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216 - The Wolfman (2010) w/ Jim Rohner
50 Plays1 month ago
“Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms, and the autumn moon is bright.”
With Leigh Whannell’s update of the classic Universal Monster movie set to drop this weekend, we’re chatting about the last time Universal tried to reboot the classic monster! And we’re joined by returning guest Jim Rohner, formerly of the Cast of Cthulhu, who joins us to chat about Joe Johnston’s late arrival on this film and subsequent difficulties, favorite music video directors, the Dark Universe, and finding the heart of the Universal Monsters franchise.
“A man who’s pure of heart”? Sounds like our buddy Jim Rohner! Check him out at the following locations:
- @nolanfixesteeth on Bluesky
- Dig into the Cast of Cthulhu back catalog wherever you get podcasts
- Make sure to listen to the Cast of Cthulhu At the Mountains of Madness Virtual Table Read from 2021 featuring performances from both Stephen and Brett!
Where does the man begin and the beast end? Follow us on these social media platforms to find out:
- @Disenfranchpod on Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, Letterboxd, and YouTube.
- Email us your thoughts or requests to disenfranchpod@gmail.com
- Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify!
- Find Stephen at @ChewyWalrus on Bluesky, Instagram, and Letterboxd.
- Check out Stephen’s first novel - Check In, Check Out - on Amazon, now available in paperback or ebook: https://amzn.to/44idk8y
- Find Brett at @sus_warlock on Instagram and Letterboxd, and @suswarlock on Blusky.
- Find Tucker at @icenine09 on YouTube and Instagram and @tuck_mugs on Instagram.
- Join our Patreon for exclusive bonus content, including bi-weekly episodes of What Are We Watching? at https://patreon.com/Disenfranchpod
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Transcript
Introduction to Failed Franchises
00:00:21
Speaker
A franchise right alone will make us rich beyond our wildest dreams. Even a man who is pure at heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolf spain blooms and the autumn moon is the disenfranchised podcast. That's right, we're that podcast all about those franchises of one, those films that fancy themselves full-fledged franchises before falling flat on their face after the first film. I'm your host, Stephen Foxworthy, and joining me, as always, the stalwart man myth and legend that is Tucker. Hey, Tucker.
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello, Steven. How are you doing? I am well, sir. How about yourself? I'm doing OK.
Stephen's Coffee Mug Judgement
00:01:01
Speaker
I've got this big old cup. I brought this cup for this very occasion because I don't like this movie very much. So mood says a radiate positivity.
00:01:12
Speaker
And then good vibes, good vibes, man. I know they're being held up by sloths. Is that am I? I guess so. This is my roommates. I would never own anything. like I was going to say it doesn't seem like you're kind of fair, honestly, but I'm glad it's here for this evening because it helps me out. And also it's a big coffee mug.
00:01:31
Speaker
So while I'm like judging you guys for your opinions, you'll be able to tell because I'll be taking sips out of a big coffee mug. And big coffee mugs are the easiest drinking thing that you can convey judginess with. Like check this out, watch. And of course at that moment his screen freezes so I don't see the sip. ah It was great.
00:01:55
Speaker
I imagine it was. I have to imagine it was. But we are not alone, despite the fact that our good friend Brett Wright did run off into the woods a while ago and has not yet returned. ah We wish him a speedy return. ah But in his stead, um formerly of the cast of Cthulhu, good friend of the show, returning guest back after ah National Lampoon's loaded weapon one and Little Monsters.
Welcoming Jim and Discussing 'The Wolfman'
00:02:19
Speaker
It's our good buddy, Jim Roner. Jim, welcome back.
00:02:23
Speaker
I wow, I remembered loaded weapon one. I totally forgot that I was here for little monsters as well. um And I I'm just I'm having a bit of an existential crisis because I thought we were talking about George Clooney and Brad Pitt's wolves and I am woefully unprepared. So I'm just going to wing it. So I'm assuming there's some type of man who turns into a a wolf in the movie where we're discussing tonight. I believe so. Let me check my notes here. ah It looks like tonight we are covering not 2024's Wolf's future episode of this podcast, by the way. Absolutely one we're gonna cover. yeah ah But instead, we are covering 2010's The Wolfman.
00:03:06
Speaker
ah directed by ah Joe Johnston, ah the the journeyman of Hollywood, Joe Johnston, ah written by, who's who's credit on this one, Andrew Kevin Walker and David Self, and starring Benicio del Toro, Anthony Hopkins, Emily Blunt, Hugo Weaving, Geraldine Chaplin, Art Malik, and if you watch the um director's extended cut, Max von Sydow.
00:03:34
Speaker
yeah do I didn't watch the director's cut. i think it where Where is it available? Is it only on like the Blu-ray or is it online somewhere? Steven, you own this movie? No. nos this is a This was a borrow. this This was a borrow. Although, I will say for the record, werewolves are my favorite movie monster. I love werewolves.
00:04:00
Speaker
kind but And so i there is a part of me that went into this movie hoping for a secret masterpiece. There is a part of me that does kind of have an affection for some of the things in this movie because of the werewolfiness of them. But I am sorry to say this this one's not a secret masterpiece. This one is not the secret masterpiece I was hoping for. It's bad as hell and not in a good way.
00:04:26
Speaker
See, and I didn't I didn't think it was bad as hell. I just thought it was aggressively mediocre with a little with little hints of greatness. You know, when I finished this movie and I started watching the credits and I was thinking to myself, what's what's one positive thing? What was one thing that I liked about this movie? I couldn't think of anything. you thought The fact that it was over, that it's finite, that it only lasted.
Critiques and Mixed Feelings
00:04:55
Speaker
an hour and 45 minutes so i did something i i never do unless a movie is really really bad and i i i turned it off without watching the credits you guys i didn't watch the credits to this movie sinner and that's so few films does that happen it has to i have to really hate it to be like angry at the people who made it for for making me look at it Uh, did I just turned it off? I couldn't believe it. I was, yeah, I was a little shocked. I can't remember the last time I didn't watch the credits because I'm like, well, this movie sucked, but you know, the grips and stuff there. They deserve some credit and the lighting guys and the best boy, but not for this movie. No, no. Fuck all those guys. Yikes. For being a part of this movie.
00:05:42
Speaker
i'm Jim, you you were you requested to come on to talk about this movie. what ah What is it about this movie? Okay, well, I'm of two minds ah just based on Vincent's opinions. um That's Vincent! Two roads diverged in the yellow wood. Inside you there are two wolves. Part of part of me wants to take the path of really defending this movie to see how frequently and how deeply Vincent can sip from that deep cut over this episode.
00:06:18
Speaker
Um, like could i just be it from now on, can I just be me, Steven? If you want, if you want to have another opportunity to ask, who am I here? Then by all means you're right. Yes. Confuse me more. All right. I'm now officially Vincent for the purposes of this podcast.
00:06:35
Speaker
i
00:06:38
Speaker
Um, or I could take the actual. path I was going to take and which is much more in line with Stevens opinion of this is such a mediocre forgettable movie that i I, I would be surprised if anyone felt strongly one way or the other like it doesn't deserve strong feelings.
00:07:00
Speaker
um and ah that which is miles away, not miles away necessarily, but which is far away from where I was in 2010 when I first saw this movie thinking it was like, oh, this is actually pretty good and sort of underappreciated. Considering the circumstances, which was three weeks before principal photography, Mark Romanek dropped out and Joe Johnson had to take it over.
00:07:23
Speaker
ah and And you know what, if if I may, just for a second, since you mentioned him and we might might not mention him again, ah Mark Romanek is my favorite music video director. to Excellent. Of all time, all time.
00:07:42
Speaker
And he's the goat. I mean, people like Spike Jones. I get it. People like Michelle Gondry. I get it. But Mark Roman Romanick. And so like, I'm kind of glad he didn't direct this, because I don't think it would have been better.
00:07:57
Speaker
i I think it would have been more interesting and better in some ways. And i mean and I'll say, I understand your opinion between Johnny Cash's Hurt, Audioslave's Cochise, and Weezer's El Scorcho. Those are yeah untouchable in terms of music video quality.
00:08:19
Speaker
um And I think what he would have brought to this was a little bit more of a, I don't even want to say directorial flair, but I will. Why don't we start at the beginning? And I don't know how you guys typically do things, so I'm going to hijack this. um Do it, please. Please do go. At the very beginning, you have the sequence where. um ah We have our first victim who is killed by the werewolf and.
00:08:46
Speaker
What struck me about that opening sequence is how there's no atmosphere or buildup or tension to it. It's like a guy running through the woods. There's a couple shots. We see a werewolf and he kills a guy and then it's like, ah, credits. Here's our movie. But there's no atmosphere, no buildup to it, no kind of like.
00:09:05
Speaker
there's There's not enough time to kind of feel like you're part of a world or like a vibe. It just kind of is. And and all throughout this movie, everything just feels like it is. And Joe Johnston is a serviceable director. Captain America, the first Avenger, I really liked. The Rocketeer, come on. yeah But like, you just kind of get the sense and once again, he came in three weeks before the film is going to be done, but you just kind of get the sense that he's just kind of shooting what's on the page as opposed to i am adding anything to
Director Changes and Creative Challenges
00:09:35
Speaker
it. So while I don't necessarily think because this script is also not good. um But what I think Roman could have brought to it was a bit more of just kind of
00:09:46
Speaker
And I hate to sound like Gen Alpha, but like vibes or a feeling, just like kind of getting the sense of like, I feel like I'm in a world. There's so many things that are in this movie that have no flair, no inspiration, no real kind of like, you get the sense this was done by a workman or a yeoman style director. um Because even like the sequence in the pub, when we kind of are hearing the people talk about um You know, the old guys around the table and then you have that one old guy who's like, Oh, let me tell you, it's actually the werewolf kind of thing. Um, it's just like shot, reverse shot, shot, reverse shot. This guy, master shot being like, we're out. Like there's, there's nothing, it it's just kind of like, here's a character. Here's a plot hero characters. Here's a setting.
00:10:37
Speaker
jazz hands. like It's painfully by the numbers. Painfully by the numbers. It it absolutely is. And so you know no director can elevate a mediocre script, but I would have liked to to to see what Roman could do to it. Because if there is any through line through his music videos, they're all shot fantastically. like The way that he uses lighting, the way that he uses shadow, like they there're He's a very talented director and Joe Johnson, a serviceable director, but not one that you necessarily like see something like, oh, that's that's a Joe Johnson flick. Exactly. I think i think you have to give Joe Johnson something that's good.
00:11:19
Speaker
And like the rocketeer, for example, and he can make it great. But if you give him something that's not great, and like you were saying, he came into it so late into the process that even if he could add some kind of flair to it, he has no time to sit with it and like decide what that's going to be. yeah So he was like good or bad. Joe Johnson, he was fucked from the start, basically.
00:11:44
Speaker
He is, and and I said this in my letterbox review, he is a modern-day Victor Fleming. He is the guy that you just kind of bring onto your pick, because the two best movies that Victor Fleming ever made, the two that he's best known for, are ones that he was brought in as a ringer halfway through production.
