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Daughters of the Cult (Part 2)
109 Plays8 months ago
This week on the Mothers of all Crime we are wrapping up our talk about the docu series "Daughters of the Cult. Part 2 focuses on the infamous 4 o'clock murders.
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May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction: Mothers and Infamous Crimes
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals.
Series Focus: The Four O'Clock Murders
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
00:00:35
Speaker
Continuing our Daughters of the Cult series, which is two parts, is part two of Daughters of the Cult, which we're going to be focusing on the four o'clock murders. Yes. So for anyone who is coming in to this episode, definitely go back and listen to the first one. It's going to give you a lot more context. um You probably could listen to them separately, but abbreviations and timeframes, it's going to make more sense if you do part one first. Agreed. Agreed. Do you want me to just lay out the basic specs? ah Yeah, give us a recap.
Historical Context: Mormon History and Joseph Smith
00:01:11
Speaker
oh so i'm gonna set the scene a little bit because we're in houston and irving texas because these are they're called the four o'clock murders which kind of implies that it's a murder in one place that happens at four o'clock but it's actually four murders occurring in three locations in different areas all around this four o'clock time, which is a significant time ah for the Mormon people, I guess, because I guess that was the time that Joseph Smith was executed when he was in prison was 4pm. So that's like a significance and why four o'clock is significant for Mormons.
Victim Details and Unintended Casualties
00:01:49
Speaker
But this was
00:01:52
Speaker
Let me just look at the date. June 27th, 1988. So that was 36 years ago. And it was all in Texas. Four people died. And their names were Mark Chenoweth. I just listened to this. And I'm still saying that. I know. And I'm never gonna pronounce them right. So we're sorry. Yeah, I'm really sorry. Mark and Dwayne Chenoweth. Jennifer Chenoweth and Eddie Marston. So it's three adult men and one little eight-year-old child. Jennifer um was with her father at the time of the shootings and was a casualty in the situation.
Challenges in Perpetrator Identification
00:02:35
Speaker
And at first
00:02:38
Speaker
It was hard to say who did this, how it was done, and in Texas, and in most places, you need to know who committed what crime in order to prosecute it. So the police were having a very difficult time initially discussing what happened. We could talk about the family's reactions to the deaths, or we could talk about the ensuing police stuff with Cynthia. So I think your first you were totally right that this was a very so symbolic decision.
Symbolic Links to Joseph Smith's Execution
00:03:16
Speaker
So June 27th at four o'clock in 1844 was when Joseph Smith, who is the founder of the Mormon religion, was murdered in Illinois in his jail cell. So it was basically like an angry mob who came after him for a multitude of reasons. um And
00:03:38
Speaker
it is very interesting that it was the same day and time fast forward. So a lot of people tend to, it would it's more like of a memory thing and to have such violence occur on this day really kind of showed how hard turn that this group has gone.
Disguises and Evasion Tactics of the Attackers
00:04:00
Speaker
um And You're right, when it comes to prosecuting a crime, you have to know who committed what crime. And leading up to this, there each murderer appeared to be completely identical. they All the individuals approached the victims in a blue suit. They had a beard, very conspicuous. They all drove up in stolen trucks.
00:04:28
Speaker
Um, there was no fingerprints, no positive IDs by witnesses, nothing. So the police kind of just, again, like we talked about last time, very orchestrated, very calculated, and they're just sitting there not knowing really where to go next, but I don't blame them. For sure. I mean, initially no one even knew these were connected until the reports came in and it just seemed impossible that the same person could have gone to each location. and committed all the crimes because they were all at the same time in different places. So they knew that they were looking for multiple perpetrators, but they didn't have good witnesses because you're right, everyone's dressed the same in similar trucks that don't belong to them.
00:05:12
Speaker
So it is very difficult to prove the who, what, when, and why. They only knew that the similarities between these people is that they're all former members of, I think at this time, it's the kingdom of God is what they're calling themselves.
Jennifer: A Witness Caught in Violence
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, so they're all former followers of Erbil of Aaron. They're all former followers of Erbil of Aaron, not necessarily kingdom of God. That's, you know, what that's a very good distinction here. Yes. Because Kingdom of God kind of became the offset because when he died, they all kind of split into their three groups. um And poor, Jennifer, she just wanted to go with her dad for the day and like hang out. The fourth thing was just kind of a casualty of you can't leave a witness alive who saw the whole thing. She never was intended to be a victim. But
00:06:06
Speaker
you do what you got to do. they They went with a purpose and a plan and they had to follow the plan.
00:06:13
Speaker
oh Yeah, they did. um I mean, it makes sense if you're thinking from a completely logical with no empathy kind of perspective, because she did see everything it seems or and she could have identified probably the shooters because these people are all in the same religious group. So they couldn't leave her essentially.
