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"Beggars Belief" ACN Pod 107
90 Plays2 years ago
It's beginning to look a lot like Smithmas, not likely to have a corner flag this side of Luton(a) so Connor, Maddie, Tom & Jon reflect on the awful atmosphere and unfortunately how it's likely to get worse, we talk unlikely managerial candidates and try and find a bright side before Crimbo.
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Knowledge podcast where we converse on the chaotic crushing chasm between Quality Canary's football and the crap that this current coaching cabal is creating this Christmas. Connor, Maddie and Connor here for a festive jibber jabber.
Public Pressure on Dean Smith
00:00:36
Speaker
Connor, it felt like a very public turning on Saturday night and you'd be a monster if you didn't feel for Dean Smith in that moment, wouldn't you?
00:00:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's quite hard to put yourself in that position, isn't it? To be someone stood in front of whatever the crowd was because we don't officially know, but thousands and thousands of people.
00:00:55
Speaker
not just chanting for you to be sacked, by the way, but also just completely rejecting your work and your methods and what you do. I mean, in many ways, actually, the second chant about the style of football was worse than the one calling for him to be sacked, in my opinion, because that was just a complete rejection from everyone or the people who engaged in that. I'm sure it wasn't everyone.
00:01:16
Speaker
on the style of play and on what he was trying to do so so yeah there is a very human nature to all of this where you do feel sorry for him as a human being and that for me and i'm sure we'll get into the post-match stuff is what makes the post-match comments a little bit more i don't say understandable but i think there was an emotive quite human response to that because if you're putting someone in a situation where they're going to get stick like
Dean Smith's Response to Criticism
00:01:38
Speaker
that
00:01:38
Speaker
I think you have to expect them to kind of fight their corner a little bit and come out swinging to an extent. Did it help? Probably not. Did it pour petrol on it? Absolutely. But I can understand why he responded in the way that he responded, but particularly for someone who has to sort of listen to Dean Smith speak every week and see Dean Smith in the flesh. He's a perfectly pleasant human being, but that's football, isn't it? That's the nature of it. And he will have known that when he got into it. So, yeah.
00:02:04
Speaker
you would have to be a monster not to feel for him. It's quite sad to be honest that he's got to this point and I feel that actually the longer that it prolongs now, the nastier and probably more personal that it's going to get over the weeks to come.
Fan Narratives and Misconceptions
00:02:17
Speaker
If we pick up on a couple of things particularly that stood out for me in that post-match, well, yeah, just focus on a couple of them because there was so much there but
00:02:27
Speaker
Firstly, the idea that the fans, there's kind of some pre-built narrative. There isn't. There's no kind of fan hub elite panel that sends out these are the tweets and the insta posts and reactions that everyone needs to follow. You're just not on the WhatsApp group, mate.
00:02:46
Speaker
that that was that wouldn't surprise me if i if i found that this is how i found out that oh no there is there is no script and you're not invited but i i can't i can't understand why he's he's clinging to that and what concerns me about him clinging to this whole narrative thing is that that is actually being spoken about in the corridors of colony that is that it isn't just him you know the the club
Club Culture and Fan Perception
00:03:09
Speaker
and the people off the pitch in those positions seem to also think that it's us versus them. And the whole fact that he's looking forward to the next game being away from home. You said Connor is sad that it's got to that point. I personally cannot remember whilst I'm sure Worthington might have felt it and Rhoda might have felt it at times, I can't remember a manager, to be honest, even of another club, ever publicly saying as easy as that, well, yeah, good job we're away, aren't we? Get away from our fans. I mean, Maddie, that feels like something that is
00:03:39
Speaker
completely irreparable. It's what you said about that being the conversation in Colney. I think that's the really key point for me. The fact that he can come out there and say that and so many people said what you said, which is any other manager of a football club would have been gone by now. You can't say these things about the fans of the club and stay in your post, but it
00:03:59
Speaker
speaks to me that that is just the culture that's ingrained in the club now. It is this us versus them siege mentality and initially for a while in that first Premier League season that worked because we were part of the us and not the them but now they've turned and we're part of the noise that they've been desperately trying to ignore for all these years and I just think it's really sad that the manager can come out and say this and none of the higher-ups have a problem with it.
00:04:22
Speaker
that that's just part of the culture and that we are seen as the enemy. We're just seen as paying customers and not fans anymore and that's to me is the antithesis of what Norwich is about. So it's horrible and it's sad from a fan's perspective but it's also just it's not a good business model.
00:04:39
Speaker
I mean, season ticket renewals are in less than a month's time. They didn't even, they released the attendance for Saturday very, very quietly. Are they not scared? Are they not worried that they're alienating the fans this close to season ticket renewal time and there's no panicking in Colne or Carrow Road whatsoever? The whole thing just reeks to me of something deeper going on at the top.
Manager's Conduct and Fan Relations
00:05:00
Speaker
They seem that they must be concerned because the you know, I'm not I've got no vested interest in keeping tabs on how season ticket renewals are going to go. Yeah, I just as a as a casual observer of conversations amongst friendship groups on the few WhatsApp groups I am invited to John.
00:05:19
Speaker
and I'm not allowed in your elite ones, but the sheer number of people who previously have had season teams for several years who are saying, and likewise you see other things on social media as well, I'd rather be a few hundred quid better off next year than sit through this, because it does go further than
00:05:37
Speaker
It's the standard of football, but it's also if, to your point, Maddie, and I don't think I'd seen it articulated that well until you just said that, it's almost the fact that he is the customer facing representative of the off the pitch, right? He's almost like on the tills of the Norwich shop.