00:12:03
Speaker
It's the Wizard of Oz, and it's Gone with the Wind. Those are the two that you know Victor Fleming from. But he he's a journeyman. He's a studio guy. He would come in. He would do whatever the studio wanted to do. You need a firm hand. You need someone to slap Judy Garland. I'm your man. You need someone that can like cut Clark Gable so that he like behaves. I'm your guy. like That was Fleming. That was what he did. And Johnston strikes me as one of those just guys that you bring in in a pinch to do the work. Like, we talked about this a little bit on The Nutcracker and the Four Realms. He's brought in after ah the actual director, Lassa Halstrom, is kind of ousted from that movie. He's brought in to basically back clean up and just finish the job. Like, he's the guy that you bring in if you want something done on time and under budget. Let's call Joe. He's gonna make it happen.
00:12:52
Speaker
And every now and again, there's there's a real banger in his filmography. And then there are some that are just like, like let's let's go through it. Honey, I shrunk the kids in 89. The Rocketeer in 91. So he starts as kind of a Disney guy. He does the live action segments or sections of the page master in 1994.
00:13:16
Speaker
um He does Jumanji in 95. yeah Future episode of this podcast, Jumanji, because it turns out they actually had an idea for a sequel. There you go. 1999, he does a movie filmed in our very own hometown, Tucker of Indianapolis, Indiana, October Sky, a word with Jake Gyllenhaal and Laura Dern. ah In 2001, he directs the second best Jurassic Park movie, Jurassic Park 3.
00:13:47
Speaker
Steven, it's not even April yet. What are you talking about? um In 2004, it's worth mentioning you were saying like, he's kind of the clutch guy, you bring him in, like, we're like, we need somebody, we're ready to go. And like, some shit happened. We get get Joe Johnston. But what about Jurassic Park three, though? He'd been trying to direct a Jurassic Park since the sequel.
00:14:12
Speaker
And I feel like Jurassic Park 3, unfortunately, is his baby. and And here's the thing. He's coming off of a string of movies where he's gone in, done the work. And regardless of how we feel about them, there have been some pretty good returns on those films. Like those films do well enough that that is his probably his blank check, as it were. true um And then we get. Bless you again.
00:14:41
Speaker
In 2004, we get Hidalgo. Oh, that was animated, right? No, that's no you're thinking of Simran, the spirit of the stallion or whatever. I've never thought of that. Viggo Mortensen in a horse. like I don't know what the fuck that is. That's Viggo Mortensen in a horse is a big follow-up to Lord of the Rings. The Scorsese one that's animated. Isn't there a Scorsese one that's animated that's a kid's movie? A Hugo. Is that... I thought that's what we were talking about.
00:15:11
Speaker
No, Hidalgo. This is the Wolfman. Oh, the Wolfman. Wolf. Yeah, I was. Which is Joe Johnson's follow up to Hidalgo. Yeah. And then at on on the back of this movie, he gets Captain America, the first Avenger.
00:15:29
Speaker
Really good. i I really like that movie. Yeah, he came in and did it. Like he usually does. I was going to say that movie has more in common, I think, with his probably his best film, The Rocketeer than with anything else in his filmography. Which I think is why he's really able to kind of bring that home is because up to this point, with a couple of exceptions, he's a period piece guy.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah. um And then he does Not Safe for Work and then comes in to basically back clean up on The Nutcracker and the Four Realms and has not directed a movie since. Well, that was what, 2018? Yes. What is Not Safe for Work? Not Safe for Work, according to IMDB. I saw that video store. It came out around like 2013-ish. An office worker is trapped inside a building where a killer is on the loose, comes out 2014. I want to see that.
00:16:22
Speaker
ah Michael Gladys, Max Mingella, son of Anthony Mingella. And those are the only two people in this cast that I've heard of. Oh, I thought you'd say the only two people in the cast. And I was like, no, I'm really intrigued. I'm looking at it the IMDB page for it, and I'm still not convinced this is a real movie. Right. It's an hour, 14 minutes long.
00:16:47
Speaker
I mean that counts. That's almost, that's 70 minutes. 70 minutes is technically a feature. Yeah, technically a feature. They just made it with credits. They just made it. Just under the wire there. Correct me if I'm wrong, getting back to the Joe Johnson of it all. Yes. I feel like in my head and I can't corroborate this because it's in my head.
00:17:10
Speaker
um Wasn't at one point Joe Johnson kind of floated out there as like the next Spielberg or like a Spielbergian type of guy because of the Rocketeer? That would not.
00:17:22
Speaker
that would not surprise me because everybody at some point gets floated as like the next Spielberg anyone with like a couple of hits under their belt. That's true. But he's I mean, he got his start working on he was an effects guy working on Star Wars. Yeah.
Joe Johnston's Career and Industry Changes
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So I mean, you exactly, which is probably how he gets plugged in with Disney in the first place to do. Honey, I shrunk the kids to do um ah The Rocketeer, um which again was a very big deal for, you know, some of us in our generation, but it's not really like a big colossal hit that spawned the franchise. They were clearly hoping it would. Right. So. And of course, if you don't have The Rocketeer, you don't have the seminal Sky Captain World of Tomorrow, which just set the world on fire. Future episode of this podcast. Yes. I'd love to revisit that because I hated it when I saw it. I bought it blind because I was like, this is for me.
00:18:19
Speaker
On paper, it very much does seem like a Tucker movie. So I don't mind you. You know, it's funny. um I'm just thinking about this. Anyone who who has been dubbed as like the next Spielberg or kind of connected to that, like if if Joe Johnson truly was one of those people, what ended up happening to him? They said that about J.J. Abrams. Look at what ended up happening to his film, like in career. What's his face? Colin Trevor, I was handpicked by Spielberg to do Jurassic World. Look what happened to him. Like it's kind of like M. Night Shyamalan, the same. Right. Toby Hooper.
00:18:50
Speaker
Was that really a thing? I don't know. He didn't really do much after that. like So I feel like what, the toolbox murders or is that Carpenter? No, that was October. OK. Yeah, he didn't really. do Plus, i so I think also Texas Chainsaw, too, was after Poltergeist, if I recall correctly. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. So because it was over a decade after. Yeah. You you remove that blaspheme from your mouth. Good sir. It is gone. But ah Yeah, so maybe use so you don't want to be dubbed the next Spielberg. Well, and I think it's just kind of an easy thing to tack on to a young filmmaker who's coming out and kind of starting a career, particularly one who makes a movie that has kind of this certain perspective to it, that kind of that thing that Spielberg was doing very early in his career, a lot of, ah you know, daddy issues, a lot of kind of wide eyed magical innocence kind of stuff.
00:19:47
Speaker
um which all the people that you just mentioned kind of had in spades with their first films. And Johnson with the Rocketeer kind of fits that kind of emotional vibe. So again, does not surprise me at all if that's something he was strapped with and like all the others have failed to live up to. because in this Particularly in this day and age, there's never going to be another Spielberg because no one else is ever going to get the shots that Spielberg got.
00:20:12
Speaker
can and no yeah And no studio or whatever the semblance of studios are going to be in the next generation are going to want to take risks on someone who was like a Spielberg. I mean can you imagine someone giving money to make Jaws say or like even hell even like West Side Story which is somewhat recently and a fucking fantastic movie but also like Oh yeah, we'll give you money to remake one of the greatest American like musicals and films like that existed in history. Like no, no one's going to want to do that because instead we're going to get, I don't want to go down a tirade of, of studios and IPs and all that kind of stuff. We're talking about the Wolfman, right? ah we are Speaking of IP, yes, we're talking about the Wolfman. But wait, but wait. So from what I know ah from Spielberg, which is I've seen the Fablemans, so that's,
00:21:06
Speaker
what I know is that he was kind of at the right place at the right time and he's also really good at it. So it's talent and luck colliding like in the perfect storm. There's not another filmmaker that has hit exactly when they needed to fucking hit. like I mean, that's every show of his career, though. It's not just talent. The most talented actors in Hollywood are the ones waiting tables and like washing cars.
00:21:34
Speaker
Like, that's just the way it is. it Luck has so much more to do with it than most people are willing to concede. Yeah, dude, yeah. I mean, even even a ah poker players, the lore behind it is like, I'd rather be lucky than good when it comes to, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. Yeah. And to bring it back to the Wolfman, I think um him and Joe Johnston were just pals because every time I'm retold,
00:22:00
Speaker
through YouTube videos or whatever, the story of Jurassic Park 3, it makes it seem like they had been buddies like since the first one. Because the story always is that Joe Johnston's bugging him to direct the next Jurassic Park movie. Right. And finally, he gets to do the third one. So I think they were just buddies.
00:22:19
Speaker
Probably. I mean, again, there're theirre connection they've got the Lucas connection. so i'm sure And all those guys kind of hung out and knew each other. It just stands to reason that that's one of those, all right, I'll do a favor for Joe kind of things.
00:22:34
Speaker
yeah Yeah, for sure. I really want to dig into Tucker, who is not Vincent. And I apologize for calling you Vincent. That's OK. I like getting new names. When your handle is that's Vincent, what am I supposed to assume? That that's Vincent? You obviously haven't seen 2005's House of Wax, obviously.
00:22:57
Speaker
You're OK. You're good. Come on. But you are correct. I have not seen 2005. That's too bad you should look at it. It's actually, it is a bit fun. I'm not going to lie. I don't think you just phrase it as you should look at it instead of you should watch it. Like, no, I'll just kind of, you know, put it on. Have a glance at it, you know? Well, I mean, you are a father, so your role is going to be standing in the back of the room with your hand on your hips, just watching whatever's on TV. And not really watching, but just kind of looking at what's on TV. So, yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
Funnily enough, when when my father was alive and he used to call the house asking to talk to my mom, he wouldn't say, let me talk to your mom. He'd say, let me talk at her. So connected to which, which also everything you need to know about how my dad.
00:23:39
Speaker
communicate with people. But I'm i'm really curious as to, because once again, Steven and I seem to be on the same page of like, this movie is so utterly forgettable to the to the extent of I watched this movie two days ago and I forgot that I watched it. So I want to know, let's let's start with like one, because it's ask why you hate something. But I guess like what's, if you could point to just one thing straight, like the thing you feel strongly about, or the most strongly about like, where your hate is derived from, what is it?
00:24:10
Speaker
Well, that's difficult question. And I'll tell you why. It's because I hate everything about this movie, like pretty equally. Of course, there are things that stick out like the terrible CGI and not just not just the creature effects and the gore, but the trees. The first shot of this movie is through a CGI tree.
00:24:34
Speaker
the first shot is through a really shitty CGI tree and that is not how you you can't if you if you're gonna have shitty CGI build up some rapport with the audience first so that when they see it they're like oh that sucks but oh yo I'm still into this no dude you don't start with the shitty CGI ice shot I had a hope. I had a real hope because this movie starts on the moon and just starts pulling back. And the three branches kind of start to form a W in the middle of the moon. And I'm like, are we going to get the title of this movie spelled out in tree branches? Because I'm kind of into it. And then no, we don't do that.
00:25:13
Speaker
just a shitty CGI tree so rubbery so just it's not even there and it sucks another thing that really stood out was why the fuck is Benicio del Toro in this movie okay apparently i i why and living in I'm glad. I'm a big fan of a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I want to portray them on screen in a $200 million dollars fucking movie. But it makes sense. It's one of those things that makes sense on paper because del Toro is one of our sworthiest actors. And just to see him like it feels like a slam dunk. We got Benicio del Toro to play the wolf man. Like this could be.
00:25:54
Speaker
It could be a slam dunk, and the way you do that is you do a modernized remake. If you make this take place in New York City or Chicago, Benicio's your man. That is your modern day Larry Talbert.
