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"Fourteen Years" ACN Pod 125
896 Plays1 year ago
Punt & Tom round off the year looking back on a derby of anxiousness and pride, the Wagner conundrum, the sense of drift, the inertia, the renewals, the attendances, Knapper's audit. And if the Grant Holt spares us and the broads don't rise we'll be back to do it all again after Christmas.
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Transcript
Opening & Football Fixture Streak
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Long Come Knowledge podcast. Fine football fair for the fine city football fan, a feast of fun as we're unfamiliar with failing in a particular fixture for 14 years and still counting. It's just me and punt today. Let's get at it.
Ipswich Game Reflections
00:00:37
Speaker
Was that a lesser spotted glimpse of pride I spotted amongst the carey faithful this weekend? I think, oh god, it was such a weird game, wasn't it? Because we all went in there thinking that the inevitable was about to happen. Let's get this really clear. Ipswich fans definitely thought the inevitable was about to happen, you know, given the...
00:00:57
Speaker
level of antics that they'd they'd conjured up pre-match. Well, it was a cup final. It was ridiculous. A friend of mine's Facebook post, so I am friends with a scumber and on his Facebook post, he had used the hashtag our time as if it was it. Can you ever really truly be friends with a dinner? I mean, is it actually physically possible? He is a lovely boy.
00:01:22
Speaker
So they really, really did think it was their time, didn't they? Like, you know, fucking hell, just coming up with that hashtag on your own was all sorts of ridiculousness.
Norwich Performance & Fan Pride
00:01:31
Speaker
But it was a really weird game because it is very clear, abundantly clear, it's which are streets ahead of us in terms of being, you know, cohesive, organized, playing a brand of football that's easy on the eye. But we were
00:01:50
Speaker
Can you come back to your original question about, you know, was there some pride there? Yeah, there absolutely was, because we were dogged, we were obdurate, we really dug in when we needed to dig in, and we rode their initial kind of 25, 30 minute storm, and then we came back with a little bit of our own, I wouldn't say decent play, but actually it was, there was fights, and I think that sometimes that's all you want to see as a football fan,
00:02:17
Speaker
is that they're really trying and they're really applying themselves. But there was also some great performances to speak of as well. And I can't remember the last time that I watched The Nourish Cityside and I was like, actually, he was brilliant or she was brilliant. Actually, no, there's plenty of times that you can do that with a women's team.
00:02:36
Speaker
The men's team, it was like, I mean, how good was Shane Duffy on Saturday? How good was Gabrielle Serra? How good were all of them, really, in terms of their application? It was fantastic to watch in that regard and hilarious to watch in so much as
00:02:57
Speaker
They are streets ahead of us and they still can't really lay a proper glove on us. And I just love all the, oh, we didn't really want to win anyway. Actually, look, we're 21 points ahead of you. You're fine lads. Like you have that, have whatever you want.
Player Performances & Referee Decisions
00:03:11
Speaker
But the bragging rights remain in Norfolk and it is quite delicious.
00:03:16
Speaker
As the commentator said, they're still in our shadow when it comes to this fixture. And I think there's two things I want to pick up on there. The first one is the performances. So if you go through the team, Gunn made a huge save, which I do think he should have done. I think he was very culpable for their second goal. He takes a completely unnecessary step to the left.
00:03:41
Speaker
and as burns was it and you had is lining up to shoot into the corner the ball goes I actually as it happened I've got my dad here today and he hadn't seen the pilots yet so I watched the highlights with him this morning and we're recording this on on Monday not just us and he
00:04:00
Speaker
doesn't even get the ball, it's not even nearly in the corner, it's not nearly inside the post, which I thought in real time, obviously didn't watch the replay live, and the step that Gunn takes, he'll want, you know that sort of phrase, he'll want that one back, he really would want another crack at that because
00:04:18
Speaker
that he needed far less goalkeeping skills to save that goal than he did the one that he saved afterwards but fair play to Gunn I thought he came and wasted time just the right amount like I think he went long and passed short just the right amount and then across the back four McCallum looked rusty to start with but then really grew into the game and I thought stood up to their kind of antics really really well
00:04:42
Speaker
Stacey, I thought, had maybe his game of the season from a defensive point of view. I mean, he really did send them inside at the right time. He was on the wrong end of some yellow card challenges, which the referee, I thought, played an absolute blinder. I mean, I can't remember Darby being refereed that well in terms of he really did let everything go. There was nothing at red card level. But once he let Barnes kick their goalkeeper,
00:05:11
Speaker
where he was chasing down a ball early. I thought, well, he's either going to be very, very biased in our favor if that's not a yellow, or he's going to be like this the whole way through the game. And he was. I think it was two bookings in the whole game. And there could have been a lot more than that.
Defensive Strategy & Player Roles
00:05:24
Speaker
It had a referee tried to get on top of it early. The needle in the game could have got worse. Duffy, I think you're right, was absolutely fantastic. McLean gave the ball away just before the corner for the goal.
00:05:38
Speaker
But again, other than that, he's similar to Gunn. He did so much right that you kind of forgive him that. Going across the midfield, Sara was superb. I thought Nunez positioning was really, really disciplined. I thought the two of them bearing in mind that they would both rather be 30 yards forward up the pitch.
00:05:57
Speaker
you know, that is probably one amongst our least offensive midfields we've ever put out. Zara and Nunez getting this run of the team together. You know, they're all about technical ability, but the positioning when you look a lot of the time that yes, we were parking the bus because, you know, you know, tactically, that's what we had to do to get a result on on Saturday lunchtime. I thought the two of them did brilliantly, shuffling left and right and being disciplined and knowing when to go and when not to go.
00:06:21
Speaker
I thought Edith was starved of any real service, but did look like he could hold the ball up when he got the opportunity to. And whilst Barnes, yes again, was at fault for the second goal, and to your point on Duffy, my favourite thing probably of the whole weekend was Duffy marching towards Barnes. You see it on the replay as soon as the goal goes in, the second one. Duffy is just screaming at Barnes. He's already got his hand on his head. He knows it,
Ipswich Strategy & Comparisons
00:06:49
Speaker
he mucked up.
