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247- "Don't make her take her vegan posters down!" Going Vegan: Shane's Story
110 Plays18 days ago
NEW EPISODE! Following our re-release of all eighteen 'classic' Going Vegan episodes, we present the brilliant Shane's story of going vegan in the USA! This Going Vegan series shines a spotlight on the huge variety of everyday normal folk who choose to avoid animal expoitation through choosing a vegan lifestyle, and this episode is no exception; a wonderfully insightful story of how someone can improve outcomes for animals in ANY context. GO SHANE!
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With our podcasts, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights, as well as picking a 'timeless' vegan or animal rights issue, and discussing it in more depth.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Shane & Ant
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Transcript
Humorous Vegan Struggles
00:00:03
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brody! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:15
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry? True education. younger generation are getting know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of things, you know.
00:00:27
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice.
00:00:37
Speaker
As long as donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:46
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:49
Speaker
vision. and Hello everyone, welcome to the show. We are super, super delighted to be having this lovely conversation between myself and Shane. Hi Shane, how are you doing?
00:01:01
Speaker
Good, how are you? Yeah, I'm great, I'm great. I'm really excited to to have this space to chat. oh i'm I'm not just being sycophantic here, I always like like sharing the recording space with you, but it feels like this is just a nice opportunity to get to know you and your vegan story a bit better, so...
Podcast Themes and Formats
00:01:19
Speaker
feels really lovely i'm really looking forward to it yeah so for listeners who've not heard one of our going vegan shows before this is where we'll invite folk to reminisce and go go back in time and think about not just when they went vegan decided to go vegan but maybe some things before then as well and as well like you know how the process has been afterwards um and what that journey looks like. We've got, if you scroll back in your podcast feed, you've got our normal news show that's with a yellow background and the pink text, that's Vegan Week, where we talk about the week's news. Then there's the vegan talk ones where we talk about all manner of different topics. That's with the black text on the yellow background. But we have got 18 and now 19 of these now going vegan shows.
Shane's Journey to Veganism
00:02:09
Speaker
They're with the green text and You'll recognize folk on there, Dominic, Kate, Julie, folk that you'll know, as well as folk who have literally just done a Going Vegan show. And then that's all they've ever done with us for the falafel. and But Shane, you've done lots of episodes with us. So folk yeah may well already know your voice and a little bit about you. Let's get straight in there then. Like, how far back can you go? What's that what's the origin of your vegan story? What's the first little kernel of vegan-ness story? So i was thinking about this because I was listening to some of the Go Vegan, Going Vegan episodes that dropped recently. And I was thinking that there are really like two times in my childhood that I remember making an association between the animals that we had on our wall and dinner.
00:03:03
Speaker
So let me let me go back so that makes more sense. i I grew up in kind of a very middle class, conservative, Midwestern family. So I was born in Michigan. My great-grandparents were Dutch immigrants, and my grandparents and my parents, they like...
00:03:20
Speaker
basically kind of cooked like Dutch farmers. They, every meal was like meat, a green vegetable, bread or potatoes at every meal. So that was how I grew up. We didn't go out to eat a lot. We, you know, my, we cooked at home and we ate this very, uh, you know, traditional kind of food. My dad was a hunter and a fisher.
00:03:38
Speaker
We had stuffed, what is that called when they stuff it? Um, Oh, I don't know. Oh, i like stuffed animals. Taxidermy. Taxidermy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:48
Speaker
We had taxidermied bodies of duck on our walls. We had deer heads on our walls. And so at one point, so my dad was, I was hunting. And I remember that at one point my mom had made us chili for dinner and we were eating it and I thought it tasted different. And so I said to like, you know, my mom or dad, I said, oh, this tastes kind of weird. And my dad started laughing and I was like, why are you laughing? He's like, ha ha, you're eating Bambi. Absolutely stupid thing for him to say, but that's what he said.
00:04:20
Speaker
And I was like, what? My mom's like, don't say that. It's venison. Your dad, we processed the venison from the deer he killed. And that's what I put in this. Well, of course, my sister and I were like, well, we're not eating this now. You know, and so we wouldn't eat it.
00:04:33
Speaker
And then another time, my mom has always liked to call herself like an adventurous eater. And she will eat like anything. And um she liked to eat cow's tongue. Okay. And I had never eaten that. But at one point she was like, Oh, just try it. Just try it. i'm I was probably like seven or eight years old. And so I tried it and like, you could, this is horrible for, I know vegans, I'm sorry. um you could like feel the taste buds of the cow when i was when I was chewing it or whatever. And it was so disgusting. And that kind of made connection for me. Like, hey, this thing on the wall is something that was killed and now I'm eating it. Or this thing my mom is eating is actually like like, this tongue is like my tongue. yeah So those were those were two things that that I remember from my childhood. That I mean, when you think about it, like even those who eat a lot of meat or eat meat, you know, every day or whatever, it's rare that you could actually say, well, that which I am eating,
00:05:37
Speaker
I really identify with as having myself, like wit we're all made of flesh, sure. But like, I don't know, like flesh is just, it's just all over us, isn't it? Like, i don't know. yeah One bit of flesh is the same as the next. Like, can we really identify with that when we're, you know, when we're biting into some some pork chops or what have you, but yeah, like ah a tongue or something that's like, I have a tongue. yeah Goodness me, goodness me, what an experience.
00:06:06
Speaker
So is is that like a thing that stays with you in ah in a latent way then for years and years or like ah are the next steps like quite quick in succession from there? Where where do we go from there?