00:05:57
Speaker
And if he is allowed to tell customers to fuck off when he gives them the change, you see what I mean? And if the deputy store manager or whatever doesn't come over and says, we'd really rather you didn't say that to customers when they leave the shop, then we get the impression that, all right, so like you say, it's fine then, right? That's fine for him to just be fed up with us and make out like we're the problem. And John, the point I wanted to bring you in on
00:06:24
Speaker
is the thing that really concerned me and I think could do damage beyond, you know, in terms of this season, beyond his tenure, which seems like it's only a matter of days, hopefully hours now, is he would say, yeah, this is the conversation I've just had in there, meaning in there with the players, you know, that actually we need to get a couple of goals ahead to get them off your back.
00:06:44
Speaker
And that is really bad. What we don't want is him intimating to the players that we've got any kind of problem with them, because we don't. Our issue is not with them. As Chris Gorham brilliantly said during that interview, we've seen those players win two titles, a lot of them. We know the ability of the players. The players weren't being booed. The players weren't having people
00:07:06
Speaker
And that has happened at Catarou before. We've had individual players picked on quite clearly with specific boos and specific catcalls. That hasn't happened this season. It has been a deeper malaise as yet another move goes nowhere. I think...
00:07:21
Speaker
you could potentially perceive that there were booze and catcalls at certain times with certain individuals looking to take certain actions, i.e. let's go back to Angus Gunn because there's no option ahead of us because the midfield isn't moving. Let's ping it between Gibson and Hanley because actually there's nothing else, there's no one showing in the midfield and then they'd have to ping it long or whatever.
00:07:46
Speaker
For me, and Connor's talked about it a little bit, that was a rejection of the football and then it was vociferous in the way in which it came through from the bark near the snake pit that people are just deeply unhappy with the style of football that's being played.
00:08:02
Speaker
I think the players are probably canny enough and most of them have been around long enough to know that it isn't them. This is the manager and it's very clearly the manager, all of them. No matter how much they try and tell you that they will try and block out crowd noise, all of them will be absolutely on board with that fact.
00:08:20
Speaker
Well, John Thomasin brought it up in his press conference as well. And I think going back to the way in which fans are talked to and the way in which fans maybe have felt disrespected and disconnected and disengaged, I think the club know it.
Club's Outreach and Performance Issues
00:08:35
Speaker
And I think the club know it because I've certainly seen, you know, as someone who's been part of a long-term Norwich over the last two, three weeks,
00:08:42
Speaker
the dials just started to shift a little bit and they've started to realise that they need fans on board so fan groups were invited up to Colney this week to watch first team training and that was facilitated by senior people within the football club and was generally well received. Fan groups have been invited into Carrow Road and had general discussions around what's going on at the moment. There's been atmosphere meetings. I think the club get it but I think the club
00:09:09
Speaker
aren't putting that out publicly it's almost a change of strategy by stealth because they realize that they need a few more people on board with what they're trying to achieve. The difficulty is that it has gone so far
00:09:24
Speaker
the other way that I don't know how you well I think you can probably get the fan groups and some supporters back on board but only if the football was still kind of average rather than just abject and it was abject on Saturday and it was genuinely dreadful and I you know I know we'll get into the performance properly or maybe we won't because we're all you know we're just sick of talking about it but
00:09:48
Speaker
Dean Smith coming out and kind of suggesting, well, possession stats were better. And, you know, we had 19 shots, eight of which were blocked, by the way, and probably the, you know, the remaining 11 weren't exactly in, you know, kind of dribbled places. Yeah, exactly. They were garbage and, you know, not necessarily like kind of high yield chances. So him coming out with that kind of nonsense, when everyone can see that what was served up on the pitch
00:10:14
Speaker
was pitiful for the first half and the second half a bit better but Blackburn were kind of happy to keep us at arm's length and just protect what they had.
00:10:22
Speaker
everyone can see through this now. Anyone who has any kind of contextual relationship with a football club knows that this only goes one way and it's just a matter of when and not
Social Media and Performance Justification
00:10:35
Speaker
if. And I'm really surprised that the club can't see that because the club look at social media, the club speak to people, the club speak internally to people who work there who are fans of the football club. They will be gauging what the temperature is at the moment
00:10:51
Speaker
And I don't know, maybe they have just become masters of ignoring the noise because it just beggars belief that we have either not had the Stuart Weber coming out and publicly defended him that kind of dreaded vote of no confidence or a corner flag moment yet. Now would have been the perfect opportunity to do it because they had nine days to prepare for Luton and you know, kind of the longer and longer it goes on, the more likely it is that he stays. But yeah, it's a worry.
00:11:22
Speaker
My question, Connor, on him staying is we know they try and be data led. We know they try and use analytics. So I'd be fascinated what you think the argument
00:11:39
Speaker
Dean Smith could make. Now I know there's an obvious one in the shape of the table and you know I think I don't know if Norwich have ever been in a clearer cup half full cup half empty position in their hundred odd years of existence in that we are
00:11:58
Speaker
in the playoffs we are two results and some other help away from being in the top two but we're closer to the bottom three do you know what i mean like you can you can really easily choose which way you read that um and yes of course we'd rather be only you know four or five off the top than than down the bottom but i can't believe that stewart-weber
00:12:22
Speaker
with all of his expertise in football, I can't believe he is buying the same bullshit that Smith is trying to get away with, with you lads in the post-match interviews around second most shots in the league, third most, because Stuart Webber will just go, I've watched the game mate. We never looked like scoring.
00:12:42
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the thing with data, right? For as much as you can look at the numbers and crunch the numbers or even twist the numbers at points, everyone's got two eyes and everyone sees it, so you have to connect the two. For as much as you can't just go by an eye test, you can't just go by a data test either. You have to combine the two and meet somewhere in the middle. The shot statistic I find absolutely laughable, if I'm honest, because it's so
00:13:06
Speaker
out of context, it's untrue. And he knows it is because if you take 40 shots from 40 yards, well, you still had 40 shots, but actually you dig a bit deeper into it and it'll tell you the shots aren't from good areas and they aren't of a good quality. So again, it's just completely meaningless. Possession and another one, it's this age-old thing, isn't it? You can have the ball, but it's about what you do with it fine. But also you have to recognise particularly on Saturday, a lot of it was game state because Blackburn scored early.
