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"Out With The Old" City 'Til We Die #2
907 Plays11 months ago
City 'Til We Die returns following a Norwich City win... Watch out for the flying pigs! Ben & George return to discuss Stuart Webber's legacy, a legacy which Ben Knapper will have his work cut out in... restoring? complimenting? ignoring? Who knows.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of Norwich City
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome back to Along Come Norwich for episode 2 of City Till We Die. You join myself, Ben Ambrose and George Wilson for an episode of the podcast where there might just be a little dash of optimism but there shall be plenty of criticism and doubting and all these wonderful things we love to do
00:00:20
Speaker
as Norwich City fans. I'd like to firstly say thank you to everyone who listened to the podcast and watched it across YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcast, all those things. For those who don't know who are watching, we're on the podcast platforms, vice versa. For those who are listening, we're also on YouTube. Should you decide you would prefer to watch our lovely faces talk about Norwich City, George.
00:00:41
Speaker
First and foremost, my friend, how are you? Because a lot has happened since
Management Changes: Webber Out, Napper In
00:00:45
Speaker
our last pod. A lot has gone down in the Norwich City sphere. How are you doing, my friend? I'm fairly well, thank you. I think, as you say, a lot has taken place in the, what is it, three weeks since we last spoke, roughly, even though we've only had two games taking place with Weber leaving and Napa coming in. I'm pretty sure when we last recorded, we
00:01:08
Speaker
didn't know Webber was going to be heading off, did we? But it kind of it all escalated at the Blackburn game. I think he made the right call by heading out as he did, and I'm sure we're going to come on to talk about that. But yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm ready to see how the men get on once again this coming weekend, as well as the women's team as well. Big game coming up for them at the weekend. So yeah, a double both in Norwich. Yeah, looking forward to it. Looking forward to this.
00:01:36
Speaker
It is a crazy time at Norwich City at the moment, you rightly touch on there, the women are having a fantastic season and for those who haven't been to go and see a game, make sure you get down to the nest or wherever they're playing, well worth a watch and considerably better in terms of the level of viewing compared to the men's team at the moment. But it's the men's team we'll talk about and I want to roll my eyes, but it's a choice for us to do this, so I shan't do
Evaluating Stuart Webber's Legacy
00:02:01
Speaker
that.
00:02:01
Speaker
Let's touch on Stuart Weber first. I did sort of contemplate this idea of doing a podcast where we go over Stuart Weber, the good, the bad, the David Brent, but I think there's enough content out there by the time I realized that. Yeah, maybe we shouldn't. There's some great content out there, but we will touch on it now before moving on to Ben Napper and
00:02:22
Speaker
the state Nauru City could find themselves in, the state we want them to find themselves in, and the state that we realistically think they could find themselves in. But as I said, we'll start with Stuart Weber. George, this word legacy was used throughout his Nauru City tenure. Of course, he's no longer employed by Nauru City. It's now Ben Mapper. This word legacy was used, and he always painted this picture of, I want to leave Nauru City with
00:02:49
Speaker
legacy in place and this legacy that he has left behind him because my goodness it's a legacy all right what do you make of that in terms of that that broad question because of course we'll go into the finer details but when you think of Stuart Weber as a man who has just left our football club and and the six years he spent here how do you sort of reflect on that?
00:03:12
Speaker
I think for definite it's a mixed bag is how I would first of all describe it. It feels as if having read through his, it wasn't a statement was it? It was a message as he departed.
00:03:27
Speaker
I feel like he mentioned a lot of times in the training ground and a lot of it often comes back to the training ground. And I think, yeah, fair enough. It's great that we've got a training ground there that attracts players and that they come and see it and they think, wow, but I think really, 90% or more than 90% of Norwich fans are never going to see inside that training ground.
00:03:55
Speaker
It kind of frustrates me a little bit that it always comes back to that. In terms of the general legacy, I said they're mixed bag. We're always going to remember the high points, you know, going back to Villa Park the day we won the title.
00:04:11
Speaker
there the first title under Farka but my memory of that day I will always remember the fact that Webber was down there on the pitch and he was part of that and you know everyone at that time was singing his praises I think in terms of the negative side of it I mean I've written down here because you kind of teed up that we were going to be discussing it I think
00:04:33
Speaker
the first big mistake that he made isn't so much the signings that were made in that second Premier League season. Because I think when the signings were made, I can remember at the end of that August summer transfer window, there were graphics being posted everywhere. And just generally Norwich fans saying, look at all these signings we've made. What a window it's been.
00:05:02
Speaker
Okay, so many of those went wrong, but I think where he went really wrong was not really having
00:05:09
Speaker
any plan in place when he got rid of Daniel Farka. I personally think it was the right decision to get rid of him, but the fact that we then saw Dean Smith come in the following week, even though Smith had been in a job the night Farka was sacked, that was immediately the signal that there wasn't a plan for when Farka went. And it always felt like up until that point
00:05:33
Speaker
Everything that Norwich were doing had some sort of plan behind it. Of course, there's going to be a mix of that. You're going to have to work, act with your feet kind of thing and, you know,
Impact of Managerial Changes on Team Strategy
00:05:46
Speaker
work quickly in the job that he's in but it felt like to me up until that point and of course it's easy in hindsight because we're looking back on this in general but I feel like that was kind of the key point and kind of since then we haven't really had anything overridingly positive to discuss but yeah it's a mixed bag in answer to your question that's kind of how I see it in terms of when it changed from positive to negative.
00:06:12
Speaker
I find it a tricky one with Shoe Eberbach. I think you've defined it well there in terms of this idea that you can almost see that little bookmark, can't you, of where things started to turn before the sacking of Daniel Farkett. You're absolutely spot on. Everything felt really planned and organized. And there is a narrative that has been pushed slightly by certain journalists, which is, well, all the second half, we'll call it, of his Norwich City tenure was things bubbling.
