Transcript
John S: Good morning. Welcome to the business of machining back in Ohio and Toronto. ah My name is John Saunders. This is episode number 384.
johngrimsmo: And my name is John Grimsmo.
John S: everything there was out of order. I'm sorry.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it's fine. It's fine.
John S: It's great. It's all good. ah We talk each week. We record 99 % of what we talk about because I think it was Rob Lockwood that just said you guys should turn that into a podcast and the feedback we got from IMTS is phenomenal because I will be too honest and tell you I need that.
John S: It's still nice to hear. I think a lot of people, this may sound horribly arrogant, a lot of people i think look up to us and say complicated things. It doesn't mean it's so nice to hear the feedback of like, hey, it's nice to see people are in the trenches, too, or struggling with stuff, or wondering about decisions.
John S: And um its it was wonderful to to get that feedback.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John S: I shared that with John before he recorded, because ah you didn't get the chance to see that in person. And and that's a distant second hearing it from me then versus hearing it from all the viewers.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely. I got to hear some of it at blade show which is a knife show, not a manufacturing show, and there were some people that came up to us and said, I really like the podcast because they're in manufacturing to customers or other vendors.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um But I know at IMTS it's probably, you know, 10 times 100 times more that direct feedback from the podcast, which is utterly fantastic and you know we share it.
johngrimsmo: mostly to help each other work through problems and and have somebody to bounce ideas off of and get perspective, perspective is everything.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um But we also do in the back of our minds know that this makes an impact and we want to help progress this industry which is super critical to us.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: It's like I've found the industry that I love more manufacturing than knives, but I love knives, too. So I get the fact that I get to make knives is like, oh, it's icing on the cake for me.
John S: Yeah, right, right.
johngrimsmo: But as a business, it's the manufacturing side, the machines, toolpaths, the people, the vendors, the material, cutting everything, planning it's is is on.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Prototyping everything is so much fun for me. um Finding out the best way to make a thing and then inventing a new thing and finding the best way to make that thing. And then getting stuck and asking a friend and phoning a friend and and saying, how do I do this?
johngrimsmo: I know you've done it for something totally different, but how does it apply to me? And I love all.
John S: Yeah, yeah. Well, and what we were talking about for three minutes before we hit record was all of those thorny topics. It actually was ah top of mind because I ah just got an email from one of our suppliers, a blast email that's like, we really appreciate when our customers pay on time.
John S: And I was kind of like, oh, I'm making a note about like, okay, so how do other people handle this? And
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: um I know you and I've talked about that before, but it just goes back to you know just how important cash flow is from day -to -day business operations, but kind of from a, I don't know how to like really say this, but um You, Warren Buffett says like a fortress balance sheet, but basically like I can't fail because I have the balance sheet or the cash to weather the storm.
johngrimsmo: Interesting.
John S: I have the weather, you know failed R and &D projects or something that takes longer or decisions you want to make. And um i always i was I looked up to that and I knew that the people that I looked up to also kind of had that ethos.
John S: And yeah, it means you're leaving some money on the table or you're leaving some, you know, you could be criticized because you're not putting that money to work if you're just having it.
johngrimsmo: oh
John S: but Let me tell you, life's great like that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah. And that's where we kind of struggle. We're, you know, we're doing well, but there's not that fortress of, of safety net, let's call it. And we're growing, we're reinvesting everything back in the company as we can, but you know, I want, that's a, that's a great thing.
John S: yeah the best we've been but
johngrimsmo: I want that fortress, like 100%.
John S: When it doesn't, you don't, I mean, short of like inheritance or whatever, winning a lottery, you don't just get get a fortress on a personal level. So it's, I'm less concerned about the outcome and like all the goal topics we've had over the years, it's more about what are you doing today or this week or next week to to start um yeah putting some aside.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's like a mentality, a goal, a a way of thinking and a way to manage your money and and make enough money to make sure that becomes a reality.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, cause the end of the day of business, I heard, I heard it said a business that's not profitable is going out of business. That's like dangerous, you know, even just holding still is like not helping, not going to last.
John S: Yeah, yeah.
John S: Yeah, on the flip side, I remember meeting somebody years ago who was like, I wasn't actually, I think he was telling the story about somebody else. It wasn't making enough money as, I don't know, I think it was a machinist or something, maybe a salesperson and so kind of switched solely to Chase bucks. And look, you know, if you're doing that as a means to an end to get somewhere else fine, but I'll tell you,
John S: you could offer me buku bucks to go be a machine tool salesman. Actually, there's part of me that actually would kind of enjoy some of that to be clear, like but ah you know, it's it's I love working myself and me working with other people where it's like, look, yes, you for sure, money matters and you need to earn it.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John S: But on the flip side, it's like the joy of what you just said, like doing what we do.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Like, great, like i could I think we jokes. I could go make X amount selling insurance, like zero zero chance that's happening.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Well, one of our employees did actually a year or two ago.
John S: Really?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Oh, man.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Yeah. um and No, for sure.
johngrimsmo: But that's, that's how it goes. and
John S: You gotta do what you gotta do.
johngrimsmo: You got to do it exactly. And that's how it worked out. and And he was great for whatever, three years here, Fraser. And then got a deal he could not turn down for his growing family. And he's like, yeah, OK.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And he's crushing.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: He's having so much fun.
John S: Let's get, if that's happening, great, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, but I couldn't do that.
John S: Yeah. Yeah. How are you?
johngrimsmo: Things are steady. Things are good. um had an interesting problem that took me a while to chase down. So on our knives, we um when you open the knife and the lock bar gets in the way of the blade and locks the blade open, um we have a hardened stainless steel lock bar insert that is machined and threaded in.
