Transcript
Daryl: Welcome back to Casual Nerdity, everybody. ah We are giving Clone Watch a break again this week because, well, Lauren's not here. Lauren is off traveling the the wilds as a friend is moving.
Daryl: So it's not Chicago.
DarthSylar: Of Chicago.
Daryl: It's just Illinois. We've had this conversation 27 times. but I'm here. I'm Daryl.
Daryl: Nick is here. hi Nick.
DarthSylar: Yep, I'm Nick.
Daryl: And we have back with us once again, very special guest star, Brev. Welcome, Brev.
Brev Work Computer: Hello, thank you.
DarthSylar: Brav. Brav.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. woa whoa Thanks for having me back, gentlemen. And I'm using that term very loosely with you two.
Daryl: Oh, very, very loosely.
Brev Work Computer: So very loosely.
Daryl: It's always a pleasure to have you back because...
DarthSylar: Yes.
Daryl: it' It's always great talking with you, whatever we're talking about, but there's a pattern developing, if anyone is paying attention. Brev is here, which means we're talking comics today.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, comic books. Love comic books.
Daryl: Comics!
Brev Work Computer: Yes, it's the best.
Daryl: And at ah there's no spoiler because it's in the episode title, but what we're going to be talking about today is we will be talking about the Dark Knight Returns turning
Brev Work Computer: okay
Brev Work Computer: Which is weird because I'm 48. Yes. Yes. eight
Brev Work Computer: ah
Daryl: Let me put it this way. You know me, Brev. You know that my all-time favorite comic is New Teen Titans.
Brev Work Computer: okay yes
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: And in 1988, when Action Comics 600 hit, and you I'm all of 18, I'm like, wow, 50 years. That's inconceivable.
Daryl: We are closing in fast on New Teen Titans being 50.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. Yes, we are. I'm still saying we we need to do a show.
Daryl: We are fast.
Brev Work Computer: It's dedicated to rereading the Teen Titans.
Daryl: Oh, i I still absolutely plan to and want to. i
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: just need need to make sure.
DarthSylar: You've been pitching it to us every just about every other week.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: yep we we need to make sure that Betsy has copies to read.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And ah if Nick is going to join us, it Nick has copies to read. And I...
DarthSylar: I'll have to read them for the first time.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, even better.
Daryl: Ooh! Yes!
Brev Work Computer: It's been a long time since I read them. And was I got the they did a whole bunch of trades few years ago and they went through all all the way through through volume 14. And that's what I i got through volume 14.
Brev Work Computer: And I was like waiting for 15 and then they never did it. And so like that whole run of new Titans with the wildebeest hunt and all that, they never are Titans hunt.
DarthSylar: thanks I think my first
Brev Work Computer: They they have still haven't reprinted it yet.
DarthSylar: think my first like actual Teentide's book was the one where Cyborg was absorbing the moon.
Daryl: they are They are about to.
Daryl: Oh, so that's like, that's like, that's JLA Titans.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Yeah, I think that was my first one.
Daryl: yeah that So Brev, you are in luck. They announced the first ah new Titans reprint volume here just recently.
Brev Work Computer: No shit. Are we allowed to curse? I forget on your show.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Okay. All right.
Daryl: I mean, if if if we if we weren't, then you know Betsy has broken that rule plenty of times.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, that's right.
DarthSylar: Multiple times.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: All right. Okay. Fucking a.
Daryl: now of what What I think it is, is since we also post to YouTube, it has to get through the first couple of minutes before we really can.
Brev Work Computer: All right. Hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Okay.
Daryl: And then the algorithm stops looking for it.
Brev Work Computer: Excellent. Excellent. i think we're past a couple minutes, so we're good. Yeah.
Daryl: Yep. Yep, we are. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Dude, I'm looking it up right now.
Daryl: they
Brev Work Computer: This is, oh, you see, yeah, I see that they had the new omnibuses, which I've become like this omnibus slut, but it's mostly for the Claremont run of of Uncanny X-Men.
Brev Work Computer: Duh. But like, I've got most of those. And then a few other things, my kids are always coming here and man, how much money have you spent on this? go Don't worry about it. you You need to get a scholarship to go to college. But like,
Brev Work Computer: Then I started like, man, maybe maybe I should replay, re-buy, you know, because I'm done with money. All these Teen Titan ones as well in the omnibus version.
DarthSylar: Yeah, this has them to get an apprenticeship.
Brev Work Computer: There you go. That's the way to do it. Yes, an apprenticeship. Yes. So anyway, okay, cool.
Daryl: But yeah, the Yeah, they just announced the first New Titans omnibus starting with New Titans 50 when Perez came back. And they did Who is Wonder Girl?
Daryl: And Perez quickly left again.
Brev Work Computer: I remember those. Yes. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Did do they ever figure out what was going on with the Troy?
Brev Work Computer: yeah
DarthSylar: Or is it just never figured out?
Daryl: um Flip a coin. Because...
DarthSylar: you did that that's That's Robert's thing, Daryl.
Daryl: they
Daryl: Because they with who is
DarthSylar: Because you know I can't flip a coin. I tried it several times.
Daryl: with who is Wonder Girl, they gave her her post-crisis origin. And it was fine. everything Everything was hunky-dory. It was still tied to Greek myth because ah they included the Titans of Myth in there. And you know there was no need for a Wonder Woman connection. There was still no real reason why she called herself Wonder Girl since in that continuity she appeared. before Wonder Woman still, but hey, comics.
Daryl: And
DarthSylar: I didn't mean to actually ask you the question. I meant just ah hypothetical because we do have it we do have a podcast to I did.
Daryl: and and then...
DarthSylar: I did.
Daryl: we we'll Yeah, we'll we'll get you You pulled this trigger, Nick.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: i did i did
Daryl: Then and John Byrne took over Wonder Woman and decided that he needed to make Donna's history insanely convoluted.
DarthSylar: um i was
Daryl: So he did. And then killed her off again. hurt killed her off or something. And then she died in the Titans Young Justice crossover.
Daryl: And then she came back. And the current the current definitive origin last year's um Titans annual was by Phil Jimenez.
Brev Work Computer: Just comics.
Daryl: And it is her current origin. she's She's back to Wonder Woman having rescued her because Wonder Woman didn't debut way after Batman and Superman anymore.
Daryl: And it's just it's an incredible, wonderful story. And I read it, and there were invisible ninjas cutting onions right in my face while I was reading it.
Brev Work Computer: all Oh.
Daryl: um it It was truly wonderful. that The framing sequence was, you you recall, Brev, how the who is Donna Troy issue had Dick investigating her background and she found out about her birth mother who had died and then her second, her first adoptive family and all of that.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah. Oh.
Daryl: ah Well, she's on the search for her birth father.
Daryl: And, you know, she's she's been contacted by her birth father. And is on her way to meet him for the first time and ruminating about her past history.
Brev Work Computer: Nice.
Daryl: And it's it is a beautiful story.
Brev Work Computer: that came out last year.
Daryl: Yeah, it was the Titans 2025 annual.
Brev Work Computer: All right. I might have to, I, I was getting Titans and then i was just kind like, and then I thought, well, and then I wanted to get, I think I'm just going to get DC infinite.
Daryl: Nice. and It might be on there.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. I've got Marvel unlimited. I think it might be a Marvel unlimited. I've had, I've had that for years and that's saved me a bunch of money. I'm reading old stories there that to go back and buy, but yeah.
Daryl: there's There's a beautiful scene where after the the Teen Titans first have their first mission, Dick invites them for a sleepover in the Batcave.
Brev Work Computer: Nice.
DarthSylar: That's nice.
Daryl: And Batman doesn't know.
Brev Work Computer: oh No, no, it's going to get in trouble.
Daryl: And Batman comes home. Alfred knows, but Batman doesn't know.
Brev Work Computer: Of course.
Daryl: And so, you know, he...
DarthSylar: They all die and are cloned.
Daryl: No, and so Donna stands up for Dick. You know, she's like, he just wants friends.
Brev Work Computer: Yes, she does. No. Oh.
Daryl: ah So it it's a great story. It's a great story. Anyway, on to our topic here.
Brev Work Computer: Ooh.
Daryl: Dark Knight Returns at 40. So let let me paint a scene here. I actually i actually made notes so that we can kind of do a setup.
Brev Work Computer: who
DarthSylar: oh
Daryl: It's all fancy. So it's March 20th, 1986, and it's just two weeks after DC wrapped up Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Brev Work Computer: Yes, it is. Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: yes it is
Daryl: And now on Comic Shop's shelves is Batman The Dark Knight Returns number one. And Frank Miller, rising superstar at the time, fresh off of Daredevil, he brings in this four-issue vision of an aging Batman.
Brev Work Computer: oh yeah
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: Bruce Wayne, whose decades passed his prime, and I have words about that in a little bit, dragged out of...
Brev Work Computer: A little too close to home, Daryl?
Daryl: ah Yeah, just a little. And he's dragged out of retirement because Gotham has gotten that bad again. And it gave us a brand new format.
Daryl: hub This was the first time that we'd had that square bound, thicker paper, glossy, all of that. The industry didn't even have a name for it. People just kept calling it the Dark Knight format until other publishers started using it. And they're like, we can't call this Dark Knight format.
Daryl: We're not going to advertise DC when we're Marvel.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And it was, are you ready for this? It was $2.95 an issue.
Brev Work Computer: I was just telling you guys before the show started, I was complaining that the recent uncanny X-Men is now 699. And I'm like, yeah.
DarthSylar: Back in my day,
Daryl: Yeah, I mean, well, if you if you think about it, at the time, the the average comic was, what was it still 75 cents?
Brev Work Computer: 70 cents, 70 cents. I remember I started collecting. They went from, I think from 75 to a dollar and the premium books, like things like alpha flight and cloak and dagger, you know, the shit nobody was buying.
Brev Work Computer: Um, they were a buck 25.
DarthSylar: When I started getting into it the it was it
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yep. yeah
Daryl: Oh.
DarthSylar: fifty to like two and then like you got to like five in the in the ten s
Daryl: now Now that I think about it, I know that it that they were still 75 cents because when DC launched their higher end New Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes, those were $1.25, $1.50.
Daryl: And they were like, but it's on better paper, better coloring, et cetera. And then they launched a mid-grade format for like young all-stars.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And that was a buck.
Daryl: It was right in between.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. They felt like they were a dollar for so long. And I know that I'm like, you know, I even got into a discussion with Tom Brevoort once on Twitter about this.
Brev Work Computer: Like, I remember when comics were a dollar. Why, why, why do they got to be $5? And was like, well, at one point in time, cars weren't that expensive or, you know, whatever. Or the homes weren't that expensive.
DarthSylar: and that's That's everything. That's inflation and market prices.
Brev Work Computer: I'm like, yeah.
Daryl: Well, i as much as i as much as I hate to say that, well, I don't know about now.
DarthSylar: It's ah that
Daryl: I haven't had him do this lately. But in the 90s, when prices were going up, I had said something about it. And my dad used to work in the pre-press business.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: And so he's like, well, let let me see one. And he looked at it and he he looked it. the the paper and the print quality and all of that. And remember when they used to have to legally run the circulation information once a year?
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Daryl: So he said, well, you know, if I knew what the circulation was like, hang on, I went and got one of those. And he's like, okay, if if this is an average book and these are this is the average circulation and this is the, yeah, they're priced right.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: i was like, oh, okay. But even...
DarthSylar: Or was your dad working for big comics?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Your dad was in on it, Daryl.
Daryl: Oh, I wish.
Brev Work Computer: Life would have been so much different, right?
Daryl: it's It would. Now, even at that small fortune 86 of 295 issue,
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: it it was a hit and it was also a reinvention yeah In the same way that Crisis reshaped the whole DC universe, Dark Knight Returns kind of redefined Batman.
Daryl: Darker, older, more myth. ah As I was rereading it this week, I'm honestly starting to think that parts of Dark Knight Returns is where Denny O'Neill got his whole, oh no, no, everybody thinks Batman is an urban myth thing.
Brev Work Computer: Possibly.
Daryl: And... um
DarthSylar: it's it's I can agree with that. like it There's definitely from that all the way going back to the Ozy origin in Detective Comics, but it definitely was reinforced here.
Daryl: Well, I mean, you it a couple just a few years later in Tim Drake's origin, part of how he figures out who Batman and Robin are is watching footage of them on the news.
Daryl: And this is right in the heart of Denny O'Neill's no, no, Batman is an urban legend kick.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DarthSylar: yeah
Daryl: But now we're 40 years later and we're going to go back and take a look at the Dark Knight Returns at 40 years old.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And so I did take some notes as I was rereading. I broke them down based on issue, but we don't have to talk about it that way. We can talk about you just whatever aspects of it we want to.
DarthSylar: and then And there's still like there's also the meta commentary on what it meant for comics as well.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah.
Daryl: absolutely. Absolutely.
DarthSylar: This is ah this is ah not just a major impact for the Batman franchise, but it's also a, and I spent a while trying to trying to pronounce this correctly, a seminal work in the annals of comic history.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, you you you can't you you can't you can't understate that.
Daryl: It's a good thing that you said annals right.
DarthSylar: I say if anyone's so and all.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: I spent a long time trying to pronounce that correctly and I have a speech impediment.
Brev Work Computer: not not Not seminal.
DarthSylar: That's what I'm trying to avoid.
Daryl: Yes.
DarthSylar: have a speech impediment so i did I spent some time trying to say correctly.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: No, it's all good. You know, this this was, you know... Nick, I don't, I don't really, i don't know how old you are, but I know that it really upsets me when I see Frank Miller was like less than 30 years old when, when he made this and I'm going like, I'm well past that point.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: What have I done with my life?
DarthSylar: I'm 33 but I already recognize that that my life's not going anywhere.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: I'm happy where it is.
Brev Work Computer: And it just, and when I see things like this and I'm like, wow, that's just, I mean, to think about like, he was this like what, 18 year old kid that, that made it into Marvel comics and had such a success with Daredevil that he would.
DarthSylar: yeah
DarthSylar: its And his impact. He he inspired the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with his Daredevil run.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly. Yeah.
DarthSylar: like Even without putting pen to paper, he inspired other people to put pen to paper. I just accept that I'm just going to live my life doing whatever I'm doing.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: do it
Brev Work Computer: It's D and D and porn all night long. And that's fine. That's great. I mean, I enjoy that too, but yeah.
Daryl: Exactly.
DarthSylar: you we're We're on the same page, yeah.
Daryl: i mean...
Brev Work Computer: yeah When the pages don't stick together. Yeah. So, but like, it's like, it's the case of like,
Daryl: Exactly. Exactly.
DarthSylar: that's that why That's why the internet is great.
Brev Work Computer: this
DarthSylar: There are different tabs.
Brev Work Computer: don't use, don't use my keyboard, but like, it's just a sick case so like, what a fantastic run he had on that. And then going over and just, he redefines Daredevil.
Brev Work Computer: Right. And he makes all those panels. So cinematic. I mean, this is like Citizen Kane, Greg Toland asks a cinematography with like this Orson Wellesian style.
Brev Work Computer: Like, where can I put the camera? And then he,
DarthSylar: and then And then he jumps right jumps completely other to the other side to a brand new story, and he and it's his first time at the run of the character, and he reinvents it and comics as a whole for a generation.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Well, strictly speaking, Nick, it wasn't his first run at the character because there is the wanted Santa Claus dead or alive issue that he did the art for
Brev Work Computer: Right.
DarthSylar: True.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: And let's not forget that I think.
Daryl: a few years before that.
Brev Work Computer: Right around this time, hadn't he also done the Wolverine miniseries of Chris Claremont?
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, he did the War of Reader 2.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah, so Daredevil and Wolverine were like a one-two punch at Marvel. And thinking thinking about him taking Daredevil and just knocking it out of the park and and putting the book in the stratosphere...
DarthSylar: Catapulting him into...
Daryl: there seemsbs In the 80s, there was a pattern of long-running Marvel characters that were just kind of barely chugging along and nobody really wanted them. And these these young upstarts who had not really done much of anything said, well, I'll take it And they ran with it because there's Miller on Daredevil.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: there's ah that's when That's exactly how Peter David came on Hulk.
DarthSylar: Is
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: ah what isn' it the way Claremont started getting his early licks in?
Daryl: Oh, no. The 80s was when X-Men just skyrocketed and became a franchise.
DarthSylar: Oh, you're right, yeah.
Daryl: but But it had been a top seller at Marvel for... most of the 80s. Part of the reason Wolfman and Perez did Muting Titans the way they did at DC in 80 was a direct response to the success of X-Men.
Brev Work Computer: And it's <unk> if for an X-Men fan, long time X-Men fan. That's why i slide right into New Teen Titans. Like, boom, I got this. I know exactly what we're doing.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I even picked up a some Legion of Superheroes because I've heard that that's actually, if as an X-Men fan, probably enjoy that too. That's a little bit more.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: That's a lot going on. There's a lot of people, but that's okay.
Daryl: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. But I'm just sitting here thinking to myself, like... Frank Miller takes on Daredevil and takes him from B-list to iconic, takes on Wolverine from Team Bruiser to Laird antihero, and then he takes on Batman and traditional hero to the mythic grim legend that is now here today.
Brev Work Computer: That is one man that redefined three major characters in comic books.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, man.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: Again, like regardless of his... There could be a lot said about the legacy that he's left behind, but you could catadise that his he's earned his place in history, in comic book history, with with his especially his especially around this era.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Absolutely.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah, totally.
Daryl: And one that one thing that struck me, just even in the opening pages of this as I was rereading this week, it's become kind of the norm for comics to use what is now called a cinematic approach to it.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm.
Daryl: But this was...
DarthSylar: And that is also a thing that he was doing, like as you mentioned in his DareTel stuff. He was using some actual, he was bringing frames from from cinema into like the frames of a comic book.