00:06:19
Speaker
I think it was in the back of my mind. But i what I remember is that um i was 13 years old. And by this time, we had moved to Texas. And this was back in the and the eighty s So this was the days when we had like actual magazines, like print magazines. And my parents got, like it was like Time or Newsweek magazine. And I was flipping through it. And I saw an ad from the Humane Farming Association. And they're still around and they're still doing this. And they were how to we're advertising their veal boycott.
00:06:50
Speaker
Because i looked when I was thinking about this, I went i looked at their website and i was like, oh, they still have the veal boycott going on. So this has been going on a long time. And it was talking about we're boycotting veal because they they are in these tiny crates. They never turn around. They're killed a very young age. And And I was like, mom, did you, know I was 13 and I was like, mom, did you know about this? You know, i said, I'm not going to eat veal anymore because of this. And my mom's like, when are we eating veal? Like I'm not buying veal and serving you veal. I mean, you know, she's like, what are you talking about? We're not rich, you know? And then she said something to the effect of,
00:07:27
Speaker
Well, do you think that it's any different for like chickens or whatever that you're eating? And I was like, what? What? And like that, I just put it together. And I said, well, then I'm not going to eat any meat, any animals.
00:07:41
Speaker
And i i think to this day, she wishes she had not said that because I meant it. And that's when I went vegetarian. I was like, oh, I'm not eating any animals. and And it didn't matter what happened. It didn't, you know, she cried at Thanksgiving because I wouldn't eat the turkey. um She was, you know, didn't want to cook for me anymore. She was, you know, it took a long time for her to like get past the fact that I was not going to eat.
00:08:06
Speaker
If she put green beans and chicken and, um, rolls on the table, i was going to eat the green beans and the rolls and I wasn't going to eat the chicken. And she was like, oh, you're going to get sick, blah, blah, blah. I said, well, I'm not doing it.
00:08:17
Speaker
And I'm kind of stubborn. So when I said it, I didn't do it. Yeah, I mean, um obviously animal rights and animal wellbeing is it like at the center of a vegan consciousness and and mindset. But like when you're describing that, I'm really appealing for your mum in terms of like, you know, but for a well-meaning person that like wants their child to be healthy and like feeling like, oh gosh, to have a throwback, a slip of the tongue to to kind of, yeah, say something that then...
00:08:50
Speaker
has that impact. like I can really feel for her. And thank goodness for for the many animals who' whose lives are ah better off because Shane's decided not to eat animals from that point. Yeah, i think I think she thought that she was going to say, like, well, what do you think is different for chickens? And then I was going to be like, oh, well, I can't not eat chicken because it was pretty easy not to eat veal since I wasn't eating veal anyway. I don't think I've ever had veal. And so it was pretty easy for that. But then I i don't think she expected me to go in the other direction and say, oh, well, fine, then I'm not going to eat that either. mean, I was not a big meat eater. I didn't really, i wasn't excited about, like, if there was going to be chicken or steak. I was like, okay. I mean, I guess I probably like like McDonald's hamburgers maybe or something, but
00:09:33
Speaker
it wasn't a big thing for me. So yeah. And so you've described yourself as being stubborn there. Like there's other things in your life where you're, you know, when you say something, you stick to it, that sort of thing. So was that was the case with that then it's just like, well, I've, I've said this, I've decided this. So, so
Activism and High School
00:09:52
Speaker
that's it.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, and i remember too, when I went into high school, this was the time when they were doing a lot of stuff about like um mothers against drunk drivers and stuff when that hope that was really popular. And so they were wanting all of us to make posters like about different causes that they could hang up for some reason. And so I made a poster about boycotting me.
00:10:14
Speaker
And, you know, not thinking this was in any way controversial, right? And everyone else had their other posters. And so the I you know brought it and they were going to hang it up. And the principal calls me a aside. Now, i wasn't like a I was a good student. I was not the kind of person who was going to get called into the principal's office.
00:10:31
Speaker
And he says to me, um well, ah you know I don't think we can put this poster up. And I said, well, why not? i you know my my my topic is boycotting me. He said, well, why don't you make a poster boycott beer?
00:10:45
Speaker
I said, well, I don't care about boycotting beer. You know, I want to boycott. I want everyone to boycott me. And he said, well, you know, we're, you know, all right, little lady, we're not going to do that. And that was the end of that. So that actually made me really mad. And at this, again, at this point, there wasn't like the internet or anything.
00:11:02
Speaker
And so, i um I feel like I went and wrote to like PETA and different organizations and had them send me like their like catalog and educational materials. And I ordered like stickers um because they would send stickers and they still probably do. And you could like go to the grocery store and stick them on like um meat in the grocery store. And I remember doing that. and I remember like going around ah at school and there were all the boycott beer and I'd stick my little like
00:11:33
Speaker
boycott meat like or whatever i don't know what the stickers were and I'd stick those meat is murder I remember that was one and I'd stick those on you know as I was walking past in class so that was kind of my way of um of getting back about that yeah but this was the days where you had to order things and and get your pamphlets and your magazines like through the mail and so that's what I did and i'm I'm sure my mom was like oh my god what is going on here but um how old were you at this stage Well, I was in high school, so I was probably like 15, 16, 17. Oh, amazing. Like those those ages. must have been was doing the group when i was at the grocery because i'm know my mom
00:12:11
Speaker
wasn't going to let me do, like if she was with me at the grocery store, she would have not let me do that. So I must have driven myself and gone in and like slapped stickers on the, and you know, they didn't have cameras and everything back then. So I must have done that.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah. I had to be old enough to drive. i I'm kind of just feeling like a ah sentiment of like, Oh goodness me. Don't, don't make Shane mad. You'll, you'll, you'll regret it. Don't, don't stop her doing and a boycott me poster. You'll regret it. You'll get 10 times the word back. Oh, they got stickers on their other posters. I'm sure it was horrible. Yeah, yeah. So so like, were there difficulties then at all?