00:26:09
Speaker
So you want Benicio del Toro in Wolf? Mike Nichols' Wolf is what you're asking. No, because Jack Nicholson's so ridiculous, I don't want to replace him. I love that movie because it's as bad as this movie, but in the best possible ways. i like nick is Wolf is amazing. I love Wolf. I adore Mike Nichols. Me too. Oh, I love that movie so much.
00:26:29
Speaker
so um but know it it is It is weird though because it's not just like we got Benicio del Toro like I believe it's producer Benicio del Toro because it's something he wanted to make for like a decade or something. Very much a Nick Cage ghost writer sort of deal.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yes, yes. And i will i I won't say I will defend Benicio del Toro in this movie so much as I will say, when it comes to playing a character who seems really beaten down by the world and the family legacy and the truth that he has stumbled upon, Benicio del Toro has a look and a demeanor, which is like, yeah, this man is tired and beaten down like he's he just has the look about him but it's also like hey you need to believe that this um uh latin or or latino actor is also the son of anthony hopkins which like i'm sorry what
00:27:26
Speaker
no Well, it wouldn't be the first. Do remember remember Anthony Hopkins in Zorro? He just shows up in things where a white guy doesn't belong. And he's just like, yeah, I'm straight up Spanish or Mexican, either or. That's me, Anthony Hopkins, Spanish or Mexican. He's our generation Sean Connery. You look at Sean Connery in um Highlander.
00:27:50
Speaker
where he is he's a sp he's a an Egyptian who is masquerading as a Spaniard with the biggest Scottish accent anyone's ever had. Or i'm a submarine commander. Hunt for Red October, Russian submarine commander, who again, thickest Scottish accent anyone's ever had. like Somehow does not take away from the greatness of that movie, like at all. No, that movie is damn near perfect. um Hunt for Red October is a fucking masterpiece. You heard it here first.
00:28:19
Speaker
um Or maybe you didn't, maybe you heard it other places, because frankly, you should be hearing it more more places. Correct. um But like Anthony Hopkins is is basically kind of assumed that role. He he does Don Diego de la Vega in Zorro. he He's playing this role here. like he is just He's one of those guys shorthand for gravitas. We need someone in here to just come in and just be authoritative for a few
Performances and Cinematic Style
00:28:43
Speaker
scenes. We call anthony we call Tony.
00:28:45
Speaker
And he is, at least at this point in his career, probably slipped into his NAR period, which is when he would take a script and if he can like read his scenes and he just writes NAR, which stands for no acting required.
00:29:01
Speaker
And he'll just, and if if he, didn' yeah, and he just comes in and he knows exactly what he has to do. Like Thor was one of those movies for him where he just shows up and he's just like, I know, I know what this is. Like I don't have to act this. Yeah. He's, he's also probably the best part of this movie. Like it really seems like he's either.
00:29:21
Speaker
not caring, having a lot of fun, or is having a lot of fun because he doesn't care. um I think it's the latter. He's like, I can't believe how much they're paying me to do this l lol. And that's his entire performance. Right. And AR, AR, AR.
00:29:37
Speaker
And Dark Universe adjacent, a wonderful Van Helsing in Coppola's Dracula, I feel. Yes, absolutely. yeah again what And he's actually putting on an accent in that movie. He's giving very good accent in that movie. Take that, Sean Connery. Speaking of Van Helsing, if you're going to do this color palette with shitty CGI, ah take Lessons from Van Helsing with right with ah Hugh Jackman, not this movie.
00:30:04
Speaker
because this movie is so dull looking. It is. It's so bland looking. There's no color anywhere. And when there is, it doesn't make sense. And if you want that kind of shit, that color palette, but for it to be exciting, just go watch Van Helsing.
00:30:22
Speaker
Well, and i I feel like every movie now is just so desaturated and so like um void of anything that might make it visually interesting or arresting. um Like even Wicked, a movie that is supposed to be like technicolor brilliance is just completely like sapped of of of its luster, which is a bummer.
00:30:40
Speaker
like it's not this' bad but yeah there's no way this wasn't shot on digital this wasn't shot on film this is i right i have to imagine this is it has to be like everything like some movies it doesn't it doesn't stand out But in this movie, it just looks, all looks so digital to the point to where like, I don't know what's green screen and what is it most of the time. Cause it all looks so like smooth and unrealistically smooth and clean. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, this, the, the, it was a negative format. It was 35 millimeter. Really? Yeah. Now, I mean, there, there was a, ah a,
00:31:24
Speaker
a 2K digital intermediate ah process on it. But I also I also this was I wanted to put a pin in this and then get back to it when um um you were talking about the the makeup effect and how bad they were. um I believe what you mean is the Oscar winning um makeup effects by Rick Baker, which is bad, which I will make shots fired here.
00:31:53
Speaker
I will kind of defend because I don't think the Wolfman makeup is great, but I think it does harken back a little bit to the simplicity of the older 1940s Wolfman makeup. Which is definitely what they were going for. I i completely agree with you, but...
00:32:11
Speaker
we've seen Rick Baker do werewolves. We've seen that, and it looked a lot better the other time he did it. Like this is- He did it 30 decades earlier, yeah. This would be like someone just graduated from Tom Savini's makeup school, and this is their first movie, and they made this. She's like, oh, that's nice. That's pretty serviceable. That works a little bit, kind of, if you squint. Good job.
00:32:37
Speaker
see and i See, and I don't mind the effect of the makeup, honestly. I really don't. I hate the mouth thing. You know I hate that. You do hate the mouth thing. You really do hate the mouth thing. um Whereas i I don't as much, but yeah. That's fair.
00:32:53
Speaker
um But um yeah, i love I love the faithful, and that because he's doing a different kind of, he's not doing a werewolf, he's doing a wolf man, which is, in he it at least in his mind and probably in some of the minds of some of the heads over at Universal, probably a very different thing. So he's he's sticking to the Jack Pierce model. He's trying to very much do what, whereas Landis with American Werewolf in London is doing something completely different and completely um removed from what what this is.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's there's kind of the camp of American werewolf in London, um howling and dog soldiers. And then there's, yeah, ah the wolf man, both this one and the original one. And Steven, I like that distinction. Like, this isn't a werewolf. This is a a wolf man, which for some people might be a distinguish or a distinction without a difference. But like, no, that they're actually actually is an approach to that.
00:33:48
Speaker
um
00:33:51
Speaker
Anyway, that's it for me. Good night, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate you having you here. i I think it's too bad. um that Joe Johnson either didn't have the time to figure out or just didn't really care about making the effects in this look good because there's a way to blend um practical effects and CGI to make something that's better than both of them. And I feel like that's something they could have done. Can you imagine
00:34:23
Speaker
if they had taken the transformation scene from American Werewolf in London, which they kind of do, and use that, they use that as a practical blueprint, and they do as much of it practical as they can, and then enhance that with CGI. Can you imagine how much better that would have looked? So much better. The David Fincher approach, if you will. Well, actually, no, not not David Fincher anymore.
00:34:53
Speaker
best police. Hope everyone's okay. um There's a quote from Johnston in the the Wikipedia from an interview he did at with 30 ninjas about the CGI. Like too many ninjas to be talking to at the same time. It's ah it's an obscene amount of ninjas, frankly.
00:35:12
Speaker
um He said, I recognize that there were things i was going I was going to be able to do from the beginning to the end and things I had to rely on post-production for. I decided to basically just shoot Benicio in the sequence where he transforms and decide in post-production what I wanted the transformation to be. That was really my main reason for using CG. It gave me so much more flexibility, which if you're using CG as a crutch in that instance,
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's not not a great reason to look. Oh, I don't know what it's going to look like, but we'll figure it out. So just do some stuff. I mean, but a lot of that is the fact that he is, as we've said, that he joined three weeks before the movie. That's fair. Like started shooting like he just didn't have a lot of time to work with the the.
00:35:59
Speaker
the effects people to really figure out what he wanted. And so he ended up relying on CG. And that's really the the downside of bringing in a ringer and something like this on your big effects heavy blockbuster. Yeah, because because Tucker, you talk about how, you know, what Mark, okay, sorry, you're gonna have to edit out my cat.
00:36:21
Speaker
from. No, I'm keeping that in. That was intense. I love kitties. Because you you talk about how what what would have Mark Romanek have added to this versus not and switching out a director with three weeks also means or also raises the question of what crew does he then bring along because the DP for this was Shelley Johnson, who was like a Joe Johnson, like regular who shot a bunch of stuff with him. So like who was Mark Romanek's DP was going to be would it have looked different? Would we have not gotten that desaturated look? Would we have not, you know, gotten X, Y, or Z? Because watching this on, I watched it on Peacock. I i don't, I don't have a Blu-ray like fancy Stephen does over there. um But there there are some shots where like you kind of, when it's blown up on a big screen, like you do kind of see the grain, which I really kind of appreciated because of it being a period piece, but at the same time, yes, it doesn't look like a
00:37:16
Speaker
good movie and it's funny because that was one of the things that I remembered before we watched it was like oh but I seem to remember like it really had a a lot of cool ambiance with like candles and torches and stuff and it had a good look to it and then you watch it again like no this doesn't have a like it's not like there's not anything special or unique about this. um there's There's kind of some shots or scenes here and there where it's like oh I get the the sense of kind of the decreptitude of the manner that Talbot is coming back to and like you really get the sense of this family legacy which is crumbling but
00:37:47
Speaker
They don't dwell on that. um They don't really kind of spend a lot of time on it. Instead, they kind of shift to this romance, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. No. problem Emily, Emily Blunt is here for what?
00:38:04
Speaker
five and a half minutes, roughly. And yet we're supposed to believe that they're in love and she's the one who's supposed to end this curse or whatever. Right. there's Not a lot of you're not doing much to sell me on this romance here. And particularly for relationships that starts with I was engaged to your brother to like, like a minute and a half later in the film, they're like making out in the middle of the woods. And you're just like,
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah, who is a cartoon character? By the way, I don't know if you noticed that his brother is a cartoon character. The shifts in tone. I don't know if they're intentional or not in this movie, but the scene at the gypsy camp and when his brother dies are those are completely different movies. Those are cartoons. Yeah. Both of those are like chuck Jones animated cartoons.
00:38:52
Speaker
It is and yeah because almost almost like when he when his brother gets like slashed by the wolf in the beginning there's this look on his face like That's all folks. Oh, that would have been much a much better movie. Indeed. man That's sad. Go for the absurd. yeah The absurd. part That's what we'll call that. It's funny that Emily Blunt's character, who I know has a name, but this film basically treats her as woman character. Right. I think it's Gwen. I think you were right. Romantic interest.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah, her her criteria for falling in love is just like, oh, you're a man who's alive. Okay, I'm in love with you. You're the main character. Great. have the main character of This movie. Great. Because according to my contract here, we're supposed to be in love. Great. Let's let's have a love scene. Fantastic.
00:39:43
Speaker
um Yeah, it's nothing. none none None of it is believable. And like the The Big Bad is supposed to be spoilers for a movie which is 15 years old and you're listening to a podcast about, but like the Big Bad is supposed to be his father who is like the original wolf man who has like the curses being passed down on. But there's no, because there's no tension built up even between them in the sense of like, oh, I'm coming home to my asshole father who did X, Y and Z when I was younger and this is why I don't come home and he's been such a shit heel my entire life.
00:40:18
Speaker
but I guess also, yes, killed my mother in like some weird repressed memories. um their Their showdown at the end doesn't feel like there's and there's been a buildup to it. It's just kind of like, okay, obligatory yeah like showdown at the end. But like- That's another i mean weird tonal shift. you know like yeah it just It turns into a completely different movie. It's just too CGI. It's like a superhero fight. It's like, you have to have one in every movie.
