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"The State Of Play" City 'Til I Die #1
1.1k Plays1 year ago
Ben debuts our new podcast, City 'Til We Die, alongside the Pink Un's Connor Southwell and George Wilson.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, and welcome to the Alongcome Norwich YouTube channel for the birth of another Norwich City podcast. Panic not, this podcast, City Till We Die, it's called, Shall Be Running, alongside the Alongcome Norwich YouTube channel. Should you make the choice to watch or listen to this podcast, it'll be myself, Ben Ambrose, hosting. And yeah, that's all the admin. Welcome. I'm joined by Connor Southwell and George Wilson too.
00:00:24
Speaker
lifelong Norwich City fans, two fans who I'm sure you guys are feeling the pain at the moment. What way to kick off a new podcast than to sit here and winch for hopefully about an hour about
Current Struggles of Norwich City
00:00:37
Speaker
Norwich City. As you've said Connor in your pieces, Norwich City are free falling into
00:00:43
Speaker
I don't actually know how to describe it in less than an hour, but something that we shall be talking about, a state that is slightly worrying as Norwich City fans and from the outside footballing world, I think it's becoming really apparent the issues that lie within the Norwich City echo chamber at the moment. Chaps, first and foremost, Kyle. How are you? I'll come to you first, Kyle. How are you? You're the reporter, you're the one doing the job of keeping everyone informed. How are you, sir?
00:01:10
Speaker
yeah i'm okay i'm all right it's um yeah maybe that says it all i don't quite know it's it's yeah it's been it's been a really interesting in a negative sense of the word season um i i i probably find myself a little bit shocked because i i remember recording a podcast our our pink and podcast in the summer and going on a bit of a monologue where i was like i am really worried about naru city
00:01:36
Speaker
and then they produced the start that they did and I was like oh I've got this massively wrong you know and the squad looked good and the recruitment looked good and then yeah it's spiralled in a magnificently downward direction like to an extent that I didn't even believe was kind of possible for all the reasons that we'll get into so
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a lot to get your head round, but it's been challenging and it's been difficult to watch.
Challenges of Neutrality in Journalism
00:02:04
Speaker
As you kind of said, at the core of it, I'm somebody who wants Norwich desperately to win and desperately to do well, and at the moment they're not, and that's hard for all of us when that is the case.
00:02:16
Speaker
I think it's really, you know, times like this. And it's the same when it's the other way around where Norwich are doing really well. It's where you earn your money as a jailer because you've got to keep a level head and you've got to try and stay as neutral as possible, which I think you're doing an alright job of so far. I'm not going to inflate your ego too much. George, my man, how are you? As a staunch Norwich City fan, are you, are you okay?
Finding Positivity Amidst Struggles
00:02:38
Speaker
No, I would say I'm okay. And the reason for that is because my weekends at the moment are not completely taken up by
00:02:46
Speaker
doom and gloom, because the fact that on Saturday evening after the Sunderland defeat, I thought I'm actually going to go and watch an Aura City team tomorrow who are playing with a bit of freedom.
00:02:59
Speaker
have got a bit of belief about them. And I don't know, it feels like there's something to get behind there in the women's team who are doing so well, even though Sunday's game didn't go as planned and it was their first defeat. But I think that has kind of maintained my level of okayness regarding Norris City at the minute. But as you say, on the men's side, it is an incredibly concerning time. Just
00:03:27
Speaker
I can't really think of anything at the minute, but I may be John Rowe who continues to try and claw us back in games.
Regional Rivalries and Frustrations
00:03:37
Speaker
He feels like someone you can cling to, doesn't he? It makes it slightly worse at the minute because where I live is in the Ipswich supporting region.
00:03:50
Speaker
Of course, but we don't need to mention it too much, but the way they're going makes it slightly worse with going into work at the moment, et cetera. But it can't get much worse for us, surely.
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sort of sat here realising that I've got it all right. You know, you've got Conor who's got to be a level-headed journo in this chaos, and you've got yourself who lives south of the border, having to put up with the noise from around you, which I'm sure cannot be easy, but you're here with us right now, so you clearly are getting through it, of which football cyclical will be back the other way before you know it. Now, in terms of what we're going to talk about, as I said, it's going to be a lot of sort of just misery, really.
Analyzing Recent Performances
00:04:31
Speaker
And the thing I want to start with is Norris City's recent form before we get into looking at the bigger picture for Norris City because in the grand scheme of things, there actually are a couple of things to maybe be a little bit excited about. I think the word excitement is brave to use, perhaps relieving is what it could be. But let's talk about Norris City's recent form. Connie, you made an interesting point there in terms of Norris City started the season against, you know,
00:05:00
Speaker
not playing the way anyone expected it seemed and if you go on this channel you see the Millwall match review where it says a team with a player is what i called it and you go a couple of videos later and it's time for change that very much sums up the way things have been going indeed it turns of that early form was it a fluke is it an indication to you that Norwich are currently underperforming how do you view that in in the grand scheme of things a little bit further into the season
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's tough. It was what it was, I think, a good start. I think there was probably an element of shock factor about the way that Norwich City were trying to play. It was radically different to how they finished the season, and I think that probably caught a few teams cold.
00:05:43
Speaker
I also think maybe this is revisionism to an extent but I also think you can dissect it in a slightly different way so the whole game I think we could probably it was a last-minute winner so you could argue you could Norwich won the game but you could argue on a different day that the whole city would have got a point out of that they probably should have got beat at Southampton the way that that game transpired and actually a lot of the stuff that we saw in the second half was kind of
00:06:07
Speaker
in a negative sense has come to the surface in perhaps a way that is a lot more obvious and a lot more pertinent now than we would have expected. I thought when they beat Millwall at home, they still had to beat them, but I thought Millwall were very poor. I thought Birmingham were very poor when they came to Carrow Road as well, albeit that was slightly later in the season. And look, there were just some deserved wins in there as well. I know he's deserved to beat Millwall. You're going to have to remind me of the other games that were in that run. They went away somewhere and won, I think.
