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The Dark Knight Returns at 40
5 Plays1 minute ago
Daryl & Nick welcome special guest Brev from The Movie Defenders podcast to celebrate 40 years of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. Join us as we revisit Frank Miller’s iconic vision of an older, battle-worn Batman, its lasting impact on the Dark Knight mythos, and why this legendary story still defines Gotham decades later.
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Transcript
Introduction and Setup
00:00:29
Daryl
Welcome back to Casual Nerdity, everybody. ah We are giving Clone Watch a break again this week because, well, Lauren's not here. Lauren is off traveling the the wilds as a friend is moving.
00:00:44
Daryl
So it's not Chicago.
00:00:44
DarthSylar
Of Chicago.
00:00:48
Daryl
It's just Illinois. We've had this conversation 27 times. but I'm here. I'm Daryl.
00:00:58
Daryl
Nick is here. hi Nick.
00:01:00
DarthSylar
Yep, I'm Nick.
00:01:02
Daryl
And we have back with us once again, very special guest star, Brev. Welcome, Brev.
00:01:09
Brev Work Computer
Hello, thank you.
00:01:09
DarthSylar
Brav. Brav.
00:01:11
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. woa whoa Thanks for having me back, gentlemen. And I'm using that term very loosely with you two.
00:01:14
Daryl
Oh, very, very loosely.
00:01:15
Brev Work Computer
So very
Comic Book Discussions Begin
00:01:18
Brev Work Computer
loosely.
00:01:18
Daryl
It's always a pleasure to have you back because...
00:01:20
DarthSylar
Yes.
00:01:21
Daryl
it' It's always great talking with you, whatever we're talking about, but there's a pattern developing, if anyone is paying attention. Brev is here, which means we're talking comics today.
00:01:31
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, comic books. Love comic books.
00:01:34
Daryl
Comics!
00:01:35
Brev Work Computer
Yes, it's the best.
00:01:36
Daryl
And at ah there's no spoiler because it's in the episode title, but what we're going to be talking about today is we will be talking about the Dark Knight Returns turning
00:01:38
Brev Work Computer
okay
00:01:51
Brev Work Computer
Which is weird because I'm 48. Yes. Yes. eight
00:01:57
Brev Work Computer
ah
00:01:59
Daryl
Let me put it this way. You know me, Brev. You know that my all-time favorite comic is New Teen Titans.
00:02:01
Brev Work Computer
okay yes
00:02:05
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:02:05
Daryl
And in 1988, when Action Comics 600 hit, and you I'm all of 18, I'm like, wow, 50 years. That's inconceivable.
00:02:19
Daryl
We are closing in fast on New Teen Titans being 50.
00:02:24
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. Yes, we are. I'm still saying we we need to do a show.
00:02:26
Daryl
We are fast.
00:02:28
Brev Work Computer
It's dedicated to rereading the Teen Titans.
00:02:31
Daryl
Oh, i I still absolutely plan to and want to. i
00:02:36
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
00:02:37
Daryl
just need need to make sure.
00:02:38
DarthSylar
You've been pitching it to us every just about every other week.
00:02:42
Daryl
yep we we need to make sure that Betsy has copies to read.
00:02:42
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:02:46
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:02:47
Daryl
And ah if Nick is going to join us, it Nick has copies to read. And I...
00:02:53
DarthSylar
I'll have to read them for the first time.
00:02:56
Brev Work Computer
Oh, even better.
00:02:56
Daryl
Ooh!
Teen Titans and Comic Publishing
00:02:59
Daryl
Yes!
00:02:59
Brev Work Computer
It's been a long time since I read them. And was I got the they did a whole bunch of trades few years ago and they went through all all the way through through volume 14. And that's what I i got through volume 14.
00:03:09
Brev Work Computer
And I was like waiting for 15 and then they never did it. And so like that whole run of new Titans with the wildebeest hunt and all that, they never are Titans hunt.
00:03:12
DarthSylar
thanks I think my first
00:03:17
Brev Work Computer
They they have still haven't reprinted it yet.
00:03:19
DarthSylar
think my first like actual Teentide's book was the one where Cyborg was absorbing the moon.
00:03:19
Daryl
they are They are about to.
00:03:29
Daryl
Oh, so that's like, that's like, that's JLA Titans.
00:03:33
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:03:34
DarthSylar
Yeah, I think that was my first one.
00:03:34
Daryl
yeah
Monetization and Algorithms
00:03:36
Daryl
that So Brev, you are in luck. They announced the first ah new Titans reprint volume here just recently.
00:03:44
Brev Work Computer
No shit. Are we allowed to curse? I forget on your show.
00:03:47
Daryl
Yeah.
00:03:48
Brev Work Computer
Okay. All right.
00:03:48
Daryl
I mean, if if if we if we weren't, then you know Betsy has broken that rule plenty of times.
00:03:54
Brev Work Computer
Oh, that's right.
00:03:55
DarthSylar
Multiple times.
00:03:56
Daryl
ah
00:03:57
Brev Work Computer
All right. Okay. Fucking a.
00:03:58
Daryl
now of what What I think it is, is since we also post to YouTube, it has to get through the first couple of minutes before we really can.
00:03:58
Brev Work Computer
All right. Hmm.
Comic Collections and Announcements
00:04:08
Brev Work Computer
Okay.
00:04:08
Daryl
And then the algorithm stops looking for it.
00:04:10
Brev Work Computer
Excellent. Excellent. i think we're past a couple minutes, so we're good. Yeah.
00:04:13
Daryl
Yep. Yep, we are. Yeah.
00:04:14
Brev Work Computer
Dude, I'm looking it up right now.
00:04:14
Daryl
they
00:04:15
Brev Work Computer
This is, oh, you see, yeah, I see that they had the new omnibuses, which I've become like this omnibus slut, but it's mostly for the Claremont run of of Uncanny X-Men.
00:04:26
Brev Work Computer
Duh. But like, I've got most of those. And then a few other things, my kids are always coming here and man, how much money have you spent on this? go Don't worry about it. you You need to get a scholarship to go to college. But like,
00:04:37
Brev Work Computer
Then I started like, man, maybe maybe I should replay, re-buy, you know, because I'm done with money. All these Teen Titan ones as well in the omnibus version.
00:04:45
DarthSylar
Yeah, this has them to get an apprenticeship.
00:04:48
Brev Work Computer
There you go. That's the way to do it. Yes, an apprenticeship. Yes. So anyway, okay, cool.
00:04:52
Daryl
But yeah, the Yeah, they just announced the first New Titans omnibus starting with New Titans 50 when Perez came back. And they did Who is Wonder Girl?
00:05:03
Daryl
And Perez quickly left again.
00:05:04
Brev Work Computer
I remember those. Yes. Yeah.
00:05:07
DarthSylar
Did do they ever figure out what was going on with the Troy?
00:05:08
Brev Work Computer
yeah
00:05:10
DarthSylar
Or is it just never figured out?
00:05:13
Daryl
um Flip a coin. Because...
00:05:17
DarthSylar
you did that that's That's Robert's thing, Daryl.
00:05:17
Daryl
they
00:05:21
Daryl
Because they with who is
00:05:22
DarthSylar
Because you know I can't flip a coin. I tried it several times.
00:05:25
Daryl
with who is Wonder Girl, they gave her her post-crisis origin. And it was fine. everything Everything was hunky-dory. It was still tied to Greek myth because ah they included the Titans of Myth in there. And you know there was no need for a Wonder Woman connection. There was still no real reason why she called herself Wonder Girl since in that continuity she appeared. before Wonder Woman still, but hey, comics.
Frank Miller's Influence
00:05:54
Daryl
And
00:05:55
DarthSylar
I didn't mean to actually ask you the question. I meant just ah hypothetical because we do have it we do have a podcast to I did.
00:05:58
Daryl
and and then...
00:06:00
DarthSylar
I did.
00:06:00
Daryl
we we'll Yeah, we'll we'll get you You pulled this trigger, Nick.
00:06:01
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:06:05
DarthSylar
i did i did
00:06:07
Daryl
Then and John Byrne took over Wonder Woman and decided that he needed to make Donna's history insanely convoluted.
00:06:08
DarthSylar
um i was
00:06:17
Daryl
So he did. And then killed her off again. hurt killed her off or something. And then she died in the Titans Young Justice crossover.
00:06:31
Daryl
And then she came back. And the current the current definitive origin last year's um Titans annual was by Phil Jimenez.
00:06:34
Brev Work Computer
Just comics.
00:06:44
Daryl
And it is her current origin. she's She's back to Wonder Woman having rescued her because Wonder Woman didn't debut way after Batman and Superman anymore.
00:06:56
Daryl
And it's just it's an incredible, wonderful story. And I read it, and there were invisible ninjas cutting onions right in my face while I was reading it.
00:07:06
Brev Work Computer
all Oh.
00:07:07
Daryl
um it It was truly wonderful. that The framing sequence was, you you recall, Brev, how the who is Donna Troy issue had Dick investigating her background and she found out about her birth mother who had died and then her second, her first adoptive family and all of that.
00:07:15
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah. Oh.
00:07:27
Daryl
ah Well, she's on the search for her birth father.
00:07:33
Daryl
And, you know, she's she's been contacted by her birth father. And is on her way to meet him for the first time and ruminating about her past history.
00:07:46
Brev Work Computer
Nice.
00:07:46
Daryl
And it's it is a beautiful story.
00:07:49
Brev Work Computer
that came out last year.
00:07:51
Daryl
Yeah, it was the Titans 2025 annual.
00:07:54
Brev Work Computer
All right. I might have to, I, I was getting Titans and then i was just kind like, and then I thought, well, and then I wanted to get, I think I'm just going to get DC infinite.
00:08:07
Daryl
Nice. and It might be on there.
00:08:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. I've got Marvel unlimited. I think it might be a Marvel unlimited. I've had, I've had that for years and that's saved me a bunch of money. I'm reading old stories there that to go back and buy, but yeah.
00:08:19
Daryl
there's There's a beautiful scene where after the the Teen Titans first have their first mission, Dick invites them for a sleepover in the Batcave.
00:08:31
Brev Work Computer
Nice.
00:08:32
DarthSylar
That's nice.
00:08:33
Daryl
And Batman doesn't know.
00:08:34
Brev Work Computer
oh No, no, it's going to get in trouble.
00:08:37
Daryl
And Batman comes home. Alfred knows, but Batman doesn't know.
00:08:41
Brev Work Computer
Of course.
00:08:42
Daryl
And so, you know, he...
00:08:43
DarthSylar
They all die and are cloned.
00:08:46
Daryl
No, and so Donna stands up for Dick. You know, she's like, he just wants friends.
00:08:51
Brev Work Computer
Yes, she does. No. Oh.
00:08:55
Daryl
ah So it it's a great story. It's a great story. Anyway, on to our topic here.
00:09:00
Brev Work Computer
Ooh.
00:09:04
Daryl
Dark Knight Returns at 40. So let let me paint a scene here. I actually i actually made notes so that we can kind of do a setup.
00:09:10
Brev Work Computer
who
00:09:11
DarthSylar
oh
00:09:12
Daryl
It's all fancy. So it's March 20th, 1986, and it's just two weeks after DC wrapped up Crisis on Infinite Earths.
00:09:14
Brev Work Computer
Yes, it is. Oh, yeah.
00:09:25
Brev Work Computer
yes it is
00:09:25
Daryl
And now on Comic Shop's shelves is Batman The Dark Knight Returns number one. And Frank Miller, rising superstar at the time, fresh off of Daredevil, he brings in this four-issue vision of an aging Batman.
00:09:41
Brev Work Computer
oh yeah
00:09:42
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:09:49
Daryl
Bruce Wayne, whose decades passed his prime, and I have words about that in a little bit, dragged out of...
00:09:54
Brev Work Computer
A little too close to home, Daryl?
00:09:57
Daryl
ah Yeah, just a little. And he's dragged out of retirement because Gotham has gotten that bad again. And it gave us a brand new format.
00:10:09
Daryl
hub This was the first time that we'd had that square bound, thicker paper, glossy, all of that. The industry didn't even have a name for it. People just kept calling it the Dark Knight format until other publishers started using it. And they're like, we can't call this Dark Knight format.
00:10:27
Daryl
We're not going to advertise DC when we're Marvel.
00:10:30
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:10:32
Daryl
And it was, are you ready for this? It was $2.95 an issue.
00:10:39
Brev Work Computer
I was just telling you guys before the show started, I was complaining that the recent uncanny X-Men is now 699. And I'm like, yeah.
00:10:47
DarthSylar
Back in my day,
00:10:51
Daryl
Yeah, I mean, well, if you if you think about it, at the time, the the average comic was, what was it still 75 cents?
00:10:59
Brev Work Computer
70 cents, 70 cents. I remember I started collecting. They went from, I think from 75 to a dollar and the premium books, like things like alpha flight and cloak and dagger, you know, the shit nobody was buying.
Comic Pricing and Economics
00:11:12
Brev Work Computer
Um, they were a buck 25.
00:11:12
DarthSylar
When I started getting into it the it was it
00:11:13
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yep. yeah
00:11:15
Daryl
Oh.
00:11:19
DarthSylar
fifty to like two and then like you got to like five in the in the ten s
00:11:24
Daryl
now Now that I think about it, I know that it that they were still 75 cents because when DC launched their higher end New Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes, those were $1.25, $1.50.
00:11:40
Daryl
And they were like, but it's on better paper, better coloring, et cetera. And then they launched a mid-grade format for like young all-stars.
00:11:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:11:50
Daryl
And that was a buck.
00:11:54
Daryl
It was right in between.
00:11:54
Brev Work Computer
Yes. They felt like they were a dollar for so long. And I know that I'm like, you know, I even got into a discussion with Tom Brevoort once on Twitter about this.
00:12:04
Brev Work Computer
Like, I remember when comics were a dollar. Why, why, why do they got to be $5? And was like, well, at one point in time, cars weren't that expensive or, you know, whatever. Or the homes weren't that expensive.
00:12:12
DarthSylar
and that's That's everything. That's inflation and market prices.
00:12:15
Brev Work Computer
I'm like, yeah.
00:12:15
Daryl
Well, i as much as i as much as I hate to say that, well, I don't know about now.
00:12:16
DarthSylar
It's ah that
00:12:21
Daryl
I haven't had him do this lately. But in the 90s, when prices were going up, I had said something about it. And my dad used to work in the pre-press business.
00:12:33
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
00:12:34
Daryl
And so he's like, well, let let me see one. And he looked at it and he he looked it. the the paper and the print quality and all of that. And remember when they used to have to legally run the circulation information once a year?
00:12:50
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Mm-hmm.
00:12:52
Daryl
So he said, well, you know, if I knew what the circulation was like, hang on, I went and got one of those. And he's like, okay, if if this is an average book and these are this is the average circulation and this is the, yeah, they're priced right.
00:13:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:13:08
Daryl
i was like, oh, okay. But even...
00:13:11
DarthSylar
Or was your dad working for big comics?
00:13:14
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Your dad was in on it, Daryl.
00:13:16
Daryl
Oh, I wish.
00:13:18
Brev Work Computer
Life would have been so much different, right?
00:13:22
Daryl
it's It would. Now, even at that small fortune 86 of 295 issue,
00:13:29
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:13:30
Daryl
it it was a hit and it was also a reinvention yeah In the same way that Crisis reshaped the whole DC universe, Dark Knight Returns kind of redefined Batman.
00:13:45
Daryl
Darker, older, more myth. ah As I was rereading it this week, I'm honestly starting to think that parts of Dark Knight Returns is where Denny O'Neill got his whole, oh no, no, everybody thinks Batman is an urban myth thing.
00:14:02
Brev Work Computer
Possibly.
00:14:03
Daryl
And... um
00:14:04
DarthSylar
it's it's I can agree with that. like it There's definitely from that all the way going back to the Ozy origin in Detective Comics, but it definitely was reinforced here.
00:14:18
Daryl
Well, I mean, you it a couple just a few years later in Tim Drake's origin, part of how he figures out who Batman and Robin are is watching footage of them on the news.
00:14:34
Daryl
And this is right in the heart of Denny O'Neill's no, no, Batman is an urban legend kick.
00:14:37
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:14:39
DarthSylar
yeah
00:14:41
Daryl
But now we're 40 years later and we're going to go back and take a look at the Dark Knight Returns at 40 years old.
00:14:50
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:14:52
Daryl
And so I did take some notes as I was rereading. I broke them down based on issue, but we don't have to talk about it that way. We can talk about you just whatever aspects of it we want to.
00:15:03
DarthSylar
and then And there's still like
Cinematic Nature of The Dark Knight Returns
00:15:06
DarthSylar
there's also the meta commentary on what it meant for comics as well.
00:15:09
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah.
00:15:10
Daryl
absolutely. Absolutely.
00:15:11
DarthSylar
This is ah this is ah not just a major impact for the Batman franchise, but it's also a, and I spent a while trying to trying to pronounce this correctly, a seminal work in the annals of comic history.
00:15:28
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, you you you can't you you can't you can't understate that.
00:15:28
Daryl
It's a good thing that you said annals right.
00:15:32
DarthSylar
I say if anyone's so and all.
00:15:34
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:15:34
DarthSylar
I spent a long time trying to pronounce that correctly and I have a speech impediment.
00:15:37
Brev Work Computer
not not Not seminal.
00:15:40
DarthSylar
That's what I'm trying to avoid.
00:15:41
Daryl
Yes.
00:15:42
DarthSylar
have a speech impediment so i did I spent some time trying to say correctly.
00:15:48
Brev Work Computer
yeah
00:15:50
Daryl
ah
00:15:50
Brev Work Computer
No, it's all good. You know, this this was, you know... Nick, I don't, I don't really, i don't know how old you are, but I know that it really upsets me when I see Frank Miller was like less than 30 years old when, when he made this and I'm going like, I'm well past that point.
00:16:04
Daryl
Yes.
00:16:05
Brev Work Computer
What have I done with my life?
00:16:06
DarthSylar
I'm 33 but I already recognize that that my life's not going anywhere.
00:16:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:16:12
DarthSylar
I'm happy where it is.
00:16:14
Brev Work Computer
And it just, and when I see things like this and I'm like, wow, that's just, I mean, to think about like, he was this like what, 18 year old kid that, that made it into Marvel comics and had such a success with Daredevil that he would.
00:16:22
DarthSylar
yeah
00:16:28
DarthSylar
its And his impact. He he inspired the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with his Daredevil run.
00:16:31
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:16:34
Brev Work Computer
Exactly. Yeah.
00:16:36
DarthSylar
like Even without putting pen to paper, he inspired other people to put pen to paper. I just accept that I'm just going to live my life doing whatever I'm doing.
00:16:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:16:49
DarthSylar
do it
00:16:49
Brev Work Computer
It's D and D and porn all night long. And that's fine. That's great. I mean, I enjoy that too, but yeah.
00:16:53
Daryl
Exactly.
00:16:54
DarthSylar
you we're We're on the same page, yeah.
00:16:54
Daryl
i mean...
00:16:57
Brev Work Computer
yeah When the pages don't stick together. Yeah. So, but like, it's like, it's the case of like,
00:16:59
Daryl
Exactly. Exactly.
00:17:01
DarthSylar
that's that why That's why the internet is great.
00:17:03
Brev Work Computer
this
00:17:04
DarthSylar
There are different tabs.
00:17:05
Brev Work Computer
don't use, don't use my keyboard, but like, it's just a sick case so like, what a fantastic run he had on that. And then going over and just, he redefines Daredevil.
00:17:15
Brev Work Computer
Right. And he makes all those panels. So cinematic. I mean, this is like Citizen Kane, Greg Toland asks a cinematography with like this Orson Wellesian style.
00:17:25
Brev Work Computer
Like, where can I put the camera? And then he,
00:17:28
DarthSylar
and then And then he jumps right jumps completely other to the other side to a brand new story, and he and it's his first time at the run of the character, and he reinvents it and comics as a whole for a generation.
00:17:33
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:17:43
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:17:44
Daryl
Well, strictly speaking, Nick, it wasn't his first run at the character because there is the wanted Santa Claus dead or alive issue that he did the art for
00:17:48
Brev Work Computer
Right.
00:17:49
DarthSylar
True.
00:17:54
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:17:57
Brev Work Computer
And let's not forget that I think.
00:17:58
Daryl
a few years before that.
00:18:01
Brev Work Computer
Right around this time, hadn't he also done the Wolverine miniseries of Chris Claremont?
00:18:05
Daryl
Yes.
00:18:05
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:18:06
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, he did the War of Reader 2.
00:18:06
Daryl
Yeah.
00:18:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:18:08
Daryl
Yeah, so Daredevil and Wolverine were like a one-two punch at Marvel. And thinking thinking about him taking Daredevil and just knocking it out of the park and and putting the book in the stratosphere...
00:18:19
DarthSylar
Catapulting him into...
00:18:24
Daryl
there seemsbs In the 80s, there was a pattern of long-running Marvel characters that were just kind of barely chugging along and nobody really wanted them. And these these young upstarts who had not really done much of anything said, well, I'll take it And they ran with it because there's Miller on Daredevil.
00:18:50
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:18:50
Daryl
there's ah that's when That's exactly how Peter David came on Hulk.
00:18:52
DarthSylar
Is
00:18:55
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:18:56
DarthSylar
ah what isn' it the way Claremont started getting his early licks in?
00:19:00
Daryl
Oh, no. The 80s was when X-Men just skyrocketed and became a franchise.
00:19:07
Daryl
but But it had been a top seller at Marvel for... most of the 80s. Part of the reason Wolfman and Perez did Muting Titans the way they did at DC in 80 was a direct response to the success of X-Men.
00:19:07
DarthSylar
Oh, you're right, yeah.
00:19:26
Brev Work Computer
And it's <unk> if for an X-Men fan, long time X-Men fan. That's why i slide right into New Teen Titans. Like, boom, I got this. I know exactly what we're doing.
00:19:33
Daryl
Yeah.
00:19:34
Brev Work Computer
I even picked up a some Legion of Superheroes because I've heard that that's actually, if as an X-Men fan, probably enjoy that too. That's a little bit more.
00:19:41
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
00:19:42
Brev Work Computer
That's a lot going on. There's a lot of people, but that's okay.
00:19:44
Daryl
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:19:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. But I'm just sitting here thinking to myself, like... Frank Miller takes on Daredevil and takes him from B-list to iconic, takes on Wolverine from Team Bruiser to Laird antihero, and then he takes on Batman and traditional hero to the mythic grim legend that is now here today.
00:20:02
Brev Work Computer
That is one man that redefined three major characters in comic books.
00:20:07
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:20:08
Brev Work Computer
Oh, man.
00:20:08
Daryl
Yep.
00:20:09
DarthSylar
Again, like regardless of his... There could be a lot said about the legacy that he's left behind, but you could catadise that his he's earned his place in history, in comic book history, with with his especially his especially around this era.
00:20:22
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:20:24
Daryl
Absolutely.
00:20:27
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah, totally.
00:20:27
Daryl
And one that one thing that struck me, just even in the opening pages of this as I was rereading this week, it's become kind of the norm for comics to use what is now called a cinematic approach
Panel Structure and Storytelling
00:20:43
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm.
00:20:43
Daryl
to it.
00:20:44
Daryl
But this was...
