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Daughters of the Cult (Part 1)
141 Plays9 months ago
This week on the Mothers of all Crime we are discussing the first three episodes of the new docu- series "Daughters of the Cult". This show contains interviews with many living relatives and former devotees of a man named Ervil Lebaron. Ervil had at least 13 wives with 50 + children. All of them endured unbelievable traumas at this hands or at his direction. One of Ervil's favorite killing tactics was to order hits on people who threatened his reign of terror (even his own brother). He was known as the Mormon Manson because of his ability to control women into committing murder at his behest. His daughters, Anna and Celia, narrate the tale of Ervil's wife and step daughter killing a rival cult leader. This series offers insight into a secret world with many secrets and conspiracies. Join us as we unpack the first half!
Listener discretion is advised.
May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Mothers of All Crime' and LeBaron Group
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
00:00:43
Speaker
This week on the Mothers of All Crime, we're going to be talking about the daughters of the cult.
00:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, this is a miniseries that came out on Hulu, and I think it's also on Disney Plus now. um five episodes yeah Five episodes of the LeBaron group, which is a polygamous like offset.
Ervil LeBaron's Influence and Group's History
00:01:05
Speaker
And this is the first time that really there's been like a focus on this group because there's not a ton known about them. There's a lot of whispers and a couple big cases. But not a ton about, like, the history and who they are and the actual characters involved. So I thought it was a pretty interesting avenue that they took, particularly having the daughters of Errol Verne. Ooh, that's gonna be hard to say a lot.
00:01:32
Speaker
It's a weird name. It's hard to say. Erville LaBaron is the main guy we're going to be talking about, but his daughters and his wives have huge roles in a lot of the crimes that are associated with this group and with groups that came later.
Doctrine of Blood Atonement
00:01:49
Speaker
um but this i mean I've heard of this group before and I've heard of Erville LeBaron before, but I definitely did not know most of the information that was in this like five part series. And I think that just enough time has passed and all the charges have kind of sorted themselves out. So now people are kind of able to talk about it. no And now they're like all kind of being open with what happened. And it's definitely interesting
00:02:19
Speaker
This group was fucked up. Crazy. Oh, absolutely. And like, for a lot of the polygamous groups, I know we've talked about it before, but the idea of blood atonement, um it is in Mormon doctrine. But this group is really how I learned about it, where like, this was their thing. They fully believed in blood atonement, which basically is your death for God. And the prophet can name people who went against the cult or did something, and they could be blood atoned, which basically means killed in the name of God, which he had so much fun doing.
Formation of Ervil's Sect and Extreme Beliefs
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah, he definitely believed in that very strongly towards the end.
00:03:07
Speaker
um and felt no guilt or remorse in doing those things and asking his wives and children to participate in it. I think that he's like a really good example, Erval, of like a narcissistic cult leader who just was only thinking of himself and how he could keep asserting more power. He was just like a power-hungry lunatic, and he really manipulated everyone around him. And the kids, I mean, so most of the documentary, most of the documentary series is showing a lot of Anna and Celia LeBaron, which are his daughters. I mean, there's other people that are interviewed too, there's stepdaughters, there's nieces, sons.
00:03:51
Speaker
prosecutors cops but I feel like you know Anna and Celia really narrate most of it and and it is interesting to hear them talk about growing up on the run and the FBI doing raids at their houses and they didn't even know why that was happening they were just like they were sheltered, but they also were exposed to terrible things. It's like a weird... It's a weird balance of those two things for sure. So let's talk about a little bit about him before we go into some of the stuff he commanded and puppeteered. So he himself was
00:04:30
Speaker
like you said, very charismatic. He was an amazing public speaker. He just captivated audiences. And he wasn't the original leader. So his brother Joel kind of started an off sect of the Mormon church when polygamy kind of became look down upon, called the church of the firstborn of the fullness of time, which is a mouthful. um But basically their main thing was we're going to continue living polygamy because that is what they believed was the but truest way and the best way to get to the highest level of heaven. Orville was Joel's brother.
00:05:11
Speaker
Right. so And right hand man. Absolutely. And Joel seemed very, from like what people talk, very laid back, very calm, kind of was, I don't want to say a passive leader. He definitely led strongly. um But he was looked at the one who was going to save the world while Erville was the one going out and preaching to people. And He was preaching to people, bringing people into the community. He was helping build up their kingdom while Joel was leading about a thousand people.
Manipulation and Crimes in God's Name
00:05:49
Speaker
However, I think Erbil started to get a little jealous of that and started slowly using church funds. He always seemed to have money and never worked. And then all of a sudden he decided he was going to have revelations himself.
00:06:07
Speaker
which I think was the first sign of, I'm going to take over. Right. So God was speaking to him directly. So it prompted him to start his own sect of this group. Like he left Joel's group and started his own, which was the Church of the Firstborn of the Lamb of God, which also, it's too long. What a mouthful. Yeah, I feel like I have a lot of criticisms, but mostly it's just like the lack of creativity. Right. It's too long. And it's hard to say, so. Yeah, like you can't just like stand out. It was never gonna catch on. Right, exactly.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah, so he took about 125 or so of the congregation with him and his preachings of basically hellfire and world coming crashing down so they had to do all this stuff so that they would be saved. um And at this point is when he kind of started reintroducing the law of blood atonement and taking some of life and their blood had to hit the ground to atone for their sins in the name of God. He became very adamant about this and that coupled with putting people into like military drills, children, women, men, it didn't matter.
00:07:27
Speaker
you are going to serve God, which I kind of like, but kind of hate. Like, my initial thoughts watching it was for the first time, most religions are very segregated, where the women are kind of second class. And here, he kind of equalized everyone, like, doesn't matter what your gender is, I still expect you to follow all these rules and do as you're told, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't wasting his resources. He realized that he could double his army if he also had female soldiers because they were there already. so And he needed a lot of foot soldiers putting in the work for him because he didn't like to get his own hands dirty as much as he liked to sit back and command others to go for and hurt hurt others in his name and blood atone for him.