00:06:41
Speaker
you know over that had been bubbling away for a certain while for me as fans who don't see the inner workings nor particularly care to see the inner workings i don't think that's the narrative we should push so i'm going to try and stay away from that but it's very clear that change that happened and everything as you said
00:06:59
Speaker
basically fell apart, didn't it? Norwich became very reactive to situations and really poorly and I'd completely forgotten. I know Dean Smith was not long out of a job, but I completely forgotten that on the night of Farkasacking he was still in a job, which
00:07:13
Speaker
the time felt bizarre but as we always try to do as football fans as is our job to you try and put that positive spin on it of well his mind is still in the game he's not been on holiday and he's got loads of experience and blah blah blah all of that all of these sort of in retrospect excuses you make for what was I don't think a very good appointment same for David Wagner we could talk about that for days but the thing with Stuart Weber is
00:07:37
Speaker
It's easy to sort of pick out the training ground. We'll never see that. And I completely agree. But Norwich City, from my perspective, are in a better place than where they were when he picked us up. But I don't really, I don't think we're in that much of a better place in the sense of what was the squad and the club that he inherited from the previous
00:08:04
Speaker
folk, we shall say. It was an aging squad, a rapidly aging squad, some really silly contracts, sort of just floating around Cara Rone in terms of playing personnel. It was a team without a style, without a purpose really, a team that felt very entitled to be in the Premier League without any real reason.
00:08:28
Speaker
And this is being used as a stick to beat Stuart Weber with, which I'm going to continue to do so because I think it's a very fair point. But you look at the squad now and it's quite old. It feels very entitled to be in the Premier League, especially with the signings they made. It absolutely stinks of a, well, we can walk it with these experienced players and some
00:08:47
Speaker
not so sensible contracts you know you look at players like Shane Duffy who have been given more than a year and it's like it really backs up this point of everything was thrown out of the window which Connor makes his point quite often about his tutor but which is he was good at sort of dragging the club from A to B but then when he got to B
00:09:11
Speaker
then just sort of went back to A and it's a bit like you can go backwards and forwards and and if Stuart Weber had left Norwich City at the time that he foreshadowed at the beginning of his tenure which was I'll basically I'll do three years then be gone and he you know maintained that message for a while didn't he I don't really know at what point the narrative changed but he ended up being here for for over six years it's a bit like oh if you'd left after three mate I think you'd have been viewed as
00:09:38
Speaker
you know to be hyperbolic but god in a way in the sense if you you came to this football club you changed the culture you improved the facilities and you could have gone on to better things um you know i believe this idea that he had premier league offers
00:09:54
Speaker
in terms of bigger clubs but you didn't and I keep hearing this quote misquoted which is you live long enough, no what was it, the beautiful irony of that being you live long enough to see yourself become the hero or
00:10:11
Speaker
become the villain, I don't know. The irony of me saying misquoted and then misquoting myself is truly beautiful. But like, it's absolutely spot on. And in that period, you sprinkle in a lot of personality.
00:10:26
Speaker
My thing in terms of consistency with Stuart Weber is that it always felt very honest. It felt like him. It never felt like a front. This PR that he had, this personality. But there was a lot of unnecessary things sort of thrown in there. And it's a bit like, oh, come on,
Webber's Controversial Departure
00:10:43
Speaker
mate. You didn't need to talk about what was it that he said, like divorcees in the snake pit. It's a bit like, okay, you're talking to a minority of the fans, but
00:10:54
Speaker
Like, I'm not a divorcee in the snake pit. I'm looking at that comment going...
00:10:59
Speaker
That's just unnecessarily harsh. And if you are sitting in the snake pit, you're probably thinking, this guy is an absolute idiot. And it's things like that which chipped away over time in terms of that relationship between him and the fans. And ultimately, in my opinion, led to the fact that he didn't feel the urge or didn't feel like he could. I don't know. I'm not inside of his brain. But to go over and show some, I don't know, anything to the away fans when he got that guard of honor against Cardiff.
00:11:28
Speaker
that really sums it up for me and it's just it's such a fascinating period of Norwich City's history and it's nice that there are those positive moments there are those memories and thank you very much for those but I've never felt more ready to move on. I remember three years ago being like oh my god I hope he never leaves.
00:11:48
Speaker
now we're like thank god he's gone that really does and i feel like that only you know this thing would only happen at Norwich City which is just it's just mental the last thing George i want to speak about when it comes to Stuart Weber is
00:12:00
Speaker
What is your opinion on him not going over and doing anything to the fans? Do you think it's sad in the sense of, oh, well, you know, he had had a chance previously of We Want Weberite, that kind of stuff? Or do you think it's very much a case of, well, Stu, you made your bed and you had to lay in it. What's your take on it? I mean, I wasn't there in the away end, so I can't
00:12:26
Speaker
I can't say how it must have felt, because when I've seen clips back of it, I kind of think, what must this be looking like from the away? And if they've just celebrated it with the players, if you see that across from the stadium, they could probably make out that it was Stuart Weber, but they were probably wondering, is he coming over it? I don't blame Weber for keeping his distance, because like you said there, the way it turned at Blackburn was not pleasant.
00:12:56
Speaker
you know, I don't, I don't envy him that I think I could see why it boiled over like it did. Is it sad that that ended like that? It probably is because it did. There was a time that what do we have there were t shirts being made with with his face on it weren't there. But that is kind of just
00:13:20
Speaker
the way these things work, isn't it? But yeah, I don't feel any particular sadness. I'm with you in that it feels refreshing to have someone else at the top who is making the calls. And it's interesting what you said about the comments he made in certain interviews, which always felt like,
00:13:46
Speaker
always felt crazy because he was never, he was never prompted to talk about the, the things that, you know, got in the headlines like the, you mentioned the snake bit divorcees, not to keep referring back to the women's team, but the comment he made about the, the standard of the women's team or the women's game, whatever he said, he was quite simply asked about, you know, I think the question was,
00:14:11
Speaker
how pleasing is that for the club to have that kind of thing taking place and suddenly goes off in that direction. So I think he didn't help himself in that regard, but obviously the overall last couple of years with results deteriorating and like you mentioned there, the aging squad, et cetera, it's all kind of come together to result in that ending. So now I don't feel too much sadness about it.
