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Tangent #8: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury
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This week, Dot is absent doing real-life work stuff, but Chris and Tracy soldier one, this time talking about Social Conflicts in Savage Worlds. We chat about how to set them up, when to use them, when NOT to use them, and best practices for getting the most out of them, even with shy players.
Check out the Latest Han Cluster Adventure--The Lost Waltz by John Doom: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/572701/the-lost-waltz
Our Discord: https://discord.gg/2skmrtYyZU
Han Cluster Sci Fi RPG: https://hancluster.com
Resting Glitch Face: https://open.spotify.com/show/1ijwk9DT8ulqO8RVyrawhN
Bite Size Tales: https://sites.libsyn.com/436095/site
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Transcript
Opening and Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
Because then now it's suddenly in this, you know, the verisimilitude. Did I get it right? Did I say verisimilitude? You said it wrong. Did I? Okay. I mean, I was due. I'd gotten it. I'd gotten Hello, friends. Welcome to Tabletop Tangents, a podcast about running tabletop RPGs, writing stories, and sometimes the meandering paths we take in pursuit of creativity and inspiration.
00:00:34
Speaker
Tangent number eight, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
Absence of Dot and Episode Jokes
00:00:47
Speaker
Hello, everybody. We're back, except we are missing we're missing, we're a person down on our podcast this week because Dot is out of town doing some important work stuff. Yes, ah some sort of real life thing. So no dots. So this is just going be one long run on sentences. There will be no ends and dots and periods, whatever. it looks And there may or may not be swearing.
00:01:11
Speaker
Right, exactly. Because if though if Dot was here, we would pretty much guarantee it. but Exactly, exactly. Who the hell knows?
Understanding Savage Worlds' Social Conflicts
00:01:18
Speaker
right Anywho, this week we we thought we would talk some Savage Worlds specifically because we haven't done that in a little while. and We wanted to cover social conflicts.
00:01:31
Speaker
Social conflicts are are ah unusual because i' my my experience with them or my evolution with them was I didn't use them for a long time.
00:01:44
Speaker
And partly because i and this might be this might be true of a lot of people, I feel i felt like if I want a social conflict, I i i always wanted it to go a certain way.
00:01:59
Speaker
So I always felt uncomfortable running a social conflict because I didn't have a good idea of what would happen if the PCs failed. Meaning if the I felt like if the PCs failed at the social conflict that I was envisioning, then my game goes off the rails. that's <unk>s ah i think that's an early me problem. That's obviously been solved now. Now i design adventures with social conflicts in mind and have those branching paths in in my head.
00:02:33
Speaker
When i make them. But before I was always like, well, this could be a social conflict, but no, it can't be because they need they need to go along this particular path. So there's no reason to make it a social conflict.
00:02:48
Speaker
Now I have strategies and we can get into some of that later about about how big a change can be made depending on how they do. ah Sometimes it can be a big change and sometimes it doesn't have to be. Sometimes it can be a small change, but something impactful enough that you know it was worth doing this.
Designing and Adapting Social Conflicts
00:03:08
Speaker
I, if there's if there's anything that I really love about the Savage World's rules, it is these little rules subsets, your your mass combat, your dramatic task, social conflict, ah even quick encounters to to a degree. Yeah.
00:03:26
Speaker
But in that same breath, I am am not proud not too proud to admit the fact that I don't think I've ever run a social conflict rules as written. um and And so ah making sure that I did my homework before the episode, I reread the rules and i was reminded of the fact that, yep,
00:03:46
Speaker
I don't think I've ever done them as written. I like the way they're written. And I really like the whole idea of the social conflict beyond just make a persuasion check or make ah make a spirit check to try and convince them of this. I like i like the idea of the back and forth because it is...
00:04:10
Speaker
It's a structured way to role play, or yeah and and however you want to define that, with actual stakes um beyond a simple a simple round. you know and and it's Generally, it's an easy enough concept to grasp ah for for most folks. And I think, too, on top of that...
00:04:35
Speaker
And maybe this is part of the reason why I like this, because why I like social conflicts, because I'm this type of player or GM that I really, really like role-playing. I really, really like getting into a character and presenting BS arguments, whether I believe them or not.
00:04:55
Speaker
um And this is a really fun, structured way to do that. Yes. you know there's there's There's self-imposed time limits if you if you're making your oratory. you know i mean you like you know you don't It's not like okay, you seconds make your point. no it's not like that.
00:05:11
Speaker
you know when you're when you're when you're doing it you know, when to, you know, when to start, when definitely when to stop. Yes. And to, to make, to make that check. And I think that's, that's kind of, uh, uh, one of the fun aspects of it.
00:05:26
Speaker
Yeah. The other thing is like, it's three rounds. And so that's the thing. That's a point I think for GMs to make it front is because players will want to make their arguments all at once. Like everything laid out like, Oh no, no, this is just the first round. Yeah.
00:05:44
Speaker
Because you're going to get your so your chance to rebut if if they come back at you with something that that will give you fodder to rebut. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the funnest part of it. The whole thing is that because especially ah if the player goes first as the GM, you have that opportunity to absolutely use their words against them. um you know And vice versa to a certain degree. And I think that that's it's fun and it scratches a a certain part of your your RPG brain when it comes that kind of stuff. Yeah, for sure.
00:06:15
Speaker
So when... When is a good time
Strategic Role-Playing in Social Conflicts
00:06:20
Speaker
to use them? I mean, obviously in written adventures, they're usually pre-programmed. But if it's if it's a situation where this sort of comes up where you weren't expecting it, like how how do you...
