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Clone Watch - Episode 14
47 Plays6 months ago
We've got a long one this time, as Daryl, Nick, Lauren, and Betsy tackle the Mortis arc. There's a lot to unpack, and we dive right into that task. So quickly, in fact, that we forget to explain the Clone Watch concept for new listeners. Short version: Lauren's never watched Clone Wars before, while the rest of us have, so we gather first impressions and observations as we watch in chronological order.
- 00:00 Introduction
- 03:27 Overlords
- 1:07:50 Altar of Mortis
- 1:42:10 Ghosts of Mortis
To follow along with your viewing, you can find the Clone Wars chronological viewing list at:
https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Banter
00:00:11
Speaker
Casual Nerdity is podcast celebrating and discussing pop culture that we love. Movies, TVs, comics, books, games, you name it. Ari missed to talk about the good, what worked, and yeah, sometimes what didn't.
00:00:23
Speaker
All with an eye towards building up, not tearing down. Thanks for joining us.
00:00:32
Speaker
Welcome back to the Casual Nerdity Podcast and the next episode in our Clone Watch series. I'm Daryl. I'm Nick. I'm Lauren.
00:00:42
Speaker
And they can't get rid of me! Betsy! Betsy's back! Oh, I would want to get rid of you. don't know, you say that. We may as well just add you as a regular on Clone Watch.
00:00:54
Speaker
Yeah. Only sometimes. yeah If I have shit to say, then I will be here. ah The reason why we can't get you get rid of you is more of an emotional attachment rather than a physical incapacity.
Jedi Philosophy and Pop Culture References
00:01:05
Speaker
An attachment is forbidden! Blah blah blah blah blah.
00:01:09
Speaker
Oh, no. It sounds like very detrimental to things if we have attachments to things. Apparently. Except sometimes not. Attachments? Oh, attachments are bad, according to the Jedi. Except sometimes not. Oh, no.
00:01:22
Speaker
But we in looking at our show notes, we have quite a few walls of text. So we're going to forego our usual, hey, what you been up to?
00:01:34
Speaker
um And we we might do that in the next episode. Daryl, you don't want to tell them about what we saw on Friday? Um, the... The puppet? The marionette?
00:01:47
Speaker
The burlesque Mando with the marionette Grogu who shakes... With twerking? Yes, who shook his butt. Uh-huh, the twerking Grogu puppet? Spoilers, lauren Lauren has not seen that yet.
00:01:58
Speaker
i mean I mean, the context for that yet. But i am I am sure with Lauren's mastery of memes that the existence of Grogu is known.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yes, yes, I am aware of Grogu.
The Clone Watch Series Overview
00:02:14
Speaker
But we're we're we're going to dive straight into Clone Watch this time around. ah And Alex Damon of Star Wars Explained always says he loves it when Star Wars gets weird.
00:02:27
Speaker
Well, it doesn't get much weirder, Star Wars, than the episodes we're looking at on the show this time around. We have got Overlord, Season 3, Episode 15, Altar of Mortis,
00:02:41
Speaker
Season 3, Episode 16, and Ghosts of Mortis, Season 3, Episode 17, collectively known as the Mortis Arc. Hold on to your butts.
00:02:53
Speaker
Things are about to get weird, y'all. Oh, boy. Come on, let's get nuts. There it is. Also the exact one I was thinking of in my head, so thank you.
00:03:06
Speaker
You're welcome. See, I'm psychotic. I mean, psychic. Yes, the answer is yes. I think I was right the first time. Both are true. Both is good.
00:03:17
Speaker
Multiple things can be true at once. But are you saying authentic? Yes. Third thing. Jumping in to the first episode, Overlords, Season 3, Episode 15. The official description is really specific.
00:03:34
Speaker
Anakin learns of his destiny from a family of Force users. So imagine, if you will, that you are Dave Filoni. You have a hat.
00:03:45
Speaker
You have a nice hat. A cowboy hat. You have a cowboy hat. You have an obsession with wolves. Both are your trademarks. And as often happens since you started working on Clone Wars...
00:04:01
Speaker
George Lucas calls you into his office, but you're not ready for what he says this time. So, uh, uh, I want to explain what the force is. And I'm sure the next sentence was, and I want it to be like a crazy drug fueled trip.
00:04:16
Speaker
Are you down?
00:04:19
Speaker
And so we, we get into this episode. It starts off plainly enough. Um, with Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Ahsoka sent to investigate a mysterious ancient Jedi distress call, and then the weird starts right away.
Analyzing Key Characters and Relationships
00:04:36
Speaker
Because when there's weird force shit, of course they send the disaster lineage. Who else? Why, hmm, when something happens, always you three this.
00:04:47
Speaker
Now, now, Nick, Nick, Nick, do we really want to touch on her property? Well, that's why I didn't ask for for a clip of that. That's why I made it a bad Yoda impression.
00:05:01
Speaker
Thank you, because this month of all months. Exactly. This is our month, damn it. yeah i did I knew better than to do that. That's why I did it as a quote. In a Yoda quote style. You still gave her oxygen.
00:05:19
Speaker
Unfortunately. one yeah i gave the movie McGonagall oxygen and she deserves that line read. Well, that's because that's Maggie Smith. That's a separate point. But the the disaster lineage are all at the coordinates to rendezvous as are Rex and the fleet.
00:05:40
Speaker
and But they're not at the same place. So we get a little who's on first. And he's like, where are you guys? Rex is like, I'm at the meetup spot. Where are you guys? And he's like, no, you're not because we're at the meetup spot.
00:05:54
Speaker
Rex is like, well, I'm right here. So where are you? And he's all, I told you I'm at the spot. Can you like look out the viewport or something? I'm going jump up and down and wave my arms around. Okay. I'm doing it now. Do you see me?
00:06:05
Speaker
And then Rex sighing deeply and covering the mic. Is it a court martial? If we say we never found them and just leave. Why are you at soup? I'm at soup! Why you buying clothes at the soup store?
00:06:19
Speaker
There's only soup here! So that the power flickers and they find themselves face to face with the Hell Obelisk from Hellbound Hellraiser 2.
00:06:30
Speaker
The menacing d a I was going to make a joke about the giant D8 being like a green die or a purple die, but then I remembered there's this actual lore thing of a similar shape that would be thematically appropriate Legend Steve cut.
00:06:43
Speaker
So, Nick, since you're kind of the self-designated lore guy, you want to say shenanigans about the Thoyor?
00:06:50
Speaker
i that that's what that's That's what I am. I'm just a lore I mean, you're the one that assigned yourself that job. Because I'm the lore See? You didn't have to be. You chose this.
00:07:02
Speaker
The Thor-Lior. First appearing in the Dark Horse comic series Dawn of the Jedi, the Thor-Lor were huge octahedron-style starships that traveled across the galaxy collecting species and groups and then transferred them to the planet of Tython, where the origins of the Jedi Order began 36,000 years before the events of A New Hope in the Legends continuity.
00:07:30
Speaker
And so Obi-Wan can't even pinpoint where or even if they're in their own galaxy. They might be in a galaxy far, far away.
00:07:43
Speaker
Now, you just, you you may think you're being clever. Just put a pin in that until we eventually get around to making you watch Ahsoka. Oh, of course. In like five years.
00:07:55
Speaker
We'll get there when we get there. Eventually. Eventually. But they they look around the landscape of where they're at, and they see that they are in a classic Yes album cover as painted by Roger Dean.
00:08:11
Speaker
I understood reference. Or the ah Pandora, because it's floating. They are in a Roger Dean Yes album cover, Nick.
00:08:26
Speaker
and They did it first. They did it first. They did. I just made it a joke. In fact, I made the same joke when I first saw Avatar. was like, oh, look, it's a Yes album.
00:08:39
Speaker
I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong.
Philosophical Discussions on the Force
00:08:43
Speaker
but Yeah, so they're all on this planet and Obi-Wan's just all like, you know, we'll be fine as long as we stay together. so what happened? in narrator voice They did not, in fact, stay together.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, i I almost put that note in there myself, and I knew someone else would would do it. so oh I'm in the same camp. c CBS do it.
00:09:05
Speaker
I win. and edit it Sorry, go ahead. just thought I win. Yep. Betsy always wins. Because because you Betsy could you know could defeat all three of us with one hand tied behind her back.
00:09:22
Speaker
Oh, yeah. that's more something your wife could do. probably would still need both hands. Actually, your wife probably wouldn't need any hands at all, let's be real. Stephanie's just that powerful.
00:09:34
Speaker
That's true. That's true. Now you see, this all changes if it's a Danmaku battle, of course. Of course, of course. Naturally. but So, Anakin's separated from Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, and the daughter takes Anakin to the father, and Obi-Wan... We are being a little bit it little on the actual like summary because there's a lot going on. So we're hoping he wants it.
00:09:59
Speaker
Yep. And Obi-Wan wants to get into with, with summary and Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are confronted by the sun.
00:10:10
Speaker
And the sun approaches them all like, is it true that he's the chosen one? And then it'll be an Ahsoka instantly igniting their lightsabers. How about you back the fuck off? That is our emotional support war crime generator, and we are not sharing.
00:10:23
Speaker
The sun, ah don't point your silly laser swords at me. Also, you see, I am Sif, but also not. Turns into a freaking bat and flies away.
00:10:36
Speaker
Force Animorph. But this actually ties into ah to some ah some Legends lore where the Nightsisters actually recognize both the daughter and the son in their animal forms, describing him as as a gargoyle and her as a hippogriff.
00:10:57
Speaker
And then you... As they represent two sides of the light and dark. Then... weirdness starts happening again.
00:11:12
Speaker
Obi-Wan.
00:11:16
Speaker
Obi-Wan, have you done as I asked? Have you trained the boy? Master Qui-Gon, how are you here? am here because you are here. I don't understand.
00:11:28
Speaker
What is this place? Unlike any other, a conduit through which the entire force of the universe flows. Are we in danger? This planet is both an amplifier and a magnet.
00:11:40
Speaker
Three are here who seek Skywalker. They, like me, believe him to be the chosen one.
00:11:49
Speaker
You are right. The force within him is stronger than any known Jedi. I've trained him as well as I could, but he's still willful and balance eludes him.
00:12:00
Speaker
If he is the Chosen One, he will discover it here. And if not? Then you must realize with his power, this is a very dangerous place for him to be.
00:12:14
Speaker
Not ominous at all. Okay, but let's... Let's start by saying, welcome back Liam Neeson in the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi's master, Mr. Qui-Gon Jinn.
00:12:26
Speaker
he Yes, i I'm sure that it was not inexpensive to get him back. But worth it. it so Yes. Even then, he still brought the same gravitas and wisdom of Qui-Gon that has sort of entranced an entire generation, including mine.
00:12:45
Speaker
And all his Liam Neeson-ness.
00:12:48
Speaker
okay But I feel that you have something to say. Yes, I was going to say. here we go. We got some character stuff I can dig into. Let's fucking go! Okay, but, like, dude, can we talk about how Obi-Wan sees Qui-Gon's Force Ghost and gets the chance to talk to him, something he thought he would never be able to do again?
00:13:05
Speaker
Like, he would get to talk to the man who trained him, the man he looked up to, the man who he lived with, who he spent years trying to live up to the impossible expectations of, and getting even just a modicum of approval from? Yes, I'm aware a Jedi Apprentice books aren't canon anymore. No, I don't care, because they are good character shit.
00:13:20
Speaker
But anyway, the first thing he asks is not... How are you, Obi-Wan? It's, did you train Anakin? Like, he doesn't even bother saying hi first. It's just right to tell me about Anakin. How's Anakin? Did you do what I told you to do and train Anakin?
00:13:35
Speaker
The series never really dwells on it, but Qui-Gon's last words to Obi were about Anakin. You know, the boy Qui-Gon threw Obi to the side for in the fucking council chamber without saying a single word to Obi-Wan about it first, and Obi-Wan just had to stand there and silently pretend this was totally fine.
00:13:49
Speaker
Like, from the moment Anakin came into their lives, he was Qui-Gon's sole focus, and Obi-Wan only concerned him as far as how he related to Anakin getting trained. And in the beginning, Obi-Wan was just an impediment to Qui-Gon doing what he wanted, training the apprentice he really wanted.
00:14:04
Speaker
Everyone would never make that Anakin's problem because he's too good of a person for that, but just, like, you have to imagine, the man who was basically everything to you, who agreed to train you when everyone else wrote you off, who all but raised you and literally died in your arms, stands before you for the first time since you lit his fucking pyre, and all wants to talk about is the kid he replaced you with.
00:14:25
Speaker
And then because it's Obi-Wan, his endless insecurities rear their heads and he has to tell Qui-Gon that he tried his best, is still trying his best even after Anakin's knighting, but he knows he could have done better. like He got thrown in as a master and made to care for and train this tiny child before he had a chance to even figure out how to be a Jedi knight, much less a master.
00:14:43
Speaker
had no idea what he was doing, but he just knew that he could not disappoint Qui-Gon even in death, so he did everything he could to try to be the most bestest, perfectest Jedi master that ever existed,
00:14:54
Speaker
To prove he could complete this mission because let's be real, he lived in constant fear of letting Qui-Gon down and still does to this day. like There is so much he's done well in training Anakin and so many places where he's proved he was the best man for the job.
00:15:06
Speaker
But you just know Obi-Wan never sees that. He can only see the places where he feels he didn't do good enough. where he thinks he failed because he still believes himself to be responsible for so many of Anakin's actions, no matter how hard he pretends otherwise.