Murder of Rulon Allred and Ervil's Strategy
00:08:23
Speaker
So you need a lot of need a lot of hands for that.
00:08:26
Speaker
That's true. just didn't want to limit sold Right. That's a good point. That's a very good point. um But he created a completely self sustaining community. Like they were completely isolated too. So he was really the only voice that they were hearing. And I don't care who you are, if you are the only, if you only hear one thing from one person consistently, you have no other voices around you, you're going to kind of start to believe no matter what he says. So I can see how the brainwashing started and very tactical.
00:09:00
Speaker
Definitely. I mean, it's it completely infiltrates every single aspect of your life when you're in a extremely strict cult like this. So they they don't have other influences. And even in your own family, like the prophet is still the head. He's still above the husband above the father. yeah is He's the voice of God on earth. It's God and then the prophet. Yeah, absolutely. And you speak to God through the prophet. So if if someone is saying that they are your only path to heaven, to salvation, to communication with God, it's it's pretty appealing. It makes it really easy to manipulate people, especially children. If you have the opportunity to manipulate them since childhood, since birth, yeah like you're going to believe it.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah. And speaking of childhood, ah he also, when he made his own separate group, started the underage brides. So this is when he started, it there's rumors and people claim that he also sexually molested a lot of girls, but he did start marrying children basically. like And he would steal other people's wives because him as the head of the church could locate whose marriage or they were just to the wrong people. So he had to separate you and had a revelation that you were supposed to actually be married to him. So he kept building up and ended up with, I think they said 14 wives and over 50 kids, but they don't know how many kids exactly.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, it was interesting. Some of the kids said 51, some said 52, some were saying 55. When you look online, a lot of things say 13 wives and 50 plus kids. I have seen some sites that have said 14 wives, but I'm not sure. I guess you just kind of lose count at a certain point. yeah and i is too He definitely probably had like secret wives and like oh true and wives that like because they were all separated between Mexico and the United States and scattered about. So one of the daughters in the documentary didn't even meet her dad until she was old like, how old was she eight?
00:11:18
Speaker
It kind of makes sense though like you're he literally he cannot be involved with everybody. Right. So I believe he honestly it wouldn't surprise me if he had even more wives than that. And people just don't know and they just haven't come forward. Because I don't know if I would want to claim that to be my husband either. That's true. It's not like there's any paperwork because these are all just spiritual unions. So he could just declare you married to him.
Investigation Challenges and Limited Convictions
00:11:45
Speaker
Like you wouldn't even have to go through anyone else or any other channel. he could just decide. True. And I think he could also probably just declare himself divorced whenever he wanted to. I think I'm gonna marry Susie today. But if it doesn't work out, you know, I can just declare divorce. Yeah. It's very Michael Scott, like I declare bankruptcy.
00:12:09
Speaker
yeah
00:12:12
Speaker
But for him, it actually works because he created his own society where he controls all of the rules. So he is able to just say whatever he wants, and everyone has to fall in line. And if he says, that's my wife, then that's who it is. Yeah. but Mostly 13 wives, though. Mostly. Yeah. So obviously, he's a little crazy. I think we've all established that. um And he really didn't like threats and he truly believed. And I don't care like what source it is, you constantly see he genuinely believed what he was talking about. I think he definitely was motivated by power and greed. But I think he truly believed he was the true prophet of God like I really do.
00:12:59
Speaker
Sure. I think it was my best guess is that he has some sort of like narcissistic personality disorder. and and delusions of grandeur. He definitely was very mentally ill, probably inbred. And he just had insane delusions of grandeur. He could probably literally hear God talking to him because he may have been hallucinating. And he was just very mentally unwell. And I do think that makes it more convincing to listen to him because it's not fake. Because he believes it. Oh, absolutely. I agree.
00:13:32
Speaker
So with that in mind, he pretty much decided he's going to slowly and methodically eliminate anyone who threatens him or who also claims to be some kind of prophet to God, which includes number one, his brother. Right. Cause they're the only one. Target number one. whom And I think this is where it kind of starts showing the equality that he looks at where He called for a blood atonement on his brother. And in the middle of the night, the they went out, his followers, and open fired on this community and killed two and injured 19 people just because he said so. It's horrifying. It's horrifying. This is one of the more violent cult things I've ever watched.
00:14:30
Speaker
and Violent but casual because they talk about it. Yeah, they talk about it like it was just another day. They got in a car, they went and shot people, watching people run for their lives and just pick them off and drove away in the middle of the night. Well, they could justify it, I guess. Because in the name of God, absolutely. Right. Yeah. ah so Obviously, with that, but the police were not thrilled. um
00:15:02
Speaker
and what This is where, again, the confirmation that he truly believed this. he When the police started kind of started investigating, he, what got the police literally, he looked at them and was like, no, you should drop those. Just demanded the police now to drop charges. And obviously he was arrested, but the audacity of just being like, you shouldn't do that because I said so. Well, I mean, you say he couldn't do that or they couldn't do that, but isn't that, I mean, not exactly what ends up happening. I know.
00:15:40
Speaker
but he He does manage to weasel his way out of consequences for this one, which is unbelievable. yeah he was He ordered an execution for his brother. Everyone knew that he did it. It was... Bragging about it. Bragging about it. It was public knowledge. He was tried and convicted, and then his conviction was overturned, and most people think it was a bribe. Yeah, and he he was sentenced to 12 years, served one. And then, oh, personally, I have to agree with them. There's no way that all of a sudden this little technicality, I mean, I guess maybe, because if we look at Warren Jeffs, he had that super small technicality and the same thing happened. Like,
00:16:24
Speaker
But it just, to his people, was the confirmation that, wow, he is the true prophet. Look, God got him out because he shouldn't be there and everything he's doing is right. like It really reinforced what he was telling his people. That's a good point. it It's proof. and It's like, see, I'm, I'm infallible. I'm above all of these consequences, clearly. So it provided a good, a good new material for him. And it didn't really slow him down much.