Brev Work Computer: Correct.
Daryl: Oh yeah, this was so very this was very cinematic in the truest sense of it because there's some real cross-media stylization in there that you i I could see the movie in my head as I was reading.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: I could hear a lot of the characters in my head as if it was a movie, which doesn't always happen with a comic for me.
Brev Work Computer: No, no, it doesn't.
DarthSylar: Again, like, it it's...
Brev Work Computer: And what's that's great about the Dark Knight Returns is that he plays on the MTV video generation way we way we grew up looking at things um from that stylized point.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: But then also for the 16 grids here, 16 panel grid pages, which is through most of it. And then he'll have this explosion page where go like, oh, Oh, my God. And it really, but that that way, that splash page really hits you because your eyes get trained.
Brev Work Computer: Okay, this is going to be 16 panels across. Okay, cool, cool. Yeah, no problem, no problem. Close-ups, close-ups. It's fine. It's fine. read This is really good, really good. and then, boom, Batman's huge. He's got this grappling hook rifle.
Brev Work Computer: He's being dragged through the sky on a by a helicopter. And you're like, this is fucking great.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
DarthSylar: It's
Brev Work Computer: It just explodes. Go ahead, Nick.
DarthSylar: it similar to like, ah to a similar around the same time, Wattsman, the fearful symmetry every moment of where like two page two pages are like replicated to create a longer story. This one is much more like, you know, every page is here your panel you're dragging down until the big pop page.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And there's also this there's this futuristic look to it that made me... I had never really considered this this point until a week or two ago when I saw another anniversary analysis of the story on YouTube.
Daryl: So full credit to Owen Likes Comics for making me realize this.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, I watched this.
DarthSylar: Oh, I think I just watched that as well, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Yes.
Daryl: that
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: But you know it's a story about
DarthSylar: Shout out.
Daryl: an older Batman in the future, but that future is 1986. It's set around, it's set around 1986 or thereabouts.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: You there, there's not really any future tech beyond normal comics, super tech.
DarthSylar: Honestly, the the future that that it has is very reminiscent of...
Daryl: And,
DarthSylar: Of the... I completely lost it right now. Malcolm McDowell d movie.
Brev Work Computer: A clockwork orange?
Daryl: Oh.
DarthSylar: A Clockwork Orange.
Brev Work Computer: Interesting.
DarthSylar: it's sort of It's sort of like it's the future, but it's run down. It's not clean.
Brev Work Computer: It's dirty, gritty.
DarthSylar: And the clean parts are dirty, and the in the get the the the vernacular has changed, but it's like...
Daryl: Yeah.
Daryl: The vernacular's changed, but Reagan's president, all of the cultural touchstones are very 80s coded.
DarthSylar: It's still, like, recognizable as, like, this could happen in...
Daryl: And. Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's... it's 20 minutes into the future.
Brev Work Computer: o
DarthSylar: But it's like if 20 minutes was like 10 years.
Daryl: And
Daryl: ah one one of the things that that Owen mentioned is if you really if you look at the timeline, you know given how long they say that Batman was around, this is the future of the Golden or Silver Age Batman or the Adam West Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, yeah. That'd be 20 years after the Adam West Batman.
DarthSylar: Which can be seen.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: and With, again, a lot of people consider this to be like the the antithesis of that.
Daryl: you know because he
DarthSylar: It's like, this is when Batman shed the the the Adam West sort of goofiness.
Daryl: yeah Yeah, even though it it hadn't been that in the books for quite a while, this is what shook that from the public consciousness.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Well, yeah, because it just, it you know, like the first cover, you got this lightning bolt streaming through the sky, right?
DarthSylar: Oh, can we talk about that?
Brev Work Computer: And it's like Batman's jumping through.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: That that's image is is is the the Dark Knight Returns.
Brev Work Computer: yeah it just, this this whole thing just came. ah
Brev Work Computer: yeah it's so fucking cool.
DarthSylar: it
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It is like the lightning bolt in the background, the cape in the background, this sort of streaking off of like a gargoyle.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: That is the Batman image and ah in everyone's minds. It's been omas so many times. It's been even been omas in and recent... ah Some books like in the the absolute Batman books.
Brev Work Computer: e I think like this,
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: You can't escape it, it's just that iconic.
Brev Work Computer: I think, but, but, but I think to Nick, to your point about, you know, in the public consciousness, Batman had been Adam West since 1966. And I love that. I love the show.
Brev Work Computer: I love the movie.
DarthSylar: Oh, it's hilarious.
Brev Work Computer: It's great.
DarthSylar: I love the fact that it came from those old serials, that they had no money, and that these old people were like, oh, this is hilarious.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Let's make it into an absolute comedy show.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's so it's so charming, right? You just you can't help it. You're smiling. You're having a good time. But the public consciousness, that's what they associate a Batman with.
DarthSylar: Everyone's having a good time. its it
Brev Work Computer: Whereas, you know, you know other to Daryl's point, though, like in the comics, they had kind of Denny O'Neill and and Neil Adams and those guys and other guys after that had had brought him back to the darker roots that he had been before.
DarthSylar: And the the classic roots was where...
Brev Work Computer: um But nobody knew that because nobody did just nobody getting it because many people outside of comic collectors didn't know that. But when this came around, this shook up the world or at least the United States and got people to look at who's Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, bat I thought Batman was this comic book nerds knew like, no, no, no, that's that's not how that works. That's not who Batman is.
Daryl: I mean,
Brev Work Computer: But like the rest of the world now. real up Yeah, he's back.
DarthSylar: it's a major factor into getting getting the timbered movie off the ground.
Brev Work Computer: The Tim Burton movie. Yeah. Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: at the time,
DarthSylar: It may not have spaced it off of this, but it was based off of like the more classic golden age, like Dark Knight Adventures. is like This was what helped jumpstart that back into the mainstream.
Daryl: Well, at the time, mainstream media articles about comics always went back to Adam West with their headlines because it was always like, pow, bam, you know comics aren't just for kids, you know, that kind of thing.
Brev Work Computer: Sure. oh
Brev Work Computer: Even with your onomatopoeias. Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah, and um this this also kind of, you for better or for worse, Dark Knight kind of also...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: fostered it you know i I say this as someone who was like this at the time because I was stupid teenage me. um and what The way I described when what I was posting dinosaur to school, yes.
DarthSylar: like Back when you were back taking a ah writing on a product. Yes.
Daryl: ah ah um yeah the The way I described it when I was posting about your most recent episode of Movie Defenders Backlot Tour, B'Rev,
Brev Work Computer: Yep. yep
Daryl: um that This was this and up to Batman 89 was kind of the heart of the fans screaming, please, God damn it, won't someone take these power fantasy morality plays created for children seriously.
Daryl: Fuck.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And.
Brev Work Computer: ah
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Amazing, isn't it?
Daryl: And it this one did, but it didn't go to that extreme that we fanboys were were taking it.
Daryl: they
DarthSylar: It was, can acknowledge it.
Daryl: yeah We took it too seriously.
DarthSylar: I can acknowledge that it's like, but that was the first time were like, being seen seriously.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, being being taken ast being taken as an art form it's supposed to be looked at, yes.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: For years, like, like a I remember, like, I found out my father had a whole lot of old school comics that he got rid of. was like, why did he get rid of them? It's like, well, I grew up. don't know. It's like, but Then did he value? Yeah, I learned a lot about life and stuff them, but like their kids stuff like.
Daryl: hu One thing, too, that I noticed as I was rereading, because it it had been a long time since I'd read the thing cover to cover again.
Brev Work Computer: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
Daryl: And I noticed that there was a a through line that sadly is just as relevant today of the media and the news media.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm. That's honestly something that and something that I remember when I did a reread of the sequel about like a couple years ago and taking a look for this. like ah Miller was recognizing the fact that there's a lot of like the news media and how it controls narratives and its and the society.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: And like along those lines, I have a question for the two of you. Just a few pages in, we start seeing that pattern.
DarthSylar: Whoa, whoa, whoa, it's gonna be politic- are we gonna talk about politics?
Daryl: No, no, no.
DarthSylar: Is it- because there's no politics in comics.
Daryl: No, no.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, no.
Daryl: No, none whatsoever.
Brev Work Computer: Never.
Daryl: no But just a few pages in, we start to see that pattern, and every crime that's reported on the news is attributed to the mutants gang.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: So did they really do all of that, or were they a great headline-grabbing scapegoat?
DarthSylar: Now that's an interesting perspective.
Brev Work Computer: I don't know.
DarthSylar: it like It could be that they've been scapegoated, but they're also taking in advantage of the fact that the mutant gang themselves are taking advantage of the fear that they are generated from the media.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. I mean, yes. And that's, that's the hard part, right? Is because they get street cred for doing crimes that they didn't do then. But they still get the credit for it.
Brev Work Computer: So it's like, yeah, we look like we're better than that, even though we know we didn't do it.
DarthSylar: and it we make it makes it It creates more fear and more disdain.
Brev Work Computer: Right.
DarthSylar: It creates more individuals are like, the mutants are stronger than they are which makes everything else, the police look weaker and the populace more afraid.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly.
Daryl: And on top of that too, it' it's not so much that the media is necessarily wanting to, that this is the bad a bad way of putting it, but it's not necessarily that they're wanting to blame the mutants and just hang every crime on the mutants, but if they don't know who did it and it kind of fits the pattern, the mutants you the mutants are cliques in today's parlance.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Yep.
Daryl: if If we say the mutants did it, then that's going to grab attention and that's going to make people watch and they'll tune into the news again tomorrow night Because they're going to want to find out what the mutants did now.
DarthSylar: And again, onto the fact that Frank Miller is already clicking onto the fact that What is truth in media today?
DarthSylar: ah It bleeds, it leads. a A mutant attack or an attack that can be attributed to to the mutants is a major storyline, but that would cause more fear, which would empower the mutants and cause more people to be afraid and blame the mutants in a secular cycle.
Daryl: Well, and I mean, we've We've seen that kind of thing too. All three of us are role-playing gamers. And you know think back to the satanic panic. What makes what makes a better headline?
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah.
Daryl: um you know D&D suicide or confused, sad, lonely person who did not know how to handle the hurdles that they were facing in life and also happens to play D&D commits suicide?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Yeah, one's a lot one's a lot easier to sell in it. And it you can. yeah well every news media outlet likes to, likes to pin something on an easy sell.
DarthSylar: It has nothing and there's nothing to do with us sacrificing individuals to Bethlehem it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, nothing.
Daryl: Yes. ah Brev right now behind Nick's house is a great big trench being dug as construction is going on on a golf course. And ah you one of our players last weekend angered Nick and Nick killed him and threw the body in the trench.
Brev Work Computer: You know, I have often thought that that is what happened to Jimmy Hoffa, right?
DarthSylar: You say that.
Brev Work Computer: That he is buried somewhere in under some building in and a whole bunch of concrete.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: believe I believe it's in Chicago. Most people say it's in Detroit.
Brev Work Computer: You love Chicago, so you keep mentioning It's like not the first time.
Daryl: He does.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: He does.
DarthSylar: I've been there. It's really nice.
Daryl: ah but He did not go to the South Side.
DarthSylar: Not just for hiding Jimmy Hoffa's body.
Brev Work Computer: They bring...
Brev Work Computer: They bring a knife, you bring a gun. That's the Chicago way. yeah
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: So ah one thing that I noticed too, and ah this is one of those things that you i I am glad that I'm revisiting this because when this first came out and I read it, it was mostly just, oh this is awesome.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And as I've read it again periodically over the years, it's like, yeah, this is this still holds up. This still holds up. And reading it this time, planning to talk about it with the two of you, I'm like, oh, I'm noticing little bits that I hadn't even thought about before because I was just along for the ride.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: ah that There's some brilliant storytelling.
Daryl: i i I wasn't in analysis hat all.
DarthSylar: There is some brilliant storytelling in there. There's no reason that you can't have like the pulpy fun of enjoying Batman doing cool stuff.
Daryl: as as a As a certain writer who recently became known to be trash, ah who created an astounding supernatural book that led to the launch of Vertigo, ah once said you he he was planning on writing a Batman story.
DarthSylar: uh
Daryl: And he's like, it it doesn't have philosophical underpinnings. It doesn't have psychological underpinnings. It's just 40 pages of Batman jumping off of tall buildings and thumping the shit out of criminals.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: That's what he said about Dark Knight Returns?
Daryl: that That's what Neil Gaiman said about a story that he was working on.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, he was right. Okay.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Well, you know what? there's There's a moment when one needs to realize maybe I don't have a story worth telling and that's okay. You know?
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: But I'll say this.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: ah i'll i'll always be like People always seem to bring up this. like ah Mark Twain said that there's nothing that you can gain from this story of of ah the story of Huckleberry Finn.
DarthSylar: It's like, well, then why are we still talking about it, Mark?
Daryl: okay Well, like one of the things that I noticed for the first time is that early in the first issue, Bruce keeps referring to Batman as another person in his inner monologue.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: i think i Honestly, I feel that ah feel that this is the real like origin of like the idea that Batman and Bruce are separate entities.
Daryl: He's always he
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: So I've got this theory that I've been that i've been holding on to for years. I've said it many times. and I probably said it on this show. When it comes to the distinguished competition and their line of superheroes, I've often felt that that Batman is the real character.
Brev Work Computer: Bruce Wayne is, is the mask, right? Like, just like this day about Superman, you know, Clark is the mask and Superman is a real character.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: So that in, in, in to kill bill, but I've always, but then I've always thought that Marvel is the opposite. Like Spider-Man is what Peter Parker has to do, but he's really, it's really Peter.
Brev Work Computer: And that's that's the joy of it.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: is One is the the the idea of the power fantasy that i can anybody can be Superman or Batman or whatever it is.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It's actually anybody can be Spider-Man, but you all get the point. I'm going to it, but like but like the Marvel characters, it's more I'm thrown into this because I have to do it
DarthSylar: The idea is that Spider-Man is what Peter wants to be, responsible, capable, and ta capable of taking on all aspects of life, but he can't because he's Spider-Man.
DarthSylar: And there's Peter Parker, who must sacrifice his Peter Parker-ness to do these great things that he has a responsibility to do.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's just like, i think I think Steve Rogers would be more than i was just saw And I think this is shown beautifully in in the Avengers Endgame is he would love to put down the shield as long as somebody else is willing to take it.
Brev Work Computer: Somebody else that has to do it because I would love to let it go.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, like i feel I feel like as much as I do love their their interpretation of Iron Man and centering him in the MCU, their interpretation of Steve was great in that moment.
DarthSylar: and it is like He's a man who's fighting a fight that he's never wanted to fight.
Brev Work Computer: hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: But he had to fight it. And when he finally had that chance to...
Daryl: Because he doesn't like bullies.
Brev Work Computer: That's right.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: and
DarthSylar: And when he finally found a moment and found someone who can... fight after him, he was okay with letting that pass. And and more and I said more than just Sam, but but just in general, that there's a whole generation of people who are willing to fight.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Willing to pick up that shield.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: and you going And that's why I think where it comes to this, to this book here that we're talking about is that I feel that when we see Bruce in the beginning, like it's damn near suicidal when he's on that car, when he, when he's doing that, that race, like he's, I think he's trying to kill himself and he he chickens out last minute, but does he chicken out or does the Batman inside of him make him save himself?
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, he...
Daryl: ah yeah
DarthSylar: he
Brev Work Computer: So he becomes Batman again, because the story isn't about Bruce. It's about Batman. And like, and like Batman has now taken over the physical manifestation excuse me, the body of Bruce Wayne to become Batman again.
Brev Work Computer: And that is why the dark night returns. Cause it's not about Bruce anymore. This is Batman doing this shit to save his city.
DarthSylar: I mean, there is a lot to to that to the degree of that, especially when in the scene where he meets with Gordon for the first time.
Daryl: and yeah well And there's there's a a moment that Miller makes it absolutely clear visually and with a single line of Alfreds that that switch has been made.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: Because we we see that you know older Bruce has grown a mustache.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Brev Work Computer: yes
Daryl: And Bruce goes through about half of that first issue And, you know, he's got the mustache. And then after.
DarthSylar: It's a distinguished, like, full Caterpillar, man, mustache.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: it's It's a good one.
Daryl: And and then we we get to this the shot where he's on the steps leading down to the cave. And Alfred, you know comes down because the alarm has been tripped by it and asks him, what happened to your mustache? And he reaches up like he doesn't even remember shaving it.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. That's a good point, Daryl. Because Batman really can't have a mustache because it won't fit under the mask.
Daryl: Nope.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: it would be recognizable.
Daryl: Well, it would fit under the mask, but it would be more of a giveaway as to who he is.
Brev Work Computer: That's very true.
DarthSylar: It...
Brev Work Computer: It's very true.
DarthSylar: you yeah like it it's it's There's a true factor of, like... And honestly, initially, when I first read this, I thought it was, like, implying a supernatural element to the Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Interesting.
DarthSylar: Rather than...
Daryl: i never got that.
DarthSylar: But again, how does I was...
Daryl: Yeah,
DarthSylar: I'm saying that when I first read it. I was a kid.
Daryl: yeah.
DarthSylar: I was, like, like in my... like 10 or 11 when I first read it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, so let's talk about that. When did everybody first read it? You were 10 or 11.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: I was 16 when it came out.
Brev Work Computer: Right.
Brev Work Computer: So you bought it off the newsstands?
Daryl: Yep, I bought it off the racks. I bought it off the racks. I remember a long gap between 3 and 4.
DarthSylar: Did you get it with a newspaper for one of the newsies?
Daryl: Yes. And in in the gap in between in the gap in between 3 and 4 Frank Miller was at one of the local conventions, so I got one through three signed.
Brev Work Computer: Nice Christian Bale. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Nice. You still have those?