00:06:33
Speaker
What's the best way to like look out for opportunities to use these? I think as somebody who has come into using them much more often now is, like I said, I had that problem when I was like i was just running a game and I wasn't designing games yet or or i wasn't I wasn't deep diving into that stuff quite yet where I was like, well,
00:06:57
Speaker
We have a situation, we have rules for this. So I could make this a social conflict. And the instinct that i had at that moment was I wanted to use the rule system.
00:07:11
Speaker
Because it's there, because this is what it's for. But it really isn't for something that you've, that is, it's like clue finding, right? If a clue is super important to find, you don't want to hide it behind role that they can fail, right?
00:07:29
Speaker
You just want to give it to them. You can give consequences for them for failing a role to find it, but you still give them the clue. that's that's That's where we are with certain types of situations in games where you might be tempted to do a social conflict.
00:07:44
Speaker
Because the beauty of these rules is that there is an opportunity for failure. And not and ah a low opportunity for failure, as a matter of fact.
00:07:54
Speaker
So because the the best possible result is you getting six plus tokens. And it turns out six plus tokens is hard to get in three rounds when you've got opposed roles. So they they could not get everything that they want.
00:08:07
Speaker
So the best opportunity to use them is when you've got a situation where you have in mind what happens if they don't succeed. There's no reason to use them otherwise because if if you are lost, if they fail, you're in trouble.
00:08:27
Speaker
Either that or you've just ignored the whole reason to have one in the first place. Like, okay, we do the social conflict. They only get like three tokens and you've got to give them what you wanted to give them anyway.
00:08:39
Speaker
So what did we do this for? but and And I think along with that is because of the way that the success tokens work out, there is through the mechanics, there's this built in result where should they only get a moderate success, then you have now suddenly created a certain level of tension because...
00:08:59
Speaker
the the the players are or they know that their characters are walking away with not getting everything they want. yes And so there's there's things to exploit down the line, which is, I think, which is i think a ah nice secondary benefit to all that. So yes, they can still get what they're looking for, but then also now you have something that can be used a little bit later if you need it.
00:09:23
Speaker
The other aspect of this is certain GMs will want that plot moves in the direction of wherever the players take it. In that case, it's a great place to use it, right? If you're willing to say, okay, they fail, now the plot changes.
00:09:41
Speaker
Great. Use a social conflict because that way you've got that that scale, that sliding scale of success, and you can change things based on what they end up doing.
00:09:53
Speaker
But if it is a core clue, if it is like that, if it is something that is critical for them to get through, um I would not use it for that. Or have an idea for failure that doesn't take them off the main road that they're on, but complicates it somehow or or changes things in a way that they don't want changed.
00:10:17
Speaker
Like doesn't maybe change their core experience of what they're trying to do, but makes life awful for the people that they're leaving behind. Yeah. Because that's enough to make them go, oh, man, we really messed that up. Doesn't change what we're doing.
00:10:33
Speaker
Like it may makes no bearing on anything else. But we've left miserable people behind and that sucks. And that's that's a perfectly legitimate way to use them. Yeah. And and I think, too, I think that there's um I mean, you know, there's always the the.
00:10:51
Speaker
most, i don't want to say maybe most obvious way to the option is when there's large crowds, you know, any, any sort of situation um where there's,
00:11:05
Speaker
Somebody to convince. Somebody to convince or somebody's to convince, or you have two opposing groups and you have to be the mediator and to try and appease. I mean, those types of ah situations, there's, i think, that natural inclination to just knock it down to like a simple persuasion or ah or an intimidation check to just try and cow the crowd. And it's important to remember that, no, there's actually a way that you can make this a little bit cooler and dig it into the social conflicts.
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah, especially if there's richness to why we're there in the first place. Like if there's multiple reasons to make arguments, then let them make multiple arguments in a social conflict rather than just making it a role. Yeah. Because that tells the story, right? And I've got examples of that.
00:11:53
Speaker
And the way I structure them in in written material, the way I do it, I don't know that anybody else does it my way, but I'm very, very conscious of what the GM needs to run this thing.
00:12:07
Speaker
I don't want to leave them hanging. So I don't just say, man whatever, have a social conflict here. You know, I don't, i that's not enough. That means what i what I do instead is I give the arguments for the oppositions.
00:12:22
Speaker
Right. And I say, here's this person says this. This person has this point of view and this person has this point of view. You can you mix and match in any round you want and paraphrase based on
Structuring Social Conflicts Effectively
00:12:35
Speaker
what players' arguments are, but here are your main points. And that gives the GM enough to give them an immersive experience and with this argument. And then on occasion, and if if it's if it's warranted, and a lot of times I do this anyway, I give arguments for the players in case the GM needs to give them some help.
00:12:58
Speaker
So, okay. So that actually brings up a really good point about setting that up. Because one of the things that I have found when I've sat with relatively new players, or maybe they're, you know, slightly experienced Savage Worlds players, but they've not really ever used a dramatic task, or maybe they've only done one or two, so they don't necessarily know. I think, let's talk a little bit about how to set this up. I mean, it's very obvious when when you're in a combat encounter, everybody has their particular sides. They generally will know what the objectives are, but still, even in combat encounters,
00:13:35
Speaker
You as the GM often explain, you know yeah here's what you have to do. you've got to you have You have to get this thing ah that's on the other side of the opposition, but you still are going to have to get through the opposition. Yes. you know So the structure is there, but with social or social conflicts, it's not necessarily known. so Talk a little bit about what that is like. you know How do you build that framework around there for the table so that everybody does know kind of what their roles are going to be?