00:06:49
Speaker
But I thought generally Barnes did what you needed from a sort of nasty striker. We're not going to have a lot of the ball. Let's be a nuisance. Let's stand on a few people's feet. Let's be unpleasant. So I honestly thought it was a really prideful performance. And to pick up on your other point around them being streets ahead, they are much easier on the eye than us. But I do think a huge amount of it is confidence rather than quality in the squad. And now we've seen all but one or all but two teams.
00:07:18
Speaker
they're not the second best team we've played in this league so far. And with over half the season gone, I'm more confident today than I have been at any other point that Leeds and or Southampton will finish above them. That's quite the claim. Quite the claim. Not with half the season left. It's a three game swing out of 24 games remaining. It's not exactly going to take a massive breakdown for them to be caught.
00:07:48
Speaker
I think it would really surprise me if, I think with Ipswich, you could tell that they were incredibly well coached. They're clearly a team that is bigger than the, or greater than the sum of its parts because, you know, these lads, I think maybe the Sky Commentators even described a couple of them as like League Two players who McKenna has gelled into, you know, just being really good and efficient at what they're doing.
00:08:15
Speaker
I think that's fair, but they're a team and they have a philosophy and they just know exactly what they're doing. And what impressed me actually with them as well is that they seem to be fairly interchangeable in that regard. So, you know, they made substitutions and I thought that those players came in and did well. And that was at a point where
00:08:35
Speaker
Norwich were going into their shell and they were really, I mean, it was backs against the walls for the last 20 minutes without Ipswich really creating anything meaningful. But I don't know. I think the occasion got to Ipswich, but I could see enough of them to think, yeah, do you know what? I think they're still going to be top two. And the gap that has already emerged and the fact that
00:08:58
Speaker
Southampton and Leeds are still a little bit in and out in terms of their form. I don't think they'll catch them. Southampton run beaten in 12. If that's in and out on 4, my goodness me, I'd like to see a form team.
Ipswich Promotion Prospects?
00:09:13
Speaker
Well that's fair.
00:09:15
Speaker
Well, I think the form table for the last six games prior to the Derby match was Ipswich were top of it and we were second for the last six games. Don't get me wrong, they're playing with an extreme amount of confidence and yes, they're almost guaranteed playoffs. However, I'm just talking about the actual ability of some of the players we've seen and some of the teams we've seen.
00:09:33
Speaker
I just think it's such a huge drop off though, for them to... 10 points over 24 games. But the second best championship start ever and the first best was less as this season as well. So prior to this season, the best start there has ever been in the championship. I just don't expect them to drop the ball.
00:09:52
Speaker
We will see and I would look I would Kevin Keegan it if they did that, you know Part of me, but I don't know part of me after I didn't I didn't want them to go up and But part of me quite fancy is watching them getting burned lead every week I quite fancy them being absolutely humiliated and coming down because I've managed
Norwich's Unbeaten Derby Record
00:10:16
Speaker
to I haven't watched a minute of Ipswich this season because they haven't played us so there's been no reason reason to and so
00:10:22
Speaker
I'm quite good at ignoring all sorts in the world, but particularly scum. And I would quite enjoy just tuning into the match of the days when they get battered, knowing already that that happened. And I don't have to watch a parade and it doesn't bother me. And also, I don't want to deny other humans nice things.
00:10:44
Speaker
as long as it doesn't impact us if you see what I mean. Because I can easily just not look at Twitter on the day they get promoted and the two or three days after because I don't care. Point is, they can't, the thing that we've got agency over, the thing that we own, the thing that's important to us and like this became clear over the weekend is this kind of the unbeaten element in the Derby, that's the thing that is spectacularly important to maintain. And if they end up going up, but
00:11:11
Speaker
we get a draw or better at Carrow Road, I'm fine with that because I can just switch off and not have to follow them being kind of successful elsewhere. But I think there's enough good teams in the championship to draw them down. I think it would be an interesting kind of title race from that point of view. But getting back to us, one of the things that I think is a really interesting thing to talk about is last time we chatted and we haven't been as frequent as we would have liked to have been, listeners, but diaries and life.
00:11:39
Speaker
and it's free so shish, is Wagner. So last time we talked Wagner we were like why is he still here? I mean I sort of still feel the same in that I still don't think I've seen anything tactically or style of football
Concerns Over Wagner's Future
00:12:02
Speaker
that to change that mind, but he can't be sacked based on the results at the moment. So we are in this weird sort of limbo. Yeah, that's well, that's exactly the word I was going to use. It is limbo because everything that Ben Nappa has said at the AGM that we've seen and the early media that he did and all right, that was in-house, so he only sort of limited view without much scrutiny. But all of this is like right wall.
00:12:28
Speaker
Actually, he wants progressive, you know, free flow, not necessarily free flowing, but attractive to watch football, you know, and something that supporters can buy into. And I just look, if it's this for the next couple of seasons under Wagner.
00:12:45
Speaker
We'll bob around. We'll finish 11th, 12th or somewhere between 10th and 16th. No, no, no, no. With a fully fit squad, I still think this is a sixth to 12th team. All right. Well, you know. Have you seen the dross in this league? There is no way. Yeah, yeah. And I think we're among it. I think we're among it. We're not a bottom eight team. All right, mate. I'm saying anywhere between 10th and 16th.
00:13:13
Speaker
I don't think we're great. I think we're poorly coached. I think that we are trying to now be hard to beat rather than anything else. And I don't think that's sustainable over a longer term period. I think that supporters will get bored of it quickly. And I don't think it's what Ben Napper wants for this football club. So, you know, we've seen and heard from Mark Atanasio. We've heard from Delia and Michael in terms of like Ben Napper is
00:13:43
Speaker
he's making an assessment almost like undertaking a full audit of the football club and saying right and he's going to report back to the board and go this is where we're at this is how I think we should move forward and a pillar of that is to to perhaps freshen up the squad and bring in some younger faces but
00:13:59
Speaker
I don't know, these are the guys that Wagner probably picked, and if he didn't, then he was certainly in the room when they were being picked. I just don't see how he forms any sort of part of a longer term strategy with Noorissi.