Daryl: I do. They're in on my bookshelf.
Brev Work Computer: Wonderful.
DarthSylar: Alright, where exactly are those?
Daryl: And.
Brev Work Computer: just
DarthSylar: that Let me put on my put on my gloves and my and my ah and my and my ski mask.
Daryl: that The cats will kill you.
Daryl: The guard cats will kill you.
Brev Work Computer: So I first, I first read it when so was, I was, I, we were in our second house, I guess third house.
DarthSylar: They'll succeed, probably.
Daryl: But.
Brev Work Computer: take I don't remember the first house. So we had just moved. So I was either in ninth or 10th grade. And my brother had met the, the, the cousin of a friend of his was a guy who had this massive comic book collection. His name was Gerald. And he had all these comics and trade paper. act He's a huge elf quest fan. He just loved elf questing, but, but like, um,
Brev Work Computer: He had this, the trade of the bat of the dark night returns. And so I borrowed that at the same time, my brother bought a whole bunch of Grendel comics, but like, uh, not, not Hunter Rose, but Christine.
Brev Work Computer: Oh shit. I can't remember re name.
Daryl: Christine Sparr.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. Christine's brother, that whole run. And so I read those, like, i want to say and in either one night or over a week or something like that. And so like, that was just like crazy. crazy shit going on but like i remember reading this at that at that age and i just i thought it was really great i thought it was really i like wow this is really good i had a good time could see where the 89 movie got it's got it got a lot of its uh inspiration from and then ah god like what after college the wizard magazine i think released its 100 greatest graphic novels of all time and this was number three
Brev Work Computer: Number one was mouse. Okay. Number two was Watchmen, as you would expect. This was number three.
DarthSylar: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: um And I was like, you know, it was really good, wasn't it? So I went back and reread it. I was like yeah, this is really good. And then like few years ago, I read it again. And Daryl had the same moment when I was like, as I say all the time on the movie defenders is, is that there's, there's a moment when you realize that you, the art hasn't changed, but you have, and now how you see the art, how you interpret this movie in these scenes hits totally different than it did before.
Brev Work Computer: Like for example, you know, you watch terms of endearment as a kid, for some odd reason, you're like, Oh, this is really good. really sad. Now that you're a parent and it's about one of those parents dying of cancer and the two little kids are going to be survived their mom like that.
Brev Work Computer: It's like, Jesus Christ. This is a much more intense movie than I thought it was.
Daryl: Bye. but
DarthSylar: Again, like, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Going into this, i was like, oh, this is the twist that, like, ah the Batman is, like like, a spirit, a ghost. is's like It's not. It's more psycho... Because I didn't know, like, the psychological terms or tones that they were going for.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
DarthSylar: it's like, you you could, like, that's how I interpreted it as a kid. I recognized that, like, something was different between when Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne and when Batman is Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And then you got an interesting set of rogues gal.
Daryl: Yeah, because...
Brev Work Computer: Oh, sorry, Daryl. I was gonna.
Daryl: Oh, no, I was just going to say, and that inner monologue changes that, you it's... That inner monologue is all Batman after that moment.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm. Yes.
DarthSylar: Again, like, again,
Daryl: It's all Batman.
DarthSylar: Even if you so even like as a kid, I didn't recognize like the psychological cues, I recognized that like now this is a different character doing this right now.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, as a kid, I remember not catching any of that. I just thought it was a cool adventure story and it was really neat.
Daryl: Yes. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And I was like, this is this is cool. And it was, you know, scenes like we were going to talk about it, I'm sure, but the twist with Two-Face and then the fate of the Joker and then Selina Kyle.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: ah baby Well, maybe it's because also
Brev Work Computer: I was like, this is really adult.
DarthSylar: Well maybe because at this point I had like done like the read like ah the Spider-Man and symbiote stuff so I was okay with like okay when when when the when the voice changes in the text box that's a different guy.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. I remember not catching that. So astute on you, sir. Well done. Yeah. So the first issue is what dark night, what's it called? Dark night returns.
Daryl: The first one's The Dark Knight Returns.
Brev Work Computer: Okay. Yeah.
DarthSylar: ah hu
Daryl: They adopted that as the name of the whole thing when when they collected it.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: So where does this rate on your, on your Batman stories, which one's better this one or the dark night rises the movie.
Daryl: And and i
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: i guess' Okay.
Daryl: I... I would say this...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Um, just because as a whole, it holds together and it rises, owes a bit to this. It rises, rises, rises, owes even more to Nightfall and No Man's Land.
Brev Work Computer: You think?
DarthSylar: It does.
Brev Work Computer: if
DarthSylar: it does indeed. Indeed.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Yep.
Daryl: But, uh,
DarthSylar: and the
Brev Work Computer: It's the same argument I have made several times to my one of my wonderful co-hosts. And and I said, I know that you like these and they're good. They're good. When it comes to like this, and I can even defend X-Men The Last Stand. But I said, the problem is, is these are very distinct stories that they're trying to mesh into one story.
Brev Work Computer: And, ah and there's a reason why audiences have trouble with that is because you have all these diametrically opposed things and different thread lines that should be given their own space to breathe that don't aren't given their own space to breathe.
Brev Work Computer: And so, and you're trying to cram it all into a movie, the two, two and a half hours.
DarthSylar: Like, a and give you can give credit where credit is due to Christopher Nolan for putting it together.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Like, honestly, like, I don't think, if you put it on paper, that movie's a mess on paper.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: its But it's like credit to like the the actors, and especially under the direction of Christopher Nolan, that The Dark Died Rises even works.
Brev Work Computer: Correct. Yeah, I 100%.
DarthSylar: I'll say it's the weakest of the trilogy, but also it's...
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: for what it For what it's trying to do, only he could have put it together how he did.
Brev Work Computer: it It should be total shit. It should be total shit. And he he pulls it off.
DarthSylar: it' sort of it sort of it's It should have been the Spider-Man 3 of the Nolan trilogy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: or the X-Men The Last Stand or something like that where you go like okay we've really lost it here yeah
Daryl: ah
DarthSylar: Do... Too much going on all at the same time. And there's tons of plot holes, like literal plot holes.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
DarthSylar: But it's like, it's only disgrace of his directing style and him commanding an amazing cast.
Brev Work Computer: And and the end the end hits the emotional beat that it needs to. It land it hits the landing where where it's supposed to hit, and it does a great job of pulling it all together from an emotional standpoint, and that is the feeling you get when you walk out of the movie.
DarthSylar: Again, I had just a crescendo on that.
Brev Work Computer: But yeah.
DarthSylar: I did the did the... I spent some money and went with a group of friends, and we spent from 4 p.m. to 3 a.m.
DarthSylar: in the morning watching all on premiere night.
Brev Work Computer: Love it. i that I couldn't do it now, but I would have been able to do it when they came out.
DarthSylar: Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: In a marathon, like you only got like 10 minutes minutes for a restroom break and a ref referral on pump and free on Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Before we move on from Nolan, one thing that I did make a note of that I wanted to ask you guys about. So in in this first issue, when they've got the whole Two-Face story going on.
Brev Work Computer: Mm
Daryl: Bruce is being interviewed on the news and and Bruce has been a supporter of Harvey's rehabilitation and has financed it and he says, we must believe in Harvey Dent.
Brev Work Computer: hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: i Is it a coincidence?
Brev Work Computer: No, no, absolutely.
DarthSylar: No.
Brev Work Computer: It is not. I, if if Christopher Nolan was standing in my room right here, right now and hand on his by hand on the Bible saying, I swear to God, I never read the dark night returns before I made the Batman trilogy.
Brev Work Computer: I would not believe him or even during the Batman trilogy. I would, our dark night trilogy.
DarthSylar: neither the Neither of his writers, like i believe that which he worked heavily with on on these projects,
Brev Work Computer: No, wouldn't believe Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: ah because he cause hes Because he's tight with all of his crew.
Brev Work Computer: There's no way.
DarthSylar: like he He keeps his actors in a pool.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: He keeps his writers in a pool. so like the if If not him, his writers informed him, like, here's some stuff from The Dark Knight Returns that is what we're putting in here. like he The whole idea of like the nature of like the city and, like, heck, there's entire sequences pulled right from this in The Dark Knight, right?
Brev Work Computer: His fucking younger brother helped write this, the trilogy.
DarthSylar: Right, and specifically.
Brev Work Computer: mean, like, I mean, like the fam, the family made his wife produced him.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, no, no, no, no.
Daryl: okay
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I don't. I, yeah, no.
DarthSylar: The whole sequence where where the older cop says, played by Patton Oswalt, says, like, you're in for it, so tonight, kid, is told directly from to that younger cop shooting at Batman, directly from it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah. with
Daryl: Yeah. yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yes. So the first issue, right? We got the car crash, Gordon and and and Wayne. We get the whole storyline with Harvey, right? on the His rehabilitation, quote unquote, right? I remember thinking as a kid, that was really fucking cool, that that twist.
Brev Work Computer: That har Harvey was really still two-faced, even though his face was fixed.
DarthSylar: Honestly, that's
Brev Work Computer: In fact, he was putting bandages on his face, yeah.
DarthSylar: when I really realized how tragic Two-Face was.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm. It wasn't because it wasn't it wasn't weird or it was weird, but it wasn't like comically funny. It was. Oh, that's really sad.
DarthSylar: It's like, he he's that mentally broken that even though the physical part has been fixed, you can't fix the the the part of himself.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: That's broken inside. And it's tragic.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: And i got
Daryl: he's He's too far gone.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: and it it also showed, like, a lot of people misconstrue this as a more brutal Batman. it's like But that moment was gentle. was, like, tragic.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. He did everything he could to save his friend, not realizing his friend was already gone.
DarthSylar: And even though he he did stop him, but is like he realizes stopping him is just putting him back into into an institution where he's still going to suffer.
Daryl: Yep.
Daryl: And Young Stupid Me, the first my first read-through, read it a couple of times... after the whole thing had come out, finally. Young Stupid Me didn't quite get you know that that sequence when you Batman's confronting him and and the bandages come off and you see the perfectly restored Harvey face for two panels and the narration saying, you and then I really saw him and his full face is disfigured.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And then back to the pristine Harvey face, i was like, what?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, i had I had the same thing. I was like, wait, did he did he shift? Did he shape? Is he like Mystique now? Did he shape shift? Yeah, no. Yeah. And then in Batman, of course, sees the bat in the reflection when he looks at Harvey.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, of course, he's like, you're broken and so am I.
Daryl: And that that's imagery that has carried over to other media too.
Brev Work Computer: Fuck yeah.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: Especially the two Schumacher movies with the giant bat in in the cave.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: Honestly, just the Bat being so prominent itself, I think is something that this really emphasized on. on for the franchise in the visual like because again this is more than just a comic book it's like a redefinition of the character to audiences so I feel like the idea that the the large bat being like a major like sort of motif has sort of come from that
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Could you imagine being the editor in chief of DC comics and some young upstart comes you and goes, I've got an idea. And you go like, what is this?
Daryl: ah yeah
Brev Work Computer: Like, uh, it's just, um, it's like, wow. Okay. Well, uh, and you want to do 44 pages and you want, think it was originally like supposed to be like three issues. Right. they kicked out the four.
DarthSylar: Yeah, was supposed to be three issues.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And like, and you want to charge how much for it? You think anyone's going to buy this and more gross. This was right. So
Daryl: hold Well, one thing that I was...
DarthSylar: Also, he was coming off of off off of his daredevil Wolverine and stuff.
Brev Work Computer: that's true.
DarthSylar: like he like he became like Again, like I can only imagine what that meeting room was, but like like Frank Miller was rolling in on like the largest bunch of goodwill that possible he could have.
Daryl: Well, I can attest at that local con that I was talking about, it was I had been to a few cons before that.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: So that would have been, if it was after the third issue, it would have been the latter part of 86. And I had been to about three or four of that same local con in that time.
Daryl: And that was the first time I recall seeing a comics creator get a reaction like a rock star.
Brev Work Computer: Mm
Daryl: from the attendees. And, know, before it had been like, oh, late, hey, yeah, you know, here's Chris Claremont, here's you, Dan Juergens, here's this person, here's, and they they were lined up at tables outside of the exhibit hall.
Daryl: And, you know, you could just walk up to them, nobody had a line. Miller had a line. It was the first time I saw anyone with a line. And the audit, the, attendees were just reacting to him, like I say, like a rock star.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. He's the first one that I know about that was that one. And, you know Neil Gaiman became one and Rob Liefeld, obviously Jim Lee, Tom and Farland, all those guys became rock stars, but like, he's a kind of strange dude.
DarthSylar: Alan Moore, but he's kind of like the... Well, he's a strange dude, but he was like he was he was also that kind of...
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: He was that kind of strange, esoteric rock star.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was almost more like punk rock or goth rock or something, but yeah, I see what you're saying. Like, but like,
DarthSylar: they they da down That was when they were really becoming like personality artists in and of themselves.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. That's a good point. they they they are Their persona was starting to grow past just nameless, faceless writer, artist into this is our tour. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Like, when i when I hear the word, when I hear like, Gail Simone's going to work on a piece.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's like, I know who she is, and I'm like, okay, I'm interested.
Brev Work Computer: Sure.
DarthSylar: It's less her work, it's her reputation that I'm now like...
Brev Work Computer: Sure. Sure. By the way, did you all pick up um this new Daredevil number one, Stephanie Phillips?
DarthSylar: heard some good things about it.
Daryl: I have not, no.
Brev Work Computer: i liked it. But you know what? um' i i have I loved ah Stephanie Phillips' work on Phoenix. I loved the the first arc. The second arc, you could tell that the book was getting canceled, so the second arc doesn't isn't as good. kind of ends abruptly. I loved that. um
DarthSylar: There's some blogs that I followed if were that gave a pretty good review of that first issue, so I'm be interested interested to see what it is.
Brev Work Computer: And I liked Planet...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And I, and I liked Planet She-Hulk. I thought it was a fun six issues. I was, I was in, I was like, I want more.
DarthSylar: Oh, yeah!
Brev Work Computer: And I read this first,
DarthSylar: Oh, Plants. I think I read like the first couple issues of Plants, E. Colt.
Brev Work Computer: It's good.
DarthSylar: That was fun.
Brev Work Computer: it's It's entertaining. And then and i really I picked up this first Daredevil because I did not care for the Saladin Ahmed run, even though I stuck around for 19 issues. I was like, why am I doing this? I do not like this run. I just kept buying it, hoping it would get...
Daryl: Why am doing this to myself?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, so can it get better? Can it get better? Can it get better? And the answer is no. 18 more times, it was still no. It's like me asking my wife. Never mind. But like this this one, I read this first issue and i was like,
Brev Work Computer: I think I liked it. And then reread it again today. I was like, no, I, this is really good. She's got, she's got a voice the, uh, here that she wants to tell and we'll see what happens. So I'm in. Um, but yeah, you're just talking about, yeah, I liked it.
Daryl: Well, now will have to give it a shot.
DarthSylar: That gives few blogs that i was following said hello
Daryl: Well, And, Brev, you mentioned of being 48 pages.
DarthSylar: that as well
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
Daryl: That was something else that I noticed that I wanted to bring up while I was rereading it. Yeah, 48 was twice the size of the average comic. But I noticed as I was reading these that every issue was
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Yeah.
Daryl: it in the best possible way of the term, really dense.
Brev Work Computer: yes
DarthSylar: Yep.
Daryl: it It was a good long read for each issue, whereas there are some contemporary comics that I dearly love, but I'm done with them in 10 minutes.
Brev Work Computer: Well, and like you want to get, we all come from the age where
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: You know, we read Claremont. We read, um you know, Wolfman. We read Alan Moore. You have text on the page and beautiful art. Now it's like they try to strip. They've taken cinema rules and transformed into comic books. And I'm like, but comic books and movies are different.
Brev Work Computer: Like, I love the interesting angles.
Daryl: They are different media.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I love different angles, but I want some text on the page to tell me.
DarthSylar: Yeah. i yeah
Brev Work Computer: what I need to know that I might not understand from what the artist is telling me. And also like, I also subscribe to the idea. Everybody's a comic is everybody's first comic. So you need to kind of have some of this narrative along the way.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Like I remember loving an X-Men uncanny X-Men one movie. 224 the start of think it's the issue before fall of the mutants or it's 223 anyway it's 224 maybe it's the first issue of fall the mutants there's this beautiful opening page with storm and she's standing there still powerless mohawk indian garb or it's like a native american garb the forge made for and there's this brilliant passage at the top that claremont harua had written about her and all this and like for anybody that doesn't know like go back and read that book that series if you think wolverine's the main character you're wrong it's storm read it again and you'll be But yeah, it's Storm. But like he has this massively wonderful text about her. And I'm like, yes, that's beautiful. I don't see that anymore. And I read the Dark Knight. I go back to the Dark Knight Returns. And like, yes, there's text on the page to read, to get into, to understand the characters and their mindset their thoughts and their dialogue and all sorts stuff in the setting that we're in. And beautiful art to go along with
Brev Work Computer: And I'm like, I pick up a book today and I'm like, so there's some attempts at quippy dialogue and some pretty pictures. I mean, the art's good, but I'm like, I but i just, there's nothing to read.
DarthSylar: I feel like the feel like the there's a there should be a connection between them. I do like the evolution of comics, and I do like the evolution of the art, but I do feel like the art sometimes needs is trying to do more lifting than it can do.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. yeah
DarthSylar: it's trying It's trying to convey action, emotion, etc., when...
Daryl: And
DarthSylar: that's not what the page can convey. There needs to be dialogue. I've also seen some pages that are like more dialogue than like what the action can convey.
DarthSylar: And it's like, well, you could have conveyed this with little bit more action than just like in the theater of the mind.
Daryl: we we could do, we could have you back and do an entire episode about it.