00:14:38
Speaker
I feel it my duty to also mention we aren't going to talk about the mountain climbing. That is of no interest to us. We know it's a hot topic at the best of times, but nope, not for us. Thank you very much. I think one big thing to finish on, but like I've said three or four times, is
00:14:57
Speaker
that attitude he took was I think at the best of times almost felt brave in the sense of oh wow look how humble this guy is but as things went wrong continued to go wrong it then very quickly became arrogance and it became disrespectful
00:15:17
Speaker
And it didn't maintain that same value that it had when Norwich were being successful by our own definition. And yeah, it's a really bizarre one. And Ben Nappa will be fully aware of what Stuart Weber is like, because, you know, unless he's like, got the same due diligence level of the current Norwich city lot, he would have done his research. He would have looked at his persona and what he said, because he'll be fully aware
00:15:43
Speaker
the questions that Stuart Webber was being asked will now be asked of him. And because it's not Stuart Webber, people will expect a different answer in terms of the actual answer, a different answer in terms of tone and different future projections, all those things. And Ben Nappa will be what he is essentially mopping up what Stuart Webber has left behind, which is such a
00:16:04
Speaker
fascinating thing and the quote is you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain I can't believe that I fluffed that that was just insane it has yeah and I thought it just in case we get a comment where I've given it the billy I've given it the birdie I thought okay right well we'll get that right but like all Norris City fans should do we'll look forward and
00:16:28
Speaker
I do wish it was very much the same case as when Stewart Weather came in, which is almost basically, you're in May and you've got a summer to get things in place. I wish it was that because the tone of our conversation could have been a lot lighter, but we are quite deep into a season now. For a season, for me, that has felt like it's just flown by really quickly.
00:16:55
Speaker
But Ben Nappa comes in with a different outlook. A great CV, by the way, from the research I've done and the comments you guys made, you and Connor made on the last podcast. But we are quite deep into a season. We're being led by a manager who, unless your opinion has changed, George, we don't want in the football club for whatever reason, which we'll talk about now. But looking forward,
00:17:22
Speaker
How do you do it? How do you try and pluck out the positives, but keep your feet on the ground? Do you, I don't know, put your blinkers on and go, we can't look behind us?
Ben Napper's Role and Expectations
00:17:33
Speaker
Well, in my opinion, it's a bit of both, but as a fan, George, you're out look at the moment. How do you try and perceive things?
00:17:43
Speaker
I think first of all, on Napa, I mean, I think a lot of Norris City fans with any interest or every Norris City fan with any interest would have watched the initial video we've had with him on the club channels. I'm personally disappointed at this point that he still hasn't been put in front of Conor and his local media colleagues, only because
00:18:09
Speaker
there's only so much you can get from a club interview. And in reality, I don't feel like we really got anything from that first one. I know he touched on the football. He expects his coaches to play and that kind of thing. But I think until he's actually asked questions that he hasn't been briefed on previously, we won't really get to see.
00:18:37
Speaker
more about him. I'm not saying I want him to be grilled because he's clearly not in the position where he needs to be grilled because he's only settling in. But yeah, I'm quite disappointed that hasn't happened yet. In terms of the task he's got at hand, I would like to think this first week and a half or so, he spent a lot of time with the likes of Neil Adams and the
00:19:01
Speaker
and the staff who've been there for that period of time. Because even though Neil Adams sat on the stage at Great Yarmouth and defended Wagner and said, I think he said a quote, correct me if I'm wrong, he said something like, maybe we're going to change things on the
00:19:22
Speaker
on the outside now, didn't he, rather than the head coach, which is a quote that has angered a lot of people. But at the same time, they must have been having those discussions in relation to Wagner. I actually think Adams was quite fortunate that he went into that Q&A off the back of a win, because if they'd gone into that off the back of another negative result, the questions could have been even more difficult than they actually were.
00:19:53
Speaker
that's surely got to be the key for Napa if he really has been on the outside, which clearly he has, he's been taking some time off. I think the question now is, he's going to give Wagner time, but how many games does he get? Is this an audition for Wagner? Will he be told you've got until January? Because
00:20:20
Speaker
realistically, these next six weeks up until the Christmas period, you can you can reignite your season or you could lose it. It can be
00:20:33
Speaker
pretty much over by the new year. We've still got 30 games to play, but we're going to go through a lot of games within this next period. So if he's going to go with Wagner throughout that, that's a big risk given the form we've been in. I don't know if I've answered your question there, but that's just a few of my thoughts in terms of what Adams has had to sit through. And I'm just interested to know how that partnership is going to work. But they've got a previous relationship, haven't they? So maybe that will help.
00:21:03
Speaker
difficult thing at the moment is is Norwich are in a position where they need to set a narrative, whether it's tweaking the current one, whether it's starting again, a narrative needs to be set and it I don't know I find it difficult because as you said there is an outpouring of support for for David Wagner and it's a bit like oh my god we have all this
00:21:25
Speaker
background information of what we've seen towards the end of, well I mean for half of last season as well as this season and it's a bit like, hang on a minute, it's not like Wagner's been here since the beginning of the season and he's not been given some great players and this that and the other thing but it's like
00:21:44
Speaker
What are we actually doing? Because you've got 27, well, it's definitely not 27,000 people, but you've got a lot of people who can look at this football team and can diagnose.
Team Performance and Areas for Improvement
00:21:55
Speaker
You've got one of three things. You've got the players and the manager aren't good enough, or you've got the players not being good enough and the manager who is underprepared, or you've got a manager who isn't good enough and players who are underprepared. And my answer is, well, it's a bit of both.
00:22:14
Speaker
But the way they seem to be remedying that situation and the situation, I should say, is that we're sticking with Agner. We're going to give him all this time in the world. And they've really pushed that. I honestly don't think I've ever seen
00:22:27
Speaker
maybe apart from Daniel Farkas first season, but this level of support where David Wagner sat there after the level of performances we've seen over the nearly, I don't know if it has been a year or not since he's been in charge, but no, it hasn't been, is it? Was it Boxing Day, wasn't it? Yeah, it was early January, so we're 10 months in now. Early January. So we're approaching a year. We're getting real close to a year of stuff that isn't very good to watch and isn't very promising.
