and all this stuff over here, and all we have is Genesis and it looks a bit problematic. So again, a simple question to put to you with the LGBT one. So for again, if you've got a, you know, a Christian student in front of you who wants to be, you know, fired up and confident, talk about their faith, they're afraid because their friends are a bit sciency, what would
Approaches to Science and Faith Dialogue
00:09:30
Speaker
you say to encourage them? How would you help them think their way into
00:09:33
Speaker
some of those science type questions. Well, I would say a couple things. First off, this is an area that you can read and think and develop in. As a college student or high school student, you don't have to have all the answers on the age of the year, the intersection of evolution and the Christian faith. You don't have to have all that figured out.
00:09:53
Speaker
But engage this question because so much is at stake with it. The Bible begins with a question, is there a designer? And this affects almost every other issue. The second thing I would say is make sure we die on the right issue. So there's a lot of space within Orthodox Christianity, things like the age of the earth, the intersection of science and faith.
00:10:18
Speaker
And biblically speaking, we believe the scriptures are true. We believe that God is the creator. But how God does this, there's some areas to disagree here. So sometimes Christians feel threatened by certain scientific challenges. I want to take a step back and say, okay, what's the nature of that challenge? Is this overturning Christianity in an essential way or maybe just in a secondary way? So keep the main thing.
00:10:48
Speaker
the main thing but then again if you're in conversation with somebody the way you frame today somebody is more scientific client that you are just ask questions listen understand you can always go back and listen to a you can read a blog you can watch a video by somebody and then come back and engage that person again. Maybe they ask a question you don't know go back and do your homework engage that person again that's what you and i looking for people to have these conversations.
00:11:17
Speaker
And so don't be afraid again don't feel like you have to have it all figured out here's exactly how to explain. First few chapters and genesis here's exactly the relationship between what we think about evolution intelligent design or the universe you don't have to have that all figured out. Engage people in conversation you get asked a tough question go back and do some homework on this and then go engage the person and you are.
00:11:45
Speaker
demonstrating the love of Christ to this person, you're learning as you go and you're making a difference. So I guess in some, make sure you die on the main issue. There's some people who want to die on the issue of the age of the earth. That is not an issue we're dying on. That is not a primary issue. That's a secondary issue.
00:12:04
Speaker
and engage people in conversation get asked a tough question go back and do your homework more and keep the conversation going on and i guess the last thing i would say there's pot powerful positive evidence for design i would argue your life fine tuning origin of the universe there's a powerful case that can be made the more christians delve into this i think the greater their confidence grows.
00:12:29
Speaker
I think again great great advice there and I think there is something crucial isn't there about similar to that first question I asked about the LGBT stuff that so often if not careful, we can end up feeling we have to have all the answers, be ready for absolutely everything. And I think people and students that that is the crippling.
00:12:46
Speaker
issue. And I wonder actually, Sean, whether one of the issues there, and I'd love your thoughts on this, because you mentioned this issue near the top of the podcast, because we live in the age of the of the internet, right? There's all this stuff out there. And I think, you know, a lot of people have experienced that they've run into a skeptical friend who's just, you know, showered them with YouTube videos, you know, you spend time online, someone goes, well, hang on, how can you be a Christian? Here's a link to a YouTube video. Here's, you know, here's an atheist saying this, and here's an atheist deconstructing this, and it feels like
00:13:12
Speaker
There's all this weight of stuff out there that unless you have an answer to or the other danger is I sometimes feel that all you do is respond with YouTube links. So, you know, they, they share their atheist link. You know, so you come and share your Sean McDowell link and it's just everyone's YouTube videos at each other and so much noise on the internet. You got any advice for perhaps how we do evangelism in a digital age where we can actually get some conversation and some depth going rather than just, you know, shouting at one another on the internet or just firing YouTube video links at one another.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah, if somebody sends me eight video links, which happens sometimes, I'll be honest, I'm not going to watch all eight. That's kind of a sign for me. This person doesn't want to have a conversation. So I would honestly do one of two things. When somebody just sends me a ton of links, sometimes I just delete it. I'm like, wait a minute, this person is just trying to overwhelm me, send a million links. Now I'm in somewhat of a unique situation. I have people sending me stuff like daily, they want me to watch. But at times, if it's somebody I can engage, they'll send a bunch and I'll say, okay,
00:14:12
Speaker
Honestly, I'm not able to watch all eight, but I would love to fall up and have a conversation with you. Which one video do you think is most telling of where you stand? Let me watch this one. And then let's either talk over Zoom if we're not there in person, or let's get some coffee and discuss this together. Just narrow it down. And then the person says, okay, actually watch this video. I'll watch it.
