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"Half Full Vs Half Empty" ACN Pod 122
998 Plays1 year ago
Tom & Jon reflect on a split between fans that see things to be positive about and those ready to turn the page on David Wagner. There's a new sporting director, but same old inconsistent Nodge.
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Transcript
Introduction & David Wagner's Tenure
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Norwich Podcast. I was looking through some old intros and I pulled up this one from the 4th of January where I said, welcome to the Long Come Norwich Podcast, a venture into verbal volleyball where we vigorously investigate the value of the newly verified Norwich manager David Wagner. It was just me and thee that day and it's just me and thee today. I asked Punt to get reacting and I'm going to do the same again.
00:00:48
Speaker
So, Pun, how are we feeling about David Wagner nine months hence? Not brilliant. I think the scales have tipped in the last couple of weeks for me. I put it on my social media. I've kind of pivoted towards Wagner out. I know that's not a position or a view that you share. No. But I just think
00:01:13
Speaker
I don't know what he is in terms of a head coach. I wonder whether, and I said it on this before, I wonder whether he's a busted flush.
Team Selection & Injury Impact
00:01:20
Speaker
I wonder whether he's been working off two really great seasons at Huddersfield, but then actually the breadth of his work elsewhere doesn't really stand the test. Yeah, there's some mitigations around that, but actually would have expected him to do better than he has, probably. Would I have expected him to do better last season with the players that he had at his disposal? Yes.
00:01:42
Speaker
And so then we come to this season and yeah, all right, you can say the absence of not necessarily Ashley Barnes, but the absence of Josh Sargent would scupper any championship side of that. I don't think there's any debating, but I think to take one slash two players out of a lineup
00:02:03
Speaker
and then for us to look an absolute shadow of the side that we were for the first what six games or whatever it was until um sarge got injured really worries me i think i'm quite baffled at his team selections at the moment i he's gone from seemingly not rated san mccallum full stop to then chucking him in for for one of
00:02:24
Speaker
I thought that you know the best performance this season in the new list is playing gives us a ten i don't think it is a ten at all i don't think his qualities lend itself to that kind of role and.
00:02:36
Speaker
he came out post-match and seemed really quite satisfied with the way things went at Coventry and it was almost like, yeah, that's the plan. We're going to let them have the ball, going to let them have loads of possession and we were going to be decent in transition and be solid and all of those things. And I didn't really see us be very good in transition. So it's all very well having that plan and setting traps and doing all those things. But
00:02:58
Speaker
We put probably one, maybe two meaningful moves together all game for me. One of those resulted in a goal, a very good goal when you look at it back, you know, kind of some stellar work from Stacey and Gibbs and then John Rowe to finish it. But beyond that, I saw nothing against Coventry. I didn't see much for about half of the Swansea game.
Management Transitions & Tactical Defense
00:03:18
Speaker
The Plymouth game, I mean, psychologically, I don't know, we haven't talked about the Plymouth game because we haven't potted for a while, but psychologically, I don't see how a team comes back from that with the same head coach and the club is in limbo. There's no doubt about that. We're, you know, we're lurching from or not lurching, but we are moving and transitioning from one sporting director to another. You know, the processes around that are beginning to become more solidified and we're understanding, you know, obviously we know who it is now.
00:03:48
Speaker
It's going to be a handover period. All of that is really positive. There's no way that Wagner is going to be Ben Nappa's man longer term. So I just think let's push the button. Let's restart it now. Because if we don't, the trajectory that we're on at the moment is I think will be mid table fodder quite quickly. And the football that was quite exciting at the start of the season doesn't seem that exciting to me anymore.
00:04:14
Speaker
Well the case for the defence in many of the things you've said starting not quite in order because I wasn't writing it down because you know why would I this isn't a job. First and foremost
00:04:28
Speaker
I think you do have to say that it's not one and a bit, it really is two and they're in the same position. So the Sargent and Barnes factor were such a huge part of why we were so exciting to watch and why we were such a handful for teams and why teams weren't able to kind of watch the previous two, three performances and have our number.
00:04:48
Speaker
You know other than Southampton where we we seem to be when that whole game was just bonkers from from both sides of you very difficult to analyze from either team. We we are a real handful going forward our press is absolutely superb and we we really did seem to be playing very.
00:05:06
Speaker
kind of impactful, decisive passes forward quickly but not in any way lumping and hoping with real vigor and enthusiasm and our midfield players and wide players were getting up and around our front two really quickly to receive the balls after that first ball forward and then we would play triangles 20 yards forward from where we were just playing triangles and it made perfect sense.
Strategic Challenges Without Key Players
00:05:32
Speaker
What I don't
00:05:34
Speaker
The main thing I don't agree with you and the other detractors of Wagner and or Norwich generally is I've still seen elements of that in the most recent games. I appreciate it's frustrating that we're not doing it in as big a chunks of those games as we were in the early season but
00:05:52
Speaker
I fundamentally think that that is down to the fact that we have lost our striker one and striker two. We've made no bones about the fact that we wouldn't have given him a five-year contract. I don't think he's ever shown anything to suggest that he can lead the line at this level.
00:06:09
Speaker
He can be a goal scorer and a finisher, but he also misses really quite easy chances. I think he's scored from two more difficult chances than some of the ones he's missed, to be honest. Since he's been leading the line, that was shown from the fact that Huang got a go. And likewise, I think he's now made seven appearances. And to be honest, looks like a keen runner.