00:20:44
DarthSylar
And that is also a thing that he was doing, like as you mentioned in his DareTel stuff. He was using some actual, he was bringing frames from from cinema into like the frames of a comic book.
00:20:57
Brev Work Computer
Correct.
00:20:58
Daryl
Oh yeah, this was so very this was very cinematic in the truest sense of it because there's some real cross-media stylization in there that you i I could see the movie in my head as I was reading.
00:21:10
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:21:16
Daryl
I could hear a lot of the characters in my head as if it was a movie, which doesn't always happen with a comic for me.
00:21:25
Brev Work Computer
No, no, it doesn't.
00:21:26
DarthSylar
Again, like, it it's...
00:21:27
Brev Work Computer
And what's that's great about the Dark Knight Returns is that he plays on the MTV video generation way we way we grew up looking at things um from that stylized point.
00:21:37
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
00:21:38
Brev Work Computer
But then also for the 16 grids here, 16 panel grid pages, which is through most of it. And then he'll have this explosion page where go like, oh, Oh, my God. And it really, but that that way, that splash page really hits you because your eyes get trained.
00:21:53
Brev Work Computer
Okay, this is going to be 16 panels across. Okay, cool, cool. Yeah, no problem, no problem. Close-ups, close-ups. It's fine. It's fine. read This is really good, really good. and then, boom, Batman's huge. He's got this grappling hook rifle.
00:22:05
Brev Work Computer
He's being dragged through the sky on a by a helicopter. And you're like, this is fucking great.
00:22:10
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
00:22:10
DarthSylar
It's
00:22:10
Brev Work Computer
It just explodes. Go ahead, Nick.
00:22:13
DarthSylar
it similar to like, ah to a similar around the same time, Wattsman, the fearful symmetry every moment of where like two page two pages are like replicated to create a longer story. This one is much more like, you know, every page is here your panel you're dragging down until the big pop page.
00:22:39
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:22:40
Daryl
And there's also this there's this futuristic look to it that made me... I had never really considered this this point until a week or two ago when I saw another anniversary analysis of the story on YouTube.
00:22:57
Daryl
So full credit to Owen Likes Comics for making me realize this.
00:23:01
Brev Work Computer
Oh, I watched this.
00:23:02
DarthSylar
Oh, I think I just watched that as well, yeah.
00:23:02
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Yes.
00:23:04
Daryl
that
00:23:05
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:23:06
Daryl
But you know it's a story about
00:23:07
DarthSylar
Shout out.
00:23:09
Daryl
an older Batman in the future, but that future is 1986. It's set around, it's set around 1986 or thereabouts.
00:23:17
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:23:22
Daryl
You there, there's not really any future tech beyond normal comics, super tech.
00:23:28
DarthSylar
Honestly, the the future that that it has is very reminiscent of...
00:23:28
Daryl
And,
00:23:36
DarthSylar
Of the... I completely lost it right now. Malcolm McDowell d movie.
00:23:44
Brev Work Computer
A clockwork orange?
00:23:45
Daryl
Oh.
00:23:46
DarthSylar
A Clockwork Orange.
00:23:48
Brev Work Computer
Interesting.
00:23:49
DarthSylar
it's sort of It's sort of like it's the future, but it's run down. It's not clean.
00:23:56
Brev Work Computer
It's dirty, gritty.
00:23:56
DarthSylar
And the clean parts are dirty, and the in the get the the the vernacular has changed, but it's like...
00:23:57
Daryl
Yeah.
00:24:03
Daryl
The vernacular's changed, but Reagan's president, all of the cultural touchstones are very 80s coded.
00:24:11
DarthSylar
It's still, like, recognizable as, like, this could happen in...
00:24:12
Daryl
And. Yeah.
00:24:16
DarthSylar
It's... it's 20 minutes into the future.
00:24:20
Brev Work Computer
o
00:24:21
DarthSylar
But it's like if 20 minutes was like 10 years.
00:24:21
Daryl
And
00:24:25
Daryl
ah one one of the things that that Owen mentioned is if you really if you look at the timeline, you know given how long they say that Batman was around, this is the future of the Golden or Silver Age Batman or the Adam West Batman.
00:24:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, yeah. That'd be 20 years after the Adam West Batman.
00:24:43
DarthSylar
Which can be seen.
00:24:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:24:45
Daryl
Yeah.
00:24:46
DarthSylar
and With, again, a lot of people consider this to be like the the antithesis of that.
00:24:46
Daryl
you know because he
00:24:51
DarthSylar
It's like, this is when Batman shed the the the Adam West sort of goofiness.
00:25:01
Daryl
yeah Yeah, even though it it hadn't been that in the books for quite a while, this is what shook that from the public consciousness.
00:25:10
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:25:11
Brev Work Computer
Well, yeah, because it just, it you know, like the first cover, you got this lightning bolt streaming through the sky, right?
00:25:16
DarthSylar
Oh, can we talk about that?
00:25:16
Brev Work Computer
And it's like Batman's jumping through.
00:25:17
Daryl
Yeah.
00:25:18
DarthSylar
That that's image is is is the the Dark Knight Returns.
00:25:19
Brev Work Computer
yeah it just, this this whole thing just came. ah
00:25:26
Brev Work Computer
yeah it's so fucking cool.
00:25:26
DarthSylar
it
00:25:27
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:25:27
DarthSylar
It is like the lightning bolt in the background, the cape in the background, this sort of streaking off of like a gargoyle.
00:25:28
Daryl
Yeah.
00:25:35
DarthSylar
That is the Batman image and ah in everyone's minds. It's been omas so many times. It's been even been omas in and recent... ah Some books like in the the absolute Batman books.
00:25:48
Brev Work Computer
e I think like this,
00:25:50
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
00:25:51
DarthSylar
You can't escape it, it's just that iconic.
00:25:53
Brev Work Computer
I think, but, but, but I think to Nick, to your point about, you know, in the public consciousness, Batman had been Adam West since 1966.
Batman’s Transformation and Media Portrayal
00:26:02
Brev Work Computer
And I love that. I love the show.
00:26:04
Brev Work Computer
I love the movie.
00:26:05
DarthSylar
Oh, it's hilarious.
00:26:05
Brev Work Computer
It's great.
00:26:07
DarthSylar
I love the fact that it came from those old serials, that they had no money, and that these old people were like, oh, this is hilarious.
00:26:10
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:26:15
DarthSylar
Let's make it into an absolute comedy show.
00:26:16
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:26:18
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's so it's so charming, right? You just you can't help it. You're smiling. You're having a good time. But the public consciousness, that's what they associate a Batman with.
00:26:24
DarthSylar
Everyone's having a good time. its it
00:26:27
Brev Work Computer
Whereas, you know, you know other to Daryl's point, though, like in the comics, they had kind of Denny O'Neill and and Neil Adams and those guys and other guys after that had had brought him back to the darker roots that he had been before.
00:26:39
DarthSylar
And the the classic roots was where...
00:26:40
Brev Work Computer
um But nobody knew that because nobody did just nobody getting it because many people outside of comic collectors didn't know that. But when this came around, this shook up the world or at least the United States and got people to look at who's Batman.
00:26:51
Brev Work Computer
Oh, bat I thought Batman was this comic book nerds knew like, no, no, no, that's that's not how that works. That's not who Batman is.
00:26:56
Daryl
I mean,
00:26:57
Brev Work Computer
But like the rest of the world now. real up Yeah, he's back.
00:27:00
DarthSylar
it's a major factor into getting getting the timbered movie off the ground.
00:27:03
Brev Work Computer
The Tim Burton movie. Yeah. Yes.
00:27:07
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:27:08
Daryl
at the time,
00:27:09
DarthSylar
It may not have spaced it off of this, but it was based off of like the more classic golden age, like Dark Knight Adventures. is like This was what helped jumpstart that back into the mainstream.
00:27:22
Daryl
Well, at the time, mainstream media articles about comics always went back to Adam West with their headlines because it was always like, pow, bam, you know comics aren't just for kids, you know, that kind of thing.
00:27:31
Brev Work Computer
Sure. oh
00:27:37
Brev Work Computer
Even with your onomatopoeias. Yeah.
00:27:39
Daryl
Yeah, and um this this also kind of, you for better or for worse, Dark Knight kind of also...
00:27:40
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:27:49
Daryl
fostered it you know i I say this as someone who was like this at the time because I was stupid teenage me. um and what The way I described when what I was posting dinosaur to school, yes.
00:27:58
DarthSylar
like Back when you were back taking a ah writing on a product. Yes.
00:28:03
Daryl
ah ah um yeah the The way I described it when I was posting about your most recent episode of Movie Defenders Backlot Tour, B'Rev,
00:28:13
Brev Work Computer
Yep. yep
00:28:14
Daryl
um that This was this and up to Batman 89 was kind of the heart of the fans screaming, please, God damn it, won't someone take these power fantasy morality plays created for children seriously.
00:28:32
Daryl
Fuck.
00:28:33
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:28:33
Daryl
And.
00:28:34
Brev Work Computer
ah
00:28:34
Daryl
ah
00:28:36
Brev Work Computer
Amazing, isn't it?
00:28:38
Daryl
And it this one did, but it didn't go to that extreme that we fanboys were were taking it.
00:28:49
Daryl
they
00:28:49
DarthSylar
It was, can acknowledge it.
00:28:50
Daryl
yeah We took it too seriously.
00:28:52
DarthSylar
I can acknowledge that it's like, but that was the first time were like, being seen seriously.
00:28:58
Daryl
Yeah.
00:28:59
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, being being taken ast being taken as an art form it's supposed to be looked at, yes.
00:28:59
Daryl
Yeah.
00:29:02
DarthSylar
For years, like, like a I remember, like, I found out my father had a whole lot of old school comics that he got rid of. was like, why did he get rid of them? It's like, well, I grew up. don't know. It's like, but Then did he value? Yeah, I learned a lot about life and stuff them, but like their kids stuff like.
00:29:25
Daryl
hu One thing, too, that I noticed as I was rereading, because it it had been a long time since I'd read the thing cover to cover again.
00:29:32
Brev Work Computer
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:29:34
Daryl
And I noticed that there was a a through line that sadly is just as relevant today of the media and the news media.
00:29:46
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm. That's honestly something that and something that I remember when I did a reread of the sequel about like a couple years ago and taking a look for this. like ah Miller was recognizing the fact that there's a lot of like the news media and how it controls narratives and its and the society.
00:30:08
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:30:08
Daryl
And like along those lines, I have a question for the two of you. Just a few pages in, we start seeing that pattern.
00:30:15
DarthSylar
Whoa, whoa, whoa, it's gonna be politic- are we gonna talk about politics?
00:30:19
Daryl
No, no, no.
00:30:22
DarthSylar
Is it- because there's no politics in comics.
00:30:22
Daryl
No, no.
00:30:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, no.
00:30:24
Daryl
No, none whatsoever.
00:30:25
Brev Work Computer
Never.
00:30:27
Daryl
no But just a few pages in, we start to see that pattern, and every crime that's reported on the news is attributed to the mutants gang.
00:30:36
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
00:30:37
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:30:38
Daryl
So did they really do all of that, or were they a great headline-grabbing scapegoat?
00:30:47
DarthSylar
Now that's an interesting perspective.
00:30:47
Brev Work Computer
I don't know.
00:30:52
DarthSylar
it like It could be that they've been scapegoated, but they're also taking in advantage of the fact that the mutant gang themselves are taking advantage of the fear that they are generated from the media.
00:31:04
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. I mean, yes. And that's, that's the hard part, right? Is because they get street cred for doing crimes that they didn't do then. But they still get the credit for it.
00:31:16
Brev Work Computer
So it's like, yeah, we look like we're better than that, even though we know we didn't do it.
00:31:21
DarthSylar
and it we make it makes it It creates more fear and more disdain.
00:31:24
Brev Work Computer
Right.
00:31:26
DarthSylar
It creates more individuals are like, the mutants are stronger than they are which makes everything else, the police look weaker and the populace more afraid.
00:31:36
Brev Work Computer
Exactly.
00:31:37
Daryl
And on top of that too, it' it's not so much that the media is necessarily wanting to, that this is the bad a bad way of putting it, but it's not necessarily that they're wanting to blame the mutants and just hang every crime on the mutants, but if they don't know who did it and it kind of fits the pattern, the mutants you the mutants are cliques in today's parlance.
00:32:02
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:32:03
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Yep.
00:32:04
Daryl
if If we say the mutants did it, then that's going to grab attention and that's going to make people watch and they'll tune into the news again tomorrow night Because they're going to want to find out what the mutants did now.
00:32:09
DarthSylar
And again, onto the fact that Frank Miller is already clicking onto the fact that What is truth in media today?
00:32:24
DarthSylar
ah It bleeds, it leads. a A mutant attack or an attack that can be attributed to to the mutants is a major storyline, but that would cause more fear, which would empower the mutants and cause more people to be afraid and blame the mutants in a secular cycle.
00:32:42
Daryl
Well, and I mean, we've We've seen that kind of thing too. All three of us are role-playing gamers. And you know think back to the satanic panic. What makes what makes a better headline?
00:32:52
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah.
00:32:55
Daryl
um you know D&D suicide or confused, sad, lonely person who did not know how to handle the hurdles that they were facing in life and also happens to play D&D commits suicide?
00:33:12
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:33:14
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Yeah, one's a lot one's a lot easier to sell in it. And it you can. yeah well every news media outlet likes to, likes to pin something on an easy sell.
00:33:20
DarthSylar
It has nothing and there's nothing to do with us sacrificing individuals to Bethlehem it.
00:33:29
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, nothing.
00:33:29
Daryl
Yes. ah Brev right now behind Nick's house is a great big trench being dug as construction is going on on a golf course. And ah you one of our players last weekend angered Nick and Nick killed him and threw the body in the trench.
00:33:47
Brev Work Computer
You know, I have often thought that that is what happened to Jimmy Hoffa, right?
00:33:49
DarthSylar
You say that.
00:33:52
Brev Work Computer
That he is buried somewhere in under some building in and a whole bunch of concrete.
00:33:59
Daryl
Yep.
00:33:59
DarthSylar
believe I believe it's in Chicago. Most people say it's in Detroit.
00:34:03
Brev Work Computer
You love Chicago, so you keep mentioning It's like not the first time.
00:34:06
Daryl
He does.
00:34:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:34:07
Daryl
He does.
00:34:08
DarthSylar
I've been there. It's really nice.
00:34:11
Daryl
ah but He did not go to the South Side.
00:34:12
DarthSylar
Not just for hiding Jimmy Hoffa's body.
00:34:13
Brev Work Computer
They bring...
00:34:16
Brev Work Computer
They bring a knife, you bring a gun. That's the Chicago way. yeah
00:34:19
Daryl
ah
00:34:21
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:34:21
Daryl
So ah one thing that I noticed too, and ah this is one of those things that you i I am glad that I'm revisiting this because when this first came out and I read it, it was mostly just, oh this is awesome.
00:34:35
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:34:35
Daryl
And as I've read it again periodically over the years, it's like, yeah, this is this still holds up. This still holds up. And reading it this time, planning to talk about it with the two of you, I'm like, oh, I'm noticing little bits that I hadn't even thought about before because I was just along for the ride.
00:34:55
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:34:55
DarthSylar
ah that There's some brilliant storytelling.
00:34:55
Daryl
i i I wasn't in analysis hat all.
00:34:59
DarthSylar
There is some brilliant storytelling in there. There's no reason that you can't have like the pulpy fun of enjoying Batman doing cool stuff.
00:35:14
Daryl
as as a As a certain writer who recently became known to be trash, ah who created an astounding supernatural book that led to the launch of Vertigo, ah once said you he he was planning on writing a Batman story.
00:35:27
DarthSylar
uh
00:35:32
Daryl
And he's like, it it doesn't have philosophical underpinnings. It doesn't have psychological underpinnings. It's just 40 pages of Batman jumping off of tall buildings and thumping the shit out of criminals.
00:35:47
Daryl
ah
00:35:48
Brev Work Computer
That's what he said about Dark Knight Returns?
00:35:50
Daryl
that That's what Neil Gaiman said about a story that he was working on.
00:35:53
Brev Work Computer
Oh, he was right. Okay.
00:35:54
Daryl
Yes.
00:35:55
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Well, you know what? there's There's a moment when one needs to realize maybe I don't have a story worth telling and that's okay. You know?
00:36:02
Daryl
Yes.
00:36:02
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:36:02
DarthSylar
But I'll say this.
00:36:02
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:36:03
DarthSylar
ah i'll i'll always be like People always seem to bring up this. like ah Mark Twain said that there's nothing that you can gain from this story of of ah the story of Huckleberry Finn.
00:36:16
DarthSylar
It's like, well, then why are we still talking about it, Mark?
00:36:23
Daryl
okay Well, like one of the things that I noticed for the first time is that early in the first issue, Bruce keeps referring to Batman as another person in his inner monologue.
00:36:33
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:36:34
DarthSylar
i think i Honestly, I feel that ah feel that this is the real like origin of like the idea that Batman and Bruce are separate entities.
00:36:35
Daryl
He's always he
00:36:37
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:36:48
Brev Work Computer
So I've got this theory that I've been that i've been holding on to for years. I've said it many times. and I probably said it on this show. When it comes to the distinguished competition and their line of superheroes, I've often felt that that Batman is the real character.
00:37:05
Brev Work Computer
Bruce Wayne is, is the mask, right? Like, just like this day about Superman, you know, Clark is the mask and Superman is a real character.
00:37:08
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:10
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:37:13
Brev Work Computer
So that in, in, in to kill bill, but I've always, but then I've always thought that Marvel is the opposite. Like Spider-Man is what Peter Parker has to do, but he's really, it's really Peter.
00:37:24
Brev Work Computer
And that's that's the joy of it.
00:37:25
Daryl
yeah
00:37:25
Brev Work Computer
is One is the the the idea of the power fantasy that i can anybody can be Superman or Batman or whatever it is.
00:37:31
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:37:31
Brev Work Computer
It's actually anybody can be Spider-Man, but you all get the point. I'm going to it, but like but like the Marvel characters, it's more I'm thrown into this because I have to do it
00:37:36
DarthSylar
The idea is that Spider-Man is what Peter wants to be, responsible, capable, and ta capable of taking on all aspects of life, but he can't because he's Spider-Man.
00:37:50
DarthSylar
And there's Peter Parker, who must sacrifice his Peter Parker-ness to do these great things that he has a responsibility to do.
00:38:01
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's just like, i think I think Steve Rogers would be more than i was just saw And I think this is shown beautifully in in the Avengers Endgame is he would love to put down the shield as long as somebody else is willing to take it.
00:38:13
Brev Work Computer
Somebody else that has to do it because I would love to let it go.
00:38:16
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, like i feel I feel like as much as I do love their their interpretation of Iron Man and centering him in the MCU, their interpretation of Steve was great in that moment.
00:38:27
DarthSylar
and it is like He's a man who's fighting a fight that he's never wanted to fight.
00:38:28
Brev Work Computer
hmm.
00:38:34
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:38:34
DarthSylar
But he had to fight it. And when he finally had that chance to...
00:38:36
Daryl
Because he doesn't like bullies.
00:38:38
Brev Work Computer
That's right.
00:38:39
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:38:39
Brev Work Computer
and
00:38:39
DarthSylar
And when he finally found a moment and found someone who can... fight after him, he was okay with letting that pass. And and more and I said more than just Sam, but but just in general, that there's a whole generation of people who are willing to fight.
00:38:57
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Willing to pick up that shield.
00:38:58
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
00:38:58
Brev Work Computer
and you going And that's why I think where it comes to this, to this book here that we're talking about is that I feel that when we see Bruce in the beginning, like it's damn near suicidal when he's on that car,
Bruce Wayne’s Psychological Journey
00:39:08
Brev Work Computer
when he, when he's doing that, that race, like he's, I think he's trying to kill himself and he he chickens out last minute, but does he chicken out or does the Batman inside of him make him save himself?
00:39:08
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, he...
00:39:09
Daryl
ah yeah
00:39:09
DarthSylar
he
00:39:18
Brev Work Computer
So he becomes Batman again, because the story isn't about Bruce. It's about Batman. And like, and like Batman has now taken over the physical manifestation excuse me, the body of Bruce Wayne to become Batman again.
00:39:33
Brev Work Computer
And that is why the dark night returns. Cause it's not about Bruce anymore. This is Batman doing this shit to save his city.
00:39:40
DarthSylar
I mean, there is a lot to to that to the degree of that, especially when in the scene where he meets with Gordon for the first time.
00:39:40
Daryl
and yeah well And there's there's a a moment that Miller makes it absolutely clear visually and with a single line of Alfreds that that switch has been made.
00:39:48
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Yeah.
00:39:58
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
00:40:01
Daryl
Because we we see that you know older Bruce has grown a mustache.
00:40:01
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. Yes.
00:40:04
Brev Work Computer
yes
00:40:05
Daryl
And Bruce goes through about half of that first issue And, you know, he's got the mustache. And then after.
00:40:14
DarthSylar
It's a distinguished, like, full Caterpillar, man, mustache.
00:40:18
Daryl
Yeah.
00:40:18
DarthSylar
it's It's a good one.
00:40:19
Daryl
And and then we we get to this the shot where he's on the steps leading down to the cave. And Alfred, you know comes down because the alarm has been tripped by it and asks him, what happened to your mustache? And he reaches up like he doesn't even remember shaving it.
00:40:38
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. That's a good point, Daryl. Because Batman really can't have a mustache because it won't fit under the mask.
00:40:43
Daryl
Nope.
00:40:44
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:40:45
DarthSylar
it would be recognizable.
00:40:45
Daryl
Well, it would fit under the mask, but it would be more of a giveaway as to who he is.
00:40:48
Brev Work Computer
That's very true.
00:40:49
DarthSylar
It...
00:40:49
Brev Work Computer
It's very true.
00:40:49
DarthSylar
you yeah like it it's it's There's a true factor of, like... And honestly, initially, when I first read this, I thought it was, like, implying a supernatural element to the Batman.
00:41:05
Brev Work Computer
Interesting.
00:41:06
DarthSylar
Rather than...
00:41:06
Daryl
i never got that.
00:41:07
DarthSylar
But again, how does I was...
00:41:08
Daryl
Yeah,
00:41:09
DarthSylar
I'm saying that when I first read it. I was a kid.
00:41:11
Daryl
yeah.
00:41:12
DarthSylar
I was, like, like in my... like 10 or 11 when I first read it.
00:41:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, so let's talk about that. When did everybody first read it? You were 10 or 11.
00:41:23
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:41:23
Daryl
I was 16 when it came out.
00:41:24
Brev Work Computer
Right.
00:41:27
Brev Work Computer
So you bought it off the newsstands?
00:41:28
Daryl
Yep, I bought it off the racks. I bought it off the racks. I remember a long gap between 3 and 4.
00:41:33
DarthSylar
Did you get it with a newspaper for one of the newsies?
00:41:39
Daryl
Yes. And in in the gap in between in the gap in between 3 and 4 Frank Miller was at one of the local conventions, so I got one through three signed.
00:41:43
Brev Work Computer
Nice Christian Bale. Yeah.
00:41:53
Brev Work Computer
Nice. You still have those?
00:41:55
Daryl
I do. They're in on my bookshelf.
00:41:58
Brev Work Computer
Wonderful.