Erville's Hit List and Cult's Blood Atonement
00:06:41
Speaker
So we had talked about the book of the New Covenant, the kind of crazy scribbles that were put together
00:06:51
Speaker
while Erville was in prison. And in that was a hit list. It was, to my understanding, kind of woven in. It wasn't like a, number one, murder so-and-so. Number, like it was kind of like inconspicuous in the book, but direct enough where people who had followed him for a while could understand blood atonement to certain individuals. And all of these people were
00:07:23
Speaker
people on that list. And because of that, and the rumors that someone is starting to go on this list caused a lot of fear within the community. Absolutely. I mean, it's terrifying because I think a lot of people were starting to feel that the group had less power without Erbil because at this point, he's dead. But if something this terrible could still happen, clearly at his command.
Community Fear and Witness Protection
00:07:54
Speaker
That meant everybody else mentioned in the books were potentially next. And I think it was Anna and the Daughters of the Cult that made a good point at some point where she said, I didn't think I would be a target, but I knew that I could end up getting hurt or killed just in the process of another target. Because all of these people all know each other and all interacting. And she was living with Mark and his family at the time of the shooting.
00:08:22
Speaker
So she knew that she was also in physical danger. And I think that almost everyone in this group feared for their lives. Oh, absolutely. And they kind of started to turn on each other, where you don't know who is dangerous at this point. You don't know who's part of the secret community. You don't know who's capable of what, because all of them have basically been trained to be killers. So yeah it doesn't matter if it's your mother, brother, sister, people started carrying guns just to protect themselves from their closest people. And Mark's family, which obviously he was a target, he was eliminated, but there was suspicion that his wife was also coming up next and his whole family actually went into witness protection, which I'm kind of glad that they stepped up and offered that to them.
00:09:15
Speaker
I know it does seem like witness protection played a pretty big role in this story overall. I think that they were cult victims and they there was so much there was so much interstate and inter-country stuff going on with this group that I am not surprised that the cops, the FBI, all of these things are involved because there are so many crimes happening in Mexico, in Texas, in Utah, it's all interconnected. So, I mean, they definitely needed the protection. Yeah, and that's what's so hard is the the girls in the documentary kept kind of pointing out the fact that
00:09:58
Speaker
the individuals that were down in Mexico, there wasn't a lot of communication with them. So you didn't necessarily know the people in Texas, Denver, Salt Lake. They weren't necessarily communicating with those down in this rural part of Texas, um excuse me, Mexico. So when you're isolated like that, and we see this across a lot of groups, they tend to get more and more extreme because they don't have that outside influence being like, maybe not the best plan.
Cult Isolation and Internal Distrust
00:10:28
Speaker
like Absolutely. and
00:10:32
Speaker
so kind of drink of surprise to me Yeah. And when you don't know who's picking up this book and starting the eliminations, that's that other idea of like, you're constantly everyone's a suspect, because you don't know per se who is behind it all.
00:10:53
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Everyone's a suspect. Someone in within the group has turned. Multiple people have. And so you can't trust anyone. But it's definitely easy to be suspicious of the people the furthest away, because you're not seeing them all of the time. And they're isolated from the group, but they're probably also isolated from the community that they're even living in, in Mexico, because they're white people, a lot of them are fugitives. They may not speak the language and they're polygamists and they're in an extreme religious cult. So they're not even having community interactions. And there's no social media. People don't have cell phones. So they have very limited communication with the people that they do know in the States. Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
And I sometimes, I'm so glad you said polygamists because I feel like this group, I almost forget that they're polygamists. Like they have so much other stuff going on that the polygamy is so low on the totem pole, where yes, there's polygamy. Yes, there's underage brides. Yes, there's a lot of abuse. wait I hate to say that you kind of forget about it versus like it was so high up in some of these other groups where this one is you have murder, hits, like firebombing. Like you have all these crazier connections that it's weird to say that polygamy is like the least concerning thing they do.
Violence vs. Polygamy: Shifting Priorities
00:12:30
Speaker
Right. It really is super minimal in the whole thing. I feel like there's a few mentions in the series, obviously, about the polygamy of it all. And I've read several articles, and they are mentioning how toxic polygamy was growing up, how it was very difficult for women. um I think it's Anna and Celia's mother that is still but a believer. She, I think that it just gets swept away because there's so much murder and violence and other things happening. Yeah. Allegamy, who cares? Right. it's I never thought I would say that, but here we are.