00:22:55
Speaker
But we're still, we've got David Robin at a press conference going, yeah, but I've got a phone call from, from Delia and Michael saying, you have our full support. And we're all sat there like, what's happening? And I'm getting really, I don't know, I'm getting really, I don't think this is like, particularly used as like a reason to keep Wagner, but I'm getting really bored of people talking about what a nice bloke he is. Cause he seems like a nice bloke, cool. But,
00:23:22
Speaker
And then he doesn't deserve any malicious chance. But it's very rare that a football manager, as a human being, deserves that kind of chanting. But he is nowhere near good enough at what he does. And we've seen that from my perspective as someone who isn't particularly analytical to the level of, and I'll always reference him, NCFC analysis, where he has sat there and picked apart the flaws in his plan. And it's like,
00:23:47
Speaker
come on guys you've got people like me you've got people like him we're all Norwich City fans we can all see this isn't working but we seem to keep being behind it and and this win against Cardiff was such a i don't think anyone was at all convinced it's the first time Norwich City have won a game
00:24:04
Speaker
And it's like, no one is convinced at all. We've all sort of been a bit like, well, yeah, we were all right, but let's not ignore the last 10, 11 months of what's been going on. And the fact that Narrow City find themselves in the state where the guy who's been basically running the football club for the last six years doesn't even come over and acknowledge fans who haven't just made an away trip, but an away trip to Cardiff. And it's just like, what is going on?
00:24:30
Speaker
I think something you said there almost unintentionally, but it kind of sums it up and it's worrying that this hasn't been recognized enough clearly by the board and those at the top.
Fan Engagement and Attendance Issues
00:24:44
Speaker
But you said 27,000 people and then you remembered, oh no, there's nowhere near 27,000 people. I mean, I was there for the first half an hour of the Blackburn game before I headed off for the nest.
00:25:00
Speaker
and you looked around that ground and the number of empty seats. I don't actually know the attendance that was written there, but
00:25:09
Speaker
People are now voting with their feet at Carrow Road as well as away from home. And yeah, that isn't something that we've become accustomed to at all. And they must be including season tickets in the capacity, which is something I know Arsenal have done in previous years as well.
00:25:34
Speaker
They're surely opening their eyes and seeing that, because Delia and Michael must have been at most, if not all, of the home games. You can't ignore that. The seats are yellow. You can't miss them. They are there. And until something more drastic changes, I think that's going to be the same. I think it'll be the same at QPR on Saturday. OK, web is gone. But still, people are looking at the product they're getting, and they're thinking
00:26:02
Speaker
Let's go and do something else with our Saturday afternoons. Yeah, I just think the attendance is surely a big worry because for so many years there's been talk in the background about building onto the city stand, getting a bigger capacity. We're a million miles off that right now. Sure it can change quickly, but what is going on with that?
00:26:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me it's more almost the metaphor behind that in the sense of my, you know, I was there, admittedly I was very young and I don't really remember it that much because I walked into a lamppost before that game, but I was there when Norwich lost to Colchester. Sincerely wish I wanted for that lamppost after the game. I feel fortunate I wasn't there actually. I was on holiday and I was told at half time it was 5-0 and I said no it isn't and went inside, but no, it really is 5-0.
00:26:58
Speaker
Imagine being there, George. That's all I've got to say. Goodness me. I think that's a lot.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, I've never left a game early. That's a blessing and a curse. Me and my dad just like, I mean, at this point, I've just gone a random tangent. At this point, Norwich City season ticket to me, it's just a bit of bonding time with my dad. And I mean, it was that day, because I think by sort of four, by any time Michael Theoknotos went to catch the ball, we were just laughing and having fun. Obviously, what followed was fantastic.
00:27:29
Speaker
his only appearance and i heard a story that before the game when they were like you know how before the game they like sign stuff and take photos apparently he was like shaking like a leaf and was just very nervous which was really reflected in his performance but like back to the back to the point which was
00:27:47
Speaker
the extension of the stadium, it's not something we'll get into because it's all very political and I don't care to speak of something where there isn't really concrete facts. But in my brain, I was always thinking, well, Norwich would fill that no issue because Norwich City are always selling out season tickets. I know loads of people who have been waiting for a season ticket for ages,
00:28:11
Speaker
And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, now's your chance. Um, but it's like, I'm actually at a point now where you get to Caro and I'm at stay. And it's like, well, hang on a minute. This isn't as full as what it used to been, you know, not to blow things too out of proportion. It's not like, you know, leads when they weren't in the Premier League where they could barely fill half the stadium.
00:28:30
Speaker
it's very noticeable and I think complacency has always been a thing there where nourished and the board and to an extent I don't think it'll ever get too bad but like you just expect the fans to show up and it's a bit like okay cool yeah but it's very noticeable on a match then and the blackbird game you notice how many people left and that word apathy was such a such a key one after that first goal went in we were all like all right
00:28:52
Speaker
second moment there was a bit of outrage because there was that when that first one went in that the rage began to sort of boil it's like someone flipped on the kettle and there's the second goal scored it was at the screaming point where everyone was like oh my god here we go again but complacency is such a such an issue and has been an issue i think that's what again one of the narratives that has been pushed in terms of an executive level at at nourish city and what's my other point i can't remember what my other point was now i'm very sure it'll come back to me
00:29:21
Speaker
But, oh, that was it. It was to do with Neil Adams and the thing you mentioned, which was this idea of looking around the edges or around the sides or edges, whatever he said, before making that rash decision. And it's like, okay, it's great that you're doing that. And I get the idea that you're perhaps trying to nudge that narrative on a path of caution and look, we're going to make sensible decisions again, informed decisions even. But it's like,
00:29:48
Speaker
Oh man, that came at the expense of losing Daniel Farka and by no means do I sit here and think, oh, I wish we'd never sack Daniel Farka. It's just a bit like, it's such a big and tough lesson to learn. Why did it have to be at the expense of someone who is proving to be still a very good coach? So yeah, it's a tough one to be positive, isn't it, George?
00:30:14
Speaker
I keep saying butt-like a lot. That happens when I go on a rant and it's difficult to not rant about Norwich at the moment and I did set the task for us to sprinkle in some positivity so we'll try and do that before we call time. Any thoughts on that at all, George? I see you go to speak sometimes and I just feel awful because I'm like, I've got to get it all out because that's the way, you know, you've got to get it all off your chest, haven't you?