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah. And what I also thought was interesting is while he was in jail during this time, his wife, his legal wife, um was coming, bringing him snacks and food. They were having conjugal visits during this time. Like he definitely got some kind of special treatment. Like how many people in jail for less than a year are getting all of these extra things. So I think he probably used that too. Yeah, you could probably buy your way into a better experience in jail also a lot of the time. like If you're able to grease some wheels, throw some bribes, people's way. like i Particularly in like that region for sure. right because yeah Right, because he was in Mexico, so I don't have no idea really what the prisons in Mexico are like, but I feel like everyone's pretty susceptible.
00:17:46
Speaker
Oh, way better. Absolutely. For sure. I mean, I think that's true here as well. That, I mean, not all the time, people have scruples, not everyone can be bought. But I think if you try to bribe enough people, you'll find someone that you can bribe in most situations.
Arrest and Continued Influence from Prison
00:18:01
Speaker
And he was good at that. Yeah, absolutely. So from here, this is where he really kind of leans on the women of his cult for victim number two. So victim number two, um or? Was that Berlin? Rulon. Oh, Rulon. Okay. Because he did want to kill Berlin, but he didn't actually kill Berlin. Yes. So the reason you're thinking it is in order to get to Berlin, he had to take out Rulon first. Berlin was the ultimate goal. Okay. All right. That makes sense.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, because Rulon, this was in Salt Lake City, and he was the prophet, but Verlind was the one with the power. So like his mind, from my understanding, if he got ah rid of Verlind, Rulon didn't really matter, but he couldn't find Verlind. And the only way to pull Verlind out was to kill Rulind, because Verlind would go to the funeral out of obligation, and then he would take out Verlind there. So that yeah head was like a two step plan. Right. Extremely calculated because they did raid the town that or the compound, I guess that they thought Berlin was in, Erville's followers, raided it, attacked people, people were killed, the town was destroyed, but Berlin wasn't actually there. yeah So that was sort of Big waste of time. And it's because Rule 1 of Berlin had such a large following, particularly in comparison. I think it was
00:19:37
Speaker
internally, I think it was a jealousy where look at all these people following him, if I get rid of them, they'll follow me because they'll see me as the true God. And in my theory, even if he did successfully get rid of both of them, I don't think that's how that works. I don't think they're gonna look at you and be like, you killed our prophet, let me go follow you, you crazy man. I feel like that would be like, one of his sons would come up and be like, absolutely not. I am the next person in line. now what are you gonna do, kill out all my bloodline? Like, I don't know what his mindset was at all. Yeah. And it didn't work the first time because when he killed Joel, he thought that he was gonna get all of Joel's followers. But instead, the church was handed down to Berlin. So they're intentionally not handing it down to you, Erval, because you're killing everybody.
00:20:27
Speaker
right But he was just like obsessed with getting rid of his competition and the rivals and the space. So i mean anyone that he viewed his competition was in very, very serious serious danger. Absolutely. So this is where Rina and Ramona come in, who are one the stepdaughter and wife of Berlin, right not Berlin. And then, no, of Erval. Erval's 13th wife was Rina Chinoweth? What did I say? Chinoweth? So Rina is his 13th wife, and then he has a stepdaughter, Ramona.
00:21:08
Speaker
yeah yeah um And he gave them the mission of blood atonement against Ruong. So again, these women kind of went into like a military order brain like viewpoint, I guess. Because it's very impressive what they did. So not good, but im impressive. So these two women
00:21:39
Speaker
put on bulky clothes, wigs, sunglasses, and drove up to Rulon's office, walked in, very calm, cool, collected. They were just another person walking into the office, open fired. Rina was the only person who took shots, shot him, and then casually walked out.
00:22:06
Speaker
And then didn't think she'd know if he was dead. Yeah. She was worried when he wasn't dead. Which I could see because if they went back and he lived, hell would break loose on them. Like you failed, so I'm going to blood tone you for failing your mission. Right. It was life or death for them as well. So she went back in, shot him in the face, which you're not coming back from. and then left and disappeared. Both of them just disappeared in the night.
00:22:40
Speaker
right
00:22:42
Speaker
Which I feel awful for the people in that office. he but Terrifying. Terrifying. And I kind of want to read Rina's book, the blood covenant that she wrote after all this, because she's no longer in the cult.
Rina's Trial and Acquittal
00:22:57
Speaker
But she was like, they were eventually apprehended and tried for the murders. And Rina was acquitted, which I think is very interesting. It would be very interesting to read that because there's probably more from her point of view that never, because she wasn't in this documentary, which I think is interesting, that, yeah, they either didn't ask her or she refused. Like, and you are they their shoes she's a big part of this. I'm sure that if she wanted to be in it, they would have been happy to interview her. But maybe like even
00:23:32
Speaker
there are other crimes that she's associated with that she probably shouldn't be talking about. right i was i got I was her lawyer. She probably should be in prison for the rest of her life, and it's just because of like the like the mind control, essentially. that Like, that's why she should have probably been convicted. I don't really feel like she's a danger to society, but I also would be kind of surprised if this is a completely isolated incident and she never did other terrible things for him. um I mean, she was his wife and she was completely under his control.
00:24:11
Speaker
I don't know because we're going to start getting into like the investigation and the trial. She kind of went dark because she was on the run once they, because again, he's pretty smart. He's going to start sending other people to do other things so that you're looking for multiple people. right ah I bet she, this was the only thing because it was such a high ban hunt for her. She probably constantly was moving after that and didn't have any time to do anything else of that extreme. What about before though? Oh, that's true. Before probably. Yeah. All right. So obviously at this time, which we've talked about before, women were looked over.