00:06:33
Speaker
But I think in Ida and Huang, we've basically got two players who have got some elements without the experience of Barnes and Sargent's game. And I think we are seeing the drop-off of that. Now, it's not great to be completely reliant in the same way we never won a game without Wendy. You don't want one player
00:06:53
Speaker
or one or two players to drop out position. But when it's two in the same position, I think that is more impactful than maybe losing a left back and a striker or a central defender and a striker because effectively you are weakening your two rungs down from what you thought you were going to be going to battle with.
00:07:11
Speaker
Now, on the side of things of, you know, to pick up a couple of things you said, you mentioned Dimmy brilliant performances. I agree, really confused that he was taken out of the team. But he's in my top three. If Barry Butler's boating was tomorrow,
00:07:26
Speaker
Dimmy is getting one of my three votes. Absolutely no doubt about that. And you mentioned another name there, Stacy. Our fullbacks have been superb. Now, that is a Wagner thing. We have not been a super full-backy, bombing-only kind of team. I know Aaron's did some great work in Farkas' time at the club, but never with the same repetitiveness. And it is clearly a key facet of the way Wagner likes to get forward is to play through with those two wingers.
00:07:55
Speaker
I still really enjoy that. You know, Johnny Rowe, we talked about it in the preseason pod. We, you know, if this team is going to be anything, we're going to need a player like that to step up and congratulations on your England under 21 cap. Absolutely deserved. Uh, but he is a young lad and the reason that he's an England under 21 international in the championship rather than in the premier league is at the moment he is
Fan Expectations & League Position
00:08:17
Speaker
almost you have to give him a couple of games where he doesn't make that much of an impact. He did very little apart from his goal, for example, in his hour or so out in the Midlands at the weekend. And you do kind of have to give him that pass because he's irrelevant of his age. Even if he was 25, the point is he's only in what?
00:08:38
Speaker
10, 11 senior games. He's hardly played football at this level. So, you know, it's insane that we've got six goals out of him or seven or whatever it is now. It's bonkers. It's terrific news. But again, it's not fair to expect him to be week in, week out right now. So when you bear that in mind that, you know, our maybe best three players going forward, two of which are missing and one is a kid and a very inexperienced kid in that.
00:09:06
Speaker
really I think the the decision to extend Ida that's probably on Webber if we're going to put it on anyone's feet who's currently at the club and he's going so I kind of give Wagner a pass for that and Huang very very short notice after the Sergeant injury best we possibly could get in he's contributed to some pressing and if it wasn't for Ida, Placeta
00:09:30
Speaker
and at one stage Gibbs not, I'm thinking about the last couple of home games, just rolling the ball into his path. I think he would have had a couple of goals by now. He has taken up some good positions and not received a ball because his energy is good. So I don't know, I'm ironically not typically Mr Glass half full, but
00:09:51
Speaker
This season to me, we are the up and down team that we thought we were going to be. I actually think some of the goals we've scored and some of the attacks we've had have been a lot more enjoyable than we've had, than we maybe expected it to be. And one thing I said to you after the game on Saturday, because you were more down on it than I was on after Saturday,
00:10:15
Speaker
The atmosphere, I've only been to Craven Cottage. We've only done the one away game this year. I don't like to say apologies because no one pays us to do this pod. It is unfortunate we haven't podded more recently. We've taken it in terms of having Covid. It's been a rubbish two or three weeks in terms of me and Punts availability, so sorry we couldn't get around the mics together. The
00:10:39
Speaker
after Saturday night I was left feeling really disappointed at the you know the late equalizer and I'm afraid it was my scapegoat is the one guy that I think really is I'm other than either you know I do I do think Gibson is his out stayed his welcome in as a first-choice centre back at Norwich but yeah he was unlucky with that goal
00:11:01
Speaker
I think generally you can hear the away fans singing. The numbers are still good because they do know they are going to get some good football. They might not get a result. They might not get 90 minutes of it. But to me, this team is a top 10 to top 12 team without those front two players.
00:11:25
Speaker
And with those front two players, we're a top 16. And the results have shown that. I think it is going to be win one, lose one, win two, lose two. I think that's what we're going to get until we get those two back. So to me, it's more a case of they are almost exactly aligning with my expectations.
Coaching Challenges & Team Psychology
00:11:42
Speaker
And maybe I didn't get quite as, maybe my expectations didn't change that much based on that opening volley of the first few games.
00:11:51
Speaker
Because once we lost those two players, it was just so clear that, well, we're not going to be the same team. I get that.
00:11:59
Speaker
I get your point of view and I appreciate the perspective from people who are still behind the manager and I think the reason that I'm not is I genuinely think it is one player. I think once Sargent had dipped out Barnes looked an absolute shadow of the player that he was when he had Sargent around him so to me it's clear that Barnes probably needs legs around him.
00:12:23
Speaker
But I think it's, so there's a few strands to this. I think it's a failure of coaching that we haven't adjusted the style to suit Ida or Huang or Gibbs or Sarah or whoever you're going to put up there. I think there is a failure of coaching to adjust. And he's been asked this by the Pinken boys because I've seen the press conferences, you know, kind of, do you think you need to tweak things and maybe play in a slightly different way? And he's like, no, they all know what, you know, kind of what I want them to do.