00:13:32
Speaker
and then it was about them letting Norwich have the ball and pressing them really well and they were comfortable doing that in the same way that Norwich gave Swansea possession the week before so I find this really sort of, oh we dominated the game against Blackburn but we didn't against Swansea, or we did in a different way against Swansea, quite bizarre because actually
00:13:51
Speaker
Blackburn kind of did what Norwich did at Swansea, but did it better? So you can twist it. And in terms of your question, and worth saying, I don't think there will be a change at this stage. It's certainly not what the, you can, you get a sense of things. It's the sense that, that I get at this moment in time for whatever reason. I think the league table is a big part of that. They've not been out of the top six for a while. I think that's, that's probably another factor.
00:14:16
Speaker
Again rightly or wrongly, but but there is this sense and I think if you've been to an orange game or you've watched Norwich regularly That actually you find yourself looking behind you an awful lot And I think whenever you start unless you're at the top of the league obviously unless you start doing that You're in you're in you're in trouble and particularly the nature of the championship is if this continues Norwich might be at fifth now But they're not going to be in a month's time or in a couple of weeks and so all of this I find very bizarre because there's a an odd sense of
Leadership and Direction Concerns
00:14:45
Speaker
loyalty and of putting eggs in baskets that maybe the last 13 months haven't really warranted. And you can understand it a bit more if it's Daniel Farkas say, because there's a little bit of credit in the bank. If we're brutally honest, there's no credit in the bank here. Norwich are in the top six because of a running form that was fueled largely by Josh Sargent scoring goals. Beyond that, it's been under performance for a lot of this season. And even during that winning run, I think a lot of us were acknowledging that.
00:15:14
Speaker
No, I don't get it. I don't understand it. I think Middlesbrough was probably the time where a lot of people looked at it and thought it should be now. And I think Saturday was probably the realization that it needed to be now. And yet I don't get the sense that we're there yet. And that I feel is completely baffling. And ultimately the longer it goes on, because it will get to that stage where it happens and John said it and he's quite right. When a manager gets to this stage, there is no way back. It's kind of the horse trading in between it kind of happening.
00:15:44
Speaker
what you will see is actually the deflection and the criticism gets turned to other people inside the club. And I think when that starts to happen, the tendencies dwindle and season ticket renewals, as Maddie mentioned, being on the horizon as well, that is a real kind of fatal mix. And I think eventually that will force them into a decision. But in terms of pure fixtures and pure calendar,
00:16:08
Speaker
Because of how condensed the next month is, this was the week to do it. And I don't feel that it's coming. And just my final point, we're going to be in a very bizarre situation where, on Friday, Dean Smith, as seen stand, is going to sit down for a press conference having to answer questions about last Saturday with absolutely no word said by anyone else in between. Whether it's a vote of confidence, whether it's a decision being made, that, to me, feels utterly bizarre and, to be honest, quite unsustainable.
00:16:35
Speaker
Well also, nothing is said by anyone else about almost anything else. Nothing from the players. They didn't do their usual, sorry we didn't get the result. Thanks for support. This is usually a smattering of that and some post-match pictures of themselves looking handsome. The club haven't done any of their community kind of stuff. As I've seen, there's been one social post.
00:17:00
Speaker
from the club literally since Saturday night's result. And then I think there was even something about the Duncan Forbes placard that was put up by the science company that did it. But that wasn't reposted or kind of shared or anything by the Canary's official Twitter that I saw. And that is abnormal. They are usually pretty prolific. So especially at this time of year. So why are they not pushing
00:17:29
Speaker
they're not saying we've got offers on in our club shop, we buy a shirt for Christmas. This is a key e-commerce and retail time of year, yet we're not seeing the normal kind of messaging in the lead run-up to Christmas we would typically see from the club around trying to sell cups with owner Hernandez's head on or whatever. That's typically what you see this time of year and it's silent because they know that every single thing they put out there is going to be meted with corner flag please admin.
00:17:54
Speaker
So Maddie, I'm going to give you the task of picking our new manager. I think all four of us on the call know that there's going to be a change. I've had a look at the runners and riders and to me it seems very clear that the top three candidates are O'Neill, Wilder and Knudsen.
00:18:18
Speaker
Which of those three are we going to have? Where have you pulled those from? What the fuck? I looked at a list of all of the available candidates, all the managers who are out of work, and I think of those that would be willing to come to a championship team, they're the three that I think would be the shortest odds, based on the fact that they're the shortest odds to get another job soonest of the ones that would answer. Jeez, Conenson's in a job at the moment, though, isn't he? Did you say O'Neal? Which O'Neal is it? Gary.
00:18:45
Speaker
I thought you met. I've got Martin on my brain. Do you want to plug your interview, Conor? No more than he wants to plug his book. I will plug it. I really enjoyed that. That was fantastic. And some really nice memory stuff in there. And I thought it was really nice that people like Darren Edie and others who were kind of referenced were able to say, you know, kind of boost that for you. And it clearly seemed to give them a lift to be back in the spotlight. It was a lovely piece of work.
00:19:13
Speaker
But enough of that. For anyone who hasn't listened to it though, and if you are going to go and listen to it, and I do recommend it, just as a little game that you can play as you go along, just count how many times Martin O'Neill says, really terrific. Because he really, really likes saying really terrific. Fantastic. So Maddie, you don't think it's O'Neill, Wilder or Knudsen then?