00:06:35
Speaker
Huddersfield yeah Huddersfield you know they were brilliant that day against again I don't want to keep saying they were poor sides because you still have to beat them but a team who is below them at this moment in time only by three points so albeit a Neil Warnock team which is notoriously difficult so I think you can if you wanted to use revisionism you could do but it was still a very very good start they still had to win those games there's the Carabao Cup games as well
00:07:01
Speaker
So I think there was an element of shock factor, but I think it was what it was. It was a team with kind of players and it was a new look team in a sense, an experienced team. Those experienced players probably hadn't suffered the rigors of the championship. Confidence was high.
00:07:18
Speaker
and I just felt there was a really good energy around the place and whether that was kind of a little bit of momentum that built up over pre-season which was unbeaten as well where by and large they looked, feels funny saying this now, but they looked really solid over pre-season but I was kind of worried where the goals were going to come from and then they absolutely exploded in that sense.
00:07:37
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's hard to say. I think the easy thing to say would be, well, they had Josh Sargent and they had Ashley Barnes, and that's a factor.
Impact of Missing Key Players
00:07:45
Speaker
I don't think it's as night as day as where you put Josh Sargent and Ashley Barnes in this team, and suddenly they're a playoff, maybe even automatic promotion chasing side. And when they're not, they're a team who are 17th in the championship. It's not as graphic as that for me. There are other factors at play, but
00:08:01
Speaker
It's undeniable that with Josh Sargent and Ashley Barnes in that team, they pressed a lot more. They defended from the front in a lot more. They're a lot better structured. And they haven't quite had that balance to their team since. So I think it's a range of factors, but ultimately it is what teams go through during the season. They won a few games. They had a good run. They had an unbeaten run, but it was just a good run, ultimately. And the bulk of the season has been the last two months, and that's been very difficult.
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it, reflecting on that, that early period of the season, because it was a blistering start and it did look as if Norwich City had, you know, not completely reinvented themselves, but had definitely improved. And in, in the, in the moment, I remember our discussions connoisseur privately were along the lines of, well, yeah, they are playing teams who don't look great.
00:08:54
Speaker
but you didn't really, because it was a new season, you had that buzz, you had that real sort of feel good factor about those wins and those performances. Now eight games later from the good run is what we'll call it. Things are looking a bit more doom and gloom and it's not like
00:09:13
Speaker
It's David Wagner's first season where it's just a bit of, well, we've seen the good and we've seen the ugly. You've got all of that context from when he was appointed following Deismith Sacking, which is very relevant because despite what you said in terms of a new look squad, Norwich City, for the most part, look fairly similar to what they did last season. So it's kind of difficult to look at that period in isolation and look at that this season in isolation because you have all of that trauma almost from the back end of last season.
00:09:41
Speaker
Let's talk about the recent form. George won win in eight matches for Norwich, which was against Birmingham, a 2-0 win at Carrow Road. It doesn't make for good listening, for the podcast listeners at home and for those watching. It's quite grim. It's very grim, I should say. That win as well felt a bit, for me anyway, felt a bit like a Dean Smith win where you left Carrow Road a bit like,
00:10:05
Speaker
Is that it? In terms of Norwich's recent fall, and I don't think this is as tough as a question as perhaps it could have been, for you, what's the cause? And then you're absolutely within your rights to say Barnes and Sargent, but for you, what's gone wrong?
Leadership and Management Critiques
00:10:21
Speaker
I think Barnes and Sargent has quite rightly, Conor's already raised it and you see it raised all the time on socials at the moment, quite rightly a reason for the blip. I think before I move on from those two, I think
00:10:37
Speaker
There were quite a few suggestions that Sargent was the much more significant player but I actually look at Ashley Barnes and think back to those early games against the Hulls at home, the Millwall's at home when
00:10:52
Speaker
He maybe wasn't offering as much as Sargent technically, but I just visibly remember him arms outstretched in a second half and constantly telling his teammates to get up the pitch and win that tackle. Just pointing, which doesn't feel like a lot, but it just feels like that leader up front with an either or a huang there just
00:11:16
Speaker
It's just non-existent, the leadership figure there. So I think both Sargent and Barnes probably in about equal measure, but with different reasons have been a big miss. I'm also pleased you referenced the Birmingham win there because
00:11:32
Speaker
thinking back, that was a week after the Plymouth defeat, wasn't it, which some have suggested was similar to Alex Neal's 6-2 at Newcastle. It doesn't matter how you view it. That defeat and by that margin should never, ever have been allowed to happen. It was absolutely embarrassing. And I took real issue the following week at Birmingham with
00:12:00
Speaker
I think Wagner made one change. And I can remember seeing Sam Seaman tweet before the game saying, it's pretty strange that he hasn't changed any of the defense or just not changed more than only one player in the team. And when we won the game, people were going to Sam and saying, oh, this looks really good now, doesn't it? But actually, you look back and now that's the only win. And I just think,
00:12:29
Speaker
There's the argument that those players who played at Plymouth may be the best way to get back was to prove that it was just a blip. But I took real issue with the fact that there wasn't a change made then. The Fulham
00:12:44
Speaker
The Fulham game in the cup obviously came in the middle and I didn't see the game but Jayden Warner there was praise heaped onto him and I kind of make the comparison with 2018-19 when Max Ahrens impressed in one possibly two league cup games
00:13:01
Speaker
and Farka made the brave call of throwing him straight in and yet we're a few a couple of months on from that Fulham game and we still haven't seen Warner in the league have we? I'm not saying that that's the reason for the poor form but the fact that on Saturday we still had a centre-back partnership of Duffy and Gibson after the countless howlers they've made.
00:13:28
Speaker
It just doesn't sit right with me, to be honest. And you've got Danny Bath, who, again, I saw a piece on him today, who was Sunderland's Player of the Season last season. OK, maybe with his feet, maybe he's not the greatest, but he can't be any worse than what has been served up. I don't know. I've gone off on a tangent there, but going back to that Birmingham defeat, it's something I've been thinking about recently, so I thought I needed to go over it.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, the Danny Bart one is an interesting one just in isolation because, as you said, he can't be worse than what we've got. The argument is, well, he's not a ball player. And the argument should be, well, neither Ben Gibson and Shane Duffin and Grant Handy, neither are your other options. You want a ball-playing centre back is now sort of sitting on the bench. I don't even know who's on the bench, but for Nottingham Forest. So it's a very odd position to be in. Connor George has led me beautifully on to my next point, which is about David Wagner and
00:14:26
Speaker
The term that's being tossed around Willie Newey is that he's a cover blanket at the moment.