00:12:50
Speaker
will so either coach them to be able to do what you want to do or or change a little bit you know kind of just just tweak it and he hasn't done that um but also that is allied to the fact that all right you defend from the front but actually actually the concessions that we're offering now seem to be way more significant than than they have been
00:13:13
Speaker
probably all of this season. And this is where I say the trajectory is down. We are now conceding lots of possession, lots of chances.
Future of the Club Under Wagner
00:13:23
Speaker
lots of things that I don't think is typically characteristic of an Irish city side to do. And that isn't because Josh Sargent is missing. I think that actually, psychologically, this team is still frail. And we are, as I say, mid table championship fodder. I don't think we're in anything more than that. And I think certainly with Ashley Barnes, I don't think we're anything more than that with Sargent. Maybe we, you know, kind of top eight, something along those lines, but he's out till January. And I just
00:13:53
Speaker
Given that Stuart Weber probably won't be here by the turn of the year, given that historically sporting directors don't typically stay with the head coach that they've got in situ, unless things are going incredibly well, it just feels inevitable to me that Wagner isn't going to be here. So why are we wasting our time on him? If you've got Nappa that is watching from afar,
00:14:16
Speaker
why would you not maybe be looking to accelerate that process? Because otherwise this season will potentially be a write-off. I can't see us right now challenging for the top six. I just don't think we'll have that in us. And all right, we're only maybe a couple of points off fourth or whatever it is, but a couple of points off 15th maybe as well. Yeah, but that's the case with championship. And we're not playing particularly well. We're not playing particularly well. I think that's my worry is that we've got games coming up,
00:14:44
Speaker
I am incredibly worried at how toxic Carrow Road could get if Daniel Farka's lead side turn us over and then Daniel Farka, not really giving a fuck about us anymore, is going to whip over to the travelling support, give it the oles to the Leeds fans, because why wouldn't you if you're him? And that'll go down well, won't it?
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, I don't think it could be any more toxic than if we were fourth and that happened. I think you're under playing that there is a strength of feeling, I think, that is growing, that is...
00:15:24
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. What is going on, like Wagner can't get a grip of this. Genuinely, I'm not sure that he can get a grip of this. And, you know, like, I do think he needs to adjust to players like Adam Ida. I think it's, I actually think it's horrible that Adam Ida has been scapegoated in the way that he has. But he's had so many opportunities. You look at him on Saturday and apart from where, look, he could crane his neck at that chance or he could go in and slide towards it. But actually, this is a lad that, you know, has had pelters.
00:15:54
Speaker
He's not playing that badly, and he's got nothing around him. He's got absolutely nothing around him in terms of chance creation. So what are we expecting from him? Because to me, he seems a bit more of a finisher rather than a hard worker. So unless we serve up those chances, what do we expect? Yeah, he missed an absolute howler the other night. Of that, there is no doubt.
00:16:16
Speaker
But all strikers do that. We've seen Simipuki do that. We've seen Grant Holt do that. I think there is a player there, as I've said on this pod many times. I think we've completely mismanaged his development. I think he needs a regular run of games and to score goals. I don't think that should have been for Norwich City, but we are where we are now.
00:16:36
Speaker
give him a chance, get behind him. So I don't like the fact that he's been scapegoated. I don't like the fact because I think, again, it's a failure of coaching to properly support him. I don't like the fact that Ben Gibson has been scapegoated either, because actually, I think he's this season, he's been nowhere near the problem. You know, I think he's been perfectly fine this season, actually. So.
00:17:00
Speaker
It's a real mixed bag for me, but I just don't see it getting any better under Wagner. And I think that's where I'm at or that's why I am where I am. You mentioned the new sporting director. So Ben Nappa is the guy, former loans dude, I think this is the title, Arsenal. So, you know, he has got the Markinos stink on him. But if we... Are we laying that on him?
00:17:27
Speaker
But I've got no idea how involved he was. But I mean, just an excuse to remember what an idiot that guy was. He was useless.
00:17:35
Speaker
The thing about, obviously you're completely right when it comes to in all sports, when you have this kind of two-tier system of general manager and coach or sporting director and manager or however, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, usually a broom comes through and sweeps out and the backroom staff will change over. You expect lots of change over.
00:17:58
Speaker
However, it's relatively recent. These interviews might have been ongoing from the summer and it might have been a long term arranging compensation with Arsenal. Who knows? He may have had a fair inkling. It was going to be him for a couple of months. I would still argue that
00:18:15
Speaker
that's probably not enough of a body of evidence for him to necessarily know who his shortlist of candidates for who he'd bring in is. So what I wouldn't want us to do is, I'm very much, I was so, okay, this sounds over dramatic, but fuck it. I was so scarred by how much
00:18:44
Speaker
Smith's brand of football made me not want to go to Carroll Road.
00:18:48
Speaker
which I have never felt. And I do not feel anything like that with Wagner's football. We might lose and we might not play very well, but we are also, this season in recent games, capable of passages of play with individual players that have got me off my seat and made me excited to go and made me want to go. And I want to celebrate Rose's success. I'm delighted we've got another one off the conveyor belt. I love watching Gabby Saren. I think he's a really good player.