00:19:33
Speaker
So, Gary Anil, who's still in a job with Premier League Bournemouth, and who got the vote of confidence after being caretaker manager, and then said, you'd be permanent, that's fine. I'm taking the odds off the internet, Maddie. I say this with love, Tom, but that's nonsense. That's a no-go. Why would he want to change even the slimmest odds of Premier League survival for whatever the fuck is going on at Norwich at the moment? You just wouldn't. You wouldn't.
00:19:54
Speaker
and we don't even so even if you would even if we could tempt you saying oh there you go this is your rebuild project we haven't got the money to tempt anyone at the moment we haven't got the money to paint Dean Smith off let alone bring in any good manager so Chris Wilder we were having this discussion in the along-come-right WhatsApp that you're not part of Parsley the other day um and I just think there's too much bad blood there with supporters and I know that there is a section of the fan base you'd say oh get over that because it'll just be great but
00:20:21
Speaker
He did so much to try and antagonise Norwich, and there is still that weird rivalry between Sheffield United that we don't seem to care about, but they seem to think it's the biggest game of their season. Sorry, Sheffield United fans who might catch on to this. And then there's Knutson, who's still in a job, and who seems perfectly content in his job, and again, probably couldn't be tempted to come over here where we've got no long-term direction and no signs of a project. I'm thinking about the other names I've seen thrown out there. Someone mentioned Scott Parker the other day, which
00:20:50
Speaker
again I think would be a strange brand of football to get used to but he does have the experience of getting promoted and then some time in the Premier League obviously there's your mate Ross who people are interested in and gravitating towards but I'm not sure if he'd take it I mean you know better than I but I don't know if he'd want to leave Swansea again for the the absolute
00:21:11
Speaker
dump truck mess that is Norwich. It's just we're just not an attractive prospect and we keep having this conversation of who comes in if he goes and I genuinely don't know. It almost seems that the owners you know people say oh you can't call for him to be sacked unless you have a replacement. Why not? That's exactly
00:21:26
Speaker
what we did with Daniel Farka. We got him sacked and then they picked up a manager who got sacked the day afterwards. There is no long-term plan. There's not even the illusion of a long-term plan. We have no idea what's going on because the club have no idea what's going on. So we can throw out these names as much as we like but I don't think it would be anybody that we would mention. I think after what's gone on with Dean Smith they would go slightly more left field and they're just going to have the difficulty of trying to get someone to come in in the first place.
00:21:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, the odds I was basing it on was the next Bournemouth manager before O'Neill was made permanent because that was the closest thing I could find in terms of who's available and also... So you were pulling it out of your arse basically? Yeah, of course it was.
00:22:11
Speaker
Which is a nice preview to the quiz coming later. John, speaking of putting things out of your arse, which name is it going to be and do you think maybe the fact that it is so difficult to come up with one?
00:22:24
Speaker
is why it hasn't happened this week maybe there were a couple of you know sneaky sneaky phone calls that took place and the answer was nah mate you're in a mess i'm not coming and so that's why he hasn't moved because there isn't an easy there isn't an easy answer to who to bring in i mean i think it's tricky right so stuart weber
00:22:41
Speaker
picks Daniel Farker, before that, Wagner at Huddersfield, he had a track record of picking left field, successful, good coaches.
Stuart Weber's Vision for Norwich
00:22:56
Speaker
And I think he had taken, Weber had taken Norwich far enough and thought,
00:23:02
Speaker
Daniel Varka style of football isn't going to be fit for purpose in the Premier League, and we need to do something different to achieve what ultimately he wanted to achieve, which was a legacy of Norwich in the Premier League, brand new city stand, stadium upgraded, you know, kind of beyond belief. Colney, you know, with ridiculous facilities, which would see us, you know, kind of
00:23:25
Speaker
as a real beacon of, well, a place that players want to come and play and train. And then Weber would then just swan off into the sunset and that would be his legacy. And thank you very much. I'm brilliant. I'm either going to go and work in Formula One or be sporting director for Chelsea or whatever. That plan hasn't worked out because of the head coach that he subsequently picked, who was Dean Smith.
00:23:51
Speaker
And I think he picked Dean Smith and all the noises at the football club.
00:23:56
Speaker
suggest this as well because he wanted Norwich to start acting a bit more like a Premier League football club and I mean that as a conventional Premier League football club and I think this experiment has proved that that isn't going to work and maybe we do need to go back to something which is a bit more left field which identifies a bit more with Norwich City and I look at someone like Brentford with Thomas Frank and
00:24:21
Speaker
They've been really successful. Their success is undeniable. Their financial model, whilst their owners are slightly, well, a lot better off than ours. They haven't spent oodles and oodles of cash to achieve what they're achieving. So I personally think that Webber still has that Rolodex of coaches and managers out there that he thinks might be useful for us.
00:24:48
Speaker
and it's whether he still wants to continue along the track of right we need to behave like a normal Premier League football club that finishes between 12th and 17th every year or whether people at the football club think no we need to go back to doing what Norrie City do really well and I still think Knudsen could could be a really good appointment I think the lure of potential Premier League football and it not being that far away might be enough for him and look I think this is
Head Coach Impact on Club Culture
00:25:19
Speaker
A lot of people suggest that the malaise and the difficulties of the football club are wider than Dean Smith and I agree with that but the culture and the tone is so often set by the head coach and it definitely was under Daniel Farka and if we got it right, I'm not saying that everything would be fixed and everything would be wonderful.
00:25:37
Speaker
but it could be a damn sight better than it is now and you're not telling me right that this is the players because it isn't we've seen these players perform we've seen these players perform individually we've seen perform collectively.