00:41:59
DarthSylar
Alright, where exactly are those?
00:41:59
Daryl
And.
00:42:01
Brev Work Computer
just
00:42:02
DarthSylar
that Let me put on my put on my gloves and my and my ah and my and my ski mask.
00:42:08
Daryl
that The cats will kill you.
00:42:13
Daryl
The guard cats will kill you.
00:42:16
Brev Work Computer
So I first, I first read it when so was, I was, I, we were in our second house, I guess third house.
00:42:16
DarthSylar
They'll succeed, probably.
00:42:16
Daryl
But.
00:42:23
Brev Work Computer
take I don't remember the first house. So we had just moved. So I was either in ninth or 10th grade. And my brother had met the, the, the cousin of a friend of his was a guy who had this massive comic book collection. His name was Gerald. And he had all these comics and trade paper. act He's a huge elf quest fan. He just loved elf questing, but, but like, um,
00:42:45
Brev Work Computer
He had this, the trade of the bat of the dark night returns. And so I borrowed that at the same time, my brother bought a whole bunch of Grendel comics, but like, uh, not, not Hunter Rose, but Christine.
00:42:57
Brev Work Computer
Oh shit. I can't remember re name.
00:42:58
Daryl
Christine Sparr.
00:42:59
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. Christine's brother, that whole run. And so I read those, like, i want to say and in either one night or over a week or something like that. And so like, that was just like crazy. crazy shit going on but like i remember reading this at that at that age and i just i thought it was really great i thought it was really i like wow this is really good i had a good time could see where the 89 movie got it's got it got a lot of its uh inspiration from and then ah god like what after college the wizard magazine i think released its 100 greatest graphic novels of all time and this was number three
00:43:32
Brev Work Computer
Number one was mouse. Okay. Number two was Watchmen, as you would expect. This was number three.
00:43:35
DarthSylar
Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:37
Brev Work Computer
um And I was like, you know, it was really good, wasn't it? So I went back and reread it. I was like yeah, this is really good. And then like few years ago, I read it again. And Daryl had the same moment when I was like, as I say all the time on the movie defenders is, is that there's, there's a moment when you realize that you, the art hasn't changed, but you have, and now how you see the art, how you interpret this movie in these scenes hits totally different than it did before.
00:44:02
Brev Work Computer
Like for example, you know, you watch terms of endearment as a kid, for some odd reason, you're like, Oh, this is really good. really sad. Now that you're a parent and it's about one of those parents dying of cancer and the two little kids are going to be survived their mom like that.
00:44:13
Brev Work Computer
It's like, Jesus Christ. This is a much more intense movie than I thought it was.
00:44:15
Daryl
Bye. but
00:44:17
DarthSylar
Again, like, yeah.
00:44:18
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:19
DarthSylar
Going into this, i was like, oh, this is the twist that, like, ah the Batman is, like like, a spirit, a ghost. is's like It's not. It's more psycho... Because I didn't know, like, the psychological terms or tones that they were going for.
00:44:34
Brev Work Computer
yeah
00:44:36
DarthSylar
it's like, you you could, like, that's how I interpreted it as a kid. I recognized that, like, something was different between when Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne and when Batman is Batman.
00:44:47
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And then you got an interesting set of rogues gal.
00:44:49
Daryl
Yeah, because...
00:44:50
Brev Work Computer
Oh, sorry, Daryl. I was gonna.
00:44:51
Daryl
Oh, no, I was just going to say, and that inner monologue changes that, you it's... That inner monologue is all Batman after that moment.
00:45:01
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm. Yes.
00:45:03
DarthSylar
Again, like, again,
00:45:03
Daryl
It's all Batman.
00:45:04
DarthSylar
Even if you so even like as a kid, I didn't recognize like the psychological cues, I recognized that like now this is a different character doing this right now.
00:45:16
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, as a kid, I remember not catching any of that. I just thought it was a cool adventure story and it was really neat.
00:45:20
Daryl
Yes. Yeah.
00:45:20
Brev Work Computer
And I was like, this is this is cool. And it was, you know, scenes like we were going to talk about it, I'm sure, but the twist with Two-Face and then the fate of the Joker and then Selina Kyle.
00:45:29
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:45:29
Daryl
yeah
00:45:30
DarthSylar
ah baby Well, maybe it's because also
00:45:30
Brev Work Computer
I was like, this is really adult.
00:45:33
DarthSylar
Well maybe because at this point I had like done like the read like ah the Spider-Man and symbiote stuff so I was okay with like okay when when when the when the voice changes in the text box that's a different guy.
00:45:33
Daryl
ah
00:45:34
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:45:47
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. I remember not catching that. So astute on you, sir. Well done. Yeah. So the first issue is what dark night,
Comparing Comics and Films
00:45:55
Brev Work Computer
what's it called? Dark night returns.
00:45:56
Daryl
The first one's The Dark Knight Returns.
00:45:58
Brev Work Computer
Okay. Yeah.
00:45:59
DarthSylar
ah hu
00:45:59
Daryl
They adopted that as the name of the whole thing when when they collected it.
00:46:05
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:46:05
Brev Work Computer
So where does this rate on your, on your Batman stories, which one's better this one or the dark night rises the movie.
00:46:05
Daryl
And and i
00:46:12
Daryl
ah
00:46:12
Brev Work Computer
i guess' Okay.
00:46:14
Daryl
I... I would say this...
00:46:17
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:46:17
Daryl
Um, just because as a whole, it holds together and it rises, owes a bit to this. It rises, rises, rises, owes even more to Nightfall and No Man's Land.
00:46:25
Brev Work Computer
You think?
00:46:26
DarthSylar
It does.
00:46:26
Brev Work Computer
if
00:46:27
DarthSylar
it does indeed. Indeed.
00:46:31
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Yep.
00:46:32
Daryl
But, uh,
00:46:33
DarthSylar
and the
00:46:34
Brev Work Computer
It's the same argument I have made several times to my one of my wonderful co-hosts. And and I said, I know that you like these and they're good. They're good. When it comes to like this, and I can even defend X-Men The Last Stand. But I said, the problem is, is these are very distinct stories that they're trying to mesh into one story.
00:46:53
Brev Work Computer
And, ah and there's a reason why audiences have trouble with that is because you have all these diametrically opposed things and different thread lines that should be given their own space to breathe that don't aren't given their own space to breathe.
00:47:07
Brev Work Computer
And so, and you're trying to cram it all into a movie, the two, two and a half hours.
00:47:09
DarthSylar
Like, a and give you can give credit where credit is due to Christopher Nolan for putting it together.
00:47:12
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:47:18
DarthSylar
Like, honestly, like, I don't think, if you put it on paper, that movie's a mess on paper.
00:47:25
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:47:27
DarthSylar
its But it's like credit to like the the actors, and especially under the direction of Christopher Nolan, that The Dark Died Rises even works.
00:47:36
Brev Work Computer
Correct. Yeah, I 100%.
00:47:38
DarthSylar
I'll say it's the weakest of the trilogy, but also it's...
00:47:42
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:47:45
DarthSylar
for what it For what it's trying to do, only he could have put it together how he did.
00:47:50
Brev Work Computer
it It should be total shit. It should be total shit. And he he pulls it off.
00:47:53
DarthSylar
it' sort of it sort of it's It should have been the Spider-Man 3 of the Nolan trilogy.
00:47:55
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:47:58
Brev Work Computer
or the X-Men The Last Stand or something like that where you go like okay we've really lost it here yeah
00:48:01
Daryl
ah
00:48:02
DarthSylar
Do... Too much going on all at the same time. And there's tons of plot holes, like literal plot holes.
00:48:07
Brev Work Computer
yeah
00:48:10
DarthSylar
But it's like, it's only disgrace of his directing style and him commanding an amazing cast.
00:48:18
Brev Work Computer
And and the end the end hits the emotional beat that it needs to. It land it hits the landing where where it's supposed to hit, and it does a great job of pulling it all together from an emotional standpoint, and that is the feeling you get when you walk out of the movie.
00:48:32
DarthSylar
Again, I had just a crescendo on that.
00:48:32
Brev Work Computer
But yeah.
00:48:36
DarthSylar
I did the did the... I spent some money and went with a group of friends, and we spent from 4 p.m. to 3 a.m.
00:48:48
DarthSylar
in the morning watching all on premiere night.
00:48:54
Brev Work Computer
Love it. i that I couldn't do it now, but I would have been able to do it when they came out.
00:48:56
DarthSylar
Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises...
00:48:58
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:01
DarthSylar
In a marathon, like you only got like 10 minutes minutes for a restroom break and a ref referral on pump and free on Mm-hmm.
00:49:09
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:49:10
Daryl
Before we move on from Nolan, one thing that I did make a note of that I wanted to ask you guys about. So in in this first issue, when they've got the whole Two-Face story going on.
00:49:26
Brev Work Computer
Mm
00:49:27
Daryl
Bruce is being interviewed on the news and and Bruce has been a supporter of Harvey's rehabilitation and has financed it and he says, we must believe in Harvey Dent.
00:49:33
Brev Work Computer
hmm.
00:49:40
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:49:42
Daryl
i Is it a coincidence?
00:49:43
Brev Work Computer
No, no, absolutely.
00:49:44
DarthSylar
No.
00:49:46
Brev Work Computer
It is not. I, if if Christopher Nolan was standing in my room right here, right now and hand on his by hand on the Bible saying, I swear to God, I never read the dark night returns before I made the Batman trilogy.
00:49:58
Brev Work Computer
I would not believe him or even during the Batman trilogy. I would, our dark night trilogy.
00:50:00
DarthSylar
neither the Neither of his writers, like i believe that which he worked heavily with on on these projects,
00:50:01
Brev Work Computer
No, wouldn't believe Yeah.
00:50:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:50:08
DarthSylar
ah because he cause hes Because he's tight with all of his crew.
00:50:09
Brev Work Computer
There's no way.
00:50:12
DarthSylar
like he He keeps his actors in a pool.
00:50:14
Daryl
Yeah.
00:50:14
DarthSylar
He keeps his writers in a pool. so like the if If not him, his writers informed him, like, here's some stuff from The Dark Knight Returns that is what we're putting in here. like he The whole idea of like the nature of like the city and, like, heck, there's entire sequences pulled right from this in The Dark Knight, right?
00:50:35
Brev Work Computer
His fucking younger brother helped write this, the trilogy.
00:50:35
DarthSylar
Right, and specifically.
00:50:38
Brev Work Computer
mean, like, I mean, like the fam, the family made his wife produced him.
00:50:39
Daryl
Yeah.
00:50:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, no, no, no, no.
00:50:43
Daryl
okay
00:50:44
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:50:44
Brev Work Computer
I don't. I, yeah, no.
00:50:45
DarthSylar
The whole sequence where where the older cop says, played by Patton Oswalt, says, like, you're in for it, so tonight, kid, is told directly from to that younger cop shooting at Batman, directly from it.
00:50:46
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
00:50:51
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah. with
00:50:56
Daryl
Yeah. yeah
00:51:04
Brev Work Computer
Yes. So the first issue, right? We got the car crash, Gordon and and and Wayne. We get the whole storyline with Harvey, right? on the His rehabilitation, quote unquote, right? I remember thinking as a kid, that was really fucking cool, that that twist.
00:51:27
Brev Work Computer
That har Harvey was really still two-faced, even though his face was fixed.
00:51:28
DarthSylar
Honestly, that's
00:51:30
Brev Work Computer
In fact, he was putting bandages on his face, yeah.
00:51:33
DarthSylar
when I really realized how tragic Two-Face was.
00:51:36
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm. It wasn't because it wasn't it wasn't weird or it was weird, but it wasn't like comically funny. It was. Oh, that's really sad.
00:51:44
DarthSylar
It's like, he he's that mentally broken that even though the physical part has been fixed, you can't fix the the the part of himself.
00:51:45
Daryl
Yeah.
00:51:58
Brev Work Computer
That's broken inside. And it's tragic.
00:52:00
Daryl
Yep.
00:52:00
DarthSylar
And i got
00:52:00
Daryl
he's He's too far gone.
00:52:02
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:52:03
DarthSylar
and it it also showed, like, a lot of people misconstrue this as a more brutal Batman. it's like But that moment was gentle. was, like, tragic.
00:52:13
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. He did everything he could to save his friend, not realizing his friend was already gone.
00:52:18
DarthSylar
And even though he he did stop him, but is like he realizes stopping him is just putting him back into into an institution where he's still going to suffer.
00:52:18
Daryl
Yep.
00:52:30
Daryl
And Young Stupid Me, the first my first read-through, read it a couple of times... after the whole thing had come out, finally.
Harvey Dent’s Tragic Arc
00:52:41
Daryl
Young Stupid Me didn't quite get you know that that sequence when you Batman's confronting him and and the bandages come off and you see the perfectly restored Harvey face for two panels and the narration saying, you and then I really saw him and his full face is disfigured.
00:53:02
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
00:53:03
Daryl
And then back to the pristine Harvey face, i was like, what?
00:53:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, i had I had the same thing. I was like, wait, did he did he shift? Did he shape? Is he like Mystique now? Did he shape shift? Yeah, no. Yeah. And then in Batman, of course, sees the bat in the reflection when he looks at Harvey.
00:53:19
Daryl
Yeah.
00:53:20
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, of course, he's like, you're broken and so am I.
00:53:24
Daryl
And that that's imagery that has carried over to other media too.
00:53:30
Brev Work Computer
Fuck yeah.
00:53:30
Daryl
Especially the two Schumacher movies with the giant bat in in the cave.
00:53:30
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:53:30
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
00:53:33
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:53:37
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:53:38
DarthSylar
Honestly, just the Bat being so prominent itself, I think is something that this really emphasized on. on for the franchise in the visual like because again this is more than just a comic book it's like a redefinition of the character to audiences so I feel like the idea that the the large bat being like a major like sort of motif has sort of come from that
00:54:02
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
00:54:14
Brev Work Computer
Could you imagine being the editor in chief of DC comics and some young upstart comes you and goes, I've got an idea. And you go like, what is this?
00:54:24
Daryl
ah yeah
00:54:27
Brev Work Computer
Like, uh, it's just, um, it's like, wow. Okay. Well, uh, and you want to do 44 pages and you want, think it was originally like supposed to be like three issues. Right. they kicked out the four.
00:54:37
DarthSylar
Yeah, was supposed to be three issues.
00:54:38
Daryl
Yeah.
00:54:38
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And like, and you want to charge how much for it? You think anyone's going to buy this and more gross. This was right. So
00:54:44
Daryl
hold Well, one thing that I was...
00:54:46
DarthSylar
Also, he was coming off of off off of his daredevil Wolverine and stuff.
00:54:50
Brev Work Computer
that's true.
00:54:50
DarthSylar
like he like he became like Again, like I can only imagine what that meeting room was, but like like Frank Miller was rolling in on like the largest bunch of goodwill that possible he could have.
00:55:07
Daryl
Well, I can attest at that local con that I was talking about, it was I had been to a few cons before that.
00:55:08
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
00:55:16
Daryl
So that would have been, if it was after the third issue, it would have been the latter part of 86. And I had been to about three or four of that same local con in that time.
00:55:29
Daryl
And that was the first time I recall seeing a comics creator get a reaction like a rock star.
00:55:37
Brev Work Computer
Mm
00:55:39
Daryl
from the attendees. And, know, before it had been like, oh, late, hey, yeah, you know, here's Chris Claremont, here's you, Dan Juergens, here's this person, here's, and they they were lined up at tables outside of the exhibit hall.
00:55:58
Daryl
And, you know, you could just walk up to them, nobody had a line. Miller had a line. It was the first time I saw anyone with a line. And the audit, the, attendees were just reacting to him, like I say, like a rock star.
00:56:12
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. He's the first one that I know about that was that one. And, you know Neil Gaiman became one and Rob Liefeld, obviously Jim Lee, Tom and Farland, all those guys became rock stars, but like, he's a kind of strange dude.
00:56:23
DarthSylar
Alan Moore, but he's kind of like the... Well, he's a strange dude, but he was like he was he was also that kind of...
00:56:28
Daryl
yeah
00:56:30
DarthSylar
He was that kind of strange, esoteric rock star.
00:56:34
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was almost more like punk rock or goth rock or something, but yeah, I see what you're saying. Like, but like,
00:56:41
DarthSylar
they they da down That was when they were really becoming like personality artists in and of themselves.
00:56:45
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. That's a good point. they they they are Their persona was starting to grow past just nameless, faceless writer, artist into this is our tour. Yeah.
00:56:59
DarthSylar
Like, when i when I hear the word, when I hear like, Gail Simone's going to work on a piece.
00:57:00
Daryl
Yeah.
00:57:03
DarthSylar
It's like, I know who she is, and I'm like, okay, I'm interested.
00:57:05
Brev Work Computer
Sure.
00:57:07
DarthSylar
It's less her work, it's her reputation that I'm now like...
00:57:11
Brev Work Computer
Sure. Sure. By the way, did you all pick up um this new Daredevil number one, Stephanie Phillips?
00:57:19
Daryl
I have not, no.
00:57:19
DarthSylar
heard some good things about it.
00:57:20
Brev Work Computer
i liked it. But you know what? um' i i have I loved ah Stephanie Phillips' work on Phoenix. I loved the the first arc. The second arc, you could tell that the book was getting canceled, so the second arc doesn't isn't as good. kind of ends abruptly. I loved that. um
00:57:39
DarthSylar
There's some blogs that I followed if were that gave a pretty good review of that first issue, so I'm be interested interested to see what it is.
00:57:40
Brev Work Computer
And I liked Planet...
00:57:44
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And I, and I liked Planet She-Hulk. I thought it was a fun six issues. I was, I was in, I was like, I want more.
00:57:48
DarthSylar
Oh, yeah!
00:57:50
Brev Work Computer
And I read this first,
00:57:50
DarthSylar
Oh, Plants. I think I read like the first couple issues of Plants, E. Colt.
00:57:54
Brev Work Computer
It's good.
00:57:54
DarthSylar
That was fun.
00:57:54
Brev Work Computer
it's It's entertaining. And then and i really I picked up this first Daredevil because I did not care for the Saladin Ahmed run, even though I stuck around for 19 issues. I was like, why am I doing this? I do not like this run. I just kept buying it, hoping it would get...
00:58:05
Daryl
Why am doing this to myself?
00:58:06
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, so can it get better? Can it get better? Can it get better? And the answer is no. 18 more times, it was still no. It's like me asking my wife. Never mind. But like this this one, I read this first issue and i was like,
00:58:21
Brev Work Computer
I think I liked it. And then reread it again today. I was like, no, I, this is really good. She's got, she's got a voice the, uh, here that she wants to tell and we'll see what happens. So I'm in. Um, but yeah, you're just talking about, yeah, I liked it.
00:58:31
Daryl
Well, now will have to give it a shot.
00:58:34
DarthSylar
That gives few blogs that i was following said hello
00:58:36
Daryl
Well, And, Brev, you mentioned of being 48 pages.
00:58:42
DarthSylar
that as well
00:58:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:46
Daryl
That was something else that I noticed that I wanted to bring up while I was
Comic Storytelling Evolution
00:58:49
Daryl
rereading it. Yeah, 48 was twice the size of the average comic. But I noticed as I was reading these that every issue was
00:58:56
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Yeah.
00:59:03
Daryl
it in the best possible way of the term, really dense.
00:59:08
Brev Work Computer
yes
00:59:09
DarthSylar
Yep.
00:59:10
Daryl
it It was a good long read for each issue, whereas there are some contemporary comics that I dearly love, but I'm done with them in 10 minutes.
00:59:26
Brev Work Computer
Well, and like you want to get, we all come from the age where
00:59:26
Daryl
Yeah.
00:59:33
Brev Work Computer
You know, we read Claremont. We read, um you know, Wolfman. We read Alan Moore. You have text on the page and beautiful art. Now it's like they try to strip. They've taken cinema rules and transformed into comic books. And I'm like, but comic books and movies are different.
00:59:51
Brev Work Computer
Like, I love the interesting angles.
00:59:52
Daryl
They are different media.
00:59:53
DarthSylar
Yeah.
00:59:54
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I love different angles, but I want some text on the page to tell me.
00:59:54
DarthSylar
Yeah. i yeah
00:59:58
Brev Work Computer
what I need to know that I might not understand from what the artist is telling me. And also like, I also subscribe to the idea. Everybody's a comic is everybody's first comic. So you need to kind of have some of this narrative along the way.
01:00:07
Daryl
Yes.
01:00:10
Brev Work Computer
Like I remember loving an X-Men uncanny X-Men one movie. 224 the start of think it's the issue before fall of the mutants or it's 223 anyway it's 224 maybe it's the first issue of fall the mutants there's this beautiful opening page with storm and she's standing there still powerless mohawk indian garb or it's like a native american garb the forge made for and there's this brilliant passage at the top that claremont harua had written about her and all this and like for anybody that doesn't know like go back and read that book that series if you think wolverine's the main character you're wrong it's storm read it again and you'll be But yeah, it's Storm. But like he has this massively wonderful text about her. And I'm like, yes, that's beautiful. I don't see that anymore. And I read the Dark Knight. I go back to the Dark Knight Returns. And like, yes, there's text on the page to read, to get into, to understand the characters and their mindset their thoughts and their dialogue and all sorts stuff in the setting that we're in. And beautiful art to go along with
01:01:05
Brev Work Computer
And I'm like, I pick up a book today and I'm like, so there's some attempts at quippy dialogue and some pretty pictures. I mean, the art's good, but I'm like, I but i just, there's nothing to read.
01:01:14
DarthSylar
I feel like the feel like the there's a there should be a connection between them. I do like the evolution of comics, and I do like the evolution of the art, but I do feel like the art sometimes needs is trying to do more lifting than it can do.
01:01:33
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. yeah
01:01:34
DarthSylar
it's trying It's trying to convey action, emotion, etc., when...
01:01:34
Daryl
And
01:01:40
DarthSylar
that's not what the page can convey. There needs to be dialogue. I've also seen some pages that are like more dialogue than like what the action can convey.
01:01:52
DarthSylar
And it's like, well, you could have conveyed this with little bit more action than just like in the theater of the mind.
01:02:00
Daryl
we we could do, we could have you back and do an entire episode about it.
01:02:01
DarthSylar
It's a hard discussion.
01:02:05
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:02:06
Daryl
But what what it what it basically boils down to, to me is, well, there's a couple of things, and I will try to make them as brief as possible. And then we will come back and do a whole episode on it at some point.
01:02:20
Daryl
um they They've gotten rid of the every issue is someone's first philosophy. because they largely abandoned the business model of the primary audience being young readers who read for a few years then age up and cycle out to be replaced by others just like them lather rinse repeat and now long time older readers like us spoiler alert folks i i hate to crush your your illusions but we we were outliers
01:02:41
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Yep. yep
01:02:57
Daryl
and we And we understood that we were outliers. And the characters and situations wherever ever were so meant to be evergreen. And now we're the primary audience.
01:03:11
Daryl
And so we get stories that are not only sequels to, but extensive
01:03:22
Daryl
encyclopedic knowledge of 40 old 40 year old stories are required to read this new if line wide event that is a sequel to a 40 year old story and the the format it's
01:03:22
DarthSylar
references to...
01:03:39
DarthSylar
supposed to be picking up on like the the end result of that. ah that it's it It's built up to that and it's like we would get...