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't really have any support at all. um And, um you know, like I said, my mom was would cry, ah you know, at Thanksgiving, where was traditionally in the United States, they have turkey, and this was a big deal. um I didn't know anybody else who was vegan or vegetarian. I didn't know, at that point, I did not know anything, what vegan was.
00:13:08
Speaker
And um yeah, I didn't know anybody else who who did that. I mean, the all I knew was maybe reading about somebody like Gandhi or somebody like that who was vegetarian. so it But i didn't I think that the only reason that didn't bother me was because I liked being different.
00:13:25
Speaker
And I mean, like my friends and I used to like, we would wear like all black to school and black lipstick and black nail polish. And we'd you know, run around on the weekends at the mall and pretend that we were bitten by vampires. And we liked, you know, being weird and different. So and I think it didn't bother me that I was like, oh, I'm just i'm different than you guys. And that's okay. You know?
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. that's that's That's quite common, I think, isn't it? for I don't know how much is the case for for vegans in 2026 that you need to be okay with being different, but certainly you know going going back a few years, i'm I'm sure there are examples of people who absolutely hate it, but...
00:14:06
Speaker
like I think pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to who was vegan 10, 15 years ago plus like you you needed to be okay with with being different. But actually we've not spoken about the vegan part of your journey. So where where does that come
College Years and Vegan Philosophy
00:14:21
Speaker
into the picture? um So after i was, so when I was in college, was,
00:14:28
Speaker
think I feel like I did do a little – I don't think there was like a PETA group or anything on on campus, but I feel like I did try to make some connections there initially. And then after college, I went to the 1996 March for the Animals in Washington, D.C.
00:14:44
Speaker
I had read about it in a magazine. And that's that is what I remember hearing about veganism. I might have heard about it before that, but that's when I remember because it was a big convention. they All the food was vegan.
00:14:57
Speaker
And they had speakers like Paul Watson from Sea Shepherd was there. Tom Regan, who's a philosopher, was there. I feel like there were a lot of activists there and I heard them speak. And that's when I found and we did, we actually marched to the Capitol and heard more speakers. And I guess that there was like a march in the, earlier in the nineties that had been like ah a bigger march. But to me, it seemed like a lot of people. And I thought that was just amazing.
00:15:22
Speaker
And um so that's when I heard about veganism. So I came back from that and I went vegan. I joined this group in ah Houston called the Houston Animal Rights Team, which like the an acronym was HART, H-A-R-T.
00:15:36
Speaker
And we would do protests at the rodeo and at the circus. We would protest against fur. And so, and they were all vegan. And so that was like when I, then, i kind of had vegan acquaintances and I was vegan.
00:15:49
Speaker
I was not able to sustain being vegan though so i did go back to being vegetarian i think i just i didn't know how to cook and i was like ah a teacher and i was at a school where i mean these are all just excuses but you know it was i was at a school with a lot of is context yeah it's context that i was at a school with a lot of high-risk students meaning like they were in gangs or um Lots of things. And so I was at a very difficult job. i it was just a very It was very difficult for me and I was not able to sustain it. I did sustain being vegetarian. and I never did go back on that. But yeah, I couldn't keep being vegan. i think the heart group kind of broke up or I wasn't able to keep doing it.
00:16:36
Speaker
I do remember there was an issue a protest once where um i think we I feel like we were standing on public property, but the police were threatening to arrest us. And I was thinking, I cannot get arrested. I'm a teacher. I will lose my job if I get arrested.
00:16:50
Speaker
Not that I was making a lot of money, but that I you know i needed it. So I was like, um yeah, i you know I just don't know if I can keep doing these. So um yeah, then I went back to being vegetarian and then Can I pause you? Yeah. So I'm interested, just the way that you're telling that it's sounding like being vegan then for you is synonymous with the activism at the same time. Is that correct? Or were they separate things in your mind? I feel like you're right. I hadn't thought about it that way, but I feel like, yeah, it was kind of synonymous. Yeah. And I think it was also just very, it was difficult to get foods that I could eat. And I wasn't, like I said, I wasn't very good at cooking, you know, about the time when my mom probably would have been teaching me to cook.
00:17:37
Speaker
I was vegetarian and we weren't getting along on that. So she would be like, oh, let me show you how to cook an omelet. You know, well, that's a vegetarian, I guess. But she'd probably want to put something in. I didn't want to learn. So I didn't know how to cook.
00:17:49
Speaker
And the few things that I did know how to cook, I mean, i I didn't really know how to make them vegan, you know. Yeah. I mean, when you when you first said it was 1996, when you're going vegan, I'm thinking like, I mean, i i don't know much about Texas or or the States in general, but I was thinking like flipping heck, like that that sounds like a challenging situation by itself. And I'm i'm just thinking as well, I mean, maybe this is two separate points. But actually, if the ask of veganism is that you have to avoid using these foods and and and drinks in your diet, you have to abstain from certain practices or wearing certain clothes or what have you, and you have to go to protests and things like that. I mean, some people would be totally up for that. um unable to do it because of their personality and their situation.