00:14:06
Speaker
Well, I think what I tend to do is set up these social conflicts with a little bit of, I tend to foreshadow them. I tend to say, okay, here is one side.
00:14:19
Speaker
Here is the other side. We're not at the social conflict yet. you know that this is that this is coming, right? And I would give examples, but I don't want to spoil Hancluster for you.
00:14:31
Speaker
But I can say one of the things that I do, I did do a holler. And there's a social conflict in the holler PPC. And at that point, you're you're you're ah telegraphing it.
00:14:46
Speaker
Because at at this point in the Plot Point campaign, the the the heroes have built a bit of a coalition, right? And now we are trying to convince them to stay with us because there's an opposition who are saying, you're crazy to go fight the big boys. You're just going to get your butts kicked.
00:15:05
Speaker
You've got to to flee or come with us and join our religious cult or whatever the heck it is, right? And before we do the social conflict, I'm setting all that up.
00:15:16
Speaker
Here's this point of view. here's Here's what they're thinking. And here's what you're trying. You've been trying to do this the whole time, build a coalition to fight the big boys, right? So you have an idea of what your arguments are going to be because you've seen what the big boys do. You've seen what they're doing to the people, right?
00:15:35
Speaker
So you've you've got that built in. And then when you get to the social conflict, people already know kind of what size they're taking and what arguments they might make and what arguments their opposition might make so that they can sort of speak to them.
00:15:53
Speaker
So I set it up that way. And ah with the Hanclister one that you did, i set it up in the sense that there's there's two opposing sort of sides here. You're not really here to take either of those sides. Your goal here is to make peace, is to settle everybody down. And de-escalate.
00:16:14
Speaker
De-escalate. Because that's the whole point is that the blinding is escalating. And your whole point is de-escalation. You know this. You know this sort of going in.
00:16:26
Speaker
And so you can make arguments based on what they're saying, what you are trying to do, all that stuff. I think there's enough there to go on. And if there isn't, then I give a little hint to the GM so that they can give hints to you about what to say and what the background is here, what your characters would know that you maybe don't know, so that you can make some arguments.
00:16:50
Speaker
And so is that, and ah you know, and obviously every situation is a little bit different, but is that is that a situation where you are giving that before any die rolls are made or is this as the rounds subsequently go?
00:17:05
Speaker
With the arguments to be made, I'm basically setting it up so that um so that we know what the what the conflict is. You have a basic understanding of the background so that you could make some arguments if you are paying attention.
00:17:20
Speaker
And then when the when the conflict starts, I usually say, okay, PC number one, or whoever's going to be arguing the first round with their persuasion, ahead and make your argument.
00:17:34
Speaker
And then the before we roll anything, I'm going to make my counterargument from X person. In Holler, it might be Ollie Polson or Estelle Rood or whoever.
00:17:47
Speaker
They're making their point and then maybe countering your point with it because that, again, the pc or the GM can pick any argument they want or make their own up or whatever. And then we roll and see how the crowd or the judge or whoever it is that you're trying to convince responds.
00:18:05
Speaker
So the instigator, the player makes the the the first roll and then the the GM makes the roll opposite it so that you it's an opposed roll. then you see how many success slash raises you get.
00:18:21
Speaker
and's And then the next round, player two or whoever's going to make the second argument, make your second argument. And that's how I progressed through it. Are you, ah so I'm just kind of curious, speaking of tangents, quick tangents. So when it comes to that, on the GM side of things, when you're rolling, do you roll out in front of the players so they know right away what they have to beat? Or is do you keep that one behind the screen? i'd never roll behind the screen.
00:18:47
Speaker
Okay. So like if you're, if the player rolls, so you're not rolling, when you do it, you're not rolling at the same time. No, ah you set the target first. An opposed role, whoever's instigating sets the target. Sure. So you have the player, they roll.
00:19:04
Speaker
They roll and then the defense knows what they have to beat. Okay. That way, because bennies get spent. Otherwise, if you're simultaneously rolling and you don't know whether you should be spending a bennie or not. So if you set the roll and say, okay, are you happy with your eight that you got or whatever, your six? You say, no, I'm going to spend a bennie, try to do better. Okay, I got 14, beat that.
00:19:25
Speaker
And then the opposition knows what they have to beat. And um so generally, who I always roll out in the open. Usually the players are the instigators.
00:19:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. usually. And then I, I pose. See, this is where I have to admit that you're much nicer than I am when it comes to that. So, so any, anything I've ever said about you withholding pennies, now I have to take it all back because this is where you're nicer because I, I don't do that.
00:19:52
Speaker
Um, and now I won't cheat. I mean, I'll stick with the role that I got, but I, i'd like to create that additional tension and i'm not saying this is the right way to do it either by any stretch of the imagination but i like to do my role you know and then give the the coy ryan reynolds gif look you know like are you sure you you want to keep of that you know um you comfortable with that five is that is that you feeling pretty good about that and just to get them to possibly second guess and
00:20:24
Speaker
ah For no other reason than my own amusement and just to, you know, create that that feeling at the table. But I mean, I totally get your argument and I'm not, you know, you're just much nicer. but Well, that's how the that's how the rules state it.