00:24:58
Speaker
There was no way that this hit was done by women. So police instantly started looking for men. Right. And surprise, surprise, they didn't really find anybody. Because the shell casings that were all over the office, there were no fingerprints. There was no connection. They couldn't really figure out where to go from there. um fast forward to some more searching, a good Samaritan was dumpster diving, found a grocery bag with a Smith and Weston case in it. They actually called the police. And they were like, we found this, which never happens. yeah I mean, I think that might be like one of the craziest parts of the story that someone was even just looking through a dumpster casually and called the police, I would have definitely just
00:25:57
Speaker
disregarded that. by like garbage Not what I'm looking for. like Yeah, but I guess maybe like it just seems suspicious. And why would someone throw out a shell casing that way? and But I wouldn't have thought really anything of it, I don't think. Yeah. And so they caught a break, um started tracing it all back. And it traced to Nancy Shannoff? shenel I'm so sorry I'm pronouncing the last name wrong. I know. That's the same last name I was trying to say before. Chenoweth? Yeah, I don't know. I was like, I'll give it a shot. Either way. Nancy. Close enough. Yeah. Again, who is related to Erville. And again, reinforced to the police. He's the mastermind. He probably didn't do it, but mastermind. Right.
00:26:52
Speaker
And during this time, the two women completely on the run. They're going from spot to spot spot. Reena changed her name to Patty. And they didn't talk about it. It was one of those things that like the group knew what happened, but nobody talked about it after it happened, which is wild. Yeah, it really is. Definitely. Because you would think he would be like boasting about it or like I don't know because I guess from like a personality point it was very out of character for both of these women that like this would have been done. Ramona was described as like sweet and caring and like just a good mother like it was just one of those like I think it just surprised people that they were the ones that were selected for this task.
00:27:46
Speaker
Sure, which I could see, but I feel like it makes sense for Erville to pick the people who are the most complacent and the most compliant because they're probably going to be the ones that will just follow instructions without bucking back at anything. And that is what happened. You know, where there was some kind of threat, maybe like do this or I'll do this to your child kind of thing to like, I think there's always I think there's always a threat hanging over them. Because even if he's not expressly saying a threat, which he probably was, there's still he has full control of your, like eternal damnation. So you're always being threatened. And your children could be reassigned. You could be kicked out of the community with nothing.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah. And there was a saying in the group where the mothers would teach their children, if you felt bad for yourself, that was the first step to insanity, which directly leads you to the devil. So like, even if they were upset about it, like they can't express that. Because then, okay, then I'm gonna go to hell if I be like, wow, I feel bad for murdering someone. mike Exactly, because you can't doubt him. And you can't doubt the leadership and like the instructions that you're given. And you start to feel bad about those things that were done so righteously, like that's clearly insane. The the devil's got his hand in it. It's it's very toxic.
Isaac's Testimony and Ervil's Conviction
00:29:16
Speaker
Look, it's just such a toxic mentality to raise people in and keep people under such strict control this way. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So as the investigation continues, um, there was a car developed and it was found to be Rena's father. And the registration in the car, they sent it out for analysis, like handwriting analysis, and they matched it to Rena's handwriting. So they now have a woman who they're like, okay, she absolutely was involved, but they had no clue where she was. Because again, he had her moving all over Mexico.
00:29:55
Speaker
so that she can't be found very strategic extremely strategic i agree takes it much harder to find her she's kind of like off the grid and fbi is now involved um this was the most at the time expensive investigation utah had done and i'd be so curious if they compared this investigation to like the Jeffs investigation, like which one, if they're if they're the same level, financially, like manpower, I'd be really curious about that. I feel like it was probably more expensive to do, it's hard to say. I feel like the Warren and Jeff stuff with all of the the trials and appeals was probably more expensive overall. um And also he was on the run for a very long time and all the raids and things that we're doing.
00:30:49
Speaker
oop It's hard to say, but it's also inflation, right? So it was more recent. So everything was more expensive. I mean, Ervo had his share of raids and stuff too, but a lot of them were done in Mexico. And the Jeffs had more people, more people who had like, left the group helping the investigation versus with the Liberans. They were on their own. There was at this point, no one helping them.
00:31:20
Speaker
That is until Dafina, his first wife, and Isaac, one of her sons, actually left the group, went to the police department, and started helping, naming names, talking about what happened, what information they knew about Erville's doings, which is so bold. a total game changer. I feel like with these closed groups, though, you need inside sources. And that yeah you're right, that is what they had with the Jeffs. And they were having people who had left the group inform the FBI of how to handle things and where to look. And until people come forward, it's almost impossible, because you just don't even know what you're dealing with. um So it was super instrumental. Yeah. So
00:32:09
Speaker
We fast forward to fall of 1997. There was a raid down in Mexico, ah where four adults were arrested. One of which was Rina. um Happy accident. ah Because their goal again, was herbal. They actually had him, this is the part that I also think it's just, it A, shows the devotion of his followers and B, just
00:32:39
Speaker
I don't even, like again, reinforcing to the group that he is the prophet, the Mexican vote police arrested him, looked at him, were like, you're not impressive. You're an older guy. There's no way that anybody would follow you and let him go. And another follower was like, it's me. I'm Erval, a man by the name of Dan Jordan. He was like, and they arrested him. And they were like, got him. like what well identity theft you know just uh no i'm the real slim shady you know that's basically what happens right
00:33:20
Speaker
And so obviously, they all went back to jail, they found out they were wrong. And Reed is sitting in the jail cell basically taunting the police be like, you're stupid. but You literally had him and you messed it up. but Like this guy is not charismatic. He's not charming. Not impressed. No one's following him anywhere. And at this point, they had suspected Erville being responsible for nine people at this point. And the all they had was Marina, which is good, but not the goal. um So she was 20 years old at the time of her arrest. She was extradited to the FBI and put on trial for murder and conspiracy to come commit murder.
00:34:14
Speaker
and started her jury trial. Right. Right. But I think before we get to that, we should also note while all this happening, obviously the funeral had happened. So Rulon had his funeral where the goal of Berlin coming out of hiding was going to show up. Right. That blood atonement. Absolutely. The blood atonement was still out there. So he had three men, a bunch of, a car full of automatic rifles, and their job was still the same, blood atonement, moral. They showed up, saw all the police there, chickened out, because they realized. and yeah It would have been crazy. It would have been stupid. It was super suicide suicide a mission.