00:18:49
Speaker
But like, I would guess that there are more people, the majority of people that that is too much too soon. And I i don't know what it was like in the late nineties in your context for that, but goodness me doing that relatively unaccompanied as well. Like, was there someone going vegan at the same time as you or Like were you know you were the person in your life doing that. So that's a heck of a lot, isn't it? Yeah, and I'm thinking now too um that there weren't like web websites. I mean, there was a little bit of internet back then, but there weren't web websites with recipes and stuff. Like now I'd be like, oh, I wanna make this. well Or i I don't know what to make for dinner and I'll look up quick vegan recipe or something, right?
00:19:31
Speaker
There wasn't that. I did get like a magazine, like Veggie Times or Vegetarian Times or something, and that had recipes. but they were all mostly vegetarian. And so, okay, then I could make that, but they might have like cheese in them. And I don't recall seeing any, I lived like right behind a health food store, but I don't recall seeing any vegan cheese I did buy like rice milk. I don't even know if they had soy milk back then. And so I used to have like rice milk in my cereal, but I'm probably the cereal might not have been vegan.
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, was things like that. was like, oh, I want, I'm just going to eat cereal or, you know, cook this pasta recipe or something like that. So, I mean, I feel like I was mainly vegan, but it was just that it was hard. There weren't a lot of, I wouldn't have known what to do if I didn't want to use an egg in something. I would have not, how, I didn't know how to find that information. I probably could have tried harder, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, again, i'm i'm kind of just thinking about generally when folk are making their way in the world, like there's a lot of pressure on people. I don't know how much it's spoken about, probably more so nowadays, but like when you're in your 20s, like there's a lot going on. You're holding a lot. And very often, like you see signs of that in in in people in terms of you know, maladaptive coping strategies and things like that. Just just making your way in the world in your twenties is, is hard work. I'd be really keen to hear like those, those next steps of your journey then. And yeah, I'll, I've got another question I want to ask about that, but do you tell us some more first. You tell us some more first. All
Commitment to Veganism in 2015
00:21:05
Speaker
right. So basically, it wasn't until about 2015 then that I was like, okay, I really got to go vegan again. i really, i have to do this because, i mean, I think I'd been vegan for a few years, like maybe it's from 96 to 2000 or around there. And then it was just too hard. And so then I said, no, I need to do this again. And by then I had a daughter.
00:21:26
Speaker
i was married. and she was, i don't know, like six or something. So it was like, okay, I can, I can handle this. So I decided i knew a little bit how to cook because i obviously had to feed my kid. So, um,
00:21:40
Speaker
I knew I could commit to it. So I went vegan. Well, I think what I did at the end of 2015 is I started thinking like the main things, the only things that I were eating really that weren't vegan was I would have like yogurt for lunch. So I looked around and I found some yogurt alternatives like that were made with like soy milk or oat milk or something like that.
00:21:57
Speaker
And then I, um and I think like maybe like cheese, like I'd have like grilled cheese or something like that. And so then I found like some alternate cheese, cheeses. So when 2016, like January, I said, okay, I told everybody ahead of time, I'm going vegan.
00:22:12
Speaker
I'm not going to eat this anymore. Like the things that you thought you could serve me that were just vegetarian. If I'm over at your house, I can't, I'm not doing that. And so then in 2016, I went vegan and and um I've stayed vegan since then. Amazing. And presumably all those people that you gave that pre-warning to were terrified that you were going to cover all of their possessions in stickers if they did the wrong thing. Or like, what was the reception from folk around you? Yeah.
00:22:41
Speaker
I think that they were like, if you want to do that, that's fine. But I don't know how to how to do anything about that. So, OK, that's your decision. Go ahead and do that. Yeah, you're on your own.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I think like a lot of times friends and family like forget that I'm vegan. or I don't know that they do now because it's been 10 years, but ah they would forget, which I don't know if they just didn't care or if, I don't know, it was passive aggressive or what, but they would forget Um, I, I love hearing all the stories from the other going vegan commentators about how they went vegan and their partner went vegan too. And all that, I, that did not happen for me. I didn't, you know, and I feel like I knew sometimes like you, you're asking in these conversations, you ask like, what would you do differently if you could go back? If I could go back, I feel like I would try to have made more of an effort to,
00:23:42
Speaker
make friends that were vegan and surround myself with vegan people or vet at least vegetarian and not um think that that wasn't important because then what happens is you get into your life and you realize I don't have those connections and um I'm just – I feel unsupported and I feel like, you know, kind of like I'm not lonely like as a person but lonely and as being a vegan and my beliefs or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's a big deal, isn't it? Like having people beside you, even if not physically, it could be virtually, who you feel resonate with certain values or or interests or things like that, isn't it? that's it's It's a big deal. Would would you say then that's the the hardest part of of being vegan now?
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, ah because i have these attitudes and these beliefs and you care about people, you love people and then You see them doing things that are so against what your morality is telling you is okay. And you're thinking that's just wrong and why can you not see that?
00:24:53
Speaker
But what I found is nothing I've said, nothing I've done, all the – I mean I've yelled, I've talked rationally – I've given people books. I've um written texts and emails and, you know, had conversations at restaurants and taken them to vegan places. And it's not made any difference with those people. So, um yeah, that's hard.
00:25:18
Speaker
It's hard when your people that you care about don't agree on something that is so very important to you and so fundamental to who you are. And they cannot understand that.