00:15:20
Speaker
Like, what I'm reading into Obi-Wan's words is that he's trying to be diplomatic about it for Anakin's sake as much as his own, because despite everything, you know, he doesn't work regret for a single second that he had Anakin in his life and isn't going to throw him under the speeder even when he arguably should.
00:15:32
Speaker
But for Obi-Wan admitting anything less than perfection to Qui-Gon is just tantamount about admitting complete and utter failure. Like Obi-Wan Kenobi is a 36-year-old Jedi Master. Again, that moment, I can't help but wonder if he feels more like a 13-year-old boy desperate to be good enough, but knowing he's once again been found lacking.
00:15:51
Speaker
Very good analysis on the further exploration of your Disaster leads, TM. And Qui-Gon is yet another prince in this ah chaos ladder of a family tree.
00:16:04
Speaker
but and and Before I speak, if I can just... ah I'll let i' let Eddie, let Lawrence and Daryl speak before I have my point.
00:16:15
Speaker
just Just to interject here for a second, that the whole thing about Qui-Gon's dying words too is I've never been totally convinced that he didn't Jedi mind trick Obi-Wan into agreeing to train Anakin with his dying breath.
00:16:33
Speaker
ah that As a theory that, that is, I've actually, what, I've actually got to think about that. That's actually interesting. Well, I mean, and this is all just staging. It's not... well But because Qui-Gon's in the theory, I do have something that could like contribute to that, but let you go first.
00:16:56
Speaker
Well, so... It's not an uncommon gesture you know to to reach up the way Qui-Gon did towards Obi-Wan as he was dying, but we have been trained as an audience since 1977 that even though the mind trick is a purely mental thing, that...
00:17:21
Speaker
you know It's accompanied by the little two-finger hand wave. So much so that in The Phantom Menace, when Qui-Gon tries it on Watto, Watto recognizes what it is. you know Why are you waving your hand around like that? Are you some kind of Jedi?
00:17:39
Speaker
And as he's dying, he's holding his hand towards Obi-Wan's face in that two-finger gesture.
00:17:50
Speaker
In a way that does look like someone reaching out to someone while they're passing. But just to say that Qui-Gon is kind of a... on on Sort of a unusual Jedi.
00:18:06
Speaker
Unhinged. He does try to use the mind trick and in and uses the Force to cheat at a and a game. its da It's possible that you're correct that he...
00:18:20
Speaker
And training, getting Anakin trained is, like Betsy said, his sole focus from the moment he meets this kid. And defying the council.
00:18:34
Speaker
So, I mean, and yeah I'm just saying, to to borrow a line from a to borrow a line from a certain weekly talk show that i have that has fallen out of many's favor,
00:18:50
Speaker
I don't know it for a fact, but I know it to be true. But I would say that the idea is like it would be easier to convince Obi-Wan in the point of emotional weakness, who also said that I'm ready to be a knight to convince him to get a Padawan.
00:19:11
Speaker
Mm hmm. There's, from a from several points of view, this seems likely, but without we're not saying it's true.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yep. And they're never going to say that's exactly what happened.
00:19:30
Speaker
Unless unless we ah we interrogate George Lucas himself. Good luck with that.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yep, he'll pull out his his silver lightsaber and cut us down no he'll just pull out a thermal detonator no i'm sorry it's not a silver lightsaber it's a flannel lightsaber or you know he'll just call security and have us escorted off of skywalker ranch but that too but the flannel lightsaber is more fun it is more fun because it goes to plaid lord do you have something to say about this moment um
00:20:08
Speaker
not Not really. i think that one thing is that ah looking at this various ah look at the various elements of character analysis here, I find that some have very difficult I have a great difficulty and analyzing characters within this sort of context because I'm used to character analysis where...
00:20:30
Speaker
We're operating with video games. We're operating with silent protagonists. We're operating where there is very little to analyze. I can look at every single piece of information all at once, and then I can put it, I can connect the pieces and put together a character that is implied to exist, but almost doesn't.
00:20:50
Speaker
This is the exact opposite. This is 5,000 different information points. And I can't put those together effectively. That is not my skill set.
00:21:01
Speaker
ah but the Again, that's not a problem. That's a different understanding of like narrative. Narratives are not all one-to-one. Yeah, it's like, I am good at filling in gaps where there is almost no information.
00:21:17
Speaker
ah Whenever there is infinite information, my skill set is ah very antithetical
Exploring Anakin's Emotional Journey
00:21:24
Speaker
to this. So I'm not actually going to have much to say about most of this character analysis. But I will say that that's...
00:21:31
Speaker
As people that have been experiencing the these episodes for about like a decade now, yeah, we're still talking about these because yeah we don't have a conclusive answer because there is, even for a lot of information, there's a lot of information to try and share.
00:21:52
Speaker
oh yeah yeah Oh, yeah. And don't worry, I got you in the character analysis because like that is my shit, in case it wasn't obvious. Oh, yeah yeah. I will sit here and analyze characters all day long. And I have a little bit of that too, because in regards to... This is the first appearance in canon of a Jedi Force ghost.
00:22:14
Speaker
Obi-Wan is literally talking to his dead master through an apparition in the Force. And his fearful reaction... open it key He ignites his lightsaber at a ghost.
00:22:31
Speaker
is very fitting because it's like how a real person would experience something supernatural because this is the supernatural to him.
00:22:42
Speaker
And this ghost not only is in the form of his former master, but is also bringing a cryptic, near dire warning of the future.
00:22:56
Speaker
And he's trying to keep it cool and together because it is familiar face, but...
00:23:04
Speaker
it's He's never seen, and this is unknown to the Jedi.
00:23:12
Speaker
There's no, at this point, in the in the canon can and currently, that the Jedi can maintain and manifest their spirits after death. So he's experiencing something brand new.
00:23:28
Speaker
But he is trusting it because it is his master and conveying something that only his master would know this idea that Anakin is the chosen one and also conveying what this place is.
00:23:45
Speaker
There's properties. It functions as a magnet and an amplifier is both allowing for such an interaction, but also has profoundly dangerous consequences because Anakin is strong in the Force, and if he isn't the quote-unquote chosen one, him being here is incredibly dangerous.
00:24:12
Speaker
And it does fit back in with our description of the Force by Obi-Wan to Luke in A New Hope.
00:24:22
Speaker
What is it? Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon, but a more civilized age.
00:24:39
Speaker
For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire.
00:24:54
Speaker
How did my father die?
00:24:58
Speaker
a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.
00:25:09
Speaker
He betrayed and murdered your father.
00:25:14
Speaker
Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force. The Force? The Force is what gives the Jedi his power.
00:25:27
Speaker
It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.
00:25:37
Speaker
when
00:25:43
Speaker
That simple sequence of words is the basis of the Star Wars fandom's understanding of the Force, and it's been consistent throughout the
00:25:55
Speaker
This place where they are currently is a conduit through which all the force which flows through all things, an energy field, goes for everything.
00:26:08
Speaker
And it connects to all of the things that we're understanding from the previous arc with the Nightsisters to this place that the force is so much than than just lifting rocks and and tricking minds.
00:26:28
Speaker
It's everything.
00:26:33
Speaker
And this Chosen One prophecy and its understanding is shaped by singular group, at this point the Jedi.
00:26:46
Speaker
But it's just adding... This is just stuff to keep in mind as you watch this whole arc. Because it's so important like recognize that none of it is contradicting with each other. It's all compounding on each other.
00:27:05
Speaker
Again, it's like poetry instead of they rhyme. Yes. Never get rid of that quote. Never get rid of that little soundbite. We need it for everything. It's required.
00:27:17
Speaker
For once, meaning without saying that we i mean that a quote go. with it's ah it's not a It's not a gag. it's It's important.
00:27:31
Speaker
ah Yes. And then we move on to Anakin getting a little mind fracked. understatement, like serious understatement.
00:27:45
Speaker
Wake up, my son. I must tell you a secret. Who's there? Who's there, I said? It is me, Annie. Your mother.
00:27:58
Speaker
What kind of black arts is this? You're dead. Nothing ever really dies, my son. I have a secret to tell you.
00:28:12
Speaker
Everything you have done, everything you have learned has led you here. Whatever you are, my mother is... is dead. And you blame yourself.
00:28:24
Speaker
Your Jedi training has served you well, Annie. But you are more than a Jedi. Tell me, where is your pain? So I might take it away.
00:28:37
Speaker
I was... too late to save you. failed as a Jedi and I failed you. How so? I tasted only vengeance when I slaughtered so many to avenge your death.
00:28:51
Speaker
It is time you realize that your guilt does not define you, my son. You defined your guilt. The only love I feel in my heart is haunted by what would happen should I let go.
00:29:04
Speaker
Then it is not love. It is a prison. But I have a wife. You've met her. She's everything to me. She's not your destiny.
00:29:15
Speaker
But I love her. No! She is a poisoner. What are you? Your fate!
00:29:29
Speaker
Whoa. bless Bless you. Thank you. But whoa, that's a That's a spicy meatball there.
00:29:40
Speaker
Just, you know, picture me over here screaming, crying, crowing up, etc. Because, like, oh my fucking Christ, can someone just invent, like, GFFA therapy already? Like, I have no clue how to even begin to articulate all my thoughts on this scene, so just get ready for some extra raggedy word vomit, because I have thoughts!
00:30:01
Speaker
I don't think we can invent ven ah ah therapy in a galaxy far, far away yet. That's true, because then there would have no Star War. Yep, then the stories would end and we would all be sad.
00:30:12
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But anyway. our so Our entertainment is predicated upon generational trauma. Yes, yes it is. It's true. I mean, it goes back to the Greeks.
00:30:24
Speaker
Anaphis Rex, all that stuff. Yeah.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, but anyway, okay. Thoughts. So, first, Annie sees what may or may not be his mom for the first time since she died in his arms, and his first reaction is anger, which I think is, like, super telling.
00:30:44
Speaker
It's like, yeah, he's wary because of weird four shenanigans and who knows what else, valid, but, like, Come on, guys, you know there's so much more to it than that. like Usually uses anger to hide his fear, and like do not get me started on the whole hero with no fear thing and how that's definitely a super healthy mantle for a barely 20-year-old kid to carry. It's fine.
00:31:01
Speaker
But when faced with the business of his mom, the thing he's really trying to mask is shame. like Whether or not he feels justified in slaughtering the Tuscans, none of that really holds up when he's looking at woman he swears he avenged in the eye because he knows it's the last thing she would have ever wanted for him.
00:31:15
Speaker
He can't really experience her disappointment because, you know, she's dead. But he can still feel it, and he knows it's a weight he'll never be free of because she's not there for him to ask for forgiveness. And speaking of feeling justified, Annie's whole self-justification for massacring a whole village was, I'm doing this to avenge my mom! But then when faced even with a facsimile of her ghost, he has to face the fact that none of his actions that night were for her because they were all for him.
00:31:41
Speaker
like It was his violence committed the name of his pain and his grief for no one's benefit but his own because the blind rage was easier to bear than the pain of loss. He talks about regretting his actions, but I'm not so sure he does. Honestly, I think what he really regrets is disappointing the people he loves because just like Obi-Wan, Anik's greatest fears are rejection and abandonment.
00:32:01
Speaker
Gee, if only they would just fucking talk to each other. And he's just terrified that everyone will leave him. Even ghosts. And then Shmi, who is actually the son, makes an extremely important and exciting point.
00:32:15
Speaker
It is time you realize that your guilt does not define you, my son. You define your guilt. And I did not expect this level of insight from a fucking children's cartoon about space wizards, but here we are. Because like I cannot begin to explain how important that is.
00:32:28
Speaker
And I don't just mean in the context of Anakin and the show. I mean just in general in real life. But I'm going to use Anakin as my example here. Because this is a show we're talking about. And also I'm not any kind of mental health professional. So I can't actually speak to that kind of thing outside of anecdotal experiences. So we're just going to chat with you here.
00:32:42
Speaker
And we are not sponsored by anyone. But ah therapy. as in Just yeah try and get that if you can. Everyone should try it. If you can. Yep.
00:32:55
Speaker
No, seriously, for real. But yeah, like this is just such an important statement and if Anakin had been able to internalize it, then again, there wouldn't be a Star War because Anakin has carried all his guilt and shame with him his whole life and just has never let go of any of it because he's never taken the time to process any of it.
00:33:11
Speaker
And honestly, I'm not sure if he even knows how. Like, guilt serves a purpose. It's how Anakin knows his actions were out of line, but he stored that guilt up and turned it into shame because those two things are very different.
00:33:22
Speaker
Guilt is like, I did bad, where shame is like, I am bad. And one of those statements is a hell of a lot more damaging. Like, Anakin just defines himself by all the ways that he is, quote unquote, bad. All the ways he finds himself lacking, all the ways he knows he could be and believes he needs to be better, despite not knowing what better actually means.
00:33:41
Speaker
He just relies on this black and white thinking and fixates on the negative and discounts all of his positive qualities. And he can't let go of this distorted view he has of himself and his place in life. He defines his whole being with the things he lacks rather than things he has. So he always finds himself wanting.
00:33:56
Speaker
And he lives in fear that others will see that truth of him if he can't find a way to be, not do, be better. But the thing is, he can't be better because no one can be better than themselves. Like, there is no version better version of him. There's just him.
00:34:10
Speaker
And like that's not to say that he can't grow and improve and do things to better himself. It's more like what I'm saying is that there's not some completely different version of him hiding somewhere that's all around better than him because this is the only him he has.
00:34:22
Speaker
And that's where the second half of Shui's statement comes in because he has all this guilt and shame and all these painful memories and uncomfortable emotions he's struggling with. But he doesn't just have to take them as they are. he has the power to decide what to do with all of that, to make it mean something and decide for himself what that meaning will be.