00:19:15
Speaker
I love that Kenny's got an important role in this team. I really want Gibbs to come good, but I think talking about mismanaging his football development, he's about seven different types of midfielder he's been asked to be in his cameos this year. He might be a 10. If he played there nonstop, I think he's probably got the ability eventually to be a 10. But he played there for the 23s regularly and just got groomed as a 10. Yeah, fine. But point is, I think he's
00:19:40
Speaker
I don't think that's necessarily Wagner. I think there has been an eye off the ball in that player development. And I think Johnny Rowe is maybe the current anomaly in that his ability has all come good at the right time. And maybe we'd have seen it last year if it wasn't for injuries. Maybe that player has been there ready to unlock for a while.
Managerial Decisions & Team Cohesion
00:20:00
Speaker
But I'd be cautious too. So I haven't heard a single grumble about Wagner.
00:20:09
Speaker
where i am at carrode i haven't heard a single grumble about Wagner in my lads chat um like annoyed that we've mucked something up but compared to uh last days of Farka last days of insert any manager or pretty much every day of Smith
00:20:28
Speaker
there was constant manager baiting. It may be that your social circle has already gone and it will happen in different pockets and it always kind of takes time to go around. It might be. But honestly, I'm not seeing that. I'm not hearing that. I'm nowhere near as frequent on social media as you. Not that you're exactly a non-stop teenager, but you know what I mean.
00:20:50
Speaker
I do dip in and out around game time and other than the usual detractors who, to be honest, are the first ones to go every time, I'm not seeing the middle ground people really seem to have gone yet because I do think there's enough mitigating circumstances.
00:21:08
Speaker
You know that the last home performance was really positive and that is a big difference. We stunk the place out at home under Smith Yeah, and we and you know, it's a way where we stink the place out under partner And that's the different and I wonder whether how much the strength of the depth of feeling would be different if it was homeform garbage
00:21:27
Speaker
That's the thing that the majority of people spend their hard-earned money on, inverted commas. You know, 3,000 we took to Coventry. They'll be disappointed they didn't see as good a performance. But again, going back, I've only got the one very small sample size. The only game I've been able to go away to was Craven Cottage. And that was a good performance. It was obviously, it was a cup. It was a cup league lineup that we put out. Fulham were very strong.
00:21:58
Speaker
But the effort, there was the clown shoes' goal early on, but that aside, we played brilliantly, and the likes of Fisher looked fantastic, and Sam McClellan played really well in that game, and the young lad Warner played really, really well, and we sang all the way through, and obviously then Saints came on and gave us a bit of hope at the end, but we were already singing behind the boys before he got that goal. So I don't know.
00:22:23
Speaker
I think that it's better the devil you know with Wagner because we've seen how bad it can be when you appoint someone in a quick fashion like Smith and when you should have taken longer over it and if Napa's not really sure that he's got the next insert name of young upcoming manager and no I won't be using that one from up the road as an example unless you've got that
00:22:45
Speaker
Guy who you think is or go who's progressive and gonna do something differently with this squad and can and can articulate to you what's your plan with either what's your plan if sergeant's injury is longer than january then i say i'd rather have a good game every other game.
00:23:03
Speaker
And I don't think we're going to be getting lots of 6-2s. And Chris Gorham made an excellent point after the Plymouth game on a subsequent game, that after that game he looked at Wagner's Huddersfield. And I think they lost by four or more goals three times in the season when they got promoted.
00:23:25
Speaker
I think that is an element of Agna. I do think he is a bit, if you're getting people to bomb on, then you are going to be exposed on the counter. And that's how the Swansea go happen. If we wanted to grind out a draw against Swansea, we'd have ground out a draw against Swansea. We were bombing forward trying to get a winner. And to be honest, that's my manager. That's the way I'd rather be. Yeah, I've got no issue with us pressing for three points all the time, but I just
00:23:49
Speaker
I see a real fragility around what Norwich do. And what I also see, I think, is that Wagner's tactics might have been worked out a little bit as well. So I think teams are now savvy towards the way in which we're going to approach ourselves. Birmingham weren't. Birmingham weren't. Birmingham were shite, mate. Yeah, but they haven't been shite. But they've got injuries. They were shite against us. Like, absolute. Apart from, what's his name, Stansfield, up front. And then the, forgive me, I don't know his name, but the,
00:24:18
Speaker
wide play in number 11, who I thought was really promising all night. Birmingham were really bad. Like really, really bad. The Stoke played well. The second half Stoke really threw everything at us. And in terms of creativity, we stood up to that challenge really well. We did. But we didn't stand up to it against Swansea. We didn't stand up to it.
00:24:34
Speaker
against Leicester, you could argue although I thought they were very unlucky. We didn't stand up to it against Swansea, certainly didn't stand up to it against Plymouth. Swansea, we came from a go down and we had a slow start, we came from a go down and then bossed it for about 45 minutes either side of half time.
00:24:53
Speaker
But we were really poor the other two sides of that. So again, it's like, it's halfway houses. But we're not good enough to dominate a game for 90 minutes. We don't have the players. We knew we weren't going to have the players. You don't need 90 minutes. You need like a 60, 70 minute performance. And what I think we get a lot is 40, 45 minute performances. I don't think that gives us enough. But I come back to you. So I take your point around.