John S: OK.
johngrimsmo: um pretty intricate little part and we back chamfer the holes and the profile in two separate operations and for a good while that I wasn't aware of the back chamfer was undercutting significantly like five thou but it's a tooth out chamfer or something so like it was undercutting hard so they took significant effort to sand down buff down like it's a very little part the size of half of a quarter like
John S: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: It's small. You could probably fit two of them in size of a quarter. um And it looks bad, and it's hard to rework, and we had dozens of these that we'd been making for quite a while. And so the guys replaced the tool, and I found out one of the flutes was chipped. One flute isn't going to make it do that. Replaced the tool, kept doing it, made a whole other batch of parts. And then I dug in and investigated it, and I was talking to Sky about it. I'm like, wow.
johngrimsmo: I doubt it, but I've seen it before where the actual end mill design changes over time.
John S: No.
johngrimsmo: And it's like a new rev, and but it's probably not that. So I took it over to our optical comparator, which thankfully has glass scales on it.
John S: Mhm.
johngrimsmo: And it's like super, super accurate. And we have the computer vision system hooked up to it with the little fiber optic cable that can touch sense like edges and stuff and actually map outlines.
johngrimsmo: So I took it over that and I mapped out this thread mill. it's um 98 thou thread mills, a pretty small thread mill that we use for back chamfering because it goes inside the hole in backcham for um and And I found an old one in our scrap bin and I picked up a new one and the the two are under microscope, you know, different, visibly different. One has the four flutes gashing down the neck shank quite a bit um as like a spiral that you could visibly see it something changed. And then also the
johngrimsmo: So a treadmill is like a little bit flat on the bottom and then you're 60 degree and then 60 degree and then neck shank, right?
John S: Yep.
johngrimsmo: The distance from biggest diameter of your triangle to end was different by five thou between these two reps, which is in our case more than enough to cause problems.
John S: Yep.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: And, uh, I started looking at this and I'm like, no way it was actually that and just. No warning, no heads up, like rev change kind of thing. And then in my mind, I'm like, are they all going to be like that?
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: If I change my programs to accommodate this new end mill, is it going to hold? Are they all going to be like that? Or do we have to actually check every single end mill that comes in the shop on the optical comparator just to be sure we don't ever have this problem again?
johngrimsmo: I don't know the answer yet, but um it was really cool to be able to measure that 5, 3 tenths um exactly. and comp it in the machine, make the next parts, they are minty perfect.
John S: ah That's six.
johngrimsmo: ah So that was fun. And then it was weird, the problem like half went away. Like the profile was but good, but the back chamfer of the holes was still bad. on on the next batch.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it took me a second. Sky and I were talking about it yesterday and we're like, okay, that's kind of weird, but then the next batch was fine. Oh, it's because it chamfers the holes in op one and then the back sides in op two after we change screws and fixturing things like that.
johngrimsmo: And the tool was changed between those two ops, right?
John S: No country.
johngrimsmo: So anyway, problem solved for now, but when you start to rely on everything being within
John S: Yeah, right, right.
johngrimsmo: thousandths of each other or less tool to tool kind of thing.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And you build your whole process around it. And there is an unforeseen change kind of throws you for a loop and you go, it makes you question everything about life.
John S: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: You know, I'm trying to be consistent, but if everybody around me is not consistent, like.
John S: Well, then this goes back to the whole like major shortcoming in two libraries is, okay, you figured out what you need to change on this tool, but what programs use it?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: What do you do?
johngrimsmo: And if, if only there was some linked tool library that actually, yeah, that's a good point.
John S: I know. Yeah. um
johngrimsmo: Cause I'm holding this new tool going, okay, I need to reprogram. Thankfully we only use it on two products, but I have to think that's four programs. That's maybe it's used on something else for some, like on the other hand, it's a treadmill.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's meant to thread a hole. I'm using it as a back jamfering tool. So as a thread mill, this is a non -issue, but in my case.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Is this made by a tool company that starts with an H?
johngrimsmo: No, it's not actually.
John S: Oh, interesting.
johngrimsmo: But one of the other ones, probably your second guess, I won't say but.
John S: OK.
John S: Yeah, fair enough. um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: So the I know I've shared it before, that we came up with this JavaScript thing that creates this Google Sheet file based on setup sheets.
johngrimsmo: oh
John S: And we still use that, and I still like it. But it's actually overkill, just to make sure we're not letting Pride get in the way of results. um All you need to do is, it takes discipline.
John S: but if we So we're doing this right now, because we're tooling up the VF2 for all that aluminum production. It's actually almost done.
johngrimsmo: b That's cool.
John S: we've been killing it. Every part we run on that machine, there's probably 15 parts. um we have We just post the setup sheet to a ah folder.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: and then in that So in that folder, you have about 15 setup sheets. And the great the nice thing about this is if you happen to err on the side of having a part that you no longer make, OK, no big deal.
John S: like It's better to have more sheets there than than miss if you missed one. That's bad. And then all you need to to do is use Windows or or Mac, just search for T35, and you'll see where Tool 35 is used in any of the setup sheets.
johngrimsmo: Can you search all setup sheets at once?
John S: Yeah, if you search in, like I tend to use Windows at work, you just search in Windows Explorer in that folder for T35, and it'll just show you which of the files use it, and then you can pull it up, you can click the operations, and then go
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: in the fold Okay.
johngrimsmo: That's kind of cool.