00:20:39
Speaker
Oh, let's see. Now, there's my problem. You can always go against the rules, but the rules state set the target first and then the opposition goes. All right. That said you're you're a little like Shane with cards. Shane hides action cards of his enemies. Right.
00:20:53
Speaker
I don't like it. But he doesn't. And that is not in the rules, but it's not ah it's not against the rules either. Sure, sure. So i I put my cards out there on the table. I let people see. If they want to spend a penny to try to beat a king, more power to them. But Shane will say, do you want to spend a penny for a new card based on what your card is without knowing what my card is? Gosh, that would be really tough. I would hate that as a player. I'm with you that. mean, it's fun. it's It's fine. It's fun, but I don't i wouldn't do it.
00:21:21
Speaker
Right. I wouldn't do it. So, um so yeah, it is it is opposed roles. That's the way they work. At least rules as written. But, um but yeah, i've I've learned long ago, always roll in the open because you never know what's going to happen. You could explode, and if you rolled behind a screen, they won't believe you.
00:21:40
Speaker
Right. So it's better to roll in the open and just let it explode. And they go, what the hell, man? yeah I mean, that is fair. and That's true.
00:21:52
Speaker
um yeah Because it is, you're you're either you're either breaking their heart one way or breaking their heart another way. So it's, yeah. Yeah. It's not as fun either. You're rolling behind a screen. All they see is you rolling over and over again. and they go, oh, no. you know But it's not as fun as if you're doing it right in front of them. True. Yeah, because you're you're rubbing it right in their faces. That's right. Look what i just got. That's right.
00:22:15
Speaker
and And now, of course, rules is written. It always does have to be persuasion. The rules is written, it does. a The lead has to be persuasion. Yes. Because it's a social conflict. You could allow intimidation, I suppose, but... See, I do, but this is... but See, that's where we get into modifying. I want to save that because i don't want to i don't want to confuse, you know, like, let's talk about how it how it's written how it's written. And then we then we can talk about how I F it up. Sure. Sure. So yeah, rules is written. It's supposed to be persuasion for the lead. But you should, as a GM, encourage the other players or heroes to support that lead. Right. So, okay. So that brings up another point, which I think is worth bringing up. and and and And again, this is where, and I'll do this in dramatic tasks all the time, because...
00:23:06
Speaker
because ah Because it can be such and a vague concept, because so many players are conditioned to, i can hit something with this, or I can use a power against this.
00:23:20
Speaker
But here, it's it's not as clear. And so I think that it is very important If the players aren't like launching into it, is i think it's important to provide them with examples. And for for sure, with dramatic tasks, I do it all the time. And I think it is with social conflicts, I think it is too, because this to me is where the, in the support, it's where the sublime beauty of these things is. Because there's so much open for interpretation when it comes to support. yeah And it is...
00:23:54
Speaker
it is and the opportunities to be creative just absolutely explode in in this area. Yes, and absolutely. And, and i love being able to reward a player that,
00:24:09
Speaker
When they come up with a creative description as here's how I want to use science or here's how I want to use common knowledge to support or even something like athletics or agility. something Or healing or survival or whatever. yeah Yeah. And I think, well, and that's that's like that's a really good example because when we did our social conflict, that's exactly what Dot's character did with her healing role.
00:24:35
Speaker
I thought that was brilliant and an excellent way to do it because it's an unconventional skill for the situation, but it proved to be not only a good for when it came to the support, but it also, like I saw the imagery in my mind as a player of what was happening.
00:24:55
Speaker
And it really helped to just paint that picture for me as to what we were all doing as a group. yeah And I mean, of course, the the the base thing of it gives all the other players something to do because there's only going to be that one person who has the highest persuasion skill and it's their role that counts.
00:25:17
Speaker
But it doesn't invalidate anything the other players do. And so that's I love seeing them embrace the the creative potential that's there.
00:25:29
Speaker
Yes, and in that particular case, we were – because you're trying to de-escalate. So Dot's character using healing to to actually do first aid on people that have hurt each other right is a perfect support role.
00:25:45
Speaker
It's perfect. This is where the GM also has to be observant. And I mentioned it just a little bit ago about – Giving examples, the GM does need to be observant and look for opportunities to get the players engaged if they're not if they're not picking up what's being laid down. You know, um experienced players who who can see kind of what's going on, they can they can think about that and come up with something.
00:26:10
Speaker
And that usually sometimes can be enough for the other players. You know, like, oh, that was a really interesting use of that. Gosh, I wonder what else I have on my character sheet that I might be able to do for that. You can get that thought process started and it it makes a big difference. And in this case, I would bend the rules also in that the roles would happen in the right order, but the arguments don't have to happen in the
Flexibility and Player Styles in Social Conflicts
00:26:36
Speaker
right order. Meaning if somebody wants to support and do it before the main argument, great. What's your support? What are you doing?
00:26:43
Speaker
What are you trying to do? If you want to wait until after the the main person makes the argument and then tell me how you're supporting that, that's a great way too. That's fine.
00:26:53
Speaker
Usually you would roll support first to know what the bonus is and you can make the rolls that way. But I would not be strict about saying doing the support first and then making the argument. I would i would say let them decide and also let them plot it out if they want to.
00:27:13
Speaker
Round one, I'm going to talk about this. Round two, you can talk about this. And round three, maybe I'll talk about this. And that way they have a a skeleton of a plan in mind so people can start thinking about it. And then that can all be upended by what the GM says on the behalf of the NPCs, right? Based on what they say. And then they can change their plan. But it's okay to plot all that out ahead of time and let them do it.