00:30:41
Speaker
No, you have. I just think it's interesting on attendances because I've always kind of said or had a go at my Ipswich mates for how rubbish theirs have been in recent years. And, you know, you mentioned there how we'll always sell out and I've
00:31:01
Speaker
Yeah, I've never really thought that it's gonna be, that it would go the way it has, but yeah, it seems to have flipped so quickly. Like I say, I'm not saying it is over this season, because we've got 30 games to go and football can change quickly. And if we're talking about positives, I couldn't believe, or I suppose I was surprised when I looked after the Cardiff game,
00:31:29
Speaker
Ipswich you've got the best attacking record in the league and then underneath that Norris City a joint with Leicester the second best
00:31:39
Speaker
Attacking record in the league after 16 games. So, you know, we don't need to go over how poor we are defensively We don't we don't really need to be we don't need to be brilliant defensively. We just need to Cut out the goals. We're conceding every day and we could be a quite capable team So I I don't know how far off we actually are but while you're shipping two three, you know in the last Four games we've conceded ten goals while you're conceding at that rate and just
00:32:09
Speaker
You can't pick out the positives because conceding goals at that rate is just not sustainable. But that's what I mean. If we could sort that out, we could be on to something, particularly with bonds coming back from injury, et cetera. This is me attempting to try and steer us towards positivity. I know we want to mention George Long possibly in a bit as well. But yeah.
00:32:35
Speaker
We're not miles off. It does feel a bit like it, but maybe something can turn soon. I hope it does. Yeah, I think for those who are listening or watching it have gone, why don't I talk about George Long? Give us a minute and we'll get there and you'll understand. Because we spoke about it pre-pod and we were a bit like, oh, man, we've got to mention George Long, which is just, well, it's not funny, but it is actually quite funny at the same time. But what encapsulates for me this narrative with Norwich at the moment is that
00:33:06
Speaker
We are a Norwich City podcast, we talk about all things Norwich City, but we aren't fast to talk about a win. We must look at it as like a, oh yeah, but that doesn't matter. And to be in a position where when you're talking about your football club, that you can just ignore a win. Obviously we haven't completely ignored it, but it's
00:33:25
Speaker
It's mental. It's mental, that nourish that you find themselves in a position where people like me and you can look at a winner's, oh, yeah, but it doesn't really mean much, does it? And you're absolutely right. And let's get into the positivity before we cap it off with talking about George Long. But let's try and be a bit more positive. I think you're absolutely spot on. I don't think the football at the beginning of the season was a fluke by any means.
00:33:47
Speaker
there's evidence that Norwich City can create some good football and none of the goals really have been a fluke or particularly undeserved. On the front foot when they want to be, this Norwich City squad, whatever you think of them, are really capable and can produce and yield some really aesthetically pleasing results and obviously we saw that at the beginning of the season and despite shipping all of these goals we can still score.
00:34:12
Speaker
And as you said, if we can cut out the silly errors, if we can do this, if we can do that, we're now at a point with the manager where that if is, if we get someone different. Because there is that debate of, well, you've still got the same squad of players, but evidence suggests that squad of players are massively underachieving. And you're absolutely right, the squad will stay the same.
00:34:40
Speaker
but with a different manager you can get a little bit more out but also with a different manager at any point of this season you're preparing for next season and again let's keep the blinkers on and look at this season and not look too far forward but this season can still be a success for Norwich it's up to us to redefine as fans it's up to them as a football club to redefine and
Redefining Success and Sustainable Strategy
00:35:05
Speaker
almost not rip up the previous narrative but set this new narrative of what success means to us for me it's to begin playing a defined style of football that fans believe in but also that players believe in with the promise that recruitment will be structured around supporting that because that's what we had wasn't it with with Daniel Farquhar where Ben Napper's job
00:35:31
Speaker
is it's not easier but where he will have that inspiration is what Stuart Weber did when he got here which was he brought in a manager with a defined style and it was not just that it was a style that you know could have and should have been sustainable
00:35:47
Speaker
A manager who clearly wanted to be here, wasn't Dean Smith on the rebrand, isn't David Wagner trying to save his own career?
00:36:03
Speaker
But that element of personality will be important as well as this promise of we're going to develop players, we're going to sign young players, we're going to look afar. Obviously back then it was the second tier of German football and we're all well aware and very familiar with this Brexit implication of well, second tiers in Europe aren't the most viable now.
00:36:25
Speaker
But there is a remedy there of South America, and we've seen Gabri Sara, we've seen what, you know, to a degree, Nunez can do. So it's a bit like, well, hang on a minute. I said this on the last part. The blueprint is there. It's just about how you achieve that. And this is information I got from Connor, you know, via that podcast, which is Ben Napper as an individual is more data orientated. Stuart Weber wasn't.
00:36:50
Speaker
And that's a fresh outlook. That's a fresh input that this football club needs. And what I've gathered from, you know, much like to anyone listening to this, Norwich's approach is more so inspired by data and this business input that the Atanasios have had. And sure, okay, look, they've got a big checkbook and for what it's worth, they aren't going to be signing an endless amount of blank checks. But it's like,
00:37:16
Speaker
they have a very valuable input in terms of operational side of things, and this idea of, well, data is very important. But I can't remember what podcast it was now. I think it was Stewart. I think it was Stewart represented with The Pink and after last season, where he basically said, data-wise, these guys are fantastic, but facilities, they're nowhere near where we are. And great, facilities-wise, we're fantastic, but let's bring in that fresh input. I'm not just going to say data, even though it is that, but let's bring in that fresh input and
00:37:46
Speaker
things like that, you know, the little rant I've been on there, things like that really make me feel a bit more like, okay, there's something for us to believe in. It's just, you do need to see it short term. And the fact that we're going to get to January, and we aren't going to spend any money, we aren't going to sign any plans, because we saw, and I can't believe we didn't mention it, we saw that whopping great loan repayment needed. It's like, oh my God, okay, that's fine. But
00:38:14
Speaker
we can still see, based off what we have, signs of success. Now, for example, right, George, don't have you thought about this before? But imagine being Sam McCallum. So, okay, you're never playing because of Janoulis anyway, sure. But when Janoulis is out of form, they throw the Perketter in. Yeah, on the left footed left back, he's quite athletic. I don't think he's technically very good, but as a second choice, meh. You are seeing
00:38:43
Speaker
I mean, after that Cardiff game, one of the worst... Mental, absolutely mental. You're seeing a footballer who isn't good enough in his own position, nowhere near good enough. Sorry, Shemy, if you're watching, Pepe, whatever they call him, but he is nowhere near good enough technically. He's quite quick, but as a winger, sorry, at the best of times is what I'm getting at, but as a left-back,
00:39:13
Speaker
my goodness absolutely woeful and that decision rests on on David Wagner and it's a bit like oh man and and the fact that you know we're we sat here praying for Danny Bart as I said in the last part I really didn't have that on my neurotic bingo card for this season but it's things like that that undercut that bit of positivity and George before we move on to your fellow George any input on that
00:39:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned McCallum. Since you've just referenced him there, I'm trying to think. He came in in a January window, didn't he? But I can't think exactly which one it is. And then he was loaned back. But it feels like he's a player who's been at the club for
00:39:58
Speaker
fair chunk of time now. And we've still never really seen this promise that was supposed to be there. I think you could also talk about
00:40:11
Speaker
Jakob Sorensen in the same light. Admittedly, he's probably had a bit more game time while also having a bit of disruption this season with injury. But he's a player who's been at the club since, well, 2021. So we're now talking, well, no, 2020 he came in, because he was in the team for the second Farka promotion. And he's never been someone you would class as a first choice starter.