00:14:16
Speaker
But yet you're right, you can't do anything with him now. The guy has what got four wins out of seven games, probably lost one of those maybe. So the form is decent, and if you aggregate that over a season, would be plenty, you know, enough for playoffs. But yet you get the overriding sense when you look at performances that we're not very good. And, you know, I thought that was evident again on Saturday. There's loads to be proud of, but actually,
Fan Sentiment & Attendance Issues
00:14:44
Speaker
if we were the Norwich of maybe the first three or four games, I think we could have gone to Ipswich. And I think Ipswich, there was certainly there was a fragility at the back with them that led me to believe that we could get at them again. We only really conjured up three, maybe four proper moments. It was a bit of a snatch and grab kind of
00:15:06
Speaker
draw that we got there. Brilliant that we got it, by the way. I'm not in any way demeaning the achievement of getting the draw because it's, you know, it was funny. But is this a team and is this a club that I can see that is moving in the right direction? Not really. I just, as I say, I think it's going to be that we bob along and this season will peter out.
00:15:31
Speaker
And I just can't see us anywhere near the playoffs. I know, you know, maybe you can with a fully fit Josh Sargent coming back, but I think he's going to take at least six weeks to probably get up to any sort of sharpness. So, you know, by then you'll be talking about middle to latter part of February. So it just, it feels like there's
00:15:54
Speaker
There's an inertia around it at the moment and we probably will go through, if we stick with Wagner, probably go through another run where we have five or six games without a win and then we might go on another little run where we put a bit of form together. Wagner has been incredibly fortunate with the teams that we've played over the last six or seven games with the exception of Ipswich in so much as none of them have really been that good.
00:16:20
Speaker
And all right, you could argue that's the championship, but I would argue that we're probably going to come into a run of games at some point without looking at the fixtures where, you know, we'll have, I don't know, a Leeds and Southampton within the space of four or five games, and then Leicester will, you know, we'll have to rock up to Leicester.
00:16:38
Speaker
It just feels temporary. And I don't know if I can get on board with that longer term. And I think the wider part of that, I know it's something that you mentioned to me on WhatsApp the other day, is
00:16:53
Speaker
feels temporary for a lot of people. And I think if we carry on like this, there is still, like, you know, while we put the euphoria, it's probably, you know, kind of a really over the top way to describe Saturday, but if we put that to one side, and we just kind of step back a bit, there is still a general apathy around the football club, there is still this sense of drift,
00:17:18
Speaker
And I think supporters are feeling that. And you look at the Sheffield Wednesday match. What do you reckon? Three and a half, 4,000 spare seats there, maybe? It was ridiculous. I've never seen a road like it. Yeah, maybe more. I'd be surprised if it was more than 21.
00:17:36
Speaker
I mean, noticeably it was actually the city stands been basically been pretty sparse since it's been cold, which is fair enough and kind of happens regularly. But also the Norwegian Peterbrush. I mean, that was really sparse on Wednesday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, whenever it was. Hang on, which stand are you referring to as the Norwegian Peterbrineau? Is that not the river end?
00:18:02
Speaker
It's the Regency security stand. I just had to get you to remind me which stand that is. So the river end, we all know what that means, let's just stick with that. Yeah, let's go there. So the river end was really patchy, top and bottom on Wednesday. And yeah, six down has been, it was a
00:18:25
Speaker
It was a really bizarre reaction to the preceding game where you could audibly hear yawns during that nil-nail and everyone just sort of, at the final whistle there was the tiniest one and a half seconds of boo from those who were cross.
00:18:43
Speaker
But the majority just stood up and just quietly walked to the end of the row and walked down the steps and just turned their back and just went home because it just sort of felt like, ugh, I mean, that's, you know, could have been doing a Christmas shopping. Yeah. Could have been cleaning the car. Could have, could have done a couple of dump runs. Could have trimmed the hedge. Could have put that Christmas reef up on the wall I've been meaning to, which I finally got round to yesterday.
Community Support & Mental Health
00:19:07
Speaker
you know it is just um it was so the apathy was i like you said never seen caroed life for an ek i've never heard of final whistle with that met with that kind of apathy i mean it's just like oh that happened didn't it whereas it was better on wednesday because the performance was better when they were obviously there were goals and i you know cheffa wednesday brought
00:19:28
Speaker
I think, Sheffield, Preston were trying to stop the three game losing streak by parking the bus. I mean, you know, scum thought we parked the bus on Saturday. My goodness me. I mean, Preston were literally just like.
00:19:40
Speaker
Darrant move across the halfway line and we didn't have the quality to break down. Yeah, they still hit the bar, you know, and have a fairly decent chance. Well, Gibbs and Ida, we should have been, you know, we should have been out of sight. Gibbs and Ida missed two really good chances. But I wonder if that's why Gibbs didn't make it on on Saturday because he was being punished for missing the sitter. But the really good thing on the Sheffield Wednesday game was it was actually a bit of a jolly atmosphere and it did send us off into the Derby feeling like you never know there might be a chance.
00:20:09
Speaker
You know, I've been humming and hiring about my my season ticket. And, you know, I have two and they are in the place in the ground where there's no concessions. So the fact that my son is under 16 is irrelevant. And it is it is painful seeing that money leave the account every every month for the quality or lack of the I am watching. And I've spoken, you know,
00:20:34
Speaker
cost of living crisis. No one's got as much money in their pocket as they used to have, irrelevant of what job they're in or what they've done. We are all feeling the pinch. And you know, we're all in the same storm. We're in different boats. I appreciate that. And the pinch is therefore worse in some places. It's a punch. But I'm just asking and talking to my wife about this.