00:34:38
Speaker
Which me is trying to tell him is that he has all this guilt, yeah, but it's up to him to do something about it, or even with it. Because it's on him to learn from his actions and grow as a person and do better. Not be better, do better.
00:34:51
Speaker
Because genuinely, what good does letting all his guilt fester do otherwise? What purpose does it serve? Even if any of the Tuscans were still alive, do you think they'd want his guilt? Would Shmi want it? Would anyone? Just like the act of vengeance itself, any guilt and shame he carries is about him, not the ones he hurt.
00:35:06
Speaker
And torturing himself is not any form of penance. If he would only just get out of his own head for five seconds and just listen for once and actually hear what's being said to him, maybe he would finally understand that the only way to go is forward, and he gets to decide where he goes and how he gets there and what he brings with him.
00:35:23
Speaker
He can't undo what's already been done, but he can make it mean something. He just has to be the one to take the steps to create that meaning. And more thoughts, because can I say things about the love part, or have I talked too much already?
00:35:35
Speaker
You know Don't care. going keep talking. Like, I just also find it super telling that- Let her cook! Yeah. Like, I find it super telling that Anakin looks at love not as something he has, but as something he's afraid to lose.
00:35:48
Speaker
Like, as with everything else, he's just fixated on the negative, on the loss that hasn't happened, but he's nonetheless terrified could happen. To me, it seems that he looks at love as almost like a physical possession, like something he could have and something that could be taken away from him rather than something he shares with another being. know And it makes me wonder to what extent he actually like feels love. like How much time does he actually spend just letting himself experience love, feeling loved, loving somebody, etc.? And how much time does he spend trying to jealously safeguard that love?
00:36:17
Speaker
And of what he guards, how much of it is genuinely... love, like, the genuine emotion, and how much of it is the idea of love and what it represents. Like, Notchmi has a pretty compelling point about what he's talking about not being loved but a prison because of how his fear of loss keeps him trapped. Like, I think we're all pretty well aware there's nothing remotely healthy about Annie Dahl's relationship, but even putting that aside, like, I have questions about how much Annie loves her and how much he just loves the idea of her and, like, what she represents.
00:36:46
Speaker
I also wonder how much of jumping into marriage has something to do with the idea of till death do us part and his hope That this way she wouldn't abandon him because she vowed she wouldn't. also think it's pretty telling. Especially in the middle of a war.
00:36:57
Speaker
Yeah. I also think it's pretty telling that when Sunshmi says, yeah, that's not actually love. His immediate reaction and his only rebuttal is, but I have a wife. As if that's like, you know, an actual argument.
00:37:10
Speaker
Which is not. My wife.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, he's... Anakin is not a healthy boy. No, no, he is not. like ah ah you're Like, back in when I wanted to, like, do a YouTube but to prank, I actually had a prank for it. It's like, try and pick up a chick with Anakin lines.
00:37:35
Speaker
All of the Anakin lines. that no. So do you start off with, are you an angel? Yes. You have to start off with the initial and try and see if how far you go.
00:37:49
Speaker
Okay, so Nick, you're in my very soul haunting me. Nick, um and we like at what point do you slaughter people to get her hot and bothered?
00:38:03
Speaker
That's after that you you're in my very soul fomenting me. Okay. Yes. it it did it has to go for the full It has to go for the full thing. ah like they wouldn't that that That's the point of the prank. It'd be like, oh, it it doesn't work.
00:38:19
Speaker
So what you're saying, Nick, is you would be willing to slaughter people to impress a girl? No. I'd be willing to convince people to do that for a YouTube video.
00:38:32
Speaker
A likely story. Sure, Nick. Sure. Well, let's read this next clip. We're going to take a little peek behind the scenes and listen to ah Sam Whitworth, the voice actor for The Sun.
00:38:49
Speaker
and Matt Lanter performs this really very emotional scene where he sees Anakin is talking to his dead mother.
Behind-the-Scenes Insights
00:38:57
Speaker
Shmi. Shmi. And he says to her, I have a wife and I want you to meet her.
00:39:03
Speaker
Matt performed it very emotionally and really very, very well. And we were about to move on and I'm still the new guy in the room. So I raised my hand and Dave's like, and we're about to move on. And I said, um got to do that again. And he goes, whoa what's the new guy saying now?
00:39:19
Speaker
Why? And I said, because Padme already met Shmi. yeah They had dinner together. They had food. And I saw Dave kind of take his hat.
00:39:33
Speaker
yeah and And I just remember looking over at Ashley, and Ashley goes, I've never seen someone out geek Dave Filoni before. And I think yeah that was when Dave was thinking, maybe we keep this guy around a little bit. I think that's my theory.
00:39:49
Speaker
just talk about how Sam Witwer um actually Filoni here because you know with the original like at all yeah because Annie was gonna be all like mom I wish you could have met Padme because I love her and of course Sam comes in raising his hand like Dave love what you have there great stuff but Shmi kind of did meet Padme it was way back in the Phantom Menace they all had dinner together you know it happened ah just I just think it's hilarious that you know you get the actor over here actuallying the writer.
00:40:22
Speaker
Not just the writer. He is the heir apparent in terms of the Star Wars lore. Dave Filoni. yeah yeah It's an actor who who did the Starkiller voice and also did Emperor Palpatine in the Force and Least games.
00:40:41
Speaker
But it was like was never meant to be a big piece of the future. that The actor who plays Palpatine in The Force Unleashed and some episodes of Clone Wars, or as Sam Witwer put it, when he met Ian McDiarmid and McDiarmid asked who he was, he said, I'm you when they can't afford you.
00:41:04
Speaker
But also played Starkiller Gail Ann Merrick, the... Vader's Secret Apprentice. yeah like And we'll be hearing a lot of him in the future.
00:41:19
Speaker
Now, what what I really would love to see is just ah a a conversation just sitting around a bar or sitting around some pizza or something between Sam Witwer, Dave Filoni, Pablo Hidalgo,
00:41:42
Speaker
And Alex Damon. Oh my gosh, not going to take my money. and i' Moderated by Alex Damon. yeah Yeah. He would just have the best time. Wait, no.
00:41:55
Speaker
Steph has to be. His wife has to be there. Well, obviously. Who do you think is running everything? Molly's keeping them all in line. Molly has to have some questions of her own, but they have to be like wild questions.
00:42:10
Speaker
Molly's questions would all be for Filoni about Grogu. Are those not important questions? like I didn't say they're not. I just said that that's where Molly's focus would be in this particular case.
00:42:24
Speaker
And we mean this with the utmost respect, Molly. Yes, we love you, Molly, and we love Grogu, too. And we we love watching you just dote over Grogu. And um but we we know like we we we could use, if you ever need a need to be part of another podcast, there is one.
00:42:45
Speaker
But so we're it's time for a little more. Now you want to on but
00:42:55
Speaker
And now it's Ahsoka's turn. oh my boy! Time to traumatize the child soldier that leads other child soldiers under the guidance of two dysfunctional wizard dads.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yippee! I had a joke going on, but you can see where my joke went and how i how i my dyslexia manifests.
00:43:20
Speaker
Yep, so... Here we go. I'm not joking. That's how it happened.
00:43:28
Speaker
Are you happy, child?
00:43:36
Speaker
Your master, does he treat you well?
Ahsoka's Perspective and Growth
00:43:43
Speaker
What concern of it is yours? I am new future. Your potential. This is a trick. There is a wildness to you, young one.
00:43:55
Speaker
Seeds of the dark side planted by your master. Do you feel No. He is like no other Jedi. Passionate, impulsive, but I trust him with my life.
00:44:07
Speaker
There are many contradictions in you. And in him.
00:44:14
Speaker
Be warned. You may never see your future if you remain his student. Leave this planet.
00:44:23
Speaker
Ahsoka?
00:44:26
Speaker
I had a vision. I think Anakin may be in trouble.
00:44:33
Speaker
So it's a day ending and why? Right. But no now I just have to yell about my daughter getting visited by the ghost of Ahsoka's future because I am not okay. like ahziz it it's but it's very It's very Christmas Carol and like the worst case Christmas Carol. so
00:44:52
Speaker
And yeah, this going to really fucking hard to talk about without delving into spoiler territory because holy shit is there a lot to unpack that would require going there but I'm going to do my best and one of you can just, i don't know,
00:45:04
Speaker
bleep me or something if I say something too spoilery since I'm too far away for anyone to throw something at me. He's like, don't have Lord will remember most things.
00:45:14
Speaker
Yeah. We can only hope. But no, like, for starters, I just, I definitely have things to say about Ahsoka's vehement denial of Anakin planting darkness in her. Because, like, for one, that is just so quintessentially disaster lineage of her.
00:45:29
Speaker
Because their whole lineage is just like that. And I'm not just talking about them being unapologetically ride or die for each other. Like, they all know each other so well. And a lot of ways see each other and sometimes through each other, even to the things each of them would rather hide. Yeah.
00:45:43
Speaker
And then they all willingly choose to intentionally blind themselves to the parts of the others that they would rather not see. All three of them. Hank, Vigon, Antiguo, and Yoda. Because, you know, let's be real, they're part of this too. Like, they're all well aware of the maladaptive behaviors and negative coping skills the others engage in, including Obi-Wan, who is basically the this-is-fine dog in human form.
00:46:02
Speaker
They see it, hear it, feel it, even agonize over it, but instead of just, you know, talking to each other about their struggles, they just look away from it, for what they'd rather not acknowledge. Like, the emotional intelligence is clearer clearly there.
00:46:16
Speaker
Even an Anakin, I would argue, surprisingly. But we just rarely ever see it because they each go out of their way to stifle it in themselves whenever possible. Like, all of them just rely so heavily on the crutch of, we don't acknowledge it, if we don't talk about it, then it doesn't exist.
00:46:30
Speaker
Just for each other as much as for themselves, despite very much knowing otherwise. And I think Ahsoka's words just really reflect all that. For example, I think there's a level of intentionality to her word choice, calling him like passionate and impulsive, because despite acknowledging those qualities, it's false.
00:46:46
Speaker
Because the words she chose... Because the words she chose just like they don't have inherently negative connotations. But then also, despite naming those things out loud, to Ahsoka, the heart of the matter is just the trust and any shortcomings Anakin might have mean nothing compared to just how deep that trust in him runs.
00:47:03
Speaker
You very literally can see the fire in her eyes, because you know the animators put a reflection of physical campfire in her eyes just to give us that visual metaphor something they would have had to go out of their way to do as she asserts her the overwhelming importance of those interpersonal bonds of trust and as if we need any further proof that she's Anakin's Padawan And I also have a billion things to say about you may never see your future if you remain his student, but I'm going to table those for now because spoiler. Except that I find it super interesting how she frames it specifically as you may never see your future, as if staying with Anakin means Ahsoka has no future at all, period. And I just find that a very interesting choice of words and what meaning future Ahsoka was possibly trying to convey something, something, foreshadowing, something, something, poetry.
00:47:47
Speaker
Again, it's like poetry. It's sort of, they rhyme. Yay! There it is.
00:47:55
Speaker
But yeah, seeing seeing future Ahsoka was an incredibly surprising bit. like and like I didn't want to bring in my past. like I did watch this when it came out, and it blew my mind.
00:48:10
Speaker
And again, it came out like late at night on Cartoon Network, where I lived. So like I was staying up late at night, and and I just got bombarded by all this information right before midnight.
00:48:26
Speaker
And I was like...
00:48:30
Speaker
I didn't sleep that night. I was like, what? What? They sure were airing the show at some weird times back then, huh?
00:48:41
Speaker
They were. Because like they knew it was like it's too intense for... Tense for prime time. But we can't put it on Saturday morning. So... Dead of midnight.
00:48:57
Speaker
Relegated to adult swim hours. I will say that it's interesting Obi-Wan and Anakin had visions of people who were important to them.
00:49:09
Speaker
Whereas Ahsoka... I don't know this is... Specifically past. Specifically dead. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting how Ahsoka doesn't have an equivalent to that. This might just simply be because she wasn't part of the movies, so she didn't have exactly the most expansive backstory to draw from.
00:49:29
Speaker
But I wonder if this is an element where ah these sort of outside production elements enhance the narrative, or if the writers might have actually wanted Ahsoka to encounter someone from her past, but they just don't have...
00:49:46
Speaker
any one of those available or because they see so young she'd be worried about her future yeah that's what i was gonna say i think of what you said lauren that it's probably the former and that like anakin and obi-wan because of their experiences they have a lot of things that happened in the past that they agonize over i mean a huge part of their characters is that they have a whole bunch of shit that they refuse to let go of While Ahsoka... Literally people dying dying in their arms.
00:50:15
Speaker
Yeah, multiple times in some cases. But like at this point, Ahsoka doesn't have that. So her focus really is on what's going to happen for her next. And I think that also kind of tracks with the fact that at this point in the story, you know the Clone Wars are going on.
00:50:30
Speaker
So you there's no time to like really for her to go dwell in the past because she's constantly thinking of You know, the next day, the next move, the next battle, the next thing she has to do. And she's trying to again oh go through the motions of her training and accomplish all the things she's supposed to accomplish while also fighting in a goddamn war.
00:50:47
Speaker
And again, think about this location. It is a magnetic and an amplifier. It's likely amplifying the feelings of both of her wizard dads.
00:51:00
Speaker
there their pain, their struggles. She can't relate to them in the point of like they have lost something, but that's going to weigh on her and that's going to affect her future.
00:51:16
Speaker
Yeah, not to mention when it comes to a loss, like think of how many people she's seen die right in front of her over and over again as far as like, you know, the clones and random civilians.