01:03:45
Daryl
and
01:03:48
DarthSylar
It's literally the extent of like you wouldn't get it, you weren't there.
01:03:53
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:03:53
Daryl
And we the structure the story structure itself is now built upon the inevitability of collection in a trade paperback.
01:04:06
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:04:07
Daryl
So they're all six issue or 12 issue storylines, six issues being the ideal for collection in a trade paperback.
01:04:17
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:04:17
Daryl
And so there is no recap or exposition or anything as you go along for part three or part four to be someone's first issue of that series?
01:04:30
DarthSylar
And if they do remember to put that in, a good luck trying to figure out what they would what the the issue code is
01:04:37
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. with All the legacy stuff and all the other, don't even know anymore.
01:04:38
Daryl
Yeah.
01:04:40
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, no, those are all good points.
01:04:41
Daryl
So
01:04:42
Brev Work Computer
And so then I have a question for you guys. i I think, and there's always there's always a an exception to a rule, but I have often thought that when it comes to DC, DC does such a good job, and it's probably because they've got 20 years on Marvel. No, no, no, more than that. look What, 30 years on Marvel?
01:05:05
Brev Work Computer
Anyway, for the other characters.
01:05:06
DarthSylar
roughly.
01:05:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. I've always felt that DC does a really good job of making standalone limited series that are so awesome and change the dynamic of the characters.
01:05:19
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:05:20
Brev Work Computer
And it's like, if you read the dark night returns, you get that.
01:05:21
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:24
Brev Work Computer
If you read, Oh, whatever happened to the man of tomorrow, you get that.
01:05:29
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:05:29
Brev Work Computer
Like you get certain things.
01:05:30
Daryl
yeah
01:05:31
Brev Work Computer
You're like, Oh my God, this is so good. But like the long ongoing might not be as good. Whereas Marvel has the opposite problem. the ongoing but it you have to know you have to be in the know what happened but like the ongoing is so powerful but their mini series for the most part you're kind of like their events are sort of like eh but they but they're kind of they're they're not that great but they've leaned into that so much recently and especially with canceling at issue 10 or or six or whatever it is recently that they just keep doing and it's like it doesn't feel like it's continued
01:05:59
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:06:01
Brev Work Computer
it continued um a story anymore but like but when i look at something like the one we're talking about when we get to talk when when we when we talk about it on this episode of this this book right here these four issues you know are just so freaking powerful but does it make me want to go read the batman long you know the ongoing series i don't i don't know because i'm like what is it going to be as good as this
01:06:10
Daryl
yeah
01:06:23
Daryl
So...
01:06:24
DarthSylar
it's it's It's basically the like the idea that we're reading a Batman story, and but we don't need to know, for the most part, previous Batman stories.
01:06:25
Daryl
so
01:06:38
Daryl
So be as the one who was there when it was on the shelves, he he he says as he gets his walker.
01:06:41
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, do it. Do it. Yeah.
01:06:45
Brev Work Computer
yeah got it He's got to see Alice for later.
01:06:45
DarthSylar
back back way back ah which which Which dinosaur were you on at this point?
01:06:45
Daryl
um
01:06:48
Daryl
Yes.
01:06:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:06:51
Brev Work Computer
That's right.
01:06:52
Daryl
i was i was on a Metasaurus Rex.
01:06:56
Brev Work Computer
Nice.
01:06:58
Daryl
But so i was i was not reading Batman regularly at the time that Dark Knight Returns came out.
01:06:59
DarthSylar
That's not an actual dinosaur.
01:07:05
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm.
01:07:08
Daryl
I don't remember if they announced year one immediately after it finished or or not, but it was the announcement of Miller doing year one that I said, okay, I'm going to start reading the Batman ongoing.
01:07:27
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:07:27
Daryl
And year one started in at what, number 404, 405, something like that.
01:07:34
Brev Work Computer
Yep. It's
01:07:34
Daryl
i I went ahead and started with 400.
01:07:38
Brev Work Computer
good jumping on point. Yeah.
01:07:39
Daryl
Because i i knew i knew year one was coming. um Actually, ah there might have been... I don't remember if the Legends crossover was right before or right after year one.
01:07:52
Daryl
I think it was right before. So i was I knew I was going to be picking up all of the Legends crossovers. I knew year one was coming. So I started with Batman 400, which it didn't hurt that it had a gorgeous Bill Sienkiewicz cover and it had a few pages by George Perez.
01:08:05
Brev Work Computer
yeah
01:08:07
Daryl
And ah yeah, I was just all in on all of that. So... Yes, Dark Knight indirectly made me start reading the Batman series.
01:08:14
Brev Work Computer
So, so you
01:08:18
Brev Work Computer
so for you, that's a case of like, Hey, I, I, yeah, I loved it so much. I'm jumping on, I'm jumping out. See, I want to see what's going on with this.
01:08:25
Daryl
Yeah, even though I knew Frank Miller was only going to be writing four issues of the regular book, I started picking up.
01:08:26
Brev Work Computer
Okay.
01:08:30
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:08:33
Daryl
picking it up
01:08:33
DarthSylar
Again, that goes back to what we were saying.
01:08:35
DarthSylar
like This is when like artists, like writers, and and artists were becoming like part of like the selling process. like you You want to see more of their work.
01:08:49
Daryl
And then, so...
01:08:50
DarthSylar
there's There's an interesting change to like the... Before, it was just like, oh, you're a fan of this, but you're like, I'm a fan of this guy, and I want to see how he writes this.
01:09:00
Daryl
Now, I don't know about the two of you as you were reading it for the first time, but so my expectation was kind of set by the first issue, oh, we're we've got future Batman and future Two-Face.
01:09:12
Daryl
So which which future Batman rogue are we going to see in the second issue in Dark Knight Triumphant? Answer, none of them.
01:09:19
DarthSylar
um with
01:09:20
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, well, they layer in Joker a little bit, but yeah, I remember thinking, hey, Joker's next, and then he's not next.
01:09:21
DarthSylar
yeah
01:09:23
Daryl
Yeah.
01:09:26
Brev Work Computer
Okay, never mind.
01:09:27
DarthSylar
But I felt that they they did set up the mutants as like a threat pretty pretty solidly.
01:09:32
Daryl
they They did, but the the classic character that we got, for want of a better term, is we got the new Robin. We got Carrie Kelly.
01:09:42
Brev Work Computer
yeah Yeah, go on.
01:09:42
DarthSylar
Yes, and Carrie Kelly is a Interesting Robin, in my opinion. like I really like her, but...
01:09:53
Daryl
I really like her. And the dark night has cast such a long shadow over DC since 1986 over the bat books that every so often they, it's like in the mainstream books, they, they try to call back.
01:10:03
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:10:12
Daryl
They even introduced a canonical present day, Carrie Kelly in the bat books a few years ago.
01:10:17
DarthSylar
Yeah, wasn't it during New 52?
01:10:20
Daryl
She was Damien's babysitter.
01:10:22
Brev Work Computer
No, that's... No.
01:10:25
DarthSylar
No.
01:10:26
Brev Work Computer
now
01:10:26
DarthSylar
like i my I think, again, I just feel like she becomes Robin rather quickly, and I like that it kind of goes with Tim Drake and like ah like the original Batgirl and stuff like that, but it's like,
01:10:44
DarthSylar
She's really effective. it's like Again, not to complain about that, so I just wish we had a little bit more backstory into her going into it. But I understand it's four issues.
01:10:53
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And I think she.
01:10:55
DarthSylar
But again, I love the character. it's like That's just my one critique of her.
01:10:58
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:11:00
Brev Work Computer
I think she represent i mean to me, she kind of always represented this this idea that Batman's return or the Dark Knight return has starts starts to inspire people to do the right thing.
01:11:07
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:11:11
Brev Work Computer
What I like about her is that she's kind of a fuck up, you know, like I love that.
01:11:11
DarthSylar
yeah
01:11:14
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, seat see does see's she has a great deal of skill, but she's not trained.
01:11:15
Daryl
it
01:11:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, and she lacks the confidence to do it right.
01:11:19
DarthSylar
it is his potential She's
01:11:21
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:11:24
DarthSylar
She's like dynamite. She's compact and powerful, but she's not able to activate properly.
01:11:32
Brev Work Computer
Right.
01:11:33
Daryl
Well, and that whole inspiration aspect, it's there in the text because, again, on the news, the psychiatrist who was responsible for harvey' Harvey's rehabilitation is a constant presence on the news, even after Harvey's out of the story, talking about the impact, the horrible impact that Batman
01:11:33
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:11:51
DarthSylar
And I feel, again, like that goes back to...
Carrie Kelly as Robin
01:11:56
Daryl
is having on the public.
01:11:56
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:11:58
Daryl
And you know the this will inspire people to do bad things. And as he's on the news saying this, we see Carrie suiting up in her in her mu Robin costume that she bought for the first time.
01:12:13
Daryl
And she is being inspired by Batman to do the right thing.
01:12:17
DarthSylar
Can I do...
01:12:18
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:12:18
DarthSylar
I wanted to bring that up because again, like the idea of like TV psychiatrists and also railing against like bad influences in the media, causing causing individuals to act out. It's very much sort of hits back onto that to the controversy, speaking of the fact that this is around the time of like the satanic panic and the D&D.
01:12:40
DarthSylar
the being bad for everyone is like, it goes back to like the corruption of the in, the seduction of the innocent book that nearly killed comics back in the day.
01:12:51
Daryl
i I made a note towards that, referencing that specifically somewhere, and I can't find it. But there was something that I was like, is is this a Wortham reference? And now I can't find my note that I made on it. Oh, well.
01:13:06
DarthSylar
But this is that sort of what it's this kind of is sort of hearkening back to. is like it's sort its but like it's It's influencing the youth, causing them to act out and and not act right.
01:13:18
Brev Work Computer
which is what they do, but they take the power back to, not to quote, Rage Against the Machine, which I just did, and they're inspired by a mythical figure that's better, that that that can say, that can do something.
01:13:24
Daryl
yeah
01:13:25
DarthSylar
Oh, no, no, no.
01:13:31
Brev Work Computer
Because she would have been like a kid, right? Four years old or something like that, because it's been 10 years since the Batman sightings.
01:13:36
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:13:36
Brev Work Computer
So she she would have been a little kid.
01:13:37
Daryl
Yep.
01:13:38
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:13:38
Brev Work Computer
And so shes he's always been just...
01:13:38
Daryl
She would have been three because he specifically says she's 13 at one point.
01:13:42
Brev Work Computer
Okay.
01:13:43
DarthSylar
Yep.
01:13:43
Brev Work Computer
Okay. Yeah. I knew she was young. And so it's a case of like, for her, she doesn't remember a time when he was there. And so for her, it's this story of like, Oh, this, this mythical hero and what, what can she do?
01:13:55
DarthSylar
It's come back when they need him. is like
01:13:57
Brev Work Computer
Exactly. Yeah.
01:13:58
DarthSylar
And again, like he had the mythical sign kick that also helped him.
01:14:04
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:14:05
DarthSylar
And it's like, so he can be that. is like and Going back to what you said, like this is very punk rock. Batman's punk rock.
01:14:13
Brev Work Computer
And then I love, I know we're kind bouncing around a little bit, but I love the fact that, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily Jason Todd's costume, but I love the, i it might be, but I love the um implication that Jason Todd was murdered.
01:14:26
Brev Work Computer
Like you see his costume enshrined and a couple of years later, it's death in the family.
01:14:27
Daryl
Yeah.
01:14:29
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:14:31
Brev Work Computer
So I thought that was really great.
01:14:32
Daryl
Yep. Yep. And new yeah, i mean part of me wonders how many of the people who who voted in that, who voted for him to die were like, well, he has to because Dark
01:14:35
Brev Work Computer
Predictive. Yeah.
01:14:43
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, which is just crazy. Yeah.
01:14:49
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, yeah. Little did they know. Alright, so then in issue two, we get Carrie.
01:14:54
Daryl
have you seen have you seen DC has put out an ad that you can call an 800 number to apologize for killing Jason.
01:15:04
Brev Work Computer
Nice. No, I have not seen.
01:15:05
Daryl
it's It's got it. It's got a picture of Jason as Red Hood holding the crowbar. And it says this, this Robin died because, you know, 7,000 of you called to kill him.
01:15:12
Brev Work Computer
oh my god.
01:15:19
Daryl
You can.
01:15:20
Brev Work Computer
Nice.
01:15:20
Daryl
ah Oh, I just saw that today.
01:15:23
DarthSylar
Hey, Superboy Prime can't take back that punch against the wall of reality.
01:15:24
Daryl
Sorry.
01:15:30
Brev Work Computer
Nice.
01:15:32
Daryl
Sorry, Brev, I cut you off. What were you about to say?
01:15:34
Brev Work Computer
No, I was going to say like, and so in issue two, right, you were just alluding to Daryl.
01:15:38
Daryl
Yeah.
01:15:39
Brev Work Computer
Like you think, okay, who's going be the rogues gallery next? And it's not, it's more than it's the mutants that show up, right?
01:15:46
Daryl
Yep.
01:15:46
Brev Work Computer
That's the main, the main driver of the, of the, uh, the antagonist there.
01:15:49
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:50
Brev Work Computer
But I think it's, as but it's important that they, he now fights the underbelly of the city.
01:15:55
DarthSylar
A modern villain.
01:15:56
Brev Work Computer
Right.
01:15:57
Daryl
yeah
01:15:57
DarthSylar
A modern villain, a new evil that's cropped up from the underbelly.
01:16:03
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:16:03
Daryl
And I will say this as I was rereading this issue. It had been so long since I had read the whole thing again. How much of my memory of the sequence of events was colored by the Dark Knight mini adaptation segment of that one episode of Batman the Animated Series?
01:16:23
DarthSylar
um the but From BTAS. yeah
01:16:26
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:16:27
Daryl
Because i I forgot that he had two fights with the mutant leader.
01:16:33
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
01:16:35
Daryl
Because that segment kind of combined them into one.
01:16:36
DarthSylar
The
01:16:38
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:16:40
DarthSylar
the more accurate version of that is from the from the more recent two-part Batman and Dark Knight Returns part one and two animated films.
01:16:51
DarthSylar
They do properly do it into two parts, the fight.
01:16:54
Daryl
Yeah, but you know Michael Ironside is the Dark Knight version of Batman? Come on.
01:16:59
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, that's cool. and it If we're going to talk about this sequence, we're going talk about the Batmobile.
01:17:06
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:17:07
Daryl
Yes.
01:17:07
Brev Work Computer
and We'll talk about it, Nick.
01:17:10
Daryl
Go.
01:17:11
DarthSylar
it's It's beautiful.
01:17:14
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:17:15
DarthSylar
Honestly, it's
01:17:18
DarthSylar
it fully turns this from Batman in the future into Batman and Cyberpunk.
01:17:24
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:17:25
DarthSylar
the The articulated... Elating face plate that looks like a bat that has its firing rubber bullet bullets and fireworks.
01:17:36
Daryl
Honest.
01:17:37
DarthSylar
The massiveness of the tank. The the way it's crossing fruit through the junkyard and Carrie Kelly parkouring her way around it.
01:17:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. It's so cool.
01:17:50
Daryl
Yeah, that that is definitely, even more than the second fight with the leader, this is the one that, that or that that was the second one, wasn't it?
01:17:50
Brev Work Computer
it
01:17:58
DarthSylar
It's... Yeah, that's the first one.
01:18:00
Brev Work Computer
No, that's the first one.
01:18:01
Daryl
Yeah, so, yeah.
01:18:01
Brev Work Computer
It's the first one. He shows up because Batman's kind of arrogant about it He's bringing like, he brings his Batmobile and then he hops out of the Batmobile.
01:18:02
Daryl
Yeah.
01:18:05
Daryl
Yeah.
01:18:07
Brev Work Computer
And I remember reading it going like this.
01:18:07
DarthSylar
because Because he's confronted, and so it like, even though he has him right in the sights, and it's it's iconic because the Batmobile tank is like towering over the mutant leader, it even like, it again, since it has an articulating faceplate, it sort of looks like it's glaring down at him.
01:18:09
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
01:18:17
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:18:25
DarthSylar
And...
01:18:25
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:18:26
DarthSylar
But Batman has to be like, I have to know if I can still fight.
01:18:31
Brev Work Computer
Yes. And he gets his ass kicked and Carrie, Carrie, Carrie kind of saves him.
01:18:34
DarthSylar
He gets it. is
01:18:36
Brev Work Computer
He saves her sort of thing, which she's able to get his body back to the back game or at least into the the Batmobile. Right. And then takes him back to the back.
01:18:43
DarthSylar
And it takes it back to the cave.
01:18:44
Brev Work Computer
de Yeah.
01:18:45
DarthSylar
and is's like
01:18:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:18:45
Daryl
yeah
01:18:46
DarthSylar
but it's it's it's It's a humbling moment, but it's like that whole initial sequence is like so cool.
01:18:53
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's gord it's gorgeous.
01:18:55
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
01:18:56
Brev Work Computer
it's it's both It's both gorgeous and sad because you're like, as a reader going, oh he's going to whip this guy's. No, he's not. He gets his ass kicked.
01:19:04
DarthSylar
it's It's literally like it's literally he him, as the kids say, or farming on the way in, and then, oh no, he e e he he really was too rocky.
01:19:04
Daryl
Yeah.
01:19:04
Brev Work Computer
at least
01:19:13
Daryl
Yeah. And for the first time in this story, we're like, and granted, it's only the second of four issues. But for the first time in this story, we're thinking, oh,
01:19:25
Daryl
He might not make it out of this story alive.
01:19:28
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it puts it puts death in a real as a real ah thing like it's ah it's a shadow over it now.
01:19:35
DarthSylar
I feel what helps is help sell that is Carrie Kelly, because he's again he's inspired by this mythic legend that has returned.
01:19:45
Brev Work Computer
hmm.
Superman’s Role and Authority Themes
01:19:46
DarthSylar
And watch him emerge with this massive behemoth of a vehicle and stand tall against the mutant leader, the this big bad of the city right now.
01:19:57
Daryl
And come out of the Batmobile in one of the most iconic shots of the entire miniseries.
01:19:57
DarthSylar
And they get his...
01:20:05
Brev Work Computer
and the Of of a Batman, period.
01:20:05
DarthSylar
And they get the snot beat out of him.
01:20:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:20:07
Daryl
Yeah.
01:20:11
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:20:11
DarthSylar
Right in front of her. But it sort of proves the the importance of Robin.
01:20:18
Brev Work Computer
Hmm.
01:20:19
DarthSylar
That they take them out of the situation.
01:20:19
Daryl
Yeah.
01:20:21
DarthSylar
That they're able to like... Her her her resolve isn't broken.
01:20:29
DarthSylar
She recognizes Robin's purpose is to help Batman, even if it means helping him limp back to the cave.
01:20:36
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are they are a dynamic duo.
01:20:41
Daryl
And now that I'm.
01:20:42
DarthSylar
Because again, like in in any other story, her seeing that would be like, oh my hero has been destroyed. she's like, I have to help them.
01:20:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:20:51
Brev Work Computer
Like and instead of it, cause she could easily then put down her own cape and whatever and said, I guess I backed the wrong horse, but instead you see the heroic nature of Carrie in that moment where she goes to, to fight the mutant leader.
01:20:52
Daryl
And.
01:21:04
Brev Work Computer
And then basically bats throws a whatever smoke grenade in his face and whatever.
01:21:09
DarthSylar
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:21:11
Brev Work Computer
and she manages to get him, but like, she stands up for him when he needs it the most, which shows her level of her her heroism as well, which is a great moment for her as a character.
01:21:23
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah. And getting back when they get back to the cave, um thinking back, is Miller the one who introduced snarky Alfred?
01:21:38
DarthSylar
I think so.
01:21:39
Brev Work Computer
I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know for sure, but I,
01:21:41
DarthSylar
yeah I
The Joker’s Reawakening
01:21:42
DarthSylar
can't guarantee that, but definitely it it's the most fitting of snarky Alfred, because like this is an Alfred who basically didn't want Bruce to do this, and is like, I don't want to do this anymore, Master Bruce.
01:21:44
Daryl
I don't.
01:21:57
Daryl
Yeah, I think he might be the one who introduced Snarky Alfred.
01:22:02
Brev Work Computer
You could be right.
01:22:02
Daryl
which which
01:22:03
Brev Work Computer
It would not surprise me.
01:22:05
Daryl
Which is a wonderful addition to Alfred's character.
01:22:08
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:22:09
DarthSylar
Oh, it's it's it's again like there's a lot of things that are quintessential Batman that come from this.
01:22:17
Daryl
Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. And um
01:22:23
Daryl
I just spaced on what I was about to say, so you guys riff.
01:22:25
Brev Work Computer
yeah Well, and then the and we get to see the the the real quick interlude at the White House. And we get to see that you know it's ah heavily implied that Superman is working for the government, the United States government, which is...
01:22:39
Daryl
Yep.
01:22:40
Brev Work Computer
And I'm going to borrow this from somebody else that said it on a YouTube. and It's not original bread, but I loved this. It was like somewhere along the way, Clark who lost truth and justice and just went with the American way.
01:22:55
DarthSylar
that's ah That's a good way of saying that.
01:22:56
Daryl
Oh, I do like that.
01:22:57
DarthSylar
ah is it good Also, um to to quote one of my friends when and I first words when i so first showed had them read, I gave them it as a Christmas gift, they said, like, why does Ronald Reagan look like a zombie in this?
01:22:58
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:23:16
DarthSylar
It's like, so that that's just route as this was Ronald Reagan.
01:23:16
Brev Work Computer
yeah
01:23:17
Daryl
ah
01:23:23
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Ain't giving no kidding. Right. He was at one point in time, the oldest elected president at one point in time.
01:23:27
Daryl
Oh, yoga yeah.
01:23:31
Brev Work Computer
Then we just had to, well and then we had to elect two other old guys.
01:23:31
Daryl
At one point in time.
01:23:35
Brev Work Computer
Anyway, we're not talking politics.
01:23:35
Daryl
Yep.
01:23:37
Brev Work Computer
oh But yeah, no.
01:23:37
Daryl
yeah
01:23:38
Brev Work Computer
So, and then they get back to the Batcave and then, you know, she helps him.
01:23:38
Daryl
ah
01:23:41
Brev Work Computer
And then really the rest of this issue is focused on him kind of almost dark night rises sort of thing, which is by brothers later is like, she's learning about her role and then he's getting back to health so that he can then go take on the the mutant leader again.
01:23:55
DarthSylar
And again, he's coming out of a plan. he's like He tried brute forcing it.
01:23:58
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:24:01
DarthSylar
he's like he can't prove it's It's very much like like a like in the Rocky Balboa movie where he was older.
01:24:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:24:08
DarthSylar
was like he can't He can't keep up with the young blood in a fight. He needs to be smart.
01:24:14
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:24:14
Daryl
Yep.
01:24:15
Brev Work Computer
You know, I will say the Rocky franchise has a lot of highs and lows, I think, but I really liked the movie Rocky Balboa.
01:24:15
Daryl
And so...
01:24:20
Brev Work Computer
I thought that was it.
01:24:21
DarthSylar
Oh yeah, its it's it's honestly one of my favorites.
01:24:24
Brev Work Computer
It's, it's a, it's a top for me and I'm not the very top, but it's one of them.