00:35:13
Speaker
suicide mission yeah right exactly I mean, it was crazy regardless, but that definitely amped it up. How wild is it? Like, we're like, that's what was, that's what was crazy. um I mean, it's all crazy, but it's so crazy that the police were genuinely very concerned about this funeral having like, bit having had previous assassination attempts at these funerals before. Like, that's why they're on the lookout. That's why they're watching. And it's crazy that that's what these people do with their funerals. then They like orchestrate murders and kidnappings and stuff because it's like that's the time that everyone's gonna have to be together. Yeah, and it's, it is kind of how family funerals feel sometimes that you're just like being held hostage with a bunch of people you'd rather maybe not be around. Right. They take it to a real extreme.
00:36:06
Speaker
wound like you know And then I think I wouldn't get out of this funeral. I know. luck Pure And on top of that, Orville was at the funeral. Did he get arrested again? No. but but
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah, he is slippery. He is. But like, here's my other thing is, and you touched on this at the beginning, he never got his own hands dirty. Right. He had ordered these three men to basically have a suicide mission because your lives are worth the blood atonement. But he's probably stood right next to him and did absolutely nothing. He had the opportunity and did nothing. Exactly. Yeah, he like couldn't direct he not that he couldn't he would not directly. I mean, there are times that he was that he apparently killed people in his own hands that he
00:37:05
Speaker
was the direct murderer, which we can get into. But most of the time, it just seems like he was ordering hits. But they were always low level people, which is right not that it's okay to murder anyone. But like, it's not like anyone that he murdered people to like create fear in his own community, but not like the people he wanted dead. Right. Definitely to create fear, like sort of jumping forward a little bit, but like his daughter, Rebecca, who was 17, who was pregnant, he allegedly killed her because she was trying to leave the group. And he did that, I think to exert control in his own family, but also to send a message that this is what happens to people who leave the I mean, to kill a child, your own child, who's pregnant, and is
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, pretty monstrous. Yeah. But and I just wanted to set a tone. Yeah. And I think he did exactly that of creating that fear. But I also think that was the motivation that Delphina needed his first wife to be like, you killed my baby. Like, you you're not getting away with this anymore. Like, you took it too far. And I think that might have been what steered
00:38:24
Speaker
the two of them off to help the bullies personally. I think it did. Yeah, I think it it changed. He thought it wasn't that big of a deal. He thought it was like low hanging fruit, but it actually ended up being something that changed the game entirely for him because now you've motivated your wife to come forward and blow up your spot.
Control and Continued Violence in Prison
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah. So now let's get to Miss Reena's trial. Okay. She tell me aboutna's tribe had a trial by jury. Um, and they had mostly women on this jury, which was definitely a strategic attempt by the defense where they're going to try to connect. Um, Rena is young, pregnant, and their goal was she's a victim. She was manipulated. It's not her fault because she was brainwashed into doing her actions.
00:39:23
Speaker
nothing I found, and again, I wish I had time to read the book, um did she ever deny doing it? They were just trying to deny responsibility.
00:39:37
Speaker
yeah but I think that she, it was just a fact that she had done it. um It was more of why did she do it? Is she responsible for her actions kind of a thing? and And she is a sympathetic character in that context. Oh, 100%. You see this young girl and her, when asked about Rulon, she's like, I'd never heard of him. She didn't know who it was. She was just following orders. Right. Exactly. um But things got a little icky.
00:40:13
Speaker
So jury members started saying that they were feeling like someone was following some of them and there was intimidation going on. It was never confirmed, but considering all the other things that had happened, I fully believe that other members of that group were intimidating these jurors because they wanted her acquitted. Yeah, I think so too. It makes the most sense. Yeah. And they have a history of doing that. Right. They can't bring and bribing. Very often. Yeah, I think that that it would be hard to prove probably, but I do think that that had to have been a factor, that there was some sort of pressure put on the jurors. Because even if you just have one, that can really change everything in the jury box. You only need one to acquit. otherwise
00:41:06
Speaker
Otherwise, like I was saying before, it really doesn't make sense that Rina was acquitted. It makes no sense to me. So I feel like all the facts are there. And she, not only did she shoot him a bunch of times, she had the time to think about it and went back and shot him again. If that's not premeditated, calculated, first degree murder, I don't really know what would be. Yeah. And you only need one to get not guilty. So that yeah jury deliberated for four hours, came back with a not guilty verdict in 1979. And with four people are on trial, Reena, Mark, Victor and Eddie, the four that were arrested, um all got off scot-free. And they claimed it was because they presented Reena as a victim and that was believed and that there were no direct witnesses who testified in the crime.
00:42:07
Speaker
But then which the next breath, someone's like, but you know, don't forget the intimidation. but Yeah. But also, it's sort of weird to me that they're in like an office building with people in it. People saw her do this, and no one testified. I wonder if there was also a lot of pressure put on potential witnesses. Well, you gotta remember that all of these groups, Rubans, Irvals, Jeffs, um They don't trust the police. They don't trust the outside world. So it doesn't surprise me that none of those people were coming forward because they also didn't, they don't trust the police in that they're actually going to do the right thing. So they probably were just relying on the good Samaritans and the evidence that they had. And that was it. So it was pretty easy to paint a picture without anyone else talking about it.
00:43:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that they got a sympathetic jury and painted her as a victim, which I agree she was, but I think it's an atypical verdict for the situation. And I think that I would have more expected her maybe to have been able to appeal later and get less time, but just to be completely acquitted, I think is pretty strange. Yeah. I don't think they also had enough evidence because remember there were no fingerprints. All they really had was the handwriting, the car, and a guess. It's pretty easy to poke holes in that story. I mean, they had the they had the gun casing and they knew who that belonged to, but it's hard to say that that gun casing is 100% linked to Reena because it was Nancy's gun.