00:40:41
Speaker
Again, maybe we could go back into Weber's recruitment on this. We're not going to do that. But I do think it's interesting that we have got those players who have never made that impact, but are still there as the squad players.
Challenges in Player Development
00:40:59
Speaker
We don't need to go into the low knees that have gone out, come back in, and are now back in the squad. But it comes back to the idea of the dross that is in the squad.
00:41:10
Speaker
I think the starting 11 that we've got is really good. As it proved at the start of the season, I'm really worried about what Wagner is going to tell us about John Rowe on Thursday. Hopefully, if he's going to miss a game, let it only be the QPR one and maybe Watford. I mean, ideally, no games at all.
00:41:36
Speaker
Yeah, the depth isn't there. Yeah, I think you make a good point by raising McCallum because there are a lot of those players. Do you know what? Again, for me, it's a human level of this. Well, hang on a minute, you have got this professional footballer who just is needlessly sitting on the bench and it's almost a waste of resources. And by no means am I sat here thinking, oh, we can develop Sam McCallum into something Premier League worthy.
00:42:01
Speaker
which for me should be the goal for most, well, every single young signing that we make. And it's all right to get something wrong. Jacob Sorensen is an example for me of a signing that I'm okay with not particularly blossoming into anything because we tried something. It's just that
00:42:17
Speaker
when you look at that first championship-winning season where you had your Felix Paslak who came into the club with a bit of expectation but it turned into nothing, you then had Max Aarons behind him to take that place and you had Emmy Puendia coming in to replace Ben Marshall as a signing because Ben Marshall was signed as a winger, wasn't he? And it's a bit like over these past three years,
00:42:41
Speaker
or sorry, before the Webbers first three years, you had this balance, didn't you, of terrible signings, but great signings, that the volume was much greater on this side, but on this side, you had Tim Kroll, Tim Mupuki, Emmie Buendia, so it balanced. Who performed so well that they were...
00:43:00
Speaker
levelling out with the great numbers. Exactly, exactly. And for such little resource as well, and let's not pretend it's peanuts because it's football, it's a lot of money, but also things very quickly went whoop, just like that. And for those listening, I'm performing the action of a scale, which I'm sure George will tell you was a wonderful motion there.
00:43:22
Speaker
Thank you very much. I should do it professionally, but I tend not to. But it's like, how do we get to this position? And there's a lot of factors, isn't there, where people have said, well, Kieran Scott, again, Chief Scout at Norwich, was used as an example. Who was it, Greg Broughton or something? A lot of his players during his tenure at Norwich.
00:43:45
Speaker
What was his list? It was like Max Orange, Jamal Lewis, Ben Godfrey, that lot, essentially. People are picking out these names and going, well, actually, Weber wasn't responsible, it was this guy, and it was this guy, and it was this guy, and it's a bit like, oh my God, this just complicates matters even more for people who don't live and breathe Norah City niche names as well, and it just adds an extra layer of ooh,
00:44:10
Speaker
whether it wasn't that great in the grand scheme of things, it's impossible to comment on with any sort of real, I don't know, you know what I mean? But it is a shame though, because in five years to come, because people will hold grudges against Weber, they'll be coming back to things like that, when really, we should just try and shelve it and say, you know, we had a couple of brilliant seasons, we also had a couple of disasters, and just try and move on.
00:44:40
Speaker
That's kind of life. That's not just football. People are always going to go back to that stuff. But yeah, we've covered a lot there.
00:44:49
Speaker
We have. It's an interesting one, as I keep saying, because I tell you what, for those listening, if you're wondering why I keep saying it's an interesting one, it's because I have to stop myself from saying something really reckless. I go, if I say it's an interesting one, then I can have an extra second to think about what I'm going to say. So that's all that is. Talking about reckless. What about George Locke? Talking about reckless. There's a few words. Maybe reckless isn't quite right. The signing was reckless, I think.