00:51:26
Speaker
So for me, rather than her like dwelling on things that she couldn't change and things that happened in the past, it's more like, okay, well, what do I do next to try to make things better or keep things from happening? How do I survive moment to moment to moment?
00:51:39
Speaker
Actually, have one final beat and we can continue. you The idea is the fact that Anakin and Obi-Wan to a degree were Jedi Knights, like in the traditional sense, not warriors, not generals.
Themes of Love, Legacy, and Balance
00:51:56
Speaker
see She's only known her Jedi experience as a commander of troops in a war. She wonders what her future will be.
00:52:10
Speaker
Is that the future of the Jedi? Warfighters.
00:52:18
Speaker
I mean, definitely. And next up, we have a clip of the father with Obi-Wan.
00:52:31
Speaker
You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe. Yeah, I don't have anything to say. Just know that I'm gesturing furiously in the direction of one Obi-Wan Infinite Sadness Kenobi. Hmm.
00:52:50
Speaker
That's it. That's my reply. Yep. yeah I do have quick remarks. I do have quick remarks. ah The father as a whole, and piggybacking on the statements we've been talking about Anakin, he's a reflection of Anakin.
00:53:09
Speaker
Shouldering and heavy burden upon themselves it' to an unhealthy degree, while also stifling Those they care for.
00:53:22
Speaker
i mean, these force wielders, for lack of a better term, force gods, are struggling with a very human issue of containing themselves, but also trying to not damage everything else around them.
00:53:42
Speaker
It's the ideas of legacy, of love, control, and freedom. These are direct mirrors to Anakin's journey. And ah it's impossible to ignore that, but I do feel like it does need to be put into perspective as there are multiple views and perspectives on this arc.
00:54:08
Speaker
Some I agree with, some I heavily disagree with, but... it The fact that the father is such a direct mirror to Anakin's struggle is important to keep in mind when you're thinking thematically of the arc.
00:54:26
Speaker
Yep. And then he follows it up with this. A family in balance, the light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction replaced by creation.
00:54:40
Speaker
Then why reveal yourselves to us? There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it.
00:54:55
Speaker
When news reached me that the Chosen One had been found, I needed to see for myself. The Chosen One is a myth.
00:55:08
Speaker
Okay, well there it is out loud and plain basic because apparently the Jedi Order, contemporaneously anyway, don't have a single dictionary in their archives because none of them know what the word balance actually means in practice.
00:55:21
Speaker
I'm not saying they don't get it in theory because I think they do. Pro-Jedi, Jedi-apologist, whatever term the fandom is using these days, you don't come for me, I have a point. Because they as an order just talk endlessly about balance in the force and in oneself. And there's a lot they do right in that, I think.
00:55:38
Speaker
Like meditation, for example, it can be a great thing and a good mindfulness skill, letting those thoughts and emotions go and saying ground on the premise. in the present are extremely important skills and things that honestly everyone on the planet, including me, could work on. Like the Jedi clearly understand this mindfulness aspect of emotion regulation and I guess force power regulation because this is Star Wars. so But there's also just a lot more to it than mindfulness alone because before you let some of those things go, particularly the things that are really heavy, you also need to create a space to just process those things.
00:56:10
Speaker
Like letting the strong emotions go works great in the moment, but it doesn't get at the underlying cause of why those emotions are there. So any balance or peace or whatever you want to call it will only ever be temporary.
00:56:20
Speaker
To me, this is where Jedi practices fall short because they don't allow that space for processing. They actually actively discourage, in fact, at least based on everything we've seen the actual text of the Star Wars. And like, yes, I know characters will verbally assert that working through things is fine, but I genuinely cannot recall a single time in the prequel era when I saw actual evidence of any characters actually doing that.
00:56:41
Speaker
And if it's not in the text, then we can't really say it happened outside of Fanon. It's just like, I swear every time someone tells Anakin he needs to release his emotions into the forest or... let go of his fear and anger or something.
00:56:52
Speaker
I'm possessed by the violent urge to blue skidoo into the screen or whatever and chug a Marshall Linehan-shaped boulder at the head of whoever's saying that and tell him to find a hill and start rolling because it'd be just as effective.
00:57:03
Speaker
No, I don't care that they don't have Sisyphus or animal behavioral therapy in space. The point stands. because they I have to say the same things where they say like, oh, other Jedi were able to do it.
00:57:16
Speaker
Text, please. ah Note that. but Where? I thought we all learned in school that you have to back things up with evidence. No.
00:57:28
Speaker
thats that That has gone out the window in modern society. ah adversely Especially in media literacy, but in general society. in general It's like...
00:57:40
Speaker
um Yeah, ah how many Jedi have actually like handled the their issues in a constructive way? Don't worry about it.
00:57:52
Speaker
could you Give me a page number. Don't worry about it. What's the ah amorphous blobby Jedi in the High Republic? Because he he kind of does it.
00:58:08
Speaker
yeah Emphasis on kind of. Yeah, kinda. ah well That's the best we have. ah he He struggles. to he struggles that's That's the point of his whole arc.
00:58:21
Speaker
But he still does it. He still struggles, yeah. buts like And we're just gonna wipe that from the Wreckers and pretend that never happened in Jedi history. Don't worry about it.
00:58:34
Speaker
So the father has now explained that he and his children are, yeah, we're the force. Deal with it. We're the force. And challenges Anakin to be tested to prove that he's the chosen one.
00:58:47
Speaker
Yep, the father's just like, okay, I'll make you a deal. Pass this one super simple test and you and your friends can go home. It'll be super easy, barely an inconvenience, I promise. And he's like, ah A fun reference there.
00:58:59
Speaker
yeah yeah Anakin's like, okay, um so what's this test exactly? The father is just nonchalantly like, oh, it's an old classic. Just pick which one of your friends you want to save and which one you'll let die. That old chestnut.
00:59:12
Speaker
And this test is definitely just a binary choice I presented and not at all a trick to get you to do chosen one shenanigans to save them both. Ignore what I said about you leaving with your flin friends, plural, because I'm totally going to have my kids kill one. hmm.
00:59:24
Speaker
Yep, and so with the son and daughter holding Ahsoka and Obi-Wan and threatening to kill them, Anakin taps into the raw force hour force power that is the planet and brings them to their knees and the father wants him now to stay and take his place but Anakin and the others leave.
00:59:45
Speaker
ah yeah There's a lot to talk about this quote-unquote test.
00:59:52
Speaker
But I'm going to let Betsy go first. Thank you. But can we all agree that this scene is gorgeous and awesome?
01:00:02
Speaker
Yes, we can. This true. Yes. Just like, I would love to see another big story. The visuals. The lighting. The music. Don't get me started on Kevin Kiner's score.
01:00:16
Speaker
and That's what I'm saying. like Don't get me started on any of like the pure like aesthetics of this. This is pure cinema. It is deserves to be on the big screen. It's incredible.
01:00:28
Speaker
But there's so much more behind it. so Yep, because I really to yell about the framing of the test itself. Like the thing that stands out. yeah Everyone ah prepared prepare your ears because I assume this he is going to yell about it.
01:00:46
Speaker
Sit back and grab your popcorn. Oh, yeah. If you didn't already. But anyway, as I was saying, so the thing that stands out to me the most is the choice to have Obi-Wan picked up by the daughter, the embodiment of light, and then Ahsoka picked up by the sun, the embodiment of darkness.
01:01:02
Speaker
because i mean, if you had to figure out how to split them up in general, then of course Obi would go with the daughter. He's Obi-Wan, more or less the embodiment of light. Just pretend you don't see those shadows over there. So by default, Ahsoka would go with the sun.
01:01:13
Speaker
However, I think there's much more to it than that. Ahsoka on the dark end of the spectrum, I think gives further credence to future Ahsoka's warning about Anakin planting seeds of darkness. Like, maybe this is visual proof that present Ahsoka was too quick to discount the warning and ignore what she probably knew to be true anyway and just didn't want to admit.
01:01:31
Speaker
And some would also have a lot more to latch onto in Ahsoka just by virtue of her being a Padawan and not having the same ability to bury every single uncomfortable thought and feeling behind shields thicker than the Hoover fucking dam. Looking at you Obi-Wan.
01:01:43
Speaker
But then on the other hand, maybe the decision in-universe, as in, you know, showrunners aside, has nothing to do with who Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are themselves, but rather how Anakin sees them. Obi-Wan has gone out of his way to make himself appear as the paragon of Jedi virtue and excellence, so to Anakin, that's who Obi-Wan is.
01:02:00
Speaker
ah master beyond falter approach, because Obi-Wan never dropped that facade. Anakin would never know the length Obi-Wan went to just to create that ideal presentation of himself, or how much he destroyed his very being to maintain it.
01:02:12
Speaker
It's fine. But meanwhile, Anakin looks at Ahsoka and worries about darkness in her, not because of Ahsoka herself, but because he fears the same thing that future Ahsoka warned about. that maybe he's the corrupting influence, slowly poisoning her over a time by infecting her with the darkness he carries in himself.
01:02:28
Speaker
also find it super interesting how this test and the balance it was supposed to teach Anakin to create hinge on the very thing that is so often and framed as anathema to all aspects of the Force.
01:02:39
Speaker
Attachment. The only way the Father's test would work is if Anakin was willing to do whatever it took to save the people he loved, including telling a literal Force deity to fuck off. Mortis, the planet buffed his skills, sure, but the strength Anakin found to subdue the son and the daughter came directly from his attachment and his unwillingness to let either of the people he cared about go.
01:03:02
Speaker
And that's why the test is so multi-layered and often debated. I agree with 90% of like what you're saying. But the main thing is like if we go into the idea that That the ah the father is meant to be a reflection of Anakin.
01:03:24
Speaker
So he's looking for an Anakin. Someone who is, unfortunately, chained to his attachments.
01:03:36
Speaker
To keep them here.
01:03:40
Speaker
Chained by guilt. Chained by shame. And can't accept either one, but also keeps the darker parts of both light and dark trapped in a place beyond time and space.
01:03:59
Speaker
Well, and the father had that clip that we played was him talking about, you know, have... could you know Could you love someone so much? Can you imagine the pain it takes to have so much love for your children and realize what they could do?
01:04:21
Speaker
Makes me wonder, though. Does the father actually reflect Anakin or does the father want Anakin to reflect him? as a yeah i think the father reflects someone else. Or from certain...
01:04:33
Speaker
other perspective i was ah great many you did to also Is this... I'll even play it there. Is this actually happening?
Mortis Arc Impact on Star Wars Lore
01:04:45
Speaker
Or is
01:04:50
Speaker
it happening? Yep, and... Again, we can't... Our answer we have is just episode one, but it is one of the many theories that goes on with this. That's not my theory, even.
01:05:05
Speaker
yeah Spoilers for Lauren. you know Plug your ears, take your headphones off, go la la la la. Oh, yeah. yeah don Definitely don't read the script in that part. but but Pretend you can't read.
01:05:15
Speaker
Right. But I hadn't watched this arc. Lauren can read. ah But I hadn't watched this arc since Ahsoka aired, and when they leave, the terrain of Mortis looks a lot like Paradia, and the Father's Fortress has a bright, shiny thing on top, like what Balin was looking at off in the distance in the final episode of Season 1.
01:05:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, and don't forget the giant statues. Yeah. Well, I mean, that that part was obvious, but yeah it had been so long that I... as you and pointing I would be like, yeah, it's pointing to a very similar structure.
01:05:57
Speaker
I'm just saying, you know, they made it as on the nose as possible in the end. But yeah, now that I rewatched it, you're totally right. Yep. And the first episode... They're definitely, they're definitely like heading towards that. But I did, I'm watching with a, so I've been watching a YouTuber going through the Ahsoka series and like, yeah,
01:06:19
Speaker
They just finish it. It's like, yeah, that that's a saint that's the Father's Fortress. yeah And this first episode of the arc is mainly weirdness and setting up some of the metaphysical and philosophical dives that the other two take.
01:06:37
Speaker
ah Opinions, are y'all?
01:06:42
Speaker
Because this was crazy. I remember watching this... because I remember watching it staying up till late night like and being like, what am I watching?
01:07:02
Speaker
It's laying a lot of groundwork for a lot of stuff, not just the next two episodes. it's like is Even I recognize like this is like...
01:07:14
Speaker
I watched the previous arc. was like, oh, that's really cool. Expanding the force and stuff like that. This is like the most important Star Wars content.
01:07:25
Speaker
And I have to stay up to like 11 p.m. to watch it. Mm-hmm.
01:07:34
Speaker
And the next Saturday morning and forums talking about it.
01:07:42
Speaker
And we're still not entirely surrounded by beans. Mm-hmm.
01:07:49
Speaker
All right. So next up, that then takes us into Altar of Mortis, season three, episode 16. ah Don't worry. We've only been going for an hour just on one 20-something minute episode.
01:08:01
Speaker
Yeah. I'm sorry. The second one. um But the description for Altar of Mortis is there is an attempt to entice Anakin to the dark side. and About that log line, that sounds kind of like attempting to entice a five-year-old into a bouncy house with puppies and cookies.
01:08:23
Speaker
Or, you know, me. Puppies and cookies always works. But since it's the dark side, yeah they the cookies are probably oatmeal raisin, so never mind. Why everyone always hate on oatmeal raisin cookies? You guys need better taste. Or at least you need to start like eating some better oatmeal raisin cookies because they're actually good and I will not take this slander anymore.
01:08:43
Speaker
There is no such thing as better oatmeal raisin cookies. Challenge accepted! See, part of the problem with oatmeal raisin cookies is they masquerade as chocolate chip. And you see it and you're like, ooh, chocolate chip cookie!