John S: Yeah. Cause we had this issue with, um, we were getting inconsistent chamfers and I realized the c chamfers on the chamfer tool on the horizontal was effectively a sharp chamfer tool.
John S: And the one that we haven't sold on the V of two has a 40 to 40 ,000 flat, which is, you know, five miles in the chamfer world, uh, of having the wrong chamfers.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: And it was quite laborious to go through and figure out where the tool library definition had to be updated for that thing.
johngrimsmo: Got it. Yeah, if you, excuse me, if you model that flat chamfer tool properly, it works fine. But if it's modeled as a point, then yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna be weird.
John S: um Agreed.
John S: Makes huge chamfers.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Yeah. um yeah
John S: What else? um Good.
johngrimsmo: In, yeah, you say it because I think it's the same thing.
John S: No, you say it.
johngrimsmo: Well, the um hard milling brass blades in this video, which we've talked about, you actually told me many weeks ago, you're like, why don't you just hard mill them? And then you were right.
johngrimsmo: I think it's done. I think it works great. I definitely took my time and I walked it in once out of time, took the blade out, put it back in, walk it in. I'm actually probing the pivot hole on every refix string to make sure that it's aligned properly and getting wonderfully consistent results and literally proving
John S: Okay.
John S: Good.
johngrimsmo: that the blade features are growing through heat treat because I have two test blades with meat leftover and they were both machines at the same time, heat treat at the same time.
John S: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: We didn't necessarily CMM the rough features to see where they're at, but after hard milling them accurately, they are visibly in different locations on the blade.
John S: Oh, wow. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Like ah if the original slot is is here and I'm end milling the end of that slot, um it's off, you know, the diameter is bigger of that feature. On one hand, I don't care because now it's accurate. It's been hard milled to tolerance to accuracy levels, right? On the other hand, it goes, so well, duh, like, okay. Proof right there that.
johngrimsmo: Things do weird things in heat treat and we can't expect, expect you know, 10th accuracy of pre and post heat treat tolerance features, especially on a shape like a blade with pivot and the stop and track and all these weird stress risers and zones and all this stuff.
johngrimsmo: um So that was, that was yesterday. That was very successful to see. And the knives feel great going together.
John S: Good. Doesn't it feel good like...
johngrimsmo: It feels good. And it's, it was actually a really good process for me because it got me to realize so Through hardmilling these four features I can now control four different features of the blade.
johngrimsmo: I can have my knife on me, it's in the car.
John S: Oh.
johngrimsmo: um Apparently you shouldn't bring knives into school so I always leave it in the car. and
johngrimsmo: dropping the kids off. But ah I can control now where the blade sits in the handle when it's closed like up or down ever so slightly because I've got this perfect spot I want. I can compare how close the edge is getting to the backspacer because we've had some chip if we do it wrong.
johngrimsmo: So it's actually smashing the backspacer and chipping a sharpened edge.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: That's no good. So I can control that. And I'm using gauge pins to see what the gap is, which is perfect. So 48 thou is the perfect gap for a rask. um I can control how the detail feels and exactly where it engages based on a specific pin diameter that I choose.
johngrimsmo: And then same for the lockup. I can choose to have this very specific pin that I want instead of within the multiple range that we have.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: um and and how much the blade locks up. And I was able to fine tune that to literally nominal pins and perfect lockup, perfect detent, perfect edge gap. And I was like, this was a lot of work, but it was worth the effort to absolutely dial it. The question becomes, once we run this in production, can it hold? Will it you know ver vary by 1 hour too? Does it matter? No, because we have adjustable pins to make all this work. But I think it's going to be awesome.
John S: And you, but you don't want to do this long term. You still want to figure out the heat treat.
johngrimsmo: This does solve the features moving in heat treat, so we could do it long term because it only takes like three minutes to additional cycle in a fixturing op that we're already fixtured for.
John S: Okay.
John S: Got it.
johngrimsmo: So I kind of don't care. um Warping blades lead to problems in lapping and surface grinding and things like that, where they cup or curl or bend in heat treat.
johngrimsmo: And I would like to solve that.
John S: and So that's a separate issue or problem.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, similar. I mean, it's still metal moving, but it's turning into a warp as opposed to an expansion or contraction of features.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So metal moving in different directions. The warp, it's we've got it I'd say under control, but I know there is still room to improve. um We actually contacted our local heat treat place.
johngrimsmo: And I yeah emailed them and I said, this is what I want to do. I want to sit down with your metallurgist. I'll pay for an hour of time. You know, we've got a plan. I want to bring all my parts in and be like, this is what we're doing. We're imparting stresses here.
johngrimsmo: We're taking them out here. This is our heat read recipe. Like, can we just, I want to pick your brain. And they came back and we go, ah, we're going through a management restructuring and the new team's not coming in for three months.
johngrimsmo: And I don't know if the old team's going to want to get into this and yada.
John S: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: I was like, what? That doesn't help at all.
John S: Sometimes I feel like you got to, like, because you basically, if you're saying like, hey, I want you to share all your knowledge with me, it's kind of like, like, I don't think I know I wouldn't.
John S: I don't think you would say, hey, for 200 bucks, I want an hour of your time to teach me everything you've learned about the current or, or whatever.
johngrimsmo: True.
John S: It's kind of like, ah no, thanks. Like, I don't, not what I do. I don't want the money. i Like, so it's almost like you got to hire
johngrimsmo: Okay. Yeah, I've, I don't know, we have worked with them before and we have talked to their metallurgists before. And I feel like that is kind of what they do. They want to provide solutions, um especially if they can do one of the steps for us, which is part of my, mean my thing.