DarthSylar: It's a hard discussion.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Daryl: But what what it what it basically boils down to, to me is, well, there's a couple of things, and I will try to make them as brief as possible. And then we will come back and do a whole episode on it at some point.
Daryl: um they They've gotten rid of the every issue is someone's first philosophy. because they largely abandoned the business model of the primary audience being young readers who read for a few years then age up and cycle out to be replaced by others just like them lather rinse repeat and now long time older readers like us spoiler alert folks i i hate to crush your your illusions but we we were outliers
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Yep. yep
Daryl: and we And we understood that we were outliers. And the characters and situations wherever ever were so meant to be evergreen. And now we're the primary audience.
Daryl: And so we get stories that are not only sequels to, but extensive
DarthSylar: references to...
Daryl: encyclopedic knowledge of 40 old 40 year old stories are required to read this new if line wide event that is a sequel to a 40 year old story and the the format it's
DarthSylar: supposed to be picking up on like the the end result of that. ah that it's it It's built up to that and it's like we would get...
Daryl: and
DarthSylar: It's literally the extent of like you wouldn't get it, you weren't there.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And we the structure the story structure itself is now built upon the inevitability of collection in a trade paperback.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: So they're all six issue or 12 issue storylines, six issues being the ideal for collection in a trade paperback.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: And so there is no recap or exposition or anything as you go along for part three or part four to be someone's first issue of that series?
DarthSylar: And if they do remember to put that in, a good luck trying to figure out what they would what the the issue code is
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. with All the legacy stuff and all the other, don't even know anymore.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, no, those are all good points.
Daryl: So
Brev Work Computer: And so then I have a question for you guys. i I think, and there's always there's always a an exception to a rule, but I have often thought that when it comes to DC, DC does such a good job, and it's probably because they've got 20 years on Marvel. No, no, no, more than that. look What, 30 years on Marvel?
Brev Work Computer: Anyway, for the other characters.
DarthSylar: roughly.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. I've always felt that DC does a really good job of making standalone limited series that are so awesome and change the dynamic of the characters.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And it's like, if you read the dark night returns, you get that.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: If you read, Oh, whatever happened to the man of tomorrow, you get that.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Like you get certain things.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: You're like, Oh my God, this is so good. But like the long ongoing might not be as good. Whereas Marvel has the opposite problem. the ongoing but it you have to know you have to be in the know what happened but like the ongoing is so powerful but their mini series for the most part you're kind of like their events are sort of like eh but they but they're kind of they're they're not that great but they've leaned into that so much recently and especially with canceling at issue 10 or or six or whatever it is recently that they just keep doing and it's like it doesn't feel like it's continued
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: it continued um a story anymore but like but when i look at something like the one we're talking about when we get to talk when when we when we talk about it on this episode of this this book right here these four issues you know are just so freaking powerful but does it make me want to go read the batman long you know the ongoing series i don't i don't know because i'm like what is it going to be as good as this
Daryl: yeah
Daryl: So...
DarthSylar: it's it's It's basically the like the idea that we're reading a Batman story, and but we don't need to know, for the most part, previous Batman stories.
Daryl: so
Daryl: So be as the one who was there when it was on the shelves, he he he says as he gets his walker.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, do it. Do it. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: yeah got it He's got to see Alice for later.
DarthSylar: back back way back ah which which Which dinosaur were you on at this point?
Daryl: um
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: That's right.
Daryl: i was i was on a Metasaurus Rex.
Brev Work Computer: Nice.
Daryl: But so i was i was not reading Batman regularly at the time that Dark Knight Returns came out.
DarthSylar: That's not an actual dinosaur.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm.
Daryl: I don't remember if they announced year one immediately after it finished or or not, but it was the announcement of Miller doing year one that I said, okay, I'm going to start reading the Batman ongoing.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And year one started in at what, number 404, 405, something like that.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. It's
Daryl: i I went ahead and started with 400.
Brev Work Computer: good jumping on point. Yeah.
Daryl: Because i i knew i knew year one was coming. um Actually, ah there might have been... I don't remember if the Legends crossover was right before or right after year one.
Daryl: I think it was right before. So i was I knew I was going to be picking up all of the Legends crossovers. I knew year one was coming. So I started with Batman 400, which it didn't hurt that it had a gorgeous Bill Sienkiewicz cover and it had a few pages by George Perez.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: And ah yeah, I was just all in on all of that. So... Yes, Dark Knight indirectly made me start reading the Batman series.
Brev Work Computer: So, so you
Brev Work Computer: so for you, that's a case of like, Hey, I, I, yeah, I loved it so much. I'm jumping on, I'm jumping out. See, I want to see what's going on with this.
Daryl: Yeah, even though I knew Frank Miller was only going to be writing four issues of the regular book, I started picking up.
Brev Work Computer: Okay.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: Again, that goes back to what we were saying.
Daryl: picking it up
DarthSylar: like This is when like artists, like writers, and and artists were becoming like part of like the selling process. like you You want to see more of their work.
Daryl: And then, so...
DarthSylar: there's There's an interesting change to like the... Before, it was just like, oh, you're a fan of this, but you're like, I'm a fan of this guy, and I want to see how he writes this.
Daryl: Now, I don't know about the two of you as you were reading it for the first time, but so my expectation was kind of set by the first issue, oh, we're we've got future Batman and future Two-Face.
Daryl: So which which future Batman rogue are we going to see in the second issue in Dark Knight Triumphant? Answer, none of them.
DarthSylar: um with
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, well, they layer in Joker a little bit, but yeah, I remember thinking, hey, Joker's next, and then he's not next.
DarthSylar: yeah
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Okay, never mind.
DarthSylar: But I felt that they they did set up the mutants as like a threat pretty pretty solidly.
Daryl: they They did, but the the classic character that we got, for want of a better term, is we got the new Robin. We got Carrie Kelly.
Brev Work Computer: yeah Yeah, go on.
DarthSylar: Yes, and Carrie Kelly is a Interesting Robin, in my opinion. like I really like her, but...
Daryl: I really like her. And the dark night has cast such a long shadow over DC since 1986 over the bat books that every so often they, it's like in the mainstream books, they, they try to call back.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: They even introduced a canonical present day, Carrie Kelly in the bat books a few years ago.
DarthSylar: Yeah, wasn't it during New 52?
Daryl: She was Damien's babysitter.
Brev Work Computer: No, that's... No.
DarthSylar: No.
Brev Work Computer: now
DarthSylar: like i my I think, again, I just feel like she becomes Robin rather quickly, and I like that it kind of goes with Tim Drake and like ah like the original Batgirl and stuff like that, but it's like,
DarthSylar: She's really effective. it's like Again, not to complain about that, so I just wish we had a little bit more backstory into her going into it. But I understand it's four issues.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And I think she.
DarthSylar: But again, I love the character. it's like That's just my one critique of her.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I think she represent i mean to me, she kind of always represented this this idea that Batman's return or the Dark Knight return has starts starts to inspire people to do the right thing.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: What I like about her is that she's kind of a fuck up, you know, like I love that.
DarthSylar: yeah
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, seat see does see's she has a great deal of skill, but she's not trained.
Daryl: it
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, and she lacks the confidence to do it right.
DarthSylar: it is his potential She's
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: She's like dynamite. She's compact and powerful, but she's not able to activate properly.
Brev Work Computer: Right.
Daryl: Well, and that whole inspiration aspect, it's there in the text because, again, on the news, the psychiatrist who was responsible for harvey' Harvey's rehabilitation is a constant presence on the news, even after Harvey's out of the story, talking about the impact, the horrible impact that Batman is having on the public.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: And I feel, again, like that goes back to... Yeah.
Daryl: And you know the this will inspire people to do bad things. And as he's on the news saying this, we see Carrie suiting up in her in her mu Robin costume that she bought for the first time.
Daryl: And she is being inspired by Batman to do the right thing.
DarthSylar: Can I do...
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: I wanted to bring that up because again, like the idea of like TV psychiatrists and also railing against like bad influences in the media, causing causing individuals to act out. It's very much sort of hits back onto that to the controversy, speaking of the fact that this is around the time of like the satanic panic and the D&D.
DarthSylar: the being bad for everyone is like, it goes back to like the corruption of the in, the seduction of the innocent book that nearly killed comics back in the day.
Daryl: i I made a note towards that, referencing that specifically somewhere, and I can't find it. But there was something that I was like, is is this a Wortham reference? And now I can't find my note that I made on it. Oh, well.
DarthSylar: But this is that sort of what it's this kind of is sort of hearkening back to. is like it's sort its but like it's It's influencing the youth, causing them to act out and and not act right.
Brev Work Computer: which is what they do, but they take the power back to, not to quote, Rage Against the Machine, which I just did, and they're inspired by a mythical figure that's better, that that that can say, that can do something.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: Oh, no, no, no.
Brev Work Computer: Because she would have been like a kid, right? Four years old or something like that, because it's been 10 years since the Batman sightings.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: So she she would have been a little kid.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And so shes he's always been just...
Daryl: She would have been three because he specifically says she's 13 at one point.
Brev Work Computer: Okay.
DarthSylar: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Okay. Yeah. I knew she was young. And so it's a case of like, for her, she doesn't remember a time when he was there. And so for her, it's this story of like, Oh, this, this mythical hero and what, what can she do?
DarthSylar: It's come back when they need him. is like
Brev Work Computer: Exactly. Yeah.
DarthSylar: And again, like he had the mythical sign kick that also helped him.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And it's like, so he can be that. is like and Going back to what you said, like this is very punk rock. Batman's punk rock.
Brev Work Computer: And then I love, I know we're kind bouncing around a little bit, but I love the fact that, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily Jason Todd's costume, but I love the, i it might be, but I love the um implication that Jason Todd was murdered.
Brev Work Computer: Like you see his costume enshrined and a couple of years later, it's death in the family.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: So I thought that was really great.
Daryl: Yep. Yep. And new yeah, i mean part of me wonders how many of the people who who voted in that, who voted for him to die were like, well, he has to because Dark
Brev Work Computer: Predictive. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, which is just crazy. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, yeah. Little did they know. Alright, so then in issue two, we get Carrie.
Daryl: have you seen have you seen DC has put out an ad that you can call an 800 number to apologize for killing Jason.
Brev Work Computer: Nice. No, I have not seen.
Daryl: it's It's got it. It's got a picture of Jason as Red Hood holding the crowbar. And it says this, this Robin died because, you know, 7,000 of you called to kill him.
Brev Work Computer: oh my god.
Daryl: You can.
Brev Work Computer: Nice.
Daryl: ah Oh, I just saw that today.
DarthSylar: Hey, Superboy Prime can't take back that punch against the wall of reality.
Daryl: Sorry.
Brev Work Computer: Nice.
Daryl: Sorry, Brev, I cut you off. What were you about to say?
Brev Work Computer: No, I was going to say like, and so in issue two, right, you were just alluding to Daryl.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Like you think, okay, who's going be the rogues gallery next? And it's not, it's more than it's the mutants that show up, right?
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: That's the main, the main driver of the, of the, uh, the antagonist there.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: But I think it's, as but it's important that they, he now fights the underbelly of the city.
DarthSylar: A modern villain.
Brev Work Computer: Right.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: A modern villain, a new evil that's cropped up from the underbelly.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And I will say this as I was rereading this issue. It had been so long since I had read the whole thing again. How much of my memory of the sequence of events was colored by the Dark Knight mini adaptation segment of that one episode of Batman the Animated Series?
DarthSylar: um the but From BTAS. yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: Because i I forgot that he had two fights with the mutant leader.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daryl: Because that segment kind of combined them into one.
DarthSylar: The
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: the more accurate version of that is from the from the more recent two-part Batman and Dark Knight Returns part one and two animated films.
DarthSylar: They do properly do it into two parts, the fight.
Daryl: Yeah, but you know Michael Ironside is the Dark Knight version of Batman? Come on.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, that's cool. and it If we're going to talk about this sequence, we're going talk about the Batmobile.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: and We'll talk about it, Nick.
Daryl: Go.
DarthSylar: it's It's beautiful.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: Honestly, it's
DarthSylar: it fully turns this from Batman in the future into Batman and Cyberpunk.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: the The articulated... Elating face plate that looks like a bat that has its firing rubber bullet bullets and fireworks.
Daryl: Honest.
DarthSylar: The massiveness of the tank. The the way it's crossing fruit through the junkyard and Carrie Kelly parkouring her way around it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. It's so cool.
Daryl: Yeah, that that is definitely, even more than the second fight with the leader, this is the one that, that or that that was the second one, wasn't it?
Brev Work Computer: it
DarthSylar: It's... Yeah, that's the first one.
Brev Work Computer: No, that's the first one.
Daryl: Yeah, so, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It's the first one. He shows up because Batman's kind of arrogant about it He's bringing like, he brings his Batmobile and then he hops out of the Batmobile.
Daryl: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And I remember reading it going like this.
DarthSylar: because Because he's confronted, and so it like, even though he has him right in the sights, and it's it's iconic because the Batmobile tank is like towering over the mutant leader, it even like, it again, since it has an articulating faceplate, it sort of looks like it's glaring down at him.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: And...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: But Batman has to be like, I have to know if I can still fight.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. And he gets his ass kicked and Carrie, Carrie, Carrie kind of saves him.
DarthSylar: He gets it. is
Brev Work Computer: He saves her sort of thing, which she's able to get his body back to the back game or at least into the the Batmobile. Right. And then takes him back to the back.
DarthSylar: And it takes it back to the cave.
Brev Work Computer: de Yeah.
DarthSylar: and is's like
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: but it's it's it's It's a humbling moment, but it's like that whole initial sequence is like so cool.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's gord it's gorgeous.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: it's it's both It's both gorgeous and sad because you're like, as a reader going, oh he's going to whip this guy's. No, he's not. He gets his ass kicked.
DarthSylar: it's It's literally like it's literally he him, as the kids say, or farming on the way in, and then, oh no, he e e he he really was too rocky.
Brev Work Computer: at least
Daryl: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah. And for the first time in this story, we're like, and granted, it's only the second of four issues. But for the first time in this story, we're thinking, oh,
Daryl: He might not make it out of this story alive.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it puts it puts death in a real as a real ah thing like it's ah it's a shadow over it now.
DarthSylar: I feel what helps is help sell that is Carrie Kelly, because he's again he's inspired by this mythic legend that has returned.
Brev Work Computer: hmm.
DarthSylar: And watch him emerge with this massive behemoth of a vehicle and stand tall against the mutant leader, the this big bad of the city right now.
Daryl: And come out of the Batmobile in one of the most iconic shots of the entire miniseries.
DarthSylar: And they get his...
Brev Work Computer: and the Of of a Batman, period.
DarthSylar: And they get the snot beat out of him.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: Right in front of her. But it sort of proves the the importance of Robin.
Brev Work Computer: Hmm.
DarthSylar: That they take them out of the situation.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: That they're able to like... Her her her resolve isn't broken.
DarthSylar: She recognizes Robin's purpose is to help Batman, even if it means helping him limp back to the cave.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are they are a dynamic duo.
Daryl: And now that I'm.
DarthSylar: Because again, like in in any other story, her seeing that would be like, oh my hero has been destroyed. she's like, I have to help them.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Like and instead of it, cause she could easily then put down her own cape and whatever and said, I guess I backed the wrong horse, but instead you see the heroic nature of Carrie in that moment where she goes to, to fight the mutant leader.
Daryl: And.
Brev Work Computer: And then basically bats throws a whatever smoke grenade in his face and whatever.
DarthSylar: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: and she manages to get him, but like, she stands up for him when he needs it the most, which shows her level of her her heroism as well, which is a great moment for her as a character.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah. And getting back when they get back to the cave, um thinking back, is Miller the one who introduced snarky Alfred?
DarthSylar: I think so.
Brev Work Computer: I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know for sure, but I,
DarthSylar: yeah I can't guarantee that, but definitely it it's the most fitting of snarky Alfred, because like this is an Alfred who basically didn't want Bruce to do this, and is like, I don't want to do this anymore, Master Bruce.
Daryl: I don't.
Daryl: Yeah, I think he might be the one who introduced Snarky Alfred.
Brev Work Computer: You could be right.
Daryl: which which
Brev Work Computer: It would not surprise me.
Daryl: Which is a wonderful addition to Alfred's character.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: Oh, it's it's it's again like there's a lot of things that are quintessential Batman that come from this.
Daryl: Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. And um
Daryl: I just spaced on what I was about to say, so you guys riff.
Brev Work Computer: yeah Well, and then the and we get to see the the the real quick interlude at the White House. And we get to see that you know it's ah heavily implied that Superman is working for the government, the United States government, which is...
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: And I'm going to borrow this from somebody else that said it on a YouTube. and It's not original bread, but I loved this. It was like somewhere along the way, Clark who lost truth and justice and just went with the American way.
DarthSylar: that's ah That's a good way of saying that.
Daryl: Oh, I do like that.
DarthSylar: ah is it good Also, um to to quote one of my friends when and I first words when i so first showed had them read, I gave them it as a Christmas gift, they said, like, why does Ronald Reagan look like a zombie in this?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's like, so that that's just route as this was Ronald Reagan.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Ain't giving no kidding. Right. He was at one point in time, the oldest elected president at one point in time.
Daryl: Oh, yoga yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Then we just had to, well and then we had to elect two other old guys.
Daryl: At one point in time.
Brev Work Computer: Anyway, we're not talking politics.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: oh But yeah, no.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: So, and then they get back to the Batcave and then, you know, she helps him.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: And then really the rest of this issue is focused on him kind of almost dark night rises sort of thing, which is by brothers later is like, she's learning about her role and then he's getting back to health so that he can then go take on the the mutant leader again.