00:45:16
Speaker
The signing was Yeah, it's a bit like it was for maybe not so much Shane Duffy, but like most of these free signings It was a bit like oh, well, he's free. So it's very low-risk high reward but George Long like I Don't I don't like that we're doing this But also he's just not very good. He's just really bad
00:45:42
Speaker
I can't, I don't feel safe. I mean, I don't feel safe at the best of times defensively, but this idea that when you had Angus Gunn, you could almost sit there and think, I trust the goalie to pull off a big save. And if it, you know, if he doesn't save it, then there'll be a valid reason, which, you know, that's not, you know, that's not paint a completely golden picture for Angus Gunn. He's had a couple of mistakes, but goalies do. With George Long, for you, George, are you sat there just like,
00:46:09
Speaker
just get out of the way and let it go in. Just sort of do that. It does feel a little bit like that. I think the reason I mentioned this to you before we started recording it, just that I wanted to mention it, is because when a signing of a backup keeper is made and it happened with this one,
00:46:30
Speaker
you read certain comments from Millwall supporters that I've actually got a Millwall supporting mate who I went to uni with and I sent him a message saying what's he like and I think he said something like oh I'll drive him to Norwich myself if you want you know that kind of off the cuff comment but I think when you're signing a backup goalkeeper you don't worry about it until
00:46:52
Speaker
Angus gets injured, do you? It's just because when it's signed, you think Angus Gunn has been at the club. Well, he had his first spell and now he's had two years since re-signing. He's never really. Well, he might have had one injury when he when he'd come in for cruel and went out and then cruel came back in, but he doesn't strike with someone he's likely to get injured. So you don't worry about it until it comes. And don't get me wrong,
00:47:20
Speaker
Angus hadn't had a brilliant season. I think he had a shocker at Plymouth when everything that came out and went through him. That doesn't mean I was at any point saying we need to change it, but yeah, I just don't have
00:47:35
Speaker
any confidence in long whatsoever. I had a look at some stats actually while we were waiting. He came in at half time against Leeds, so I didn't find any, not half time, just before half time, I didn't find any split stats, first half, second half against Leeds, but in the four games he started since Leeds,
00:47:57
Speaker
So Barra, we conceded eight shots on target. Sunderland, we conceded nine. Blackburn, four. Cardiff, six. So that's 27 shots on target across the four games. We conceded 10 goals in those four games. So for every three shots on target we conceded, we conceded a goal, which I don't know whether I thought it would be a worse ratio than that. But yeah, I just,
00:48:28
Speaker
I don't have any confidence in him, ultimately, and I really hope Gunny is back fairly soon, or very soon, this Saturday, ideally.
Concerns with Goalkeeper George Long
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's unfortunate for us to perform a drive-by like that on him, but I think he's put on. I think he absolutely put on, and you raised a good point, didn't you, about us playing Ipswich and this idea of
00:48:51
Speaker
There's just an extra layer of worry for that game. This idea that you haven't got a Tim Krul to bail you out with a massive save, like a massive penalty save. You haven't got him to bail you out. You haven't got Angus Gunn, who has done some harm, but has done far more good. A lot like Tim Krul in my opinion. You know, it had the odd howler. Plymouth is a great example for Gunn as a bad game.
00:49:15
Speaker
for every bad game he'll have five six seven eight very good games where he has saved his points he's just not a particularly vocal goalkeeper which is why
00:49:25
Speaker
he'll never play for England, well, he never played for England, and why he'll play for Scotland, ha ha, very funny. But it's just, there are so many layers, you know, that East England derby especially, where it's like, oh my God, we're a bit, you know. And yeah, I don't think, if Gunny's in for the derby, I don't think that means, you know, we suddenly go from losing it to winning it. I think we're in for a struggle, whatever, I just think. One less thing to worry about. Yeah, I just think with longing goal, it could,
00:49:56
Speaker
get horribly ugly for us. Like I said, maybe I'm being harsh. I haven't seen all four of the games that he started in their entirety but just I haven't seen him make enough saves and there's been shots that have gone through. The one I immediately think back to in my head is the third Leeds goal at Carrow Road when he didn't really dive for it. It kind of just
00:50:24
Speaker
he just went past his left knee and he just kind of stood there outstretched. Again, he might have died for it and not got there, but there's still kind of things you expect. Was that the Somerville one? Yeah, so he raced away with his right foot bent in the bottom right corner.
00:50:42
Speaker
Yeah, the second goal as well. I don't know if you remember that. I think it's, you know, it's hard to, it's, do you know what, I keep saying it's boggling my mind that like, we sat here picking out George Long, but again, we're spot on with what we say. That second goal, where it was drilled across and went basically through him to hit Duffy and go in. Also, I remember when he came on, I turned to my dad and you're spot on with what you said about what normal fans said on social media. I turned to my dad and literally went
00:51:06
Speaker
Millwall fans didn't like this guy at all. I think he played, what was it, 37 games last season for them. He was their number one, wasn't he? Yeah, but yeah, they really don't like it. Yeah, it's not... it's just... You're right though, because we could also pick on a lot of the
00:51:26
Speaker
defensive players and go through all of Gibson and Duffy's howlers. And, you know, maybe if Long was watching this, he'd say, yeah, go on, do that as well. Make me feel better. We're not going to do that. I just think.
00:51:43
Speaker
It has been something that has contributed to the recent results that maybe hasn't been mentioned that much. Although I have seen people on social media mention it because it has been there for you to see. It's almost a running joke now, isn't it? This idea of like, when is George Long going to make a save? And I think he's made a couple, but it is almost a running joke at this point. And hopefully it doesn't get too malicious is what we'll say, but not great at all.
00:52:12
Speaker
No. In terms of looking forward then, George, Norwich City play is a QPR next. QPR, a club from the outside in Desiree, the whole Gareth Ainsworth tenure, again, from the outside, was watching it was fascinating because you had a guy who did a great job at Wicom, but for me it was very quick and we've seen it in football before, haven't we?
00:52:40
Speaker
was very quickly exploited as not being anywhere near good enough for the level that he stepped up to. I felt like Nathan Jones moving, didn't it? Similar to that. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt. In my brain, I was very quickly trying to think, who can I compare that to? And Nathan Jones is a fantastic example.
00:53:05
Speaker
I don't know. Are we saying QPR are going to have a bounce? Not a new bounce. I don't know if they've... I think they have appointed someone, haven't they? Is it a Spanish guy? They drew it rather him under the new bounce.
00:53:19
Speaker
guy didn't they? 1-1 I think it was. Are we saying they're going to have a bounce for Carrow Road or are we saying well they're not very good so we should win or are we just saying oh no it's just crap so we don't care what's the angle? I think it's a tricky one to call I would
00:53:41
Speaker
If Norwich hadn't been on the run prior to Cardiff that we've been on, you would immediately be looking at that as a home win, wouldn't you? But yeah, it's hard to say. I think QPR have... Chair is probably the main player and Linden Dykes, I think, while quality-wise,
00:54:03
Speaker
he hasn't got a lot of it. He is a handful just because he's a presence and he chucks himself about and against a really uncomfortable defence, he could have some joy. I'm really not sure. We'll see in terms of John Rowe, how we get on with him. But with the goals that QPR have conceded at will
00:54:31
Speaker
thinking positively again about our attacking record. Maybe it's a case of we concede a couple, but dare I say it, score three. I don't know. That's me looking at it with a positive outlook. But I certainly wouldn't be putting much money on us to win based on recent results.