00:25:15
Speaker
So if we haven't got someone lined up, why should we change? I never think that's a reason to not sack your manager. I think if it's not working, get rid. But also, if we accept the logic that Wagner is not going to be an appers man, and I think most people would look at that and go, do you think David Wagner is going to be Norris City's head coach in six to nine months time? Most people are like, probably not.
00:25:46
Speaker
What's, what's the harm in going for a month or two with Pelach or, you know, if you pronounce his name, because he seems to be doing most of the coaching from the touchline anyway. You know, that's the thing you'll cross about. So why keep him, keep Vardar and get rid of him. If there's coaching, you don't like, you may as well have a slight difference. You may as well have a slightly different voice at the top. If it, you know, kind of, if it's, you know, I just.
00:26:08
Speaker
Andy Hughes just basically just go fucking hell not Andy Hughes, no not Andy Hughes. I mean you know his relationships with supporters may be slightly more frayed than Wagner's were. That's the thing that I think Wagner's done really well is to help unite a fan base and to understand the importance of connection with supporters and I applaud him for that and I
00:26:31
Speaker
so pleased that he's brought that back to Carrow Road and to the away support. And I think, you know, him, but also City Elite, you know, in terms of the drum have been a massive part of that. So, you know, the kind of coming together of support around players post Dean Smith era, Wagner has been hugely important, but I just don't think he's what we need right now. And I see nothing short of a few games with Josh Sargent in our team.
00:27:01
Speaker
that tells me that it's going to be any different in a few months time.
Fan Engagement & Club Atmosphere
00:27:05
Speaker
So for me, he's going to be gone under the new guy anyway. Let's just go now. Let's hit the reset button at a really opportune moment and have a look at what's out there and try and be more progressive with what we're doing.
00:27:20
Speaker
Have you got any candidates? No. I mean, I take that bloke up the road, but I don't think you'd come to us now. Not at the moment, no. I don't have any candidates and, to be honest, wouldn't even be thinking about it because I don't...
00:27:40
Speaker
I think the issue is we are one more cycle, maybe two windows away from a squad that can challenge with regularity in games. I think that fragility you mentioned, Stacey doesn't have it. Dimmy, even though he was here,
00:27:55
Speaker
I mean, I don't think he ever had it because I think he will always go with how the rest of the team around him are playing. I think if the team, if the most of the team are at 65, 70%, that will be him. If most of the team are having a nine out of 10 kind of game, then he'll step up as well. But I almost feel like with the players they brought in, they did really well with that mentality element. I think we almost need another
00:28:20
Speaker
another couple of windows, another summer of moving out some more of the kind of failures of the last campaign and bringing some more because, like, to the point on some of the people they've got available, O and L's a trier and Shemi's a trier, but they shouldn't be anywhere near starting 11 of a championship. And when that's what Wagner's got to do with that handle, that is exactly what the new coach would have to deal with. I personally think
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, but why don't we hit the reset button now? Because those players aren't going to change. No, they're not. And Wagner can get a good tune out of him sometimes. What if the new person can't get a good tune out of him at any time? I think I'd much rather be working towards something that is more sustainable and long-term than what I think most people would accept is going to be a short-term tenure now for David Wagner. Do you know what I mean? Only if it's not successful. If he is successful, it could be another four or five years.
00:29:17
Speaker
easily. If he has... If we are in the top 10 at the end of this season and fewer than three games
00:29:34
Speaker
off the playoffs. I would say that is as much as I could have hoped. I would have hoped for to be in the race right up to the last day and maybe our place in the playoffs. But I would say that I don't I think it's going to take an incredible manager with the squad he's got available to do anything other than have this team top 10. And so therefore, what else do we want? Like some of the football is pretty good. It's you know, it's not always brilliant. So it's all right.
00:30:00
Speaker
I mean, again, I think our bar is so low. Our bar has been so low because you've just talked about it. Dean Smith here. That's my point. I love what I'm seeing now because it's so much better than what I've had recently. Now, it's not as good as I've also had before that. I was going to say, I quite like my turd sandwich because previously I had a diarrhea sandwich. No, it's not as bad as that. It's not as bad as that. It really isn't. I know. I'm just making that point.
00:30:29
Speaker
Harrow is a nice place to go at the moment and I don't want to risk it being a worse place to go because I've seen how badly appointments can go wrong and I think Wagner was capable, I think he's clearly able to tactically
00:30:48
Speaker
set his team up to do well. And I also think he sometimes can be tactically outthought by other people who are just a bit fresher than him. And maybe you've got slightly hungrier players on that a given day. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm quite enjoying that, that element of the, of the Norwich going experience at the moment. Do you think he's tactically flexible though? Do you think he's like, cause I don't see him change anything up properly. I see him change light for light players and then it not really affect games.
00:31:17
Speaker
I think he's definitely tried. He tried Johnny in the 10. He tried Johnny on the opposite flank on another day and then it really had an impact when they then switched flanks back. That's not a change in shape, that's a change in name. Just putting people in different holes. And that's my worry with him is, is that all you've got?
00:31:37
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I don't know how many managers are routinely, routinely switching between three different formations with success. There's managers who have tried it without success and they get panned for it. But I think, well, all right. So if we look at something and this is putting our bar particularly high, but if you looked at like days of Farka and when we were looking at comeback wins, we would very often stick on another striker, go three at the back, perhaps slightly shift where Emmy was playing, maybe, you know, putting more slightly more centrally, you know, kind of.