Squad Balance and Tactical Challenges
00:14:30
Speaker
Nick Mashiter said on the Scrivedge podcast that that cover blanket has gone mouldy or something, which he's absolutely bang on with. I personally think it's 50-50. I think it's
00:14:43
Speaker
50% him being quite stubborn. George's point about that one change for a win, that is one win in A. I think that's a fantastic point that really summarises David Wagner's faults. I also feel a bit sorry for him in the sense of it's like an ill dog who should be put out of his misery, but Norwich City
00:15:02
Speaker
don't seem willing don't know who will pull the trigger and it's a very odd situation but just for some more sort of you know not so nice things to listen to uh nora city and and this one's courtesy of you kind of have faced 99 shots in the last five matches they have conceded the most goals in the championship which is 27 alongside had us field had us field a club who
00:15:27
Speaker
When Norwich are conceding as many at Huddersfield, it's really worrying. Interestingly, they've scored the third most in the league, Norwich City-based, not Huddersfield. Only Ipswich and Leicester have scored more with 29 compared to Norwich's 25. What is it for you, Connor, in terms of where are you on this scale of perhaps feeling a bit sorry for David Wagner, but also there is that element of he's making his bed, so he's got a lie in it.
00:15:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is where I find myself increasingly because, and I've heard this debate a lot, and you always hear it around, you hear two things around managerial changes, really. It's whether a change would actually change anything at all. And so that probably leads onto a conversation about the squad, which I think is a valid one to have, but also the, oh, well, who would you get? Which isn't really, you know, just because there's no obvious candidate out there. There's always a candidate out there, by the way.
00:16:22
Speaker
but just because there's no obvious candidate, that's not enough for a reason to change things. Look, I think what he inherited was a really difficult job. I wrote about it at the time, not knowing at the time that it was going to be David Wagner, but saying whoever inherited this Norrie City job was inheriting a hugely difficult one because of the relationship with the fans and the team, the levels of expectation, which again, you can have your own debate about
00:16:46
Speaker
but also probably because of the squad and where the squad was at last season and where it is now. I think it's slightly different now because you referenced the statistics, the defensive numbers that we're seeing, they're about
00:17:02
Speaker
The way that you can gauge it is the underlying numbers suggest they're about the seventh best attacking team on all of the relevant statistics in the division, but they're the worst defensive team in the division right now and across the first 14 games, which basically renders how good you are as an attacking force completely irrelevant because if your defense is worse than your attack and you're conceding more goals than you score,
00:17:24
Speaker
Well that doesn't leave you in a great place over the course of 46 games but what it does also suggest if you want a positive is that if Norrie City could find a formula to correct that defensive side of it it probably wouldn't take a lot for this to move away from and become quite stable quite quickly.
00:17:40
Speaker
I think it's difficult in the sense that, and you spoke about change there. Last Saturday at Sunland, he did try and change. They ditched kind of this provocation of the press that we've seen. They went into a bit of a lazy four, five, one shape. They tried to protect and contain. And to be honest, weren't good enough to do it. Didn't look well coached at it. Went effective at doing it. And so he kind of taken a massive pivot away from the style that he's been trying to build. And I always think,
00:18:07
Speaker
and Daniel Varka is a good example a couple of years ago, when you start to chase short-term results,
00:18:13
Speaker
you're kind of done really. You can't really go anywhere, particularly if when you do try and get a short-term result, it doesn't work. It kind of happened at Coventry as well, albeit at Norwich, we're pretty close to winning that game, having been battered really for 90 minutes. So there is, I think, those two elements to it. And I've said this before, I think you can argue that it's a very difficult job and that he's had injuries and there's lots of change above him. And that all makes it a very, very difficult job.
00:18:37
Speaker
But you can also say within that that this group of players in this team should not be underperforming to the level and extent that it is at this moment in time and it is underperforming. So, ultimately, when you weigh those up, it comes back to the head coach and
00:18:53
Speaker
that is why David Wagner, I think, finds himself under immense pressure. I do have sympathy with him because maybe this is a point we'll get onto, but I don't think the balance of the squad is right in terms of he's not got a lot of options to change it. You mentioned the defensive issues, and I know a lot of the conversation is around the centre backs, and rightly so. The centre backs expose the system. The system exposes the centre backs, I think, which is never a good place to be. But equally, he doesn't have a natural defensive midfielder that he can put in there to shore things up.
00:19:22
Speaker
in the same way that he doesn't have a natural number 10 that he can put in to change the system. And partly that's because that's the way they recruited and they recruited that way because he wanted them to recruit that way. But partly it makes them really difficult, I think, to change and alter what they're doing because when he played the way that they did, they got absolutely murdered in defensive transitions time and time again. And on Saturday, when he tried to shore it up, they still got battered and conceded three goals.
00:19:45
Speaker
so for me it's a bit like where do you go after that because you've you've kind of tried both extremes neither has worked is there a happy medium possibly i don't know where that is or how you achieve it um and i just think we've got to this stage now where he's probably you know lost lost himself a little bit and lost his way a little bit and i think it's interesting because i remember speaking to i think off tom head it was dano hagan when he was talking about shalke and his spell at shalke
00:20:10
Speaker
And he had a long game without a win there. It might have been 1 in 18 or something ridiculous like that. Maybe even more, maybe slightly less. And he said in the middle of that, it was almost like he couldn't find a formula. He couldn't find a way to change the way the tide was flowing. And that kind of feels like where they're at at the moment. You've got this
00:20:30
Speaker
constant pressure and real flaws which coaching flaws ultimately that he cannot address either tactically or even because of his personnel and when you get into that position it becomes very difficult so it's a really long-winded answer but I think he's in a really difficult spot right now and
00:20:48
Speaker
as a general rule of thumb if my experience of watching football is very rare for someone to emerge from this long term sometimes they can they can get a couple of results and muddle through for a bit but I just think now so they've got blackburn and Cardiff he needs to win them both really because if Norrie's dropped points in any of them it won't be enough to to kind of stem the the noise that is coming um so yeah he's in a really difficult spot and I think just just my final point would be
00:21:15
Speaker
I think from a Norwich perspective there's a real fear about looking knee-jerk, which is admirable in many ways, but also I would argue that knee-jerk would have been if they'd have sacked him after 6-2 at Plymouth. I think we're probably past the stage of something being knee-jerk at this point, as to be fair I think it was when moving into the World Cup break last year with Dean Smith.