00:14:37
Speaker
And then before i meet with that person i'll spend some time thinking okay do i have an answer for this find an answer coming ready not to win a debate with this person but to just say hey i watch this video here's some positive things that i got from it this is really interesting here's some questions i have for you about the video not to win an argument to have a conversation to learn to show love for this person but to
00:15:02
Speaker
slowly, step by step, start advancing truth. That's how I would engage the person. So if somebody sends eight, you might say, hey, send me one
The Role of Face-to-Face Conversations in Evangelism
00:15:11
Speaker
that you think is most important. I'm going to send you one. Let's each watch these videos, come together and just talk about it. Wow. Imagine if more Christians were just doing that.
00:15:24
Speaker
What I find interesting in that, Sean, in every answer actually so far, including that one, you've brought about to conversation, that what you're trying to do is get conversation going. That seems to be the heart of your approach to evangelism. Why is conversation so important for you? Why is that where you want to take people?
00:15:42
Speaker
Well, I do evangelism from stage sometimes. I do it in books. There's different ways. But when you're talking about such sensitive topics with people, rarely in my experience do these things take place well on social media.
00:15:57
Speaker
They just don't. I think we can share videos and we can ask questions. I love social media. But when you get face to face with somebody, the whole nature of the conversation changes. It's harder to demonize somebody. It's harder to straw man somebody. And I think it's really showing care for somebody. I mean, Jesus met with people personally. So there's something incarnational about that that changes the nature of the conversation.
00:16:24
Speaker
So yeah, that's where I push things with people. I love Christians regularly to be taking people to coffee and talking and sharing and listening and ultimately with the goal of evangelism, but also just to love our neighbors.
00:16:40
Speaker
I also think as well, quite honestly, most people are not interested in arguments apart from a small subset of society. If you grab a stranger in the street or on the campus and say, hey, would you like an argument? Most people, if you say, hey, and a discussion, a conversation, most people are open.
00:16:56
Speaker
So that and there was a survey done recently in the UK. Actually, it was quite interesting. Although a very secular culture, it will be willing to have a conversation about spiritual things with a Christian if it was that sort of conversational stuff, I think was north of 80% of the hour.
Churches and Parents in Youth Faith Development
00:17:10
Speaker
So that it was a very positive result. The people, Brits, particularly, I'm sure, you know, there are similarities in our cultures.
00:17:16
Speaker
I've gone on to conversation, what they don't like is the perception that religious people are shouty and argumentative, that we're just going to go in there and bash them around the head of the Bible, if we can convince people there's a relational component. But the last question for you as we're approaching the kind of 20-minute mark, so we've talked about young people themselves and you've offered some great advice for those who are younger, listening, perhaps, and how to engage their friends and think about things, but we also have quite a lot of pastors and church leaders, youth leaders listen to this. How can churches better equip
00:17:45
Speaker
young people or best equip young people in your experience of doing this for years, to be ready to be great evangelists, great ambassadors for Christ on their campuses. Because it's tough going it alone. If you're a Christian young person, it's great to know that your church is helping you. If you've got any advice for church leaders on what they could be doing to really set young people up to do this as well as possible.
00:18:07
Speaker
The most effective churches I've seen doing this worldwide are those who from the top, the leader values the next generation and instills a sense that this is important from the stage with resources, with time, we are equipping and reaching the next generation and apologetics worldview must be a piece of that. So to really effectively do it in the church, number one, it starts from the top down.