00:25:52
Speaker
A decent, well, I still think Dean Smith might be a decent coach, you know, kind of in with a bit of time and a rest. But a really motivated, decent coach coming into North City Football Club at the moment, I really think could have that kind of Alex, Neil, you know, kind of turnaround, the trajectory completely changes. And look, I think autos are beyond us now. But if we go into the top six at the end of the season with any kind of momentum,
00:26:21
Speaker
then that would be brilliant. If it carries on as is, and the excuse, and it is an excuse from the football club, is something along the lines of, oh, well, we're fifth, just don't buy it. And there's two reasons behind that. Yes, we're fifth, but we've got 35 points over 23 games. So we're at the halfway stage right now. You aggregate that over 46 games.
00:26:43
Speaker
We end up on 70 points. There are very few championship campaigns where you will end up in the top six off the back of that. So that is a worry. Teams will get their act together and teams will overtake us. But also our stated ambition was automatics. You know, Smith was clear about that. Everyone at the football club was clear about that. We're, I don't know what it is, 11 points off Burnley. We're nine off Sheffield United. We're so far off it. It's ridiculous. So
00:27:09
Speaker
Look, I think it can be turned around. I think a head coach like Knutson or a left-field pick as Maddy said, maybe someone who's up and coming from not necessarily a glamorous league is probably what fits and chimes with Norwich fans and we could all get behind now.
00:27:25
Speaker
I don't see I, I, I don't agree at all that we're Mars off auto and automatic points, mate. Yeah. And there's, there's what 23 games left. That's nothing at all. Nothing at all to make up. If you've got a new manager with some, it's been done hundreds of times, you know, and there are people, there are probably people behind us who, who there's probably a team behind us that may well end up in the autos and then come out again between now and the end of the season.
00:27:53
Speaker
having seen Burnley, they do look like they've got their shit together with a good manager and a good start of football and they know where they're at and injuries aside, you'd expect them to be one or
Championship League Competitiveness
00:28:01
Speaker
two. Sheffield United, I'm not sure that they are a runaway candidate to gather so much momentum. There's a couple of other teams that may well be in and around it, but I think the fact that
00:28:18
Speaker
Again, we don't think it's happening now, but if you did, World Cup was the time to do it, we all said that, but then even now would be the time to do it before noon. You've still got half the season to generate points, momentum, and even if you end up finishing in the playoffs, but you finish in the playoffs after
00:28:37
Speaker
winning more than you've lost and playing some football that the crowd enjoys and momentum and you then miss the playoffs, you end the season. If we fail in the playoffs under Smith, it will be toxic and I cannot believe you'll still be there then. But if we were to fail in the playoffs under Smith, it would be an awful kind of validation of how terrible everything has been. If we fail in the playoffs under a manager who has swept everyone up along with him,
00:29:04
Speaker
Whilst that would be really disappointing and we've got exactly the same financial headaches and problems of staying down that we would have if we don't under smith, I just think that the season ticket renewals and the kind of momentum going into the second championship campaign and kind of where we have to use the parachute payment as a kind of life support rather than to reinvest,
00:29:26
Speaker
and that we almost feel like the club are going to need the fans to have that momentum because we're going to have to cut our cloth in terms of playing stuff. So yeah, I, I think that I get what you're saying. It does. It feels at the moment like we are, we are adrift, but, but we're, we're really not three games, three games, 23.
00:29:47
Speaker
Well, okay. So say, for example, we play them both again as well. Okay. But say, for example, for second, you need like minimum 85 points. I think that's what Norwich went up with under Lamba. That's 50 more points. We're going to have to go at better than two points per game to do that. I just, I don't think we've got that in us.
00:30:05
Speaker
I think on a fair run, we could go two points a game and we could go close. I just don't think we've got enough momentum. And especially because we're all accepting of the fact now that this is probably going to limp on for another three or four games. And I saw Adam Brandon post on Twitter a while ago about, I think it's Burnley at home is what kind of towards the end of January and it'll be a
00:30:28
Speaker
interest in parallel with when Gary Docherty kind of rugby tackled the guy Burnley at home for Worthington to get the sack and we lost 3-1-4 on something like that. I think you know we might even be looking at it being strung along for that long.
00:30:41
Speaker
Well, so the difference I think we've got in this season is if you look at last season, so last season, you needed 75 points to finish sixth. But I think you also needed 88 to come second. Although actually, having said that, third was 82. But the point is that the Fullerton and Bournemouth were real standout candidates last year.
00:31:11
Speaker
Now with this year, I don't think the points tally will be as high to finish in the top six. And I don't think it will be as high to finish second because I just don't think that the quality is very well distributed at all in the kind of top 12 teams, which is why you've got this. I mean, I can't remember the championship being so crazy that
00:31:34
Speaker
you know in three three or four results time we could be bottom and we're currently fifth I mean even by the championship standards that is a very sandwiched together league at the moment I really don't think there is great quality in there so that's what makes me so frustrated that um everything is pointing towards making that change Connor have you got any um any any names that you've had mentioned to you or that you think could potentially be a um one to watch if if they ever did bring out the corner flag graphic
00:32:05
Speaker
No, no, because I don't ever really, I've never really had the sense this season that is something that has even entered their minds. Of course, whether that's changed since the weekend or not is probably up to debate. I think it's probably, you get senses a lot when you do what I do and people may be hinting at stuff rather than saying it outright. And I think the hints are that there's probably been a few more chips than there have been in recent weeks in terms of like dents
00:32:34
Speaker
in that thinking, but I don't think it's ever really been up for debate, so no on kind of that regard. And it was even suggested to me at one point, and this was sort of during the first wobble in September or October, maybe not that time, but whenever the first wobble was that it wouldn't be under consideration this season. So again, whether that has changed or not in that time is different. I think obviously they probably won't anticipate in Carrow to turn in the manner that it has. And
00:32:59
Speaker
with all of the context that we've put into the opening half an hour of this pod, I think it will have to change it and it will have to change. In terms of names, it's been quite interesting listening to you guys speak there. Scott Parker is a really interesting one because I've seen, and this is from someone, by the way, who absolutely adores Scott Parker and loved him as a footballer. And basically, I based my game on what I tried to do as a footballer off Scott Parker.
