Clone Watch - Episode 26

Transcript

Speaker: Casual Nerdity is a podcast celebrating and discussing pop culture that we love. Movies, TVs, comics, books, games, you name it. Ari missed to talk about the good, what worked, and yeah, sometimes what didn't.

Speaker: All with an eye towards building up, not tearing down. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker: Welcome back to Casual Nerdity, dear listener. Hope that you are doing great. I am Daryl. I'm Nick. I'm Lauren. And I'm back.

Speaker: Betsy's back. Yeah. Back again. Having Betsy back. Yeah, you're going to be stuck with me for a lot of like the coming arcs because they were in my demands. Oh my goodness. Yes.

Speaker: Yes. You'll be back on the next Clone Watch for sure. hmm. And so I can yell about my daughter. Yep. And then I get to yell about my boys. Yeah. And I get to yell about my daughter again.

Speaker: to There's much yelling to be had. Yes, there will be much, much yelling. but It's one of my favorite pastimes. You're going to have to do some voice training, some of those music class to make sure that you don't lose your voice.

Speaker: ah You'll just have to listen to me yell silently. But it's an audio medium. I'll use text-to-speech. yeah You'll use AI? Oh, no no, no, no. Oh, no, I've read everything. No, thank you. There's text-to-speech that isn't AI.

Speaker: There we go. I'll use Microsoft SAM. Yeah, that's it. Like we did in the old days. We'll use the old ways. That's how we got our rafflecopters off the ground back then.

Speaker: My ancient of text-to-speech technique. Yes, the ancient texts.

Speaker: But it is probably going to be a long show this time. And not just because because Betsy's here. But sorry, not Because we're going to have stuff to say. So let's cut to the chase. So just insert some clever verbiage here. about the next Mollarch, which is made up of Revival Season 5, Episode 1, Eminence Season 5, Episode 14, Shades of Reason Season 5, Episode 15, and The Lawless Season 5, Episode 16. Oh, and I guess before we dive in, ah considering that we went from Season 5, Episode 1 to Episode 14, I guess we should really quickly, as we try to do on Clone Watch, recap what we're doing for those tuning in for the first time.

Speaker: We are watching Clone Watts in the chronological order, which is the correct way, but it does have... No, it's not. From a certain point of view.

Speaker: Obi-Wan was a dirty, rotten liar. Oh, no. think it is. From a certain point of view. that whole certain point of view thing. Obi-Wan's a dirty, rotten liar.

Speaker: Yeah, he knows what he's about. Mm-hmm. and where are we it from the cro wars We are watching Clone Wars because our good friend Lauren has been a part of many Star Wars campaigns as of now and future ones where they are experiencing our many incredibly layered deep level level level references that they would normally just dial along to.

Speaker: Yes, yes. I'm getting some more of those now. It's true, you are. You're catching on. Yes, and you're even making some of them occasionally now. oh little One of us! One of us! It's happening. It's happening.

Speaker: So let's dive into the first episode, Revival, Season 5, Episode 1. But all and more before we get into it, like if you want to join us on this torturous journey, as Daryl says, we're going to have the Epistle Chronologues of Rewards in the description.

Speaker: Yes. Yep. So Revival Season 5, Episode 1, Maul and Savage forcibly recruit pirates to their cause. So this is the last episode aired out of chronological sequence.

Speaker: And I'd say i don't know why they didn't just put it in the quote unquote right place, but I know exactly why they didn't. This made for a stronger, more promotable season premiere, given how Season 4 ended.

Speaker: Yeah, this is not even a lore reason or even like a fact that they made these goes back into how the actual production materials. like This was designed entirely for that.

Speaker: Coming off of, and I'm going to say out to you, I learned of the previous Mario Brothers finale. yeah. Yeah. ah yeah or It just was good business sense to have this be the first episode.

Speaker: Also, just behind the scenes, this was a transition from the usual late Friday night episode so release for Clone Wars to an actual standard Saturday morning 7 to 8 a.m. time slot.