00:40:45
Speaker
And there's your Wolfman superhero fight at the end. Like, it's it's so by the numbers, painfully by the numbers, like I was saying before, like, what are they going to do first? OK, they're going to transform. Then they're going to come to each other and jump and meet each other in the air. Exactly. Of course, that's what they're going to fucking do. Like, what else are they going to do? Oh, it's so annoying. And I think you helped me figure out um why I can't let this go, why I can't just be like, this is a forgettable movie and I don't like it, but whatever.
00:41:14
Speaker
is because I've watched some really good movies in the last couple days, ah specifically Shadow of the Vampire, which is superbly shot. That is a beautiful movie. I don't care what you think about any other part of the film, and a lot of people have a lot of different opinions, but that film is so uniquely, creatively, and beautifully shot. And to go from that last night to this,
00:41:41
Speaker
it's just shockingly bad. shockingly boring and dull. This movie's so dull. It is it and it really does kind of feel like if you have if you have like a TV series, which we have this one episode which is taking place in like 1800s London, like it's going to look like this entire movie, like it's kind of the shorthand of like, okay, here we are. London in the 1800s. Let's desaturate. Let's kind of make some put some candles everywhere and we're going to have a lot of vul it and even like the. And once again, with the caveat, this whole episode of the caveat is like Joe Johnson, three weeks. What could he have done? Right. and We still love Joe Johnson. We love you, Joe Johnson. It's not your fault. Correct. You know, it's it's it's not his fault. And, you know.
00:42:31
Speaker
But everything everything just looks like the the the only things which I really feel like are inspired or unique were a lot of things which were in place and already naturally going to be good, such as Anthony Hopkins, such as Hugo Weaving. like you know Those are very good actors who like could you know give them a ah wet paper bag. And they're like, yeah, OK, I'll make something of this. It'll be fine. And mostly is.
00:42:56
Speaker
but you know Emily Blunt, who wasn't really Emily Blunt yet at that time, um a script who, you know, had two writers. So you have to imagine how many other people kind of had their hands in this, and including from universe to writers. Yeah. um Well, and apparently David Self was brought in by Joe Johnston probably three weeks beforehand to completely rewrite everything, ah which tells me a lot. Right. It's always a good side.
00:43:24
Speaker
that That feels very telling to me, is that Johnston brings on David South for a rewrite. Because what would a film written by Andrew Kevin Walker, directed by Mark Romanek, what would that have looked like? and And I would be, I would be fascinated because you you had something similar with like it and Kerry Joji Fukunaga, who is like, oh, yeah, now he's he's a groomer and a sexual predator. Cool, cool, cool. But still a a guy who before that was known as like a very talented director who was getting a property that was like, oh, we've known of this. we We know this property. This has like some some clout behind it. So what can this guy with a unique voice like, what can he bring to it?
00:44:03
Speaker
And so everyone's going to play the rules like, oh, creative differences. And, you know, I think the most you can kind of get out of it is like they had budget disputes. So what did that mean in the sense of because if it was Mark Romanick wanted more money and universities didn't want to give it to him, that got shot to hell because they did reshoots. And, you know, despite Joe Johnson's like reputation, this movie went over budget and over schedule and they had to do a whole bunch of it. And it turned out all for not because it ended up tanking anyway. Right. I have to imagine that if if If I'm going to theorize, my opinion would be that probably um creative differences between the studio and Mark Rotten. That guy, you know, that I like? He does music videos.
00:44:52
Speaker
See, my problem is like, um you know how they say if someone mispronounces a word, it's because they read it first before they heard it. My thing is, is the only reason I know about Mark Romanick is because I bought a DVD of all of his music videos. Oh, yeah. the so like Yeah, I have all all eight volumes of those. They're fantastic. I bought it like four years before YouTube became a thing and you're like, yeah, I got to get those music videos. And then four years later, you're like, fuck. What have I done? I don't have the commentaries and stuff. Yeah.
00:45:28
Speaker
Really? Okay, because like because I have the the three pack of Michel Gondry, Spike Jones, and Chris Cunningham that is out of print now, like you cannot buy it anymore. yeah So that would be my son's inheritance. Yo, and the Spike Jones one has some of his skateboard videos on it too, which I thought was pretty rad. Yeah.
00:45:45
Speaker
um Yeah, but anyway, I have to imagine just based on the creative output of Mark Romanek that it had to be creative differences because like you see what this movie ends up being and it does look like the studio said, this is what we want from this movie. Now go make it.
00:46:06
Speaker
Yeah. There's a quote on the Wikipedia from a 2013 interview ah that Mark Romanek did with Collider, ah where he but he says,
Universal's Strategy for Monster Films
00:46:15
Speaker
when there's a certain amount of money involved, these things make studios and producers a little nervous. They don't necessarily understand it, or they feel that the balance will swing too far to something esoteric. And we could never come to an agreement on the right balance for that type of thing. Ultimately, it made it more sense for them to find a director that was going to fulfill their idea of the film that they wanted.
00:46:34
Speaker
That's a Joe Johnston for you. And we just sort of parted ways. Yeah, i would if I was right. I would have loved for this movie to be more esoteric. I would have loved like show some introspect and like show some weirdness as opposed anyway. But this was so this was four years before Dracula and told so. Yes. No. Was this one always going to be the beginning of the quote unquote dark universe or was that something that they kind of threw together? I don't I don't think it had anything to do with that. It doesn't the dark universe doesn't come into being and they don't even start
00:47:10
Speaker
Talking dark universe until we don't even have we don't even have an Avengers at this point Like Marvel's two years into the MCU, I don't think anybody at this point is really scrambling to get their cinematic universe together. Not until 2012 is when that starts. So like 2013 is when they start talking to Roberto Orsi and Alex Kurtzman of the Star Trek reboot fame of trying to start something new. So that kind of starts a new era, but this is kind of this weird in-between era where
00:47:43
Speaker
Universal can't figure out what it wants to do with these properties. ye So you get like ah see our previous episode on 1979's Dracula with Frank Langella. And then 20 years later, you get the Stephen Summers mummy movies, which are big hits.
00:48:00
Speaker
i um Yeah, and awesome, like so much fun. And then in 2004, you get Van Helsing, which is their yeah attempt at kind of rebooting a different thing. And they honestly, I pitched in that episode, one of our earliest episodes, um go go back and listen to that one with our good friend, Hope Lichtner, first time she was on the pod.
00:48:21
Speaker
Um, but I mentioned that movie, they should have crossed that over. Like the end, the end post credit scene should have been Van Helsing meeting up with ah Rick and Evie in Egypt somewhere. And then they should have done a big crossover. That should have been the third Mummy movie is Van Helsing too, should have been the third Mummy movie. So i see, I, hmm, I want to agree with you, but I just think that the, the tone of those Mummy films It's a little too, I mean, it's kind of parallel to Van Helsing, but it's- They're all Steven Sumber's movies, like in the war. I understand this. I understand, but the mummy's so, how do you put those color palettes together? How do you put Hugh Jackman in that costume in the fucking desert, Steven? Answer me that. Very carefully.
00:49:17
Speaker
No, no. Oh, you know, you shoot it like Soderbergh shot traffic, bada bing bada boom, there we go. Oh, there you go. Once again, Steven Soderbergh has the answer to all of our questions and the movie that won Benicio his Oscar. There you go. There we go. Fuck yeah, dude. And then so so we get then Helsing, that's a that's a swing and a miss. And then we get the third movie movie.
00:49:47
Speaker
for most people. For Universal, it's a swing and a miss. Oh, there's a kitty. We're talking about the Wolfman and Van Helsing truly is its complete opposite, but they're kind of, man, there's so much alike, but Van Helsing is bad in the same ways, but like in a really entertaining way.
00:50:13
Speaker
And I love it. And there's so much heart in that movie too. It's not a good movie, but there's, you can tell the people that are making it are having a great time. This movie is soulless. The Wolfman has nothing in it. Nobody gives a fuck about this movie. Maybe Benicio del Toro, but what are you even doing here, dude? And I feel like I'm asking that question about most movies that Benicio del Toro does these days is like Benicio, dude, what are you doing? Yo, avengers and game what are you doing?
00:50:40
Speaker
French dispatch, though. You know how I feel about Wes Anderson. I think he's the best part of that movie, and there's a lot of really good parts of that movie. Way of the Gun. Steven, have you still not seen Way of the Gun? You know I haven't. Will you please put that somewhere on the straight up schedule? We're getting JP Leck on for that one because he also loves that movie, and I need someone to validate my opinion.
00:51:01
Speaker
That one's, that one, I mean, again, like we're into 2026, 2027 now. That's fine. I'm in for the long haul. I'm not going to the cast until I talk about all the movies I want to on straight up. It's a long list, Steven. So this movie comes two years after the Rob Cohen directed Mummy, Tomb of the Dragon Emperor. um which And so with Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh.
00:51:28
Speaker
um academy award winner michelle yo And so like this movie comes ah behind those and I think this is kind of the end of their. This kind of, with the rise of the MCU and the failure of kind of their last two big attempts at this, I think they're like, let's completely hard pivot. We're obviously not going to do the Hugo Weaving Wolfman sequel that we set up at the end of this movie. That's not going to happen. So we're going to pivot to our own shared universe of things, which we've already talked about the um the Tom Cruise Mummy. We have yet to talk about Dracula Untold. that's
00:52:07
Speaker
We don't need to. Coming up. yeah like but wait could we These movies are like consistently disappointing at the box office. what if what if we we could you know You're talking about crossing over with Van Helsing. This movie could cross over with Van Helsing because Hugo Weaving was the only person in this movie that knew how fucking stupid it is.
00:52:30
Speaker
like because he's hamming it up the entire time. And he's he's having a blast. His portrayal of that character would fit perfectly into the Van Helsing universe. Get him as like the good werewolf because member Van Helsing was a werewolf at one point. So maybe they could be pals, you know, and they could solve supernatural crimes together. Now, you know who I could see showing up in the desert is Hugo Weaving as his character in this movie.
00:52:59
Speaker
That's the spinoff, crossover spinoff. With one of the pith helmets and you know those those mutton chops, absolutely. Yes. That would work. i and i want to I want to step back and talk about the Dark Universe for a little bit um sure because okay this movie doesn't warrant too much conversation, as we've already established.
00:53:22
Speaker
we we're We're all good on tangents here. You're among friends. I remember its announcement. I remember that like black and white press photo of like all of them together and kind of like, oh, Russell Crowe's going to be, was he Dr. Jekyll he was going to be? Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, yes. ah we Obviously, we had Tom Cruise who had been used to El Toro.
00:53:41
Speaker
did they? Because it was it was a while back where i'm I'm forgetting did they pitch it as like was this going to be like were they going to be an Avengers type team or were they just all going to kind of like appear in each other's movies kind of a situation? Unclear. Okay. The way it was I'm sorry, Steven. I was just going to say during the original run, like in the 40s and 50s of the Universal Monster films, they did do a bunch of crossovers. Like, honestly, the Universal Monsters are the perfect choice for a shared universe because they kind of invented it. Right.
00:54:19
Speaker
Which is the thinking going into the Dark Universe as a whole. is that And their kind of means of setting that up is prodigium, which is the organization run by Dr. Jekyll. um and that so And there's like this one scene in The Mummy where Tom Cruise is walking through this like,
00:54:42
Speaker
room full of artifacts. And you get like all these little Easter eggs, like it's a one of those ride the pause button kind of scenes that nerds just, like you know, framed photo of Claude Rains.