00:25:29
Speaker
And in fact, we'll tell you that you're radical. And I'm thinking, I'm radical. No, look at what happened. Now that's radical. What what you're contributing to is radical. I'm not being radical. But you know you're like screaming into the wilderness saying that. Yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. It's a big deal. And actually, like, ah I'll... I'll reassure myself that, I don't know, from from a numbers point of view, the animals don't care whether it's my dad that goes vegan or some random person that I meet once or or speak to online or whatever. that that goes vegan. and And actually, if it's if's going to break down my relationship with ah ah key person in my life by by trying too hard to get them to to change their lifestyle, then it's better for the animals that I don't push down that avenue. yeah and And at the same time, it yeah. No, exactly. I've had to consciously make a decision at at you know, the last like couple of years, just to not, like I told my mom, like, you know, just, I said to her specifically, listen, I am not going to talk to you about
00:26:43
Speaker
my feelings about animals and veganism, because I want to preserve this relationship between us, you know, and you, you are the only mom that I have. I want to have a relationship with you. The other side was that, of that was that she had to not talk about politics with me. Like I said, now you're not going to talk about your political beliefs and I'm not going to talk about my veganism and we, we can,
00:27:07
Speaker
be together. We can be a family, you know, because it was getting to the point where we could not speak without getting angry at each other. My my family and I have drawn similar lines, different topics. But yeah, it's it's just been a way of but focusing on the positives, preserving that which unites us rather than focusing on the bits that the divide us. Something that I wanted to ask about the time between being vegan now and your first few years of being vegan I'm interested in like your identity in that period and how, if at all, it has changed through being vegan or not.
00:27:50
Speaker
Because it sounds like on a practical level, there's not a massive amount of difference in terms of like the things that you're spending your money on. Yes, that there were some animal products in the time that you were vegetarian, sort of in the in the early noughties, but not but not masses by the sounds of it. but and And you're using a different label during those times, but like, are you still feeling like an animal advocate, like passionate about animal rights? Or has there been an element ah of,
00:28:22
Speaker
when you're vegan and you feel like you can stay being vegan, has that changed your identity with regards to the cause of animal rights, animal justice?
00:28:33
Speaker
I feel like it's made me internally feel like I wasn't doing things that were against my beliefs because I think when I was vegetarian, i kind of knew in the back of my mind, like for example, like with dairy cows, I kind of knew like they had to be pregnant and they had to theyd take the cows away from them. But I would kind of like – tell myself, oh, it doesn't hurt the cows to drink milk. Like, I mean, i so I feel like now I don't have to like lie to myself or there's not that cognitive dissonance. But even when I was vegetarian, I feel like I still cared a lot about animal rights because I remember being a teacher and like reading something about like they're trying to ban bullfighting in Spain. And my students at that point, I taught English and they were working on writing persuasive letters.
00:29:24
Speaker
And I said, oh, well, if you want extra credit, you can write a letter to the whoever in Spain and you know, tell them that they should boycott bullfighting. And so the kids were like, okay. And a lot of them actually spoke Spanish. They were like, can I write it in Spanish? was like, go for it. Yeah, do it. I think I've spoken him before about i worked when at the school that I worked at, well, one of the schools, um we were out in like ah temporary buildings. And so dogs would come in from the neighborhood and the kids always knew like to come to me, you know, there's a dog, you know, miss. Um, can you help the dog? And i I took in numerous dogs to a shelter or, you know, helped find whoever was supposed to be taking care of them. So they, everybody knew I was the veterinarian, and even though I kept telling me it was a vegetarian, they kept telling me it was a veteran. They kept thinking I was a veterinarian. And, um,
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, they all knew that about me. And they would ask me stupid questions. but I mean, they're kids, so. But they would say, like, but what if you hit an animal on the road? Then would you eat the animal? you know, things like that. and I'm like, no, would you hit an animal you had on the road? Like, that's the first thought. of a vegetarian why don't you be careful when you're driving yeah i mean i don't know but they would just want to know like under what circumstances would i eat yeah yeah what i eat meat you know yeah so i just picked these vegetarians who get a bloodlust when they hit accidentally hit an animal on the road they've been avoiding ending animals lives for like decades but that as soon as they see that oh that animal's dead now this is my chance and just their eyes yeah like they were accidentally killed so it's okay don't know um
00:31:01
Speaker
And I remember, too, that I worked with the SPCA at one point and I brought um in some SPCA education people um to talk about, like, ah taking care of animals because the kids are always telling me stories about ah bad things that happened to their pets.
00:31:16
Speaker
um So i I did that. And I actually remember, too, when I graduated from college, I graduated with a degree in psychology. And i didn't, I wanted to go to graduate school initially. And then I didn't get in where I wanted to go.
00:31:30
Speaker
And so I just kind of moved home with my parents. And um I went, I went to work at the SBCA. I went, I went and interviewed for a job. And I said, well, um you know, I want to, I think this was a time when it was on TV, there was like a a show about like like, I don't know, they would go and rescue animals. It was like police officers and they would go and like help animals who are being abused and neglected, like dogs and cats or whatever. And I said, I want to do that. It was like animal investigators or something. And they said, well, you kind of need to have like police police training. You need to be in the police officer to do that. Well, I didn't want to be a police officer. So I was like, oh, okay. i don't want to do that. And then I said, well, what about like education? Could I go to schools and like talk about it? And they said, well, you had, I need to have an education degree for that.