00:43:58
Speaker
here and Nancy wasn't there, Nancy didn't do the shooting. So it's just it's obvious that Reena did it, but maybe it was hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. But again, bringing it back to Erbil, very calculated, because he definitely orchestrated this whole thing and probably handed her the gun, put everything together. Very smart on his part. Yeah, definitely. And he usually had like the murders that he ordered, it seemed like they kind of evolved in complexity, but he liked to send multiple people out to commit these crimes because it also makes it harder to say that it's 100% that one person that is responsible.
Ervil's Death and Legacy
00:44:43
Speaker
And like if Rina and Ramona are both there, it's it's hard to say that one completely did it and the other did not. We only know that because of Rina herself confessing to that. and
00:44:56
Speaker
Because otherwise, it's just two people went in, they had a gun, this guy is dead, but who shot him. And he did tricks like that a lot, where it sort of like passes around responsibility. Yeah, and that and the backup. So there was one part in the documentary that they one of the witnesses kind of felt that Ramona hesitated. So it sounds like they both were supposed to shoot him. And it's a good safety mechanism. of If one doesn't, the other will. So just in case, like in this, situation if she did hesitate, the other one took over. So it's a safety net to make sure that it actually happens. Yeah, that's true. That makes sense. I mean, it doubles the odds that someone's going to go through with it if you have two people.
00:45:56
Speaker
So thanks to this acquittal, it had a ripple down effect. And other members of the Liberian group were being released throughout Mexico, the United States, like, because at this point, it was all kind of hoping that with one, they would get another. And once one's gone, they're all gone. I don't think they saw that coming either. Right. Yeah, i i I think that's true. It's all very, it's all very linked together, for sure. It's hard to separate any of these things. But I think that,
00:46:36
Speaker
yeah, I mean, their acquittals were big deals, a lot of people got released. And then are we up to June 1, 1979? I believe so. Yes. That was a big day. It was. Yeah. Erville was finally apprehended by police in Mexico. After a long stint on the run, it kind of all came to an end. And he was being charged with Rulon's death, Rulon Alred. So he was being charged with murder, even though he was not there, but he orchestrated it. um And he was sentenced to life in prison. Did you want to talk about anything with that? Yeah, so I think
00:47:22
Speaker
We've got to mention that Ruan had made the top 10 most wanted list during this time while he was on the run. ervil And, uh, Erval. Yeah. Yeah. My Ruan's dead. All of the names are too similar for me. I know. Well, they're all weird Bible names, not to like offend. but and And also, a lot of them are similar, which makes sense to people in the Jeffs family and other cults that we know about. And it makes sense because they're all being named after the same people. But it is very confusing. It's awful.
00:47:56
Speaker
um And I think what led up to that arrest was he was in a small town in Mexico. It was very public in the town that he was there. ah And I think it was, Jonestown had happened about a year before this. So everyone was kind of on edge of these intense religious fanatic groups who isolate themselves. And I don't think they wanted another one of those in their town. And that's why they ended up raiding his house, basically beating the crap out of him, and then shuffling him over to the border and pass him over to the United States. They were like, hey, girl, we don't want him. Which they could have done years ago and just did it. But Zoe said, I ended up going to trial, went to jail.
00:48:49
Speaker
um He had a public defender, which I also think was kind of strange. I thought that was very strange, because doesn't he have money? Didn't he have money? So this is where I go back and forth, because the group was completely self sustaining. They lived very below the poverty line, their children were working to like repair like, was it appliances and just odd jobs. But earlier on, it was always said that like, the families so had money and their kids had new clothes. And like, I wonder if he just didn't want that government to know he had money, or if he was just so delusional that he generally believed
00:49:40
Speaker
It didn't matter what attorney he had because God would prevail and save him. Well, just like Warren Jeffs, who defended himself, I mean, it's better to have a public defender than do it yourself. I do think there's an element of delusion. I mean, I know everybody was living pretty rough in Mexico, like the families that were on the run. But I kind of always thought that Erville had access to money, similarly to um to Warren Jeffs. Yeah. because he had all of, he he could skim off the top, you know, but maybe he didn't have legal access to that money also. Like it's not being held in banks. Yeah. Yeah. Because they did pay tithing. Right.
00:50:25
Speaker
Exactly. um But when he's talking to police, he was very strategic. He said some wild stuff, including to claim that he was the true president of the United States.
00:50:39
Speaker
um But he never when they would push things about any of the murders, he would just change the topic. like He was very strategic to not incriminate himself on anything.
00:50:54
Speaker
Um, yeah but his downfall. Yeah. Cause technically like, yeah, he was guilty of some stuff, but he also. I think we didn't do it. like I mean, he wasn't even there when Ruon already died. He wasn't there. So he could say, I didn't do that. I mean, he did kill people himself also. right He was not being charged with those things. Yeah. He didn't get charged for like the murders that he did with his own hands. He got charged with ordering a hit, essentially. Yeah. I mean, he was inevitably, they think, responsible for over 30 deaths.
00:51:33
Speaker
And this was just the one that they seemed to have enough evidence, but also I think was one of the more high profiles. So it kind of forced them to take action.
00:51:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he's, he's a serial killer. I think it's just a, a typical case of being a serial killer. You know, it's not what you think of necessarily. But I think that he spent a lot of his time and resources plotting murders and making them be carried out. I think that that is he was getting a lot of satisfaction from it. And I think that this was, I mean, because he definitely killed at least 25 to like 32 people. The numbers sort of vary depending on what you're looking on. But that's still a lot. 25 is a lot. Oh, yeah. But he got nicknamed Mormon, a Mormon Manson, also very hard to say, which I think is kind of funny.
00:52:33
Speaker
I mean, he kind of has Manson like qualities. Yeah, it's he got a bunch of women to do anything that he wanted. Exactly. That would be a good episode also for us to talk about. Yeah, the women behind Manson. Yeah, that those are those are a fun one. um But I think his biggest downfall was his son, Isaac, who then came out again, and actually testified against his father. That's, I think, how they got their conviction. I think so too. Because the jury deliberated for about three hours, came back with a guilty verdict, a first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, specifically for ruling, and was given life in prison. Right. And that was in 1980 in Utah. whom Salt Lake City.