00:33:25
Speaker
for me to criticise him. I feel a little bit like I'm going against myself, but you just have to speak to if you can find one. That's a joke, by the way. Any Bournemouth fan from their last promotion season, they weren't too pleased with him and his style of play. Fulham, likewise, when they went up, and as soon as he went up to the Premier League, he was moaning about a lack of resource, so I don't particularly see that one as viable. I think Ross is a really interesting one because I
00:33:51
Speaker
watched what he's trying to do at Swansea. I've watched Swansea on a few occasions this year for research purposes and I actually think if and again it's the old the age old thing I think if he had a better quality of player I think the style of football that he was trying he's trying to implement there would be really attractive and really fun to watch and I like some of the ideas but that's just me in terms of what I like to watch when I watch football. I also understand why people would be against that and
00:34:17
Speaker
why maybe the connection isn't necessarily a good thing to some people. So I don't think there is a perfect candidate, there never is in these things. I think Norwich would go abroad this time, I do.
00:34:28
Speaker
But again, I just don't get the sense that it's something that is in their consciousness at the moment, and it should be. Part of me wonders, Conor, if it might be a similar situation to that Leeds and then Brentford game, where what they saw on Saturday and what they experienced on Saturday means that they've made their decision and then it comes out after
Managerial Speculations and Fan Discontent
00:34:53
Speaker
the Luton game.
00:34:53
Speaker
So basically he's already gone. They are now getting their ducks in a row in terms of how the search is going to be conducted and that will be done after looting. So maybe the decision has been done. Quite possibly and there was also a mechanical reason behind that in terms of the way that the football club operates is they had to convene a meeting of the board of directors. That's very difficult to get them all in the room at the same time. Obviously now that's probably even more difficult because they've got an American on the board who lives in America so it's almost
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's almost like trying to pass a law through Parliament. You have to get it signed off by the monarch. That's kind of the way I would look at it. That's Stephen Fry in our case. So I think that there is a possibility of that being the case. There was also a factor last time that they were courting someone who didn't end up wanting the job and had something else lined up. So that made it slightly more difficult from their perspective and was probably why they were
00:35:47
Speaker
maybe a bit more reactive in terms of the appointment that they made in the end. So all of this is, yeah, all of it is quite interesting because nobody really knows and it just feels to me completely unsustainable to just think that you can go on like this because, okay, they're away on Boxing Day, but after that they've got free home games back to back.
00:36:08
Speaker
And so are you just going to put Dean Smith back in front of the fans again? I don't really see how that works. I just wrote back for me for a moment. Right. So you've you've said when we appointed Dean Smith that we were actively courting someone who had someone else lined up. Is that the person that we all think it is, i.e. Frank Lampard? And is it if that. OK. All right. I'm slightly more reassured to them. I mean, if you just think about the post Christmas
00:36:39
Speaker
Bloat and hangover and how grumpy people might be especially into the new year starting dry January And and then they have to and then effectively what is already across It like that if we're that unpleasant to him When there's Christmas spirit in the air, what are we gonna be like on the first couple of games of January? I mean, it's gonna be it's gonna be brutal and the point is it's it's really it's really unpleasant and I'll stay with my
00:37:06
Speaker
I was there with my lad on Saturday and he was not really that aware of the vitriol. He found the chant around them as he said to his mother. They said that Dean Smith's football was excrement, which I thought was very funny. He's already at the age seven knowing that you say different things at home as you do at football.
00:37:25
Speaker
But I did think it was funny that he didn't really pick up on that. But there is only a matter of time where it's going to get to throwing things at him. Because the fans get really angry. And what I also don't want to happen is I don't want them to then turn that attention to the director's box and start singing daily, sort it out. Because you start to see some of that unpleasant misogynist or the cook says some of that awfulness starts to come out of our fan base when things are not going well. When we don't feel we're being listened to as a fan base,
00:37:55
Speaker
That's that's exactly the thing as well. It's it's That idea that they're not being listened to and they're not being heard and and that makes people more angry it makes Frustration become quite mobish and yeah, that's that's dangerous I think for any football club any organization to entertain Well, they got a taste of that with moxie didn't they when when when we basically felt that we were
00:38:16
Speaker
We weren't being listened to with regards to him being basically the wrong sort of person to be anywhere near our football club. And I think that really resonated with them.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah, I just I hope we are in a Brentford lead situation. I think I hope as in I hope we are. This is actually we, you know, the content that's being created by us all this week around hoping for a change come, you know, Monday night, it will be a case of, oh, there's there's been one. But I mean, even so that like to our points before it feels like a wasted opportunity to
00:38:52
Speaker
start getting the applications in sooner. So let's do some guarantees for Luton then. Maddy I want a guaranteed Boxing Day score and a guaranteed scorer for Norwich please. Well I was going to say Norwich won't score against Luton so I was going to say 2-0 to Luton with no Norwich scorer. You can guarantee a no Norwich scorer if you want
00:39:16
Speaker
No, I'll guarantee a Norwich own goal. And I think he will drop Ben Gibson and bring it on my mama daily. And then on my mama daily, we'll get an unfortunate own goal and everyone will go, Ooh, what do we do now? Do we blame him? Do we have a problem with him? And it will just bring up all of these weird sentiments. So yeah, two-nil Luton, own goal on my mama daily. And then, I don't know, some other random Luton player to get it in the 80th minute and make us all depressed on a Boxing Day evening.