00:13:14
Speaker
who um But I think it you had mentioned earlier the kind of response to these murders by
Impact on Mark's Family and Suicides in the Cult
00:13:24
Speaker
the families. So we kind of talked about how Mark's family, what was left of them went in into witness protection. A lot of people started getting really concerned, but it it also kind of derailed Lillian, who was his wife, her whole life. They were in this group, but they were monogamous. They had their kids and they truly were, after Louis Varen's death, trying to
00:13:53
Speaker
teach their kids to live without fear, be into the community. Like they really were trying to like move into a normal life in a community, building up their children and confidence. And this broke her, absolutely broke her. Absolutely. And there's so much pressure and there's so much fear and there's so much helplessness that would come up in a situation like this, especially feeling maybe that you can't protect yourself, you can't protect your kids. They had taken in other children who had left the cult. So, I mean, she has six biological children that she's now 100% responsible for. She is a target on a hit list by a madman who's dead and has all of these henchmen that are members of her own family, potentially, that are after her. I mean,
00:14:50
Speaker
the mental torture this person went through. I feel terrible for her. Yeah. And really, unfortunately, it actually ended up leading to her committing suicide with some of her children in the house. And I can't even imagine can't even imagine. But as we go through the docu series, unfortunately, this is not uncommon in this group. um yeah Isaac, who we mentioned in the last episode, who testified against his own dad, Erville, and and so basically was the main person who helped put him into prison, also did that three years after testifying. And there's a rough number that was mentioned in the docuseries was about nine members during this period had committed suicide.
00:15:44
Speaker
I read online it was a lot higher, more into double digits, but it doesn't seem like there's an exact number other than it's common. I think it's just a, it's, they're, compared to the group size, it's a lot. and And I think that it would be ridiculous to say that the traumas of all their childhoods and a lot of their adult experiences even
Struggles of Former Cult Members
00:16:13
Speaker
contributed to that. And I think that it would be really hard to adjust to regular life um and just to know, to know such evil and to see such terrible things and to not have like a real sense of who you are and how to function. I think that,
00:16:33
Speaker
the people who left went through a lot when they left. And it was very scary. And it's not just like, i I didn't like this church. I don't really like my family. It's more of a you're in the mafia at birth and you it's very scary to leave. Yeah, basically have no other options. Yeah. And I think that got even worse, ironically, after herbal died.
Post-Erville Crimes and Aaron's Leadership
00:16:59
Speaker
So he had that control and power already over the flock but like we had mentioned that once he died the group kind of split into different groups and one of them was a tarot who led down in Mexico and he really embraced that criminal side that Erville kind of started and took those young teenagers and pushed the
00:17:31
Speaker
horror theft, money, narcotics, like really dangerous avenue and again input that violence where you leave or you try to leave there's going to be consequences. Up until a point his own father follower actually ended up shooting him in the back for an unknown reason but I take it probably because he just didn't want to deal with it anymore. He was too much. yeah for sure and from there you have the next one and again all orchestrated the book of new covenant laid out who was supposed to take over he laid out his succession line which is kind of funny because you have other groups who followed dan jordan who was like the second in command and then you have this group who's saying nope
00:18:31
Speaker
daddy said this, book a new covenant says this, therefore, the next person in line will be William Ebert LeBaron. And that's who we'll be. Right. Yeah, that was the general understanding that that's who is going to take over. And I mean, I guess it's forward thinking to put all these plans in your master Bible. Yeah. died under suspicious circumstances. And he had backups for his backups, which I also think was quite clever. um Yeah, it's like a British royal family. Oh, yeah. He's like, okay, well, I just assume you're gonna piss someone off and they'll off you. So let's do a backup.
00:19:20
Speaker
But between these two, they they really took off from a criminal and violence perspective, where they even started trafficking their own women and their sisters. And I think that's kind of where the morality starts to sway. And it's no longer about the religion, but more about the violence and the access that they already had established. Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:53
Speaker
But again, he didn't stay in power. He moved on because I think the group again realized, okay, we're doing, we're doing a little too much violence and not enough internal. Like at the end of the day, this is a religion and they pushed back a little bit. So an individual Aaron then stepped up who truly kind of became the real successor of the LeBaron group. He really embodied Orville and his calculated movements. He was very smart. He understood the scripture of it. And in a group like this, if you understand the scripture and how to manipulate that, you're golden. And at 18, he stepped in and really brought the whole thing back
00:20:51
Speaker
to where it originated. I did think it was really interesting how so many people were talking about how he knew the scripture backwards and forwards. I feel like that came up multiple times in the documentary. And yeah it really won him, like the crowd was very impressed by that. And I think that he just was a very good preacher, much like Erville was, I think that they had a lot of very similar qualities. And so it was just like, it felt like the prophet returning. Yeah, I agree. And I think it was also comfortable where you had this upbringing of religious foundations and the violence was because of God and in God's name, not just for the sake of violence. And there was that short period that I think the congregation felt it was more of of a crime organization and financially motivated than
00:21:48
Speaker
morally and religiously motivated. And they kind of pushed him over. And then that's how Aaron even came in. That makes sense.