DarthSylar: And again, he's coming out of a plan. he's like He tried brute forcing it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: he's like he can't prove it's It's very much like like a like in the Rocky Balboa movie where he was older.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: was like he can't He can't keep up with the young blood in a fight. He needs to be smart.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: You know, I will say the Rocky franchise has a lot of highs and lows, I think, but I really liked the movie Rocky Balboa.
Daryl: And so...
Brev Work Computer: I thought that was it.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah, its it's it's honestly one of my favorites.
Brev Work Computer: It's, it's a, it's a top for me and I'm not the very top, but it's one of them.
DarthSylar: Because it again like it's it's very much like that that whole line is like, he's faster than you, just as strong as you see.
Brev Work Computer: So yeah.
DarthSylar: You gotta pack every punch into that. You got i'll think you i gotta to be ready to punch him with some hurting bombs.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: like that That whole sequence of training was really good.
Brev Work Computer: So there's, this is great. There's a panel and I don't know which, I don't know which page it's on.
DarthSylar: it really it really It really puts it in for this one, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. I it's, it's as it's as Carrie is, is infiltrating the Cyclops gang. As I remember thinking when they were, when I was a kid, the mutants site with their little Cyclops type visors on the yellow and red.
DarthSylar: And again, they I do love how they are very clockwork Aurons, like ah they're slaying...
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: There is this panel right in there.
DarthSylar: slicing dice!
Brev Work Computer: And if you guys have the the book in front of you, it's it's when you see the bat symbol again on that big, dark building. It's in silhouetted.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah!
Daryl: On the tower.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And you see the, I love, love that.
DarthSylar: On the tower!
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: think that image is so cool. i I'm a sucker for the bat symbol though. I mean, I love, I love seeing it in the sky. It's so awesome.
DarthSylar: it's
Daryl: they
DarthSylar: Whenever it's done, and i love whenever it's done unique ways. Like like we brought back up we brought up the Dark Knight Rises. like when it was When it was burning on the bridge, at that moment, like in a movie that had so little hope at that moment, it's like, like that like it literally it was like my whole theater was like, YES!
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yes. yes
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: i don't know which copy of the trade paperback either of you has or had, but that shot was so iconic that they did a very, a painted variation of that as the cover for the first trade paperback.
DarthSylar: Oh, that's cool!
Brev Work Computer: Yes, and it has Batman behind it and the bat symbol is shining.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: it So I saw that as a t-shirt in 89 and I begged my parents to buy it for me and they wouldn't because it was like really expensive.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: I don't have that one.
Brev Work Computer: So I never got that t-shirt. I've always wanted it as a poster though, like to hang in my house be like, that is one of my favorite Batman movies.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And you never talk to them ever again.
Brev Work Computer: Um, there's a long story, Nick, but I'll give you the real, real short one where, um, I was handed a $500 check for, for college graduation by my mother. And then my father said, Hey, don't cash that yet because, um, you know, there's not not enough money in the account. And so I waited two months and then I said, going to cash it. And my mother said, well, no, you can't because we already, we already bought you health insurance for that money.
Brev Work Computer: I'm like, I didn't ask for health insurance. Like, well, we needed it. So we bought it for you. And that, that $500 is gone. So I've always remembered that moment. I'm not petty, but or vindictive.
Brev Work Computer: I just remember things. so Oh.
Daryl: Well, Nick, that trade paperback copy is the one that I have. i've i have I have bought this story three times. I bought the individual issues.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: I have that trade paperback.
DarthSylar: All right, putting back on on on the on the on the the ski mask.
Daryl: And and what when they released that ice when when they released that nice at the time, complete Frank Miller Batman that had year one, wanted Santa Claus dead and alive and Dark Knight Returns.
DarthSylar: I just need oven gloves to defeat the cats.
Daryl: I got that. Which that that was this that was only like 20 bucks.
Brev Work Computer: yeah that's incredible
Daryl: So. So i those are the three that I have.
DarthSylar: So we're breaking into Daryl's house when?
Brev Work Computer: yeah yeah yeah we don't have a good alibi though because there's a recording of us talking about larceny but that's okay yeah would they certainly would it would be a slow painful death yes
Daryl: Yes. Yes. ah And the cats really would kill Brev.
Daryl: ah Allergies.
Brev Work Computer: So then he goes back to the mutants, right? After Carrie's kind of infiltrated them for him.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And then he systematically.
DarthSylar: so set up a ah ah fight and This is some iconic Batman lines.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. This is so good.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: You don't get it, boy.
Daryl: Yeah. i
Brev Work Computer: This isn't a mud hole. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon. Fucking awesome.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: ah
DarthSylar: And it's like, oh, that again, that goes that goes back to to the Batman The Animated Series condensing of it, and it's
Daryl: ah I would. would So.
DarthSylar: It's so good, that line delivery.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm. And I love at the end of the fight, would you would you look at the the media reaction, all this?
Daryl: ah yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I can't help but wonder there's this white guy in a suit. He's got red hair and glasses, sunglasses. I'm like, is that Matt Murdoch?
Daryl: ah
DarthSylar: I think that... the No, yeah, there I think...
Daryl: It was, it might have been intended to be.
DarthSylar: i think
Daryl: and
Brev Work Computer: I'm I'm very sure that that's that's that's Miller's nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
DarthSylar: But wait, then how could he watch the media?
Daryl: Yeah,
Brev Work Computer: you Well, okay. yeah but How did he watch television?
Daryl: yeah.
Brev Work Computer: yeah Yes. And then we move into issue three where you got swastika boobs.
Daryl: I mean, I, yep.
Brev Work Computer: So, yeah.
DarthSylar: Oh, yeah.
Daryl: Yep, and
DarthSylar: I love i love how we did that that that's the first thing that we meant.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
DarthSylar: I mean, it's kind of hard to...
Brev Work Computer: this is This is the moment where if you're if you're reading this backwards, right? you're reading miller's Frank Miller's like comic bibliography or whatever you call it. So you've already read some Sin City or you're aware of Sin City and you know enough about it. You see this and you're like, of course.
Brev Work Computer: Of course, because that's this Scream Sin City, which you'll make later.
Daryl: Yes.
DarthSylar: But this was like this was a beforehand, so it was a bit...
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Yes.
DarthSylar: Like... That's a choice.
Daryl: Oh yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: I remember 16 year old me opening up that issue and seeing that and I was like, I don't know what to make of this. ah This is an ADC comic.
Brev Work Computer: I'm... Yeah. Yeah,
DarthSylar: to 10 year old me was like, I have very conflicting feelings about this.
Brev Work Computer: it's...
Brev Work Computer: that
DarthSylar: Because also, I was an avid...
Daryl: But the,
DarthSylar: every learner about like everything in World War II, so I was like, I have no idea how I feel about any of this right now.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. Yeah, it was definitely a moment. I forget the, is it the night Porter? Um, that neo-Nazi movie where the, where the Jewish woman dresses up in, uh, she's basically a slave to an ex Nazi.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And she dresses up in Nazi garb to seduce him and all that sort of stuff. It's got that feel going on where you're like, Ooh, I'm, this is, this is definitely evocative.
Brev Work Computer: I mean, like I'm, I'm getting something here.
DarthSylar: I am feeling like...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And I think it's supposed to be conflicting emotions. I still feel conflicting emotions.
Brev Work Computer: I still have a problem.
DarthSylar: But they're different now than then.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: But still, it's like... I'm not entirely certain what I'm supposed to be getting from this.
Brev Work Computer: and Doesn't she have like swastika on each ass cheek as well?
DarthSylar: But I'm certainly...
Brev Work Computer: Is that right?
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. I mean.
DarthSylar: Yes.
Daryl: Yes, because because she has like assless chaps on or something.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Right.
DarthSylar: And it's like...
Brev Work Computer: Right.
DarthSylar: It's like... I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to... We've been spending lot time analyzing analyzing like a lot of like the the story and motifs here. This one, I'm still like not sure what I'm supposed to be getting for here.
Brev Work Computer: that the world has gone crazy and Bats is there to stop it and then you get this great iconic image of him and and a Batman and Carrie or Robin I guess we should say now like jumping through the sky and it's just like this is awesome this is so cool yes
Daryl: yeah Yep. Yep.
DarthSylar: I guess that... that
DarthSylar: Yep.
DarthSylar: its it'sla It's both classic, but but new. it it's It's taking Batman and Robin and making them serious and cool.
DarthSylar: when they sort of Again, again it's it's in the public.
Brev Work Computer: mm-hmm
DarthSylar: again Because remember, its again it goes back to the Adam West days. Batman and Robin, silly duos. This is them looking like, this is a team.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah. hu I found my Wortham note, but we haven't gotten to that part of this issue yet. ah
Daryl: But we we also get the true introduction of Superman to the story in this issue.
DarthSylar: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Yep.
Daryl: And you can't even refer to him in the media.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
DarthSylar: Yeah, there iss a there's a whole lot going on with this interpretation of the Superman.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I love it.
Daryl: Well, i I want to say i remember reading once that Miller doesn't vibe with Superman. And so all of that got put on the page.
DarthSylar: And it feels that way. it's like I'm going to be honest. like This Superman is not my ideal Superman.
Brev Work Computer: Well, no, because he's, he's, you know,
Daryl: He's an antagonist in this story.
DarthSylar: skewed.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah, and and he's a government stooge, right?
DarthSylar: And is it is skewed. And it's skewed.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: I can accept Superman as an antagonist. I just don't like the interpretation of a Superman as an antagonist in this.
Daryl: so
DarthSylar: But I like the story that they're telling.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: So,
DarthSylar: That's why I'm glad it's an Elseworlds. This is not the main Superman.
Daryl: speaking of the impact that Dark Knight had on wider DC, how much of of other contemporary DC to this were were either of you reading at the time or after.
Brev Work Computer: Honestly, d DC for me has been kind of a come and go at times.
DarthSylar: I've been mostly Marvel, especially at that time.
Daryl: because
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Marvel. marvel was
Daryl: because
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Marvel was my jam and it has been for years. I I've read like, i mean, I dare, I didn't read crisis on infinite earths until I was in college and and picked up the trade.
Daryl: So.
Brev Work Computer: So
DarthSylar: think I read christ figure right quick figure every Crisis shortly after I read this, yeah.
Daryl: That's fair. And that's that's part of why I asked.
Brev Work Computer: yeah.
Daryl: That's part of why I asked.
Daryl: Because around this same time, or not long after this, is when John Byrne did his post-crisis Man of Steel relaunch.
Brev Work Computer: I did read some of that.
Daryl: And
DarthSylar: i figure yeah I think I had i figure i read a rid a volume of that.
Daryl: and not so much in the Man of Steel miniseries itself, but in the ongoing Superman book that Byrne did.
Brev Work Computer: hmm.
Daryl: Just like in this, there were several scenes of... Superman doing walk-in talks with Reagan at the White House.
Brev Work Computer: So despite being a Canadian through and through John Byrne very much loves from what I understand, loves conservative American politicians.
DarthSylar: That's from what I've gathered.
Daryl: That would appear to be the case, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yes.
Daryl: but i mean and you know so the The artwork was was great, and partly it's a matter of comics have traditionally up to a point.
Brev Work Computer: to
Daryl: ah Whenever there's the president depicted, it's always whoever is currently president.
Brev Work Computer: Correct.
DarthSylar: Easily, yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Daryl: So.
Brev Work Computer: I remember an X-Men issue where, where the, they were playing so baseball and the baseball goes way up in the sky because the Colossus road goes and gets it. And she passes by air force one and kisses the window and Ronald Reagan's in there, you know?
Brev Work Computer: So yeah. yeah Yeah.
Daryl: And so.
DarthSylar: Oh, she was so close to ending
Brev Work Computer: Oh, she got it. That's all that.
Daryl: And, you know, like there's there's a see i the panel that is burned into my memory for some reason is. Superman and Reagan walking through the Rose Garden and Superman has his hands clasped behind his back, you know, with ah behind his cape, not behind his not between his back and his cape, but they're like wrapped around the cape, so the cape is kind of held behind him and walking in.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yes.
Daryl: as ah I don't know why that panel is burned into my memory, but I remember it.
Brev Work Computer: is It's burned into your memory.
DarthSylar: It is...
Brev Work Computer: ah Like John Byrne.
Daryl: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yes, pun fully intended.
DarthSylar: Honestly, I can see why, because that's kind a...
Daryl: I'm going to take credit for it.
DarthSylar: it's kind of a kind of a show of deep deference and respect, if you think about it. Like your hands are being sewn behind, not not being hidden, so that's because that would be considered like duplicitous if he was hidden behind his cape.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Sure.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: So it's definitely a sign of deep respect and honor.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And John Byrne is a hell of a storyteller. I mean, like he, he's a great artist.
DarthSylar: yeah, yeah.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: ah Yeah. So, and, and this is just this, you know, as I've gotten older and thought about the story more, this is what happens. You put on a D and D parlance for a moment. This is what happens when the paladin starts to,
Brev Work Computer: take the the the the kingdom too seriously, right? Like I have to do what's right because it's also the law and it's and it's what I believe is right.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: and i've made too many compromise and and And Clark in here has made too many compromises that Bruce isn't willing to make. and And I love this this contention and frankly, i you know I know it's in issue four we're just issue three, but I like how it resolves.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I think it's a great resolution.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Can we talk about the most the iconic Superman part and also kind of the
Brev Work Computer: like
DarthSylar: most hilarious image of Superman ah posing on a rock and an eagle landing on his...
Brev Work Computer: Yes. yeah i was just looking at that. Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: And is's like it's It's so outrageous and parody that it is iconic.
Brev Work Computer: it's
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: It's like...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's supposed to be so outrageously...
Daryl: Well, and...
DarthSylar: ah Okay, we get it.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: All-American apple pie.
Daryl: When we get...
DarthSylar: he But it's like, he's... It's less the case, like normally that'd be like showing that he's a strong warrior for America, but in this case he's he's subservient, like he's under the eagle.
Daryl: Well, we get some narration from Clark while he's... operating in a shooting war in Cordo Maltese as on behalf of the government.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Yes.
Daryl: But we get some narration from him mentioning how they used Bruce against the heroes and that there were parents groups complaining.
Daryl: And that's my note that I was like, is this kind of a let let's write Wortham large in this story?
DarthSylar: Oh yeah!
Brev Work Computer: Maybe.
DarthSylar: Honestly, I was going with the Carrie Kelly thing, but both could be true from different points of view.
Daryl: And,
Daryl: and but, but yeah, that this is when we, wrong franchise, Nick.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, there you go.
Daryl: um We, ah we get that narration, that background saying that the government started coming after the heroes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And part of it was because of the more violent down-to-earth hero, Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: And so the the reason Clark made these compromises is, well, the only way I can keep doing what I'm doing is if I compromise. Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing?
Daryl: That's up to us to decide as the readers.
DarthSylar: Point 35.
Daryl: But I think it's pretty clear what Miller wants us to think.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. I mean, it's, there's no bones about it. Right. I mean, even, even to the point where Clark is still young and handsome and boyish and then Bruce is over here, 70 years old, even though they're around the same age.
Daryl: No, no.
Brev Work Computer: So it's like in this, no, he's gotta be 70.
Daryl: Bruce is 55.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: when When he...
DarthSylar: and sixty five
Daryl: At the end of 4, it's like... After... Spoiler alert, kids.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: after he After he is quote-unquote dead on the newscast, they say the millionaire was 55 years old.
Brev Work Computer: hello Oh, you're right. Fuck this. This is bullshit.
Daryl: Exactly. Exactly. exactly that that's where i was gonna say brev let's feel old here he was 55.
Brev Work Computer: All You're right. Yeah, Jesus.
DarthSylar: Well, none of us have been trained by Tibetan monks, have we?
Brev Work Computer: was
Daryl: we
DarthSylar: Yeah. I was there. tibetan monks have we
Brev Work Computer: That's true. I do have an interesting question for you all. You guys both saw James Gunn's Superman, right? So I was thinking it about that. did you see it, Nick? Okay.
Brev Work Computer: So when you...
Daryl: we we all saw it as a group
DarthSylar: was there
Brev Work Computer: Oh, that's right. So when you when you contrast this Superman who's working for the president with the Superman that James Gunn depicts where he's his own agent. He's doing things because people are going to hurt other people.
Brev Work Computer: People were dying and I'm doing what I need to do because I want to save people.
DarthSylar: That's Superman.
Brev Work Computer: That is an interesting contrast opposed to what Miller sees as the eventual end of Superman, so to speak, is i have i have lost...
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: that because I'm working for the American government because I believe they're the most right. Not lowercase, a lowercase R, not capital R. But, you know, yeah, you got get it.
DarthSylar: Yeah. But again, it's it again it's it's him critiquing that entirely.
Brev Work Computer: good
DarthSylar: It's like,
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Superman is a student of the government, so therefore a representative of the government. Powerful, strong, but ultimately being wielded by unworthy hands.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: home
Brev Work Computer: Good point.
Daryl: You know, think just a thought that just occurred to me, thinking again about the long shadow that Dark Knight has cast on DC, and rightly so, i wonder if this deference to the government that...
Brev Work Computer: Hmm.
Daryl: Miller is really the first one that, really well, I guess not, because in the 60s, Superboy revealed his secret identity to Kennedy because, well, if I can't trust the president, who can I trust?
Brev Work Computer: Ha ha ha.
Daryl: but But it really hit its peak with Miller's representation of Superman here in Dark Knight Returns.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Could that have been one of the I would love to talk to the Superman writing crew from the time, but could that have been one of the sparks of Genesis for the President Lex storyline?
DarthSylar: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It could.
Brev Work Computer: Could be.
DarthSylar: It could be.
Daryl: Because we we know that they ultimately revealed that Lex's motivation was, if I'm the president, he has to defer to me.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: and he he And Lex even becomes the president in The Dark Knight Strikes Back, the sequel to this.
Daryl: And so...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: It's been so... I've only read that all the way through once.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: I hate what they did to my boy, Dick c Grayson.