00:39:43
Speaker
Okay, John, you love you and you think they're the best team to ever play football, so what, you're going 6-0? I am. I actually think we're going to win.
00:39:56
Speaker
I think Norwich are going to do a win and I think we will limp on and just for shits and giggles, I think that we will go out and score two early goals because that's exactly what Dean Smith said we needed to do. So and let's say that Sarge is going to score them both and that we will come home with a 2-0 victory, which won't be outstanding in terms of performance. It will be just enough to kind of keep Dean Smith's, not necessarily his head, but maybe just his eyes and his hair above water.
00:40:25
Speaker
Well, I mean, if my suggested analogy is right, any victory won't be enough because we won against Brentford, didn't we? And Fark still went... What do you know then, Thomas? What do you know? Your informed guarantees, Connor.
00:40:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think Norwich will win as well. And I would go down a similar line to John, actually. And to be honest, I think it's a game that Norwich might have won before the World Cup break. And I think it's a game that they might win after. That's the thing, though, isn't it? Because that's kind of the narrative that they win and they're inconsistent. And it's not really the away form that's been an issue. Maybe if you zoomed in on a bit more, it probably isn't automatic promotion form.
00:41:04
Speaker
on a wider scale, it's not been as bad as the home form. So yeah, I could see them winning. They don't tend to do very well at Kenilworth Road though, do they? I think it was 2007 since the last one there. They didn't win there in the last title winning campaign. I'm going to go for 2-1 though. I think Grant Hanley might score a header.
00:41:34
Speaker
It's time for the Long Come Norwich quiz. It's a Christmas themed Christmas World Cup edition which doesn't really have that much to do with this year's World Cup because John said he didn't know much about it so I didn't think that was fair. I said that after you did the questions mate.
00:41:49
Speaker
Right. I was trying to give you a bit of advantage in making out like I prepared it for you, but I guess that might set you up for more of a fall. So, Connor, you're going first. You're the only one who's paid to know stuff about football. So your minute to answer... Debatable, that. Well, quite. You're... Well, no, I don't think it's debatable that professionally you are employed.
00:42:12
Speaker
Like, I don't think we agree. Well, no, that's true. I mean, yeah, probably more that I know stuff about football is debatable. OK, yeah. The premise of your question is right. Thank you. Your minute to answer six questions. They've got nothing to do with Norwich. Start now. Name one of the six Nottingham Forest players at the 2022 FIFA World Cup finals. Who plays for Forest this week? Might want to use a pass here, Connor.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, pass. I'll pass that. Name a player to win over 125 caps for Spain. Javi. Correct. Name a player to win an England cap whilst with a Welsh club. I can only think of Welsh players, so I'll pass that one. OK. Come back to it. Name one of the six Mexicans with over 30 all-time international goals.
00:43:09
Speaker
Which nation has finished FA Cup? Sorry, a FIFA World Cup tournament in third place the most times? The Netherlands? That's not correct, but that's your time. Well, they were hard. Yes, they were hard, Thomas. But Conor is a professional. Just to go back, the six Nottingham Forest players you could have had, Brandon Aguilera,
00:43:38
Speaker
Czech Coyote, Remo Froula, Nico Williams, Brennan Johnson and Wayne Hennessy. So a big Welsh contingent. Disappointed with the Welsh ones. Yeah, I'm disappointed with the Welsh ones. You picked Xavi for players over 125 caps for Spain. You could have had Sergio Ramos and Casillas and Biscuits and some others. John, do you know which players have won an England cap whilst with the Welsh club? Who's players is there? Two, yeah.
00:44:07
Speaker
Um, is it someone from like the most recent, like half decent Swansea team? Yeah. I've got one in my head. Yeah. Go on. But I don't know. Uh, Scott Sinclair, was he, did he get one when he was at Swansea? No. So it is John Joe Shelby with Swansea. Blimey. Yay. Both ride with Cardiff in 2010.
00:44:33
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. So it's just roll off the tip of the tongue, don't they? Obviously. Yeah, you've got, you picked a little P in terms of Mexican, Canadian, and some others. Germany have finished in third place four times. Brazil, France, Poland, and Sweden have finished in third place twice each.
00:44:53
Speaker
So whilst the Netherlands have failed a lot, they haven't even managed to then win the playoff. Right. Then you didn't get to the final one. So never mind. So I think I make that two, which is usually a pass score. Pass score. No, two is fine. Two is fine. I'll take it here.
00:45:12
Speaker
And bear in mind, that's that's the pre-internet adjusted score. So that's pre us finding out that I've got the answers wrong. And so that's that score could rise at any point. Every answer is basically with an asterisk. Right, Maddy, you've got two to try and draw level or three to take the lead. And your minute starts now. Name one of the players to Captain England more often than Harry Kane. Way ready.
00:45:39
Speaker
Incorrect. Name one of the Argentinians besides Messi to get 100 Argentinian caps. Sergio Aguero? Has he done it? He has done it. 101. Name a Japanese player to have made more than 30 Premier League appearances. Not a clay pass. Okay. Name one of the last six players to score for England against Wales before this World Cup.
00:46:03
Speaker
Against Wales. I'm trying to think who did it in the Euros. I'll just go for Harry Kane as an easy answer. Incorrect. Name a non-British club to have supplied an English player for a World Cup finals. All time. English player for a World Cup finals. For a non-British club. Oh, God. Non-British club. Barcelona. No. Name one of the five Newcastle sports-washing United players that are at the World Cup. Time. See, mate, I know nothing.
00:46:31
Speaker
I'm proud of it. You've got one and you've got that one very quickly. Yes. Right. Okay. So players to captain England more than Harry Kane, John Connor.