In Search of New Directions
00:21:36
Speaker
We'd probably be on that now and something has got to change. And I guess, you know, he's tried changing the system. He's tried changing the approach. He's tried changing the personnel, apart from the incentive back positions, as we mentioned, and the results of the chair are the same. So when that's the case, there's really only one thing left to try and that's the head coach.
00:21:59
Speaker
For me, I think I'm happy to move on in terms of, from David Wagner, but also in terms of looking forward and what Norwich can do about this situation. The conclusion, I think is an obvious one, he's got to lead, he's got to go ASAP, will he? I don't think he will, but everything that you guys have said so far really points towards you've got a manager who is tactically stubborn. And the interesting thing for me, and this is where I think
00:22:26
Speaker
it needs to really be considered that David Wagner will have not signed off on transfers, but he will have been notified. It's not like he's just had players thrown at him and he's sort of going, oh, what the hell am I supposed to do with these players? I think he very much will have had input. This idea of experience, you know, he's really bigged it up since the seed. Well, I mean, even in preseason. So, you know, my feeling of
00:22:51
Speaker
you know, not pity, but basically pity for him in terms of, well, you know, he's doing the best of a back, dealing with the best of a bad bunch. You know, he would have agreed to sign those players. And if he didn't want those players, I'm sure he wouldn't be at the football club. That's kind of how it works in football. You've seen managers leave for less. But like the way Norwich City should go now and the way they are going is Newsborne director,
00:23:18
Speaker
fresh ideas. I don't think we're in dire need of a complete cultural reset. I think things need, and I don't know whether I'm alone in this, I think things need tweaking, but a lot of things need tweaking as opposed to when Stuart Weber arrived on the scene and literally ripped everything to shreds and started again. I don't think that's necessarily what we need. I think Norris City just need to be better at what they have been good at in the past and that requires new faces, new ideas.
00:23:43
Speaker
isn't it? It's direction, I think. I think that's increasingly where I find myself because, and I've seen it a lot of times, it's like, well, are they in a radically different situation than they were in 2017? The answer to that really is yes. The structures and not even, I know people just go, well, the training ground's better, but actually there's a lot of working practices and a lot of different departments and they've stepped up in different areas that has made the football operations better as well.
00:24:08
Speaker
really for me it's just as I wrote in the week really it's just it's just a realignment they need to to kind of find themselves again they've lurched for me between you know when you know when Daniel Farker was sacked it wasn't just him that went it was it was all of the ideas and everything that he kind of personified and carried and then they lurched in a different direction and then they lurched again in a different direction there needs to be a clear plan and kind of a tunnel vision as to
00:24:35
Speaker
what they want to be, where they want to go and how they get there and then you appoint people and recruit people to execute that. That feels to me where we're at at the moment. It's probably a footballing reset maybe rather than a complete overhaul as you said.
Role of Sporting Director Ben Napper
00:24:49
Speaker
George, I'm keen to ask you about Ben Napper because we're going to move on and we're going to look forward and try and find the positives. However, I know for a fact asking this question might breed some more passionate ranting, but, you know, alas, Ben Napper was announced as joining Norrie City on what was the 6th of October
00:25:11
Speaker
scheduled to start and correct me if I'm wrong, on the 27th of November alongside however long a period it is, of Stuart Weber's guidance, however you want to look at that. I just don't know. But for you, and the reason I'm keen to ask you this first, George, is like me, just as a fan who, you know, I speak for myself only, but I'm not particularly well informed on Ben Knapp. I've had to really rely on
00:25:40
Speaker
the media out there, local but also national in terms of from an Arsenal perspective. What are your gut feelings about Arsenal's loan manager coming in and taking over from a role that Stuart Weber established as basically the owner of Norwich City? What do you see the dynamic being? Does it excite you? Is there an element of relief that it's finally time for change?
00:26:10
Speaker
Well, first of all, on the loan manager thing, there's been a lot of, well, maybe not a lot of talk, but I know some have referred back to the Marquinhos signing last year, which obviously didn't go to plan, but I don't think that can come into the equation when we think about this. In terms of whether I'm excited, I think I am excited. I was quite pleased. Well, not pleased so much, but
00:26:38
Speaker
quite refreshed by the fact that when it was announced, I hadn't heard of this person because it kind of, it brought similarities to when Weber came in initially and he came in and made a real mark because I think if you've got no previous, well, very little previous knowledge on someone, then they have a really good opportunity to make a good first impression. And I think the fact that
00:27:07
Speaker
He's had a few roles at Arsenal, hasn't he? He's had the low manager, but then when Wenger was there, he kind of was a bit closer to the first team operations as well. So he's probably been there for such a period of time that he is
00:27:27
Speaker
had a lot of exposure to so many different elements of how that football club is run and okay Arsenal have probably only got their ship in order in the last three maybe four seasons but if he's overseen that and overseen how they've made those improvements at you know what is an elite level club then you would like to think that
00:27:53
Speaker
coming down the division and taking on, I've never been to Colney, but taking on the
00:28:03
Speaker
the brilliant facilities that Weber always refers to and those foundations. Like you say, things don't need to be ripped apart. So you would like to think, even though the situation at the minute is, or it feels like a mess because of the results and the downward trajectory, you would like to think someone with a bit of freshness, which it feels like he has, would be able to get it up off the ground and bring something new and something exciting.