Brev Work Computer: fifty
DarthSylar: That is
Daryl: I hate what Frank did to my boy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: that that is that is
Brev Work Computer: I don't even remember. I read it once. so I was like, eh. Um,
DarthSylar: yeah That is what happened. Lex is the president.
Daryl: Well, so...
Brev Work Computer: but even let But Lex becomes the president of the United States in the mainline DC comics as well.
Daryl: So... Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And that that end to what Daryl's saying is like, because then Superman has to defer to him because he is now the American way. He was voted to that level.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: But I always thought that that was, I thought when I first heard that, I was like, that's freaking genius because Lex in a power suit, as fun and as cool as that is, a Superman can take him out in the parachute, but what does he do if he's behind the Oval law behind in the oval Office behind the, the i what do you call it, the Resolute Desk?
Daryl: Yeah.
Daryl: The Resolute Desk.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, how how's what's he going to do?
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: He can't do anything.
DarthSylar: Well, he does something in the the Justice League card cartoon, but then he becomes a Justice Lord Superfane.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I mean, like and even if Lex grabbed her by the pussy, he couldn't do anything, right? Yeah.
Daryl: But I and i totally spaced on what I was about to say.
Brev Work Computer: I used a very inflammatory word so I can see why.
Daryl: Yes, you you you have you have me distracted now.
DarthSylar: Yeah, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: You you know like in Up when it's like Squirrel?
DarthSylar: Uh-huh.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Hey, Stephanie, you feeling any better? or But then we have this like, and then it's the whole Joker thing in this third issue. And I love this.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: This one, when I was a kid, I was like, this is cool.
DarthSylar: Oh, I mean, this is probably...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: ah yeah
DarthSylar: I'm surprised that this Joker interpretation isn't as like well known. i like it a lot because it is very much like...
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: It's very... It's truly disturbingly psychotic.
Brev Work Computer: a
Daryl: let Let me tell you, when i when I read this this time through,
DarthSylar: Like Sivers, Sivers gives me Sivers.
Daryl: what
Brev Work Computer: yep
Daryl: when whenever the Joker spoke... So, peek behind my psychosis. When I read Batman comics, ever since the early 90s, I hear Kevin Conroy in my head.
DarthSylar: Same.
Brev Work Computer: Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay.
Daryl: what and for the joker i hear mark hamill in my head when i read these joker scenes do you know who was originally cast to voice the joker on batman the animated series tim curry
Brev Work Computer: I could see that.
DarthSylar: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Cesar Romero.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: No. I could see that. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Oh!
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: and and they decided that he was too scary as the joker i heard
Brev Work Computer: I could see that he be can't he was he was just recently a clown.
DarthSylar: I can see that.
Daryl: Yeah, I heard Tim Curry.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: You know what? I can see. Oh, that's an extra tingle.
Brev Work Computer: I like that. I like that. I like that a lot because Tim Curry has obviously a certain level of ah ah femininity.
Brev Work Computer: i don't know I'm saying that right, but like he has some feminine qualities to him.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: This Joker is obviously drawn, I think, ah very almost androgynously.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: and so...
DarthSylar: Yes.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: He has a child line that's masculine, but it's the lips and the eyes. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. It reminds me going back to a place of Sandman.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It reminds me of desire. What later they did with that, with that character is kind of making it like, you're not sure.
DarthSylar: yeah
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It's almost David Bowie esque androgyny Tilda Swinton before there's a Tilda Swinton really. So it's like, it's like just fits.
DarthSylar: yeah
Brev Work Computer: And so Tim Curry having the voice, you know, Dr. Frank and for, or I can totally see that happening. And I love the fact that the Joker is like a small through line, a little subplot. That's the other thing comics they don't have is subplots. It's everything is the A plot. There's no, there's no B plot. There's certainly no C plot. and it's kind of like, okay, well, if I don't like the A plot, I guess I just don't like this book.
Brev Work Computer: um
Daryl: Because the B and C plot don't make sense in the trade paperback.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. You're Daryl. I hate that you're right all the time.
Brev Work Computer: You're absolutely 100% right.
DarthSylar: How do you think I How do you How do you think I feel all the time talking to him Brev
Brev Work Computer: Bringing it back to the trade paperback. So, but like, I love, I love how this like, yeah, damn it, Daryl. But like, I love the fact that Joker is just kind of like almost catatonic.
Brev Work Computer: And then when he sees Batman return, he's like, oh, I wake up because my, my buddy is back.
DarthSylar: Oh, the first line, Batman, darling, is like, oh.
Daryl: yeah
Daryl: Yeah, that that's where I heard Tim Curry.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm.
DarthSylar: I was like, it was like, it's like and it's just like, oh, don't don't say that, don't say that.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. dar
Brev Work Computer: But I wonder what the commentary Frank Miller is trying to say with Joker being effeminate.
DarthSylar: I think it is, but and it's been touched upon, especially in Scott Snyder's stuff, the sort of the, Joker is obsessed with but Batman to a degree that ah is almost, like, to a degree some semi-romantic, semi-sexual, somewhat homicidal.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Just twisted.
DarthSylar: It straddles so many lines of lines to the point that you can't tell what it is, but it's like there's something... fundamentally he is just can't function without in fact the idea of the fact that he's caught catatonic without batman
Daryl: Well, and
Daryl: well and those are all kind of traits that Grant Morrison picked up and ran with in the Arkham Asylum graphic novel.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. He sure did.
DarthSylar: yep like a lot of it was kind of
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. and and this And was this the first time, though? like Because when I was a kid and I read Batman comics throughout, this is the first time we really get that put into stone to say like Miller's interpretation is these are these are two these are the these are two sides of the same coin, which is important.
Daryl: Yeah, as far as I can recall, yeah.
DarthSylar: I think this is like...
Brev Work Computer: you start with the story with Two-Face, right? And the coin. But now you have these two as like one is...
Daryl: hey
Brev Work Computer: one is order among chaos and one is chaos among order so and that is really driven down here
DarthSylar: And one is like... One can live without the other, but the other seems to like only function with the other. And then they add in like the... Everything that the Joker is a feminine sort of psycho-sexual energy that he has, and yet is like it adds to like the tension.
Brev Work Computer: yes
Daryl: Well, and what one thing that's kind of interesting... One thing that's kind of interesting about that, too, is he's presented in that very androgynous way until he's actually in direct conflict with Batman.
DarthSylar: Yeah, then he becomes more a angular, more
Brev Work Computer: hu
Daryl: At which point he is, yeah, he's he's bulkier. He he is deadlier when he's actually in direct conflict with Batman.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: Yep. Yeah.
Daryl: And yeah he he killed he killed David Letterman and Paul Schaefer and Dr.
Brev Work Computer: yeah Yeah, he sure did.
Daryl: Ruth.
Brev Work Computer: trying to make a he drew He was he is making an entrance.
Daryl: yeah
Daryl: Well, and i hi that too, that that's another moment where you know I distinctly heard Tim Curry's voice when you the the audience is all nervous on the talk show already.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And he turns and, yeah He looks at Letterman, but the the angle of the shot is you see the audience and he says, I'm going to kill everyone in this studio.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And that I just, I heard Tim Curry there again, but let let me tell you what, before I forget the, those little doll bomb things, those are, those have disturbed me since those have disturbed me for 40 years.
DarthSylar: Oh, I hate those things.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: I hate them. I hate them.
Brev Work Computer: They should.
DarthSylar: I hate them.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: I hate them.
Daryl: ah
DarthSylar: i Honestly, like I'm so glad that they have never showed up again. If they ever showed up again, I would put down a book immediately and leave the room because like I remember reading it like, oh, hell no. this This is not cool.
Brev Work Computer: So many faces, so different from one another. So few smiles.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: oh it's just oh it's like again like if this was meant to reinvent batman is darker and grittier this re and people say like oh it's mostly the kelly joke but like no this this this started like the return of like the joker being a being a nightmare fuel
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yes. I mean, well, Killing Joke comes out, what, a year or two later? But you're right, Nick.
DarthSylar: yeah
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: This is this is the...
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: i I truly believe this is the moment where Alan Moore was like, you know, I've got an idea for Batman's story, but it's going more of a Joker story. So, doing my best, Alan Moore.
Daryl: to
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, and then we get went Alfred on a motorbike and... No, no, that's sorry, that's that's Bruce on the motorbike. yeah hidden Yeah, yeah, yeah, and a mask.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: That's what always threw me. Yeah. And then we get, you know, the race to get to get the he finds Selena dressed up as Wonder Woman, which, you know, we all can imply what happened there. um
DarthSylar: That was...
Daryl: you know yep yep and yeah
DarthSylar: I guess there's a lot of the disturbing stuff in this one issue.
Brev Work Computer: This was this was the issue. I think was the most disturbing to me. And I think it's supposed to be.
DarthSylar: I think... I think...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: and then Again, it's again it's the the Joker issue, basically.
Daryl: Well, because it.
DarthSylar: So it's like... it's It really sounds like... The Joker in like such a short amount of time does some really horrific things.
Brev Work Computer: Yes, with the Boy Scouts.
DarthSylar: Even most of it's implied. and Some of it's implied, but a lot of it is shown and is like, yeah every time he's on see every time he's on panel,
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
DarthSylar: it feels uncomfortable
Brev Work Computer: Yes. They could put me in a helicopter and fly me up into the air and line the body's head to toe on the ground in a delightful geometric patterns like an endless June Taylor dancer's routine.
Daryl: Yeah, and.
Brev Work Computer: And it would never be enough. No, I don't keep count, but you do. And I love you for it.
DarthSylar: like Again, that that moment, like that line is like it's like so good and so twisted.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. if
Brev Work Computer: if So good. hmm.
DarthSylar: Because again, you can't tell like if Joker's coming from it with like, I love you, Batman. It's like, I love torturing you. It could be both or neither or all at the same time.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: Yeah. i mean
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: in the words In the words of Tony Stark, is it too much to ask for both?
Brev Work Computer: Yes, right. Well, it's just great because like you're saying, Nick, like Joker doesn't. He's the type of person that it's like, i don't keep count of all the times I've insulted you, but I know you remember, which is a more important to me that you remember what I do rather than what I remember. it you everyone i It's more important to me that you remember what I do than I remember what I do.
Brev Work Computer: Like I tell my kids all the time.
DarthSylar: like
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I say funny shit all day long. i don't remember what I was. I'm glad you remember because it means I matter to you.
DarthSylar: yeahs like it again like that that's also like
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: Batman remembers it all because that's that's that's someone he failed he he lost Joker's like I don't have to remember you just have to remember because I did it
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, that's right. I killed I killed 30 people. Oh, yeah, I guess I did. I don't think about it. But you obviously matter.
Daryl: Isn't that cool?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's so great.
DarthSylar: And again, you can't tell. It's like is' like he loves him for like remembering him or that he loves Batman. It's like, I need you to be part of my life. Otherwise, I have nothing else left.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, nobody cares like you do.
DarthSylar: Like, either way..................... this
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. It's a great line from, I think it's ah the importance of being earnest. The only thing worse than not being talked the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
Brev Work Computer: So maybe that's, maybe that's an, it's it's Oscar Wilde.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: I don't remember the play. So anyway. So then they go in the tunnel of love, which is homoerotic.
Daryl: Yep. Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And again, like it's it's not like it's been leading this way.
Daryl: I mean, that that ah that's just a total coincidence, Brev.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's like, honestly, I feel like this is the real time that they've actually explored that to a degree. It was like on the nose.
Brev Work Computer: Yes, Joker is stabbing Batman.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: is like,
Daryl: And
DarthSylar: its it's i On the nose, it so that sounds like to the point of parody, but honestly, it is fitting. but this this twisted affair of theirs their secret identities, their their connectiveness...
Brev Work Computer: He's just fishing buddies. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Again, like it's it's explored further by other storytellers, but I feel this is where they really, like, from beginning to end, I feel that this was Frank Biller's intention to explore the Joker-Batman dynamic.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: And it's also very, very fitting that you know since we're writing, quote unquote, the last Batman story, that Miller had gets to that, you know, the the inevitable question that everybody asks, why doesn't Batman just kill him?
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: yeah Why doesn't he just kill him? even Even Batman himself is saying, you know this time I've got to do it because look at the shape that I'm in I can't keep doing this forever.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: So I finally have have to do it. And he still can't.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm. So then Joker does like a Linda Blair and I was even as a kid, I had to reread this like did what happened just happen?
Daryl: He... he
Brev Work Computer: o
DarthSylar: Oh like, it it's like...
DarthSylar: Kudos to the Joker for having that much control over his neck muscles to literally snap his own goddamn neck.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Out of spite!
Daryl: After being paralyzed.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Out of pure spite for Batman!
Daryl: Well, out of pure spite, because he he says he hears the sirens coming and they will never believe that you didn't have the nerve.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: That's right. After everything I've done.
DarthSylar: Because
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: it's like, you're right.
Brev Work Computer: help
DarthSylar: Considering the literal massacre he just did like, Batman coming out and being seemingly but not truly, truly as brutal as most people imagine him to be.
DarthSylar: like But it's like, Joker had, in this case, yeah, it'd be hard-pressed to be like, yeah, Batman killed him.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And Joker was like, I'm gonna do that. It's the final Joker I will ever get.
Brev Work Computer: That's right.
Daryl: Yep. Yep.
Brev Work Computer: So then we get the, go ahead.
Daryl: And that... Oh, I was going to say, that takes us into the last issue, The Dark Knight Falls.
Brev Work Computer: Okay. I'm going to give my one negative thing here. The first couple of pages of this issue, and maybe it's the printing that I have, but they're kind of weak.
Daryl: Okay.
Brev Work Computer: That's like the, the colors off the art seems a little bit janky. Um,
DarthSylar: If I remember yet, oh yeah, I think I remember that, yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it gets, it gets better as the issue goes on, but there's like the first four or five pages. I'm kind of like, eh, it looks like it took a dip. Like this whole scene where Batman, got the, uh, he's like the SWAT team is on him.
Brev Work Computer: Cause he's now got to leave the tunnel, the the carnival, right? He's got to get out of here.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: He does spin on the Joker's face, that's cool.
Brev Work Computer: Um,
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, that is really cool. um If you think that spit. ah Yeah, but I'm kidding. But there's this like explosion or something going on. And i don't know. just It just isn't quite getting there.
Brev Work Computer: But it's when is when Robin saves him, it starts to it starts the art starts to get a little tighter, a little bit better, a little bit back to form for Miller.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: I mean, don't get me wrong. It's still better than a lot of artists I've read. But it is definitely a it feels like he was struggling to get started in my humble opinion.
DarthSylar: It's... I think Miller's art has been inconsistent.
Daryl: Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised.
DarthSylar: I'm the not-so-proud owner of his holy terror, and like that is not his best work.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: Well, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some trouble for him getting it off the ground. Because like I say, there was a delay between three and four. One, two, and three came out like clockwork.
DarthSylar: Oh, yeah, I think I did remember that, yeah.
Daryl: And there was a couple of months between three and four. And um a I have read another copy of, another version of the trade paperback than the one that I mentioned that has his, um his plot for the fourth issue in it.
Daryl: And the entire fight, he hasn't broken up into four acts. The entire final act is different.
Brev Work Computer: Really?
Daryl: Um, I mean, the, the major beats are the same, but it, it has a an ending where it, it doesn't end. The fight still ends in Crime Alley pretty much the same way.
DarthSylar: Oh.
Daryl: But then he is taken to a military base where he's he's held and the the general ah basically says, okay, we have you. you're You can keep working. you We're not going to kill you. You're going to work for us now, like Kent does.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And you know they they have him strapped down you know naked to a hospital bed, and he manages to you know free an arm, pulls his IV out, and uses the needle on the IV to cut into his arm, and that's where he has the the pill that fakes his death.
DarthSylar: Ah.
Daryl: And he pulls the pill out of his arm and takes it, and then they think he's dead. And then we we we get kind of the ending that we saw, except at the end, he's sitting on this large...
Daryl: thrown basically in the Batcave with Carrie next to him as as Robin and the sons of the Batman like coming in to pay tribute or whatever.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I like this one. I like the one they printed better. that That one feels like way too much meta commentary on the American military industrial complex. And like we are we already know based on what he what what Miller's, how his interpretation of Superman.
Brev Work Computer: we don't We don't need that much on the nose.
DarthSylar: this is already enough.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And again, like i we already have this is enough politics and in comics.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: We don't need more.
Brev Work Computer: i Yeah, I totally agree. The way this ends is so much better. And I love you brought the Sons of Batman because throughout the like the third issue and then definitely the fourth issue, we see that all those mutants have...
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
DarthSylar: He starts a cultural revolution, basically.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, all the mutants that that he freed from the mutant boss now work for him and they're doing the good deeds. And they look a little fascist, but they're doing the deeds to save to save Gotham from everybody else.
Brev Work Computer: And they just, you know, it just goes to show like the idea that the youth need a leader, right?
Daryl: Well, Ed, the...
Brev Work Computer: Someone to rise up with.
Daryl: And the the important thing is, too, to go along with that, that they need a leader, is they're going beyond the boundaries that Batman has always set for himself.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: You know, they're...
DarthSylar: They're inspired similar to like Carrie Kelly to take up it's a cultural revolution but has no head to the snake.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: But they're they're also doing things like, ah you know, the convenience store...
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: guy who was being robbed after they stopped the robbers they're like okay well you should have fought back so we're cutting your fingers off and but before we dive before we dive in here I do want something that I want to touch on Breville laugh because he's like a haha i I knew that you were going to to dunk on a certain filmmaker and I'm not dunking on a certain filmmaker
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: It's like
Brev Work Computer: but
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: Here we go. if
Daryl: But one thing that has, over the years, yeah we've had kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of parts of this story. And one of them we kind of see throughout the past, the the fourth issue and the third issue, where yeah we have audiences calling for a more violent, Punisher-like Batman, and a lot of them cite Dark Knight Returns as proof that Batman should kill.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: But if we look at the the trajectory of the story, ah he first has a warrant put out on him in 3 when Gordon retires and Yindel comes in as the new commissioner.