00:46:43
Speaker
John Terry? No, you could have had... Brian Robson? Yes, Brian Robson. You could have had Billy Wright, Bobby Royal and Beckham as well. You've got Aguero with the 101 caps. Japanese players... Masurano? Yeah, you could have had Masurano. He's the top one, 147. Then Zanetti, Di Maria, etc. Then you've got Yoshida, Okazaki, Inamoto, Minamino. They're all people you could have gone for for the Japanese player.
00:47:10
Speaker
And Connor Cody, Danny Ings, Dominic Calvert-Lewin, Jamie Vardy, Daniel Sturridge and Ashley Young were the last six people to score against Wales. And you could have had AC Milan, Bayern Munich, British Dortmund, FC Colm, Internet Channel, Milan, Marseille and Real Madrid for the players to provide. So basically everyone else?
00:47:31
Speaker
Yeah, all the other famous clubs. Nice. And yeah, I don't think what we didn't get through the Newcastle sports watching United players at the World Cup. So, Jon, you've got one to not come last. Time starts now. Name one of the three teams that got a red card in the World Cup. Holland. Incorrect. Name a Brazilian to have made more than... Oh, no, I've done that wrong. No, I'm right. Name a Brazilian to have made more than 200 Premier League appearances.
00:48:02
Speaker
Pass. Besides from Ronaldo, name one of the Portuguese that have over 100 caps. Metinho? Yep. Name an African team that England have scored against under Gareth Southgate. Senegal. Incorrect. Other than Rashford. It actually happened this World Cup, mate. Yeah, but this is before the World Cup. I forgot to add that bit in. We did say that. I'll give you a point. Other than Rashford this year, name from an United player who has scored for a World Cup for England.
00:48:33
Speaker
This is your easiest one. Wayne Rooney. Okay, correct. And name one of the Netherlands' managers to lose a World Cup final. Time. That was a really hard one. That was a really hard one. What was the answer, Cruyff?
00:48:49
Speaker
No, you could have had rhinos, mickles, urcht, apple, or Bert van Marwick. Of course. He was the one that lost to Spain in 2010. Of course. Okay, so it's a two-way tiebreak, although Maddie, you can join in as well. One of the questions was about Brazilians making over 200 league appearances.
00:49:11
Speaker
I would like you to give me an exact number, please. How many Premier League appearances has Roberto Firmino made in the Premier League appearances, Premier League? So, Maddie, coming to you first. Roberto Firmino, it's over 200. Why? Because I believe that you know the answer. It's over 200. May I? Because that was the question. How many Premier League appearances? 235. 235. That's locked in. John?
00:49:40
Speaker
I was going to say 242, so yeah, I'll stick with that. Okay. Connor? 260. And John is the closest. Congratulations. 244, he was only two away. Nice. That was at the time whenever that question was written, but it's the same for all teams. Can I just acknowledge as well that we completely forgot to do listener questions, Tom? Thank you for all those lovely questions. Do you want to do your favourite one now?
00:50:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, go on then. And this is the one that is guaranteed to have won a Long Come Knowledge merch. It was the first one that we had in, and it's from Matthew McGregor who always asks us a question. And he said, in retrospect, would you rather have had Frankie Datori, i.e. Frank Lampard, as our manager? Well, firstly, I genuinely thought he meant Frankie Datori. Let's just do both. Actually, let's just reframe it and go Connor.
00:50:39
Speaker
For Norwich's next manager, would you rather have Frank Lampard or Frank each touring? Yeah, probably Lampard, probably. And what I would say is I think that would have been, for maybe the wrong reasons or maybe the right reasons, more entertaining. But some would argue that it couldn't have been any less entertaining. So yeah, as an observer, I think Frank Lampard at Norwich City and the juxtaposition there would have been quite interesting to watch.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think I don't think you'd have had a massive difference if I'm honest. Yeah, I think we'd be around about where we are now. Maddie, what do you think?
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with Connor. I think if we weren't Norwich fans, it would be absolutely hilarious because we would just be able to watch, you know, what's happening to Everton happen to us instead. Unfortunately, we are Norwich fans, so we would have had to live through it. So, God, I just I just remember the pain at that time thinking, these are our choices, Dean Smith and Frank Lampard really, and everyone go, oh, no, no, no, one of them will be good. Well, maybe he would have been good. But for now, we're stuck with what we've got instead.
00:51:44
Speaker
Yeah, I talked to myself into Lampard. From Connor's point, the world is different. It would be a very newsworthy, it would be nice to be a newsworthy club from that point of view. But I don't know, I don't feel like I've got any sense of
00:52:06
Speaker
what Frank Lampard would bring, Norwich, besides the chaos that was at Everton. I mean, the one thing I am aware of is quite how much chaos there had been at Everton already that he was kind of inheriting, if you see what I mean. So I'm not really sure that you can, 100%, I mean, I'm not saying I want Lampard to replace Smith now, but I'm not 100% sure that we as a football, footballing public definitely necessarily know what the Lampard experience would be like.
00:52:33
Speaker
in a team that wasn't quite as much of a clown car as ever and were in terms of wasted money and disjointed squad and unhappy players and all the rest of it that he had to deal with there. But anyway, I hope we never know. I think it's probably safe to say that we'll never know. Yeah, almost certainly.
00:52:53
Speaker
Thank you for your questions. I think we covered most of what was asked, which is effectively what on earth is going to happen and will there be a replacement. Connor, we thank you so much for your time. Maddie, I appreciate you joining us this lunchtime. John, I acknowledge at Christmas that you exist more than ever. And enjoy whatever happens on Boxing Day. Let's hope that there is either a fantastic turnaround in the fortunes of the football that we play or a change of manager. Either would be a good result in my festive stocking.
00:53:23
Speaker
you