00:27:38
Speaker
However they feel comfortable doing it. i I'm all for wanting them to feel engaged. rather than following the strict protocol of one after the other and in this order and blah, blah. blah Yeah.
00:27:54
Speaker
In addition to that too, I think one of the other things for a GM to be aware of is the types of the types of players around ah their table and responding accordingly. So the example when we were talking about this beforehand is if you have if you have players who are just hardcore role players, they love to talk, they love being able to to orate ah eloquently,
00:28:23
Speaker
and turn a phrase and make good arguments and they were in debate club in high school and all of that kind of stuff. They're going to eat this shit up. Just huge. Daryl is brilliant at this, by the way. ah i i love doing it as well. um i just it just It's so much fun to do, especially when um I don't even necessarily agree with like the the angle that I'm taking. it's just I eat that up. It's so much fun.
00:28:52
Speaker
And so you could have a player that gets up there and does a Bill Pullman Independence Day-esque sort of ah speech and making their points and and all of this stuff for the crowd. And you as the GM like what you see. You want to give them, OK, you did such a good job. i'm going give you a plus two to your role or at least a plus one. You know, that's cool. There's nothing wrong with that.
00:29:18
Speaker
I think conversely, the types of players who aren't like that, but who might say my character is going to get up there and they are going to give a Bill Pullman Independence Day like speech and they're going to make point a and they're going to make point B and they're going make point C. And that's the extent of what that player says or does when it comes to role playing. That's just what they do. That's the type of player there.
00:29:41
Speaker
Ain't nothing wrong with that. As a GM, you have to be aware, and this is where it comes comes to knowing your players. And usually by this time, you should.
00:29:52
Speaker
And that player probably deserves that same mo same modifier, even if they didn't give a a beautiful speech. Because they at least had the... idea and the forethought to go up there and, you know, here's what, here's what my character wants to do. And if that's their style of play and they're committed to the bit of the social conflict, I don't see any reason why they don't deserve that either. And I think sometimes GMs can sometimes they get, they can get wowed by the words, you know, you know what i mean? And so I think it's, it's always good to be aware of that kind of, that kind of thing.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, i I absolutely agree. This is the way I do it. And some GMs are a little bit more stickler about it. But i if your character has a D8 persuasion, you have a D8 persuasion, which means you're good at persuasion. So if it ultimately, i want The role to matter. i want I want you to roll. So even if your argument as a player isn't as strong as somebody else's, your character is still a D8 persuasion. So I'm going to still let you roll it. Just give me something. And then and then we'll and maybe you are great at this. you know It's it's it's all good. and' Boof is not very...
00:31:08
Speaker
She's very outgoing, but she's also, ah she has trouble in games coming up with these arguments when she's got a social conflict. So she knows that I'm going to let her character be her character. And as long as she gives me something, she's, I'm going to talk about this.
00:31:24
Speaker
I'm not going to give you what I say because I don't know how to say it, but I'm going to talk about this. right Great. Roll your D8. I had one, i don't know if I've told this story, but I was running my Harry Potter game.
00:31:36
Speaker
at a con once. And I was, I was playing one of my NPCs, super like arrogant, had the robes on. He was Gryffindor. He was the, he was the Gryffindor seeker whatever. And he was just so just an ass about it.
00:31:54
Speaker
And he's just, he's, you know, he's dismissive of the other PCs. One of the other PCs is a, is a Quidditch player who wants to be on the team. Who's always been, you know,
00:32:06
Speaker
shuffled off and in favor of this guy. So I role play this guy to the hilt. Like I'm standing up, I'm doing my thing, I'm i'm going the whole way. And this poor new player next to me was so intimidated. He's like, and I'm like, what do you say? You know, I'm, I'm, I finished with my little crazy Paul Pickford. Here is, here he is larger than life. And i said, what do you say? And he's like, I can't follow that. I'm like, no, no, no, no. no I don't want you to feel like you have to do what I just did.
00:32:39
Speaker
All I want to know is what, what generally you say. It's okay to not you know perform like like what I just did. And I i always, there's there's always that conflict in me, like maybe I shouldn't have done that. But it's so entertaining for everybody that I do it anyway, because it's, it's ah he loved it, but he just didn't know how he was supposed to respond to it.
00:33:03
Speaker
See, i think I think that's an excellent approach because, and yes, it's entertaining for everybody. And you you you may have that thought about pulling back, but at the same time, it's also entertaining for you. You're getting something out of being able to do that. I get something out of being able, when i can be the really weird NPC here or the really, you know, the one who- Totally unhinged because you're the GM and you can do whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just, but and- and That's part of the enjoyment of the game for me. But the key in that is, you know, the encouragement that still was there, like the follow through if you as a GM saying, you know, no, no, no, no. no so
00:33:47
Speaker
You don't have to follow that. It's okay. yeah that that That's that's ah that's an important intangible um skill, you know, is is because you're still encouraging and you're just like, Hey, this is just me.
00:34:02
Speaker
You go ahead and be you, you know, I'm totally here for however you are, you know, and, and let's, let's, let's hear it. Yeah. um Which I think is good. i think that's really good.
00:34:13
Speaker
And I think with regard to the social conflicts, the, I, like I said before, if If it's coming up organically and you're like, okay, I'm the GM who improvises and I'm not on a script like I often am, or I've got notes for the adventure that I'm running, or I've got a book that I'm trying to follow,
Preparation and Anticipation in Social Conflicts
00:34:34
Speaker
whatever. I still have plenty of improvisation room, but I'm i'm trying to do something with with what I've got.