Organized Violence and Arrests
00:21:58
Speaker
It does make sense. um He became the one mighty and strong, which was said a million times. ah you sir but it's so to But he was very committed to carrying out the doctrine that was in the Bible that Erville had written in prison. He was preaching blood atonement, the convenience of just saying that God wants you to kill these people who are inconvenient for you, basically. um But he was really able to organize things and was able to follow in Erville's footsteps in terms of arranging hits.
00:22:40
Speaker
And the reason we bring this up is because I'm sure most people have started to guess that these four o'clock murders were not a coincidence. Someone had to have planned them. And clearly it was not the people of that flock. So it had to have been the splinter group. They just didn't know who it was. Yeah. yeah And some people thought that Heber was still the leader of the that part of the group. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it wasn't like everybody knew that it was Aaron. So there was a lot of confusion. And yeah, and very smart on their part, they definitely started kind of doing this hand in hand where Aaron was the brains and he was the bronze and he really again embraced the violent streak within him.
00:23:29
Speaker
And nothing I could find did he ever deny Hebert specifically, deny being the leader. He just kind of like avoided the questions. So in 1988, him and two others, Richard and Doug, were arrested for auto theft of Phoenix. And remember, this is how they were funding their community. They were stealing cars in the United States, crossing the border, and then would sell them or sell parts or whatever in Mexico. And that's how it was very lucrative for them. That's how they did it. And the three of them actually got caught by the police. And instantly became that suspect.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah, they're sitting in jail for auto theft when the police get a call from Cynthia LeBaron, who's in Mexico, and she wants to talk.
Cynthia's Confession and Immunity
00:24:24
Speaker
She wants to meet the cops in Texas, and she meets them there. She's given immunity. and she confesses to her role in the four o'clock murders, and because she was involved, she knows everybody else that's involved. So she puts points her fingers squarely at Heber, Richard, and Douglas, and they're already conveniently sitting in prison, so they're pretty easy to find. And then yeah cynth yeah Cynthia also goes to witness protection. Yeah.
00:24:59
Speaker
Because again, so we had Hubert and Doug who were adults, they pled guilty to the auto theft charges serving 10 years. Richard was a minor doing three and a half. So the idea in the doctor that kind of got presented was they agreed to it, the lesser charge hoping that they would just be looked the other way at and people wouldn't keep going. But they were suspects. But again, like we said, you can't prosecute any of them unless you know who did which one. And they all were very coordinated. So if they made a mistake and had Richard killing Mark, and it was actually Heber, the whole thing goes up in flames. And without Cynthia, this they they would have got away with it. Absolutely would have got away with it.
00:25:51
Speaker
ah totally because it it would be impossible to prove who did what which is why this is a very smart crime actually it just you there's too many people involved and when there's so many people involved which you absolutely need for this type of crime to work inevitably someone is gonna break away from the group is gonna rat you out and it's gonna get the best deal for themselves which is definitely what Cynthia does because I think that she was terrified. And I think that she probably wanted to come back to the States, leave the group. And it would have just been impossible for her to do that. But if she gets them put in prison, then it's she doesn't really have to deal with them at least anymore. Yeah, they were gonna get out. What do you think said Cynthia's motivation was because that I can't seem to
00:26:48
Speaker
really pinned down. I do think maybe something had happened in her own family that motivated her much like Isaac. But we never got any of that information and I wish we did. Yeah, I, I wonder maybe if it was because of Jennifer. getting killed oh as like kind of an additional because she didn't bargain for that. Like she was a lookout, she participated, she helped plan. She is totally has responsibility for this and was actively involved in the planning. And I think that she probably should have gotten some sort of punishment for that. But she did ensure convictions for other even worse people. so
00:27:36
Speaker
I guess it's morally fine, neutral. But I don't know if that she bargained for an innocent child also being killed in this situation. It's kind of different when it's all just adults. That's a good point because those were people on the list. Those were people who needed blood atonement and right an eight year old was on that list. So not what she bargained for, absolutely. And that is the one hard thing about our legal system, where if you're given immunity, it's the idea of you sacrifice one to get the bigger fish. And kind of what we talked about last time, I don't know Cynthia ever would have been involved in something like this, if it wasn't religious manipulation, fear, instill brainwashing. And I think they probably took that in consideration because again, she didn't
00:28:30
Speaker
per se pull a trigger. She helped plan, she did surveillance, she organized kind of the, I don't want to use a gender stereotype, but like the secretary of the group and kind of making everything pretty and perfect and like, all right, now off you go, go do your task. like Yeah, she kind of like managed the situation, ah helped put people where they needed to go kind of like the events coordinator. Yeah. Very feminine role, but yeah, right did very needed. And she also had one other little tidbit of information, because again, they were focused very much on Heber. And this was the first time they realized he is not the one mighty and strong.
Investigation Shifts to Aaron
00:29:22
Speaker
He did not organize this. And for two years, Aaron has actually been the one in charge.