01:08:56
Speaker
Oh, oatmeal raisin! So you don't like oatmeal raisin because you feel stupid for eating them because you don't know how to tell the difference between a raisin and a chocolate chip and you blame it on the cookie. Got it.
01:09:08
Speaker
Oh, I've learned. Have you? I've learned. You're still blaming oatmeal raisin because you can't recognize chocolate chips and raisins from each other. and and And they're nasty, too. It's just the trauma. You take that back.
01:09:19
Speaker
It's not that he can't do it anymore. It's just a matter of the trauma of having experienced it so many times growing up. All I'm saying is if you think all oatmeal raisin cookies taste bad, then challenge accepted. I'm just saying, cool capes.
01:09:32
Speaker
I'm pretty sure any of my other vices could have been used to turn me to the dark side. Luckily, i don't have many of those. I am so glad we're not recording in the same room so that the lightning doesn't hit us too with you saying that. Right.
01:09:50
Speaker
ah All right, so we get some more mind frackery. You nuts? Come let's get nuts. Well, apparently we're going to get raisins. Mm-hmm.
01:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, well, you your challenge will not succeed with Stephanie because she will not touch a raisin. Hey, I could put other things in the cookies. What about craisins? Cranberries.
Psychological and Emotional Challenges
01:10:12
Speaker
But nicole lu we we get the more mind frackery as the sun brings out those oatmeal raisin cookies for Anakin. ah But Anakin does have a pretty telling line here. I almost pulled the clip, but we're already clip heavy this episode he had where he's like you must know i will never join the dark side willingly.
01:10:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. About that. uh well buddy for centering is literally it sure is you know we need to find a clip of that so that we don't have to say it out loud every time you were feeling it's honestly more fun when we have like a unique take on it but seriously though sam whitworth's performance in this scene is chef's kiss as the sun goes through his dialogue, and this is even more astounding when you realize that it's his first job on Clone Wars.
01:11:12
Speaker
It's his first voice ah voice work on Clone Wars. But he brings his voices... there after After destroying... Hashtag destroying Dave Filoni.
01:11:25
Speaker
funny but With facts and logic? yes Yeah. But he brings his voices for the sun, for Palpatine, and someone else that we haven't gotten to yet, ah flowing through the performance seamlessly.
01:11:44
Speaker
And then the sun appears in the shuttle and takes Ahsoka to make Anakin stay behind. Which we do it now with another power of the Force. um Bullshit.
01:11:56
Speaker
How did he get in there? Still, though, I can't believe Sam Witwer just invaded Anakin's dream, stole his identity in said dream, and they kidnapped his Padawan. The nerve of some people.
01:12:10
Speaker
And so Ahsoka's in prison. He did a dream invasion and an invasion of the ship. All at once. Ooh. the next time they The next time they reboot Nightmare on Elm Street, Sam Witwer should play Freddy.
01:12:26
Speaker
Oh, I'm on board. I'm on board. I co-sign. Oh, he could do that. he he would He'd kill he'd killed that. i mean Literally, that's the whole point. Yep.
01:12:37
Speaker
So Ahsoka's imprisoned and then air quotes freed and and then just beautiful line. Beautiful line.
01:12:49
Speaker
don't you where she says, don't you see? The chains are the easy part. it what goes It's what goes on in here, the head, that's hard.
01:12:59
Speaker
Sith code. The language. Well, not even Sith code, just in general, you know? I mean, look at everyone in this entire fucking disaster lineage.
01:13:11
Speaker
So many of their problems are things that exist inside their own heads that they can't get past. Who needs physical chains when you keep yourself chained by just everything that you worry and agonize over and fear and don't want to talk about and just can't let go of?
01:13:26
Speaker
But again, that does go back to the actual SIF code in that they created those chains that they break free themselves, free themselves seeking power.
01:13:39
Speaker
Although if the force is supposed to free them, I don't know how well that's working out for everyone involved here. that's what the data That's why the Sith is oppressive, both to themselves as expressive to themselves.
01:13:55
Speaker
They seek to enchain others, but they break free of their perceived chains. Or do they? it is! Yeah! But anyway, so... if they rhyme there it is yeah but anyway so After this, Anakin hits the ground running basically as soon as he gets out of the ship, you know, after they crash it, and immediately goes after Ahsoka in typical Skywalker fashion.
01:14:21
Speaker
But what's Obi-Wan doing in this situation? Hey, any you guys remember on, like, whichever episode I crashed where I talk about hesitation overthinking being Obi-Wan's fatal flaw? I wonder how that's going for him.
01:14:33
Speaker
Like, the name of the episodes is you've been there. You know, just screen wiped Obi-Wan still standing by the crash shuttle for who knows how long after Anakin walked away still saying, I think the father knows what to do.
01:14:44
Speaker
Maybe I should ask him? And then staying in the same spot and asking that same question. But I have refrained myself, and I'm going to give a little bit of my opinion on Obi-Wan.
01:14:56
Speaker
Obi-Wan's patience is entirely a result of his ob one he's connection to Qui-Gon Jinn.
01:15:06
Speaker
Qui-Gon Jinn was the more adventurous Jedi Master. And likely...
01:15:14
Speaker
Did ask if Obi-Wan wanted to go. But he. Obi-Wan is the. Quote unquote quintessential best. Master Jedi Knight. He doesn't.
01:15:24
Speaker
Venture out beyond his bounds.
01:15:28
Speaker
So. This is him being tested. He's. Qui-Gon would go out, like, do something weird, solve this problem, and any quite and then Obi-Wan's like, wow, Master Qui-Gon, how'd he do that? Well, it was not a traditional Jedi way, but I did it.
01:15:52
Speaker
Obi-Wan doesn't understand that.
01:15:56
Speaker
Obi-Wan doesn't understand his master. And that's why he's a bad master to To Anakin to degree.
01:16:09
Speaker
And so the father comments that the son, the dark side, is getting stronger. And we know that in the larger Star Wars narrative that that's true.
01:16:23
Speaker
You've chosen the Dark Side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power. By bringing the Chosen One you've shown me my potential. You've only yourself to blame.
01:16:35
Speaker
Do not do this, son. Do not be become what you should not. Be strong, I implore you. Or else I will be forced to contain you. You look frail, father.
01:16:48
Speaker
I am not dead yet.
01:16:52
Speaker
Well, perhaps I am tired of waiting.
01:17:00
Speaker
Hey, Daryl. Yeah? I'm so glad you still have that poetry audio clip, because I think we need to get it. Again, it's like poetry, so if they rhyme. Like, I know we're not there yet, but you guys said it's okay to reference Revengeance this.
01:17:13
Speaker
of the Sith, so I just need you to imagine me pointing and gesturing furiously at my phone screen, because my Wi-Fi has been shit, so I've been watching it on my phone and yelling, MUSTAPHAR! Because, you know, that's where I'm at with this.
01:17:24
Speaker
Like, I swear, this is just beat for beat. Annie and Obi yelling at each other during Battle of Heroes. All it needs is more lava surfing. But before I even begin unpacking that, I need a minute or two... I need a minute to just, you know, as the kids apparently call it, yap about the father's words.
01:17:41
Speaker
Because... in and of themselves like the diction is everything here like the father is trying to warn the son against straying too far towards the dark but instead of saying something like i'm worried about you or i'm a little concerned he jumps straight into you going dark side is bad and also illegal because i said so and you better stop now or you're grounded but you know humor aside his wording of do not become what you should not feels like a really heavily loaded statement the way the father puts it the issue is it undoing something that could hurt himself, his family, or others in the galaxy. It's the son becoming something he's not supposed to be.
01:18:16
Speaker
Something wrong or bad. Or disappointed in. Yeah, and you know, the emphasis is and this is on something. Because I think it's pretty telling how the father tells him not to become what he should not, rather than who he should not.
01:18:32
Speaker
The father isn't looking at the son as his son, you know, just despite the name. He's looking at him as a representation of an abstract idea, objectifying him in just the very literal sense. It's almost like he doesn't really care who the sun is in this moment because he is an individual.
01:18:46
Speaker
does't Nor wish to guide him into what he should be. Yeah. Or what he wishes him to be. Yeah, he doesn't really care who the sun is because he as an individual doesn't mean anything in the face-to-face role in this ethereal concept of balance.
01:19:02
Speaker
And that's a problem because this episode is like putting them down. yeah And that's probably because this episode clearly shows that the son and the father and the daughter aren't just concepts made tangible.
01:19:13
Speaker
They're complex sapient beings with their own inner lives and their own wants and needs and desires. Like to me, I think a part of the son embracing the dark side is because he did what the father refused to, or it did what the father refused to. It embraced him back.
01:19:28
Speaker
The father talks so much about needing to contain his children to maintain balance, but I wonder if in trying to keep them chained, he upset the balance more than he ever could. like Somewhere along the line, I think his desperate attempts to bring his children to heel turn a quest for balance into a quest for just absolute control.
01:19:44
Speaker
Maybe he should examine his own hubris first before he calls it out in the sun, because I know I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a more vainglorious pursuit in the Star War than trying to tame the Force like your dog whisperer, whatever his name was, trying to housebreak the world's most obnoxious chihuahua.
01:19:58
Speaker
it's it's Again, I do agree with that entirely. it's like Again, but it also puts us into the mirror towards our prospective new chosen one. Him being asked what is he supposed to do about power, about guidance, about balance.
01:20:26
Speaker
There's whole lot to examine there. Mm-hmm. And just like all of that, it honestly just further demonstrates how this scene mirrors Mustafar, because just like the sun, Anakin spent his entire life being told what not to do, or more significantly, what not to be.
01:20:41
Speaker
Everyone in the Order or minus, like, three people held him to impossible standards and set their expectations higher than anyone in his shoes could reasonably hope to achieve, because, you know, he's the chosen one. So those sky-high expectations should be the bare minimum for him to achieve, right?
01:20:56
Speaker
And the father is literally tackled by literally impossible standards. hey So, you know, of course, Anakin always fell short. I mean, how could he not? Just that constant feeling of failure, of not meeting expectations, of disappointing everyone around him, just festering into this massive resentment he could never get rid of until he finally reached a breaking point and lashed out at everything and everyone around him, even the people he loved most.
01:21:21
Speaker
So, you know, screenwripe to Mustafar and he does exactly that to Obi-Wan, lashes out with all the resentment and all the pain and fear and despair tied up with it. And how does Obi-Wan respond? I will do what I must.
01:21:31
Speaker
You can't tell me that's not just like the father's threat to contain his son like he's a problem to be managed or a danger to be removed. Like, I'm not saying that either Anakin or the son were justified in using patricide slash patricide to deal with their feelings.
01:21:44
Speaker
But I am saying that Obi-Wan and the father effectively could have saved everyone a whole lot of suffering if they had just tried offering even a little bit of support. But instead we get the son lightninging his father down his flight of stairs and Obi-Wan could see the foreshadowing up close and personal.
01:21:59
Speaker
What with it, you know, lying a crumpled heat at his feet. And just in case it wasn't clear enough, the son shouts Annie's last line before he gets burned to a crisp. I hate you. It's right there in the text.
01:22:14
Speaker
yep I was going to say that it depends on your interpretation of is this actual or physical, but yes, entirely this is a whole like
01:22:26
Speaker
abstract metaphor or an actual metaphor. There's a whole lot of ways to understand this story. I mean, there's one really obvious way to understand this whole bit. Again, it's like poetry, so if they rhyme...
01:22:42
Speaker
thank you never get rid of that clip because it's so perfect and it's an important clip it's for everything critical so thanks to the daughter obi-wan is given a a magic force blade that can quote control the sun unquote insert joke about strange woman embodying the force distributing swords here yeah Something about like a woman like Excalibur. But my actual thing is like, I just don't like the look of it.
01:23:18
Speaker
from from From a design, I don't like the look of the blade of mortis.
01:23:24
Speaker
It's kind of too square. i mean, i it's force magic, Nick. Deal with it. I know. I just i wanted to wanted to make that known.
01:23:35
Speaker
Square magic. Maybe there's something to be said for it being rather, you know, blunt. Yep, a blunt interest. Metaphor. Blunt instrument, just like Obi-Wan and Yoda try to turn Luke into? I'm just saying. Metaphors! They're everywhere! I know, I know. It's like poetry, so if they rhyme.
01:23:56
Speaker
I'm just saying, like, that in general, I just didn't like the look of it, but I could see it's ah it's metaphorical. So, Darkseid poisoned Ahsoka is all creepy, and she says that the sun is right. to me Very creepy. And she says that the son is right.
01:24:14
Speaker
He'll kill Ahsoka or Anakin will have to. Of course, Snips. Of course I'm proud of you. Now let's get out of here. He's right. Right about everything.
01:24:27
Speaker
You must join him. He only wants what's best for the universe. Hey, what's wrong with you? Always with the criticism, Master.
01:24:38
Speaker
Never really believing in me. Trusting me. Well, I don't need you anymore. Ahsoka. Ahsoka, listen to me.
01:24:49
Speaker
He has done something to you. Snap out of it. This isn't you, Ahsoka. Isn't it? I feel more like myself than I ever have. He asked me to give you a message.
01:25:01
Speaker
He said, if you don't join him, he will kill me. I won't let him. Then you will be forced to kill me.
01:25:16
Speaker
Yep, speaking of Mustafar and mirrors and poetry and all that. Again, it's like poetry, so they rhyme. Yeah. thank you like I know Anakin doesn't see it because he's Anakin, but...