00:34:40
Speaker
If you're the more improvisational plot person, if it comes up organically, it's it's like, well, Let's do a social conflict, you know, and hopefully you've got enough to know what your argument is and I've got enough to know what my argument is. But I love to set them up, like I've said, as foreshadowing. I've already foreshadowed the next social conflict for you guys in the Hunt Cluster campaign. Have you really? Yes. See, this is where I'm thick as a brick because I have no idea. you're on your way to shock. Yes. you have a mission there, and then you're going to do something and you're going to come back.
00:35:20
Speaker
Oh. Then you have to make a report to the council. Okay. All right. That's called a social conflict. And the beauty of it is it's so far foreshadowing. The thing is, you don't even need to know that it was foreshadowing. You've got it. You know that you're going to have to do that. you're going to remember it that you had to do that. That's true And what you do in then in this next adventure informs your arguments for the social conflict that's coming at the end of it.
00:35:48
Speaker
Interesting. All right. Right? So that's I love setting it up like that. Yeah, right on. And there's another one coming that your character specifically is going to have a very, very vested interest in.
00:36:01
Speaker
And you don't even know it yet. But I do know that at some point we are going to Calipo. Yes. So that's my guess of where that's going to be. Perfect. Right? And so it's already there. It's built in.
00:36:14
Speaker
and But that's not easy to do. it's it's This is how I've come to do it as as a designer and as a GM. is like I want you to have some stake in it before it happens yeah so that you can anticipate and and and have like context before you go in and have to make arguments. Yeah.
00:36:36
Speaker
Not easy to do, but that's kind of what I, it's definitely what I do in the Han cluster. And we do it a little bit in Haller too, because I was like, we're going to have a social conflict, be damned. It's going to happen. yeah And, you know, Tim wrote it. It was great. And I just had to contextualize it a little, make sure it was easy for the GM to run, you know?
00:36:57
Speaker
So anyway, that that i'm I'm repeating myself, but man, when it works, it works really well. And there was one point when I ran Han Cluster before with Shane's group.
00:37:09
Speaker
It was so great because I make an argument as an NPC that i know will speak to Shane specifically because of his background, because I know Shane and I know where he i know what he's done. And and i make the argument and he's's he's like, oh, damn, that's a really good argument.
00:37:27
Speaker
I don't know how I'm going to oppose that one. Tracy's just back there just pushing buttons. I am. I'm just like, and it's not, it wasn't for Shane, but I happen to know like part of it is because my my philosophy of the design of that was to put in arguments that are realistic.
00:37:49
Speaker
that are complex, that that that make you think twice about what you thought of a particular institution or a particular person or a particular viewpoint, right? Turns out there's not anybody who particularly has a evil viewpoint here.
00:38:06
Speaker
They're just trying to to do what they think is best, what's what's safest, right right? You may not agree with it, but they're coming from a place of authenticity, right?
00:38:18
Speaker
not a place of trying to manipulate you or trying to screw you or anything like that. And so those are the best social conflicts when you've got that kind of stuff set up.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, when they're when there are legitimate arguments that both sides can make, I think that makes it that makes it very fun. And when both sides are giving the other something that they can use in subsequent rounds. Yes. Because because then now it's suddenly, and this, you know, the verisimilitude thing, person in me, did I get it right? Did I say verisimilitude? You said it wrong. Did I? Okay. I mean, I was due.
00:38:55
Speaker
Verisimilitude. Willing suspension of disbelief, yeah. See, and that's, I had gotten it right a couple times in a row. So I was definitely doing it to get it wrong because back when we used to do Game with the Cajun Friends, I couldn't even get it half right. It just kind of became a, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, it's a V word, yeah.
00:39:16
Speaker
Anyway, I told you to tell you to take you off your train of thought there. No, no, that's okay. Because let's talk about the ways in which we have, now that we've kind of covered this, I want to talk about the ways in which we have absolutely, or at least for me anyway, have absolutely butchered them. Sure. um and and but But here's the thing.
00:39:36
Speaker
the rules are, again, this is this is another way where I think that they're just so sublimely well done.
Modifying Savage Worlds Rules
00:39:43
Speaker
They are so easily modified, but you can still stick to the core principles of what has to happen um or the results that can be generated, but there's, Savage Worlds allows for very, very easy modification. And I think, it which can be fun. So,
00:40:07
Speaker
Like, for example, um I do allow intimidation instead of in addition to persuasion, if they want to try and do that. um What I have usually done. And again, I'm not saying this is right because it's not rules as written. Yeah.
00:40:25
Speaker
I will have the player make their argument and then they collect their tokens. And then I will have the opposition make their argument, and make their role. So it's not an opposed role to pull away tokens from their pile.
00:40:39
Speaker
Um, it does make it longer, you know, but at the same time, if I'm having fun doing it and the players seem to be having fun doing it, i don't mind that it's a little bit longer. yeah Um, I think I ran one once where I dealt out cards so that if someone did get a club, you didn't have to necessarily go in initiative order.
00:41:02
Speaker
But if you did get a club, there was a modification. So they were at a minus two. So if they were supporting, they and they could ah elect to not support. But if the persuading character um got the club, obviously they were going to have to. So the support was going to have to try and overcome that minus two. Mm-hmm.