00:20:55
Speaker
Am I, am I renewing in February because there's been someone from my family going to the football since Carrow Road was started hosting North City games. You know, I've had, this is my 30th or 31st season ticket, you know, and then my dad before me and my granddad before him, same side of the ground watching this football team. Is that why I'm going and is that worth the, um, you know, 1200 pounds a year plus
00:21:24
Speaker
getting into the city, plus food, drink, all the rest of it. And then, you know, not not before you even count, you know, going away. I've only managed to get to to film this year, but, you know, is it worth it? And Saturday reminded me that you only need even when we don't play very well, and even when you're celebrating a draw rather than a win.
00:21:50
Speaker
that kind of tradition and that history and that muscle memory of being a Norwich fan and being part of the community of this football club.
00:21:59
Speaker
And that tallied
Norwich's Future & Commercial Plans
00:22:00
Speaker
with, there's several Norwich fans struggling, lots of people struggle at this time of year, but there's one Norwich fan who's being quite open about some kind of mental health struggles that they're having and the support that you see them receiving on social media. Those things combined this weekend made me think, well, yeah, yeah, actually that tradition and that pride and that being part of the community and that sense of belonging and that being, this is what we do.
00:22:25
Speaker
even if it is as dirge, dire, dreadful as this in February. Yeah, probably am renewing because it's just such a huge part of my identity.
00:22:36
Speaker
I don't think I would blame anyone more so than ever, unless they, you know, if you have a huge change in financial circumstances, no one can ever criticize you for stopping any outgoing payment. But any, even people who haven't financially changed their circumstances, I don't think you could blame them at all for just doing something else with their Saturday afternoons. And that's the, that's the risk that
00:22:59
Speaker
kind of when Nappa presents his audit, goodness knows how long it's going to take him, it's not that big a place, colony. Like once he presents his audit, surely the commercial people at the club need to also sort of present back to him that, look, actually the thing you're presiding over has a huge impact on whether or not we sell many tickets in February. There's not going to be a waiting list, I'll tell you that for nothing.
00:23:21
Speaker
I'm not even sure if there's a waiting list now. I think, you know, I went on the way or my two children went on the waiting list and within three weeks, I think had been offered a, you know, a half season ticket. This was kind of halfway through last season and we didn't take it up. And then, you know, they've taken up the two seats this season. But I think I've seen quite a few people comment, Oh, well, it's not as bad as in, you know, and then insert.
00:23:45
Speaker
either Glenn Roder or Chris Hooton's name here, you know, in terms of, oh, look, isn't it awful? Wasn't it awful back then? And it isn't as bad as it was that, you know, and I just I get that argument. But what I can't put my finger on is why it feels like this at the moment, why there is this creeping sense of people just stopping caring. And that's surely that's more dangerous than when people were getting angry about Dean Smith and saying, you know, what his brand of football was.
00:24:15
Speaker
which they were bang right about. The apathy is way more dangerous to this football club because if people just walk away and they feel apathetic about the situation, they're so less likely to come back to it when some better times return. And that's the concern for me is that we are maybe turning off not only some diehard fans, because I've spoken to a couple of people who, similar in your boat, were just like, yeah, do you know what?
00:24:45
Speaker
I'm not sure that I can anymore because I just don't care about it as much. And these are people that have been going for decades. But also their children and the younger fans because increasingly at Norwich it is a club that the younger supporters aren't coming through as much.
00:25:06
Speaker
I wonder whether we will struggle to fill this football ground in the next couple of seasons if things don't get significantly better. And then all this talk of some kind of grandmaster plan to redevelop Carrow Road and turn it into 35,000 capacity or whatever the aspiration is. It's just pie in the sky.
Delia Smith's Leadership & Club Management
00:25:27
Speaker
It's just not even worth entertaining because there will be no return on investment.
00:25:32
Speaker
I wonder how much the club are tapped into that and whether right now, every season, there has probably just been an expectation, well, we'll easily shift 20,000, 22,000 season tickets because that's what people do around here.
00:25:48
Speaker
And I just don't think it's going to happen this season. I think they will probably see like maybe a 3000 drop off and there ain't 3000 people on the waiting list, is there? And it's not like you can incentivize people to get on the waiting list because you've already got people loyal supporters that have paid hard earned money. And then you look at
00:26:11
Speaker
the average matchday ticket as well, and it's not cheap anymore. Well, that's they've got to look at the fact that they're floating a 3% rise with the supporters panel. We're already more expensive than four Premier League clubs. We're already more expensive than the whole division.
00:26:32
Speaker
Exactly. And up four clubs in the Premier League. And it would describe me if it's more than that. No, it is four. So the point is, even if they're in horrible grounds, and there are a couple of horrible grounds in the Premier League, at least the opposition you're going to get every other week is going to be worth watching, even if you're rubbish.
00:26:51
Speaker
And they really have to look at that. This is not the time to ask people to spend even more money on a product that has been so consistently inconsistent, particularly at home. And I think that's the thing they've got to get right in their messaging over the next six weeks is if the results, because what it shows is
00:27:16
Speaker
We're second in the form table, but the reason that we felt those feelings and cared that much about Saturday was tradition and history and pride and geography and tribal allegiances, right? It wasn't because we were second in the form table and we were riding a rave of Wagner's army. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like under Lambert or under Farka, where we'll run through a brick wall for this bloke.
00:27:39
Speaker
We keep saying, and we've been saying this throughout all of our criticism, he seems like a lovely man. He seems to really get the area. He seems to really love the community better than some of our previous numpties that have been managers of this football club. He genuinely seems to fit the bill outside of maybe getting us playing football that we like.
00:27:57
Speaker
like I thought the way they handled the Derby was terrific. I thought everything he said was important. How he, you know, he, there are so many people who try and say things like, oh, it's just another game. It's worth the same three points. We know it's important to the fans, but we need to stay professional. Now he went right into it and said, no, I've said to the players, I asked them who put up their hands and who's been part of this. You need to now talk to the others about why this is important. This isn't like another game. You do have to raise your level.