01:25:27
Speaker
everything Ahsoka says, she very much learned by watching him. Very much, I learned it by watching you, Dad! ye Yep, yep. Like, Mark Ahsoka is sitting there giving voice to every single one of Anakin's insecurities, and writing him the script for his showdown with Obi-Wan in about two years, give or take.
01:25:43
Speaker
Right down to the, if you're not with him, you're against me, so now we have to fight to the death! I mean, hell, the way he's hammering away... Is it good with his dad's? Yeah, i mean, how the way she's hammering away at him with just sheer brute force technique, be damned, reminds me of Anakin at his most desperate. Like, they can beat their opponent into some mission with enough brutality. Maybe they can feed back whatever doubts they feel about murdering someone they love at the same time.
01:26:05
Speaker
But also on a letter note, future Sokka may have warned about Anakin planting seeds of the dark side, but Ahsoka's already been infected with the seeds of something far more insidious. Skywalker bullshit! commission group And also the lightsaber technique of hammering away, C1 Skywalker, comma Luke in Jedi, comma Return of Thee. Despite having is definitely heavily using her four lightsaber just hammer away at them.
01:26:33
Speaker
thank you farther at having her two lightar technique c is heavily you using her for four light saber to hammer away
01:26:48
Speaker
And so there is very Luke. And again, and the only way that does turn the tide is Obi-Wan coming in. And then we we have this from the sun. Sister,
01:27:05
Speaker
what a pleasant surprise when you brought a friend. What have you done, brother? Done? I have done what is right.
01:27:17
Speaker
what is wrong, depending on your point of view. No. It is like poetry, if they rhyme. Yeah, I feel like that's probably going to get annoying for people, but it hasn't gotten annoying for me yet because it's too perfect.
01:27:32
Speaker
right Honestly, it's it's the Star War. It's the conflict. yep like like That is a metaphor for... like ah yeah I'll explain it. like They are... The daughter in this and the son have a battle where she is...
01:27:54
Speaker
Exemplifying the ah sort of Jedi... He is attacking without attacking. And he is striking with force. It is the epiphany between light and dark.
01:28:13
Speaker
And it seems weaker But that's because they aren't trying to. One side is trying to defend themselves, but not trying to hurt the other.
01:28:29
Speaker
Also, Daryl, I know you already brought it up, but can I just reiterate how much I love the voice acting for The Sun? Because it's just, like, oh absolutely perfect. Oh, yeah. Like, he talks a big game and does all this grandstanding about his ideals and his strength and blah, blah, blah, blah. But even at his most, you know, quote, unquote, powerful, you can tell he's still uncertain. Like, you can hear it in his syntax, the way he stutters and trips over his words. As he's battling the daughter, he's...
01:28:56
Speaker
And he's using a And to the to the Star Wars... Where's the Rock Nards? Yes, he's using Red Force Lightning.
01:29:07
Speaker
But it's like... She's effortlessly just dissipating it and pushing him back. Because again, he's... It's a battle against ideals, not power.
01:29:20
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, but that's kind of where that uncertainty is. like Again, with Sam Webber's voice acting and how you can hear it in his syntax, it's just the way that he like stutters and trips over his words, almost like he's second-guessing what he's saying or how he's saying it.
01:29:36
Speaker
He's trying so hard to appear confident, but I can't help but read into his speech the sense that maybe he's aware of the hole he's dug for himself, but now that he's in so deep, he sees no way out but to keep digging in hopes that he comes out of the other side because there's no coming back to this. Especially once we get to the end of the episode.
01:29:52
Speaker
yeah And you know, this dovetails right back into parallels with Anakin and Spall because Annie was pretty much dealing with the same thing. Like, he burned every bridge he had worse than he was about to get barbecued himself and saw no way back to the outer shore.
01:30:04
Speaker
Which is also a pretty apt metaphor in this situation now that I think about it. Because there was a way back if only Annie was willing to do the hard work of swimming across that river. Like, there was a way back. There pretty much always is no matter the situation. It's just going to be a far more difficult trek because there's nothing quick or easy about making amends.
01:30:21
Speaker
But as a creative metaphor for your quote-unquote disaster lineage, everything comes to a head. I can't take credit for disaster lineage. Someone else came up with that.
01:30:34
Speaker
But it's true. and It all goes to a head at the end of the episode, and everything goes wrong. a And speaking of of Sam Witwer's voice acting again...
01:30:49
Speaker
This particular clip too, even just the clip, not the whole scene, just the clip. Sam's what is called in, in the business, a working actor. He's not a big name.
01:31:03
Speaker
He does consistent work, but his voiceover work is just insanely layered. You have things like we we were discussing it, um, while we were in a break loading clips up that the way he says sister It's not an accident that it sounds like Vader in Return of the Jedi when he discovers that Leia is Luke's sister. and the the The thing that we brought up is that he like corrected Dave Filoni. It wasn't a like, oh, he's a nerd.
01:31:46
Speaker
No, he knows what he's doing. and He knows the franchise and has a deep love franchise. was about to say, he's passionate about it. He's passionate about his work.
01:31:59
Speaker
And just ah as a little aside, and I know that the actors themselves commented on this, not off Clone Wars, but off of Rebels.
01:32:11
Speaker
One season of Supergirl, Sam Witwer was the big bad villain. yeah sam Sam was Agent Liberty. A recurring character in the early part of that season was Tia Sarkar, who voiced Sabine Wren on Rebels.
01:32:29
Speaker
And she she posted a ah hey picture on Instagram when they were filming an episode together. and you know, spoilers for a several-year-old episode of Supergirl.
01:32:43
Speaker
she's like She's like, today's the day that Darth Maul killed Sabine. A picture of her and Sam together. like They are. get like.
01:33:00
Speaker
Sam is like. Is an amazing actor. And I. I met him. I got an autograph from him. He's a great guy.
01:33:11
Speaker
Yep. um So after dropping Ahsoka to die, the son strikes to kill the father with Obi-Wan's magic block sword.
01:33:22
Speaker
Blocky sword. Blunt It's very blocky. Blunt sword. what But the daughter jumps in the way. Now, the son had actively wanted to kill the father, but he's anguished at killing the daughter.
01:33:37
Speaker
And the dark seems to know that it can't exist without the light. Or doesn't want to. My daughter. What have I done?
01:33:50
Speaker
Do not hate him, father.
01:33:55
Speaker
It is his nature. No. All is lost. The balance has been broken.
01:34:05
Speaker
thought by bringing you here I...
01:34:09
Speaker
But I have destroyed everything.
01:34:14
Speaker
Can you help her? There is no light. The evil has been unleashed. And the dark side shall consume her. You must help her. I cannot undo what is done.
01:34:26
Speaker
There is no hope.
Family Dynamics and Future Hope
01:34:30
Speaker
Yes, there is. There's always hope.
01:34:34
Speaker
ah Yep, all that about the Dark Dog existing without the light, but I also think the son's reaction involves more than just you know the metaphysical lore-related aspects of the Force and the whole need for balance, because as much as he and their family are walking, talking metaphors, they're still a family.
01:34:50
Speaker
so i did really do want to pause you for a second. I do want to talk about this, but again I do feel like there should be maybe a sequel to our discussion of this arc, because there's a whole lot to talk about.
01:35:05
Speaker
But I will let you speak right now. Oh, sorry, I thought you said you wanted to interject something.
01:35:14
Speaker
Oh, my interjection is saying, like, there's a whole lot to speak about about this whole of the entirety of the arc.
01:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, because, you know, just as I was saying, the son is angry with the father and even claimed to hate him, but he never expressed those sentiments towards the daughter. Like, he expressed frustration, yeah, but none of that had to do with her specifically.
01:35:38
Speaker
Rather, he was upset that she, as his sister, sided against him and sided with the father. Like, you can see it in their earlier interactions, how we all but pleased with her to just listen to him. Not even to join him outright, but just to hear him out and try to understand some of his experiences.
01:35:51
Speaker
ah You know, we mentioned earlier, but even when they're throwing down, i also never got the sense that he was trying to do more than just incapacitate her. i mean, he even tells her to stand aside as if he still hopes that she might let him pass of her own free will.
01:36:03
Speaker
His beef was never with her, not really, he only saw her as anything resembling an enemy when he accepted that nothing he said or did would sway her ideals or her sense of filial peity. Then even after that, he still never hated her, not truly, and wanted nothing more than for her to just get out of his way, but unfortunately she went on to do the literal opposite in the most brutal way possible. And you can see it in the sun's facial expressions through this scene, like he starts with this maniacal grin thinking he's won and readying himself to strike the final blow,
01:36:31
Speaker
He has like this level of excitement and almost like a twisted sort of hope. like Once he kills the father, he'll finally escape his chains and for the first time in his existence experience freedom. But then as soon as it registers that the daughter jumped in front and sacrificed herself for the father, and he realizes what he's done. You can just see how his expression crumples.
01:36:48
Speaker
like He drops the blade and he stares down at his hands in disbelief and horror and anger and you know more or less speed running four out of the five stages of grief in about a second. blinded by his anger and his quest for power control, he murdered the one person he never truly wanted to harm.
01:37:04
Speaker
The only person in his life he had left. He already believed that while there was no going back for him, his cause was still righteous and necessary. Then he single-handedly severed the last remaining tether he had in the most bloody and brutal way he could.
01:37:17
Speaker
So now there was nothing keeping him from becoming the monster the father had already believed him to be. So now I've said all that, i want you guys to just picture me screenshotting the scene... copy pasting in like some shittily cropped JPEGs of Anakin, Obi, and Padme over the son, the father, and the daughter respectively, and then just using my trackpad to draw draw some red and orange scribbles and maybe a Volcano, and then you know gesturing at the screen of my laptop while growing more and more unhinged.
01:37:41
Speaker
People talk about like rotating the character TM in their mind. Meanwhile, they just rotate this entire damn franchise like I'm throwing it all in the washer on Spin Cycle. Again, it's like poetry. sort if They rhyme.
01:37:54
Speaker
Laura knows what I'm talking about rotating the character. Yeah. Or this piece franchise. Yep. I'm stuck. And so Anakin funnels the dying daughter's life energy into Ahsoka, saving her.
01:38:10
Speaker
I feel like I'm a broken record repeating myself about parallels, but my brain and myself by extension just can't stop looking at them and can't shut up about them. But now I get to say something kind different.
01:38:22
Speaker
Because Anakin does what Obi-Wan refused to do. Anakin saves Ahsoka. Like, he could have taken the father at his word that all hope was lost and Ahsoka lost with it, but Anakin refused to leave her behind.
01:38:33
Speaker
In this one instance, he doesn't give in to despair, believing Ahsoka lost him completely and running away to grieve someone who's still right there in front of him. Instead, he fights for her, asserting that the father is wrong, that there's always hope, and Ahsoka is worth hoping for.
01:38:48
Speaker
But also usurps the supposed nature of the Force by stealing the power of the gods and raising someone from the dead. Yeah, but even that aside, I'm still thinking just, you know, in another life, in another universe, Obi-Wan stayed with Anakin, like, picked him up off that lava bank and brought him somewhere to heal where they could finally just talk to each other for runs for once.
01:39:14
Speaker
This river may have been made out a lava, but Even without a bridge, there could have been a way back across if the two of them had only been willing to find it. And the galaxy could have been a much kinder place with a franchise just called Star.
01:39:25
Speaker
But that's our third FFA's problem for now. And for now, we get to enjoy it that Anakin kept his hope alive and saved my darling daughter Ahsoka! And then we get a rare Sniffs and Sky Guy hug, and I'm totally fine about it. No strong emotions here.
01:39:37
Speaker
I'm fine. Or where you could just ask a ah ah certain Skywalker 30. 40 years later. Or that.
01:39:48
Speaker
Of course, about about your franchise called Star, we do need to consider the original Starwalker. There we go. Nobody else gets that, but it's okay.
01:39:59
Speaker
I get it. I get you. man I get it. You guys told me about it. You know what I'm all about that? Then we have a closing moment with the father.
01:40:13
Speaker
As the balance in this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy.
01:40:21
Speaker
As my sun has descended into the dark side, so have the Sith gained strength. We will stop your sun. No! You must go now!
01:40:32
Speaker
He needs your ship to leave the planet. You must leave before he can take it. What about you? I shall mourn all that I have done. And all that is yet to be.
01:40:47
Speaker
So I got that going for me. ah So yeah. Ahsoka died. And was resurrected. And was resurrected. Thanks to a personification. Of an aspect of the force.
01:41:02
Speaker
just Just another average Sunday. and And there's lots of things. That Ahsoka does. In future stories. Spoilers!
01:41:13
Speaker
he I'm not saying specifics. Just let me finish my sentence. There's a lot of things Ahsoka does in future stories that take on a different weight if we see her as being an embodiment of the light side.
01:41:31
Speaker
Looking forward to seeing what that means. You also get to see her cool animal companion. Yes. I love Morai. She's wonderful. Mm-hmm. She appears like five times.
01:41:43
Speaker
And I love her. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. She appeared more. More Please don't do that. I mean, it's good.
01:42:01
Speaker
And after an hour and 42 minutes for two episodes, we we now are in the homestretch. We are at Ghosts of Mortis, episode 17 of season three.
01:42:15
Speaker
And the description is, Anakin is caught in between the light and dark sides. So again, with the duh in the long line. Duh! That's never happened before!
01:42:27
Speaker
Whoa! Anakin being conflicted? crazy night in the dark what a crazy random happenstance man i i wish i had pulled a clip from uh the musical episode of buffy dawn's in trouble must be tuesday yeah basically okay but before we get into the episode itself i just want to say something about the little like opening quote proverb epigram whatever the right word is alex damon calls them fortune cookies yeah basically Because you know I just find the word choice here kind of interesting. He who seeks to control fate shall never find peace.