01:24:26
DarthSylar
Because it again like it's it's very much like that that whole line is like, he's faster than you, just as strong as you see.
01:24:28
Brev Work Computer
So yeah.
01:24:35
DarthSylar
You gotta pack every punch into that. You got i'll think you i gotta to be ready to punch him with some hurting bombs.
01:24:41
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:24:42
DarthSylar
like that That whole sequence of training was really good.
01:24:42
Brev Work Computer
So there's, this is great. There's a panel and I don't know which, I don't know which page it's on.
01:24:46
DarthSylar
it really it really It really puts it in for this one, yeah.
01:24:50
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. I it's, it's as it's as Carrie is, is infiltrating the Cyclops gang. As I remember thinking when they were, when I was a kid, the mutants site with their little Cyclops type visors on the yellow and red.
01:25:01
DarthSylar
And again, they I do love how they are very clockwork Aurons, like ah they're slaying...
01:25:01
Daryl
yeah
01:25:04
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:25:07
Brev Work Computer
There is this panel right in there.
01:25:08
DarthSylar
slicing dice!
01:25:10
Brev Work Computer
And if you guys have the the book in front of you, it's it's when you see the bat symbol again on that big, dark building. It's in silhouetted.
01:25:19
Daryl
On the tower.
01:25:19
DarthSylar
Oh yeah!
01:25:20
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And you see the, I love, love that.
01:25:20
DarthSylar
On the tower!
01:25:23
Daryl
Yeah.
01:25:24
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
01:25:25
Brev Work Computer
think that image is so cool. i I'm a sucker for the bat symbol though. I mean, I love, I love seeing it in the sky. It's so awesome.
01:25:32
DarthSylar
it's
01:25:32
Daryl
they
01:25:33
DarthSylar
Whenever it's done, and i love whenever it's done unique ways. Like like we brought back up we brought up the Dark Knight Rises. like when it was When it was burning on the bridge, at that moment, like in a movie that had so little hope at that moment, it's like, like that like it literally it was like my whole theater was like, YES!
01:25:43
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yes. yes
01:25:56
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:25:57
Daryl
i don't know which copy of the trade paperback either of you has or had, but that shot was so iconic that they did a very, a painted variation of that as the cover for the first trade paperback.
01:26:13
DarthSylar
Oh, that's cool!
01:26:13
Brev Work Computer
Yes, and it has Batman behind it and the bat symbol is shining.
01:26:16
Daryl
Yeah.
01:26:16
Brev Work Computer
it So I saw that as a t-shirt in 89 and I begged my parents to buy it for me and they wouldn't because it was like really expensive.
01:26:17
Daryl
Yeah.
01:26:18
DarthSylar
I don't have that one.
01:26:24
Brev Work Computer
So I never got that t-shirt. I've always wanted it as a poster though, like to hang in my house be like, that is one of my favorite Batman movies.
01:26:29
Daryl
Yeah.
01:26:30
DarthSylar
And you never talk to them ever again.
01:26:32
Brev Work Computer
Um, there's a long story, Nick, but I'll give you the real, real short one where, um, I was handed a $500 check for, for college graduation by my mother. And then my father said, Hey, don't cash that yet because, um, you know, there's not not enough money in the account. And so I waited two months and then I said, going to cash it. And my mother said, well, no, you can't because we already, we already bought you health insurance for that money.
01:26:56
Brev Work Computer
I'm like, I didn't ask for health insurance. Like, well, we needed it. So we bought it for you. And that, that $500 is gone. So I've always remembered that moment. I'm not petty, but or vindictive.
01:27:07
Brev Work Computer
I just remember things. so Oh.
01:27:09
Daryl
Well, Nick, that trade paperback copy is the one that I have. i've i have I have bought this story three times. I bought the individual issues.
01:27:19
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:27:20
Daryl
I have that trade paperback.
01:27:22
DarthSylar
All right, putting back on on on the on the on the the ski mask.
01:27:22
Daryl
And and what when they released that ice when when they released that nice at the time, complete Frank Miller Batman that had year one, wanted Santa Claus dead and alive and Dark Knight Returns.
01:27:28
DarthSylar
I just need oven gloves to defeat the cats.
01:27:43
Daryl
I got that. Which that that was this that was only like 20 bucks.
01:27:50
Brev Work Computer
yeah that's incredible
01:27:52
Daryl
So. So i those are the three that I have.
01:27:54
DarthSylar
So we're breaking into Daryl's house when?
01:27:58
Brev Work Computer
yeah yeah yeah we don't have a good alibi though because there's a recording of us talking about larceny but that's okay yeah would they certainly would it would be a slow painful death yes
01:28:04
Daryl
Yes. Yes. ah And the cats really would kill Brev.
01:28:11
Daryl
ah Allergies.
01:28:16
Brev Work Computer
So then he goes back to the mutants, right? After Carrie's kind of infiltrated them for him.
01:28:19
Daryl
Yeah.
01:28:19
Brev Work Computer
And then he systematically.
01:28:21
DarthSylar
so set up a ah ah fight and This is some iconic Batman lines.
01:28:26
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. This is so good.
01:28:28
Daryl
Yeah.
01:28:30
Brev Work Computer
You don't get it, boy.
01:28:30
Daryl
Yeah. i
01:28:32
Brev Work Computer
This isn't a mud hole. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon. Fucking awesome.
01:28:37
Daryl
Yeah.
01:28:39
Brev Work Computer
ah
01:28:39
DarthSylar
And it's like, oh, that again, that goes that goes back to to the Batman The Animated Series condensing of it, and it's
01:28:40
Daryl
ah I would. would So.
01:28:52
DarthSylar
It's so good, that line delivery.
01:28:55
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm. And I love at the end of the fight, would you would you look at the the media reaction, all this?
01:28:57
Daryl
ah yeah. Yeah.
01:29:01
Brev Work Computer
I can't help but wonder there's this white guy in a suit. He's got red hair and glasses, sunglasses. I'm like, is that Matt Murdoch?
01:29:11
Daryl
ah
01:29:12
DarthSylar
I think that... the No, yeah, there I think...
01:29:14
Daryl
It was, it might have been intended to be.
01:29:14
DarthSylar
i think
01:29:18
Daryl
and
01:29:18
Brev Work Computer
I'm I'm very sure that that's that's that's Miller's nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
01:29:23
DarthSylar
But wait, then how could he watch the media?
01:29:24
Daryl
Yeah,
01:29:25
Brev Work Computer
you Well, okay. yeah but How did he watch television?
01:29:27
Daryl
yeah.
01:29:29
Brev Work Computer
yeah Yes. And then we move into issue three where you got swastika boobs.
01:29:32
Daryl
I mean, I, yep.
01:29:35
Brev Work Computer
So, yeah.
01:29:36
DarthSylar
Oh, yeah.
01:29:38
Daryl
Yep, and
01:29:39
DarthSylar
I love i love how we did that that that's the first thing that we meant.
01:29:43
Brev Work Computer
yeah
01:29:43
DarthSylar
I mean, it's kind of hard to...
01:29:44
Brev Work Computer
this is This is the moment where if you're if you're reading this backwards, right? you're reading miller's Frank Miller's like comic bibliography or whatever you call it. So you've already read some Sin City or you're aware of Sin City and you know enough about it. You see this and you're like, of course.
01:30:02
Brev Work Computer
Of course, because that's this Scream Sin City, which you'll make later.
01:30:06
Daryl
Yes.
01:30:06
DarthSylar
But this was like this was a beforehand, so it was a bit...
01:30:07
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Yes.
01:30:11
DarthSylar
Like... That's a choice.
01:30:13
Daryl
Oh yeah.
01:30:14
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:30:14
Daryl
I remember 16 year old me opening up that issue and seeing that and I was like, I don't know what to make of this. ah This is an ADC comic.
01:30:22
Brev Work Computer
I'm... Yeah. Yeah,
01:30:25
DarthSylar
to 10 year old me was like, I have very conflicting feelings about this.
01:30:29
Brev Work Computer
it's...
01:30:32
Brev Work Computer
that
01:30:33
DarthSylar
Because also, I was an avid...
01:30:33
Daryl
But the,
01:30:35
DarthSylar
every learner about like everything in World War II, so I was like, I have no idea how I feel about any of this right now.
01:30:43
Brev Work Computer
Yes. Yeah, it was definitely a moment. I forget the, is it the night Porter? Um, that neo-Nazi movie where the, where the Jewish woman dresses up in, uh, she's basically a slave to an ex Nazi.
01:30:55
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:30:56
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And she dresses up in Nazi garb to seduce him and all that sort of stuff. It's got that feel going on where you're like, Ooh, I'm, this is, this is definitely evocative.
01:31:06
Brev Work Computer
I mean, like I'm, I'm getting something here.
01:31:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:31:08
DarthSylar
I am feeling like...
01:31:11
DarthSylar
And I think it's supposed to be conflicting emotions. I still feel conflicting emotions.
01:31:14
Brev Work Computer
I still have a problem.
01:31:15
DarthSylar
But they're different now than then.
01:31:15
Daryl
yeah
01:31:18
DarthSylar
But still, it's like... I'm not entirely certain what I'm supposed to be getting from this.
01:31:23
Brev Work Computer
and Doesn't she have like swastika on each ass cheek as well?
01:31:24
DarthSylar
But I'm certainly...
01:31:26
Brev Work Computer
Is that right?
01:31:27
Daryl
Yes.
01:31:27
Brev Work Computer
Yes. I mean.
01:31:28
DarthSylar
Yes.
01:31:28
Daryl
Yes, because because she has like assless chaps on or something.
01:31:32
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:31:32
Brev Work Computer
Right.
01:31:33
DarthSylar
And it's like...
01:31:33
Brev Work Computer
Right.
01:31:33
DarthSylar
It's like... I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to... We've been spending lot time analyzing analyzing like a lot of like the the story and motifs here. This one, I'm still like not sure what I'm supposed to be getting for here.
01:31:50
Brev Work Computer
that the world has gone crazy and Bats is there to stop it and then you get this great iconic image of him and and a Batman and Carrie or Robin I guess we should say now like jumping through the sky and it's just like this is awesome this is so cool yes
01:31:53
Daryl
yeah Yep. Yep.
01:31:55
DarthSylar
I guess that... that
01:32:00
DarthSylar
Yep.
01:32:04
DarthSylar
its it'sla It's both classic, but but new. it it's It's taking Batman and Robin and making them serious and cool.
01:32:16
DarthSylar
when they sort of Again, again it's it's in the public.
01:32:16
Brev Work Computer
mm-hmm
01:32:19
DarthSylar
again Because remember, its again it goes back to the Adam West days. Batman and Robin, silly duos. This is them looking like, this is a team.
01:32:31
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:32:32
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah. hu I found my Wortham note, but we haven't gotten to that part of this issue yet. ah
01:32:43
Daryl
But we we also get the true introduction of Superman to the story in this issue.
01:32:48
DarthSylar
Yep.
01:32:48
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Yep.
01:32:50
Daryl
And you can't even refer to him in the media.
01:32:57
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
01:32:59
DarthSylar
Yeah, there iss a there's a whole lot going on with this interpretation of the Superman.
01:33:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I love it.
01:33:07
Daryl
Well, i I want to say i remember reading once that Miller doesn't vibe with Superman. And so all of that got put on the page.
01:33:19
DarthSylar
And it feels that way. it's like I'm going to be honest. like This Superman is not my ideal Superman.
01:33:30
Brev Work Computer
Well, no, because he's, he's, you know,
01:33:33
Daryl
He's an antagonist in this story.
01:33:34
DarthSylar
skewed.
01:33:35
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah, and and he's a government stooge, right?
01:33:36
DarthSylar
And is it is skewed. And it's skewed.
01:33:38
Daryl
Yeah.
01:33:39
DarthSylar
I can accept Superman as an antagonist. I just don't like the interpretation of a Superman as an antagonist in this.
01:33:48
Daryl
so
01:33:48
DarthSylar
But I like the story that they're telling.
01:33:51
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:33:51
Daryl
So,
01:33:51
DarthSylar
That's why I'm glad it's an Elseworlds. This is not the main Superman.
01:33:57
Daryl
speaking of the impact that Dark Knight had on wider DC, how much of of other contemporary DC to this were were either of you reading at the time or after.
01:34:15
Brev Work Computer
Honestly, d DC for me has been kind of a come and go at times.
01:34:19
DarthSylar
I've been mostly Marvel, especially at that time.
01:34:20
Daryl
because
01:34:20
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Marvel. marvel was
01:34:21
Daryl
because
01:34:22
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Marvel was my jam and it has been for years. I I've read like, i mean, I dare, I didn't read crisis on infinite earths until I was in college and and picked up the trade.
01:34:30
Daryl
So.
01:34:32
Brev Work Computer
So
01:34:33
Daryl
That's fair. And that's that's part of why I asked.
01:34:33
DarthSylar
think I read christ figure right quick figure every Crisis shortly after I read this, yeah.
01:34:35
Brev Work Computer
yeah.
01:34:36
Daryl
That's part of why I asked.
01:34:39
Daryl
Because around this same time, or not long after this, is when John Byrne did his post-crisis Man of Steel relaunch.
01:34:48
Brev Work Computer
I did read some of that.
01:34:50
Daryl
And
01:34:50
DarthSylar
i figure yeah I think I had i figure i read a rid a volume of that.
01:34:54
Daryl
and not so much in the Man of Steel miniseries itself, but in the ongoing Superman book that Byrne did.
01:34:58
Brev Work Computer
hmm.
01:35:03
Daryl
Just like in this, there were several scenes of... Superman doing walk-in talks with Reagan at the White House.
01:35:14
Brev Work Computer
So despite being a Canadian through and through John Byrne very much loves from what I understand, loves conservative American politicians.
01:35:25
DarthSylar
That's from what I've gathered.
01:35:26
Daryl
That would appear to be the case, yeah.
01:35:27
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yes.
01:35:28
Daryl
but i mean and you know so the The artwork was was great, and partly it's a matter of comics have traditionally up to a point.
01:35:40
Brev Work Computer
to
01:35:40
Daryl
ah Whenever there's the president depicted, it's always whoever is currently president.
01:35:45
Brev Work Computer
Correct.
01:35:45
DarthSylar
Easily, yes.
01:35:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:35:47
Daryl
So.
01:35:47
Brev Work Computer
I remember an X-Men issue where, where the, they were playing so baseball and the baseball goes way up in the sky because the Colossus road goes and gets it. And she passes by air force one and kisses the window and Ronald Reagan's in there, you know?
01:35:59
Brev Work Computer
So yeah. yeah Yeah.
01:36:01
Daryl
And so.
01:36:01
DarthSylar
Oh, she was so close to ending
01:36:04
Brev Work Computer
Oh, she got it. That's all that.
01:36:06
Daryl
And, you know, like there's there's a see i the panel that is burned into my memory for some reason is. Superman and Reagan walking through the Rose Garden and Superman has his hands clasped behind his back, you know, with ah behind his cape, not behind his not between his back and his cape, but they're like wrapped around the cape, so the cape is kind of held behind him and walking in.
01:36:31
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yes.
01:36:33
Daryl
as ah I don't know why that panel is burned into my memory, but I remember it.
01:36:37
Brev Work Computer
is It's burned into
01:36:38
DarthSylar
It is...
Superman’s Government Struggles
01:36:39
Brev Work Computer
your memory.
01:36:39
Brev Work Computer
ah Like John Byrne.
01:36:40
Daryl
Yes.
01:36:41
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:36:41
Daryl
Yes, pun fully intended.
01:36:42
DarthSylar
Honestly, I can see why, because that's kind a...
01:36:43
Daryl
I'm going to take credit for it.
01:36:45
DarthSylar
it's kind of a kind of a show of deep deference and respect, if you think about it. Like your hands are being sewn behind, not not being hidden, so that's because that would be considered like duplicitous if he was hidden behind his cape.
01:36:53
Daryl
Yeah.
01:36:53
Brev Work Computer
Sure.
01:36:53
Daryl
Yeah.
01:37:02
DarthSylar
So it's definitely a sign of deep respect and honor.
01:37:06
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And John Byrne is a hell of a storyteller. I mean, like he, he's a great artist.
01:37:11
DarthSylar
yeah, yeah.
01:37:11
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:37:12
Brev Work Computer
ah Yeah. So, and, and this is just this, you know, as I've gotten older and thought about the story more, this is what happens. You put on a D and D parlance for a moment. This is what happens when the paladin starts to,
01:37:26
Brev Work Computer
take the the the the kingdom too seriously, right? Like I have to do what's right because it's also the law and it's and it's what I believe is right.
01:37:30
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:37:30
Daryl
yeah
01:37:35
Brev Work Computer
and i've made too many compromise and and And Clark in here has made too many compromises that Bruce isn't willing to make. and And I love this this contention and frankly, i you know I know it's in issue four we're just issue three, but I like how it resolves.
01:37:44
Daryl
Yeah.
01:37:52
Brev Work Computer
I think it's a great resolution.
01:37:53
Daryl
Yeah.
01:37:53
DarthSylar
Can we talk about the most the iconic Superman part and also kind of the
01:37:53
Brev Work Computer
like
01:37:59
DarthSylar
most hilarious image of Superman ah posing on a rock and an eagle landing on his...
01:38:06
Brev Work Computer
Yes. yeah i was just looking at that. Yeah. Yeah.
01:38:10
DarthSylar
And is's like it's It's so outrageous and parody that it is iconic.
01:38:10
Brev Work Computer
it's
01:38:15
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:38:17
DarthSylar
It's like...
01:38:18
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:38:19
DarthSylar
It's supposed to be so outrageously...
01:38:19
Daryl
Well, and...
01:38:22
DarthSylar
ah Okay, we get it.
01:38:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:38:24
DarthSylar
All-American apple pie.
01:38:24
Daryl
When we get...
01:38:26
DarthSylar
he But it's like, he's... It's less the case, like normally that'd be like showing that he's a strong warrior for America, but in this case he's he's subservient, like he's under the eagle.
01:38:39
Daryl
Well, we get some narration from Clark while he's... operating in a shooting war in Cordo Maltese as on behalf of the government.
01:38:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:38:50
DarthSylar
Yes.
01:38:51
Daryl
But we get some narration from him mentioning how they used Bruce against the heroes and that there were parents groups complaining.
01:39:03
Daryl
And that's my note that I was like, is this kind of a let let's write Wortham large in this story?
01:39:12
DarthSylar
Oh yeah!
01:39:14
Brev Work Computer
Maybe.
01:39:16
DarthSylar
Honestly, I was going with the Carrie Kelly thing, but both could be true from different points of view.
01:39:16
Daryl
And,
01:39:22
Daryl
and but, but yeah, that this is when we, wrong franchise, Nick.
01:39:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, there you go.
01:39:28
Daryl
um We, ah we get that narration, that background saying that the government started coming after the heroes.
01:39:38
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:39:38
Daryl
And part of it was because of the more violent down-to-earth hero, Batman.
01:39:47
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:39:48
Daryl
And so the the reason Clark made these compromises is, well, the only way I can keep doing what I'm doing is if I compromise. Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing?
01:40:00
Daryl
That's up to us to decide as the readers.
01:40:00
DarthSylar
Point 35.
01:40:03
Daryl
But I think it's pretty clear what Miller wants us to think.
01:40:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. I mean, it's, there's no bones about it. Right. I mean, even, even to the point where Clark is still young and handsome and boyish and then Bruce is over here, 70 years old, even though they're around the same age.
01:40:18
Daryl
No, no.
01:40:19
Brev Work Computer
So it's like in this, no, he's gotta be 70.
01:40:20
Daryl
Bruce is 55.
01:40:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:40:25
Daryl
when When he...
01:40:25
DarthSylar
and sixty five
01:40:27
Daryl
At the end of 4, it's like... After... Spoiler alert, kids.
01:40:33
Brev Work Computer
yeah
01:40:34
Daryl
after he After he is quote-unquote dead on the newscast, they say the millionaire was 55 years old.
01:40:37
Brev Work Computer
hello Oh, you're right. Fuck this. This is bullshit.
01:40:43
Daryl
Exactly. Exactly. exactly that that's where i was gonna say brev let's feel old here he was 55.
01:40:47
Brev Work Computer
All You're right. Yeah, Jesus.
01:40:52
DarthSylar
Well, none of us have been trained by Tibetan monks, have we?
01:40:52
Brev Work Computer
was
01:40:53
Daryl
we
01:40:56
DarthSylar
Yeah. I was there. tibetan monks have we
01:40:59
Brev Work Computer
That's true. I do have an interesting question for you all. You guys both saw James Gunn's Superman, right? So I was thinking it about that. did you see it, Nick? Okay.
01:41:10
Brev Work Computer
So when you...
01:41:10
Daryl
we we all saw it as a group
01:41:10
DarthSylar
was there
01:41:11
Brev Work Computer
Oh, that's right. So when you when you contrast this Superman who's working for the president with the Superman that James Gunn depicts where he's his own agent. He's doing things because people are going to hurt other people.
01:41:24
Brev Work Computer
People were dying and I'm doing what I need to do because I want to save people.
01:41:27
DarthSylar
That's Superman.
01:41:29
Brev Work Computer
That is an interesting contrast opposed to what Miller sees as the eventual end of Superman, so to speak, is i have i have lost...
01:41:29
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:41:41
Brev Work Computer
that because I'm working for the American government because I believe they're the most right. Not lowercase, a lowercase R, not capital R. But, you know, yeah, you got get it.
01:41:50
DarthSylar
Yeah. But again, it's it again it's it's him critiquing that entirely.
01:41:51
Brev Work Computer
good
01:41:55
DarthSylar
It's like,
01:41:55
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:41:56
DarthSylar
Superman is a student of the government, so therefore a representative of the government. Powerful, strong, but ultimately being wielded by unworthy hands.
01:42:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:42:07
Daryl
home
01:42:08
Brev Work Computer
Good point.
01:42:08
Daryl
You know, think just a thought that just occurred to me, thinking again about the long shadow that Dark Knight has cast on DC, and rightly so, i wonder if this deference to the government that...
01:42:18
Brev Work Computer
Hmm.
01:42:26
Daryl
Miller is really the first one that, really well, I guess not, because in the 60s, Superboy revealed his secret identity to Kennedy because, well, if I can't trust the president, who can I trust?
01:42:40
Brev Work Computer
Ha ha ha.
01:42:41
Daryl
but But it really hit its peak with Miller's representation of Superman here in Dark Knight Returns.
01:42:51
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:42:51
Daryl
Could that have been one of the I would love to talk to the Superman writing crew from the time, but could that have been one of the sparks of Genesis for the President Lex storyline?
01:42:58
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:43:05
DarthSylar
It could.
01:43:06
Brev Work Computer
Could be.
01:43:07
DarthSylar
It could be.
01:43:07
Daryl
Because we we know that they ultimately revealed that Lex's motivation was, if I'm the president, he has to defer to me.
01:43:15
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:43:17
DarthSylar
and he he And Lex even becomes the president in The Dark Knight Strikes Back, the sequel to this.
01:43:17
Daryl
And so...
01:43:25
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:43:26
Daryl
It's been so... I've only read that all the way through once.
01:43:28
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:43:29
Daryl
I hate what they did to my boy, Dick c Grayson.
01:43:31
Brev Work Computer
fifty
01:43:31
Daryl
I hate what Frank did to my boy.