00:29:28
Speaker
who obviously was on a run, but not even on the radar at the time. Yeah, that's that's definitely true, because a lot of people still assume Tiber was the one mighty and strong, was the master of the group. So nobody was looking at Erin really for this. um But yeah, Cynthia knows who's in charge, and she spills the beans. one yeah So eventually they obviously all go on trial and it it's so tough because these three at this point all of a sudden and kind of change the tune and truly start giving that religious I believe in my father's teaching there's a photo of one of them holding a Bible to his head and
00:30:26
Speaker
Yes, you have people in the docuseries. I think it was Anna who mentioned it as a kid. Hebrew was a sweet kid and he just kind of went the other direction as he got older. But time and time again, it has been shown his motivations were never religious. He never truly understood any of the doctrine. He just kind of went along with it. And now he's over here telling his attorneys and the courts that Oh, I'm very religious. This is what my father instilled in me. Like it's what a, what a flip.
00:31:01
Speaker
I mean, I can't blame him from a like defense perspective, but what a flip. Definitely. And unlike a lot of the episodes we've had so far, Cynthia really kind of came in. Yeah, she made some bad decisions and kind of participated. But she testified in there. And these cases were very reliant on her testimony. And she sat in front of those individuals and pointed and explained everything with confidence. She really came in as like a hero compared to a lot of the other women we talked about. Yeah, I mean, she might be a murderer. But she did also
00:31:46
Speaker
turn around and do some good and I agree with you that she was brainwashed and I think that that probably was a big part of her coming forward was that she was just totally disillusioned with the religion and had come to a place of a new understanding and I think that she that's why I thought that maybe Jennifer was just too much for her and she realized that none of this made sense and she was kind of being brave for Jennifer and get her justice. But at least that's what I like to think. That's ah it's a good idea. Because there's this concept of, and I'm not Mormon. I've never been Mormon. I just listen to a lot of Mormon stuff. But but there's this idea that a lot of ex-Mormons talk about where they have this shelf and something doesn't feel right and they don't like it, but it's fine. And you just put it on the shelf and you don't think about it.
00:32:45
Speaker
And you keep doing that and you keep doing that and keep doing that until all of a sudden the shelf breaks. And then the floodgates open and you kind of realized everything for what it truly is. And I wonder if Jennifer was her final thing on the shelf that kind of just broke it and she realized what she actually was a part of. I think that's a perfect way to
Cynthia's Role as a Reluctant Hero
00:33:12
Speaker
describe it. It's like the It's a much, it's a more beautiful way of saying the straw that broke the camel's back where it's just, it's the final thing. I just cannot take it anymore because I wouldn't be surprised if she'd always had doubts and just felt like this was her role and it just was too much. And she came back with a vengeance and wanted revenge probably for all of the abuse that she had suffered.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So thanks to her, ah court case started. They were a jury trial. It took four days of deliberation for the jury. And it came back guilty for Hebert. And oh, wait, I mixed them up. Hebert did get guilty. He got a wife sentence. Doug also got guilty, life sentence. And Richard ended up taking a plea agreement and only doing five years. And as a reminder, he is also the minor.
00:34:26
Speaker
What did he plead out to again? What was the charge for that? Was it like manslaughter? They didn't say it. That's a very good deal. But it's a very good deal. I guess the one because he's a minor. minor definitely had to do with it, but I think he was 17. Like he wasn't a young minor. Do you think he gave information too? That would be my best guess because that deal is too good to have two life sentences, right? Yeah. The other guy's got forever and he got five years, which is he going to do that in a juvenile detention center? Because that would even be easier. Yeah, right. oh
00:35:09
Speaker
I wouldn't be surprised if he also gave information, but maybe he didn't testify because that would have been too much for him. And maybe that's why he didn't get immunity, but he did give information that maybe it was helpful in the prosecuting of the other people because Richard didn't have a trial because he pled guilty. So it wouldn't have come up. He wouldn't have had to testify at all. Yeah, I'm not sure. Um, let's see. I can do a quick search. I feel like he'd be the first one I would offer that to as well. If I needed more information, I would probably target the minor and offer them a plea deal because it seems to it's the person with the most to lose essentially. and Right. Yeah, because getting life when you're 17 is
00:36:01
Speaker
a very long time. But it does happen. And that's the thing. And there's no way they could have given him immunity at this point, just because of the severity of it all. And they didn't need to. They already had a testimony saying what it was going to be. But I don't know. And it would be interesting. And I wish I had done this, looking up kind of the reputation of those juvenile systems because it's really dependent on the state. So there are some juvenile systems, this is just my opinion and talking to other professionals in the field, that some states are very, very lenient and it's more like, folk they they say it's focused on rehabilitation, but it's just really a cushy babysitter until they turn 18 and they let them back out. But then there are other states
00:36:58
Speaker
like New York that take juvenile crime very seriously and they do not, that is jail, that is not a vacation, it is not easy, versus places like in New England tend to be a little bit more supportive in their rehabilitation. So it would be interesting what that state's reputation is. Or, because I guess it wasn't federal charges though?