00:32:06
Speaker
There would always be tweaks to what we were trying to do. He'd bought in a third centre back and went through at the back in the last 10 seconds. But that was just to see something out and for two minutes and then we failed. No, no, he didn't fail. We worked against Stoke. Danny Bart came on against Stoke. Did he?
00:32:22
Speaker
Okay. Well, then I stand corrected in that regard. I mean, he came on against Coventry and 40 seconds later. Yeah. But I mean, that wasn't, I mean, it's nothing to do with that. It's not his fault. He didn't kick it. I mean, to say that's Wagner's fault or that in basketball. It's an excellent cross that's really difficult to deal with. Gibson has to go for it. He gets it wrong. Like, you know, these things happen in football. These things happen to me. That I can accept. What I struggled to accept more was, one,
00:32:51
Speaker
our complete capitulation post that goal going in where we nearly lost the game and to just us inviting the pressure on for 20, 25 minutes before that and not really managing a game. And again, you know, that's an issue for me. Stoke was a bit like that, to be honest, like we were 1-0 up and after about 70 minutes, we started playing like it was the 86 minutes. And, you know, we started playing as if, well, let's just see this out then, lads. And you're like, well, there's like 25 minutes left here.
00:33:17
Speaker
There's quite a lot of game left to sort of go into, let's put 11 men around the edge of the box and hope for the best.
Consistency Struggles & Long-term Strategy
00:33:24
Speaker
But no, let's have some listening questions and let's go with the vibe of what they're saying. I mean, we've just been talking about this, but I'll kick off with
00:33:33
Speaker
Ben Davey on Twitter, Ben, who we were having an appointment on Saturday. And he asks, in view of the recent form and with the appointment of a new sporting director, how many games would you give Wagner to attempt to turn things around to mount a sustained bid at the playoff positions? So I'm saying zero. I think I've made that quite clear. But how long are you giving her Wagner before? Or are you just accepting like this is what it is and if this is it for the season, then so be it.
00:34:03
Speaker
Well, firstly, Danny Bart didn't come on against Stoke, so you were right. Secondly, I don't... Yeah, I mean, I'm just not in... This is what is so odd, right? I'm just not in... This is totally opposite of where we usually are. I'm just not in managerial territory. I wouldn't give him... As far as I'm concerned, he is hamstrung with the squad he's got and with the injury he's had.
00:34:30
Speaker
And I don't agree that Barnes looked a shadow of him. I still think Barnes was. Well, you might have been a Freudian slip, but you said in injury, like single injury there instead of injuries. Yeah, because I was going to come on to the Barnes point. Like the point is, I mean, there's no doubt. I mean, it's one strike, one and two. I think everyone would agree there's quite a big gap between one and two. But I also think there's probably an even bigger gap between two and three than we realized.
00:34:54
Speaker
Because I think that my point about adjusting I think is the bit that worries me that he can't adjust a system around the personnel that he's got Yeah, but to our point about someone up the road not wanting to come Who's gonna come like who do we think that's never that's never an argument for me to go don't sack him. I
00:35:12
Speaker
It is if we're not in the relegation zone. If you're in the relegation zone, if the car is actively careering off a cliff, if there's harm being done, but I don't think there is, I don't think he's making substitutions that are directly ruining results. I don't think he's failing to try and change things, which is really frustrating when you're on a bad run of format. He loves a substitution, that boy.
00:35:38
Speaker
Pretty much. He uses all five with regularity. We love it. We can't wait to get people on. That's my thing. The argument of why wait, that's the element I think will wait because
00:35:54
Speaker
yes okay we might be close to the bottom and close to the top but then in the championship you nearly always are it's very difficult because everyone's actually quite apart from maybe lester everyone's quite crap so like last season apart from bernie everyone was quite crap so everyone every night everyone ever going again will lose to hull or will lose to qpr because everyone's a bit shit
00:36:14
Speaker
So because of that, you do tend to find it very difficult to move more than two or three games away from the bottom four or five. But whilst we are within touch and distance of the playoffs, i.e. we need a couple of results swing, that to me is always my barometer. We are a couple of results going our way away from our stated goals this season.
00:36:40
Speaker
And are you saying holler a bit shit just as you used it as an example? Yeah, I think this is this is definitely a loaded question. They have exactly the same amount of points as us. Yeah. But as I've said, I think we're a bit shit. Like, I think I think we've because we are because because we have to start sharing you know, now sometimes, you know, and I like them both.
00:36:59
Speaker
Shemi has really brought me round, I mean, because I was not a fan, only because he hadn't played very well, but he can contribute as a bit-part player in a championship promotion push if you use him in exactly the right way. I.e., who is it? We were already two up, away from home, and he sprinted onto a counter-attack ball, and... Because that's your game, I think, yeah, Lady needed a knee to the fourth, maybe. Using Shemi against the tiring opposition, when you're already winning,
00:37:26
Speaker
I'm here for it. Brilliant. What a great player. What a great asset i.e. that pace to have when all you need is pace. He shouldn't be starting a championship game. Technically he's got all the tools apart from as I think
00:37:38
Speaker
Stuart Weber has alluded to before, a brain. Unfortunately, that's quite important in a modern footballer. So to Weber's point with last season, he said in his media round, I think our invitation got lost in a post, he said, he said, look, until something like two games before the end of the season, technically, mathematically, it was perfectly possible
00:38:02
Speaker
And I can't remember if it was Sheffield Wednesday. There was one particular game that we were really hard done by with only like two or three weeks to go. And whilst we had all felt that it was miles off, actually, in pure points terms, and we were proven right. We thought, yeah, I know, but we can't. We're not going to overturn that.