Daryl: And she takes the podium and she reads the charges. And the charges are breaking and entering, a assault and battery, and creating a public menace. Then later, when they first get a glimpse of Carrie as Robin,
Daryl: she calls in to have child endangerment added to the charges. On the news, Lana Lang mentions specifically Batman hasn't killed anyone.
Daryl: It's only after the Joker has killed himself, and just like he said, they're not going to believe you didn't do it, that's when murder gets added to the charges.
DarthSylar: Yep.
Daryl: So i don't i don't care, Batman didn't kill. Batman's not a serial killer.
DarthSylar: Yep.
Daryl: Batman is not the Punisher. if i There are great Punisher stories out there. And if I want to read one, I'll read a Punisher story. I won't read a Batman story.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Off of my soapbox.
Brev Work Computer: No. No, I get it.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: I get it. Yep.
DarthSylar: There's a fundamental difference. like If you want to read that type story, that's the type of story. But the story is like, it goes off, it comes off of like the like Zoro. Zoro, depending on the interpretation, obviously, doesn't kill.
DarthSylar: But he is vigilante who wears a mask, who is a wealthy upbrick.
Daryl: Speaking of Zorro...
DarthSylar: Frank Holozubiec-O'clock, and uses his symbol to strike fear into into the criminals, both high and low born.
Daryl: Speaking of Zorro, jumping back to the first issue really quick. ah Both of you have watched The West Wing, yes?
Brev Work Computer: Nope.
Daryl: Oh, okay. you You won't get this reference, Brev. But there's there's an issue of West Wing where ah President Bartlett is being, a it has he's having this crisis of conscience because he might have to send troops into basically a no-win scenario.
Brev Work Computer: Right. The Kobayashi Baru.
Daryl: and he goes but And he goes back to the residence and he turns on the TV and um the Laurel and Hardy movie with the toy soldiers is on.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
DarthSylar: ah yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: and And it keeps cutting between the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up and the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up and the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up. There's a scene in the first issue where Bruce sits down to watch TV and the markups the Mark of Zorro is on, which that this is the this is the first time that Miller's the first one who specifically says the movie the Waynes went to see was the Mark of Zorro.
Brev Work Computer: he
DarthSylar: Oh yes, I know what you're going talk about.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: And it cuts between Bruce and he keeps changing through the channels to get away from the Mark of Zorro. And it's news story after news story after news story of crime and horror going on in Gotham.
Daryl: And... Obviously West Wing came long after, but that scene just made me think of that scene with with Bartlett in the West Wing.
DarthSylar: Yeah. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It very well have been that the that the writers saw that read this as well. so
Daryl: ah Entirely possible, but you know it it was one of those things where bringing 40 more years of experiences and media...
Daryl: intake into me has like you said you know i'm the one that's changed over the 40 years and now i have that moment that makes this already cinematic sequence in the comic come to life a little more because i've seen something similar in movement
Brev Work Computer: yep yep it's craziness no no it's fine it's's that's totally good that's that's the problem with this story is it's it's like it's so dense you get so much out of this and
Daryl: sorry i jumped back three issues sorry
DarthSylar: Yeah,
DarthSylar: yeah. I think it's appropriate to say that us discussing it is no substitute.
Brev Work Computer: yeah no
DarthSylar: for like this I would recommend the two part animated movies that are pretty faithful to to it. But again, it's a most in Pixar adaptation of the graph ah the graphic novel story, so it's not the same, but it has similar beats.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And then, so this issue continues with the, she, ran again, Robin manages to rescue Batman. um
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And they get him back home and, you know, we get the whole, you know, the heart, you know, the, the, the little meter going on. And like, that's when the sons of Batman are out there and you definitely barely touched on that. And they got a whole bunch of, and you got Superman flying into action, trying to stop a, a nuclear bomb or missile.
Brev Work Computer: And he kind of does, but,
DarthSylar: Oh, yeah, the Cold War is going on.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, exactly. Something else is happening outside of Gotham. And it and the the bomb goes off and it fucks up Supes pretty badly.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: Wrecked.
DarthSylar: ah He gets wrecked by that. i was I'll say this, like I remember reading that, seeing the image of Superman, like and I'm like, oh snap!
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: like Even as a kid, i was like, is Superman dead?
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's pretty wrecked.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: But what happens is that that I guess that EMP goes over all the the East Coast, including Gotham, and everybody's in shut into like all they lose all their electricity.
Brev Work Computer: And so then here comes Batman on the horseback and to save the day, which is yes.
DarthSylar: ah he's he's He's a dark knight on horseback.
Brev Work Computer: And like Zorro, he's on a black horse. Yeah, I mean, like, this is this is great. This is this is
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: Yep. He
DarthSylar: This is iconic as heck.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, yeah. And Miller just nailed it. It's so good.
DarthSylar: It's like...
Brev Work Computer: And they're there to stop the crime that's going on.
DarthSylar: the the the
Daryl: he did
DarthSylar: But no, no, the the best part is they to continue on what you were saying, Daryl, about like how was like, this is the moment where people say like, oh, this is when violent Batman. He goes up to the sons of Batman who are ready to violently retake the city in their name.
DarthSylar: And he goes up to them, takes one of the guns, is like breaks it and says, these are the weapons. These are clumsy, ineffective weapons. I'll teach you how to use your minds and your fists.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: yeah These are the weapons of the enemy.
Brev Work Computer: he
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: m
DarthSylar: It's like Batman destroys a gun and is like, no, no one's going to kill anyone right now. We are the law.
Brev Work Computer: That's right. And we're going to save everybody that we can. and We're going stop the people that are committing the crimes. I love that. I love that. These are the weapons of the enemy. I mean, like how many times have we heard that?
Brev Work Computer: just recently the last few years, like you cannot use the same weapons your enemies employ because then you become no better than them.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: Yes, and it's like Batman would say, said that is like, again, like the the Sons of Batman were are well-intentioned extremists, but he's like cooling them down and saying, we need to function better than this.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: If we're going to make, we're going to survive, this is as he's basically pulling together society at that moment.
Daryl: Yeah, pull it.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: And then we get, we get it.
Daryl: And we we also have you know ah shades of of foreshadowing with a a single plane knocked out by the EMP hits the Gotham Towers.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: and
DarthSylar: Force-hattering is a literary device.
Brev Work Computer: which
Daryl: Hang on, Nick. I do have the clip loaded up. Hang on.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, and it's weirdly ends up being a sad and historical moment that say foreshadows that we didn't even know was going to happen. And then we...
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: But in this case, similar to that. It is a moment where where we get to see community come together in the moments of tragedy. This is a
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: where Gordon helps rally the people, Batman rallies the Sons of Batman.
DarthSylar: It's them working on the ground level and making making things work in the lack of control they have.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. They're the heroes of Gotham.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Saving saving the city from itself.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. the two the The two men that are standing on that wall to protect everybody else.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: And even Lynn hats like she's has the cops all holed up and got GCPD. And it's like, she recognizes that. No, this is, they have it.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: Yep. and And then comes the big moment.
Brev Work Computer: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, which one's your big moment? Because there's several at this end. What do you...
DarthSylar: Well, after Superman reinflates like one of those dinosaurs you put in water.
Daryl: Well, yeah, there are.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: yeah i mean, just...
Brev Work Computer: Are you talking about the next hero that we have that joins the melee? Yeah. Yeah.
Daryl: Oh, there's that too. Yeah, they the Green Arrow coming in and ah just being every bit the you know hippie radical that he became after
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Brev Work Computer: system
DarthSylar: um here from his yeah and it's like like he is he just stepped right out of those books it's clear that Miller was a fan of those because he just stepped right out of those pages that and this is a speech he would be giving the howl right now
Daryl: ah after hard traveling heroes.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: yep
Daryl: Yes. and heat
Brev Work Computer: And it is, it is, and and it's Superman that took Oliver's arm, right?
DarthSylar: yeah the implication is
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah, that that it that is the heavy, heavy implication.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
Daryl: you Because cause Oliver, yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's still it still hurts when it's cold. Yeah.
Daryl: says i've i've Yeah, I can't remember exactly what he says. Something about, you know, I, yeah.
DarthSylar: He wants to take a shot one last shot at the schoolboy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I want a small piece of him.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: A small piece will do for old time's sake, you know. And he looks at his arm. It still hurts when it's cold.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And that's what's great. He even, he kind of chastises Bruce for like not going far enough. It's like, Oh God.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Okay. and Then we get out. Okay. Ollie. What's good. Wow. All right. Here we go.
DarthSylar: Again, that's that's that it's the speech he'd be given that he gave Hell every other issue.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: Even hard-traveling heroes is like...
Daryl: because
Brev Work Computer: You're not doing enough. mean,
Daryl: ah Use your magic ring and fix everything.
Brev Work Computer: That's right. And then and then and then then Superman asks the the the the the question of the day, where? um Like, where are we doing this? You and me, it's on.
Brev Work Computer: So.
Daryl: And there's only one place that that Batman would do it.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: Crime Alley.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. And then they have a great battle. I love this fight. I like the one years later that in Hush, but I like this one better.
DarthSylar: It's...
Daryl: Oh, yeah.
DarthSylar: Oh, this... Huss is a different...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it's completely different.
DarthSylar: It's a whole different... Because this is truly a fight of ideals. Not fight of like, oh, I have to fight you. Or I'm mind-controlled and fight you.
Brev Work Computer: by By Poison Ivy. Yeah, I know. i just Jim Lee is a gorgeous artist and it's hard to deny.
DarthSylar: Oh, it's art, but like...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: But it's like, this is truly... and This is sort of... There's a... I love this fight. I hate how no one understands this fight.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: No one gets it.
Brev Work Computer: this this is this is This is as an adult going back and rewatching a New Hope or Star Wars and realizing just how important that fight is.
Brev Work Computer: Or even Empire in Jedi.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Like every one of those lightsaber duels means something. And then you get Yoda jumping around all over the screen and, uh, with Dooku and you're like, okay. i was That was, that cute.
Brev Work Computer: Or, um, you know, whatever happens later. And it's like, there's, there's certain weight that happens in those original, uh, lightsaber battle.
DarthSylar: Like, every word, every blow is saying more than more than just a puns.
Brev Work Computer: Just like this. There's there. Like you said.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, exactly.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly.
DarthSylar: This is more than just Batman fighting Superman.
Brev Work Computer: the
DarthSylar: This is the ideals of Batman, a sort of free, radical vigilante against propped-up government student.
Daryl: and
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: Well, Ed, this is also a paradigm shift for the characters because for decades at this point, they have almost exclusively been portrayed as best buddies. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: Best friends.
Daryl: and And I have no doubt, I have no doubt, again, long shadow, that when Burns' Man of Steel came out later in the same year, that the friction between the two of them here is what led to the decision that stayed in place for a good 20 years after this of
DarthSylar: World's finest.
Daryl: No, they're not best Why would these two people be best friends?
Daryl: And i I'm glad that we've got the super buddies back.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: But there was ah there's also a lot to have been mined from that no, it doesn't make sense for them to be best friends.
DarthSylar: Oh yeah. There is a good storytelling idea from ah conflicted Batman and Superman.
Daryl: But...
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: When the objective of the story is Batman against Superman, or maybe condensing that into a more snappy snappy snappy letter, like v ah that that then you lose
Daryl: ah
DarthSylar: the and you lose the the important implication of that
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: See, Nick's the one who threw shade through specific shade.
Brev Work Computer: Oh, BVS. Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah, that's
Brev Work Computer: Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I, yeah, it's, I, I enjoyed it, but I didn't think too much about it.
DarthSylar: When you boil it down to that, that's when you lose like the implications of like this story of this event.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: like This is the Batman v Superman, but it's not just Batman and Superman.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's a battle of ideals, and it's not won by it Again, like it's like...
Daryl: It's not won by Batman beating the crap out of Superman. It's won by Batman faking his own death.
DarthSylar: Exactly.
Brev Work Computer: it's one it's It's essentially won by by Clark committing what he believes is murder at the time.
DarthSylar: for Because it's...
Brev Work Computer: Look how far you have fallen, Clark.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: You are willing to kill your friend.
DarthSylar: and Again, like the adult this but this this story, sorry despite recontextualizing, as you said, what Batman...
Brev Work Computer: Wolf.
Daryl: Yep.
DarthSylar: the the convert the how camaraderie they have. This one is built on the idea that they were friends and this is a tragedy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: It's it's almost like a Greek tragedy. that
Brev Work Computer: I don't think it's almost like one. I think it is. It's operatic.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: You know, it's like bigger than life.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: It's like you could see this on stage before you and like and like this thing would be I mean, this would be awesome. Right. And like, you're right, Nick. It's it's it's the.
Brev Work Computer: the pro again Going back to movies trying to cram too much shit in it and not really understanding what they're trying to do at the time, BVS is another one. We've got four different story, famous story arcs going on at the same time and all these different things we want to do. And it's like, I had a fun time as long as I don't think too deeply about it. Because if I do, then I see how all of the missteps along the way, we took like flavors of things and tried to remake our own thing without just, what if we just made our own story?
Brev Work Computer: Let's just make our own story about these two instead of trying to rip off all these other ones.
DarthSylar: Again, by stripping elements to get to quote-unquote iconic points without being their stories, you rob them of their weight, their impact.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. you you Yes. Yes. 100%. Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: like I'll admit, like there's some there's there's some popcorn fun if you get through most of BVS to the ending point. There's some popcorn fun and cool moments, and the the this the costuming looks amazing.
DarthSylar: seeing the impacts hit, but there's like but it has it doesn't it doesn' it hit like this. is is it like
Brev Work Computer: No.
DarthSylar: when it's When every moment is like, and Superman thinking he killed his best friend on behalf of the government that basically sort of has shackled him to <unk> tim to his quote-unquote ideals.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm.
DarthSylar: it's it's It's tragic.
Daryl: And yeah.
DarthSylar: It's it's it's heartbreaking.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And it's more powerful. It hits harder than you're you.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: And it's not Batman beating him.
Brev Work Computer: Maybe maybe we both are are human beings, too, which is which is which is what the intent of the Martha moment is. I'm I'm I'm you are a person. I'm a person. We were both raised by people.
Brev Work Computer: We're both people, even if we're not on the you're not from the planet.
DarthSylar: But it fits more when when Bruce says, like, Clark, given enough time, I could have killed you right now.
Brev Work Computer: But.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: But I didn't. Because I don't want to.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly.
DarthSylar: And it's like, but you are here willing to kill me.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: and it's like, that's that's the moment. It's like, Batman wins not by beating Superman, but by making Superman realize how far he's fallen.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: it's the It's the Jedi moment all over again.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: I hate to bring it back to Star Wars, but it's the importance of Luke throwing away his lightsaber at the end of Jedi, spoiler alert, and saying, no, I'm a Jedi like my father before me. It's him sacrificing himself, taking a risk that his dad will save him.
Brev Work Computer: And still remember being a kid and not understanding what was going on, and my mom whispered, that my mom was reading to me in the theater. It was like, he's gonna he's basically that he's hoping his dad will save him.
Brev Work Computer: And I was like, what? And then Vader picks up Palpatine or the emperor at the time and throws him in the pit. And I was like, oh my God.
DarthSylar: Oh, your mom did the same thing with me.
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: Like, yeah.
DarthSylar: ah My mom did the same thing with me when we watched it. hes like
Brev Work Computer: My mom might've done the same thing with you too, Nick. I don't know.
DarthSylar: I don't know your mom.
Brev Work Computer: if
DarthSylar: and um ah But my mom watched all the Star Wars with me. is like I gasped twin win when Luke threw away.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm.
DarthSylar: How's he going to defeat the Emperor? it's like i also are like no no he's He's already beaten him. He doesn't have to fight.
Brev Work Computer: That's right.
DarthSylar: it's like What?
Brev Work Computer: That's why i mean, a lot of people give the last Jedi shit and I'm like, what are you talking about? That's a great moment.
DarthSylar: that was that was the most saiddi That was the most Jedi thing ever.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly.
Daryl: Yeah. Yeah, he... yes you You will get no arguments about Last Jedi from me.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, I think it's great.
DarthSylar: I think it's great.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: do too.
DarthSylar: I'll admit it has flaws, but so does every movie.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. There's some parts that work better than others, but I think it's great.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: oh yeah There you go.
DarthSylar: when you when you But ah that's a whole different discussion and that's if we want this and that's if we want this podcast to be cancelled. So meet us on May the 4th when we talk The Last Jedi and the last episode of this podcast.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And so the the the it kind of starts wrapping up as the fight goes on and then and then Bruce's heart gives out, right?
DarthSylar: And again, it's Clark realizes it's too late that it's like he thinks he killed him.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: And it's like, it's sad. It's like.
Brev Work Computer: and then and Yeah.
Daryl: Yeah, I i remember you know reading it the first time. I was like, holy crap. Batman just died.
Brev Work Computer: I read comics from the start to the finish. I don't flip through. I present them like a movie. I know some people like to flip through. No, no, no. If I'm going to read it, I start at the beginning and I read all the way to the end without skipping ahead.
DarthSylar: don't know.
DarthSylar: you you gotta take in the You gotta take in the image. it's ah it's and They didn't just draw that for no reason.
Brev Work Computer: Exactly.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. It's a story. Tell me a story. And then poor Alfred finally dies. Right?
Daryl: ah hey
Brev Work Computer: Collapses. And I love this line from Superman.
Daryl: After destroying the cave and the mansion.