00:28:33
Speaker
for you, Connor, the weather guidance situation. And I think what I want to get from this podcast and what I want to get from this question is just one and make it as long as you like, but like well-constructed answer, defining in your opinion,
00:28:51
Speaker
what the web of guidance is because there's been a few things said and I'll be honest with you, I've blown hot and cold on it. One minute I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe it's not so bad that he's going to show him where he can get his lunch and that kind of thing. And this is introducing him to Neil Adams, this is Neil, this is what he does, that kind of thing. But then I'm also a bit like, the man who, in my opinion, has failed for the past couple of years at his job,
00:29:17
Speaker
is going to be influencing the man who is to take over from his job. And this idea that George has backed up, this idea that Norwich City needs some freshness, perhaps needs some naivety. You know that naivety, that swagger that Stuart Weber had when he came into that club, that bravery. I remember him literally saying, I don't know if this is
00:29:38
Speaker
first interview, but it's really early on, he literally said, I've come into a club where people feel like they're only living. That kind of bravery to say things like that. It's like, do I want the man who's gone so far away from that to be influencing the man I want to do that? What is your perception? And can you please just leave me at the very least feeling like I understand what it means for Stuart Weber to be peering over Ben Nappert's shoulder?
00:30:07
Speaker
Yeah, I'll do my best. I think this has been overstated slightly. I think increasingly and maybe this is because of the way things are at the moment and the fact there's a lot of spotlight on this, but I would no longer expect Stuart Weber to be over Ben Nappa for very long. I would probably say a matter of days, if anything. I think the reality is going to be that he will introduce him to key members of staff.
00:30:33
Speaker
they'll obviously be a tour of two or three of Colney within that and I don't know maybe get him on the work emails or whatever and set up all his accounts but and then from there I think he will leave him to it. I don't think there's going to be this they're going to share an office and Stuart Weathers going to be you know watching over his shoulder and going oh you can't do that I like him or
00:30:54
Speaker
or not sure that's the best decision I don't think that's going to happen I think what we will see pretty swiftly is Ben Nappa coming on the 27th of November sorry and Stuart Weber transition away pretty quickly and it wouldn't surprise me if that was pretty imminently after after Ben Nappa arrived and then I think there's probably an element of
00:31:17
Speaker
here's my number, need anything, call me, which I think is the way it should be. I think maybe a bit more clarity on that point could have been useful at some stage, but that is the situation as I understand it. Whether that would have been the same if results were going a little bit better than they are now, I don't know, because I think the ideal plan was certainly for the first month to have Stuart Weber in and around the setup.
00:31:41
Speaker
But I think increasingly that's not viable and that's not tenable. So that's the situation as I understand it. So I think it will be a little bit different than maybe what has been spoken about and what has been framed.
00:31:57
Speaker
So yeah, if that makes sense. I think from day one, I would expect Ben Nappa to be in charge, really. I don't think there's going to be kind of this hand holding that perhaps many of people have spoken about. Yeah, so that's kind of how I see it. My next question for you, Connor, is
00:32:16
Speaker
In terms of my concerns, I don't know whether it's my brain being a Norwich Norfolk boy and looking for the not so bright side of life. My head is telling me
00:32:32
Speaker
concerns wise, is it possible that Ben Napper is in the position on the basis of don't rock the boat too much? Because obviously, as I said before, Webber came in and he rocked the boat completely. And for the first couple of years, it was for the better of the football club, it was for the greater good.
00:32:53
Speaker
things changed. But my brain is telling me Ben Napper is here on the terms of this is what you have to play with, do the best you can, as opposed to get in here and sort us out, if you know what I mean. First of all, is that a fair concern? And is that something perhaps you can put at ease for myself or for other Norwich City fans?
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, I get the thrust of what you're saying. I think what I would say to counter that is actually the Norwich Sporting Director position is pretty unique in English football in that a Norwich City Sporting Director can hire a manager, can fire a manager.
00:33:33
Speaker
pretty much has autonomy to do whatever they like on the footballing side of the business without too much interruption or interaction even from people higher up or sideways or below or whatever. I think there will be an element of he will probably want to take stock and so I think this idea that he's going to come in and change a load of things in a really short period of time
00:33:58
Speaker
I might be completely wrong but that's not the sense that I get and that's not usually how this role works because a sporting director is there to plan longer term. Whether that means he comes in and makes a head coach change I think is completely different but in terms of like radically altering the power structures and the way that Norris City operate and
00:34:16
Speaker
their existence I think is I think you're probably right to an extent but but equally I think you could argue that that doesn't necessarily need to happen in the same way so I think what you could argue is and I think this has probably become apparent over the last two years what Stuart Webber was really really good at was disrupting was changing was this kind of change management and grabbing a football club and
00:34:38
Speaker
and changing direction pivoting it what he wasn't necessarily so good at was sustainment he wasn't good at when there was stability when he got the changes that he'd implemented he wasn't then good at building and progressing. So you could argue that what knowledge need now is someone to build someone to stay in someone who's a bit more stable in that regard.
00:34:58
Speaker
on all fronts i think they're radically different characters as well stewart-webber isn't massive on on data i think if if you've ever spoken to him he would freely admit that he doesn't really understand it it's not really the world he's from he employed people john eiger who's very very talented at that sort of thing and a range of data scientists to focus on that
00:35:18
Speaker
Ben Napper is massively data orientated understands it knows how to break down it knows how to utilize it for information knows how to take it contextually. So I would see those two people is coming from completely different backgrounds and therefore.
00:35:34
Speaker
I would expect Nouri City to make probably more decisions based on data and be that recruitment, be it fitness, be it managers and assessing them. So this is kind of where I see the change of direction. Fundamentally, I think you have now got, thanks to Stuart Weber,
00:35:52
Speaker
I think the academy is in a pretty good place. You could argue whether the talent is there but I think the structure of it and the actual idea of progressing players up an academy structure is there. You could then argue you know whether their recruitment has meant that that's got blocked but that does exist now in a way that it didn't when Stuart Weber arrived. They recruit in a slightly different way but ultimately they're still going to be the same in terms of
00:36:16
Speaker
the budgets are going to be the same. Again, he's inheriting a real mess in terms of a squad because I think there's 11 players who are going to be over 30 by mid-November. That's a really difficult situation to inherit. And then you've got nine players who are I think between 28 and 23, which is kind of what we call the peak years. So
00:36:40
Speaker
there is some real rebalancing that needs to be done and big decisions that need to be made. So I think we will see more change on the footballing side than the structural side because it's easy, I think, to say, knowledge of losing games and everything's broken. And I think actually there's a lot of stuff structurally and the way that they operate that isn't broken fundamentally. The decisions they've made, despite good intentions, I think have been wrong and they've hurt them.