00:18:33
Speaker
Second, all the data shows, Andy, that I've ever seen is that the primary influence in the life of a young person is their parents. Hands down, since 1972, that's what the data consistently shows. So if you want to equip young people, you've got to train parents to do this well. So from the top, train parents. Number three, we've got to start young. We've got to start young.
00:19:02
Speaker
young. If you do it in high school, so many times, at least in my country, they'll have like an apologetics Bible class right before college. We want to train these students before they go to university. That's fine. But if that's when you do apologetics, in most cases, it's way, way too late. So from the top, equip parents, start young. And if you do that, I think just like you said, non-believers are interested in these kinds of conversations.
00:19:32
Speaker
I think students come alive when we do this in the right way with young people. They want to ask these questions.
00:19:41
Speaker
And actually on that very note, I know that you're the parent of three kids, you said? That's right. I'm the parent of two. So, you know, we've lived this stuff out. Final, final, final question. How have some of this played out for you and your wife as a family? What are some of the things that you found have been really helpful in engaging your kids? I think you're absolutely right. This begins in the home. Too often as Christians, we can be tempted to assume it's the church's job.
00:20:05
Speaker
to like train and equip our kids. I totally agree with you. So what have you found works well around the McDowell kitchen table in terms of your own kids and your own family?
00:20:16
Speaker
One example, my oldest is 19 years old. And when he was 14, he wanted to see this movie about the rock band Bohemian Rhapsody, about the rock band Queen. And there were some objectionable content in it, PG-13, but he's 14. I thought, you know what? He's old enough. Let's do this. So he asked me to go. I said, sure, I'll spend a lot of money, take you in a friend, and buy popcorn and drinks if under one condition.
00:20:42
Speaker
We're done. We just come back home and just sit down. I just want to know what you think about this. You go, sure dad. So we go to the movie, come back, sit down probably 20, 30 minutes. And I said, Hey buddy, what'd you think about the movie? What was your favorite scene? Did anything surprise you in the movie?
00:20:57
Speaker
Then I said, hey, as Christians, is there anything in this film that we can agree with and celebrate? Then I said, are there any things that gave you pause that when we look at this movie, we think, yes, Christians, not sure we can get on board with this. My last question was, was there any time in this movie you felt you were being preached at? And in the context of relationship,
00:21:19
Speaker
we had this conversation and the bottom line here's what the research shows if you want to pass on your face. Three things number one you've got a model it you have to live an authentic face number two you have to build real intimate warm relationships with your kids and number three have regular on going conversations about world view apologetic spiritual
Conclusion and Resources
00:21:44
Speaker
issues.
00:21:44
Speaker
There's no formula with passing on the faith because people have free will. But if there were a formula, it would be live it, relationships, and engage in spiritual conversations. That's the best things we can do if we care about passing on our faith to our kids.
00:22:02
Speaker
Fantastic staff, and I think a great point to bring the conversation to a close. Sean, it's been an absolute pleasure. Really grateful for you taking the time to join us from the side of the world. If people want to find out more about you and your books, your ministry, the stuff you do, is there a website they should go to? Where's the best place they can go to find out more about what you do?
00:22:20
Speaker
Yeah, the hub would just be seanmcdowell.org, but that has links to Twitter, links to Instagram. I have a YouTube channel, a bunch of different books and a blog speaking schedule, have not yet spoken in the UK, have wanted to forever. Maybe at some point we'll make that work out. I remember going with my dad when he was younger and loving it.
00:22:43
Speaker
But, uh, so that'd be a long travel to see me speak, but bottom line, Sean McDowell.org links to the different kinds of resources that are out there that might, might help folks. Fantastic. There you go. Sean McDowell.org will also put a link in the show notes. And so once again, Sean, thank you so much. It's been great having you on pep talk. Thanks, Andy.
00:23:01
Speaker
Okay, and for all of you listening at home or on the car or on your run, wherever you're catching this podcast, I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Sean and I will be back in two weeks time with another guest and another episode of Pet Talk. Thanks for listening.