John S: Oh, okay.
johngrimsmo: If they can stress relief the blades ah in bulk, like imagine we get water jet blades and they go straight there for stress relief and we're doing thousands a year.
John S: Yes.
johngrimsmo: Like, sure.
John S: Got
johngrimsmo: That's, that's, that's how I phrase this.
John S: it.
johngrimsmo: um But even still, it sounds like they're transitioning leadership teams like heavily.
John S: whatever
johngrimsmo: I don't know if they're reorging or bought bought out or something like that, but it was...
John S: just pay him to do some blades. And if they end up warped to be like, Hey, can we talk about this warp?
johngrimsmo: That's a really good idea.
John S: Like don't even mention yourself.
John S: That's kind of what I'm saying is you kind of backdoor into like you're good.
johngrimsmo: Just do it anyway. Yeah, I might have too much too soon.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Sometimes I come on a little strong.
John S: Oh, no, I do the same thing. It's like, I just, I just want to know all this, but you just got to kind of play it cool.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: And, uh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. That's a good idea. I'll send them another email, or literally show up and be like, okay, how do I stress relieve these blades? Or, you know, how do we, what do I have to do to get you to stress relieve these blades? And in the process of that, they're like, well, it's a good idea.
John S: I'm envious that you have a heat reader down the road.
johngrimsmo: Oh yeah, it's two blocks away.
John S: Yes, incredible.
johngrimsmo: And they've got several large vacuum furnaces. um One of our guys is making his own fixed blades on the side. And he's got 12 blades that he wants to have heat treated by them. um They're A2, like we could heat treat them here, but it'd be a day.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, I'd rather just pay a lot fee and have them done.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um And so he called them up and and he's like, I want to get some A2 heat treated. and And she goes, how much do you have? Like knife blades, 12 knife blades. How much do they weigh? because Because it's $110 for the first 100 pounds of whatever.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Right.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, I don't know, five ounces?
John S: four Four pounds.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, like.
John S: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: So.
John S: So on that note, ah I'd love to get your advice. And I know you you've talked to me about this before, but it's been a long time. But we're going to start doing some tests here, hard milling. Same exact same thing, John. It's like what I alluded to last week. It's like, hey, we want to change up Part of the puck chuck let's heat treat it a two, and then let's machine some criticals in a hardened state.
John S: I, I'm sure you told me you're using traditional carbide, not like quote unquote hard mill or night CAD or whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yeah,
johngrimsmo: yeah I mean there are like Lakeshore has their and whatever it's called and something coding.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um NACO coding that is supposedly better for hard milling.
John S: Thank you. Not go.
johngrimsmo: There are fancy companies like NS Tool, Moldino that are like the ones, you know the stuff for hard milling, really expensive.
John S: Yes, Maldino, yeah.
johngrimsmo: But like I was talking to, was it Adam, the machinist? And he said, you you should be able to get hundreds of minutes
John S: Yep. Yep.
johngrimsmo: of hard milling time um with a proper end mill and proper speeds and feeds. And I think he said air and not coolant does make a big difference.
John S: You don't want court.
johngrimsmo: ah Correct.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I'm either ignorant or ignoring that fact, and I still run it with coolant. But
John S: Yeah, because i I think we're gonna do some of this testing on the Willemin, which is an oil machine. I guess you could turn the coolant off it. I don't know.
johngrimsmo: yeah you can turn it off and still run it dry.
John S: Okay, that would work. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: that would work for testing. It makes a lot of dust, so ideally you want an air blast to remove the dust, otherwise you're recutting chips and that's no good either.
John S: Okay.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um We are currently using Deboer tools, which are made here in Toronto, and they have an HV line that are quite affordable and they have whatever coating they put on it.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's like a tan colored coating. And they seem to work quite well for hard milling.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: We use them for a different bunch of different operations. Hard milling itself is not very difficult.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: But hard milling accurately and having tool life that's predictable and reliable is is where I find struggle.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But you could take literally, yeah, I know.
John S: That's exactly what I want.
johngrimsmo: You say you could take any end mill and just hit hard and steel and itll it'll do stuff.
John S: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's not that scary. um But if you want to hold a tenth, or if you want to like contour a feature, or expect a ball mill to last for more than 20 minutes, that's where it starts to get a little sus.
John S: okay
johngrimsmo: But test and tune. Just try.
John S: yeah yeah
johngrimsmo: And it's like, initially, it won't be scary.
John S: what
John S: Yeah, i we did videos over the years. I mean, I was hard milling on a Tormach with those lakeshore tools.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: like I'm not nervous about it, but it's, if I recall, it's crazy low chip loads, crazy light engagement.
johngrimsmo: Totally. You can.
John S: So like three -tenths feet per tooth and five -tenths ah five cents engagement, whether it's because we're going to be surfacing, so it'll be a combination of radial axial.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: That makes sense.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, i I'll do up to a thou. Well, maybe not quite. Yeah, probably five tenths, um like actual engagement or radial engagement, super low chip load, several tenths or less sometimes.
John S: Yeah. Okay.
johngrimsmo: And depending on the size of the tool, tiny, tiny tools need uncomfortably small, like sub one tenth chip load sometimes. um And it just makes dust. Um, and then on bigger tools, like I've got a three eights tool that is roughing the blade bevels.
johngrimsmo: I think I'm taking five thou depth of cut, like width of cut, um, at whatever, 200, 300 SFM.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Um, yeah,
John S: It's good to know. Yeah. So it's not like, mela it's not, it's kind of that normal low range speed for steel.
johngrimsmo: yeah exactly. So like before HSM tool paths, it's like, you know, what everybody said 20 years ago, speeds and feeds kind of low and slow.