00:53:26
Speaker
And on trend with all extremist polygamists who end up in prison, his revelations started to become more intense, darker, and more deadly. Yes, definitely. um A lot of that's going to come up in our part too, but he started writing things. um He wrote a new Bible, The Book of the New Covenant, which is a slightly better name than... We're going places. Yeah, I do think it was a little bit better, but it was essentially a hit list. I mean, it had a lot of things in it because it was 400 pages, but a significant portion of it was dedicated to his hit list, yes which had over 20 people on it.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah. And his wife, not wife, wives, would come for visitation and then smuggle out these papers. That's how they got him out of jail. And I think one of my personal favorites that he had was that he ordered his followers to come and break him out of a maximum security prison. You know what, it's called manifesting. dream You put it out you put out into the universe what you want. e And if they could have done it, they would have done it. That is true. That's a suicide mission. And I think for sure a lot of them yeah realized that and were like, okay, maybe we've gone too far because he lost followers at that point.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's similar to Warren, where like some people become more fanatical and some people become disillusioned. And I think when he's when he's on the run and he's avoiding prosecution and he's not been held accountable for anything and he's still able to get his prophecies out to the people easily without anyone having to smuggle them out of a prison for him slowly, I think that it's easier to follow him. And once he's in prison for the rest of his life, you have to reckon with Am I still listening to this guy? And he's even getting worse now that he's in there. And these things that I'm reading are nuts. So maybe he belongs in prison. I think a lot of people were leaving the group at that point rightfully so. Oh, yeah. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, he is found dead in his prison cell. Yeah.
00:55:53
Speaker
And he was only in prison for like a year because he got sentenced in 1980. I mean, he did spend like a year in prison, like during like the trial, stuff like that. So he had basically been in prison for two years on August 16th, 1981 from suicide
00:56:13
Speaker
he was found dead in his cell. I don't know though. I don't know. Well, we have a couple options. So he was in his mid fifties and the quarter report says he died of a heart attack. And then we have a lot of it coming out that he, there was a suicide attempt and that's how he died. But then there's other people claiming that it was a hit because all of the muscles in his throat were completely hemorrhaged. I feel like it was most likely a hit and I'm not usually someone who thinks that. I feel like I'm not usually like huge into conspiracy theories but it's the thing Berlin, his brother that he'd been trying to kill for for over a decade at this point died in a car accident two days after herbal.
00:57:08
Speaker
And I just feel like that is such a bizarre coincidence. And I really feel like, and it could have happened. He could have been a heart attack. He could have committed suicide. He could have been murdered in the jail. Like anything could have happened. But the coincidence of them dying within two days of each other, it just seems, I don't know, it seems like too much of a coincidence. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, maybe this is other enemies of your cults coming for you. Or there's all kinds of there's so many possible suspects for their murders that it's almost kind of hard to say. um Because I think this is just how this group operated and how this family operated because that is
00:57:57
Speaker
it's all just family members killing each other that's what this whole thing has been yeah at the end of the day they're really all related they're all related a lot of them are brothers or they're married or they're children or stepdaughter it's it's very close family relations um i mean everyone's at least like a second cousin with each other right when you go out into like the competitive other groups they're all related somehow I just, I know that it's possible that it was a coincidence, and it's possible there's many different things that could have happened with Erbil. A lot of people do think that it was a suicide. um And could have been, I guess. I'm just not really sure. I also don't know if maybe Verlyn was killed as retribution for Erbil being killed by some of his extreme fanatical followers, because he did have some of those still.
00:58:53
Speaker
Right. I mean, that hit was still out on him. So it could have just been them continuing to try. Maybe they just didn't even know that. Yeah. They were like, oh man, we killed him. You would have been so poor for this. We've been trying to pull this stuff off for almost 10 years, and we finally did. And it's like, well, if you're in like rural Mexico in the early 1980s, you probably don't have a cell phone. You probably don't have a computer. Yeah, they may not even know you instead. And they were just carrying out the hit. I mean, it's possible that Berlin died in prison, and that was not a hit, but Berlin's was. It's also possible they were both hits, or that neither of them were.
00:59:41
Speaker
I guess we'll never really know, but I think it's very interesting. I agree. I don't think it was suicide though. I think it was either the heart attack or a hit because he had way too much like being written in public. He was working too hard to like get all this out. for him to like quit. Because like, I'm comparing him to Jeff's. So Jeff's went into his cell and basically had a breakdown of like, I can't survive in here, i I don't know what to do. And like, if that was his mindset, I'd be like, you know what, maybe suicide was an option. He was so firm in his belief and his delusion and his cult, basically.
01:00:25
Speaker
yeah I don't think he would have given that up. Like he wasn't steering away from anything. He still thought I think he was going to get out just like every other time. Yeah, I thought I think he had a lot of hope for getting out. I don't think he really thought he was going to do life imprisonment. Yeah. And I think that if anything, he would have waited until he completed everything that he was writing because it doesn't seem like he was done.
01:00:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I guess he could have had a moment of this is all fake. And I it's all been fake. And this is stupid. And I'm in prison for the rest of my life. And I this isn't like the Mexico prison where I was able to grease some wheels and drive my way out of a situation like it's taking way longer here. It's not working out. He could have had a moment of clarity, essentially. But I don't really think so. Because I think he was very narcissistic and delusional. And I don't think that he would have ever killed himself. Yeah, it's possible no way. But I think those are the only options. Personally, it doesn't really explain like the neck muscle stuff if you're right. Maybe it's both maybe someone tried to kill him wasn't successful. And then like after the fact they were he was like laying in his bed like, ah look at me getting away with it again. And it just died.