00:54:55
Speaker
Right. there's There's a hand of a creature from the Black Lagoon like encased in formaldehyde. It's all that shit. It's just all kind of in there. So the idea is that this organization is going to be the thing that kind of runs us through. And then at some point, question mark, question mark, question mark, they all get together and do like a big House of Dracula, House of Frankenstein, Monster Mash kind of thing. um andgenstein Obviously, man right Obviously, we never got to that point, but they what they had pitched, ah Bill Condon was finally going to get his get to do his fucking Bride of Frankenstein movie with Angelina Jolie and Javier Bardem.
00:55:34
Speaker
um They wanted to do a Wolfman movie with Dwayne The Rock Johnson as the Wolfman. Fucking terrible. I hate it so much. Let's do it. No, let's do it. They were going to do an Invisible Man movie written by Ed Solomon, which maybe there's something there, starring Predator Johnny Depp as as the Invisible Man.
00:55:58
Speaker
um And I mean, they have literally the Wikipedia entry for for the Dark Universe has a list of canceled projects. Frankenstein, Wolfman, Bride of Frankenstein, Dracula, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Scarlett Johansson was in talks for that one. The Invisible Man, Phantom of the Opera, Hunchback of Notre Dame, another Van Helsing movie, and a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Haydn movie.
00:56:24
Speaker
It wouldn't be connected to the other one, though, would it? No, no. Fuck that then. They they actually were wanting to try to get Channing Tatum in for that one. OK, I mean, i whatever. I think I think the Dark Universe would have been stupid, but I would say that NBC Universal, I think could benefit from having a Kevin Feige type of character who's at least kind of like, Hey, here's all of our original our monster movie stuff like you go do what you want with this stuff. Like that I think could be cool, especially because you have peacock where like they
00:57:06
Speaker
they're like every other streaming service are releasing their own original programming where you can only find it there. So like just let someone kind of be in charge of that thing of like of that arm of it, not to make a dark universe, but to just like at least make interesting content from these characters that are iconic and like basically built and defined the studio when it started out. They have that and it's Jason Blum now. ah well and hey Jason Blum is doing that.
00:57:36
Speaker
you you could you could do that and then if at some point down the line it makes sense to cross something over fantastic fantastic because that's something that marvel proved is that you don't go into it betting on a shared universe you just put a cart before the horse you you make the best bottle movies that you can and if they do well enough and it makes sense cross them over. And that's, I mean, you could, you could do that. Like with, with the invisible man, the one with the gal firm handmaid's tail, that was fantastic. And that same dude is doing that new wolf man. Yeah. well that is goingnna be sad probably yeah
00:58:22
Speaker
Yeah i mean and that's that's kind of where the property is right now is they're basically kind of reconfiguring these concepts for a modern sensibility in a modern audience and figuring out a way to to make these characters that. Are at this point fairly pass a into actual threats make them actually scary again going to modernize them yeah exactly and i think it's a man.
00:58:44
Speaker
right and i think the approach is that they're doing are really working at least you in so far as the invisible man. We're covering this movie because we wanna wolfman movie comes out this weekend um so we'll be i mean i'm excited to see that that's like yeah it's it's a january release so you know.
00:59:03
Speaker
tempering my expectations, but still, I really liked um The Invisible Man. That was the first, the last movie I saw before, um you know, the end times in theaters. So, and I really enjoyed it. Like, I i went with my ex-wife and one of her work friends, and I was the only one that walked out going, that was good. and Yeah. I was like, that was a lot of fun. Yeah, I had a lot of fun with that movie.
00:59:27
Speaker
Speaking of the Universal Monsters and new films coming out, I don't think it's associated with the Universal, but Netflix and Guillermo Del Toro are doing that. Frankenstein, dude. And I'll tell you what, I respect Guillermo Del Toro as a filmmaker. I think he's fantastic. But also, most of his movies just aren't for me. But this one, as soon as it drops, I'm going to see that motherfucker. I mean, he's already made the character from the Black Lagoon movie, so.
00:59:57
Speaker
Well, this this one could work because of Del Toro's approach to humanizing monsters, ah which is why I actually think and Stephen and I talked about this a little bit just because of on Casa Cthulhu, we did the the table read for his his At the Mountains of Manuscript. But hmm.
01:00:18
Speaker
Why I wouldn't think that Del Toro was a good match for Lovecraft stuff because you don't want to humanize those monsters. Those monsters are supposed to drive you insane and and bring about like existential terror within you. But Frankenstein's monster, I think he's probably the perfect fit for that. But also, Tucker, I understand what you're saying because Del Toro will do many movies that I absolutely fucking love. And then in between, he'll make these ones where it's like, what were you thinking? Like, why was Pacific Rim the movie you wanted to make? um and Because he likes kaiju and mechs, really. That's what it comes down to. Sometimes you want to see giant robot punch giant monster. I don't know.
01:00:59
Speaker
ah and And he does, there is there is that humanistic element that he brings. And, you know, um i I dig it, Del Toro. I even dog dig the movies that a lot of people don't like. Like, I really enjoyed Crimson Peak. Oh, I do, too. i yeah I'm that guy. did not like kind of Not Chronos, but what was the the mainstream horror film he did in the 90s? Was it Mimic? Mimic, which what Weinstein destroyed. Correct.
01:01:28
Speaker
But still, like even with ah Harvey Scissorhands coming at it, it's I remember seeing that in theaters when it came out. And that's still a really fun and suspenseful movie. Yeah, I like it a lot. That's the movie that almost made James Cameron beat the shit out of Harvey Weinstein at the Oscars.
01:01:49
Speaker
he should He should have done it. Like, I'm kind of mad. I agree. After Cameron wins for um ah for Titanic, literally right after Harvey Weinstein is there going, oh, you should come work for Miramax. We're a good friend of the artist. He's like, yeah, I heard you were. What a good friend you were to my buddy, Guillermo del Toro, and about socked him in the jaw. Like, there were, like, people, like, pulling him apart. It was, like, I wish to be a fly on the wall for that moment. Go get him, Jimmy. Go get him, Jimmy Cameron.
01:02:16
Speaker
That's why we love you, Jimmy. Paul Sorvino threatened to do bad things to Harvey Weinstein. And he could have ah fully would have. He says nodding slowly while placing a finger to the side of his nose yeah like he could have. um God, Paul Sorvino, what a fucking legend. But no, I am very excited for Del Toro's ah Frankenstein. No, he is a guy where like his Like even The Shape of Water is very good. I would probably never watch that movie again, but it was very good. but Whereas His Pinocchio, I'm like, everyone should see His Pinocchio. It was incredible. um But i i have this I have this thought every now and again, because i I'm a strange person. But if the infinite universe's theory is correct, which is the idea that if the universe is indeed infinite, then every iteration of our existence
01:03:13
Speaker
probably exists because of, you know, even in in in a world of infinite possibilities and even the the smallest percentage chance of thing happening will happen. So if it is correct, then there is a world out there which looks a lot like this one where we're having ah a conversation talking about the Wolfman. But in that world, these things happened. Weezer's Pinkerton was a smash hit. um Nirvana's in utero, tanked.
01:03:42
Speaker
um David Lynch was allowed to make Twin Peaks for as long as he wanted to and the Dark Universe came to be and was ah was financially successful. There was a world where all that stuff has happened and I am fascinated as to what that world looks like.
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, me too. Especially that you mentioned the David Lynch Twin Peaks of it all in my heart kind of started to break a little bit. I'm like, oh, I want that. No, here's the thing. I don't know that David Lynch would have wanted to make it too much longer than he did. So that's true. But at least at least it would have been a series in which the studio did not force him to reveal Laura Palmer's killer. Right. So he so season two turned out the way that he wanted to. Then there was a season three and that kind of stuff. Having said that, the return is an amazing end to all that. Right. And i if we get if we get David Lynch working on Twin Peaks as long as he wants, we don't get the return. And that we also don't get Fire Walk with me, the movie. so That's a good point. But we we maybe do get the trilogy of movies that he intended to make when you know with Fire Walk and me being the first one. Right. Again, future episode of this podcast, Twin Peaks Fire Walk with me.
01:04:59
Speaker
i Okay, i'm i'm putting I'm inviting myself on for that one. okay If for nothing else is because um the day that Cooper comes into Twin Peaks is February 24th, which is my birthday. And so come on I have hosted movie parties about Twin Peaks because it happens on my birthday. i'm like and it' And also it is it is a movie that I do not understand and yet I respond to in so many ways because of Lynch's talent as a filmmaker, specifically to the way that he works with sound. And also I'm going back through Twin Peaks now because of the blank check podcast. I don't know if you are a fan or your listeners are fans fan. fan yes We've gone through David Lynch's filmography and I am realizing now, remembering now how
01:05:48
Speaker
And we can get more into this if we talk about that that show later on, but like the way that he shoots liminal spaces is so unsettling and terrifying. Absolutely. um Just that shot of in Laura Palmer's house with the camera pointing up at the stairwell with the fan going, there's something so upsetting about like, I don't want to spend time in that space specifically.
01:06:12
Speaker
it's It's menacing while being innocuous. And that is what is so amazing about him as a filmmaker. like i I have told so many people the most terrifying scene in any movie I've ever seen is the scene behind the dumpster oh yeah in Mulholland Drive. allund like yeahp Fucking terrifying. Anyway, The Wolfman is not very good.
01:06:37
Speaker
No, it's not. I
Classic Universal Monsters and Cultural Impact
01:06:38
Speaker
wish it were. i again i want Again, because of my love for werewolves, because of my love of this property, like I own the Universal Legacy Collection DVD box set of the Wolfman films. like I love these things. I love um the the Lon Chaney Jr. performance in as that original character. I think he's the only person to play the same character throughout that entire franchise.
01:07:02
Speaker
Um, cause Legosi is there and gone, Karloff is there and gone. Legosi and Karloff just like switched back and forth all the time. They just like replace each other constantly. Like if one's not there, like you'll get Legosi as Frankenstein's monster. What the fuck? Yeah, in in Frankenstein meets the Wolfman, yeah. he's But again, if you watch the previous Frankenstein movies, that makes sense in universe. Like, why Karloff? Because he actually, like, has his brain, like, his the the character of Igor that he plays in those films gets placed inside the mind of the Frankenstein monster. um Like, it all makes sense if if you're paying attention, but unfortunately, Universal did not do a very good job.
01:07:48
Speaker
I'm sure the continuity is airtight. Airtight. Hey, no, Connor Reigns plays like several different characters in that in that universe, right? Because he's in Wolfman and he's the Invisible Man. Yes.
01:08:06
Speaker
He is, nothing else I feel like he pops open one of the crossover movies as somebody completely different. I know, here's here's what I do know is that the only actor to play all four of the classic Universal monsters, which is to say Frankenstein, Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, the Wolfman, and um the mummy is Lon Chaney Jr. There you go, that tracks, yeah. He plays all four of them at some point or another. The man with a thousand faces.