00:32:12
Speaker
I said, oh, okay. So then i applied to the university. If you student to get my teaching certificate, I was like, I'll get my teaching certificate and I'll have a degree in it. then I can go and I can, you know, be an animal educator. I didn't end up doing that. And in fact, I spent that whole summer, i cleaned cages, you know, I'd have to get there like,
00:32:30
Speaker
six in the morning and I'd clean like cages for dogs and cats and help with adoptions and stuff like that. and Let me tell you, that was humbling. That was humbling after you have a four-year degree. And I'm sure my parents were like, what is this girl going to do with her life? We just paid for her to go to school for four years. And now she is cleaning cages for a minimum wage.
00:32:48
Speaker
But um yeah, then I went to, and I got my master's in education and I started teaching. And then I stayed, I ended up staying teaching. Well, for, yeah, for a while. Can I ask, so it it sounds like we've started off like the vegetarian journey with like real steadfast, right, I'm doing this thing, I'm sticking to it.
00:33:10
Speaker
um And then like there's been this journey towards vegetarianism. veganism and you've spoken about some things that like you might have done differently or or ah things that have been quite tricky i'm wondering if there have been other things that have surprised you about the journey particularly if it's related to the vegan part of that i think what surprised me is um i've Since working at the SPCA, a I've also worked at a rescue.
00:33:43
Speaker
ah started volunteering after the Harvey was a really bad hurricane that we had in Houston in 2017. And I started volunteering at this rescue called Houston Pets Alive and just walking dogs. And then eventually i couldn't.
00:33:56
Speaker
I mean, I had a young child and I had to get her to school and and I had a job and everything. So I couldn't get over and do that. So I asked if there was something I could do to help online. And so I started approving like adoptions and things like that. And then I ended up over the pandemic actually working there. What I'm getting at is that what has surprised me is that in those circumstances where you have people that care so, so much about about these dogs and these cats that are in their rescue. I mean, the hours that we worked were
00:34:28
Speaker
crazy, especially during the pandemic because everybody was wanting to adopt. And any time of day and night, we were working on stuff. And um I mean, they just, it was our whole lives basically.
00:34:41
Speaker
But these people were not vegan. And they weren't even, most of them weren't even vegetarian. There were maybe a couple of vegetarians. And when I would go into the office, this was mainly remote, but after the pandemic and I would go into the office they would have like Chick-fil-A or, you know, all these meat things around. And I was just, I would say directly to them, why do you have so all this meat? I mean, is it not the same about a chicken or a cow? And they would just say, no, no, it's it's not the same. It's not, I just like dogs or whatever. And so that surprises me. I don't understand how people can put animals in different categories and kind of just shut that door and not see the similarities between them.
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'd love to understand that more. we We obviously have terms like speciesism that describes it, but that's not explaining it, is it? Yeah, maybe we need to do a separate series. Might be quite hard to recruit people to interview on that. But yeah, it's it's baffling. I mean, maybe maybe there's something about the the order in which you come to these things that might, might lead you to see things in a broader way that I would suggest veganism is in general animal rights. And maybe there's a different direction you approach these things from. I'm talking about like your life journey and, and,
00:35:57
Speaker
how you end up at ah an animal shelter or whatever perhaps yeah gosh that must have been so difficult goodness me goodness it's it and you get very close to the people because you're talking to them so much and it's just it was just very strange to me so I yeah I would have thought there would be more vegetarians and vegans and animal rescue Companion animal rescue. Yeah.
00:36:24
Speaker
But there are there aren't really. And maybe it's the welfare versus the abolition side of it. Like people wanting who are just interested in improving conditions maybe aren't so worried about whether the practices are completely outlawed, but they just want to make sure that maybe it's better. i don't i don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Veganism in the Big City
00:36:45
Speaker
I wonder if it's a case of just there being different obstacles in people's way. I mean, you've you've spoken about different obstacles you had. I wonder whether we could take some of those and do a bit of ah a time travel and and whether it's ah you helping out
00:37:02
Speaker
Shane in the past or folk who are coming up against similar obstacles now or in the future. Like, are there any particular hacks or things that you learned that sort of were disproportionately helpful in terms of like, oh, actually, that's a real quick and easy thing to do or a quick and easy thing to remember? Or this is a really great place to go that that kind of changes things for you and makes being vegan or making veganism be more enjoyable a lot more easily.
00:37:36
Speaker
I don't know if I have any hacks really. i Not that I can think of. I mean, you've you've mentioned being able to cook, like make things practical. That's not a quick thing.
00:37:46
Speaker
No, it's not for me. I'm not a particularly good cook either. I mean, I think I'm fine, but my family doesn't really get excited about eating my food. So, um I mean, i think it helps to live in a big city because there are a lot of, i mean, I know people have this impression of Texas. that um when I've been abroad, people will say things like, oh, do you ride a horse to work? I'm like, no, I live in Houston. Texas is very diverse, but in Houston and Dallas and San Antonio and Austin, these are very big cities. They're very liberal cities.
00:38:22
Speaker
And there are a lot of vegetarian and vegan restaurants in Houston. There's a lot there's a large population of Indian people, you know people from India here. And a lot of those people are are vegetarian. So there's there's always been a lot lot of those options. And i think it was probably the mid-2000s when I started seeing, like about when I was going vegan, like 2015, 2016, that I started seeing like some actually vegan restaurants, not just the vegetarian Indian restaurants. So having like a place like that to go,
00:38:53
Speaker
is really helpful. I started also seeing different vegan um expos and conventions. And i can remember like Vegandale and the Vegan Expo. And so going to things like that and finding out about the different restaurants and things that were around.