01:01:49
Speaker
as possible. Like someone could have come in, attempted to strangle him, not succeeded. And he had a heart attack from the stress of being almost strangled to death. And because that would have been the first time that he would have like had violence against him that we know of. Yeah, that's true. He also could have been like doing drugs in the prison or like did like weird. But that doesn't explain the neck. The neck thing is really the one that makes the question mark, huh? It really does. It really does. It just doesn't, so a hard act doesn't make sense to me. I know. So what are your thoughts on the two women? Do you think that they should have done more about it? Do you think, where are your thoughts on them? Rina and Ramona? Yeah. Do you think that the court should have tried
01:02:42
Speaker
to continue to go after like, because they didn't get Reena, let's go after Ramona kind of vibe, because they didn't really do much for her. I, yeah, I do think that she probably, I think that it's just one of those things though, where the main, the main target was always herbal. And these women were looked at as very low hanging fruit middlemen. not the main target. I don't think it was the priority to take them down. I also think because they were women and they were sympathetic characters, they were worried about getting convictions and it clearly didn't work with Rina even though she probably I do think that she was guilty. um I think that she killed someone. But I also do think that she was under an extreme amount of duress. And if someone's threatening you,
01:03:38
Speaker
threatening your salvation, threatening your physical safety, threatening your children, threatening, I mean, it might not be legally really her fault at that point if someone's forcing you into it, or at least you believe that they are forcing you into it, which I do think she believed that. Yeah. What about you? You think Ramona should have gotten a trial or? um I think if they had found her, they would have. um I think it probably would have been the same result, because you're right, where their end of their goal was to get him at the end of the day. And I think they would have probably given the same case for as they did for Reena, where she's a victim. She was manipulated into it, brainwashed. It's not her fault. I think she would have got the same outcome if they did. I wish they did find her.
01:04:34
Speaker
um I read somewhere that they didn't actually arrest her and she was let out on bail and then jumped bail. But I couldn't find anything to back that up either. This has been an extremely hard topic to research. Also, yeah, there's such limited information. And it I the doc the series wasn't bad, but I found it very confusing to watch. yeah It left you with more questions. Yeah, which is intriguing. But it also made it hard and I also like Anna and Celia they they come up later for sure but they're like the main people in the documentary and they they don't come across as like extremely likable or they don't seem to have like they don't talk about it the way I want them to which makes it harder for me to relate to them
01:05:28
Speaker
but I think that they just are super traumatized from what they went through. And they're just not maybe explaining things 100% perfectly. But it's also, they're not historians telling me about this, um this ancient polygamous cult, like this is their childhood and this is their lived experience. Yeah, so I found them kind of hard to relate to and to follow along with. And there's not a lot of information, but I think that there'll probably be multiple documentaries that come out about this. um There already have been, but I think there'll be even more now that there's just so many family members willing to talk about it. Yeah. And I don't know if I said this at the beginning or if this was a conversation you and I had prior to us recording, where this really was the tip of the iceberg for the Liberans. Like, you would hear every once in a while, like,
01:06:20
Speaker
a book came out or there was like an individual on a podcast talking about like their experience, but there isn't a ton about the group as a whole. But a lot of it is because these people had such more, I don't want to say there, anybody's trauma is insignificant. But this group has so much violence, like just woven through every part of it and abuse and neglect, like you name it, it was here versus other groups. There's a lot of sexual abuse. Yeah, you name it. There's all the types of abuse, every single kind. There's financial abuse, there's physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, education abuse, all kinds of things. Versus other groups only have like one or two or like individuals might not experience all of it, even if it all is present in the group as a whole.
01:07:20
Speaker
So I feel like it's a lot easier to get other people to talk about it. But I think a lot of them just, and a lot of them were involved in criminal things. And the fear of like, if I talk about it, I could get arrested is also probably a there where you have to get to a point in your life where like, you know what, I'm better off talking about it and risking the consequences or being like, I should be held by that consequences. So like this group has a different level of
01:07:49
Speaker
I can't think of the word I want but like concern about sharing there's information versus others. I agree with that and I think that that's what we were talking about before with why Reena is not in the documentary. I don't think there's a benefit for people who maybe should be charged with things um participating. I just think better to leave it well enough alone. I think it takes a lot of courage for any of these family members because this is a very small group, relatively, it's essentially a family. It's a couple different families, but I it's under 200 people. Yeah, like I mean, and they all have this insanely
01:08:35
Speaker
this insanely volatile experience that they're unpacking actively. And they're you could see them in the documentary that they're losing their shit over this. And that's understandable. And they're all getting very upset as they're talking about it. And that's also understandable. it's yeah It is shocking, honestly. um We're going to talk about the four o'clock murders in part two. And I had heard about that. And I had seen something about it in the past, but I i just didn't realize that all of these other things were associated with it. Yeah. Pretty wild. Kind of with all that, you had mentioned all his revelations from pregnant and became a new book, the book of the new covenant. And that book really, of the group that was left, a strong amount of them were his teenage children.
01:09:25
Speaker
which then became the KOG, g the Kingdom of God. And they really just rolled with it and followed this book. And I'm excited to talk about it in part two. Definitely. All right. Any final thoughts? I don't know. I have final thoughts, I think, for the next part. OK. Fair enough. Fair enough. But I just i feel conflicted, I think, because Particularly with Rina, I understand why they acquitted her, but I also wish that there was some kind of accountability. You know what I mean? I do get that. Like a lesser aggravated something. I don't know. Yeah. and For me, the struggle is...
01:10:14
Speaker
that I kind of feel like a prison is what I think it should be used for is to separate someone who is dangerous from society. That's more how I view it, which is not really what it's for. It's more of like a punishment thing. I mean, sometimes it's for people's safety, but it's also a punishment. And I think that maybe she deserved the punishment, but I don't think she's a threat to other people's safety right now. I agree. Yeah, I don't think she would have done it if it wasn't. now Yeah, I don't think she ever would have done it without some motivation oh extreme motivation yeah for sure i agree with that all right well we'll wake up really soon with this and we're off to part two all right see you soon bye