00:37:10
Speaker
maybe we'll reflect on this summer's recruitment probably too early to tell yet but increasingly it feels like it has been a step in the wrong direction really and so he's got a bit of sorting out to do but do I see fundamental sweeping change where 20 staff members get the sack and knowledge completely change what they are as a football club and how they operate I don't really see that could be completely and utterly wrong
00:37:32
Speaker
I don't get that sense. I see tweaks and changes that help Norwich build. And I see that primarily through data. And I think he's been brought in to lead the data range of the football club, which is where they feel the gains are. Just a final point as well. I think that he is going to be really big on psychology as well. From what I gather, he is someone that views that as being the next big
00:37:58
Speaker
driver of football, the psychological elements of it. So I'd expect to see Norwich do some quite interesting stuff in that area as well. So I think it will be adding and building rather than destroying, changing and disrupting.
Ideal Traits for a New Head Coach
00:38:13
Speaker
The word reset is the word that we're hearing a lot, isn't it? And your definition of what's to come makes that word
00:38:22
Speaker
not particularly relevant and we've established it, I think we all agree, it's tweaks and as you say, it's not a massive, it's not an actual reset at all really, it's just doing things better and differently. So when I hear the word reset quite a lot, I'm kind of always just thinking, nah, not quite. And there is one thing that I think is fairly universal amongst Norwich fans as something that is to come, that is to happen.
00:38:47
Speaker
which is one of the similarities between the Norwich City now and the Norwich City in March 2017, which is they need a new manager. You know, forget the, I mean, it will become relevant when we have this little exercise of not who, but what is your ideal manager, what are their traits and their qualities and then their style of football. I think one thing that is for sure is that Norwich City need a new head coach. I'm sorry, I keep saying manager. For you, George,
00:39:18
Speaker
what's the definition of a head coach that Norwich City should be looking for? Be as vague, be as specific as you like. And I want to say this just to maybe, I don't know whether it will influence your answer or not, but Norwich City for me, in my opinion, have the two blueprints for
00:39:35
Speaker
the way you win a championship title. You've got Farka in 2018-2019 scoring more than you can see. The four threes, the three twos, the 95th minute winners compared to his second championship win.
00:39:50
Speaker
which was more on the lines of and of defensive stability. The big thing for me was not necessary. I mean, it was obviously systematic and you can sit and you can pick out the differences. But like, for example, the second championship, you had Oli skip doing a lot of the dirty work.
00:40:06
Speaker
in the first season you had two really creative midfielders and we had many really creative midfielders and the most offensive was Tom Tribal and I think that speaks volumes in terms of the quality of defending in that midfield. So you've got those two blueprints for how to win a championship title
00:40:25
Speaker
which for you are you picking and what are you looking for from a head coach and let's not get into whether it will happen or when it will happen because I'm viewing it as a certainty
00:40:37
Speaker
What are you looking for in terms of on the pitch, but also off the pitch? Because for Norwich fans, especially with the contrasting experiences of Daniel Farker and Dean Smith and then David Wagner, that is just as important as on the pitch. What are you picking out as the traits and the desires that you have for whoever will be Norwich City's new head coach?
00:40:59
Speaker
I think it's interesting how you mentioned Daniel Farquhar's team, as in the we'll score one more than you, that kind of approach, because I would agree with that. I'd also always think of Paul Lambert's 2010-11 team as
00:41:18
Speaker
that was kind of what you associated them with. You know, there were a couple of wins at Carrow Road, what was it, Holt against Reading, and then there was Lansbury against Millwall. I think they were within a few weeks. I mean, I'm going to the back of my brain with those, because I appreciate they're a long time ago. But I think, yeah, that kind of, I think attacking is the key, isn't it? But equally, I think the
00:41:48
Speaker
The thing I think about at the moment when you think of all these defensive numbers, like you said, the comparisons with Huddersfield Town and their record this season and just the fact that it's been so poor in comparison to the league, I do kind of wonder whether for the rest of this season, whether they need to make sure they prioritise that and
00:42:14
Speaker
make sure we're just not shipping goals. But equally, that isn't sustainable because Norwich fans want to be entertained and they want to be on the front foot. So I'm kind of torn between that at the minute. I think when I spoke to you privately the other day, I mentioned the name
00:42:38
Speaker
Gary Rowett to you, which I kind of think back and think, what the hell was I thinking? Because I think if you said that to Millwall fans who got completely turned over at Carrow Road earlier in August, they would say, he's not going to give you what you want. But I don't know. Part of me thinks
00:43:00
Speaker
We have never really had a manager, unless you're going back to Chris Houghton, who prioritizes the defense. But I'm not saying that is what we want. I just kind of think with this team and with how open we are, you just need someone who is maybe a little bit more conservative. But that's kind of the opposite of what you said, isn't it?
00:43:20
Speaker
Yeah, I'll be honest with you. I thought the Gary Rower thing was a joke. I'm going to take you to the mic when you said that. But I see it. I completely disagree, but I don't think we'll get into that discussion. The interesting thing for me and the way I think Norris City should build themselves before, I know it kind of gives us a good 15 minutes on what he thinks.
00:43:39
Speaker
No, it should go for that 20 slash 21 season in terms of you have that body, you have that Oliver Skippen. Look, I know I'm sort of living in Dreamland in the sense of let's think of the context with that squad. It had that prior experience of the championship title when it had that prior experience of the hurt from the Premier League. It had the coach who had been in post for, I think, what was it, his fourth, Daniel Farkas fourth season at Norwich. You have all that context as to why Norwich played like that.