01:43:03
Speaker
Because first I was like, isn't this kind of the opposite of every other lesson the Star War has about the future? Because fate doesn't sound all that much like a future in motion. But then as I was typing these notes, I had another thought. like Those Evergrandes at the beginning aren't something that exists in-universe. They're outside of it because they're meant for us, the audience.
01:43:21
Speaker
So maybe it's not a lesson or a suggestion this time so much as it is a reminder to the audience that no matter what happens here in this episode, the end result will always be the same because the future for these characters was more or less set back in 1977.
01:43:33
Speaker
But then going back to that wording, I think what stands out to me here is that for once fate doesn't refer to future outcomes, but rather to past events, the things that no amount of personal agency in the present can ever impact.
01:43:44
Speaker
Like I'm not going to spound on this anymore here because I know we'll get into it more throughout the episode, but I think it's something to keep in mind. It's, you know, also for those of us who have a certain specific relationship with the number 12, you know who you are.
01:43:55
Speaker
Maybe this puts the Jedi ideal of serenity in a different light.
01:44:01
Speaker
But anyway, getting into the episode itself. The first thing Obi-Wan asks is, or the first things Obi-Wan says is, you did well, Anakin. How do you feel? And of course, Anakin's response is, I'm not sure we're doing the right thing by leaving. And I have two things to say about this.
01:44:18
Speaker
First, we get a rare combo of Obi-Wan vocally praising Anakin and checking in with him. Sure, it'd be nice if this happened more often, especially when Annie was a tiny child. Oh, well, too late now. I'm sure there won't be any long-term repercussions from this.
01:44:31
Speaker
oh yeah It's where I say, like, this is a what? This is way soon. What? Obi-Wan is like, Anakin, how do you feel?
01:44:45
Speaker
How do you feel? I'm sorry, that's Star Trek 4. the other stuff a what A question that Obi-Wan has asked that's a slip through the entire...
01:44:59
Speaker
so I had never asked Anakin or barely at least but then of course there's Anakin's response but whether or not you're doing the right thing is not an emotion Anakin but I guess Obi-Wan is just gonna let him dodge the question entirely instead of actually getting Anakin to answer it who needs to be a bit about feelings anyway not this lineage but at least Obi-Wan barely tried did you even try It's barely. He's just so like, how are you dealing, Anakin, on this world of horrors and nightmares that and ah metaphors and I saw a ghost.
01:45:41
Speaker
Put a pin in that for a few minutes. Right. And he's like, you know, if I don't get the father's blessings to leave, it'll haunt me forever. And oh, look, more of everyone's favorite literary device.
01:45:53
Speaker
Whoa. Yay. Damn the issues. So then Anakin runs off to find the father and the father's all like, my actions have unleashed my son's darkness and sent him over the edge. It is my fault. The galaxy is now in danger. I must take responsibility for what I have done by killing my son.
01:46:11
Speaker
Like, hey, my dude, maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound all that much like taking responsibility. That sounds like trying to second degree murder your way out of a problem instead of actually trying to solve them. But, you know, go off, I guess.
01:46:24
Speaker
Well, then his son is... if he leaves this place is the epitome ah of super Satan. And his son nonetheless. Yeah.
01:46:35
Speaker
Yep. And speaking of seeing a ghost. o You have grown strong and powerful, just as I imagined. Master, do you believe you are the chosen one?
01:46:50
Speaker
How can I know? i can tell you what I believe. I believe you will bring balance to the Force. That you will face your demons and save the universe.
01:47:01
Speaker
and And this creature of the Dark Side, do I leave or do I stay and kill him? Neither. Look deeper. You will find another way. I don't understand.
01:47:13
Speaker
Not far from here, there is a place which is strong in the Dark Side of the Force. You must go there. And destroy the sun. Remember your training, Anakin.
01:47:25
Speaker
Trust your instincts. Master. Master!
01:47:35
Speaker
So we we bookend with another Qui-Gon ghost appearance. With Liam Neeson again. yep And still talking about the Chosen One.
01:47:47
Speaker
Of course. Still stuck on that. so So Anakin goes to the well of the dark side and the well of the dark side is lava filled hellscape.
Dark Visions and Foreshadowing
01:48:00
Speaker
Remember foreshadowing is still a literary device. Yep. In this case, it's a it's a hammer. It's like bang, bang, bang.
01:48:13
Speaker
vang and yeah I'm talking about parallels with Mustafar before I kind of just, you know, fast forward it to this. Yeah. Now you, you, you, you've alluded to it. And now it's like, uh, uh, it's just being like slammed right in your face.
01:48:29
Speaker
Yes. And now this this next clip is is kind of long, but there really wasn't anything to cut out. And some of it is just sound effects, but the whole thing is kind of pertinent as, ah well, but let's take a listen.
01:48:48
Speaker
Also to those who don't know, spoilers. I believe there has been a misunderstanding. We really don't have be enemies. You murdered your sister.
01:49:01
Speaker
The force is out of balance. I have to stop you. Must you? There is use for such crude implements here.
01:49:14
Speaker
I have a gift for you. I've had enough of your trickery. Oh, but you'll like this one, I promise.
01:49:25
Speaker
What if I could show
01:49:36
Speaker
No. No. Stop it. Know yourself. Know what you will become.
01:50:01
Speaker
I will not look. The Force is strong. Anakin, please. You were my brother, Anakin.
01:50:11
Speaker
Powerful set, you will be. hate you. No. No.
01:50:40
Speaker
I will do such terrible things. Yes.
01:50:46
Speaker
But it doesn't have to be that way. The choice is still yours to make. Hell. The future, by its nature, can be changed.
01:50:59
Speaker
Join me, and together we will destroy this Emperor you see in your visions. Then we shall end war, corruption and suffering throughout the galaxy.
01:51:12
Speaker
Will we bring Of course.
01:51:19
Speaker
Yep. Unsurprisingly, the sun knows exactly how to get at Anakin and try to convince him to join his side. And even less surprisingly... Hope meal raisin cookies.
01:51:30
Speaker
I mean, they're good. But also, like, even less surprisingly, it works because... several! Several! Several! Horrible things! Several! Horrible things! Several! Horrible things!
01:51:40
Speaker
that oh several horrible and i several hundred nightpares Yep, people he loves getting hurt and dying. And what's worse, he was the one who hurt them.
01:51:51
Speaker
Because he wanted to hurt them. Like, honestly, i don't think evil Papa Palpatine or the Vader suit or Alderaan or an evil and evil empire or even the prospect of being burned alive sold him on the sun's plan.
01:52:03
Speaker
I think it was just purely the idea that he, Anakin, could and would hurt the people he cares about. ah Poetry is a literary device. It's foreshadowing your rhymes. Again, it's like poetry, so if they rhyme.
01:52:19
Speaker
And speaking of that rhyming, the son tells him the choice is still yours to make, which echoes back to Shami in The Phantom Menace when Qui-Gon is offering to take him off to become a Jedi, and she tells him that you know this the path has been set before you.
01:52:39
Speaker
The choice is yours to make.
01:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, that part about choice just really... Which, in fact, depending on how you view Anakin's story, depending on if it's been manipulated by either the living force from the Chosen One prophecy or Palpatine or just in general,
01:53:03
Speaker
his you could argue that his destiny has been like kind of manipulated from the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, because it's like that part about choice just really keeps sticking with me because I feel like so much of Anakin's story seems to involve this irreconcilable conflict between him being able to make his own choices and his future already being set.
01:53:26
Speaker
and well i can't exactly say that And so many others having a vested interest in his future. Well, I can't exactly say that's an indecisive.
01:53:36
Speaker
that's intentional or whatever, it's a storytelling method because it's just facts that out of universe, the prequels came out after the original trilogy, i can still see the ways that ties into Anakin's character. Like he's told over and over again that he has the power to make his own choices and given his history, like you gotta believe he resents the idea of not having agency over his own life.
01:53:55
Speaker
However, he just rarely seems to choose anything until it's too late and his lack of action ends up making the choice for him. Unfortunately, though, choosing not to act is still a choice. But is that a choice to the fact that he became a Jedi, which restricted his choice?
01:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, but unfortunately, choosing not to act is still a choice. Insert Rush Free Willing theory.
01:54:20
Speaker
Thank you, Geddy Lee. and ah The only way to win the game is to not play the game. but I think that's how Anakin convinces himself at every turn that Whether his actions are justified or not, he had no choice but to carry them out.
01:54:35
Speaker
Like, he didn't want to murder a bunch of kids and force choke his wife and lose everyone and everything good in his life, but he had to. it was the only way. There was no other choice.
01:54:47
Speaker
It's almost like he's trying to keep himself that his actions were already decided. that they just happened without him making any kind of decision or doing anything on his own. So even if he can't find a way to justify the horrible things he did to himself, ultimately, I don't think he can because he's still trying to abdicate responsibility.
01:55:04
Speaker
The chosen one prophecy does abdicate that. It's like, I did what I had to do,
01:55:14
Speaker
but that's through the, I'm the chosen one.
01:55:20
Speaker
Yeah, and also, like, we've been talking about how Sam Witwer's voice acting is off the charts, but now I just really gotta throw it to Matt Lanter. Like, the sheer amount of raw emotion he injects into Anakin's dialogue after the sh after the sun shows him the future just really expresses, like, the devastation and the fear and the shame that Vision brought on.
01:55:37
Speaker
Like, you can hear how his voice breaks as Anakin admits, like, I will do such terrible things. also really like how all, for all the emotion coming through, not once do we hear anything that sounds like disbelief or even really shock.
01:55:49
Speaker
like for training help He understands it He knows, honestly, and that's probably the most powerful part of this. Mortis is, again, a magnet and an amplifier.
01:56:03
Speaker
Right now, he is feeling all of his darkest impulses compelled.
01:56:12
Speaker
And At no point does he feel... he feels guilt, shame from it. But he understands that, yes, he will allow Tarkin to blow up Alderaan.
01:56:26
Speaker
He will kill kill the younglings. He will do horrible, horrible things. But that's all in him, Amplified.
01:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, like as I was saying, not once do we hear anything that sounds like disbelief or really even shock, because it portrays how Anakin isn't all that surprised, because it's like he could always feel that darkness in himself and knows it's almost inevitable that one day he won't be able to contain it anymore.
01:56:57
Speaker
Again, that's what i'm saying. Like, that's why it makes sense to to say, back in an amplifier, it's like him seeing his worst self.
01:57:08
Speaker
and And that's what brings him to the point of submitting to the sun. It's like, I will do anything to not do that. He will do anything for love, but he won't do that.
01:57:22
Speaker
Okay, meet love.
01:57:25
Speaker
But Anakin sure does have a very peace at any cost philosophy. And we saw that starting in Attack of the Clones and as something again about foreshadowing.
01:57:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that thing again. Oh, yeah. Right. Now, when Anakin... Then Obi-Wan gets to the well, and Anakin is in full ends justify the means mode, and says, it is the Jedi who will stand in the way of peace.
01:57:58
Speaker
And, you know...
01:58:03
Speaker
While he's not wrong, oh even before that, nothing that the son said to him was false.
01:58:16
Speaker
Everything that the son said to him and showed him about the future was true. And we're not even pulling in a certain point of view TMCR.
01:58:30
Speaker
Nope, it's just facts. That is literally just events that happen beat for beat on the timeline. Yep. And then when Anakin gets back to the shuttle, we get ominous Imperial March music.
01:58:46
Speaker
And throughout the whole encounter with the sun... kiner put in underneath the dialogue a kind of slow kind of dirge like battle of the heroes music oh we we could do a whole episode about kevin kiner i could do episodes about kevin kiner i'll be honest but actually i will bring that up because i brought that weird laering the earlier yeah retir is the me
01:59:17
Speaker
oppos it for and it is going get some more you me and interesting like disco
01:59:30
Speaker
but did bring in more traditional Star Wars orchestral themes throughout the series, especially around this time.
01:59:42
Speaker
Yeah, feel especially this word hit. And then we have a little ah discussion between Anakin and the father. What did he show you?
01:59:55
Speaker
I've seen what I become, and I cannot let that happen. And for this you join him? Your destiny can change just as quickly as the love in one's heart can fade.
02:00:07
Speaker
Nothing be set in stone. But I will cause so much pain. If there is to be balance, what you have seen must be forgotten.
02:00:24
Speaker
After Anakin and the father, you we we cut to... um Is it the son and Anakin basically grave robbing the daughter to get the sword?
02:00:38
Speaker
More less. ah But... but I don't remember the exact scene, but what I have noted here is that I had noticed it earlier when the father was burying her.
02:00:52
Speaker
But yeah it's really interesting that the crypt of the daughter, the embodiment of the light side, has a symbol carved on it, both on the entrance and on her tomb that's associated with the Sith. Yeah.
02:01:09
Speaker
It has that SIF starburst. Yep. Yeah, the SIF starburst. And so we get... So you if we extrapolate that out before we dive into my next node, just kind of free-forming here a little bit.
02:01:25
Speaker
So all of the information that has filtered down to the material plane about the Force... is getting jumbled by the mere mortals that are dealing with it.
02:01:41
Speaker
I mean, pretty common event when it comes to religious texts and, you know, those kinds of things being passed down and translated and carried down before writing was even a thing.