John S: Yeah. It's funny. ah Okay. Yeah, I actually will look at the board then too, because we do use some Maldinos for years ago. They're, they were phenomenal, but yeah.
johngrimsmo: Really? I've never bought them, but I feel like I need to for some critical features.
John S: But yeah.
johngrimsmo: And then as far as the coolant, um as far as I understand, you don't want to thermally shock the tool, right?
John S: Cool.
John S: I don't know.
johngrimsmo: Is that is that what it is? um Like coolant is beautiful because it takes the heat away, it flushes the chips away and it lubricates the cut.
John S: Don't know.
johngrimsmo: Whereas a lot of people, articles and everything, they say hard milling, run dry with an air blast, let the tool heat up, let the tool do its job kind of thing.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Air blast to blow the chips away and slightly to keep some cool air on it. But integrating an air blast into a production system on a machine that's traditionally a cool and fed machine is you know a little bit trickier.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Well, the so um the process here is not to solve the problem. It's to just break it down step by step. So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to, we ordered some A2.
John S: We have, we actually have some four going 40 stings because it's a different way of, you got to oil clench it and I don't want to deal with that. So we're going to take some A2 or heat treat it here. We've got that oven works great.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: within heat treating fixtures. I'm totally in love with that. It's just awesome. And then um all we need to do is start machining stuff. And then um we're going to probably rent some CMM time. But I think think we need to buy one. But again, it goes back to I don't want to buy one only to find out hard gauging is actually
johngrimsmo: Right.
John S: not only not Not only appropriate, but like better to do it. So I think the better answer is to rent some CMM time, which, again, is only frustrating because it'll be a week to get as part out results, get it back.
John S: We'll figure it out. um I'd love to.
johngrimsmo: So not not you guys going somewhere and playing, but sending it out and having them soon.
John S: I don't know of one I could get time on within driving distance, so better to just send it out.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. i'm I'm within driving distance.
John S: Actually, yeah, that's not a crazy idea. to
johngrimsmo: ah
John S: to come up, see you and then learn some about the software.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I'd love to have you. um I'm not familiar enough with it to teach you on it, but maybe we could convince Angelo to
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: touch some parts ah like programming takes a while it would be non -productive for us to sit down and watch him do it because it would take like a while you know yeah yeah for now until you realize the capability
John S: I've heard um that's also one of the reason I have a little bit of hesitation is that we really only want to see it in like one feature period. It's kind of like, so not a big deal, but we'll learn.
John S: We can learn, again, put your put your thinking hat on. You know, we're trying to machine a relatively complex dual contact taper, but if we just want to test hard milling accuracy, we can just surface simple parts so we can measure with the tools that we have, hand tools and the height, the military LH600, and you can start to look at tool wear, surface finishes, like plenty we can do before I worry about the bigger challenge of long -term production and tool wear, but to be honest,
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, you can machine a step block and in 1 ,000 increments and see how it holds over 50 passes or whatever.
John S: Yeah.
John S: All right. I didn't even thought about it. You mean just like a, like a, like a Mayan pyramid?
johngrimsmo: All right. Yeah, exactly.
John S: Okay. That's a great point.
johngrimsmo: Why not?
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: I've done that on the Wilhelmin, I turned a stepped thing that just went bigger by 50 ,000 increments or whatever, just to see like how it would hold.
John S: Cause.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it it wasn't dead nuts, but it was pretty good.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Yeah, that's a good point. um So you're not using CBN too late for any of your hard milling, ever.
johngrimsmo: No, I did buy some CBN ball mills and flat mills from McMaster of all places.
John S: McMaster, interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I don't know if they were labeled as NS tool, but they came as NS tool. They're dumb expensive. They're like a hundred plus dollars for a small one 16th inch ball.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um And I still chipped them out um and I wore them down and Adam the Machinist was saying, cbn For hard milling, CBN doesn't necessarily give you a better result, but it might just give you longer tool life if you do it properly.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So when you're machining a big mold and you have say a thousand minutes of tool life and one mold, you don't want to do multiple carbide end mills and have them match because they won't match.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So you maybe you buy the CBN tool that can last for so long and do the whole mold in one pass.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So that's one of the big pushes that he said, which I very much value his opinion.
John S: Yeah, we're doing the tool path will probably be under one minute, and frankly, from a number standpoint, I could afford to do a tool for every one part or five part.
John S: okay yeah mean we're doing ah the toolpath will probably be under one minute and frankly
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: from a number standpoint i could afford to do tool pre one part or five part like so i don't
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: Longer to life would be better, but that's not remotely on the problem list to solve.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: And with um proper inspection of tools, like throw a regular carbide end mill in there and just see what it does, you know, figure out a way to machine a similar feature, but in a wasteful, repetitive fashion, like machine a test part 50 times in a row.
johngrimsmo: You know what I mean?
John S: Yes, yeah.
johngrimsmo: See that last.
John S: Do you think in your experience machining like 50 Rockwell versus 55 versus 60 is different and or easier in difficulty or tool life and so forth?
johngrimsmo: I don't know, because almost everything we do is 58 to 62.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: so i don't I've hardly touched anything under 58.
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Except for the 17 .4 PH that we run all of our pivots and stuff. That comes in at 45, and we turn it perfect. i don't I don't even see it as hard material, because we just turn it so constantly, um even though it is pretty hard.
John S: Yeah.