00:44:09
Speaker
But I don't think that's a you know, I don't think there's a reason that nourish that you can't then take that blueprint as I say in and play that way because nourish is way back then is is Well, it yielded for me results similar to literally but also aesthetically it yielded results similar to that first championship win I was sat there at home as opposed to at the Grand thinking
00:44:32
Speaker
my God, we're good. We're playing some really attractive football. We're playing some football that finds a slightly different way to what Daniel Farker did in his first title win, finds ways to just penetrate defenses relentlessly. And you look at that win against Huddersfield, for me, again, it was a very weak Huddersfield team. But that was the culmination of everything. It felt like everything that Daniel Farker had worked for, those three prior years of just
00:45:02
Speaker
learning the hard way, but also reaping some rewards. That performance was, for me, how I want Norwich City to model this next chapter under Ben Napper. I'm aware that the first tyre that Ben Napper makes, he might not be the answer because, you know, one thing is for sure. Stuart Weather came in, he got the manager, we were all absolutely spot on.
00:45:24
Speaker
immediately. That might not happen. And I have a feeling Connor, this is going to be what you're going to say as well in terms of this idea that you need someone with at the very least a philosophy. I really don't think David Wagner has that properly. But not just that the adaptability and I'm sure you guys are familiar with back in the Daniel Farr career, this idea of a plan A and a plan B
00:45:47
Speaker
I never really believed in the plan B, but plan A could be tweaked and done better and more efficiently. Norwich City did that, and that's going to be an important trait for an incoming head coach. But for you, Connor, and if you now say Gary Rowett, I think I might have to leave the room. But for you, the ideal head coach, the ideal person to come in and spearhead this, what we'll hopefully be,
00:46:11
Speaker
I'm going to say New Wayne or a city as opposed to New Look because if they come in next week, if they come in in February, the squad is going to be the same. Who is the ideal sort of candidate?
00:46:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'll give you profile rather than name because I think it's definitely not Gary Rauert by the way, which is one of the more out there ones. Sorry, George. They tried that with Dean Smith and it went badly, so I think straight away from that. It's interesting because when you're in a situation like this and there's a manager on the brink or a manager that's just lost their job,
00:46:47
Speaker
If you've had an experienced one, you then try and lurch, I think, and say, oh, well, must get a really young and up-and-coming one. And if you have a young and up-and-coming one that fails, we've got to go and get someone with experience. So I think there's a bit of this at play. But increasing that, I look at the trends. You look at the successful managers in the championship at the moment. Enzo Maresca, Michael Carrick, Kieran McKenna, someone else who I was going to mention that's completely lost. Did I say Michael Carrick? I did say Michael.
00:47:16
Speaker
Even last season you could you could put Vincent company in there I think they're they're young coaches who have a clear way of playing so that's that's primarily it so I think football It's the old football is simple kind of thing, but but it is to an extent I think what where clubs go wrong is and this is partly where Norwich have gone wrong, but
00:47:38
Speaker
If you're Ben Nappa, you come in and you say, right, this is how we're going to play. I'm going to appoint a head coach who plays in that way. And then we're going to recruit players to play that style of play. It's what got Norwich success under Daniel Farka. They went, we're going to play like this. We're going to appoint a head coach to do it. And then we're going to recruit in a way that enables them to do it.
00:47:56
Speaker
And then when things got a little bit difficult, they went, oh no, none of this works. And I don't think that's quite the case. I think it could have been that maybe Daniel Farker didn't work. And then the idea was that you plug someone else into that overall structure and the machine keeps going, even if the head coach doesn't. And it's the idea of this head coach coming pretty dispensable. So I think where I am at now is that Norris City need a young
00:48:20
Speaker
coach, head coach, maybe someone who's not done the job before. For me that may depend on what the situation is when they come in because it is quite feasible. Knowledge could be still in and around the bottom three. That's a realistic thing on the trends and on the way that they're performing. I don't think they will be, but that's a distinct possibility.
00:48:40
Speaker
If they are in that, I think it becomes very difficult or more difficult to go in that direction. I think you have to have someone with a bit more of a CV behind them. But I think you could find traits in that. But if Norrie City are about where they are now and they're looking relatively comfortable in comparison to the bottom three, then I think there's an argument for getting a really young car. I said I wasn't going to throw names in. I'll throw names in. Someone like Eric, not these people specifically, but Eric Ramsey at Manchester United, someone who's really highly regarded and up and coming.
00:49:11
Speaker
Justin Cochrane, who's at Brentford, I don't know if that's how you say his last name, I think it is, who's at Brentford at the moment, was at Manchester United. Someone like that, I think if you look at the trend of what's working, Maresca was with Guardiola, Carrick and McKenna were at Manchester United.
00:49:26
Speaker
They're examples of young coaches doing well. I think you could go in the opposite direction and look at someone like Liam Manning, who's doing a brilliant job at Oxford, John Messina at Portsmouth, but I think it needs to be a young, progressive coach recruited to an identity. It doesn't really matter what that identity is. If you want to play 4-4-2, and you want to play two big men, and you want to play like Tony Pulis, that's fine, but then recruit a head coach and recruit to do it. I think this is where Norris City have got a bit lost.
00:49:54
Speaker
If it was me personally I'd be looking for a young type who maybe hasn't done the job before but I recognise that that might not be a popular view or maybe even a viable view given no city's current situation because you're doing that with a lot of risk.
00:50:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's certainly a view and it's one that I lean towards just because I like the idea of growing with a manager as opposed to, with Daniel Farka came in, by no means necessarily was he young, young, but he was fresh and he was naive with his ideas.
00:50:26
Speaker
compared to when Dean Smith came in with the expectation and the context of everything he'd achieved and the idea that he had something to live up to where a standard fucker didn't. I always liked to lean towards the underdog and this idea of being the underdog and Norwich City going forward.
Rebuilding Narrative and Setting Expectations
00:50:43
Speaker
George, for you, what did Norwich City have to do in terms of controlling? And now this is where I think is an appropriate time to use the word resetting, resetting that narrative.
00:50:53
Speaker
what do you think Norris city should do? Because for me quickly, I think Norris, you need to go for the, you know, the putting the hands up and saying, look, things have a big go. Well, you don't have to undercut all the work that's been done. That's led us to this point.