01:08:35
Speaker
The son of the man of a thousand faces. The man of the son of a thousand faces. Because he' is he's the he's the son of the the guy who was the original Phantom, the original Hunchback. Yeah. true So that's his that's his that's his kid, chip off the old block. And that's why they wanted him. they He didn't want to do it. They want you know they wanted the name of the Lon Chaney Jr. He was actually credited under a different name for the longest time. They're like, no, you're Lon Chaney Jr. Damn it. Well, and he's he's actually perfect for this role because even though he can disguise himself as anyone else,
01:09:12
Speaker
I think his look and the way that he but portrays ah Larry Talbot in that original Wolfman movie, like he looks just like a ah dude. Like John Chaney Jr. just looks like a dude. He's an ugly man. yeah He's got like a clear palette, a clean palette. He can make anything out of that like regular dude face. And that hang dog kind of expression and yeah. Yes. The Wolfman movie. That movie, the way that it does the transition.
01:09:44
Speaker
sorry they shot that that was yeah now yeah they well no They shot the transition scenes for those original ones over like a period of like an hour because they would literally just like have him lay there and then they would apply some of the makeup and then have him lay back down. They take another like ah another long picture, get him back up, apply more makeup. and And the way that it was edited together made it seem like a seamless transition. That was kind of the magic of filmmaking. And we've been chasing that dragon ever since. And I think again,
01:10:14
Speaker
For all the ills the man has brought upon the world, no one has really done that transition better than John Landis since. That's true. John Landis, despite what you may think about him, is a very talented filmmaker, I think, in a lot of respects. He's got it he's got a few good movies. Unfortunately, he led to a number of people losing their lives needlessly. A little careless, a little bit of a careless fella. And i'll say in um the world got back to him or got back at him by giving him Max Landis. Right. Oh, God.
01:10:50
Speaker
What did Debra Nadulman do to deserve all that? That's what I want to know. There is there is a a ah ah horror anthology out there called Tales of Halloween. I don't know if anyone has has seen it. um I think it was available on Netflix. um And it's basically, it's like, I think something like eight or 10, like really short.
01:11:11
Speaker
um ah really short films that all take place on Halloween night. um And they do have some actually like talented people like Neil Marshall directs one of them. Carolyn Bausman does one. And John Landis is in one as an actor with the plot, I think has to be based on real life that he or or some type of like um realism that he would never actually admit to because the plot is he is this millionaire who two thieves like kidnap his son with the idea of like we're gonna hold him for ransom and this guy's gonna pay us back but his son is a literal monster so they kidnap him
01:11:48
Speaker
And they call him like, we're holding your son for instance. He's like, huh, well, good luck with that. And like does not want his son back. And I think it has to be based in some type of like actual biographical um facts because it just seems too perfect. Yeah, no, that that seems accurate. That seems right. I like that. I like that for him, frankly.
01:12:10
Speaker
you know You mentioned that and it makes me think how how not very often, but just often enough to be strange that John Landis shows up as an actor in things that you don't expect him in. Like Psycho IV. He's just a co-star of Psycho IV. He's just in it as one of the side characters. Through the entire film, he's there.
01:12:34
Speaker
Yep. Just there. He's done directed it. Nope. Produced it. Nope. Had a hand in writing. Nah. It's just, you're just like, Hey, John Linus, what are you doing? And then he's in your movie. No big deal. Well, and again, he is, he is one of those filmmakers who is enough of an influence on enough of a certain generation of filmmakers that they're like, I'll i'll throw them in my movie. What the hell?
01:12:59
Speaker
Um, because again, God knows he's not doing anything these days. So. Nor should he be, but yeah, like, and yeah and every now and again, you'll see, you'll see stuff like that happen. Um, I think enough people are kind of distancing themselves from him at this point, but yeah, at at one point, all of those guys were in each other's movies. Like Spielberg has cameos in.
01:13:24
Speaker
Blues Brothers and Gremlins. Spielberg just like showed up on set and did a role. Spielberg has acted in stuff before. like it's just of those That's just something that those guys would do that almost never happens anymore.
01:13:37
Speaker
And Spielberg um is one of two directors where whenever I see them, it's so distracting. And the other one is Michael Bay. When Michael Bay shows up and shit, I'm like, holy shit, that's Michael Bay. and That's the only thing I can think about until he's gone. Mystery men? All I'm thinking about is Michael Bay. Like, yes. Bad Boys 3 and the first Bad Boys, all I'm looking at, oh, look at that. It's Michael Bay. What just happened? I don't know. I was staring at Michael Bay.
01:14:06
Speaker
you know The first guy to do that was Hitchcock, and I kind of wish Hitchcock had made cameos in other people's films, too. Well, most of the time he's just kind of in the background. He's not like an M Night Shyamalan, where he's like, I'm going to give myself an extended cameo in this film.
01:14:22
Speaker
Well, it got to a point where Shyamalan was like making his cameos like actual roles in the film. It's one of those like, most i them yeah I'm directing, but what I really want to do is act. And so I'm gonna put myself in a small role here, slightly bigger role here, slightly bigger role here. My character is the savior of the world. ah You know who's good at that though? As much as I've outgrown most of his films, I think Quentin Tarantino is really good at finding the the perfect little director cameos in his movies because he's just an annoying person in general. I don't think I could stand to sit with that man for like thirty more than 30 seconds. Because when I hear interviews with him and stuff, I'm just, oh my God, shut up. The thing you gotta realize though. He's a fantastic filmmaker.
01:15:05
Speaker
ah he He really is a guy that has not mellowed with time in the sense of like he seems like he's just as insufferable these days as he was when he was in his 20s. He's also self aware because he knows how much of that is going to work in his movie. Like I think the screen time that he gets is probably probably death proof. And because it's such kind of a background character, it works. It works.
01:15:35
Speaker
It's when he's in other people's movies that it it becomes really like distracting and bad. Actually, I think in From Dust Till Dawn, like I hate him in that movie, and that's because he's playing the role so well. I fucking hate him.
01:15:53
Speaker
Seek out a movie called Sukiyaki Western Django, in which Quentin Tarantino shows up with the most baffling accent, like even worse than his Australian accent in Django Unchained where you're like, No, dear. you in't here no ah I here can't even describe it like movie itself pretty decent. And then like Tarantino sticks out like I can't even say a sore thumb like a sore arm. He just sticks out with how bad he is in this movie. um yeah It's it's absurd. No, and I ah yeah, I love him as a filmmaker. I love like what he brings to even just like the art like he bought a movie theater in l LA. He's like, I'm mean i'm just gonna like
01:16:38
Speaker
I'm going to curate stuff. actually my Yeah, like yeah that's that's amazing. And I wish that there would be like a person who would do that in New York City, but there as of yet is not that kind of individual. um But come on, Marty. He's, you know, I know he's got his own stuff going on. He does. And he's, you know, ah and I don't think as as rich as he is, I don't think he has Tarantino money. ah Probably not.
01:17:05
Speaker
but but butll also um and then But then I'll seek out like i i like, oh, when I heard that he had ah that you know that podcast with rich with Roger Avery, I'm like, oh my God, this just seems great. And then I'll download an episode. It's like, you were talking about movies that I've never heard of and I cannot stand listening to you in particular talk about them. Yeah. Oh, wait, Roger Avery, though? Is Quentin Tarantino always on it?
01:17:30
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's the two of them. It's the it's the two of them all the time. It's like the film archives. It's their show, yeah. I really want to hear what Roger Avery has to say. Good luck. I don't know if I could sit through it if I have to hear Quentin Tarantino talk for more than like a minute and a half. It's about when I tap out. Well, like I say, good luck. Yeah. what how how How about um Tarantino talking for two hours? How about that, huh? There's a prize. That's what I call podcasting.
01:18:00
Speaker
Can I get just the Roger Avery isolated and then just, I hate that I'm saying this, but the TikTok AI voice, just reading the transcript of what Quentin Tarantino says. Taking out all of the um's and you know's and you know what I mean's out of there. And then, cause Roger Avery's my guy. Like rules of attraction, come on you guys. I wanna hear Roger Avery talk about Silent Hill.
01:18:28
Speaker
please yes um anyway um anyway the wolfman is not a good movie it's not a good movie i i like it there are things about it i i defend i defend the casting of del toro i know yes yes damn you Um, I do not like his Shakespeare at the beginning. Like he's doing Hamlet and he's supposed to be like this great performer. And I'm like, is that what we're calling acting in this movie? yeah Have we not mentioned that he is British?
01:19:02
Speaker
But just because he spent a little bit of time in the United States, now he has a complete American accent with no hints of a British one. None. And Anthony Hopkins can't decide if he's doing a British or a Scottish accent in this movie half of the time. It's very distracting at certain points because sometimes I think he forgets and thinks he's Scottish.
01:19:27
Speaker
It's really weird. The way he trills his R's on some of those words it doesn't make sense for the accent he's doing for most of the film. Anyway. um the The film ends with a quote from Emily Blunt, which is the the gist of it is basically, you know, ah how can we decipher between man and beast and...
01:19:51
Speaker
The movie fails so spectacularly at carrying that thread and that theme. Right. And if and once again, was that changed when David Self like came in and did some stuff with it in Rominex original. But there there is an interesting that's an interesting thought, an interesting idea, which I if you if you approach a film from that perspective or Wolfman film from that perspective, it becomes an interesting idea because like you you even have like There's that scene, the one sequence which I really like because of how it's shot and just kind of how barbaric is it is when they're dunking del Toro in like the ice water in the asylum. Mm hmm. Really barbaric and really kind of horrifying and like, OK, you kind of see there that idea of um how man can treat another man and how beastly that is. But that's basically it because the for the rest of the time, we're just here like, yeah, he's a he's a man who turns into a wolf. So like, right.
01:20:50
Speaker
Um, and especially in a movie when like the concept of gypsies is now these days, so insensitive and so like horrible.
01:21:03
Speaker
But there's no meditation even on that in the movie. It's just like, oh yeah, there they're gypsies. And you the film wants us to believe that they are less than human because of how their camp is just raided. But it's there is as as we've kind of said like over and over again, this like it's it's paint by number. there's no There's nothing that is delved into too deeply. There is nothing that is kind of expounded on. It's just kind of like, um yes.
01:21:34
Speaker
Here it is, do with it what you will. And what you do with it is summarily rejected it at the box office and um basically. And right yeah, the the state of the legend of these universal monsters, like I don't want Lee Whannell to be the one to individually bring them back to life, but yet for a long time, it was just kind of like,
01:22:01
Speaker
They were stale and on the shelf and we didn't want anything to do with them. And so Invisible Man was great. I am curious about what this new Wolfman will be like, especially because it looks like it's got a good cast. It looks like it's kind of like.
01:22:16
Speaker
just a little cabin in the woods kind of a thing with like a minimal kind of like scope and perspective, which seems really cool. Right? Yeah, these were like I have similar to you, like Steven, I have like the universal classic monsters like Blu-ray like set on like on my DVD shelf and something I'll never get rid of. These were like, I don't know, these these were literally iconic. we We overuse the term iconic and literally these days, but they were literally iconic. And these days, does anyone care about them? And the only ones that we have to blame for that is Universal, the studio that created them and gave them to this world. Right. Well, they're the foundations of modern cinema for Crying in the Mud. Those original Universal monster films, you don't have the horror you have today without that shit. Even like, even something that's not even remotely related to that, the fact that those movies exist
01:23:13
Speaker
are the reason we have horror like you have stuff like Nosferatu and Caligari and shit like that before but these were the movies that that really brought horror into the mainstream and made it a genre that was profitable so the studios were like hey this is we can make some money off this shit and it's cheap they saved Universal from bankruptcy. like dude yeah Like Carl Lemley with his silly monster movies basically saved Universal. The fact that Universal continues to exist is thanks to this IP in particular. And the fact that they have they have never seemed to be able, since the 1950s, really know what to do with it is kind of a black mark, that no one since Lemley has really known what to do with these characters and with this property.