00:38:22
Speaker
I do feel similarly to Webber about this season, at the moment, with how topsy-turvy the results have been, and we're still very, very early, with less than a quarter of the way through the season, or about one game off a quarter of the way through the season. I think that there will still be a team that emerges in a really solid fashion. One of the current challenges will drop off,
00:38:48
Speaker
Um, cause it always happens, you know, history is instructive in that way and we are still in touch. So look, I, I can't possibly throw any weight behind. How many games does he have left? As far as I understand, we still, we still scoring goals. We're still creating chances. So if we play out that we went winless in the next three, which is perfectly plausible, where, where do you reckon you'd be at? Or is that kind of performance related as well?
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah, to me, to be honest, it's no different to if you asked me with any almost any other manager almost any other time, you know, who hasn't just won something or whatever. And if we if we go on, if he can't fix the away form,
00:39:34
Speaker
You know, if you cannot buy a win away from love nor money, but probably most importantly is if, if Carol Rhodes stops being so much fun, like we're winning at home a lot and we're playing enough good football at home that I'm enjoying going. So we've been fortunate with the teams that we've played at home as well. Well, I think there's, there's another team down the road who have been similarly very fortunate, but we'll find out in a few weeks. Yeah. Let's not talk about that right now.
00:40:03
Speaker
Shall we have another question? Yep. So Firthy3 on Twitter asks, do you think that we will have to get ready for a prolonged period of time in the championship to allow us to rebuild and set stronger foundations for future progression? I sort of already think we are. I think we're there, aren't we? I mean, I think this is a
00:40:24
Speaker
No, we are a well maintained asset rich football club who are in the top 30 infrastructure teams in the league, sorry, in the country. And we have to wait our turn until a combination of dynamic young manager or progressive manager plus
00:40:45
Speaker
two or three, sometimes you get like two or three Johnny Rose in one season at different age ranges where two or three people take a massive leap. That might be enough to take you over the edge. Sometimes you get something like a team who has a ridiculous goal score and run a form out of seemingly nowhere. We have to wait our turn for something. I look at Coventry. Coventry got to the playoff final. Luton got to the playoff final last year.
00:41:06
Speaker
But do you think Coventry and Luton have been building something for a number of seasons? Whereas actually what I think, I think Luton definitely have, I'd say, I know they've been kind of in and out. He fancies them for ages. They're not going to check. And Coventry, in fairness, I think they've been kind of really well run and managed. Oh, I love Robins. Yeah, go on. I'll take Robins. I heard him talking at the weekend and I really liked how, I mean, it's one press conference,
00:41:35
Speaker
But I really liked how, um, I'm trying to think of the best adjective for it. He just seems so matter of fact and so considered. And I guess that he sounded like someone who'd been in post for seven years. You know, he sounded so calm. So like, well, we win some, we lose some, if we can play better than we have done against these recently, then, you know, it was just so measured. And I thought, wouldn't mind that.
00:42:02
Speaker
Is there anyone else? I can't think of this because Mark Robbins used to do Canary Call. Can you think of anyone else that used to do co-coms or Canary Call that has managed at a level, apart from obviously Neil Adams? It's Edgy Anseland, he's done kids football, yeah. Simon Uppin, I think he does like CSF stuff, but that was like Adam Jue. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, CSF stuff. I'm sure our listeners will tell us. I'll tell you who will tell us. Anseland coaching. We've had him on a podcast.
00:42:29
Speaker
But like, I mean, like kind of managerial head coach stuff, like Adrian Forbes, you know, kind of has done some kind of high level stuff as well. Look, Spud listens. He will get in touch. He'll tell us. He will know. Right. Last question. This is from Chris Lacey and he says, this is maybe to your point. When will we all remember that most people thought we would be mid table this season and we are doing just that?
00:42:54
Speaker
Also, let's all support the women's team as they are awesome this season. So I think there's two strands to that. The women's team are awesome this season. They've just gone nine unbeaten. I was at Loftus Road yesterday. They struggled to that result, but they found a way to win that game and that's brilliant. But yeah, there is an element of we all sat here, season previews, saying, yeah, I reckon we're going to be about 10th to 12th. That's where I thought we'd be about 10th.
00:43:21
Speaker
My worry is I think we'll, we might be worse than 10th now because I just think without Sergeant for that long, how, how bad can it get? Cause it's trending downwards. Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to say that there, uh, the trend is protect to your point earlier about a chunk, the chunk of the game where you're playing your best stuff.
00:43:43
Speaker
that there is probably a trend where the portion of the game where we are playing to our best is smaller than it has been. And so there's maybe larger chunks of the game where we're surrendering possession, not necessarily because it's part of a cunning plan, but because actually we can't get the ball off of them. And there was elements of the first half against Coventry that were like that, although we should have had apparently.