01:43:31
DarthSylar
That is
01:43:34
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:43:35
DarthSylar
that that is that is
01:43:35
Brev Work Computer
I don't even remember. I read it once. so I was like, eh. Um,
01:43:39
DarthSylar
yeah That is what happened. Lex is the president.
01:43:41
Daryl
Well, so...
01:43:42
Brev Work Computer
but even let But Lex becomes the president of the United States in the mainline DC comics as well.
01:43:42
Daryl
So... Yeah.
01:43:46
Daryl
Yeah.
01:43:46
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:43:47
Brev Work Computer
And that that end to what Daryl's saying is like, because then Superman has to defer to him because he is now the American way. He was voted to that level.
01:43:54
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
01:43:54
Brev Work Computer
But I always thought that that was, I thought when I first heard that, I was like, that's freaking genius because Lex in a power suit, as fun and as cool as that is, a Superman can take him out in the parachute, but what does he do if he's behind the Oval law behind in the oval Office behind the, the i what do you call it, the Resolute Desk?
01:44:10
Daryl
Yeah.
01:44:13
Daryl
The Resolute Desk.
01:44:14
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, how how's what's he going to do?
01:44:14
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:44:15
Brev Work Computer
He can't do anything.
01:44:18
DarthSylar
Well, he does something in the the Justice League card cartoon, but then he becomes a Justice Lord Superfane.
01:44:18
Daryl
Yeah.
01:44:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I mean, like and even if Lex grabbed her by the pussy, he couldn't do anything, right? Yeah.
01:44:29
Daryl
But I and i totally spaced on what I was about to say.
01:44:32
Brev Work Computer
I used a very inflammatory word so I can see why.
01:44:36
Daryl
Yes, you you you have you have me distracted now.
01:44:37
DarthSylar
Yeah, yeah.
01:44:39
Daryl
You you know like in Up when it's like Squirrel?
01:44:39
Brev Work Computer
yeah
01:44:40
DarthSylar
Uh-huh.
01:44:42
Daryl
Yeah.
01:44:43
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:44:44
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
01:44:44
Brev Work Computer
Hey, Stephanie, you feeling
Joker’s Chaotic Legacy
01:44:45
Brev Work Computer
any better? or But then we have this like, and then it's the whole Joker thing in this third issue. And I love this.
01:44:51
Daryl
yeah
01:44:52
Brev Work Computer
This one, when I was a kid, I was like, this is cool.
01:44:53
DarthSylar
Oh, I mean, this is probably...
01:44:55
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:44:55
Daryl
ah yeah
01:44:59
DarthSylar
I'm surprised that this Joker interpretation isn't as like well known. i like it a lot because it is very much like...
01:45:04
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:45:08
DarthSylar
It's very... It's truly disturbingly psychotic.
01:45:12
Brev Work Computer
a
01:45:13
Daryl
let Let me tell you, when i when I read this this time through,
01:45:16
DarthSylar
Like Sivers, Sivers gives me Sivers.
01:45:20
Daryl
what
01:45:20
Brev Work Computer
yep
01:45:21
Daryl
when whenever the Joker spoke... So, peek behind my psychosis. When I read Batman comics, ever since the early 90s, I hear Kevin Conroy in my head.
01:45:34
DarthSylar
Same.
01:45:34
Brev Work Computer
Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay.
01:45:37
Daryl
what and for the joker i hear mark hamill in my head when i read these joker scenes do you know who was originally cast to voice the joker on batman the animated series tim curry
01:45:41
Brev Work Computer
I could see that.
01:45:41
DarthSylar
Yep.
01:45:51
Brev Work Computer
Cesar Romero.
01:45:52
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:45:53
Brev Work Computer
No. I could see that. Yeah.
01:45:55
DarthSylar
Oh!
01:45:55
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:45:56
Daryl
and and they decided that he was too scary as the joker i heard
01:46:00
Brev Work Computer
I could see that he be can't he was he was just recently a clown.
01:46:00
DarthSylar
I can see that.
01:46:05
Daryl
Yeah, I heard Tim Curry.
01:46:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:46:08
DarthSylar
You know what? I can see. Oh, that's an extra tingle.
01:46:11
Brev Work Computer
I like that. I like that. I like that a lot because Tim Curry has obviously a certain level of ah ah femininity.
01:46:22
Brev Work Computer
i don't know I'm saying that right, but like he has some feminine qualities to him.
01:46:24
Daryl
Yeah.
01:46:26
Brev Work Computer
This Joker is obviously drawn, I think, ah very almost androgynously.
01:46:31
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:46:32
Brev Work Computer
and so...
01:46:33
DarthSylar
Yes.
01:46:33
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
01:46:35
DarthSylar
He has a child line that's masculine, but it's the lips and the eyes. Yeah.
01:46:40
Brev Work Computer
Yes. It reminds me going back to a place of Sandman.
01:46:41
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:46:43
Brev Work Computer
It reminds me of desire. What later they did with that, with that character is kind of making it like, you're not sure.
01:46:45
DarthSylar
yeah
01:46:45
Daryl
Yeah.
01:46:49
Brev Work Computer
It's almost David Bowie esque androgyny Tilda Swinton before there's a Tilda Swinton really. So it's like, it's like just fits.
01:46:54
DarthSylar
yeah
01:46:56
Brev Work Computer
And so Tim Curry having the voice, you know, Dr. Frank and for, or I can totally see that happening. And I love the fact that the Joker is like a small through line, a little subplot. That's the other thing comics they don't have is subplots. It's everything is the A plot. There's no, there's no B plot. There's certainly no C plot. and it's kind of like, okay, well, if I don't like the A plot, I guess I just don't like this book.
01:47:15
Brev Work Computer
um
01:47:15
Daryl
Because the B and C plot don't make sense in the trade paperback.
01:47:18
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. You're Daryl. I hate that you're right all the time.
01:47:24
Brev Work Computer
You're absolutely 100% right.
01:47:24
DarthSylar
How do you think I How do you How do you think I feel all the time talking to him Brev
01:47:25
Brev Work Computer
Bringing it back to the trade paperback. So, but like, I love, I love how this like, yeah, damn it, Daryl. But like, I love the fact that Joker is just kind of like almost catatonic.
01:47:37
Brev Work Computer
And then when he sees Batman return, he's like, oh, I wake up because my, my buddy is back.
01:47:43
DarthSylar
Oh, the first line, Batman, darling, is like, oh.
01:47:43
Daryl
yeah
01:47:48
Daryl
Yeah, that that's where I heard Tim Curry.
01:47:48
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm.
01:47:49
DarthSylar
I was like, it was like, it's like and it's just like, oh, don't don't say that, don't say that.
01:47:52
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. dar
01:47:57
Brev Work Computer
But I wonder what the commentary Frank Miller is trying to say with Joker being effeminate.
01:48:06
DarthSylar
I think it is, but and it's been touched upon, especially in Scott Snyder's stuff, the sort of the, Joker is obsessed with but Batman to a degree that ah is almost, like, to a degree some semi-romantic, semi-sexual, somewhat homicidal.
01:48:17
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
01:48:30
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Just twisted.
01:48:31
DarthSylar
It straddles so many lines of lines to the point that you can't tell what it is, but it's like there's something... fundamentally he is just can't function without in fact the idea of the fact that he's caught catatonic without batman
01:48:40
Daryl
Well, and
01:48:48
Daryl
well and those are all kind of traits that Grant Morrison picked up and ran with in the Arkham Asylum graphic novel.
01:48:57
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. He sure did.
01:48:59
DarthSylar
yep like a lot of it was kind of
01:49:00
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. and and this And was this the first time, though? like Because when I was a kid and I read Batman comics throughout, this is the first time we really get that put into stone to say like Miller's interpretation is these are these are two these are the these are two sides of the same coin, which is important.
01:49:05
Daryl
Yeah, as far as I can recall, yeah.
01:49:08
DarthSylar
I think this is like...
01:49:18
Brev Work Computer
you start with the story with Two-Face, right? And the coin. But now you have these two as like one is...
01:49:20
Daryl
hey
01:49:23
Brev Work Computer
one is order among chaos and one is chaos among order so and that is really driven down here
01:49:28
DarthSylar
And one is like... One can live without the other, but the other seems to like only function with the other. And then they add in like the... Everything that the Joker is a feminine sort of psycho-sexual energy that he has, and yet is like it adds to like the tension.
01:49:45
Brev Work Computer
yes
01:49:46
Daryl
Well, and what one thing that's kind of interesting... One thing that's kind of interesting about that, too, is he's presented in that very androgynous way until he's actually in direct conflict with Batman.
01:50:02
DarthSylar
Yeah, then he becomes more a angular, more
01:50:02
Brev Work Computer
hu
01:50:03
Daryl
At which point he is, yeah, he's he's bulkier. He he is deadlier when he's actually in direct conflict with Batman.
01:50:11
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:50:13
DarthSylar
Yep. Yeah.
01:50:16
Daryl
And yeah he he killed he killed David Letterman and Paul Schaefer and Dr.
01:50:21
Brev Work Computer
yeah Yeah, he sure did.
01:50:21
Daryl
Ruth.
01:50:24
Brev Work Computer
trying to make a he drew He was he is making an entrance.
01:50:24
Daryl
yeah
01:50:28
Daryl
Well, and i hi that too, that that's another moment where you know I distinctly heard Tim Curry's voice when you the the audience is all nervous on the talk show already.
01:50:40
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:50:41
Daryl
And he turns and, yeah He looks at Letterman, but the the angle of the shot is you see the audience and he says, I'm going to kill everyone in this studio.
01:50:52
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:50:54
Daryl
And that I just, I heard Tim Curry there again, but let let me tell you what, before I forget the, those little doll bomb things, those are, those have disturbed me since those have disturbed me for 40 years.
01:51:03
DarthSylar
Oh, I hate those things.
01:51:04
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:51:05
DarthSylar
I hate them. I hate them.
01:51:10
Brev Work Computer
They should.
01:51:10
DarthSylar
I hate them.
01:51:11
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:51:11
DarthSylar
I hate them.
01:51:12
Daryl
ah
01:51:13
DarthSylar
i Honestly, like I'm so glad that they have never showed up again. If they ever showed up again, I would put down a book immediately and leave the room because like I remember reading it like, oh, hell no. this This is not cool.
01:51:28
Brev Work Computer
So many faces, so different from one another. So few smiles.
01:51:32
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
01:51:36
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:51:37
Daryl
Yeah.
01:51:37
DarthSylar
oh it's just oh it's like again like if this was meant to reinvent batman is darker and grittier this re and people say like oh it's mostly the kelly joke but like no this this this started like the return of like the joker being a being a nightmare fuel
01:51:39
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:51:39
Daryl
ah
01:51:51
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah.
01:51:56
Brev Work Computer
Yes. I mean, well, Killing Joke comes out, what, a
Batman vs. Superman Ideological Battle
01:51:58
Brev Work Computer
year or two later? But you're right, Nick.
01:51:59
DarthSylar
yeah
01:51:59
Daryl
yeah
01:51:59
Brev Work Computer
This is this is the...
01:52:00
Daryl
yeah
01:52:00
Brev Work Computer
i I truly believe this is the moment where Alan Moore was like, you know, I've got an idea for Batman's story, but it's going more of a Joker story. So, doing my best, Alan Moore.
01:52:09
Daryl
to
01:52:11
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, and then we get went Alfred on a motorbike and... No, no, that's sorry, that's that's Bruce on the motorbike. yeah hidden Yeah, yeah, yeah, and a mask.
01:52:17
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:52:17
Daryl
yeah
01:52:18
Brev Work Computer
That's what always threw me. Yeah. And then we get, you know, the race to get to get the he finds Selena dressed up as Wonder Woman, which, you know, we all can imply what happened there. um
01:52:29
DarthSylar
That was...
01:52:29
Daryl
you know yep yep and yeah
01:52:29
DarthSylar
I guess there's a lot of the disturbing stuff in this one issue.
01:52:34
Brev Work Computer
This was this was the issue. I think was the most disturbing to me. And I think it's supposed to be.
01:52:37
DarthSylar
I think... I think...
01:52:38
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:52:39
DarthSylar
and then Again, it's again it's the the Joker issue, basically.
01:52:43
Daryl
Well, because it.
01:52:44
DarthSylar
So it's like... it's It really sounds like... The Joker in like such a short amount of time does some really horrific things.
01:52:52
Brev Work Computer
Yes, with the Boy Scouts.
01:52:53
DarthSylar
Even most of it's implied. and Some of it's implied, but a lot of it is shown and is like, yeah every time he's on see every time he's on panel,
01:52:55
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:53:03
DarthSylar
it feels uncomfortable
01:53:05
Brev Work Computer
Yes. They could put me in a helicopter and fly me up into the air and line the body's head to toe on the ground in a delightful geometric patterns like an endless June Taylor dancer's routine.
01:53:06
Daryl
Yeah, and.
01:53:20
Brev Work Computer
And it would never be enough. No, I don't keep count, but you do. And I love you for it.
01:53:28
DarthSylar
like Again, that that moment, like that line is like it's like so good and so twisted.
01:53:28
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. if
01:53:32
Brev Work Computer
if So good. hmm.
01:53:38
DarthSylar
Because again, you can't tell like if Joker's coming from it with like, I love you, Batman. It's like, I love torturing you. It could be both or neither or all at the same time.
01:53:46
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:53:49
Daryl
Yeah. i mean
01:53:50
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:53:50
Daryl
in the words In the words of Tony Stark, is it too much to ask for both?
01:53:54
Brev Work Computer
Yes, right. Well, it's just great because like you're saying, Nick, like Joker doesn't. He's the type of person that it's like, i don't keep count of all the times I've insulted you, but I know you remember, which is a more important to me that you remember what I do rather than what I remember. it you everyone i It's more important to me that you remember what I do than I remember what I do.
01:54:18
Brev Work Computer
Like I tell my kids all the time.
01:54:19
DarthSylar
like
01:54:19
Daryl
Yeah.
01:54:20
Brev Work Computer
I say funny shit all day long. i don't remember what I was. I'm glad you remember because it means I matter to you.
01:54:25
DarthSylar
yeahs like it again like that that's also like
01:54:25
Daryl
Yep.
01:54:28
DarthSylar
Batman remembers it all because that's that's that's someone he failed he he lost Joker's like I don't have to remember you just have to remember because I did it
01:54:33
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:54:39
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, that's right. I killed I killed 30 people. Oh, yeah, I guess I did. I don't think about it. But you obviously matter.
01:54:45
Daryl
Isn't that cool?
01:54:46
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's so great.
01:54:47
DarthSylar
And again, you can't tell. It's like is' like he loves him for like remembering him or that he loves Batman. It's like, I need you to be part of my life. Otherwise, I have nothing else left.
01:54:59
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, nobody cares like you do.
01:54:59
DarthSylar
Like, either way..................... this
01:55:01
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. It's a great line from, I think it's ah the importance of being earnest. The only thing worse than not being talked the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
01:55:13
Brev Work Computer
So maybe that's, maybe that's an, it's it's Oscar Wilde.
01:55:13
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
01:55:16
Brev Work Computer
I don't remember the play. So anyway. So then they go in the tunnel of love, which is homoerotic.
01:55:19
Daryl
Yep. Yep.
01:55:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:55:24
Daryl
I mean, that that ah that's just a total coincidence, Brev.
01:55:24
DarthSylar
And again, like it's it's not like it's been leading this way.
01:55:27
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:55:31
DarthSylar
It's like, honestly, I feel like this is the real time that they've actually explored that to a degree. It was like on the nose.
01:55:39
Brev Work Computer
Yes, Joker is stabbing Batman.
01:55:43
Daryl
Yep.
01:55:44
DarthSylar
is like,
01:55:45
Daryl
And
01:55:46
DarthSylar
its it's i On the nose, it so that sounds like to the point of parody, but honestly, it is fitting. but this this twisted affair of theirs their secret identities, their their connectiveness...
01:56:02
Brev Work Computer
He's just fishing buddies. Yeah.
01:56:06
DarthSylar
Again, like it's it's explored further by other storytellers, but I feel this is where they really, like, from beginning to end, I feel that this was Frank Biller's intention to explore the Joker-Batman dynamic.
01:56:10
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:56:21
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
01:56:22
Daryl
And it's also very, very fitting that you know since we're writing, quote unquote, the last Batman story, that Miller had gets to that, you know, the the inevitable question that everybody asks, why doesn't Batman just kill him?
01:56:30
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm.
01:56:31
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
01:56:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:56:43
Daryl
yeah Why doesn't he just kill him? even Even Batman himself is saying, you know this time I've got to do it because look at the shape that I'm in I can't keep doing this forever.
01:56:56
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:56:57
Daryl
So I finally have have to do it. And he still can't.
01:57:01
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm. So then Joker does like a Linda Blair and I was even as a kid, I had to reread this like did what happened just happen?
01:57:03
Daryl
He... he
01:57:10
Brev Work Computer
o
01:57:10
DarthSylar
Oh like, it it's like...
01:57:16
DarthSylar
Kudos to the Joker for having that much control over his neck muscles to literally snap his own goddamn neck.
01:57:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:57:24
DarthSylar
Out of spite!
01:57:24
Daryl
After being paralyzed.
01:57:26
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:57:27
DarthSylar
Out of pure spite for Batman!
01:57:31
Daryl
Well, out of pure spite, because he he says he hears the sirens coming and they will never believe that you didn't have the nerve.
01:57:36
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:57:41
Brev Work Computer
That's right. After everything I've done.
01:57:42
DarthSylar
Because
01:57:44
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
01:57:45
Brev Work Computer
help
01:57:45
DarthSylar
it's like, you're right.
01:57:48
DarthSylar
Considering the literal massacre he just did like, Batman coming out and being seemingly but not truly, truly as brutal as most people imagine him to be.
01:57:59
DarthSylar
like But it's like, Joker had, in this case, yeah, it'd be hard-pressed to be like, yeah, Batman killed him.
01:58:09
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
01:58:10
DarthSylar
And Joker was like, I'm gonna do that. It's the final Joker I will ever get.
01:58:14
Brev Work Computer
That's right.
01:58:15
Daryl
Yep. Yep.
01:58:17
Brev Work Computer
So then we get the, go ahead.
01:58:17
Daryl
And that... Oh, I was going to say, that takes us into the last issue, The Dark Knight Falls.
01:58:23
Brev Work Computer
Okay. I'm going to give my one negative thing here. The first couple of pages of this issue, and maybe it's the printing that I have, but they're kind of weak.
01:58:28
Daryl
Okay.
01:58:33
Brev Work Computer
That's like the, the colors off the art seems a little bit janky. Um,
01:58:38
DarthSylar
If I remember yet, oh yeah, I think I remember that, yeah.
01:58:41
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it gets, it gets better as the issue goes on, but there's like the first four or five pages. I'm kind of like, eh, it looks like it took a dip. Like this whole scene where Batman, got the, uh, he's like the SWAT team is on him.
01:58:54
Brev Work Computer
Cause he's now got to leave the tunnel, the the carnival, right? He's got to get out of here.
01:58:57
Daryl
Yeah.
01:58:58
DarthSylar
He does spin on the Joker's face, that's cool.
01:58:58
Brev Work Computer
Um,
01:59:01
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, that is really cool. um If you think that spit. ah Yeah, but I'm kidding. But there's this like explosion or something going on. And i don't know. just It just isn't quite getting there.
01:59:12
Brev Work Computer
But it's when is when Robin saves him, it starts to it starts the art starts to get a little tighter, a little bit better, a little bit back to form for Miller.
01:59:15
DarthSylar
Yeah.
01:59:20
Brev Work Computer
I mean, don't get me wrong. It's still better than a lot of artists I've read. But it is definitely a it feels like he was struggling to get started in my humble opinion.
01:59:28
DarthSylar
It's... I think Miller's art has been inconsistent.
01:59:37
Daryl
Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised.
01:59:38
DarthSylar
I'm the not-so-proud owner of his holy terror, and like that is not his best work.
01:59:44
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
01:59:45
Daryl
Well, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some trouble for him getting it off the ground. Because like I say, there was a delay between three and four. One, two, and three came out like clockwork.
01:59:56
DarthSylar
Oh, yeah, I think I did remember that, yeah.
01:59:56
Daryl
And there was a couple of months between three and four. And um a I have read another copy of, another version of the trade paperback than the one that I mentioned that has his, um his plot for the fourth issue in it.
02:00:17
Daryl
And the entire fight, he hasn't broken up into four acts. The entire final act is different.
02:00:23
Brev Work Computer
Really?
02:00:25
Daryl
Um, I mean, the, the major beats are the same, but it, it has a an ending where it, it doesn't end. The fight still ends in Crime Alley pretty much the same way.
02:00:38
DarthSylar
Oh.
02:00:40
Daryl
But then he is taken to a military base where he's he's held and the the general ah basically says, okay, we have you. you're You can keep working. you We're not going to kill you. You're going to work for us now, like Kent does.
02:00:59
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:01:00
Daryl
And you know they they have him strapped down you know naked to a hospital bed, and he manages to you know free an arm, pulls his IV out, and uses the needle on the IV to cut into his arm, and that's where he has the the pill that fakes his death.
02:01:20
DarthSylar
Ah.
02:01:20
Daryl
And he pulls the pill out of his arm and takes it, and then they think he's dead. And then we we we get kind of the ending that we saw, except at the end, he's sitting on this large...
02:01:34
Daryl
thrown basically in the Batcave with Carrie next to him as as Robin and the sons of the Batman like coming in to pay tribute or whatever.
02:01:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I like this one. I like the one they printed better. that That one feels like way too much meta commentary on the American military industrial complex. And like we are we already know based on what he what what Miller's, how his interpretation of Superman.
02:02:00
Brev Work Computer
we don't We don't need that much on the nose.
02:02:01
DarthSylar
this is already enough.
02:02:02
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:02:03
DarthSylar
And again, like i we already have this is enough politics and in comics.
02:02:03
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:02:07
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:02:08
DarthSylar
We don't need more.
02:02:10
Brev Work Computer
i Yeah, I totally agree. The way this ends is so much better. And I love you brought the Sons of Batman because throughout the like the third issue and then definitely the fourth issue, we see that all those mutants have...
02:02:14
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
02:02:21
DarthSylar
He starts a cultural revolution, basically.
02:02:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, all the mutants that that he freed from the mutant boss now work for him and they're doing the good deeds. And they look a little fascist, but they're doing the deeds to save to save Gotham from everybody else.
02:02:36
Brev Work Computer
And they just, you know, it just goes to show like the idea that the youth need a leader, right?
02:02:38
Daryl
Well, Ed, the...
02:02:40
Brev Work Computer
Someone to rise up with.
02:02:41
Daryl
And the the important thing is, too, to go along with that, that they need a leader, is they're going beyond the boundaries that Batman has always set for himself.
02:02:51
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
02:02:52
Daryl
You know, they're...
02:02:54
DarthSylar
They're inspired similar to like Carrie Kelly to take up it's a cultural revolution but has no head to the snake.
02:02:57
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:03:02
Daryl
But they're they're also doing things like, ah you know, the convenience store...