01:24:02
Speaker
is it's it's a big oof because again, like you said, Jim, they are icons. Truly iconic. Well, I think it works against them that ah they are such a foundation, like I said before, because when you lay the groundwork, much like we were just talking about Quentin Tarantino, when Quentin Tarantino came out with Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, he laid the groundwork for a completely new kind of genre. And then everybody was making that film. People were expanding upon it, improving upon it. It's the same with the Universal Monsters and horror. Like they started this gangsta shit and this is the motherfucking thanks they get.
01:24:40
Speaker
because like you can't recapture that lightning in a bottle. no like You're the foundation. People have improved upon that idea. People have expanded upon that idea. People have done so many things with it that if you're trying to just do what you did before, which is what this movie is essentially trying to do, the 2010 Wolfman, it's not gonna work. You have to do something different with it. You have to take that original concept. You have to find the heart of it and present it in a way that modern audiences will be like, oh, this is something new and different.
01:25:14
Speaker
And I think that's, I think you just struck the nail on the head there, Tucker, is that they, yeah all these other attempts have really not done what they can to find the heart of the thing. Even, and it pains me to say this, even the Stephen Summers mummy films are, they don't find the heart of what those original universal mummy films were because it's a very different kind of film. Stephen Summers says, what if we just make an Indiana Jones monster movie? I would say, yeah, it's action adventure, Indiana Jones. That was fun. Yeah.
01:25:44
Speaker
But it's not a universal monster movie. No, like there's something very good because universal they're the ones with Frankenstein in particular that really start to humanize.
01:25:56
Speaker
these monsters. And you you have like the mummy is this horrible monster, but what does he really want? He's he's lovelorn. Like that's that's the whole thing. ah ah it's The mummy's whole thing. The wolf man is this this man struggling with his own inner demons played by a man, literally struggling with his own inner demons. Like, there's a humanity to these monsters that the even even this movie like desperately putting the premise out there that this is what it's about ultimately fails to achieve that humanity um because of how poorly it's written, frankly.
01:26:33
Speaker
Yeah. and And it seems like, again, not to say that Lee 1L is going to be the one to save us all, but as Tucker was was alluding to or or desiring for was like the idea of, OK, with the Invisible Man, and it seems like with Wolfman is like, OK, we're going to take this story and we're going to update it. We're not going to build upon what came before. We're going to make this story as though the Invisible Man was created in 2020, when it came out, like, this is the story. And if you're into that lore, like, then you can appreciate, oh, cool, it's so great to kind of see what how it started and and how it's going to, you know, just to bring in the internet meme. But then also, if you're a, you know, a 17 year old or like 18 year old kind of person who's really getting into into cinema and didn't doesn't have that concept of what it was, and you're like, this is a really cool movie, like, and it speaks to things which are relevant to these days of toxic masculinity of that idea of not believing victims and that kind of thing.
01:27:28
Speaker
And that's that's just that's very smart. um And i I hope that we I hope that we get to see that, which is not to say that I need to see a mummy or I need to see a creature of the black lagoon. But these are approaches that have worked. And so maybe there's some hope after all, who knows?
Financial and Critical Reception of 'The Wolfman'
01:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, we we continue to live in hope, really, is what it comes down to. Yeah.
01:27:53
Speaker
And that having been said, I do feel like it this this is a good time to mention that The Wolfman came out in February of, what do we say, 2010, February 12th, 2010. Valentine's Day, bummer. it it It opened, number two, ah behind a movie called,
01:28:19
Speaker
Valentine's Day. um I think that was the Gary Marshall. ah One of that those like Gary Marshall huge ensemble movies centered around holidays. believe so A weird franchise unto itself, honestly.
01:28:35
Speaker
like the holiday anthology movie um franchise, wild. um Anyway, Valentine's Day opens to 56.3 million, Wolfman opens to 31.5. Also new this week, opening at number three, Percy Jackson and the Olympians colon the lightning thief, one of the just most god awfully long titles ever.
01:29:00
Speaker
um And then at number four, you get, in its ninth week, Avatar, down from number two, the week before, just riding those, riding those Navi vibes, riding that ah Turok, or whatever the name, Turok Machto, whatever the name of that big bird that was. but None of it matters. Okay. Anyone? No? Okay, moving on. um And number five, something called Dear John.
01:29:30
Speaker
channing tan a movie i believe You know, if I may if i may probably make an aside here, ah that proves my point perfectly. What's going on with these Avatar movies? Number one, how do they keep getting made and how do they keep breaking box office records? Because I don't know anybody who gives a fuck about Avatar. I don't know one person that gives a shit about Avatar. Who's seeing these movies?
01:29:53
Speaker
A lot of people apparently Jim Jim seeing them. I mean, the the the most recent one, the way of water hit. This is special for me because I saw it um shortly when the last one come out was a twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two. I think do I want to say three. No, I was still living in I was still living in Indianapolis when that one. Are you sure that would have been twenty one or twenty two? Yes. OK, yes. Twenty two. Twenty two. I'm looking at it. Twenty two.
01:30:23
Speaker
And it it was it was a late year release, right? Because I remember I saw it. Yeah. um That one and it hit a bit differently for me because i my son had just been born and there are some family things in there that I will say without having to spoil that movie. um But they are, yes, they they they seem to have no real And this is an ongoing discussion that we will not get into here, but this idea of does it actually have any cultural cachet because it makes all this money and yet it seems to have no influence on any any other property, any audience, any filmmaker, any anything, and it just seems to be Asgore says he has said like content basically. um Though at the peak of
01:31:13
Speaker
it's technical capabilities because it is marvelous what I especially the second one with underwater sequences in 3d is quite a spectacle, but it it kind of is that, a spectacle. um Unrelated, dear John, yes. Brings in ah two names we've talked about on this podcast already, Channing Tatum, as directed by Lassie Halstrom. There it is. Oh, Yeah. So there we go. Bringing it all, tying it all back in on itself. Rounding out the top 10. I apologize, you guys. It always is. I don't get the avatar thing. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Steven.
01:31:52
Speaker
Rounding out the top 10, we have Dwayne The Rock Johnson in the Tooth Fairy, a movie we sadly cannot cover because Larry the Cable Guy made a sequel. Number seven from from Paris with Love, exactly. ah Number eight, Edge of Darkness. Number nine, Crazy Heart, the film that finally won Jeff Bridges his Oscar. And number 10, When in Rome.
01:32:16
Speaker
What is that? When in Rome, i ah is that the Kristen Bell? Yes, it's the Kristen Bell um Josh Duhamel Roman holiday. ah Maybe. Dax Shepard has an uncategorized role in that film, sure which honestly is pretty much what every Dax Shepard role should be.
01:32:38
Speaker
agree um It opens as we said before to Wolfman opens to 31.5 million and it's opening weekend. Ultimately ends up grossing 62.2 million domestic. That's not a bad opening, honestly, but if you can't maintain it, you're fucked.
01:32:58
Speaker
Exactly. And they could, Word of Mouth got out fast on that one. um It did make $80.4 million internationally. So worldwide, it does get $142.6 million on a $150 million dollars budget. y Yeah, I can't believe this movie cost that much. Yeah. Yeah.
01:33:21
Speaker
Well, and again, that's the that's the the reshoots. That's the, you know, bringing in a director last minute and all the problems and headaches and the rewrites and all that shit. Let's all of that kind of just on display, unfortunately.
01:33:35
Speaker
um So yeah, there you go. The um Tomatometer score on this one is a 32%. Critics consensus suitably grand and special effects laden. The Wolfman suffers from a suspense deficient script and a surprising lack of genuine chills.
01:33:52
Speaker
Yep. The meta score is a 43 based on mixture average reviews from 36 critics. And Tucker, would you care to take a stab at the letterbox ranking? Oh, God. So I've noticed ah based on places that I've looked around on the Internet about this movie that it's gotten some reappraisal, some positive reappraisal as of recent. And I don't know what the fuck is wrong with those people.
01:34:17
Speaker
So I'm not sure because letterboxed is is for the kids. You know, it's it's memes for the kids. So I have to say. ah 2.7 to 3.1. You nailed it right out of the gate, 2.7. That's actually a lot more fair than I expected from letterboxed.
01:34:42
Speaker
i'm I'm not a fan of how there seems to be critical reappraisals for everything because The Phantom Menace is starting to get a critical reappraisal and that movie is very not good and I would like to keep it. I will say this, it is still the best of the prequels.
01:34:57
Speaker
I think a lot of that is just is because people that were kids when that came out are starting to become ah old enough to be targeted for nostalgia. Yes. And for a lot of people, for better or for worse, that's their Star Wars trilogy. Like it's not their fault. So it's true. I think that's what what that is. And I think with this movie, you know, it's been 15 years, so.
01:35:27
Speaker
Like I was ready to reappraise it like I wanted this to be good because I saw this when it came out. And I remember just not giving a fuck just being so indifferent to this movie. It's so aggressively mediocre to the point that it's one of the worst films I've ever seen. But I was hoping that maybe 15 years would have been kind to it, but no, it's just as bad. It has not gotten any better in 15 years, it's still awful. So let's let's rank it. Jim, as our guest out of five stars, how are you gonna rank the Wolfman from 2010? I'm gonna give it a solid two, one for Anthony Hopkins and one for Hugo Weaving. Okay. Tucker, what about yourself?
01:36:20
Speaker
You know what's better than this movie? Marmaduke's better than this movie. You know what's better than this movie? Madam Web. Madam Web is better than this movie. Hard disagree. All right. OK. You heard about this? You seen this? um This is um this is going to be what's the lowest rating I can give Stephen? I mean, Brett and I give zero stars to Food Fight. So this gets point to five star.
01:36:50
Speaker
For Hugo Weaving, like making me want him in a Van Helsing movie with Hugh Jackman. 0.25 star. I'm giving it three. Get out of here. That's fucked up. Bye, everybody. but like In fact, I'm a little offended, but I said I wasn't going to take this too seriously. I'm just gonna i'm going to calm down, Steven. There it is. It's a little air. Where's the mug? Bring out the mug. Oh, yes.
01:37:20
Speaker
I'm radiating positivity. It's all good vibes. So many good vibes. Oh, there it is. um So yeah, that gives us an average average score of 1.75. Yeah, I'm giving it three stars, Tucker. Can you explain those three stars briefly, just so I can get an idea of why? Because you didn't seem to really like it that much either. um I like the performances. Three stars? Yeah.
01:37:48
Speaker
Yeah, like I said, it's it's mediocre. It's fine with moments of greatness. That's an extra star or extra half star. I'm not judging you. I'm just trying to understand. are you i like Go ahead.
01:38:02
Speaker
Because here's the thing, this is also as the, I think it was the Metacritic summary or maybe the Rotten Tomatoes summary said, it is also a horror movie entirely devoid of scares. That is very bad.
Nostalgia and Reappraisal of Films
01:38:21
Speaker
And then but but again, it's doing what the universal monster movies were doing. It's just that those don't read scary now either. Sure. um But you have like, you've got the big sets, you've got the the you've got really good performances, I think from from top to bottom, the entire cast, even the characters that are not given much to do are still doing really good work, ah particularly Hopkins, particularly weaving I and again, I, I defend del Toro in this. I think he's i think he's doing good stuff here. um You may disagree and that's fine, but I continue to defend. I like the use of practical effects when the movie uses them. um i I particularly like that they did the makeup effects. Do I like how those are um employed? Not necessarily, but I like that they're used.