John S: And that's not CBN, that's regular carbide inserts turning.
johngrimsmo: regular carbide yeah regular through cooling drills and regular turning inserts and stuff. And they tools die faster than they do in titanium, but both star tornos.
John S: Yeah, all right, no big deal. That's Knackers star. Both. Star. Tornos, oh my God, sorry.
johngrimsmo: How dare you.
John S: Wow, sorry, no, ah forgive ah forgive me. Okay, and interesting. ah Good to know.
johngrimsmo: So speaking of which, a week back from IMTS, any, uh,
John S: Okay.
johngrimsmo: any Any lingering feedback, thoughts, like things that keep coming back to your brain?
John S: um Yeah, um I enjoyed hanging out a little bit in the Mitsui Siki booth.
johngrimsmo: o
John S: To be totally honest, the only reason was that Tyler Bond, who used to be at Matsura for years, moved over to Mitsui, and he's just become a friend.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John S: and So just seeing the level of technology that they put into those machines, you know it's a different approach than the German builders, but 600 hours of hand scraping.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: and They have small machines, they have giant machines.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John S: um The one that they had there was One that they had there was large and they'd taken all the sheet metal off and that was a really cool ah way to sew it.
johngrimsmo: Oh, cool.
John S: And then they had a, they had a, what looked like a VF2 size machine that it was a Mitsui -Siki jig board. And this is the machine where it's like,
John S: No joke if you want to hold 50 millionths all day, this is what you buy.
johngrimsmo: way
John S: And talked about you know what are probably relatively obvious points to those that are kind of in the know, which is that there aren't a lot of folks, the folks that were running more jig, I always get the word mixed up, jig bore versus jig grind.
John S: I don't remember which it is even correct. um The folks that ran this for the past 40 years are more than likely retiring soon. And those machines are also not brand new.
John S: I don't know if they even make them anymore.
johngrimsmo: The.
John S: And if proposedly don't know Jig, what I'm talking about is a machine where It has effectively a dynamic boring head. So instead of having a cutting tool, it has a rotating Dremel tool on the end, obviously way more accurate. And instead of it just being able to go up and down like a quill, the actual diameter it's it's interpolating can vary. It doesn't interpolate though. It rotates. It's got better circularity than an interpolation. And is that a decent way of describing it, John?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and the tool is constantly oscillating up and down or side to side on a horizontal machine.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But in a 3 -axis VMC, it's like the tool is moving up and down quite quickly. Kern's been posting a lot of videos of this, too, jig grinding.
John S: Mm -hmm
johngrimsmo: And that's actually how we do our Rask blades in the speedio right now. We don't go nearly that fast. We just 100 inches per minute up and down.
John S: Yeah Yeah
johngrimsmo: But these machines go much faster, and they oscillate the tool up and down and then interpolate the feature while the tool is going up and down. Or they have this weird spiral like path that dynamically makes it cooler.
johngrimsmo: um
John S: but The difference, though, is that a kern on a linear machine, too, can do the interpolation. These are not interpolated. They actually have, I think, it's a u -axis. So the diameter of the circular it's making can change pursuant to g -code.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John S: That, again, makes sense.
johngrimsmo: Kind of.
John S: Well, do you know how on a boring, if you were to use an old school boring bar, you would take a wrench and you would adjust the diameter of the boring head?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John S: That's done via g -code, real time, which is sick.
johngrimsmo: Right. Yeah.
John S: Matsuya is cool. Looking at a Takasawa lathe, I don't think it's going to make sense because I love lathes.
johngrimsmo: You lovely.
John S: It is mostly a joke, folks. I enjoyed it. but the They make a really nice small box way accurately. I don't think it works because the problem with holding, as best I could tell, I'm open to feedback here. The problem is that we want to hold a really tight diameter tolerance post heat treat, which means The problem with lathes is the diameter is going to change based on how the part is held in the, yeah to basically you have to rework hold the part.
John S: Whereas on a mill, um we aren't turning the part, literally not turning the part. So you could surface it in, you could choose to probe it, but even if you surface it in, it doesn't matter if it, let's say that the, let's say it's a counterbore that I'm machining.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John S: If the counterbore is 7 tenths outside of consensual concentricity relative to the OD the part, I actually don't think I even care.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Interesting.
John S: But on a lathe, if you did that, you'd all of a sudden be out, you know, your radial times two, you could be quickly blow your tolerance. I don't think a lathe is gonna make sense here. I looked at the UMC 400.
John S: I asked my house guy if they'd be willing to cut us a deal to swap out our 350 for it. And they kind of said maybe, which I, look, if I'm being honest, I think it's just cause they probably don't want us to keep putting out like content or publicity on the machine that they discontinued.
John S: And I would, I would happily upgrade it to 30 tools and it has a better ah spittle design, but whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John S: And I need to go through my notes and digest a little more, but thank you for asking.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yeah, it looks like everybody had a wonderful time. And me and several others were were sitting here saying, at the Kern booth.
John S: Oh my God, what Danny Rudolf did was was our diamond.
johngrimsmo: Oh, yeah, it's just brilliant.
John S: It was a really, really funny. Yeah, it was great to meet so many people and Dylan and and With Intolerance podcast did a great job on the Kern Instant Machinist Meetup, which was well attended and and went on for hours, which is great.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Yeah, it was good.
johngrimsmo: Excellent.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's about all I got.
John S: Nothing else?
johngrimsmo: I mean.
johngrimsmo: In the lead up to IMTS. ah I was this listening to a couple of the manufacturing podcasts with Intolerance and the Pearson, Henry Holster's one, um and it got me toying with the idea of consultants, right?