00:39:10
Speaker
So ah just, I think living in a big city is helpful. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I think, I mean, I know a few folk, I mean, Paul, who is regularly on the show, like he loves to go to every new different place that opens up and, and try all the different new products that are in the supermarkets and and stuff like that. I think I'm right in saying that.
00:39:32
Speaker
Whereas I think probably most folk, we don't, actually need hundreds of vegan restaurants do we or even vegan restaurants in themselves it could just be a couple places near to you that you know do a few different options or maybe even one thing that you just really like and that's enough isn't it like it doesn't have to be this amazing oasis of options like it's just having enough isn't it very often Yeah, and I have like two really close friends and um they're not vegan or vegetarian, but we always go, we meet once a month for dinner and we always go to this restaurant that has a dedicated vegan menu with like eight different things on it. And so I'm like, great, but we will go to this place. they Sometimes they order off the vegan menu, which I'm happy about. Sometimes they don't. But there's always something for me there. And, you know, a lot of times with my family, my dad will say like, oh, where do you want to go? I'll say, oh, let's go to this vegan restaurant.
00:40:29
Speaker
He's like, great, let's let's go, you know. Yeah. So yeah I'm not going to say anything else about him. Absolutely. um I've said enough things about my mom. Well, well, it's I mean, what we're doing is countercultural, isn't
Family Dynamics and Veganism
00:40:44
Speaker
it? So it's it's.
00:40:47
Speaker
percentage wise it's it's likely that we're gonna rub up against those those who are nearest and dearest to us because the chances are that they're not gonna hold those attitudes in the same way that we didn't grow up with them ourselves you know we know they've evolved they've evolved um within us but we didn't start off living that way so it's it's it's not a judgment on people it's just the the status quo isn't it Well, and I will say that, you know, my dad will listen when I talk about about things. He doesn't get emotional about it, which I guess is to be expected since for a guy of his, ah you know, from when he was born and his um age and everything. But and he doesn't hunt anymore. He doesn't really fish anymore. he I think he still does some fishing.
00:41:32
Speaker
But then like the last time we were eating, we're eating at a v vegan restaurant and he was just like, oh, I just admire you so much. I could never do this, which I'm sure every vegan has heard. And, you know, I think, well, dad, you could do you could do it too, you know? And he said, yeah, I know, but your mother cooks and she doesn't want to cook this. And, you know, I said, well, just tell her to cook vegan stuff that you want. And, you know, he's like, oh, I just can't do it. And then he started talking to me about how he wants to, like, do beekeeping and everything. And I should come out and see the land where he wants to have bees. And I was like, dad,
00:42:03
Speaker
i don't agree with you doing beekeeping. I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not going to go see your beekeeping land or whatever. he was like, oh, oh, you know, this that was a surprise, I suppose.
00:42:15
Speaker
to him that that was not vegan. But he would say, he'll will say things. Yeah, I remember when you were little and we'd go fishing and you would want to always want to throw the fish back because you'd say, oh, but what about their fish families? What about their mom and dad? Which just tells me like, okay, even as like a child, a young child, I was thinking about, oh no, I don't want to take these fish away from their family. I think I just had like that, I don't know empathy or or like concern for animals. I you know, just, it's sort of like something I was born with almost. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:46
Speaker
Well, and, and, and what's coming across to me is again, without being sycophantic here, but like the, the cause of animal rights and just animals in general has been better for there being somebody in your position advocating on behalf of animals in a variety of different ways for a long period of time. Like you've you've been doing this a long while now.
Progress in Animal Rights
00:43:13
Speaker
And i'm just I'm just wondering, that gives you a sense of perspective, I would imagine, in terms of where the movement has headed and how it's evolved. And I wonder if you have any insight as to what's been especially effective.
00:43:31
Speaker
Maybe there are some things that you might think, do you know what? I've seen over the decades that this sort of thing really doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. I wonder if there's any perspectives on that that you might have, good good or bad. I think that just the gradual pressure of groups on different areas of animal rights has made an impact. For example, like I was talking about how we used to protest at the circus, like at Barnum & Bailey.
00:44:01
Speaker
Well, they don't Barnum & Bailey isn't around anymore. I mean, finally, they ended up kind of bowing to that pressure. We used to go stand outside Saks Fifth Avenue and protest and Saks Fifth Avenue is going out of business and they don't think they've carried fur in their stores for a long time. So I feel like there is change.
00:44:21
Speaker
I also feel like I'm probably like the most pessimistic I've ever been in my life about things, just not just because of animal rights, but because I feel like right now we're in a period of backlash when there's a lot of pushback against it.
00:44:36
Speaker
But you just have to think about Like talking to you now makes me think about, okay, but look how far we've come. And I don't think that going into the future that the meat industry really can continue to keep what they are doing a secret as much as they were able to in all these times before there was so much, um so many cameras everywhere and so much social media and so much news. is I feel like it's harder to keep things a secret now.
00:45:05
Speaker
yeah. Hopefully, people are going to see that. And then when you have science catching up with like the cultivated meat and so on that, you know, because I just don't think from my experience, I just don't think some people are ever going to go vegan. They are never going to give up meat, but they might be willing to eat cultivated meat.
00:45:25
Speaker
Or if the prices go up, they might be willing not to buy it if it's too expensive. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, to that end, if we reach a ah a climate change imperative that forces the hands of of governments to say, well, this is just not acceptable anymore legally, than then maybe that would be a situation where folk wouldn't.