00:51:08
Speaker
But I really think it should be a case of, look, we're aiming to be top 26 or whatever again. We're looking to build again. You don't even have to say top 26. You just have to essentially dangle a carrot in front of the nurse that he fans faces because at the moment, we're being told we should be up here when we're down here. And not only are we down here, but we deserve to be down here, which is the worrying thing. And just really quickly, Connor, you mentioned that.
00:51:38
Speaker
the the idea that Norwich by the time a new head coach comes in Norwich could still be in that position and the one thing that's really shaken me to my core for the first time since I think I was sort of nine or ten years old watching Norwich City play under Glenn Roder was
00:51:53
Speaker
my God, this kind of naivety and exportation that I have that nourish city shouldn't get relegated could end up getting them relegated if people in much higher positions than I also possess that naivety. But for you, George, that narrative, what is the ideal play and give me it from the perspective of someone from within the club setting it, but also what you would want to hear as a fan.
00:52:20
Speaker
Well, I think if it was to be a young coach along the lines of some of the names Connor there was just suggesting another one, which is obviously coming up in discussions because of the Arsenal link is Jack Wilshere, which I think is a quite intriguing one. But equally, I think if it was to be somebody like that, then they would probably
00:52:49
Speaker
I think they would temper expectations for this season. I think Wagner at the start of the year was
00:52:59
Speaker
he was going on the line that we want to be promoted. And I think this season, and I think Zoe Webber was going with the same line in a couple of the interviews that she did. I think depending on the league position that we're in, if, when a new manager comes in, I think for this season specifically that the line will probably be
00:53:25
Speaker
I think we'll probably hear the word rebuild, to be honest, but whether they try and use the word promotion is a different thing.
00:53:36
Speaker
But ultimately, given that for the last 15 or so years, we've spent, I can't think of the number off the top of my head, but must be five, six, possibly even seven seasons in the top flight. Ultimately, the overall expectation across the fan base is gonna be that we get back there in not too long. So I think they will know that
00:54:03
Speaker
whoever is coming in will need to get there eventually. The top 26 suggestion which like you say Weber has always aimed for, I don't think that's something they should go with again or that they will go with again because that then suggests that when you're in that division that you're
00:54:28
Speaker
that you're satisfied with coming 20th, but on the other hand, I understand that having seen a couple of disastrous attempts at staying in there, that is why they use that phrase, isn't it? So yeah, that's how I see it, I think.
00:54:44
Speaker
I think for me, I want a project to believe in and in what is now Norwich City in, well, even Pride. We're a concept of an embryo stage is what we are, because Ben Knapp has not even started his job.
00:55:00
Speaker
What I want is just a project to believe in and I'm not going to sit here and spend ages defining that. We'll do that in a couple of weeks. When Ben Napper starts his position, Connor, the last question, can Norwich City still be successful this year and define for me what success would be in your book?
00:55:17
Speaker
staying up, I'm joking, I'm joking. I think it probably depends again what you classify success as, I think. Do that for me though, do that for me from your perspective. I don't know, I don't know is the honest answer because I think
00:55:35
Speaker
in many ways I think the start has gone against them because it kind of particularly now because it proved that they could play well and that they this was a team that was capable when it had everyone fit that it could it could challenge teams don't have everyone fit for 46 games it's just no team in the championship
00:55:52
Speaker
will have that available to them. So then it becomes about the coaches and the depth of squads, I guess. And maybe that's the point. I think for Norwich, I feel success at this stage would be an improvement on last season when they finished 13th. I think if they could finish higher than that, I think if they could get in the top 10.
00:56:10
Speaker
That would be brilliant. I'm not looking at it at the moment and feeling that there's anything really that he's saying that this side can get higher. Well, I can certainly get in and around the playoffs, but as I said earlier, it can turn quickly. If they can sort the defensive numbers out, then I think they would push up the table pretty quickly. It's just what sparks that and how they get there.
00:56:34
Speaker
look there's there's enough of the season we've seen teams in fairness before do it i remember middles were doing it a couple of years ago um i guess Coventry are the best example from last year teams have really slow and poor starts and end up in good positions so you can't just let this season kind of rot and die i don't think because there's
00:56:53
Speaker
the way they've recruited, the way they've done it, which again, I don't think has helped expectation levels as much as the good start, because if you sign Ashley Barnes and Shane Duffy and players over 30, you're saying, well, we're going to win and we're going to win now. There's no sense of project or building to that. So that hasn't helped them probably with the narrative to an extent, I would argue.
00:57:12
Speaker
So success for me would be an improvement on league position last season. But I personally, I find that quite difficult to define a success, to be completely honest, for a team that at this moment in time has parachute payments. I don't know, they don't have access to them, but they should be doing a lot better than they are. So yeah, that's kind of where I am on it. I don't know. I'm a bit confused, Ben.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think that really, and thanks for that, because that really sums up the state of Northern City at the moment. I think in a month's time, we'll feel a little bit clearer because Ben Knapp will be in post and we won't have to sit here and just completely theorize about what he's going to do. Chaps, I want to say a big thank you for joining me and for making me feel a little bit more excited about the fact that
00:57:59
Speaker
there is change around the corner. There is perhaps a brighter future for Norwich City. What I'll do is urge people listening, watching whatever to go over to the pinky where you'll see Connor's fantastic work covering the men's first team and also George's work covering Norwich City women. It's all content that I love to watch. Following Norwich City women at the moment is is joyous compared to the men. They're having a really strong start to the season, playing some really good football
00:58:27
Speaker
I think I've been to a couple of games where I've seen a 2-2 draw, a 1-1 draw, but I've not been there. It's been 5-1, 4-0, so I'm slightly concerned that I am a curse. That has been the messaging. They've said, stay away because we want to win games. Chaps, as I said, a big, big thank you to those who have listened and watched whatever you've done. Thumbs up, rate the podcast however you want. If you want to subscribe,
00:58:53
Speaker
That'll be much appreciated. If you want to give that thumbs up, it would also be appreciated. Content to come, I don't know, just a whole lot of whining about Nora City. But until then, we'll see you all again very, very soon.