00:37:29
Speaker
I wonder where he got sentenced. I can't find it anywhere. I'm actually, I'm not sure. I thought it was in Texas, but I don't know now that I'm, because were they, they were in jail in Arizona, I believe. I'm sure everyone wants to listen to us Google this, but it's bothering me now because I don't know where it was. Yeah. The only other note I do have, which Now this kind of ties it all together. is Richard was the one that was actually determined to have killed Dwayne and Jenny. So it was determined that he was the one who did the double murder, yet he got the least amount of time, which is what I thought was so interesting versus the other two who got white sentences but only killed one person. He had to have given something up. He had to have. He must have. He must have.
00:38:21
Speaker
Oh, I mean i wouldn't wonder if it was Aaron because I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Soon after, obviously we mentioned that Aaron was on the run and wanted by the FBI. At this point, he's going through his trial. In 1995, Aaron was then arrested in Mexico, extradited to the United States, which was relatively close to when All of this was kind of wrapping up. I wonder if his deal was, I'll help you get Aaron if I get a lesser sentence. I, I think it must have been.
Richard's Lighter Sentence and Secrets
00:39:05
Speaker
I don't think. Which would never be public. So that that's my guess.
00:39:10
Speaker
Yeah. And I bet if anyone asked Richard how he got it, he would just say that he was a juvenile, because I think that he his life would have been in danger if he admitted that he gave up information. Oh, absolutely. That's definitely not something you're supposed to do. Oh, absolutely.
Heber's Remorse and Indoctrination
00:39:30
Speaker
And interestingly, Heber, who was found who had killed Mark, wrote letters of accepting his role in Mark's death and send them to the children and also accept a responsibility for the role that it played in their mother's suicide. And I thought that was strange for him because people talked about how basically criminal and homicidal he was. But then I remembered
00:40:07
Speaker
earlier there were talks about how as a kid he was sweet and kind and it kind of just flipped what's he got power I wonder if after all this and he got charged and sentenced to life he had this moment of remembering who he truly was not who the group made him become and sent those letters out as a hope of listen i I can't even imagine but I want you to know that I understand my role and I apologize and I ask your forgiveness for what is to come basically.
00:40:48
Speaker
I think that it was genuine um I just was looking at his Wikipedia earlier today, Heber LeBaron, and it said that he had converted to a different type of Christianity after he got convicted and that he's like deeply ashamed of all the actions that he did. And I think that, for me anyway, it's easy to look at these fundamentalist groups, especially this violent crazy one, and look at the women as victims and the men as perpetrators. But I think that Heber was also brainwashed and also under the control of the group and had been indoctrinated since birth. It's very, very difficult to resist that while you're in it. Right. Doesn't matter. Gender at that point, brainwashing is brainwashing. And do I think some of them did really terrible things? Yes. Yeah. yeah do i think he that a terrible thing right but Do I think the majority of the people that we're talking about would have done it without
00:41:47
Speaker
that brainwashing and generational conditioning, conditioning I don't think they would. Heber, I think would have probably been an okay person. Aaron, on the other hand, I think he probably, he's just a bad person because he's just a carbon copy of her. Yeah, very narcissistic, very self centered. I mean, that's just, that's someone with no remorse. Yeah, in my opinion. Oh, my favorite, the video of when he got arrested and extradited, he looks the dead of the eye and goes, No, no, no, no, I'm not involved in the cult. I'm a director of an English school. Oh my god. So, so creepy. He's really confident. He says it like, what? I'm just like a normal dorky guy. I would never do anything.
00:42:42
Speaker
Oh, it's so funny. Like, it's not funny, but it's so funny. but It's kind of funny, because he still got arrested. It's not like they believed him. Oh, yeah, arrested, tried, convicted of masterminding multiple murders, because not only were the four o'clock murders, he also orchestrated a long con of Dan Jordan, who was the leader of another split off and on the list. So he had his own little stack of murder mysteries. And then sentenced to 45 years in jail. Yeah. Prison, not jail. Yeah.
Cult's Devastating Impact on Lives
00:43:21
Speaker
Big distinction for sure. There is. It'll be a very long 45 years being in a county jail. That would be a very long time to be there. ah And so grand total between kind of it all, we have 33-ish.
00:43:43
Speaker
murders. Because there is no formal count. There's definitely probably some out there that happened that we don't know about. And aut again, communication between government agencies and all that. So I would argue that's probably a lot harder than that. But 33 is the number that the docuseries kind of settled on. So let's say it's 33. And then there's also somewhere between like nine and 15 suicides. And then there are multiple members of the group that are serving life sentences in prison. I mean, the amount of unnecessary lives wasted in this situation is just almost unthinkable. Yeah. And you know that that number is probably a lot higher
00:44:33
Speaker
because it's probably not including the quote mystery deaths or the mystery disappearances.