02:03:09
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:03:10
Daryl
guy who was being robbed after they stopped the robbers they're like okay well you should have fought back so we're cutting your fingers off and but before we dive before we dive in here I do want something that I want to touch on Breville laugh because he's like a haha i I knew that you were going to to dunk on a certain filmmaker and I'm not dunking on a certain filmmaker
02:03:20
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
02:03:23
DarthSylar
It's like
02:03:37
Brev Work Computer
but
02:03:38
Daryl
ah
02:03:38
Brev Work Computer
Here we go. if
02:03:40
Daryl
But one thing that has, over the years, yeah we've had kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of parts of this story. And one of them we kind of see throughout the past, the the fourth issue and the third issue, where yeah we have audiences calling for a more violent, Punisher-like Batman, and a lot of them cite Dark Knight Returns as proof that Batman should kill.
02:04:10
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:04:11
Daryl
But if we look at the the trajectory of the story, ah he first has a warrant put out on him in 3 when Gordon retires and Yindel comes in as the new commissioner.
02:04:25
Daryl
And she takes the podium and she reads the charges. And the charges are breaking and entering, a assault and battery, and creating a public menace. Then later, when they first get a glimpse of Carrie as Robin,
02:04:41
Daryl
she calls in to have child endangerment added to the charges. On the news, Lana Lang mentions specifically Batman hasn't killed anyone.
02:04:54
Daryl
It's only after the Joker has killed himself, and just like he said, they're not going to believe you didn't do it, that's when murder gets added to the charges.
02:04:57
DarthSylar
Yep.
02:05:06
Daryl
So i don't i don't care, Batman didn't kill. Batman's not a serial killer.
02:05:11
DarthSylar
Yep.
02:05:13
Daryl
Batman is not the Punisher. if i There are great Punisher stories out there. And if I want to read one, I'll read a Punisher story. I won't read a Batman story.
02:05:22
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:05:23
Daryl
Off of my soapbox.
02:05:23
Brev Work Computer
No. No, I get it.
02:05:24
Daryl
ah
02:05:26
Brev Work Computer
I get it. Yep.
02:05:28
DarthSylar
There's a fundamental difference. like If you want to read that type story, that's the type of story. But the story is like, it goes off, it comes off of like the like Zoro. Zoro, depending on the interpretation, obviously, doesn't kill.
02:05:46
Daryl
Speaking of Zorro...
02:05:46
DarthSylar
But he is vigilante who wears a mask, who is a wealthy upbrick.
02:05:52
DarthSylar
Frank Holozubiec-O'clock, and uses his symbol to strike fear into into the criminals, both high and low born.
02:06:00
Daryl
Speaking of Zorro, jumping back to the first issue really quick. ah Both of you have watched The West Wing, yes?
02:06:07
Brev Work Computer
Nope.
02:06:09
Daryl
Oh, okay. you You won't get this reference, Brev. But there's there's an issue of West Wing where ah President Bartlett is being, a it has he's having this crisis of conscience because he might have to send troops into basically a no-win scenario.
02:06:29
Brev Work Computer
Right. The Kobayashi Baru.
02:06:29
Daryl
and he goes but And he goes back to the residence and he turns on the TV and um the Laurel and Hardy movie with the toy soldiers is on.
02:06:30
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:06:41
DarthSylar
ah yeah
02:06:41
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:06:42
Daryl
and And it keeps cutting between the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up and the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up and the screen and Bartlett getting more worked up. There's a scene in the first issue where Bruce sits down to watch TV and the markups the Mark of Zorro is on, which that this is the this is the first time that Miller's the first one who specifically says the movie the Waynes went to see was the Mark of Zorro.
02:06:58
Brev Work Computer
he
02:06:59
DarthSylar
Oh yes, I know what you're going talk about.
02:07:12
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:07:13
Daryl
And it cuts between Bruce and he keeps changing through the channels to get away from the Mark of Zorro. And it's news story after news story after news story of crime and horror going on in Gotham.
02:07:31
Daryl
And... Obviously West Wing came long after, but that scene just made me think of
Gotham’s Resilience
02:07:39
DarthSylar
Yeah. Yeah.
02:07:39
Daryl
that scene with with Bartlett in the West Wing.
02:07:44
Brev Work Computer
It very well have been that the that the writers saw that read this as well. so
02:07:50
Daryl
ah Entirely possible, but you know it it was one of those things where bringing 40 more years of experiences and media...
02:08:03
Daryl
intake into me has like you said you know i'm the one that's changed over the 40 years and now i have that moment that makes this already cinematic sequence in the comic come to life a little more because i've seen something similar in movement
02:08:22
Brev Work Computer
yep yep it's craziness no no it's fine it's's that's totally good that's that's the problem with this story is it's it's like it's so dense you get so much out of this and
02:08:25
Daryl
sorry i jumped back three issues sorry
02:08:29
DarthSylar
Yeah,
02:08:35
DarthSylar
yeah. I think it's appropriate to say that us discussing it is no substitute.
02:08:43
Brev Work Computer
yeah no
02:08:43
DarthSylar
for like this I would recommend the two part animated movies that are pretty faithful to to it. But again, it's a most in Pixar adaptation of the graph ah the graphic novel story, so it's not the same, but it has similar beats.
02:09:03
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And then, so this issue continues with the, she, ran again, Robin manages to rescue Batman. um
02:09:12
Daryl
Yeah.
02:09:13
Brev Work Computer
And they get him back home and, you know, we get the whole, you know, the heart, you know, the, the, the little meter going on. And like, that's when the sons of Batman are out there and you definitely barely touched on that. And they got a whole bunch of, and you got Superman flying into action, trying to stop a, a nuclear bomb or missile.
02:09:31
Brev Work Computer
And he kind of does, but,
02:09:33
DarthSylar
Oh, yeah, the Cold War is going on.
02:09:34
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, exactly. Something else is happening outside of Gotham. And it and the the bomb goes off and it fucks up Supes pretty badly.
02:09:38
Daryl
yeah
02:09:42
Brev Work Computer
Wrecked.
02:09:42
DarthSylar
ah He gets wrecked by that. i was I'll say this, like I remember reading that, seeing the image of Superman, like and I'm like, oh snap!
02:09:46
Daryl
Yep.
02:09:55
DarthSylar
like Even as a kid, i was like, is Superman dead?
02:09:59
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's pretty wrecked.
02:10:00
Daryl
ah
02:10:01
Brev Work Computer
But what happens is that that I guess that EMP goes over all the the East Coast, including Gotham, and everybody's in shut into like all they lose all their electricity.
02:10:11
Brev Work Computer
And so then here comes Batman on the horseback and to save the day, which is yes.
02:10:15
DarthSylar
ah he's he's He's a dark knight on horseback.
02:10:19
Brev Work Computer
And like Zorro, he's on a black horse. Yeah, I mean, like, this is this is great. This is this is
02:10:24
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:10:24
Daryl
Yep. He
02:10:25
DarthSylar
This is iconic as heck.
02:10:27
Brev Work Computer
Oh, yeah. And Miller just nailed it. It's so good.
02:10:29
DarthSylar
It's like...
02:10:30
Brev Work Computer
And they're there to stop the crime that's going on.
02:10:30
DarthSylar
the the the
02:10:30
Daryl
he did
02:10:33
DarthSylar
But no, no, the the best part is they to continue on what you were saying, Daryl, about like how was like, this is the moment where people say like, oh, this is when violent Batman. He goes up to the sons of Batman who are ready to violently retake the city in their name.
02:10:47
DarthSylar
And he goes up to them, takes one of the guns, is like breaks it and says, these are the weapons. These are clumsy, ineffective weapons. I'll teach you how to use your minds and your fists.
02:11:00
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
02:11:02
Daryl
yeah These are the weapons of the enemy.
02:11:04
Brev Work Computer
he
02:11:05
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:11:05
Brev Work Computer
m
02:11:06
DarthSylar
It's like Batman destroys a gun and is like, no, no one's going to kill anyone right now. We are the law.
02:11:15
Brev Work Computer
That's right. And we're going to save everybody that we can. and We're going stop the people that are committing the crimes. I love that. I love that. These are the weapons of the enemy. I mean, like how many times have we heard that?
02:11:28
Brev Work Computer
just recently the last few years, like you cannot use the same weapons your enemies employ because then you become no better than them.
02:11:30
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:11:34
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
02:11:35
DarthSylar
Yes, and it's like Batman would say, said that is like, again, like the the Sons of Batman were are well-intentioned extremists, but he's like cooling them down and saying, we need to function better than this.
02:11:36
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
Green Arrow and Revolution
02:11:51
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:11:52
DarthSylar
If we're going to make, we're going to survive, this is as he's basically pulling together society at that moment.
02:11:53
Daryl
Yeah, pull it.
02:12:02
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:12:03
Daryl
Yep.
02:12:03
Brev Work Computer
And then we get, we get it.
02:12:03
Daryl
And we we also have you know ah shades of of foreshadowing with a a single plane knocked out by the EMP hits the Gotham Towers.
02:12:16
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
02:12:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:12:19
Daryl
and
02:12:19
DarthSylar
Force-hattering is a literary device.
02:12:21
Brev Work Computer
which
02:12:22
Daryl
Hang on, Nick. I do have the clip loaded up. Hang on.
02:12:30
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, and it's weirdly ends up being a sad and historical moment that say foreshadows that we didn't even know was going to happen. And then we...
02:12:39
Daryl
Yep.
02:12:39
DarthSylar
But in this case, similar to that. It is a moment where where we get to see community come together in the moments of tragedy. This is a
02:12:48
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:12:48
DarthSylar
where Gordon helps rally the people, Batman rallies the Sons of Batman.
02:12:59
DarthSylar
It's them working on the ground level and making making things work in the lack of control they have.
02:13:08
Brev Work Computer
Yep. They're the heroes of Gotham.
02:13:09
Daryl
Yep.
02:13:11
Brev Work Computer
Saving saving the city from itself.
02:13:11
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:13:14
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. the two the The two men that are standing on that wall to protect everybody else.
02:13:14
Daryl
Yep.
02:13:18
DarthSylar
And even Lynn hats like she's has the cops all holed up and got GCPD. And it's like, she recognizes that. No, this is, they have it.
02:13:30
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:13:32
Daryl
Yep. and And then comes the big moment.
02:13:36
Brev Work Computer
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, which one's your big moment? Because there's several at this end. What do you...
02:13:40
DarthSylar
Well, after Superman reinflates like one of those dinosaurs you put in water.
02:13:41
Daryl
Well, yeah, there are.
02:13:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:13:47
Daryl
yeah i mean, just...
02:13:49
Brev Work Computer
Are you talking about
Final Showdown of Ideals
02:13:50
Brev Work Computer
the next hero that we have that joins the melee? Yeah. Yeah.
02:13:54
Daryl
Oh, there's that too. Yeah, they the Green Arrow coming in and ah just being every bit the you know hippie radical that he became after
02:13:56
Brev Work Computer
yeah
02:13:59
Brev Work Computer
system
02:14:10
Daryl
ah after hard traveling heroes.
02:14:10
DarthSylar
um here from his yeah and it's like like he is he just stepped right out of those books it's clear that Miller was a fan of those because he just stepped right out of those pages that and this is a speech he would be giving the howl right now
02:14:12
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:14:29
Brev Work Computer
yep
02:14:29
Daryl
Yes. and heat
02:14:30
Brev Work Computer
And it is, it is, and and it's Superman that took Oliver's arm, right?
02:14:34
DarthSylar
yeah the implication is
02:14:35
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:14:35
Daryl
Yeah, that that it that is the heavy, heavy implication.
02:14:35
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
02:14:39
Daryl
you Because cause Oliver, yep.
02:14:39
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's still it still hurts when it's cold. Yeah.
02:14:43
Daryl
says i've i've Yeah, I can't remember exactly what he says. Something about, you know, I, yeah.
02:14:48
DarthSylar
He wants to take a shot one last shot at the schoolboy.
02:14:51
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I want a small piece of him.
02:14:52
Daryl
Yeah.
02:14:53
Brev Work Computer
A small piece will do for old time's sake, you know. And he looks at his arm. It still hurts when it's cold.
02:14:59
Daryl
Yep.
02:15:01
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:15:02
Daryl
Yep.
02:15:02
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And that's what's great. He even, he kind of chastises Bruce for like not going far enough. It's like, Oh God.
02:15:08
Daryl
Yeah.
02:15:09
Brev Work Computer
Okay. and Then we get out. Okay. Ollie. What's good. Wow. All right. Here we go.
02:15:14
DarthSylar
Again, that's that's that it's the speech he'd be given that he gave Hell every other issue.
02:15:20
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
02:15:21
DarthSylar
Even hard-traveling heroes is like...
02:15:21
Daryl
because
02:15:22
Brev Work Computer
You're not doing enough. mean,
02:15:24
Daryl
ah Use your magic ring and fix everything.
02:15:28
Brev Work Computer
That's right. And then and then and then then Superman asks the the the the the question of the day, where? um Like, where are we doing this? You and me, it's on.
02:15:40
Brev Work Computer
So.
02:15:40
Daryl
And there's only one place that that Batman would do it.
02:15:43
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
02:15:44
Daryl
Crime Alley.
02:15:45
Brev Work Computer
Yep. And then they have a great battle. I love this fight. I like the one years later that in Hush, but I like this one better.
02:15:50
DarthSylar
It's...
02:15:50
Daryl
Oh, yeah.
02:15:53
DarthSylar
Oh, this... Huss is a different...
02:15:56
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it's completely different.
02:15:57
DarthSylar
It's a whole different... Because this is truly a fight of ideals. Not fight of like, oh, I have to fight you. Or I'm mind-controlled and fight you.
02:16:09
Brev Work Computer
by By Poison Ivy. Yeah, I know. i just Jim Lee is a gorgeous artist and it's hard to deny.
02:16:12
DarthSylar
Oh, it's art, but like...
02:16:13
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:16:14
DarthSylar
But it's like, this is truly... and This is sort of... There's a... I love this fight. I hate how no one understands this fight.
02:16:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:16:24
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
02:16:25
DarthSylar
No one gets it.
02:16:27
Brev Work Computer
this this is this is This is as an adult going back and rewatching a New Hope or Star Wars and realizing just how important that fight is.
02:16:38
Brev Work Computer
Or even Empire in Jedi.
02:16:38
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:16:39
Brev Work Computer
Like every one of those lightsaber duels means something. And then you get Yoda jumping around all over the screen and, uh, with Dooku and you're like, okay. i was That was, that cute.
02:16:51
Brev Work Computer
Or, um, you know, whatever happens later. And it's like, there's, there's certain weight that happens in those original, uh, lightsaber battle.
02:17:01
DarthSylar
Like, every word, every blow is saying more than more than just a puns.
02:17:02
Brev Work Computer
Just like this. There's there. Like you said.
02:17:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, exactly.
02:17:11
Brev Work Computer
Exactly.
02:17:12
DarthSylar
This is more than just Batman fighting Superman.
02:17:17
Brev Work Computer
the
02:17:18
DarthSylar
This is the ideals of Batman, a sort of free, radical vigilante against propped-up government student.
02:17:18
Daryl
and
02:17:29
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:17:30
Daryl
Well, Ed, this is also a paradigm shift for the characters because for decades at this point, they have almost exclusively been portrayed as best buddies. Yeah.
02:17:45
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:17:46
DarthSylar
Best friends.
02:17:46
Daryl
and And I have no doubt, I have no doubt, again, long shadow, that when Burns' Man of Steel came out later in the same year, that the friction between the two of them here is what led to the decision that stayed in place for a good 20 years after this of
02:17:49
DarthSylar
World's finest.
02:18:13
Daryl
No, they're not best Why would these two people be best friends?
02:18:19
Daryl
And i I'm glad that we've got the super buddies back.
02:18:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:18:24
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:18:25
Daryl
But there was ah there's also a lot to have been mined from that no, it doesn't make sense for them to be best friends.
02:18:31
DarthSylar
Oh yeah. There is a good storytelling idea from ah conflicted Batman and Superman.
02:18:34
Daryl
But...
02:18:41
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah.
02:18:42
DarthSylar
When the objective of the story is Batman against Superman, or maybe condensing that into a more snappy snappy snappy letter, like v ah that that then you lose
02:18:59
Daryl
ah
02:19:00
DarthSylar
the and you lose the the important implication of that
02:19:05
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:19:07
Daryl
See, Nick's the one who threw shade through specific shade.
02:19:12
Brev Work Computer
Oh, BVS. Yeah.
02:19:14
Daryl
Yeah, that's
02:19:14
Brev Work Computer
Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I, yeah, it's, I, I enjoyed it, but I didn't think too much about it.
02:19:23
DarthSylar
When you boil it down to that, that's when you lose like the implications of like this story of this event.
02:19:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:19:29
DarthSylar
like This is the Batman v Superman, but it's not just Batman and Superman.
02:19:30
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:19:36
DarthSylar
It's a battle of ideals, and it's not won by it Again, like it's like...
02:19:43
Daryl
It's not won by Batman beating the crap out of Superman. It's won by Batman faking his own death.
02:19:51
DarthSylar
Exactly.
02:19:52
Brev Work Computer
it's one it's It's essentially won by by Clark committing what he believes is murder at the time.
02:19:52
DarthSylar
for Because it's...
02:19:58
Brev Work Computer
Look how far you have fallen, Clark.
02:19:58
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:20:00
Brev Work Computer
You are willing to kill your friend.
02:20:04
DarthSylar
and Again, like the adult this but this this story, sorry despite recontextualizing, as you said, what Batman...
02:20:04
Daryl
Yep.
02:20:04
Brev Work Computer
Wolf.
02:20:11
DarthSylar
the the convert the how camaraderie they have. This one is built on the idea that they were friends and this is a tragedy.
02:20:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:20:21
DarthSylar
It's it's almost like a Greek tragedy. that
02:20:24
Brev Work Computer
I don't think it's almost like one. I think it is. It's operatic.
02:20:26
Daryl
Yeah.
02:20:26
Brev Work Computer
You know, it's like bigger than life.
02:20:27
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:20:28
Brev Work Computer
It's like you could see this on stage before you and like and like this thing would be I mean, this would be awesome. Right. And like, you're right, Nick. It's it's it's the.
02:20:40
Brev Work Computer
the pro again Going back to movies trying to cram too much shit in it and not really understanding what they're trying to do at the time, BVS is another one. We've got four different story, famous story arcs going on at the same time and all these different things we want to do. And it's like, I had a fun time as long as I don't think too deeply about it. Because if I do, then I see how all of the missteps along the way, we took like flavors of things and tried to remake our own thing without just, what if we just made our own story?
02:21:10
Brev Work Computer
Let's just make our own story about these two instead of trying to rip off all these other ones.
02:21:15
DarthSylar
Again, by stripping elements to get to quote-unquote iconic points without being their stories, you rob them of their weight, their impact.
02:21:25
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. you you Yes. Yes. 100%. Yeah.
02:21:28
Daryl
Yeah.
02:21:29
DarthSylar
like I'll admit, like there's some there's there's some popcorn fun if you get through most of BVS to the ending point. There's some popcorn fun and cool moments, and the the this the costuming looks amazing.
02:21:45
DarthSylar
seeing the impacts hit, but there's like but it has it doesn't it doesn' it hit like this. is is it like
02:21:52
Brev Work Computer
No.
02:21:53
DarthSylar
when it's When every moment is like, and Superman thinking he killed his best friend on behalf of the government that basically sort of has shackled him to <unk> tim to his quote-unquote ideals.
02:22:09
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm.
02:22:11
DarthSylar
it's it's It's tragic.
02:22:11
Daryl
And yeah.
02:22:13
DarthSylar
It's it's it's heartbreaking.
02:22:15
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And it's more powerful. It hits harder than you're you.
02:22:18
Daryl
yeah
02:22:19
DarthSylar
And it's not Batman beating him.
02:22:20
Brev Work Computer
Maybe maybe we both are are human beings, too, which is which is which is what the intent of the Martha moment is. I'm I'm I'm you are a person. I'm a person. We were both raised by people.
02:22:31
Brev Work Computer
We're both people, even if we're not on the you're not from the planet.
02:22:33
DarthSylar
But it fits more when when Bruce says, like, Clark, given enough time, I could have killed you right now.
02:22:34
Brev Work Computer
But.
02:22:42
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:22:42
DarthSylar
But I didn't. Because I don't want to.
02:22:45
Brev Work Computer
Exactly.
02:22:47
DarthSylar
And it's like, but you are here willing to kill me.
02:22:51
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:22:52
DarthSylar
and it's like, that's that's the moment. It's like, Batman wins not by beating Superman, but by making Superman realize how far he's fallen.
02:23:04
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:23:05
Brev Work Computer
it's the It's the Jedi moment all over again.
02:23:05
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
02:23:07
Brev Work Computer
I hate to bring it back to Star Wars, but it's the importance of Luke throwing away his lightsaber at the end of Jedi, spoiler alert, and saying, no, I'm a Jedi like my father before me. It's him sacrificing himself, taking a risk that his dad will save him.
02:23:21
Brev Work Computer
And still remember being a kid and not understanding what was going on, and my mom whispered, that my mom was reading to me in the theater. It was like, he's gonna he's basically that he's hoping his dad will save him.
02:23:34
Brev Work Computer
And I was like, what? And then Vader picks up Palpatine or the emperor at the time and throws him in the pit. And I was like, oh my God.
02:23:39
DarthSylar
Oh, your mom did the same thing with me.
02:23:39
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
02:23:40
Brev Work Computer
Like, yeah.
02:23:43
DarthSylar
ah My mom did the same thing with me when we watched it. hes like
02:23:46
Brev Work Computer
My mom might've done the same thing with you too, Nick. I don't know.
02:23:49
DarthSylar
I don't know your mom.
02:23:50
Brev Work Computer
if
02:23:51
DarthSylar
and um ah But my mom watched all the Star Wars with me. is like I gasped twin win when Luke threw away.
02:23:55
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm.
02:23:58
DarthSylar
How's he going to defeat the Emperor? it's like i also are like no no he's He's already beaten him. He doesn't have to fight.
02:24:04
Brev Work Computer
That's right.
02:24:05
DarthSylar
it's like What?
02:24:07
Brev Work Computer
That's why i mean, a lot of people give the last Jedi shit and I'm like, what are you talking about? That's a great moment.
02:24:11
DarthSylar
that was that was the most saiddi That was the most Jedi thing ever.
02:24:11
Daryl
Yeah.
02:24:16
Brev Work Computer
Exactly.
02:24:16
Daryl
Yeah. Yeah, he... yes you You will get no arguments about Last Jedi from me.
02:24:24
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, I think it's great.
02:24:26
DarthSylar
I think it's great.
02:24:26
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:24:26
Daryl
do too.
02:24:27
DarthSylar
I'll admit it has flaws, but so does every movie.
02:24:30
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. There's some parts that work better than others, but I think it's great.
02:24:31
Daryl
Yep.
02:24:34
Brev Work Computer
oh yeah There you go.
02:24:34
DarthSylar
when you when you But ah that's a whole different discussion and that's if we want this and that's if we want this podcast to be cancelled. So meet us on May the 4th when we talk The Last Jedi and the last episode of this podcast.
02:24:45
Daryl
yeah
02:24:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And so the the the it kind of starts wrapping up as the fight goes on and then and then Bruce's heart gives out, right?
02:24:56
DarthSylar
And again, it's Clark realizes it's too late that it's like he thinks he killed him.
02:24:57
Daryl
Yeah.