01:39:14
Speaker
Um, and I, I don't know, i I appreciate the ambition of something like this. I, do I wish we'd gotten the original, uh, Mark Romanek version? Yeah. Do I want to see what that one looks like more than this one? Yeah. Would I probably rate this movie like four, four and a half stars if it existed? Absolutely. But, and again, I, this, and this needs to be stated. I love werewolves.
01:39:40
Speaker
You're a werewolf, dude. At the end of the day, I like werewolves and wolfmen. Like those are some of um those are my favorite movie monsters, even more than gremlins. And you all know how much I love gremlins. I love soldiers guy here. Oh, yeah young soldiers guy. It's it's why I'm sorry, Tucker. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Oh, what I was saying was so very trivial. So please continue.
01:40:04
Speaker
It's it's it's why for me, the best VHS segment and by VHS segment, I mean segment in the VHS horror anthology series will always be um the alien slumber party one because I have such a fondness for aliens and UFO stuff that like I so I I get I get that I disagree with you, Steven, but I also understand where you're coming from. And that's and that's fine. We as long as at the end of the day, we all recognize that we're still friends.
01:40:32
Speaker
We're all friends. We're friends. There we go. And then then david i believe that's what's important. The real worst man are the friends we made along the way. I will i will judge you so harshly over your taste in a film, Steven, but it will never affect how good of friends we are ever. That's fine.
01:40:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine. You, you have you have ah you to your face about it. But now you do it often. I was gonna say you do it often. The group chat is just constantly like, I can't believe you thought, like, you know what, I i and i had a better time with this movie than I did. And this is gonna hurt you, Tucker. But I have to say it. I had a better time with this movie than I did with the lady killers.
01:41:12
Speaker
No, I mean, like that hurts. Yes. But also that tracks because I know how much you hate that movie. So, yeah, the column, right? Not the healing studio. The lady kills are correct. Yeah. Yeah. No, the good one. Not the shitty original one. The colon brothers one. The good one.
01:41:30
Speaker
i I also want to mention, it because I didn't do it earlier, um ah early performance by young Asa Butterfield in this movie as Benicio del Toro's baby little brother. um So yeah, the the guy who would be Ender in Ender's game. um he ended it The guy who was that close to being Spider-Man. Asa Butterfield, yeah. But there we go. That is our episode on 2010's The Wolf Man.
01:42:00
Speaker
Jim, I know that the cast of Cthulhu is on an indefinite hiatus at the moment. is it Is it dead and gone? Is it never coming back? Can we live in hope? What's what's what's the good word? it's It's pretty much dead and gone, I would say. not Not out of any design. It was really just kind of um are are our schedules were kind of not syncing up, um especially after the the birth of my son, because I just had less time to watch more things. um And so the the last episode we put out was October 2023, in which I interviewed um noted Lovecraft scholar ST Joshi. And there was kind of this idea that we'd kind of take a break for the rest of the year, and we just ended up
01:42:44
Speaker
never picking up it back up, really, maybe at at some point, but um <unk>s it's kind of it's kind of um it's kind of dead and buried. But if anyone is curious, it it was a podcast called the Castica Thula, which um me and my co-host James McCormick would discuss movies that were um adapted from or inspired by the works of HP Lovecraft. And that was anything from, you know, the ah literal straight adaptations such as From Beyond or um Reanimator, or the spiritual ones such as, um you know, Annihilation or
01:43:22
Speaker
in the mouth of madness, that kind of stuff, and and everything in between with some interviews and some things in there. um That was on Podbean. So by all means, seek out Casta Cthulhu. Otherwise, you can find me on Blue Sky at no one fixes teeth. I am nowhere else. um But really, if I leave nothing else of this world, um I want a tagline for a Lon Chaney biopic to be of all the roles he played, the greatest role was that of father. um So if there are any studio executives listening. There you go. There you go. Yes. Jim, why don't you throw your hat in to direct that? Seems like you've got ah seems like you've got a vision.
01:44:04
Speaker
um That's a good idea, but three weeks into it, I might get replaced by Joe Johnson for the whole thing I'm worried about. He hasn't done anything in a while. he's He's itching for a new project, I hear, yeah. He's hungry. ready So statistically now is a bad time. You should wait till he does something. and but Or wait till he's in the middle of something, because chances are very good he's not going to leave it. so There you go.
01:44:28
Speaker
yeah According to IMDB, he's got a couple of upcoming projects. So we'll I don't know, we'll see if any of those lands. fair um jim It is such a pleasure to have you back. It has been way to it's been over a year. And quite frankly, that is inexcusable. So we'll definitely try to have you back on sooner, rather than later, because it's it's such a pleasure. And if we can get you and James together on and on a single episode. ah Gosh, so much the better I would love that I would love to have a cast of Cthulhu reunion on this show. You know, and the thing was he was because I was working during the day and then I had a kid and he was working nights. um And that's where the the schedule the schedule snafus always came in. He is he is now working a different job where he does occasionally work nights, but not like overnight shifts. So there is there is a possibility of that happening. or So I don't want to promise anything. But the the you know, the the the odds are are better now than they were this time last year, I would say.
01:45:25
Speaker
And honestly, it's been a while since we've had James on too. like we need to just we're we that That's something we need to rectify as well, because I don't think we've had him on since I Am Legend. um So we need to get get him back on there too. Sure. Absolutely. Well, ah again, Jim, such a thrill. anytime anything else you want out I know we'll have you back for a firewalk with me. Anything else ah that you may want to cover, let us know, and we'll throw you on the schedule for it. and absolutely get that get that cooking. But this is the disenfranchised podcast. This is the show where we talk about those failed franchise starters. And you can find us on many forms of social media, gosh, ah blue sky, Instagram, Facebook, and what's the other one YouTube ah in letterboxed. at Disinfranch Pod. Find us at all those places. Shoot us an email, disinfranchpod at gmail dot.com to hear your words read on the podcast. Also, ah leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. That goes a long way to helping us find more people like you. Hey, join the official conversation of the Disinfranchise Podcast at patreon dot.com slash Disinfranch Pod.
01:46:32
Speaker
It costs no money to join the official conversation. You'll get main feed episodes dropped in the Patreon feed every week and get to talk directly to Tucker and I. We do often respond in those feeds. If you're going to find us, find us there. ah You could also join for $5 a month and get access to a whole lot more content behind that paywall as well, including um at the beginning of every month, we'll let you know exactly what we've got coming in the month, or at least as close to exact as we can get at the beginning of the month, scheduling issues notwithstanding. um But hey, that's all great ways to support us and find us. You can find me, Steven Foxworthy, your intrepid host on Blue Sky Instagram, ah letterboxed at
01:47:19
Speaker
Chewy walrus ah if Brett ever decides to emerge from the woods you might be able to find him on blue sky and Instagram and letterboxed at sus underscore warlock or just sus warlock on blue sky Tucker Where can we find you these days?
01:47:36
Speaker
Well, as you know, Steven, I always like to take this opportunity when you hand it over to me for social media handles and such to kind of wrap up and say anything that I forgot to say during the podcast proper. And I'd like to mention
01:47:53
Speaker
ah Jim, you brought up ah From Beyond and Reanimator when you were talking about Lovecraft. And I just think it's kind of rad that Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, directed by this film's director, Joe Johnston, ah was written by Brian Usna and Stuart Gordon, who were responsible for both From Beyond and Reanimator. Yep, correct, yeah.
01:48:16
Speaker
Anyway, you can find me on Instagram and YouTube at ice909. That's I-C-E-N-I-N-E, the number zero and the number nine. Also on InstaScrams, you can find me at tuckmugs. That's tuck underscore mugs. We had three posts in December, and ah not only have I not posted this mug,
01:48:40
Speaker
yet, but I just realized I haven't posted my weird Lake Tahoe mug that makes my teeth feel weird. No, I was drinking out of that the other day and I was like, hey, man, did I? I guess I didn't. and I looked so I mean, I've got some stuff in my back pocket. I got to get with the social media manager. I'm hoping we can get ah two to three posts out this month on Tuck mugs, maybe a guest post from ah from anybody really like just send it send your guest post the photo and the description if you're familiar with the format if you follow tuck mugs you're familiar with the format ah send that to disenfranchpod at gmail dot.com or just dm tuck mugs if you're following tuck mugs just dm us on instagram you can send a photo you can send the text and we'll pop it right on there and we'll get with our social media manager
01:49:35
Speaker
and He'll throw that bitch on there, and it'll be fantastic ah tuck underscore mugs on Instagram
01:49:43
Speaker
Right on. I do want to point out, Jim, um I just found the At the Mountains of Madness table read. I am absolutely putting that in the show notes so that people can check that out. Because that was that was good. that Brett and I both on that episode. And it's a good time. Oh, nice. That was our most listened to episode. Yeah, that was, that was um I think, Christmas of, if not 2020, then 2021. But it was definitely a a peak campaign campaign. 2021. Yeah.
01:50:08
Speaker
um It's and it's it features also ah wild Lehman Kessler, like the guy who ah the mayor of Gambier, Ohio, who is super famous on TikTok um in that episode, which I was like Brett followed him on TikTok at the time and Brett was like seriously geeking out that entire table read like texting me. I know this guy. This is so cool. So that was I think because he was involved with I got the idea from the pod and the pendulum did a table read of Kari Fukunaga's IT script. Which is how you and I met and how we connected. Yeah. yeah And so that's that's where I got that idea from. And that was that was really cool participation. And it was, um you know, you can hear us talk more about that um between UI and the listeners like didn't love Del Toro's script for it. um I still would have preferred to see that over Prometheus, which was apparently the idea or the film that killed his idea of doing At the Mountains of Madness.
01:51:07
Speaker
Um, but yeah, by all means, check that out. and And let me also just say my, my one final thing, folks, I am now following disenfranchised on letterbox. And they're legit. One of their four favorite movies is The Rocketeer. um So I got i gotta to give it to you. Also, um Tucker giving three stars to Madam Web. You are insane. So sorry. theres Look, there's it's it's it's about a perspective with that film. If you don't think about how much it costs, if you tell yourself this if you don't think about how bad it sucks. Yeah.
01:51:38
Speaker
if If you say to yourself, this is a B movie this costs like 15 million to make then you're Jerry Seinfeld and Matthew Broderick as bees just flying around in the background I I did I do have a co-worker who gave it five stars on letterbox and his review that's his a lot His review was if you don't like this movie, you're misogynist now I should say so a meme review then he was doing it has he has the kind of like um tone of voice and print and presentation where you can never tell if he's joking or serious. Never. I know the time. So that like sounds exhausting. Yeah, he'll he'll he'll come in the room, he'll say something, everyone will laugh, and then he'll leave without laughing. And it's like, was that a joke? I can't tell. So um take basically anything he says with
01:52:32
Speaker
What's more than a grain of salt, an entire shaker of salt? A salt lick is what I usually say. Just take it with a salt lick, because it's not going down otherwise. Yes, correct. One little salt packet. At any rate, this has been the disenfranchised podcast for my co-host Tucker, the absent Brett Wright, and the great, as always, Jim Roner. Until next time, I got to find my quote here. Again, I lost it.
01:53:01
Speaker
Um, it is said there is no sin in killing a beast only in killing a man, but where does one begin and the other end? Fucking Gene Simmons.