00:28:21
Speaker
And I thought the players repaid him back for that. And obviously, no, he's using the press conference. There's a new podcast that our friend Dave Carolan has started doing with Gary Rauert breaking the lines. And one of their first episodes, they talked about the uses of press conferences and how it's now normal to try and feed. Obviously, Ferguson was the master of this. Mourinho has been doing it for years. But now at every level of football, you try and get your message out to the fans via press conferences. But I feel that the players backed up
00:28:50
Speaker
They behaved in a way that seems to me that that wasn't just a press conference performance. Actually, that was the way that they'd approached the game and the way they were considering the game. One thing I do want to talk about with you, because we are both, you know, Delia defenders and always have been because we sort of see through the where's the money gone? You know, you know, she's taken all the money. She just needs to step aside and sell it to all of the 15 people queuing up to buy it and pump millions of pounds in.
00:29:19
Speaker
We've always defended her. I'm really concerned by the, and it's part of this conversation around the club need to be attuned to the fact that 3,000 people might say no thanks in February.
00:29:34
Speaker
The comments at the AGM does not suggest that the club are aware that actually it's not a small minority or unhappy. I will defend Delia whatever happens because of the amount of time she has called things right, put the right people in charge, put the wrong people in charge for the right reasons and can forgive all of that.
00:29:58
Speaker
But she's miles off on the idea that there's a minority who have got quibbles with the football club. I think if we took that quote, the 20% quote, in isolation, I think there's many different ways that you can skin that.
00:30:18
Speaker
And I think that the way the majority of the fan base have chosen to skin that is, it's only 20% that are pissed off with how it is right now. And I think what Delia, Michael, you know, whoever it is at the football club has maybe tried to articulate in the, oh, it's 20% wingers is
00:30:37
Speaker
It is probably around about 20% of people that actively will go out and winch at any one time. And they may be, you know, divorcees from the snake pit or whatever. But I think that 80% of the crowd will either sit on their hands or will get behind the team.
00:30:56
Speaker
I think that's what she was trying to articulate. But, you know, people saying that they kind of felt an increasing sense of division and there was almost an entitlement and they didn't know what was going on. But she also mentioned in that interview, and I think Michael might have touched on it as well, that she'll go in the lion and castle after most games.
00:31:17
Speaker
And actually, I was in there after the Preston game, she was in there, she was actively engaging with supporters. You know, I said hello, she asked me, you know, kind of how she went, oh, that was a bit better, wasn't it? And I kind of made a face like, not really, you know, like in the final third, but you know, she wanted she loves, you know, you know,
00:31:36
Speaker
Delia and Michael love talking about football with Norwich City fans so I think that some of that is taken out of context and some of it is actually there are 15-20% of our supporters that do not necessarily enjoy but the way in which they
00:31:52
Speaker
show their displeasure or angst or whatever it might be is that they will berate people or get onto it. And there have been lots of times this season where you can't blame them because it has been pretty shit and it's dire and there's just a feeling of almost of dread, you know, like, you know, when you turn up there, it's like, going back to your point about, you know, why do I do this to myself all the time? You know, sometimes it is out of blind loyalty.
00:32:19
Speaker
And also sometimes it's just because I like to have a nice day out with my daughters and the football is a part of that. But I think some of the content that she put out there was right, but I think the way in which it has been perceived. And also, go back to fair play to Connor from The Pink and for asking the question in the way that he did.
00:32:41
Speaker
I think the way that it's been perceived as being, all right, well, it's only 20% of people that are pissed off. And I would really, really like to think that that's not the perception within the football club, because if it is, it's dangerous. It's really dangerous. Norwich is a nice fan base that will not
00:33:04
Speaker
quickly turn and will not quickly really get onto people. And you mentioned about Wagner's personality and all the rest of it. He's been afforded a lot more time than maybe Dean Smith, to be fair, because of the way that he's actively engaged with the fanbase.
00:33:21
Speaker
But to suggest that it would be 20% of people that are pissed off and the other 80% are people who are just fine with everything and it's all tickety boo would would be quite the assumption to make. So I don't think it's that. I just think it sometimes is in the messaging that we've been here before.
00:33:39
Speaker
There's been interviews with, you know, the Times a couple of times where their quotes have either been taken out of context or they've said things that maybe, do you know what, like with the benefit of hindsight, they might have thought about rephrasing.
Stuart Webber's Impact & Future Direction
00:33:51
Speaker
But I think it's come across to people like they might be out of touch with the feelings in the fan base and
00:33:58
Speaker
I just, I don't think that that's the case. I do think they are attuned to things. I just think that they are hardened to some of this and they have been through this before. And sometimes you've just got to play it with a bit of a straight bat and just see it out. And look, our supporters are way better than some of the dickheads that
00:34:18
Speaker
pretty much accosted them as they arrived at Portman Road on Saturday. And so I think we should, there's a brilliant article on the website today that Nathan Hill has written, which has put that into stark contrast. I know it's not the majority of Ipswich fans, but it's pretty disgusting behaviour when you think that's two people in their 80s. And Ben as well, their driver, the way in which they were treated was disgusting. And I think it's
00:34:45
Speaker
It's a sad indictment of sometimes where the Ipswich fan base go. But anyway, I'm blathering. But I think the point is that I don't genuinely don't believe that the way in which that quote has been taken and
00:35:03
Speaker
embellished a little bit was the intention behind it because they are supporters like you and I, you know, they will be the first to say that, you know, that they they hand their football club or, you know, our football club over to people that are experts in how it should be run and they trust them to do it. And I guess my only worry is maybe that some of what was said felt a little bit Stuart Webber esque.
00:35:34
Speaker
And I think the longer he's away from this football club, probably the better in terms of the acoustics in terms of what's coming out. And one minor point on that, and this is just really to highlight it because actually I was really pleased that it happened.