00:54:52
Speaker
So, and I think this will help shape the not so distant future. It will help shape our content to a degree in the sense of how are you now gonna look at Norwich City? So for example, say we do this again in two weeks time and Norwich have put in a Cardiff performance and one, three, two again.
00:55:18
Speaker
Are we, I don't know, will your mind, again, we're speaking before the event, but are you going to sort of look to go back to, especially with the stuff happening behind the scenes and Ben Napper, et cetera, are we going to go back to focusing fully on performances and David Wagner, or is it always going to be in the back of your mind that
Napper's Vision and Future Decisions
00:55:42
Speaker
Yeah, he's going to go. It's just about when you pull the trigger. Does he almost have, because you mentioned the word audition early, didn't you, in terms of is this now an audition for David Wagner, for Ben Nappa, which I think is, how do you view looking at the next few weeks? What are you going to be looking for, really? Well, you mentioned the audition there. I think it's also kind of
00:56:06
Speaker
not so much an audition, but it's Napper's chance to present himself to the fans. Okay, we've seen an interview, but we're gonna need to hear more from him and his decision-making. You mentioned about, he mentioned about his playing style and I think he said,
00:56:31
Speaker
possession with high intensity, didn't he? And we know that Wagner maybe possession isn't as high on his priority list as it would have been for a Daniel Farker, so it's about
00:56:45
Speaker
Nappa deciding about that as well. I'm sure he will have names in mind because if we lose at Carrow Road again on Saturday, everyone knows how many poor results QPR have had. So if they were to come and turn us over, we're back to square one, aren't we? I don't see a situation where
00:57:07
Speaker
Norwich beat QPR, then beat Watford, then beat Bristol City. I don't know how many of those games we're going to win, but I'm not sure I see it changing back to people giving Wagner more of a chance, just because the evidence hasn't been there defensively.
00:57:29
Speaker
that things are going to improve that drastically. Maybe it will with the likes of Barnes coming back in, maybe Angus Gunn, I'm not sure, but they're not the most difficult fixtures coming up, are they? But yeah, I'm not expecting a huge turnaround in results. With this idea that David Wagner has the full support of the board and everyone at Norwich, I think with one last sort of scrape at the barrel,
00:57:59
Speaker
his last and well his final hand is very much Barnes, Sargent and maybe Gunn I don't really know what his take on that whole situation is he's probably like us and just thinking oh god can we have Angus come back nice and soon but his final hand will be
00:58:14
Speaker
Sargent and Barnes and you know maybe like John Rowe perking up a bit more and that kind of stuff but you know he's still playing and is injured so we'll ignore that for now but that really is it because in that fine spell of form when Norwich were fun to watch playing positive football getting good results scoring lots of goals you had Josh Sargent and Ashley Barnes as a pivotal part of that
00:58:41
Speaker
And it's a bit like, you know, as you say, David Wagner's attention isn't on how can we retain the ball and create chances? It's how can we get the ball from here to there as quickly as possible? Obviously, when you, like Daniel Farka did, eventually, it's more so in his first season, when you nail the how can we do it whilst on the ball, you get from here to there very quickly anyway. But from the get go where Norwich are way less afraid than what they used to be to just hoof it forward, where you were aiming for Sargent and Barnes,
00:59:10
Speaker
you're now aiming for whoever's up front that day, which, you know, is most likely to be Adam Ida, you know, as you mentioned to me before, the pilot and actually see, but he scored tonight. And I mean, we can do a whole podcast on Adam Ida alone, which I'm sure at one point we probably will, because he's such a fascinating case study at Norwich City. But, you know, that was my
00:59:34
Speaker
i don't even know if that was positive there or not but that's where i'm at in terms of i think you're absolutely spot on we need to see some more from napper his interview was everything you'd expect from a club one as you said george and yeah nothing unique in there whatsoever was there which no no we shouldn't have it's okay but no exactly and it's okay because the guy is
00:59:58
Speaker
you know like Stuart Weber was and he's in a much more difficult position than Stuart Weber from a PR perspective because Weber was in a new role at the club in the circumstance where everyone was like oh my god we need massive reform and change Napper is coming in
01:00:14
Speaker
where everyone is well informed of the sporting director role however unique it is to Norwich because I mean for Stuart Weber it was here have the keys mate do what you want but he's in the position with expectation and it's like how you know when Norwich started to go wrong was when the expectation came. Napa is here with expectation he's here with a very old squad he's here with
01:00:38
Speaker
not three months to think about releasing players and getting his own. His circumstances, again, circumstances being the key word, for me, are way more difficult from a PR perspective than than Stuart Weber. But we do need to see him because, you know, I don't want him to say something like, I don't know, we want to be top 17, that kind of stuff. I'm not after that. I'm just after the here and now of
01:01:05
Speaker
no results need to improve, you know, my ideal manager would, and he can say it's David Wagner call whatever, but I want to hear what it is. And then eventually when he does get chopped, we'll we'll deal with that have when it comes to it, we'll do a nourish city and we'll kick the can down the road before we get into that because we could go for another hour on that. But it shall be it shall pique my interest to a very high degree. George, I'm happy to call it there.
01:01:32
Speaker
Are you happy to call it there? Because I don't know how we've kept it under an hour, but we've covered quite a lot. Again, I'd like to say a big thank you to those who listened, to those who watched. If you want to rate the podcast, whether you're watching or listening, please do. It'd be much appreciated if you don't. Fair enough. Subscribe to on YouTube if you fancy it. Again, thank you to everyone who has subscribed so far.
01:01:59
Speaker
When you'll next see us in this format, I don't know. I'm hoping we can do some live stuff soon. I'm sort of figuring out the logistics of doing that because, I mean, that's my bread and bar. I absolutely love doing live stuff, especially where we have a lot more emotion or high level emotions running through our veins, especially after a result. But that's what's to come, hopefully what's to come for Nora Tutti on the pitch is much better. And from myself and George, we'll see you again very, very soon.