Brev Work Computer: As he should. He knew his part. And then I love that Superman looks at the other people and and just holding Bruce in his arms says, don't touch him. And I just love that.
DarthSylar: It's like he... It's the Clark that's, it again, that part of the fight was breaking down that sort of veneer of the American way that he's been portrayed in.
DarthSylar: It's like the armor's off, like similar to Batman's armor is broken in in this in the fight. It's like he's he's laid bare.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: it It's Clark. It's the Superman holding his friend.
DarthSylar: Again, like as I said, it's operatic.
Brev Work Computer: it it
DarthSylar: It's like it's a Greek tragedy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. And I love the fact that like, as this story unfolds and you begin to think about it, you think about like, like Superman is just sort of this idealized thing, what everybody should be.
Brev Work Computer: But Batman is a thing that you actually can be. How do you help your neighbors?
Daryl: Mm-hmm.
Brev Work Computer: How do you help your neighborhood?
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Which is why Batman works best in Gotham, right? When he goes on space adventures and everything like that. sure sure It's like, it's like, it's like Spider-Man outside of New York. Sure. That's fun. But New York is his home.
Brev Work Computer: Daredevil outside of hell's kitchen. Let's stay in hell's kitchen. This is probably best. It's because it's the idea that I am doing what I can to help my community, to help the people that are around me, to keep them safe, to keep law and order there.
Brev Work Computer: Where Superman's just more of this idealized, like super powerful God. And he's trying to help everybody too. Yeah. But I mean, like it's total power fantasy, right?
DarthSylar: could help He can help a lot more, and he can do a lot more, but it's more on a macro scale.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, exactly.
DarthSylar: Batman is a micro scale. Just as strong, but different scales.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: Yep. And then we we get the the kicker at the end.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, which was great.
DarthSylar: The funeral.
Daryl: we we get We get the funeral.
DarthSylar: And the panels... We've mentioned the panels before, but this is probably when it becomes the most cinematic.
Brev Work Computer: yeah yeah
Daryl: you have Selena ready to go bare knuckle, toe to toe against Superman.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. think And Gordon's like, stop.
DarthSylar: there ah like
Brev Work Computer: It's not here. Not here. Right.
DarthSylar: like
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: cause guess And this this is a Selena who's definitely not in the same shape as Batman, able to to tangle.
Brev Work Computer: No.
Daryl: New.
DarthSylar: But she's still feisty.
Daryl: But she's...
DarthSylar: And
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. This is, this is Selena Kyle before Ozempic.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And then we start to get some more Batman narration.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: that he didn't time things quite right. And then we get that heart monitor again.
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
DarthSylar: it's just like...
DarthSylar: And we then we get a thought of Superman and we get mostly his ears sort like tricking up.
Daryl: And...
Brev Work Computer: Yep. And he sees Carrie.
Daryl: And that then he he sees Carrie heavily disguised and just looks at her and winks.
Brev Work Computer: Kelly. Yeah. Carrie. Oh, yeah. Totally.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. which tells the audience that Clark has grown throughout this, that Clark at the beginning of this story would have probably opened up the casket and said, you know, you're, I know you're still alive.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: We're going to jail or prison, but Clark now realizes.
Daryl: Yep, you're coming with me.
DarthSylar: yeah i got i go to i have i take I'm taking you to President Reagan himself so that he can suck up your soul because he's a zombie.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Brev Work Computer: That's right. But, but now, but now this Clark is like, nah, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear anything.
Daryl: Yep, um I'm going to go on.
DarthSylar: again it's it's and Again, it's subtle.
Daryl: You do you.
DarthSylar: it's like if you If you know Superman, you know that he has super hearing, so he's hearing that. And it's like,
DarthSylar: is ah that Just a quick look. is just All you need to know is like that's good. that That's solid.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, it shows that Miller has a little bit of respect for Clark.
Daryl: And that we...
Brev Work Computer: Like he doesn't completely hate Superman.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: He doesn't vilify him in this moment that he could, but instead he's like, you know what, I'm going to honor.
DarthSylar: In fact, he vilified him. It's sort of Superman went through the Redemption arc.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, absolutely. He did. Yes.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Had to have it beaten into him.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: But yeah, he had to do the unthinkable, which was kill his friend.
DarthSylar: Sometimes that
Brev Work Computer: He had to believe he killed his friend, which would have just absolutely eviscerated Clark.
DarthSylar: yeah two two
Brev Work Computer: That he.
DarthSylar: To learn that lesson. To to to to accept that lesson and sort of and also to allow Batman to continue what he's doing.
Brev Work Computer: hmm.
DarthSylar: Batman had to die.
Brev Work Computer: Mm hmm. Exactly.
Daryl: Yep. And we then we close with Bruce, what Batman, whichever you want to consider him in civilian clothes with Robin and the sons of Batman in another part of the cave planning for the future.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Bruce Mann, Man Wayne...
Brev Work Computer: Bruce B.
Daryl: And we get a we get a mirror of a refrain that's been going through the whole series.
DarthSylar: Yes.
Daryl: That when he's racing the car and this would be a good death, and but not good enough.
DarthSylar: yes
Daryl: And later, you know this would be a stupid death. And now with all of these people around him and a plan for the future, this will be a good life.
Daryl: And... Thus ends one of the most influential comics ever.
DarthSylar: Period.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. Period. End of discussion. as I said at the beginning, wizard put it number three.
DarthSylar: I read...
Brev Work Computer: As much as I love mouse, I think mouse is fantastic. I don't read mouse very, i don't read mouse very often.
DarthSylar: Oh, Mouse is fantastic. But... Well, you shouldn't.
Daryl: yeah
DarthSylar: Honestly, like, twice is enough for me, and, like, I had to read...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yeah.
DarthSylar: I had i read it once because I wanted to read it and again for high school. So it's like... Yeah! Not a fun read.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. No.
DarthSylar: Good book. Not fun
Brev Work Computer: And I, and and I love Watchmen. Uh, but I think I, the dark night returns is easier to get through and it's also shorter.
DarthSylar: Yeah, it's true, but it's also, it's there's no denying it is truly just one of those works in comic book fiction that carries a long standard, that it has influenced its iconography, and for better for worse, it's it has created a large amount of like discourse and discussion.
Brev Work Computer: Um,
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: It will never not be in print.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Daryl: No.
Brev Work Computer: It's like the dark side of the moon.
Daryl: it, hit
Brev Work Computer: the the The dark side of the moon will always be in print as will the Dark Knight Return.
DarthSylar: and know ah never not be it will never not be referenced, almost, discussed, and often misinterpreted.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. Yes, that's true.
Brev Work Computer: yep yes that's true
Daryl: Yep, it has been a touchstone for the Batman books for 40 years. um I recently saw an interview with Matt Fraction, who's currently writing the newly rere re-launched Batman title, that...
Brev Work Computer: Yep.
Daryl: ah said that he saw Frank Miller at a convention recently and he's like, I i totally stole the TV screens doing some of the exposition from Dark Knight.
Daryl: And Miller's like, it's yours. Do it. Go, go.
Brev Work Computer: Yep. yep i you know, I am enjoying that.
DarthSylar: Again, like, it...
Brev Work Computer: I, I have enjoyed the fraction run so far.
DarthSylar: Frexton has been good.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, um and it has been good.
Daryl: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: And I, as we, as we talked about before, either I can't remember before on the show, I've really liked absolute Batman, which definitely takes lessons from this book.
DarthSylar: Oh, Absolute...
Daryl: Oh, it absolutely does.
DarthSylar: Absolute...
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: Absolute Batman's currently, like, my favorite book currently right now.
Brev Work Computer: That's a great one. And absolute wonder woman we talked about is also a huge, just fantastic.
DarthSylar: Yep. Absolute Wonder Woman is, like... I think it's the best Wonder Woman we've had in, like, a decade.
Brev Work Computer: I couldn't tell you, but this has been great.
Daryl: yeahp and
Brev Work Computer: Um, cause she's not really a character I read a lot of.
DarthSylar: I don't...
Brev Work Computer: So.
DarthSylar: Again, that I haven't... it I... There's... Honestly, I can't even remember the last co good runs he's had. not Not to say that it's this good, whereas I love everything they're doing.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: um i I might be biased, but I would say Perez.
Brev Work Computer: Well, yeah you are you are a Paris slut.
DarthSylar: is good, Paris is good.
Brev Work Computer: yeah We know that. you were to
Daryl: I am. I am.
Brev Work Computer: yeah
Daryl: I really am.
Brev Work Computer: It's hard to not be. It's hard to not be, though. The man who could draw anything. It's sick. um But yeah.
Daryl: and And I also think that it it's probably fair to say that Carrie Kelly will return in Avengers Doomsday. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: specific Love it.
Daryl: But no, it it seriously does have... heaven It's still referenced today.
DarthSylar: It holds up and it'll be referenced going forward and...
Brev Work Computer: It feels as fresh today as it did when it came out, even if it's set in 1986.
Daryl: It does.
DarthSylar: It has a...
Daryl: There are some things that
Brev Work Computer: Sure. Yes. Yep.
DarthSylar: even with Even with the very much it is dated by its but it's references for the time, but it has timeless themes.
Brev Work Computer: yes
Daryl: it Yeah, it's, i as I was reading it again this time, every time the newscasts were on, I was like, oh yeah, these are newscasts that I saw last night on the evening news.
DarthSylar: Hang
Brev Work Computer: What's old is new again.
DarthSylar: Hang It's again, like a lot of people say, like oh, you should try and set it set your story to be timeless. it's like Timelessness isn't it isn't a time period. it is a it is a think It's theming.
Brev Work Computer: Correct.
DarthSylar: History doesn't necessarily repeat, but it does rhyme.
Daryl: yeah
Brev Work Computer: It's like poetry. It rhymes. okay it's I don't know why I didn't think you wouldn't you wouldn't have that. So, yeah.
Daryl: that We use it so much on Clone Watch.
Brev Work Computer: I bet you do. Yeah. Well, gentlemen, this has been a lot of fun, but it has been oh two almost almost go we're going on with three Yeah.
Daryl: Two and a half hours. yeah i and didn't expect...
DarthSylar: I think this is they're not our longest, but definitely a strong one.
Brev Work Computer: yes
Daryl: I did not expect to keep you up this late, Brev. So thank you for for sticking with us.
Brev Work Computer: you know
DarthSylar: Thank you very much.
Daryl: um Before we go, where can everyone find you and your illustrious co-hosts?
Brev Work Computer: Absolutely. Thank you, Daryl. Yes, I am one of the the three headed monsters of hosts on the Movie Defenders. And you can find us at themoviedefenders at libsyn.com where you'll find all 200 and 20 ish episodes where we review movies from a positive point of view. And we have a blast. Both these fine gentlemen and Stephanie, ah the wife of Daryl, are director tiers. So they come on once a year at least and talk about movies, although we are going to get a special episode. Daryl, we're going it happen for kids in the whole brain candy.
Daryl: Yes, we must.
Brev Work Computer: um We must. going need to do that this year.
Daryl: i Even if it's backlot tour, I don't care. We got to do brain candy.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah. You, me, Tyler, my brother, uh, and Doug are the people that I know the most that love that movie the most. So we got to do that. Um, and so, yeah, you can find us there. We're on Spotify, uh, as the movie defenders and also, on wherever you can get, uh, Apple, Apple ah podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts of choice. And, um,
Brev Work Computer: dooo do dod do We also or we have a discord. You can find that link in the show notes for any episode you download. And also we're pretty prolific on Facebook. um So you can find us there, the movie defenders and then slash discussion group where we talk about all sorts of stuff. So come join us there.
Daryl: Yep, it's it's an awful lot of fun. And we we try to, you with our with our own brand ah of snark and and silliness, follow that same, you let's focus on the stuff that we like here on on Casual Nerdity.
Brev Work Computer: Mm-hmm. Oh.
Daryl: And it it is you know very much so inspired by by the movie defenders in that respect.
DarthSylar: one If we wanted to raise about things we didn't didn't like, we would have been talking about Batman v Superman.
Daryl: so if Well, and and it would also require us to sit in front of walls of Funko Pops and or in the front seat of a pickup truck.
DarthSylar: Or inside of a trap.
Daryl: ah
Brev Work Computer: I'm not getting that reference, but I'm tired.
Daryl: But,
Brev Work Computer: What was it? Where were we referencing?
Daryl: oh, just you so many of the of the rage baiters have walls of Funko Pops behind them. Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Ah, got it. I have one in front of me.
DarthSylar: or in their pickup trucks.
Brev Work Computer: yeah Yes, i you know, I have, I am guilty of of giving too much of my algorithm to a few of those guys. And I've had moments where I'll give you all quick one. I know we got to get going, but ah the recent the recent Chip Zdarsky Captain America run,
Brev Work Computer: I thought it looked kind of interesting, but I was listening to these guys and got too far into their their their brainwashing techniques. And they were like, oh, there is trash it's trash. It's This is awful. duda-da done And I was like, okay, that's disappointing.
Brev Work Computer: And then hey got got they about four or five issues in. And I was looking. i was like, I think it actually looks kind of cool. And then I read the first issue on Marvel United or Unlimited. And then I read all the way through issue four. And I was like, fuck.
Brev Work Computer: I missed the ball on this one. This is great. And so then I went and bought every issue.
DarthSylar: and sometimes so Sometimes you gotta like, again like it this is both for good and for ill.
Brev Work Computer: What's right?
DarthSylar: There are plenty of ways to get caught up in like what the discourse is when honestly, sometimes you just gotta gamble and like take it take a read and see what hits.
DarthSylar: like You can't really trust, there's no such thing as unbiased criticism sometimes.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah, no, you're, you're absolutely right.
Daryl: Yep.
Brev Work Computer: In fact, I got to the point where these guys do a weekly sort of wi's what's, what's, uh, you know, kind of recap what the best issues of the week from yeah independent publishers, Marvel and DC.
Brev Work Computer: And it's got to the point after a couple months listening to them, I'm like, you guys just talk about the same issues that same, same comic books every time, every same same runs. And it's like, you never branch out to anything different. That means that this show has now become boring because I can predict every issue you're going like and which ones you're not.
DarthSylar: Yeah.
Brev Work Computer: So, I'm kind of done. So the rage baiting is what it is. So yeah, I'd much rather spend two and a half, three hours talking about something that love and I hope it inspires somebody else to read it or watch it, listen to it, whatever.
DarthSylar: I get like.
Brev Work Computer: And like have do that. And I'd rather have that. and
DarthSylar: Our talking isn't a substitute for it, but so go ahead and, as you said, it's going to be in print forever.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
DarthSylar: So go ahead whenever you listen to this. And if you want to, i we do recommend it.
Daryl: Yeah.
DarthSylar: But like just that, there you go. But again, if you don't do it, that it that's that's just up to you.
Daryl: Well, it's like I just said one of one of these last few days on social media to somebody who was asking about the Jessica Jones TV show. And I was like, I don't like Bendis characters, period.
Daryl: It took me a couple of months to get through season one. And that was for the supporting characters and David Tennant. And I didn't watch seasons two or three, but... You're the one who has said you like the character. You're the only one who can say whether or not you like the show, so give it a try.
DarthSylar: Exactly.
Brev Work Computer: yeah i've forgotten just do your yeah i forgot your loathing of bendis
Daryl: Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that you're not going to like it. I'm some random stranger on the internet.
Daryl: ah
DarthSylar: Oh, you have no idea.
Daryl: Ugh.
Brev Work Computer: yes
Daryl: I don't know.
DarthSylar: he's...
Brev Work Computer: he doesn't bother me like he bothers you i'm i'm i mean i'm not i'm not one that's like man i gotta read everything he's ever written but he doesn't bother me ah
DarthSylar: he
Daryl: he He is he's the worst contemporary comics writer I've read, and that's saying a lot.
DarthSylar: I understand. ah general they but it did like at it
Brev Work Computer: Wow, that is saying a lot. There's some bad ones.
DarthSylar: But this was a good talk, everybody.
Brev Work Computer: Yes.
Daryl: It was. it it was great having you on to... to wax nostalgic and poetical about the dark night at 40.
Brev Work Computer: Yeah.
Daryl: And so we want to thank you for joining us. We want to thank everybody listening for joining us on casual nerdity.
DarthSylar: Thank you, Brev.
Daryl: Be sure. And here's where I have to do my ad now.
Brev Work Computer: Of course.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: Be sure to follow us on socials, Facebook, Instagram threads, blue sky and Twitter X, whatever it's being called this week.
DarthSylar: Mm-hmm.
Daryl: ah We are Casual Nerdity on all of them but Blue Sky. And on Blue Sky, we are CasualNerdity.com. ah Support the show by ordering a shirt from our merch store at store.casualnerdity.com. We have a couple of show-inspired ones, and we have some ah some Star Wars-inspired ones, a Fight the Empire and a Resistance is Not Terrorism.
Daryl: ah from recent episodes of Clone Wars. And you can also help the podcast get a larger reach by giving us a hopefully good review on your podcast platform of choice.
Daryl: Or if you're listening through YouTube, do all of those cliched YouTube things like liking, subscribing, getting notifications, because we want all of those algorithms to do the algorithm-y thing and get more eyes and ears.
DarthSylar: Sacrifice your firstborn.
Daryl: No, don't sacrifice your firstborn. Do your second.
Brev Work Computer: Don't tempt me. No, I like the second one. He's good.
Daryl: Oh, you like the second one?
Brev Work Computer: Don't, don't.
Daryl: I know that the third is your favorite. so
Brev Work Computer: Well, of course she is. Cause she's the only G.
Daryl: it
DarthSylar: Bye.
Brev Work Computer: All right.
Daryl: But thank thank you all for listening.
Brev Work Computer: well
Daryl: Until next time, we'll see you then. bye
DarthSylar: i
Brev Work Computer: Bye.