00:35:50
Speaker
But yesterday at the nest, Ben Napper is in attendance, you know, watching the women's team. And this is part of this full audit. But you're like, that's miles away. Stuart Webber never, to my knowledge anyway, attended a match at the nest. I'm sure he's been up the nest. He was busy. He was busy giving up food at home in shelters, wasn't he? Every time they played.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, obviously. Yeah, that's definitely what it was up to. Look, Stuart Webber was a very busy man who worked incredibly hard for this football club. I don't think we've had a massive debrief on him since he left.
Women's Team Growth Opportunity
00:36:24
Speaker
And I think there's, you know, look, that is a really complex story, which is something that we could probably pour over for a lot longer than we've got for this particular pod.
00:36:32
Speaker
but it just felt really right actually that the sporting director was like no he's assuming responsibility for both the you know the men's and the women's team and you'd like to think now that he is going to take some of the really excellent practice that he's seen at Arsenal Football Club and then put a bit of that into to Norris City Football Club and hopefully you know completely professionalised
00:36:57
Speaker
the operation, you know, kind of in a number of different ways. Well commercially it makes perfect sense to be aiming to be, you know, to be playing in the Premier League equivalent of the women's game because if we're able to do that, if we're able to have like a inverted commas, proper fully professional competitive
00:37:16
Speaker
female team, then that pumped more funds into the overall football club. There's more fans that might go to both the men's and the women's games. It's not going to be difficult to get people to come and watch at the Nest if they are playing a higher and higher and higher standard of opposition.
00:37:36
Speaker
And that can only be a good thing for the community, the area, and the fact that football, you said a great phrase earlier in terms, that's what people do around here. Whether that be the men's team, whether that be the women's team, the point is it would be great for that to continue growing commercially.
00:37:51
Speaker
he should be being given, this was the weird thing with Weber's comments about it as well. It's like, this is a growing commercial arm of the club of all of the, you have to fight tooth and nail the men's team to add half a percent in terms of like growth or revenue based on what you've done previously. You know, we always used to joke with Ben Kenseth about this, that, you know, he would, you know, he would put sponsorship on the, on kind of the hand dries in the toilets if he could, like he really, you know, he really did really out everything.
00:38:20
Speaker
And Cara Road was a knife under him, literally to slap it on absolutely everything. It's so hard to make more money, whereas in the women's game, that is the ceiling in terms of potential growth commercially that you can have within that team is massively untapped. So just one more thing I want to talk about in terms of current and looking back prior to looking ahead to the Christmas fixtures
Johnny Rowe's Derby Performance
00:38:45
Speaker
is
00:38:45
Speaker
and Johnny Rowe. We can't let this kind of opportunity to praise him go amiss. Now, he hardly had a kick. I think it was his eighth touch he scored the first goal with. He just wasn't involved, but he is having the sort of season, and obviously, he obviously now goes down in Norwich Law as someone who scored a double on Derby Day, but there isn't...
00:39:09
Speaker
I've always had this thing about it's important who scores the goals in terms of how that affects the team, how that affects the fans, how that affects your approach for the game. I think it was important the equalizer was scored by Johnny Rowe because it was like he's effectively our current talisman.
00:39:26
Speaker
really. He's the guy that's in form. He's the guy that we feel would get into most other 11s, him and Sara. And so you think, okay, if anyone's going to school, we want it to be you. And the fact that he got them both, and the fact that they were both, one had a slice of luck, one had a hilarious VAR offside lines be drawn by salty fans from down south scummers over the weekend. Did that happen? Did they actually do that on the
00:39:50
Speaker
Of course they've got their crayons out, obviously they've got their crayons as well. Pathetic, pathetic excuse for a fan base. Anyway, we've got him and we're proud of him and he is from the academy and he is a real talent because even on an off day when he's hard to get in the ball, he scores two derby goals. I think we've just got to give praise to someone who is putting together one hell of a breakthrough season.
00:40:14
Speaker
I also think as well that yeah, you're right. He didn't have the best of games. He barely got a touch in terms of attacking output short of his two goals. There's barely anything there. It was on El Hernandez esque, you know, kind of aside from the two goals.
00:40:29
Speaker
But he packed it up because he'd given it the big one on social media before that. And then, you know, to actively be shushing the Ipswich fans after both goals, I was like, yeah, OK, you are winning yourself a lot more fans, you know, kind of as a result of this.
00:40:47
Speaker
and he's quite he's quite easy to love I think isn't he you know obviously he's he's a youth product he's come through but I think there's a whole backstory which I hope the club will tell at some point in some detail and I hope that he will be
00:41:03
Speaker
Candid enough to share with supporters but we know from speaking to people around it that he's had a really difficult upbringing that you know maybe even up until recently you know kind of this breakthrough season that you know this hasn't been the easiest time for him and maybe the club have had to nurture him in a way that is different to say your
00:41:24
Speaker
typical lad who'd been, you know, honed through academies from the age of nine or ten. You know, this was a lad who's had a really tricky start in life and he seems like he's pretty humble about the whole situation at the moment. He seems like he's absolutely loving it and he seems like
00:41:40
Speaker
he really enjoys being part of this football club and this football team and that shouldn't be underestimated and we go back to Wagner and the kind of charm offensive that he did with supporters which has maybe bought him a little more time
00:41:55
Speaker
Players still seem like they're keen on him. When you look at that celebration between Wagner and Ida and then the bundle at Ashton Gate, they're the kind of moments that had that having included Daniel Farker, shall we say. We have to mention him sometimes in this podcast.
00:42:16
Speaker
People would have gone absolutely nuts for it. They would have devoured that kind of content. To be honest, I did, because the thing is, I love Norwich winning, I love late winners, and I like as a human being and as being the manager of our club, I like David Wagner. I like him a lot. I've got an issues with him as a bloke, and he says, and this is the massive, massive difference between him
00:42:41
Speaker
and your Odes, your Smiths, your Hughtons, I don't cringe during any of his press conferences. He doesn't come out and say, I thought that was a brilliant performance when it wasn't. He doesn't come out and say ridiculous things that you know are just patently untrue.