00:41:22
Speaker
I'm trying to think what other ways in which I've absolutely butchered the rules. um and I know those are the the the the biggest ones. I don't know. but But see, that's the thing is like, I still feel that even in doing those that way, it still was a fulfilling and satisfying social encounter or social conflict. um You know, and it came out okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's the beauty of Savage Rule very forgiving with modifications and in a way that doesn't mess it up or wreck it completely. Yeah. That said, I'm always – here's why I'm an advocate for rules as written is because I'm a designer for the system. So when when I'm writing for it, I always default to whatever is actually written before I go and change it.
00:42:15
Speaker
Now, there are reasons to change it. And, you know, not just me have have made changes to rules as written in subsystems. I mean, ah Shane has made subtle changes, know, all this stuff. It happens and it's fine.
00:42:30
Speaker
But my... My philosophy is to work with what's there first that's been playtested and thought about with multiple people who are smarter than me.
00:42:42
Speaker
And then if there's something that really needs to change, if you if i can't if I can't make it work with what the rules are, then I will change them.
00:42:53
Speaker
yeah And there is a dramatic task in Han Cluster that's specifically changed because it's so perfect if when I do it that way. It's so thematically perfect. But I did have to play test it like three times on my own before I was even willing to show it to somebody else because I'm like, well, okay, this is is way too hard, way too hard. And I'm like, okay.
00:43:20
Speaker
Like, no, it can't work that way. it It will have to work this way. And then when i presented it to Shane and group and the Shane thought it was great. He thought it was very thematic and cool, but it was, it was like, yeah, it makes it slightly harder.
00:43:35
Speaker
But not appreciably harder, but man, is it thematic, right? And so there was a reason I changed it. And so I don't just willy-nilly like, okay, well, here's the social conflict rules, but now this time we're going to do it a little different. I tend to...
00:43:51
Speaker
Try to mold what is happening around the rules because the rules are tested. They're here. and Why change what isn't broke? big Well, see, and exactly. It's like, yeah, if we did it, we. But that's me. As a designer. you're Right. See, and that's, this is ah but this is a good lesson though, because having also written some stuff for Savage Worlds, not published yet, but it has been written. And I know that I'll be doing some more. This is an excellent reminder to, there's a reason the rules are written this way. You have to have that baseline. They have to exist for some, otherwise, why, why do we even have the books in the first place? So they have to be there. And
00:44:38
Speaker
an adventure that just lays out saying, you know, run a dramatic task, but run it this way. Unless, like you said, there's a good thematic reason to do it in such manner. I think back to some of the other stuff that I've written before, I was really familiar with the rules and I think, ugh.
00:44:57
Speaker
You know, there are so many things where it's like, well, why did I do that? That just could have been an edge. You know what I mean? Like, why did I why did I give this character this overly complicated thing?
00:45:08
Speaker
i just could have given them an edge that does this. You know what I mean? um But I think that's something that just sort of comes with familiarity. And there is nothing wrong with running the rules as written. You know, I look at the social conflict rules, perfectly acceptable and they would work and they would still be fun.
00:45:25
Speaker
But i think there's I think there's always that you know inherent tinkerer in everybody. yes. It's like jazz.
00:45:35
Speaker
Yes, just like that. It's RPG jazz. the g it's it's The G is through jazz, so it's like role-playing jazz is what that is. But it's just spelt with a soft G. Sure.
00:45:47
Speaker
Yeah. And and the the mechanics that I've come up with, I always look for something that's already existing first.
00:46:00
Speaker
So if if I want something that's super dangerous, that's going to like, you know, I don't know, somebody touches you and you start to disintegrate or whatever, there's already something written for that in the superpowers companion.
00:46:14
Speaker
Let's use that, right? Because it's tested, it's already in a book somewhere, let's just use that. and And so it it could be in another book or whatever, but but I'll tend to opt for what's already there and then retrap it for what I need, unless it really needs to be different.
00:46:34
Speaker
And in that case, like the auction in Hancluster, there's nothing like the auction in the existing rules. So I made my own, but I used the, you know, the ethos of the Savage Worlds rules to create that.
00:46:51
Speaker
Because of my knowledge of the rules, I'm like, this can feel like Savage Worlds. Yeah. Like it it's it's it's that it's got that weirdly unintuitive thing to it that makes it fun.
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of that, I'll tangent quick. this was This was a few years ago, but I actually, I posted on the Savage Worlds Facebook group and I was going to be running a boxing match. And i thought about doing dramatic tasks, but I wasn't quite sure. And I thought about me. I didn't, I definitely didn't want to do it as a combat because I wanted something with a little bit, just that just didn't, that doing it as a combat did not feel right to me.
00:47:34
Speaker
And so I like put it open there for suggestions and Dylan, I have to give Dylan a shout out. He suggested modifying the mass combat rules. Yeah.
00:47:46
Speaker
And i think he even offered a couple of suggestions as to how this might go. And then I started looking at them and thinking about how a boxing match could play out in my head and with like the the the tokens, you know, that that you do use for those. And I was like, this is what I'm looking for. And so and then when I ran it in the game session, the boxing match,
00:48:09
Speaker
It was great. i mean, there was there was there was real stakes. the it it It went like a boxing match goes. So like one round, one fighter definitely had the advantage.