00:44:04
Speaker
So yeah, I don't know. Chris has basically made exactly the point that I was making earlier in the pod, which is, this is sort of what I think we're good enough to do at the moment. I don't think we've got, unlike some previous seasons in the championship, I don't think you can go through our team from one to 11 and say he'd walk into any first 11 on many of them. Sarah would get into,
00:44:33
Speaker
most teams, not maybe not on every day because that midfield, you do tend to have some good players in midfield, but, you know, I think you'd walk into any championship side. I think you're doing a disservice there. Well, I was just trying to, I was just trying to be a bit balanced because obviously, you know, we are quite big fans of Norwich, but.
00:44:48
Speaker
Yeah, he would walk into most teams most days. Stacey has shown a remarkably... I mean, he has been really consistent. I think he's had one off day and he's played, you know, most
Conclusion & Future Outlook
00:45:02
Speaker
players. I think he had two or three games recently where his levels dipped. But, you know, look, there's a free sign in what we've got for him, but tremendous. In the championship and not that's costing you goals. And there hasn't been a single game he's played where he hasn't done at least one really creative
00:45:18
Speaker
energetic kind of bomb forward. I think he's way better going forward than he is going back. Yeah. And I think Sergeant, I wouldn't have said this at the end of the summer, but having now seen him sort of unleashed in that pair and having kind of the main main character role that he did at the start of the season, if he was fully fit, then he would be a candidate. Although again, there are other strikers who are very strong in the championship.
00:45:47
Speaker
And then you're sort of starting in Johnny Rowe on current form is going to be right up there with some of the best wide players in the league. Gunn has got a shout to be in the top five or six goal knees.
00:46:00
Speaker
But I mean, that's it. And we have had championship squads where almost one to 11, we can argue we should be in the team of the week every week. Yeah. So let's press the button and start the massive reset. But why? That isn't done at the plate. Players aren't going anywhere. You can't change the players. This is my point. I think you can start that process. You can definitely start that process. To oversee a transitional season where we
00:46:25
Speaker
give ourselves some interest in things to enjoy. It's a shame the cup run finished because that was just about to turn into something interesting. And then, you know, if you, like I say, if he's not doing active harm, I don't think players are getting worse under him. And I think that is a big element. That I would acknowledge. He seems to be getting more out of some players than anyone else has managed.
00:46:48
Speaker
And no, no one is going backwards. And Jeremy and Sarge, I think he's getting more out of than, than we've seen under anyone else. So I think, I think that is fair. Johnny Rowe, I think he's being a bit lucky. I think Johnny Rowe would have done this. He's got a fit Johnny Rowe, like he's burst onto the scene. You know, like, look, Dean Smith saw the potential in, in row and brought him in, you know, kind of in the, in the premier league. And, and I thought he did pretty well actually. And he's kind of bit part, um, start a bit part performances that he had.
00:47:15
Speaker
But I wonder what we're building and I'm not, I may be, you know, kind of now that we aren't performing at the top or towards the top end of the league and we've signed, you know, kind of all of these 30 plus year old players, it's like, okay, so what's next? What's the next step? Because it's fine if you're signing all of those experienced heads and things are going well. But if this is a transitional season, all of those players are a year older.
00:47:39
Speaker
Where are we going next? Is there going to be another three, Johnny Rose? I'm not sure. So are you suggesting, for example, Kevin Fishhead looks like he's going to be in the team very soon? Not if your boy, Jack Stacey, continues to perform at the level that he did. Fish is good enough to play either side. Are you suggesting, then, that we almost need to... OK, let me change this into a question. Would you therefore accept, proactively accept,
00:48:08
Speaker
a project sold to you by Mr. Nappa, that, look, we're going to go for this young up and coming coach who's been running the academy at Arsenal or has been, you know, just thinking that he might go close to home or has been, you know, under 23, he's manager at Roma or whatever, and is just due his first thing. He's got this really exciting way of playing. It's going to take maybe a couple of years to implement it.
00:48:35
Speaker
uh, next year's might be a struggle. We're going to have to offload all of these people. And we, you know, what, what happens when we're then 15th after 12 games next season, because we can see the early shoots, maybe if you squint, but we're still conceding way too many goals. Cause he's got such a young, I'm all in for that. I'm all in for that. Cause then I know what the plan is. But then I can, I can have my opinion and Carol road can have their opinion. And you know, that's, that's fine. That's what football is about.
00:49:04
Speaker
But yeah, I'd be way more up for here's the long-term considered, well, you know, even short to medium term considered plan than what we've got right now. The current iteration of what we are doing just feels like the club is massively in limbo. And, you know, there is an inertia that really worries me and that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. It might be helped by Napa coming in.
00:49:31
Speaker
doing some press. Yeah. If he can articulate, look, Wagner's my man and here's why. Yeah. I might get behind that. I'm going to need to see evidence. I'd be amazed if he doesn't try and do that. I mean, it'd be bonkers to come in and not say it's quite Wagner. Yeah. Give him a lovely vote of confidence and then that'll, that always goes well.
00:49:49
Speaker
All right, well, anyway, thank you for joining me. Thank you for listening to us. We will keep our fingers crossed during the international break that there are no more kind of awful injuries to perform any excellent players. And let's just all keep our fingers crossed that the cryo chamber and the excellent homegrown veg at Colney gets Sergeant back soon, and we think, mind I go.