00:42:56
Speaker
I don't know. Recently, he's come out and said a couple of things where I'm like, mate, you're watching a different game. But that's when it was really bad. And it was like, actually, he kind of had to say something because he couldn't have just gone. Yeah. Yeah. Like he couldn't, you know, he had to draw some positives. And some of that is, you know, you say about using presses for messaging and, you know, the fans and playing squad, you know, kind of listening to that.
00:43:21
Speaker
But I think it's clearly taken a bit of a toll on him as well, you know, in terms of this pressure, because I looked at him and obviously he was pensive and he was probably anxious on Saturday.
Idah's Improvement & Key Player Potential
00:43:32
Speaker
He looked like an older man on Saturday, whereas actually, if you look at him when he first joined the football club,
00:43:42
Speaker
spirited youthful smiley that wasn't him on saturday he looked like he'd aged about five to ten years in the space of what he's been at this football club like 13 months something like that so i do you know i enjoy it when he's he gets results because actually he's quite easy to like you know a bit like johnny roe you were just making that point
00:44:03
Speaker
Well, you had to go full circle. Johnny Rowe clearly likes playing for David Wagner as well. And we can go back to one of David Wagner's first acts as the head coach of this football club, which if you go back on the video was, I think, to actually tweak Johnny Rowe's nipples at Colney for some unknown reason. Just like, we need you fit. And then he seemed to tweak his nipples. So those lads, for some reason, have some kind of weird bond and I am here for it. Yeah.
00:44:32
Speaker
Yeah, that winner Ashton Gate came up just after I declared that Eda doesn't score difficult goals. And, you know, we never say anything other than we don't know what we're talking about. We never from podcast one suggested we have any kind of skill to be doing the thing that we're doing right now.
00:44:54
Speaker
Wow, what an immediate answer. That was such a fantastic strength, power, pace, speed, positioning. He had to get it all right in order to get the finish right and fantastic. I do think he's missed a couple of absolute citizens then, but it's important to point out when you are proven wrong and that very much did prove that point wrong.
00:45:15
Speaker
We need to see a lot more of it, but it's great that he has got it in his locker and he did seem to be playing with a bit more confidence. For example, some of his hold-up play in the tiny little glimpses of passages of play we had on Saturday, he did have a couple of nice takedowns and he clearly is strong when he gets his position right.
League Standing & Upcoming Fixtures
00:45:31
Speaker
I think there's also, to add to that, if you're going to dip out one striker right now from the current, you know, kind of two that are up there, it'd be Ashley Barnes. Ashley Barnes was quite poor on Saturday, actually, if we're talking about overall performances, but Ida,
00:45:44
Speaker
his touch looks a lot better, his confidence looks a lot better, his athleticism and strength, he seems to be trying to impose himself a bit more. So it does look like Colney there may be starting to mould him into the player that we hoped he might be. And if he can just add a few goals to that, then yeah, I don't know, Ida and Saj up front, I'll take that.
00:46:06
Speaker
So Norwich are 10th in the table, unbeaten in the last four, and obviously only one loss in the last, what's it, six, seven now, and only two points now away from seventh. You used to make that sixth, didn't you? No, you're saying seventh. Well, no, because basically I'm just saying that there is a real sandwich of teams, because also we're only two points above 14th, so you're pointing about us being between 10th and 16th as a squad.
00:46:37
Speaker
The games coming up, the Christmas period is often important and sets you up for a good start to the year. We've got a real feast or famine in terms of league position coming up. We face Huddersfield and Millwall who are both really struggling, but we've also within that got two of the playoff teams, West Brom and Southampton, before an FA Cup trip to Bristol Rovers, sorry, before we host Bristol Rovers in the FA Cup.
00:47:05
Speaker
And then Hull City, again, another playoff team. Then West Brom, one of those weird quirks where you sometimes play someone for the first time, then you play them again quite quickly. For example, I saw that Scum have got Leicester twice in five weeks as well. And then we have Leeds. So we basically, one, two, three, four, five. So five of the next eight or nine games are against teams currently in the playoffs.
00:47:29
Speaker
So, you know, whilst I think we're likely to have a decent Christmas period, because I think we'll have too much probably for Huddersfield and for Millwall, West Brom is tricky, Southampton is very tricky, so let's say we split over that period, the following ones coming up against Hull and Leeds, you know, and then West Brom again, you can easily see, depending on Sargent's timing and how much of an impact he can make when he does come back,
00:47:55
Speaker
you can easily see a four or five game win this period coming. And that might be when they twist. Maybe that's when he's finished his audit. Well, yeah. I mean, you'd love it not to be the case. You'd love us to keep picking up results. You'd love us to start to play with... There is no reason for the players not to have confidence based on... Because results drive confidence more than performances do.
00:48:23
Speaker
When your team is losing, unluckily, two or three times in a row, you'll hear managers say, well, no, there's lots of positives to take from today. And I'm hoping that will give the lads confidence that we've played really well today. We can do that again next weekend. No, the lads will take far more confidence from the fact that we won today. Three points makes you feel like you're a good team. And going up the table makes you feel like you're a good team. And yes, there are some positives to take from good build-up play and creating lots of chances.
00:48:48
Speaker
But I'm hopeful because of all the things we've said about Wagner that I don't understand why they didn't get rid of him.
Squad Changes & Financial Strategy
00:48:55
Speaker
But I'm fascinated to see whether or not he can be the first ever manager that I'm aware of, especially from a knowledge point of view, that once the kind of booze and the you don't know what you're doing for this chance start, can genuinely then have like a second chapter of more good feeling than ill feeling.