Speculation on Missing Members
00:44:41
Speaker
Because under all of their reigns, there were people that would just up and disappear. Never to be seen or heard from again. I'm guessing they're probably not a lot. But this is probably more of a desert. A lot of desert. Yeah, it's either people who are running away. and actually managed to get away or people that were executed or forced to go into hiding. I mean, there's no good situation that would happen that they'd be just out of sight forever. Right. Absolutely. And what is crazy is there is still this luring fear of this group, even though
00:45:27
Speaker
The original founder is dead. The second coming is in prison.
Lingering Fear and Irrational Logic
00:45:34
Speaker
It appears the group has kind of disassembled and gone into the shadows, but the the book was never completed. The list was never done. And there are still people that have his beliefs. And at any time, they could pick it back up. And it's not necessarily like, hey, no, Jonathan was on this list, but Jonathan died of natural causes. But he has a son named Andy. Let's do Andy in replacement to blood at home their family to get rid of this and for the families to the rest of them to be saved. It's always a possibility.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's perfect law logic, flawless. But they definitely would do that. They would just make substitutions, because it's whatever's convenient. It's an excuse to murder people, is what they're doing with the blood atonement. And if any of his unhinged followers reemerge, I mean, it would be terrible and terrifying. I'm hopeful that enough years have passed. that there are less and less people that would want to pick up where he left off. It seems like there are just people that still live in that like community that he had lived in. um But yeah, it's... Yeah,
00:47:10
Speaker
it's sad. It really is. But part of me really wants to read this book too. but but The other part of me thinks it would be really interesting to see if I can read between the lines to find who is on this list of blood atoning? Or is it just blatantly like a chapter in the book that says blood atonement? Number one, Dan. Number two, Mark. I could be very curious what it looks like. Yeah, I agree. I don't think it's names though. I think it's descriptions.
00:47:47
Speaker
because or're like nicknames might be I feel like it's all written in riddles. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's probably trying to read a Bible, which is so difficult to do, honestly, because it's it's kind of written confusingly. It's not, it doesn't read like a story. And I feel like his was probably way worse than any Bible that I've seen, because he was a crazy person in prison. And it's not like this was being published and like this is just like,
00:48:24
Speaker
his ramblings that are being smuggled out on different pieces of paper. So right. And it was copied by members. So there's only about 20 copies in existence is their best guess. Because I looked like I was so little light summer read. Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna read the whole thing. But Yeah, skip to the hit list, right? It's not a public consumption. You can't just go buy it at Barnes and Noble. ah It was ah hand copied and written over and over again by wives. And that's how the few copies in existence did emerge is because they that's how they distributed it. And supposedly there's 15 names of people on this hit list. And I noticed through some article that I read,
00:49:17
Speaker
that not all of it was actually church members. He also was expanding it to anyone who really disgruntled him at any point. So there's definitely normal civilians outside the group, probably like presidents. He claimed to be the president, the true president of the United States. He's probably on there just because he stole his true title. I don't know. But it'd be interesting to see who he determined to be disloyal.
00:49:50
Speaker
I would like to read it, but I just feel like it's also, there's so many mistakes in it now because of all the copying that was done by multiple different people. There's always going to be mistakes. There's always going to be things that are like, not written exactly correctly. And it's just, I feel like it's going to be a lot of gibberish, but I would, I would definitely look at it. I'd be interested to see how it's structured. Like, is it structured like a book or is it just a diary?
00:50:19
Speaker
Do we have chapters? Is there categories? but I want a table of contents. I want a list of chapters. I'm gonna skip right to Hit List. Oh, dream. so Mr. Mormon Manson, please come from above and tell us your final command. but yeah I wonder how long it would have gotten if he had not that like he'd probably still be writing it if he was still alive. That's true. He probably because I, I stand by what I said, I don't think it was suicide. And I stand by he probably would have been over here having more conjugal visits and shooting off orders to people and orchestrating these things between him and Aaron combined. I don't think Aaron ever would have got caught if he was still alive.
00:51:11
Speaker
yeah Probably not. Because there would have been more fear. And I don't think Cynthia would have ran away because it would have been so controlled that she never would have been able to get away with it. Yeah. But also if Errol is still alive, even in prison, he would have still been in charge, I think, of this sect. And so like Aaron may have been like a leader in the community, but he wouldn't have been the one mighty and strong because I would have still been Errol. So, because i I don't think that you just stop being the prophet when you're in prison. Right. never go Because that's where he wrote the Bible. Right. That's a good point. And then none of the three subsets would have happened. Dan Jordan probably would still be alive and doing terrible things because he wasn't a threat. He would have been probably put in charge of something and just kept moving along. It definitely changed.