00:48:21
Speaker
Second round happened. The other fighter came fought his way back. You know, it was it worked out perfectly. And it was great. It was great. And I think that's that's one of the things really I think is a good takeaway with all of this is just how flexible these can be for a variety of situations. Yeah, that sounds super fun. And it sounds it sounds thematic, right? There there was this whole thing in Holler about gouging.
Balancing Immersion and Simplicity
00:48:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:50
Speaker
Like we were we were thinking about it. i was I was sort of the main person thinking about it for a long time where where I'm like, well, okay, how do we want to do gouging and holler? And I thought, okay, well, we have we have the the the, what is it, the taunting phase. And, you know, we're we're calling out, right? I thought we would have this this this progression of the call out versus the playing to the crowd and then the actual fighting and, you know, and building...
00:49:22
Speaker
I don't know, some kind of bonuses or whatever, or using cards or something to simulate not just the gouging fight itself, but the buildup to it, which is almost as important, right?
00:49:38
Speaker
I thought I had a pretty good working system and i and it would be fun. I'm pretty, I'm almost sure of it it would be fun. Like, oh, that's that's a good, that's cool. That's cool.
00:49:48
Speaker
But we finally decided just to go with straight up fight. Just do a barehanded fight right there in front of everybody.
00:50:00
Speaker
And if you want to have some support roles from people who are, are yelling and screaming out weaknesses or whatever, then that can support their fighting role for that, for that round. Right. And it, it it works better. It's cleaner. It's, it's already there. It's in the rules already.
00:50:19
Speaker
And now we just have a gouger edge, which basically means you get you ignore ridiculous amounts of penalties when you're barehanded, which is great. It's perfect, right? But the other way would have been fun too.
00:50:31
Speaker
And there's nothing wrong with that. But for a published thing, we were like, simplicity versus... Immersion. Always that question comes up. Always.
00:50:45
Speaker
Is how, I mean, you know, there's there's there's some subsystems in Savage Rules that may be a little too much. I think the original dueling rules.
00:50:56
Speaker
oh for Deadlands? Yeah, ended up sometimes being a little much. Where you're just like, wow, okay. There's a lot going on here. And it's it's immersive.
00:51:08
Speaker
Yes. But it's also,
00:51:13
Speaker
it also feels like it just takes up too much, especially for the other people around you. Sure. It's like decking in Shadowrun. Sure. Yeah. I mean, not, not that extreme. not Not to that extreme, but it's in the same fundamental family. I get what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and so, but, but that's, that's a matter of opinion, right? Immersion versus simplicity. And and I think it's, I think that's a good metric to go by when you're, when you're looking at these things. And especially as a designer of the system, you have to do it.
00:51:45
Speaker
But as a GM, when you're running it, sometimes that immersion trumps simplicity and it's okay. Yeah. the The sparring match that we had in Hunt Cluster. I mean, actually that was more on the simplistic side. But at the same time, there was yup there was a couple of support rolls in there from folks. And ultimately, it was still pretty fun. There were stakes. And though those dice rolls did matter.
00:52:12
Speaker
Yeah. It was very tense, actually. Yeah. It was a tournament we'd set up. So I had a bracket and everything. yeah um But yeah, I mean, and I just took that. I took a page directly from our discussions about gouging.
00:52:25
Speaker
I'm like, don't make don't overcomplicate this. It's a one-on-one, bare-fisted fight. Make it that. Whoever gets a wound first wins. Yeah. You know, it's not as high stakes as gouging where you're just like, okay, okay.
00:52:41
Speaker
you know Whoever gouges out the other person's eyes wins or whatever. But but um but yeah, its I just decided to make it simple. We already have. your Your edges now count for everything that they count for.
00:52:55
Speaker
i'm I'm putting out cards. Let's do this. It's already in the rules. Let's just do it. oh So I don't know. I'm not saying don't do it anywhere any other way than rules as written. I'm absolutely not saying that.
00:53:08
Speaker
I'm just saying I tend to start there before I do any modifications because it's already there. It is. It's what people know. It's what people know.
00:53:21
Speaker
And it it remains it means for less explanation at the table. Yes. um All you have to do is say, see dramatic tasks, savage worlds. Exactly. Oh, boy. Yeah, that that's that's where... that's where i mean, obviously, another episode, but man, that's where I really just absolutely throw... I don't want to say I throw the rules out the window because I absolutely do not do that. But...
00:53:42
Speaker
Again, i don't, I, I, I'm hard pressed to think of a dramatic test that I've ever actually run rules has written. So I am, I am, I'm apparently making a case for me being one of the worst Savage Worlds GMs out there.
00:53:55
Speaker
No, I would not say that. I would just say, i don't know. I just tend to, I just tend to be, and like I say, Savage Worlds is very forgiving. It really is do You just do it and it's not going to break anything. Yeah.
Closing Remarks and Announcements
00:54:07
Speaker
That's the fourth F. It's fast, fierce, fun, and forgiving.
00:54:10
Speaker
It is. It is. It really is. Anyway, that's that's social conflicts. did we did we Did we solve all the problems with it? I feel like we solved all the problems with it. All the problems are solved.
00:54:26
Speaker
Thanks for hanging out with us. Whether you're behind the screen, at the table, or lost in your own story, we hope that you found a little inspiration. If you enjoy our tangents, be sure to connect with us on Discord and follow us on socials to keep the conversation going.
00:54:40
Speaker
Until next time.
00:54:52
Speaker
Okay, shameless plug for Han Cluster. There's a new adventure probably already out as of this podcast. So go check it out. It's called The Lost Waltz. And it's nice to see the product line continue.