02:01:52
Speaker
Translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted through millennia. Going back to the, the,
02:02:01
Speaker
going back to the the and this was like Legends Connection that you brought up the Tholior they had no ah no legions to the force but they did bring all force users to Tython so it's entirely possible that we are just not meant to view it from a certain point of sir certain perspective it's meant to be more
02:02:35
Speaker
agnostic to like look through it what's going on we like going back to balance like I think I remember it being a thing on Tython where if you were too much in the light they sent you to one of the moons to meditate on Bogan the other moon the dark one and vice versa Bogan is the dark one Asla is it it was the light one yeah like you know you would literally have to go sit on a moon and think about what you did if you were too light yeah But eventually that resulted in the Force Wars that eventually created the Sith and the Jedi.
02:03:13
Speaker
And that's a whole different rabbit hole that we can dive down another day. yeah yeah We don't have time to talk about right now, though. That's lessons. But could we fall back? yeah We get the final count confrontation.
02:03:26
Speaker
The Sun handles the three Jedi pretty easily. Just you know kind of slaps them away. And then the father takes the mortise blade from last episode and kills, well, himself, which cuts off the son's flow of power.
02:03:42
Speaker
And this next clip also was kind of long, but once again, i couldn't see anything that could warrant being cut out of it.
02:03:55
Speaker
But we must stop the son once and for all. We have little time and you'll get only one chance.
02:04:04
Speaker
You know what you must do. How quaint. My own personal send off.
02:04:14
Speaker
I ask you one last time. Do not leave my son. You have no power to keep me old man. You must understand by now this planet is not my destiny.
02:04:30
Speaker
What you will do will destroy all that is good. I beg you, restrain yourself and stay. cannot.
02:04:43
Speaker
And then it shall be. i love you my son. Do you?
02:04:51
Speaker
get a fuck
02:05:09
Speaker
what
02:05:12
Speaker
You're going to kill me now. I held hope that you could resist the dark side. But I see now... there no going back.
02:05:23
Speaker
Father... No! What have you done? It did not have to be this way! Yes, my child.
02:05:37
Speaker
It did. You and I are tied together. And your strength runs through me. This way, I take your power.
02:05:52
Speaker
Please don't die. I always knew there was good in you.
02:06:07
Speaker
And so you have betrayed me, Father.
02:06:24
Speaker
It is done. And now I die. My heart broken. But knowing the role you will play.
02:06:39
Speaker
And what is that? You are the chosen one. You have brought balance to this world.
02:07:11
Speaker
okay so there's a hell of a lot of to unpack here right now oh yeah it's like ah we are going to be probably like I'll let you guys speak. it ah Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good... I tried writing up like a conclusion.
02:07:31
Speaker
i I couldn't get a good one out. Figure one out. but There's a lot to talk about. like Just this ending alone.
02:07:43
Speaker
Betsy. Go. Go, Betsy. so go bety So, Anakin brought balance to Mortis, but let's take a step back and look at how he did it. By killing everyone!
02:07:56
Speaker
ah maybe not killing them all himself, but either way the answer was apparently death to all. And I guess that tracks with what the father says next about Anakin bringing balance if he stays on this path, because arguably that's what he does, bringing about eventual balance by killing a whole lot of people.
02:08:12
Speaker
It's like, I'd like to think that maybe eliminating the dark and light kids on Mortis was to supposed to prompt a more metaphorical course of action than a purely literal one. You know, like, destroying the false dichotomy between light and dark and acknowledging that every individual not only has the capacity for both, but will also act in accordance with both on any given day.
02:08:32
Speaker
But Ahsoka part of it the whole equation. is Yeah, but you know, everyone has the capacity for both and will act on both, and neither is inherently wrong or bad, and you know, even things like anger and fear can be helpful tools.
02:08:46
Speaker
But nope, guess we're just gonna do what happened on a larger scale, because surely genocide is the answer. You can't have people on the light and dark sides warring with each other if you kill them all first. But maybe this is where the father's final warning comes in. He cautions Anakin about his heart, which could mean Anakin's obsessive love for people or his capacity for strong emotions in general.
02:09:07
Speaker
But I think what the father is really trying to warn Anakin against is acting purely on impulse. Like going back to Anakin and not making decisions until it's too late. I think that's where impulse comes into play too. Like he finds himself with his back against the wall and he thinks that there's no way out. So he gives in to impulse, which for him is usually destructive.
02:09:25
Speaker
When he at first refuses choice, there's a sense to me that he does so because he can't see a way through no matter the outcome. And the same is true when he goes with whatever his knee jerk reaction is.
02:09:36
Speaker
But whether he just doesn't realize that there's always a way out or through or whether he just refuses to see that there is one is a discussion for another time.
Therapeutic Concepts and Morality Shift
02:09:44
Speaker
But that I also have more to say because stuff that I didn't write down but also just occurred to me as I was watching.
02:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, just I'm having a lot of feelings about, you know, the final words between the father and the son and how the last thing the son says is that the father betrayed him. Like that that's a way to go out.
02:10:04
Speaker
But then I think what's also sticking with me is, you know, we i made all these connections and talked at length about how it's a lot like Bustafar. And I think that's where it comes back to this again, where, you know, he told the father he hated him when he was initially trying to kill him.
02:10:19
Speaker
And yet when push comes to shove and the father is actually dying, he regrets everything because as much as he was upset and maybe even did hate him a little bit in that moment, he never stopped loving him. He never stopped caring for him.
02:10:31
Speaker
And, you know, to me that just... also lines correctly up with everything that Anakin killed daughter and the son killed the daughter and regretted him mutually. Yeah, so like, you know, that goes back to what I said about just putting JPEGs over everything where, you know, it goes right back to Anakin and how in the moment he gives in impulse, so the son gives in to this impulse and lets his emotions rule him without trying to take a step back and think about what's actually happening in front him. represents the dark side impulse, a
02:11:03
Speaker
power grab but he is also emotional he's he will carry those emotions when he makes those horrible mistakes but it's like he does also say like I can strike for power but I don't want to lose them and it's just this is also kind of putting me back into something I said earlier about Marshall in a Hand Shaped Boulders and how I just So there's this concept in therapy, remember I'm not a professional, called wise mind, where you're supposed to combine like your emotion mind, which is all your feelings and everything that's kind of like, you know, going on there, and then your rational mind, which is all like the logical, factual stuff, and how you're supposed to combine those together to something in the middle, and use that to guide your choices and your actions and everything. Yeah, I know that.
02:11:52
Speaker
And just... that Imagine with me for a moment, if you will, if someone had taught that to Anakin, or even in this case, just the sun and how much better everything would be if they just let themselves manage things appropriately. We'd probably not have sour bar.
02:12:09
Speaker
Exactly. I'm fine. I'm fine. But... I know. I i know. It's like...
02:12:16
Speaker
But again, this just goes back to everything that I've been saying about like all these strong parallels and how much all of this is really just a microcosm of everything that's going to happen throughout the rest of the prequel trilogy and really just the story of Anakin, Obi-Wan, the entire disaster lineage, and then from there, just the galaxy as a whole.
02:12:35
Speaker
Unfortunately, i understand the fact that that has to happen because unfortunately that's how storytelling happens because we have to use storytelling to like pseudo- So give therapy, but no one understands says storytelling. ye See what I said back at the beginning about, you know, the opening epigram, the fortune cookie.
02:12:57
Speaker
therapy Therapy could be storytelling, but no one understands it. So we need therapy. Yep. And i fear we have then we are at a conclusion. Our heroes leave Mortis and they're hailed by Rex, who says that they were off the scopes for a minute.
02:13:22
Speaker
So we now have... And everyone's very upset because we now we have dream theory. Oh no, not dream theory. ah we we have dream theory, and from a production standpoint, we also have plausible deniability for all the weird force crap from the episodes not really happening if they need to go down that route.
02:13:46
Speaker
That was the strangest dream. You were there, and you were there, and you were there. You there, and you were there. And I killed people, and everyone died, and there was an explosion, and lava, and... And I will give And a bat and a griffin.
02:14:02
Speaker
As someone that does Star Wars role-playing games, and in my and personal opinion... What? You do Star Wars role-playing games? Lies, I don't blame them. i ain't gonna say that it happened.
02:14:17
Speaker
And that's my personal view. But before we end. I mean, live action is about to tell us that, yeah, it absolutely happened. Mm-hmm.
02:14:28
Speaker
and our Anyway, anyway, anyway, Lauren has been yes uncharacteristically quiet and we we know why, but it's time to let our listeners know why.
02:14:41
Speaker
Normally at this point in the episode, I would say, so what'd you think about these episodes? But you have thoughts as well. Yes, I do in fact have thoughts, although they are more broad thoughts that cover the topics of the episodes more holistically.
02:14:58
Speaker
They are nonetheless valid thoughts. And so I wasn't really able to discuss them until now, where we're actually, we know the context of the entire episodes.
02:15:09
Speaker
So when it comes to the world of Star Wars, the original trilogy solely operates on the concept of black and white morality. The dark side is evil. Everything else is good. Although the light side is never really name dropped as a counterpoint.
02:15:25
Speaker
Much of the prequel material is questioning this idea. We see the Jedi at the peak of their power, with great control over the galaxy, and with relatively insubstantial dark side influence.
02:15:37
Speaker
However, the Jedi are constantly shown to do questionable things. They allow slavery to continue existing in the galaxy. They effectively kidnap children from their homes. They act as a bastion of law and peace, even when those laws are unjust and that peace upholds cruelty.
02:15:52
Speaker
Pretty much the entirety of the prequels involve both metaphorically and literally tearing down the Jedi Order. However, while the prequels do a good job of indicating that light does not equal good, dark is still unquestionably evil.
02:16:08
Speaker
This black and white morality has now been converted to black and gray morality, with basically everybody being terrible in some way. There are vague allusions to the idea that there might be good on the dark side, heroes on both sides and such, but on a practical level, anyone standing against the Jedi is still solidly terrible.
02:16:29
Speaker
I feel like the Mortis arc is the start of a further shift in this perception. It says that light and dark are both important, that they're both necessary, that they both have the capacity for good and evil.
02:16:42
Speaker
We've already seen that the light side has the capacity for good within the original trilogy, and in more modern works, we're starting to see that those aligned with darkness have the capacity for good in their own right, such as with Nightsister Maren in Jedi Fallen Order, who still uses the dark side, but is solidly one of the protagonists by the endgame.
02:17:01
Speaker
And from what a little I've heard, the Acolyte also seems to play into these concepts as well. So, while not particularly invested in the specifics of the character drama present in these episodes, I do think this arc demonstrates a shift in perspective that it's slowly been developing over time in regards to what light and dark mean within the Star Wars universe.
02:17:28
Speaker
Well said! Yes, very well. Honestly, that is actually, i read that, and it's like, it's probably your best input that you've given. Like, it's really, really strong.
02:17:41
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. But you can also see why i wasn't really able to say most of this stuff in the middle of the episodes because yeah it requires the context of the entire trilogy of episodes to really get the idea across. And even had, like, some outside influences that you've seen before in other media that I've shown you.
02:18:03
Speaker
Yes. Like, that's...
02:18:07
Speaker
Thank you. like Thank you very much. Yeah, that that's very... yeah that was very insight That's why we have you in Clone Watch. That's why I'm here.
02:18:19
Speaker
and yeah and Yes, we... The three of us could probably waffle on about like other stuff that's been talked about before.
02:18:29
Speaker
oh yeah But your ending... Honestly... ah um as I was going to say another round of applause. Yay, Lauren!
02:18:42
Speaker
Because it's it's very it's very insightful and does prove that you are learning the lore and taking it in and absorbing and made a very great point.
02:18:56
Speaker
One of us! One of us! and ah And they yeah not one of us. A unique point of view. and it the less And at this point, we have been talking for nearly two and a half hours, about roughly 64 minutes worth of television.
02:19:18
Speaker
A children's show at that. Yes. Oh, don't worry. We'll talk about like like eight hours about about the four um about the last Jedi.
02:19:30
Speaker
Is this a bad time for me to say that there was stuff that I didn't put into the actual doc that I hadn't copy pasted? i did too! I mean, you you can say it out loud if you want, but I think we all knew that anyway.
02:19:45
Speaker
yeah yeah i i i am definitely you know the next time i talk to the movie defenders i'm gonna tell them yeah you guys rubbed off on us with this episode it's not my fault i just don't know how to shut up sometimes and the war wea we actually we probably end this episode so before we continue yeah yeah and And we did this without having, you know, an hour's worth of regular bits at the beginning.
02:20:19
Speaker
so Oh, boy. with So um anyway, we want to thank everyone who has stuck with this extra giant size episode because we had lots of thoughts, lots of things to say.
02:20:37
Speaker
i imagine, you know, looking at the... at the chronological watch order. Our next episode won't be this long because it we we head into more traditional Star Wars fare rather than George Lucas's ah weird acid trip definition of the Force.
02:20:57
Speaker
But thank you all for listening. i am as always, Daryl. I'm Nick. I'm Lauren. And I'm Betsy, and I appreciate all of you putting up with me.
02:21:08
Speaker
yeah we We love putting up with you, Betsy. Mm-hmm. And we... I'm pretty sure they're gonna vote me out if they had to vote but anyone out. Yep.
02:21:20
Speaker
Yep. Nick's voted off the island. Oh, no! Oh, does this mean we have to stop because you started making fun of Nick? Is that how that works? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
02:21:32
Speaker
We're making fun of Nick. So that's yeah the end of the episode. So we're doing the end of the of episode. so So thank you everyone for for listening. And we will see you next time on Casual Nerdity.
02:21:44
Speaker
Bye.
02:21:51
Speaker
This has been Casual Nerdity. We hope you've enjoyed your time with us and look forward to having you back.
02:22:09
Speaker
Thank you.