John S: Oh yeah, you mentioned this last week.
johngrimsmo: I mentioned that and what's his name?
John S: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Chris Sapatini um has been talked about quite a lot lately and i don't I don't know him personally and I've only just started really following him, but him and other companies and
John S: Yep.
johngrimsmo: a lot of the robot integration companies like Lights Out Manufacturing and Gimbal Engineering and all that. And um it got me wondering what future there is in consultants helping us answer problems, solve challenges, design things, program parts, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know. I was just kind of thinking about it. um and And what would I use that for? What would it be worth to me?
johngrimsmo: you know
John S: Yeah, well, I think the first question is to so sort of say, you know, what what do you specifically need?
johngrimsmo: Like I think we have a lot of projects we want to do, like important things or non -important things. um I think we have a lot of challenges that either we're not smart enough to solve yet or the solution is right there in front of us, we don't know, like advice. um Why are we still blowing tools? Why are we taking so long on this? When maybe somebody else would come in and reprogram it and be like, well, clearly you're, you know, I saw somebody else do it like this. If you did it, you'd be way faster.
johngrimsmo: um Kind of that outside perspective. Like directly though, not just in conversation. I don't know if that would be worth quite a lot.
John S: But I think I Swear, I think you're almost thinking about it Inversely where you already are that like you said too much on your plate, but like John you're good enough to be that consultant now I know it's not what you want to do, but like you're good enough to walk into a a shop and and sort of be able to say, you're paying me to tell you what I think you could do better or differently.
johngrimsmo: But my wondering is if somebody, whether they have more experience or less or different experience than me could come in and make a meaningful impact into our business.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Cause I don't want to be, I don't know everything. You know, I, you know, what's up chat.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: You got guys like Lawrence and Dennis who have done way more machining than I have and are, you know, Inarguably like better machinists than I am.
John S: Sure.
johngrimsmo: And they just have so much more experience and they have done things that I've never done. And they would have that perspective to, you know, offer advice.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: and Why are you doing it like that? Like that's dumb. Stop doing that. Um, I don't know. I feel like there are lots that I'm missing.
John S: Yeah. know I think you are doing great, John. I mean. i
johngrimsmo: Appreciate it.
John S: Consultants is, I mean, I feel like in our industry doesn't have a bad bad rap, but I think in general it's like, okay, a consultant is provided to do the dirty work or when we don't know what we're doing or to blame game or, um you know, it's tend to be expensive.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: All the reasons, all the reasons I haven't ever pursued them.
John S: Yeah, it's kind of like, now but I also think what you're saying is something I think I love the idea of, which is, um I kind of asked you to do this, but it's never worked out. I was like, come to my shop off the record and just tell me everything that we're doing that's just stupid.
johngrimsmo: who
John S: like And it's kind of an awkward thing to be, but it's like it's not awkward when you're paying consultants thousands of dollars, but as a friend, it's like, what what are you doing?
johngrimsmo: well right yeah yeah
John S: um But some people need that. I mean, look, I'll i'll pick on you right now. It's like sell the darn you mocks. John get them gone.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, a hundred percent.
John S: Like, do you, do you want me to tell you that? Or do you want to pay a consultant to tell you that?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. That would be a waste of money to pay a consultant.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Tell me that.
John S: Otherwise be like hyper.
johngrimsmo: And yeah, like you're about to say, like the hyperspecific, like I know there's clear low hanging fruit.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like, yeah, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. I'm ignoring that. I know that. Um, but let's solve this specifically.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: Um, yeah.
John S: That's great. Force multiplier. kits consulttons You don't have to bring on board an employee and have the long -term commitment. like That all is great.
johngrimsmo: sort of the the Upwork model, like I don't need to hire a graphics designer, I can for $72 get this one project done.
John S: um
John S: Yes. I don't know Chris well at all. I mean i met him, but I don't know him. The story I heard was that he was in Ohio ah because he was at some company dealing with a pretty complex probing issue and he just was a boss. about like didn't didn't like i'm making this up like didn't blame other people didn't try to start putting out tech support tickets with other people he's just like I know exactly how to fix this because I'm a bad you know what and ah was pretty legit and like just fixing it ironically I think it was a radio probe getting moved to a
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: to an IR probe, but that's a great example of like a guy who's just like, okay, this is not working. This is broken. I don't, our core competency at our, you know, this could be some spark plug manufacturer for all I know.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: They're like, we don't have for initial experts here.
johngrimsmo: hey And I am that person in our company.
John S: We need to find somebody you can come in and just fix this for. us So that's great.
johngrimsmo: I don't have enough capacity to solve all the things that need to be solved.
John S: Yeah. But as I mean, our machine's broken right now.
johngrimsmo: Nope, I think everything's up.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: but So the improvements or things that are, you know, not really broken, but could be way better.
John S: Yeah. I guess that's the question too. I'm making this up as I go, but are you looking to consultants to deal with disasters if you will, or are you looking at consultants to optimize and make better the future?
johngrimsmo: optimized. That's what I'm considering.
John S: Uh -huh.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And it's more just um you know a mental game of of what would that be like as opposed to like considering looking, pricing out.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: like But you got to ask yourself, it's like you always say if imagine if somebody came into your shop with $10 million dollars and said, this is you know let's do what we need to do here.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: but phrased in the way of a consultant that comes in and says, okay, I see what you're doing.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um What if we did it like this? And I know our our our banks, we've got a business development bank of Canada that we've got one loan with.
John S: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: um They've got people on staff that can, you know you can buy these services as well.