00:49:18
Speaker
like you know no manager lasts forever but at the same time can he have another 18 months at the club because actually he does manage to have a kind of rebirth in January and gets playing good football again he seems like one of the nicest guys possible that could do that and and maybe maybe he becomes
00:49:37
Speaker
the yardstick to which future managers who are struggling is compared. We basically say, well, remember, in a few years time, you might say, remember Wagner would have been sacked if he wasn't so brilliant at playing the fan communication element and being such a decent, thoroughly great guy that bought him the time to then kind of reset, find a new philosophy and go again. Who knows? I mean, that's me being very, very cut half full after a positive result of the weekend. But wouldn't that be nice?
00:50:02
Speaker
I mean, that'd be lovely. I can't see it happening. I think that the group of games that you highlight there against playoff chases or, you know, maybe even automatic promotion chases in Leeds and Southampton, that's the real litmus test. And I think if we go five or six games without a victory, I think that
00:50:22
Speaker
Not necessarily the crowd is ready to turn again, but it might just be the body of evidence that is required, as you say, to make a change. No shows against Daniel and Russ will be particularly painful for the board to swallow.
00:50:35
Speaker
yeah increasingly it just feels like we need to write off this season but then because I just don't I can't see us making an assault on the playoffs at all I know you'll be way more optimistic than that but I just I just can't see with everything that we've encountered thus far I don't see evidence to suggest that that would be possible or probable it's possible but not probable
Midfield Reinforcements Needed?
00:50:59
Speaker
So it's almost like, right, well, it's the great reset again, isn't it? And we need to change the age profile of the squad. We probably need to change the head coach. And all of that doesn't get done in one or two transfer windows. So we're in it for the long haul. And I just can't see how that can be. David Wagner, I don't see that as anywhere near enough evidence that
00:51:21
Speaker
that he's the man to to do that because he's kind of been given that opportunity and he plumped for short-termism and if you plump for that then you've got to get the results. Yeah he might have been the face for short-termism because maybe Weber was pushing for short-termism knowing himself that his tenure at the club was going to be short-term and that might be again depending on if he's still here
00:51:47
Speaker
that audit that we know Knapp is doing. It'd be interesting to see how public any elements of that is made. It'd be interesting to see whether or not he says, in the audit, I want to highlight these three talking points and go to the local press with it and explain to the players that I think these are the areas of strength we need to build upon and these are the areas of weakness we need to address. He's not going to slag off the age of the squad in public half of the season. He's not going to say we need to remodel the age of the squad massively, too publicly. He can allude to it.
00:52:17
Speaker
But yeah, it will be interesting to see what happens in January as to whether or not we try and shift one in or shift two out in order to rebuild for next year. If we take a SARRA and a ROA for if one come in, then all of a sudden that makes it clear that NAPPA's intentions are rebuild and remodel. Whereas if we try and find a defensive guy, I tell you who I really like to look off and that was
00:52:45
Speaker
I thought he was the best player in the pitch. I thought in terms of someone to play alongside Sarah or Kenny or Nunez, he looked like exactly what we're missing.
Team Cohesion & Player Commitment
00:52:58
Speaker
And it makes me again think about foreshore.
00:53:01
Speaker
Again, that's yet another attempt at that. It's just a weird one that just seems to have not worked out at all. He's got next to no. He's not even coming. He's an ideal person in theory to come in on Saturday, but he would prefer Tony Springitt.
00:53:15
Speaker
I mean, I know we're bouncing around, but those subs were baffling. Like if you bring Tony Springer and Poeta on as your new left side to see out a game and look, we saw out the game. So this isn't me grumbling, but it's just me going, whoa. That is a really a damning assessment of where this squad is at.
00:53:36
Speaker
I understood, I can see the logic of Poheta in the Coventry game where he broke forward and put the ball across for Ida to score the goal that kind of put the icing on the plate. We were increasingly looking to defend it and he's not a defender. That was the bit for me. I could probably see more because actually he would probably be a bit more dogged. The logic I had on it was what Hernandez did
00:54:03
Speaker
very well was he was an outlet and Chris Sutton almost made a joke where he did make a joke of it in the commentary saying, you know, Norwich's only outlet seems to be Hernandez needs to dribble the entire length of the pitch. I was like, yeah, I think that's the plan. I think that is exactly what their hope is going to happen.
00:54:19
Speaker
And I think maybe he tried to do that on the left-hand side as well, basically saying, we've now got an outlet. If there's any chance of us getting a third, it is going to be a breakaway. So I'm going to put the two lads who can run the fastest to hopefully get there. And maybe one of the tired lads can get up there and knock it in. But, you know, taking barns, keeping barns on and taking the heater off, I thought was strange again. You don't know if there's been a knock. We've got the result we wanted. It might just be because it's the time of year and it might just be because he's a lovely guy.
00:54:48
Speaker
I don't know why he managed to keep his job when the form was so bad. I don't think the playing form has got any better. But the results suggest that there is definitely a team working for him, playing for him. They are celebrating the goals hard. I mean, they are celebrating the goals like we are in the top three. They are celebrating clean sheets. They are celebrating big saves. And there does seem to be a real togetherness in the team, which
00:55:15
Speaker
Again, when you compare, and that's the sort of thing that Napa is seeing when he's walking around the building with no one else watching, if, if, you know, and Barnes coming out and saying, you know, it's us that got to take responsibility and McLean really push it, banging the responsibility drum when they were losing. I do wonder,
00:55:31
Speaker
I do wonder how much that is having an effect. Maybe unlike your previous people, Alex Neil and Putin and others, we know lost the dressing room because that came out before they even left each time. Maybe just genuinely he is.
00:55:47
Speaker
They are a cohesive unit. They are together. And that means that until it is three defeats on the spin or four defeats from five, it's going to remain safe. And if that's the case, we can only hope that the points keep getting collected and the small snippets of decent football we play continue to expand.
Conclusion & Holiday Greetings
00:56:07
Speaker
But anyway, it is the new Christmas, so I wish you a very happy Christmas, John. Thank you so much. I wish you a very happy and healthy new year to all of your multiple children and your singular wife. And listeners, thank you for joining us for another year of wittering on. This has been the Christmas special. I have been Tom. This has been Punk. Merry Christmas. Happy new year. And mind how you go.