02:25:04
DarthSylar
And it's like, it's sad. It's like.
02:25:08
Brev Work Computer
and then and Yeah.
02:25:08
Daryl
Yeah, I i remember you know reading it the first time. I was like, holy crap. Batman just died.
02:25:18
Brev Work Computer
I read comics from the start to the finish. I don't flip through. I present them like a movie. I know some people like to flip through. No, no, no. If I'm going to read it, I start at the beginning and I read all the way to the end without skipping ahead.
02:25:27
DarthSylar
don't know.
02:25:32
DarthSylar
you you gotta take in the You gotta take in the image. it's ah it's and They didn't just draw that for no reason.
02:25:35
Brev Work Computer
Exactly.
02:25:39
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. It's a story. Tell me a story. And then poor Alfred finally dies. Right?
02:25:44
Daryl
ah hey
02:25:45
Brev Work Computer
Collapses. And I love this line from Superman.
02:25:46
Daryl
After destroying the cave and the mansion.
02:25:49
Brev Work Computer
As he should. He knew his part. And then I love that Superman looks at the other people and and just holding Bruce in his arms says, don't touch him. And I just love that.
02:25:59
DarthSylar
It's like he... It's the Clark that's, it again, that part of the fight was breaking down that sort of veneer of the American way that he's been portrayed in.
02:26:13
DarthSylar
It's like the armor's off, like similar to Batman's armor is broken in in this in the fight. It's like he's he's laid bare.
02:26:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:26:22
DarthSylar
it It's Clark. It's the Superman holding his friend.
02:26:28
DarthSylar
Again, like as I said, it's operatic.
02:26:29
Brev Work Computer
it it
02:26:30
DarthSylar
It's like it's a Greek tragedy.
02:26:32
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. And I love the fact that like, as this story unfolds and you begin to think about it, you think about like, like Superman is just sort of this idealized thing, what everybody should be.
02:26:43
Brev Work Computer
But Batman is a thing that you actually can be. How do you help your neighbors?
02:26:47
Daryl
Mm-hmm.
02:26:48
Brev Work Computer
How do you help your neighborhood?
02:26:48
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:26:49
Brev Work Computer
Which is why Batman works best in Gotham, right? When he goes on space adventures and everything like that. sure sure It's like, it's like, it's like Spider-Man outside of New York. Sure. That's fun. But New York is his home.
02:27:00
Brev Work Computer
Daredevil outside of hell's kitchen. Let's stay in hell's kitchen. This is probably best. It's because it's the idea that I am doing what I can to help my community, to help the people that are around me, to keep them safe, to keep law and order there.
02:27:15
Brev Work Computer
Where Superman's just more of this idealized, like super powerful God. And he's trying to help everybody too. Yeah. But I mean, like it's total power fantasy, right?
02:27:21
DarthSylar
could help He can help a lot more, and he can do a lot more, but it's more on a macro scale.
02:27:29
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, exactly.
02:27:31
DarthSylar
Batman is a micro scale. Just as strong, but different scales.
02:27:37
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:27:40
Daryl
Yep. And then we we get the the kicker at the end.
02:27:45
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, which was great.
02:27:46
DarthSylar
The funeral.
02:27:46
Daryl
we we get We get the funeral.
02:27:48
DarthSylar
And the panels... We've mentioned the panels before, but this is probably when it becomes the most cinematic.
02:27:56
Brev Work Computer
yeah yeah
02:27:58
Daryl
you have Selena ready to go bare knuckle, toe to toe against Superman.
02:28:03
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:28:05
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. think And Gordon's like, stop.
02:28:07
DarthSylar
there ah like
02:28:08
Brev Work Computer
It's not here. Not here. Right.
02:28:10
DarthSylar
like
02:28:10
Daryl
Yeah.
02:28:10
DarthSylar
cause guess And this this is a Selena who's definitely not in the same shape as Batman, able to to tangle.
02:28:16
Brev Work Computer
No.
02:28:17
Daryl
New.
02:28:20
Daryl
But she's...
02:28:20
DarthSylar
But she's still feisty.
02:28:23
DarthSylar
And
02:28:23
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. This is, this is Selena Kyle before Ozempic.
02:28:24
Daryl
Yep.
02:28:27
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:28:29
Daryl
And then we start to get some more Batman narration.
02:28:37
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:28:37
Daryl
that he didn't time things quite right. And then we get that heart monitor again.
02:28:44
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:28:44
DarthSylar
it's just like...
02:28:47
Daryl
And...
02:28:47
DarthSylar
And we then we get a thought of Superman and we get mostly his ears sort like tricking up.
02:28:53
Brev Work Computer
Yep. And he sees Carrie.
02:28:54
Daryl
And that then he he sees Carrie heavily disguised and just looks at her and winks.
02:28:55
Brev Work Computer
Kelly. Yeah. Carrie. Oh, yeah. Totally.
02:29:04
Brev Work Computer
Yep. which tells the audience that Clark has grown throughout this, that Clark at the beginning of this story would have probably opened up the casket and said, you know, you're, I know you're still alive.
02:29:10
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:29:17
Brev Work Computer
We're going to jail or prison, but Clark now realizes.
02:29:19
Daryl
Yep, you're coming with me.
02:29:19
DarthSylar
yeah i got i go to i have i take I'm taking you to President Reagan himself so that he can suck up your soul because he's a zombie.
02:29:24
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
02:29:27
Brev Work Computer
That's right. But, but now, but now this Clark is like, nah, I'm going to pretend I didn't hear anything.
02:29:35
Daryl
Yep, um I'm going to go on.
02:29:36
DarthSylar
again it's it's and Again, it's subtle.
02:29:36
Daryl
You do you.
02:29:37
DarthSylar
it's like if you If you know Superman, you know that he has super hearing, so he's hearing that. And it's like,
02:29:46
DarthSylar
is ah that Just a quick look. is just All you need to know is like that's good. that That's solid.
02:29:51
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, it shows that Miller has a little bit of respect for Clark.
02:29:52
Daryl
And that we...
02:29:56
Brev Work Computer
Like he doesn't completely hate Superman.
02:29:56
Daryl
Yeah.
02:29:58
Brev Work Computer
He doesn't vilify him in this moment that he could, but instead he's like, you know what, I'm going to honor.
02:29:59
DarthSylar
In fact, he vilified him. It's sort of Superman went through the Redemption arc.
02:30:08
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, absolutely. He did. Yes.
02:30:10
Daryl
Yeah.
02:30:10
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Had to have it beaten into him.
02:30:12
Daryl
Yeah.
02:30:12
Brev Work Computer
But yeah, he had to do the unthinkable, which was kill his friend.
02:30:14
DarthSylar
Sometimes that
02:30:17
Brev Work Computer
He had to believe he killed his friend, which would have just absolutely eviscerated Clark.
02:30:17
DarthSylar
yeah two two
02:30:21
Brev Work Computer
That he.
02:30:21
DarthSylar
To learn that lesson. To to to to accept that lesson and sort of and also to allow Batman to continue what he's doing.
02:30:24
Brev Work Computer
hmm.
02:30:29
DarthSylar
Batman had to die.
02:30:29
Brev Work Computer
Mm hmm. Exactly.
02:30:33
Daryl
Yep. And we then we close with Bruce, what Batman, whichever you want to consider him
02:30:40
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
Enduring Impact of The Dark Knight Returns
02:30:41
Daryl
in civilian clothes with Robin and the sons of Batman in another part of the cave planning for the future.
02:30:41
DarthSylar
Bruce Mann, Man Wayne...
02:30:42
Brev Work Computer
Bruce B.
02:30:51
Daryl
And we get a we get a mirror of a refrain that's been going through the whole series.
02:30:57
DarthSylar
Yes.
02:30:58
Daryl
That when he's racing the car and this would be a good death, and but not good enough.
02:31:05
DarthSylar
yes
02:31:07
Daryl
And later, you know this would be a stupid death. And now with all of these people around him and a plan for the future, this will be a good life.
02:31:22
Daryl
And... Thus ends one of the most influential comics ever.
02:31:31
DarthSylar
Period.
02:31:31
Brev Work Computer
Yep. Period. End of discussion. as I said at the beginning, wizard put it number three.
02:31:35
DarthSylar
I read...
02:31:36
Brev Work Computer
As much as I love mouse, I think mouse is fantastic. I don't read mouse very, i don't read mouse very often.
02:31:40
DarthSylar
Oh, Mouse is fantastic. But... Well, you shouldn't.
02:31:43
Daryl
yeah
02:31:44
DarthSylar
Honestly, like, twice is enough for me, and, like, I had to read...
02:31:47
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yeah.
02:31:48
DarthSylar
I had i read it once because I wanted to read it and again for high school. So it's like... Yeah! Not a fun read.
02:31:55
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. No.
02:31:57
DarthSylar
Good book. Not fun
02:31:58
Brev Work Computer
And I, and and I love Watchmen. Uh, but I think I, the dark night returns is easier to get through and it's also shorter.
02:32:06
DarthSylar
Yeah, it's true, but it's also, it's there's no denying it is truly just one of those works in comic book fiction that carries a long standard, that it has influenced its iconography, and for better for worse, it's it has created a large amount of like discourse and discussion.
02:32:08
Brev Work Computer
Um,
02:32:09
Daryl
Yep.
02:32:35
Brev Work Computer
It will never not be in print.
02:32:38
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:32:38
Daryl
No.
02:32:39
Brev Work Computer
It's like the dark side of the moon.
02:32:39
Daryl
it, hit
02:32:40
Brev Work Computer
the the The dark side of the moon will always be in print as will the Dark Knight Return.
02:32:41
DarthSylar
and know ah never not be it will never not be referenced, almost, discussed, and often misinterpreted.
02:32:44
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. Yes, that's true.
02:32:52
Brev Work Computer
yep yes that's true
02:32:53
Daryl
Yep, it has been a touchstone for the Batman books for 40 years. um I recently saw an interview with Matt Fraction, who's currently writing the newly rere re-launched Batman title, that...
02:33:10
Brev Work Computer
Yep.
02:33:11
Daryl
ah said that he saw Frank Miller at a convention recently and he's like, I i totally stole the TV screens doing some of the exposition from Dark Knight.
02:33:24
Daryl
And Miller's like, it's yours. Do it. Go, go.
02:33:28
Brev Work Computer
Yep. yep i you know, I am enjoying that.
02:33:29
DarthSylar
Again, like, it...
02:33:31
Brev Work Computer
I, I have enjoyed the fraction run so far.
02:33:33
DarthSylar
Frexton has been good.
02:33:35
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, um and it has been good.
02:33:36
Daryl
Yeah.
02:33:37
Brev Work Computer
And I, as we, as we talked about before, either I can't remember before on the show, I've really liked absolute Batman, which definitely takes lessons from this book.
02:33:44
DarthSylar
Oh, Absolute...
02:33:47
Daryl
Oh, it absolutely does.
02:33:47
DarthSylar
Absolute...
02:33:48
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:33:49
DarthSylar
Absolute Batman's currently, like, my favorite book currently right now.
02:33:53
Brev Work Computer
That's a great one. And absolute wonder woman we talked about is also a huge, just fantastic.
02:33:56
DarthSylar
Yep. Absolute Wonder Woman is, like... I think it's the best Wonder Woman we've had in, like, a decade.
02:34:04
Brev Work Computer
I couldn't tell you, but this has been great.
02:34:04
Daryl
yeahp and
02:34:07
Brev Work Computer
Um, cause she's not really a character I read a lot of.
02:34:08
DarthSylar
I don't...
02:34:09
Brev Work Computer
So.
02:34:10
DarthSylar
Again, that I haven't... it I... There's... Honestly, I can't even remember the last co good runs he's had. not Not to say that it's this good, whereas I love everything they're doing.
02:34:25
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
02:34:26
Daryl
um i I might be biased, but I would say Perez.
02:34:30
Brev Work Computer
Well, yeah you are you are a Paris slut.
02:34:30
DarthSylar
is good, Paris is good.
02:34:32
Brev Work Computer
yeah We know that. you were to
02:34:33
Daryl
I am. I am.
02:34:34
Brev Work Computer
yeah
02:34:35
Daryl
I really am.
02:34:35
Brev Work Computer
It's hard to not be. It's hard to not be, though. The man who could draw anything. It's sick. um But yeah.
02:34:41
Daryl
and And I also think that it it's probably fair to say that Carrie Kelly will return in Avengers Doomsday. Yeah.
02:34:51
Brev Work Computer
specific Love it.
02:34:57
Daryl
But no, it it seriously does have... heaven It's still referenced today.
02:35:02
DarthSylar
It holds up and it'll be referenced going forward and...
02:35:10
Brev Work Computer
It feels as fresh today as it did when it came out, even if it's set in 1986.
02:35:14
Daryl
It does.
02:35:14
DarthSylar
It has a...
02:35:14
Daryl
There are some things that
02:35:15
Brev Work Computer
Sure. Yes. Yep.
02:35:16
DarthSylar
even with Even with the very much it is dated by its but it's references for the time, but it has timeless themes.
02:35:28
Brev Work Computer
yes
02:35:28
Daryl
it Yeah, it's, i as I was reading it again this time, every time the newscasts were on, I was like, oh yeah, these are newscasts that I saw last night on the evening news.
02:35:41
DarthSylar
Hang
02:35:42
Brev Work Computer
What's old is new again.
02:35:42
DarthSylar
Hang It's again, like a lot of people say, like oh, you should try and set it set your story to be timeless. it's like Timelessness isn't it isn't a time period. it is a it is a think It's theming.
02:35:58
Brev Work Computer
Correct.
02:35:59
DarthSylar
History doesn't necessarily repeat, but it does rhyme.
02:35:59
Daryl
yeah
02:36:03
Brev Work Computer
It's like poetry. It rhymes. okay it's I don't know why I didn't think you wouldn't you wouldn't have that. So, yeah.
02:36:12
Daryl
that We use it so much on Clone Watch.
02:36:15
Brev Work Computer
I bet you do. Yeah. Well, gentlemen, this has been a lot of fun, but it has been oh two almost almost go we're going on with three Yeah.
02:36:22
Daryl
Two and a half hours. yeah i and didn't expect...
02:36:24
DarthSylar
I think this is they're not our longest, but definitely a strong one.
02:36:27
Brev Work Computer
yes
02:36:28
Daryl
I did not expect to keep you up this late, Brev. So thank you for for sticking with us.
02:36:31
Brev Work Computer
you know
02:36:32
DarthSylar
Thank you very much.
02:36:33
Daryl
um Before we go, where can everyone find you and your illustrious co-hosts?
02:36:39
Brev Work Computer
Absolutely. Thank you, Daryl. Yes, I am one of the the three headed monsters of hosts on the Movie Defenders. And you can find us at themoviedefenders at libsyn.com where you'll find all 200 and 20 ish episodes where we review movies from a positive point of view. And we have a blast. Both these fine gentlemen and Stephanie, ah the wife of Daryl, are director tiers. So they come on once a year at least and talk about movies, although we are going to get a special episode. Daryl, we're going it happen for kids in the whole brain candy.
02:37:14
Daryl
Yes, we must.
02:37:15
Brev Work Computer
um We must. going need to do that this year.
02:37:17
Daryl
i Even if it's backlot tour, I don't care. We got to do brain candy.
02:37:19
Brev Work Computer
Yeah. You, me, Tyler, my brother, uh, and Doug are the people that I know the most that love that movie the most. So we got to do that. Um, and so, yeah, you can find us there. We're on Spotify, uh, as the movie defenders and also, on wherever you can get, uh, Apple, Apple ah podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts of choice. And, um,
02:37:42
Brev Work Computer
dooo do dod do We also or we have a discord. You can find that link in the show notes for any episode you download. And also we're pretty prolific on Facebook. um So you can find us there, the movie defenders and then slash discussion group where we talk about all sorts of stuff. So come join us there.
02:38:00
Daryl
Yep, it's it's an awful lot of fun. And we we try to, you with our with our own brand ah of snark and and silliness, follow that same, you let's focus on the stuff that we like here on on Casual Nerdity.
02:38:13
Brev Work Computer
Mm-hmm. Oh.
02:38:14
Daryl
And it it is you know very much so inspired by by the movie defenders in that respect.
02:38:22
DarthSylar
one If we wanted to raise about things we didn't didn't like, we would have been talking about Batman v Superman.
02:38:29
Daryl
so if Well, and and it would also require us to sit in front of walls of Funko Pops and or in the front seat of a pickup truck.
02:38:37
DarthSylar
Or inside of a trap.
02:38:42
Daryl
ah
02:38:43
Brev Work Computer
I'm not getting that reference, but I'm tired.
02:38:44
Daryl
But,
02:38:45
Brev Work Computer
What was it? Where were we referencing?
02:38:47
Daryl
oh, just you so many of the of the rage baiters have walls of Funko Pops behind them. Yeah.
02:38:53
Brev Work Computer
Ah, got it. I have one in front of me.
02:38:54
DarthSylar
or in their pickup trucks.
02:38:56
Brev Work Computer
yeah Yes, i you know, I have, I am guilty of of giving too much of my algorithm to a few of those guys. And I've had moments where I'll give you all quick one. I know we got to get going, but ah the recent the recent Chip Zdarsky Captain America run,
02:39:16
Brev Work Computer
I thought it looked kind of interesting, but I was listening to these guys and got too far into their their their brainwashing techniques. And they were like, oh, there is trash it's trash. It's This is awful. duda-da done And I was like, okay, that's disappointing.
02:39:28
Brev Work Computer
And then hey got got they about four or five issues in. And I was looking. i was like, I think it actually looks kind of cool. And then I read the first issue on Marvel United or Unlimited. And then I read all the way through issue four. And I was like, fuck.
02:39:43
Brev Work Computer
I missed the ball on this one. This is great. And so then I went and bought every issue.
02:39:46
DarthSylar
and sometimes so Sometimes you gotta like, again like it this is both for good and for ill.
02:39:48
Brev Work Computer
What's right?
02:39:54
DarthSylar
There are plenty of ways to get caught up in like what the discourse is when honestly, sometimes you just gotta gamble and like take it take a read and see what hits.
02:40:05
DarthSylar
like You can't really trust, there's no such thing as unbiased criticism sometimes.
02:40:06
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:40:11
Brev Work Computer
Yeah, no, you're, you're absolutely right.
02:40:12
Daryl
Yep.
02:40:13
Brev Work Computer
In fact, I got to the point where these guys do a weekly sort of wi's what's, what's, uh, you know, kind of recap what the best issues of the week from yeah independent publishers, Marvel and DC.
02:40:23
Brev Work Computer
And it's got to the point after a couple months listening to them, I'm like, you guys just talk about the same issues that same, same comic books every time, every same same runs. And it's like, you never branch out to anything different. That means that this show has now become boring because I can predict every issue you're going like and which ones you're not.
02:40:37
DarthSylar
Yeah.
02:40:40
Brev Work Computer
So, I'm kind of done. So the rage baiting is what it is. So yeah, I'd much rather spend two and a half, three hours talking about something that love and I hope it inspires somebody else to read it or watch it, listen to it, whatever.
02:40:51
DarthSylar
I get like.
02:40:52
Brev Work Computer
And like have do that. And I'd rather have that. and
02:40:55
DarthSylar
Our talking isn't a substitute for it, but so go ahead and, as you said, it's going to be in print forever.
02:40:58
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:41:02
DarthSylar
So go ahead whenever you listen to this. And if you want to, i we do recommend it.
02:41:05
Daryl
Yeah.
02:41:07
DarthSylar
But like
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
02:41:08
DarthSylar
just that, there you go. But again, if you don't do it, that it that's that's just up to you.
02:41:15
Daryl
Well, it's like I just said one of one of these last few days on social media to somebody who was asking about the Jessica Jones TV show. And I was like, I don't like Bendis characters, period.
02:41:29
Daryl
It took me a couple of months to get through season one. And that was for the supporting characters and David Tennant. And I didn't watch seasons two or three, but... You're the one who has said you like the character. You're the only one who can say whether or not you like the show, so give it a try.
02:41:47
DarthSylar
Exactly.
02:41:48
Brev Work Computer
yeah i've forgotten just do your yeah i forgot your loathing of bendis
02:41:49
Daryl
Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that you're not going to like it. I'm some random stranger on the internet.
02:41:58
Daryl
ah
02:41:59
DarthSylar
Oh, you have no idea.
02:41:59
Daryl
Ugh.
02:42:00
Brev Work Computer
yes
02:42:01
Daryl
I don't know.
02:42:02
DarthSylar
he's...
02:42:03
Brev Work Computer
he doesn't bother me like he bothers you i'm i'm i mean i'm not i'm not one that's like man i gotta read everything he's ever written but he doesn't bother me ah
02:42:13
DarthSylar
he
02:42:14
Daryl
he He is he's the worst contemporary comics writer I've read, and that's saying a lot.
02:42:15
DarthSylar
I understand. ah general they but it did like at it
02:42:21
Brev Work Computer
Wow, that is saying a lot. There's some bad ones.
02:42:25
DarthSylar
But this was a good talk, everybody.
02:42:27
Brev Work Computer
Yes.
02:42:27
Daryl
It was. it it was great having you on to... to wax nostalgic and poetical about the dark night at 40.
02:42:36
Brev Work Computer
Yeah.
02:42:39
Daryl
And so we want to thank you for joining us. We want to thank everybody listening for joining us on casual nerdity.
02:42:42
DarthSylar
Thank you, Brev.
02:42:46
Daryl
Be sure. And here's where I have to do my ad now.
02:42:49
Brev Work Computer
Of course.
02:42:49
Daryl
Be sure to follow us on socials, Facebook, Instagram threads, blue sky and Twitter X, whatever it's being called this week.
02:42:49
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
02:42:49
DarthSylar
Mm-hmm.
02:42:57
Daryl
ah We are Casual Nerdity on all of them but Blue Sky. And on Blue Sky, we are CasualNerdity.com. ah Support the show by ordering a shirt from our merch store at store.casualnerdity.com. We have a couple of show-inspired ones, and we have some ah some Star Wars-inspired ones, a Fight the Empire and a Resistance is Not Terrorism.
02:43:25
Daryl
ah from recent episodes of Clone Wars. And you can also help the podcast get a larger reach by giving us a hopefully good review on your podcast platform of choice.
02:43:38
Daryl
Or if you're listening through YouTube, do all of those cliched YouTube things like liking, subscribing, getting notifications, because we want all of those algorithms to do the algorithm-y thing and get more eyes and ears.
02:43:49
DarthSylar
Sacrifice your firstborn.
02:43:51
Daryl
No, don't sacrifice your firstborn. Do your second.
02:43:54
Brev Work Computer
Don't tempt me. No, I like the second one. He's good.
02:43:57
Daryl
Oh, you like the second one?
02:43:58
Daryl
I know that the third is your favorite. so
02:43:58
Brev Work Computer
Don't, don't.
02:44:00
Brev Work Computer
Well, of course she is. Cause she's the only G.
02:44:01
Daryl
it
02:44:03
DarthSylar
Bye.
02:44:05
Daryl
But thank thank you all for listening.
02:44:05
Brev Work Computer
All right.
02:44:05
Brev Work Computer
well
02:44:07
Daryl
Until next time, we'll see you then. bye
02:44:11
DarthSylar
i
02:44:12
Brev Work Computer
Bye.