Societal Backlash Against Veganism
00:45:47
Speaker
I mean, to go back to your point of backlash, I don't personally take that as a sign that we've done anything wrong. And I'm not sure you were saying it in those terms either. But it's it's a sign that enough folk have heard about veganism and animal rights now that they're feeling a need to lash back against it and in in that there are, you know, whether or not you believe in
00:46:13
Speaker
astrology, the fact is that there aren't enough folk who feel that that's a credible enough threat to the status quo to to start you know firing back significant shots against astrology. I don't think enough people think it's a ah credible enough thing. And and maybe 20, 30 years ago, veganism would have fallen into that camp. It's like, well, there are a few people that live their life that way, but it doesn't It doesn't affect me, whereas now it's starting to. So we're seeing the backlash. So i I think this is a good sign, isn't it? Yeah, because I think veganism made so many strides when you had like Beyond Meat and you had Impossible and you had all these restaurants that opened up and and it became so, I mean, trendy.
00:46:59
Speaker
So then there was the backlash well against it, which is now, but then hopefully we come out from that and we make strides again. yeah so i think it'll be interesting to see where it goes in the next few years.
00:47:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So to to finish off then, Shane, if you can imagine somebody ah listening to this now who is just turned vegan or considering it, what what would you say to that person?
Advice for New Vegans
00:47:26
Speaker
I would just say that you shouldn't let – what is the saying? um Shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Is that the saying? Because everybody, I think, feels like they have to do this and they – nobody feels like they have to do this Everybody who decides to go vegan, think, has a little bit of a feeling like, I have to do this right. I can't mess up. Oh, no I ate the wrong thing. Or, oh, no, I was in a situation where I had to eat something that wasn't vegan.
00:47:56
Speaker
And I would just say, that you know, get past that. It's okay. Just keep going. If those are your beliefs, that keep going. There was a situation, this was just last year, where my daughter and a friend of hers had been auditioning at their school for the all-school musical. They go to performing arts school and they neither are in theater. And so this was a three day audition after school, like two to three hours a day. And they had to do like singing, dancing, acting. So it was a big deal. They're in ninth grade. So they probably weren't going to get into this play, but they really wanted to try. And so at the end of that three day thing, they said, hey, um I was picking them up from school and they said, hey, can we go out to eat?
00:48:36
Speaker
And they wanted to go to this place called Sweet Paris, which is a crepe place. They have sweet and savory crepes. I said, sure. They have vegan options there. So I said, sure. The other girl's mom met us there. We go to the counter service. We go, we order. I say, I want the vegan, whatever crepe. It had like portobello mushrooms or something in it.
00:48:53
Speaker
We pay for it. We get our drinks. We sit down. We're all sitting there talking. They're telling us all about how the auditions went and everything. And that ah one of the staff comes up to me and says, um I'm sorry, but we cannot make your vegan crepe.
00:49:07
Speaker
We don't have the vegan batter. And I said, well, I mean, can you just make some vegan batter? And he said, no, we can't. You know, it takes like so many hours and, you know, he couldn't do it.
00:49:17
Speaker
So at that point, I'm looking at them. They're looking at me because am am I going to say at this point, well, I want my money back and I'm not going to eat. So then they're going to sit there and eat and I'm not going to eat and everybody's going to feel really uncomfortable.
00:49:30
Speaker
Or we all have to get our money back and leave and go somewhere else. And this is going to totally ruin the moment where they're telling us all about their audition and everything. So I just was like, okay, we'll just make it with the non-vegan batter. It's fine. Because I just thought to myself,
00:49:46
Speaker
If i make such a big deal out of this, does that really help veganism? No. And so, okay, I'm going to eat a crepe. I mean, the insides were still vegan, but the crepe, I don't know what they make crepes with, ah maybe milk or eggs or something.
00:49:59
Speaker
It has some of that in it. And so, i yeah, i I mean, I ate something that wasn't vegan. i I'm still vegan. I don't think I'm not vegan anymore, but I just had to think about the bigger picture. So I think that if we all just try to keep it in perspective, then you know that makes it easy to keep being vegan and to keep really, like you know, fighting for the animals.
00:50:17
Speaker
Absolutely. And we've we've all got different tolerances of these things and every context is different. And our opinions can change as well, can't we? You know, feel more resourced to be a bit more stubborn nowadays than than i used to. But I mean, listeners to our podcast will know that I'm terribly polite most of the time and just find conflict difficult and and that's an evolving thing isn't it so it's like you say someone that's able to be on this journey for a long time that's perfect or imperfect that's got to be better for animals than than someone who does it as a flash in the pan for two months and then that's it you know yeah
00:51:05
Speaker
I mean, even if it's a situation where you're like, I just want to be vegan, but I cannot give up cheese. Okay, then be vegan except for cheese. You know, what ah as much as you can do do that. And who knows, your your capabilities might change. Yeah.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah, you might be able to get used to, try different cheeses and find one that you really like. And oh, this vegan cheese is great. I like this one. There's so many different kinds. Some of them I don't like. Some of them I do. so Yeah, yeah. It could be suspicious of somebody that says they like every single vegan food. Not sure about that.
00:51:36
Speaker
ah Talk about radical. That sounds radical to me. Shane, I could genuinely go on chatting and and and hearing more about your story and journey for many more hours, but you have things to do, I have things to do. So we'll we'll bring it to an end there, but thank you so much for this amount of time. And I look forward to hearing more snippets as we continue our falafel-y journey together over the over the next few months and years, hopefully.
00:52:02
Speaker
All right, thank you.
00:52:08
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:52:19
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:52:49
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:53:10
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:53:25
Speaker
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