00:52:10
Speaker
the whole dynamic for the group when herbal died because he was the prophet for a while and he had been very, very strict and controlling and evil. So I'm sure it caused some chaos when he died, because everyone was expecting him to get out of it just like he had done before. Probably came as a huge glow to the community. Yeah. Oh, probably. Well that was pretty much the gist of it. What did you think of the documentary overall? It was okay. I feel like I should have been more enthralled by all the the murders. I just didn't find the people speaking to be very compelling but
00:53:00
Speaker
their stories were interesting. It was just like the people themselves were just they didn't have the charisma I was looking for, I guess. But I don't know if that's like an unfair critique of this. It was informative. but yeah I ah know what you mean about about certain characters in it. And the the son, what was his name? um Because there was one of the men in the series that I really actually enjoyed when he talked. And he was the one that opened the door for the raid to come in. Do you know who I'm talking about? I can see him, but I cannot think of his name. Yeah, tall brown hair, ended up joining the military. ah Yeah, I enjoyed him. I thought he i did a nice
00:53:55
Speaker
presentation where he was very much a little bit of emotion paired with the reality of it. I don't think he tried to make excuses for how he thought. He was just like, listen, this is what it was. Yeah, maybe that's what my my hesitation is. It still came off as very like keep sweet fake for a lot of them. But I think that I've noticed that and I i love LDS content not I guess FLDS content. I love a Cole. I love polygamy stuff I love the polygamy TV show, but I feel like I either like it as reality TV or I like a memoir By the FLDS where I can read it or I can listen to it as an audiobook where I'm not Actually listening to the people from the group which is it makes me feel kind of bad But I just feel like they are not authentic with how they're talking
00:54:52
Speaker
So it comes across as insincere. I get what you're saying because I think they came across very defensive and tried to justify a lot of things, which I understand from your from an outside person who would who has not experienced even a quarter of the violence and drama that they have. I would probably be a little defensive too. But I also think if you're going to do a documentary series like this, you kind of just have to stop trying to justify what like it is what it is. And it's okay. And because there is so little information about this specific subset, they might feel that they're the voice and it puts them in a really difficult position of trying to balance
00:55:41
Speaker
I don't want everybody to hate me, but also like I'm embarrassed of my part as well. But I was born into it, what I was gonna do. well It's a, it's a conflict. It really is because you, not only are, were you part of this cult, but like your entire family is this cult and it's associated with so many bad things and you're out of it now, but it still was your whole childhood and past. And it would be hard to, I, I agree with you about the, the guy that's a Marine, which I cannot think of his name either. eagle habit Igor. Igor.
00:56:19
Speaker
he had the most realistic take on everything, I felt like. And it was more it was much easier to listen to him talk. But I think that... there's a level to just surviving every day that they have to mentally wrap their heads around what happened and justify their father's actions, their mother's actions, Lillian's actions, all of these people, because these are all relatives and people who they care about a lot that have done these terrible things or have been super harmed in the process. So I think they just need to justify it for their own sakes.
00:56:57
Speaker
baby And that's understandable. But I just didn't find them to be um television stars. And I don't think that's going to be a thing for them. But I'll be interested in reading their memoirs so if they want to write them. There we go. Me in the middle.
00:57:15
Speaker
All right. Well, that was the LeBaron group, which I think I knew it was dark, but there's definitely things in there that did surprise me as well. a and gives a lot of context for some of the other groups that we have already talked about or go and talk about more um and where some of them kind of came from versus where the lines got drawn for each subset, which is interesting. Definitely. I love this like mini FLDS group. Yeah. Interesting dynamics. I wonder how many times their paths got crossed.
00:57:57
Speaker
Because they definitely wore like normal clothes too. So that's another difference where they decided the blood atonement thing was what really they were going to stick with. But they modernized with clothing as time went versus FLDS definitely stay with that strict traditional prairie dress kind of look. Then... That is true. They were... I mean, I guess they were modestly dressed in the older pictures, but they weren't all wearing matching dresses. But in time. Yeah. In style. Yeah. And it's, it's peculiar how each group has their own thing. So you have like the FLDS had that prairie dress, the Liberans, the blood atonement, the Kingstans had the pure blood. Like it's interesting how each of them have their own little thing they latch onto.
00:58:51
Speaker
We're definitely going to have to talk about the Kingstons. Oh, so many opinions. Amanda Ray, who is my, I'm obsessed with her, escaped the Kingstons, so I can't wait to talk about them. I would love to. That's a good, I think that would be great. All right. Well, any last thoughts on the LeBaron group and anyone we've talked about? I think so. How about you? No, I'm good. I'm kind of glad they're all done for now. All righty. Have a good one. Talk soon.