John S: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: um And they've had, you know they claim to have had wonderful success in other manufacturing shops that come in and re whether it's a restructure, whether it's a lean initiative, whether it's a manufacturing flow, whether it's tracking inventory, whether it's things, they can come in and do a project and charge you thousands of dollars and hopefully make a big difference. um I just don't want to be so hard -headed and arrogant and ego that says, I can do it all myself, it's fine, we're good. like I want to grow away from that.
John S: ah No, I commend you and wholeheartedly agree.
johngrimsmo: but it's hard because I i am those things.
John S: Well, that's what I was going to say. But I think you already know some of the low hanging fruit and you just need to do that, John.
johngrimsmo: yeah
johngrimsmo: yeah Or delegate. like
John S: Yeah, or maybe you do. Maybe you need to have a consultant, because effectively a consultant is kind of like, I've usually phrased it as a boss, a board of directors, an oversight person to tell you what to do, like to be your boss, to be like, you know, John, I'm going to pick on the UX.
John S: John, the UX need to be gone in 30 days or else, I don't know what the cost is going to be, but like, or else.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John S: So just get rid of them. Some people want that consultant to just give them a framework.
johngrimsmo: Maybe more what I'm looking for is not so much a consultant, but a very short term helping hand.
John S: Yeah, that's fair.
johngrimsmo: You know, somebody to come in like, and and just boss level stuff with me for a solid weekend.
John S: I think that's the $10 million dollars question or investment is just you need ah you need a chief of staff or number two person or like, you just need that.
johngrimsmo: I don't know. I don't know.
John S: Now, not in the cards I guess right now, but like that's, got it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I do have that in Angelo and, but he's got his hands full and it's still not enough. Like I hate saying things are not enough, but I have ambitions, you know?
John S: Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, it's a real issue. I mean, it's a, it's a fair point. And I agree with you. I think that's the one aspect of entrepreneurship being lonely is I'm, you know, I'm in James Ohio. People, you know, I don't interact with lots of other machinists on a regular basis. And I wish I did, or I wish, I wish more people were willing to tell me.
John S: how we how I'm doing things wrong. I mean i have many many faults or many things I'm stupid about. um Sometimes you don't you don't know what you don't know.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
John S: like ah you know you know like but
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: Let's keep this conversation going. I don't know what that means, but let's get it going.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, same. um' I'm good with that. Yep.
John S: um I mean, it's also, look, as part of this podcast is our version of helping other people like that. You know, Pearson's putting out great content around ah efficiency and lean and Andrew Henry's, like, what Henry Holster's like, when I see him, it's just like, I don't know how you went from a school teacher to like, killing it, like, good for you.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: It's great. 0 % envy, just, just admiration. um And it's as much inspiring as it is infuriating because you're like, makes makes me feel like I need to be doing more.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. um And it's yeah, it's inspiring as well, because you're like, I know I can do more. And it's literally just like Jocko Willing says, prioritize and execute. And i that is top of mind for me.
John S: yeah
johngrimsmo: um I can run in any direction, but then I'm relatively happy running in any direction. you know, important project, not important project. Like they're all fun for me.
johngrimsmo: um And the guys around me, my brother and stuff are happy to tell me, is is that really like top importance?
John S: right
johngrimsmo: Well, it's almost done. Hang on, hang on. Just let me let me finish this.
John S: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But it's good.
John S: But hey, i'm I'm about to hang up and go, one of our VF2 fixtures, we have uni -force clamps on the Op2s, which are against, clamping against a finished surface, not yeah not uncommon for uni -force.
John S: And what I like to do is take the uni -force clamp, it's like a, I believe it's an aluminum extrusion, it's it's coated, so it looks like it's brass, but I believe it's aluminum.
johngrimsmo: yeah Nice.
John S: and a PFG pfg them, ah and it helps minimize the tool mark or the pressure mark you'll get. And then what we do is we will put the product in place.
John S: I have some scrap ones I can use, otherwise I would 3D print some or something. And then will RTV silicone fill the voids of the Uniforce clamp, both the as between the wedge and the and the extrusion, as well as around the cavity, because it has to sit in some form of a pocket.
johngrimsmo: No way.
John S: And the RTV silicone is plenty compliant, but it minimizes the chips that build up inside that area.
johngrimsmo: All right.
John S: So this is not something that John Saunders should be doing, but I'm going to do it because I like it and it's fun.
johngrimsmo: Like that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John S: in north yeah
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Love it.
John S: Yeah, thank you.
johngrimsmo: All right, man. Have fun with that. And I will. Okay. We're taking next week off, right?
John S: Yes, I'm actually going to see.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John S: I get to go see Heimer.
johngrimsmo: Where?
John S: Germany.
johngrimsmo: Oh, that's awesome.
John S: Yeah, yeah, well my wife and I were going to go for the Lavers Cup, the tennis tournament.
johngrimsmo: Good view, man.
John S: We are going and then. After we booked that trip, Heimer asked if we had, they had, they were trying to put together like a small thing and they're like, Hey, it's the Friday. I was already going to be there through Monday and I was like, it's that coming Friday.
John S: And I'm like, I'm already going to be there. I gotta, I gotta go see, uh, I gotta go see it. So I'm excited to check it out.
johngrimsmo: Good. Good for you, man.
John S: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's awesome. Okay. So we're skipping next week, but we'll be back the week after.
John S: Yeah.
John S: Two weeks.
johngrimsmo: All right then.
John S: See you bud. Take care.
johngrimsmo: Take care. Bye.
John S: Bye.