Speaker: Sort of. Kind of. It's complicated. It wasn't universal and complicated, but but it was it it was a change that a lot of people were conflicted about. And like there's multiple people blank, but where's the episode? you We get going with Maul and Savage attacking a space station and stealing a cargo ship.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Savage is over at the safe like, look, I found the money. Did I do a good job, big bro? Are you proud of me, big bro? While I was waiting for you to answer, I made a sculpture of his holding hands out of the credit chips. This one over here is me, and this one with the frowny face is you.

Speaker: Meanwhile, Ball's looking at the complete opposite direction, and just his entire reaction is, just insert clip of Sam Witwer yelling Kenobi here, if you know, you know. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker: If you know, you know. Spoilers.

Speaker: Yes. Maul just, he was so obsessed and meanwhile Savage just wants his brother to notice him. It's honestly kind of sad. And speaking of their dynamic, Savage notes that he wants there to be equality between the brothers, throwing away the ideology of the Sith, but Maul is dominant in this regard.

Speaker: has to pretend to be. Yes, yes. Absolutely. he He has to get in there and say like, no, there's a master and an apprentice and I'm the master and you're the apprentice. So suck it.

Speaker: And we're definitely not brothers. And I definitely don't love you a whole lot. I care about you a whole lot either. And I'm taller than my new wits legs.

Speaker: What? Okay. I'll be park is really short. It's fine. We respect a short King on this podcast. i know but if contain like yeah At this point he has his really tall wits legs.

Speaker: Obi-Wan Adi Gallia investigate, learning that they headed towards Florum. And what's on Florum? Pirates. Oh boy. Like, I just love how Obi hears that they mentioned the Surtur Sector, just that they mentioned it, and he immediately knows not just where they're going, but who they're going to see, because this might as well just fucking happen.

Speaker: Also, i I gotta do my part as the lore guy. Adi Gallia... is Jedi that's been featured several times in Star Wars Legends.

Speaker: Not necessarily in the Star Wars canon at to this point, but she was prominent in the early early Clone Wars and prequel era materials, including comics and video games. Specifically, the Jedi Starfighter and the books.

Speaker: and You know what feel about Jedi Apprentice. Mm-hmm. And this is in her first time dealing with a pirate on a lot on a rocky world. She encountered the the Legends character, Pirate Lord Nym.

Speaker: m Neat. Yes. Very interesting. And they they they have ah history ink that goes even into the Star Wars Galaxy's MMORPG. True facts.

Speaker: Indeed. And so Mal and Savage recruit a group of who else's, but Hondo's pirates out from under him. Yes. this is another episode, ah Stephanie you can't listen to.

Speaker: Yes. Well, the, the other night when I was about to sit down and start watching and taking notes, I was like, okay, you know, it, it, it's the, it's the mall arc, you know?

Speaker: So I, this shouldn't be a problem. And then i I had forgotten and I read the synopsis and I was like, no, I have to wait for her to go to bed. Oh no. At least if you want to be able to also sleep in that same bed for the next week.

Speaker: a Yes. She will give your spot to the cats. Oh, she, will oh, she will. She will. The, the negotiation though, it it feels a bit too easy. Perhaps there was some dark side mind manipulation going on over there.

Speaker: No, pirates are just greedy. It could be equal parts because, again, the the ability to manipulate minds is the is supposed to be work on the the the weak-minded. and Well, the greedy-minded would be weak-minded. So um says it there's ah there's a good way to see that both could be true.

Speaker: So are we saying mind tricks work on them or are we saying it's only money? Yes. No, that's only toward Aryans. no we're we're We're saying that both work on them.

Speaker: Maul recruits them and then he he has a little conversation with with our buddy Hondo. Three of your lieutenants have already sworn allegiance to me. Traitors.

Speaker: Scum!

Speaker: I'm so proud. But, so betrayed.

Speaker: There is a penalty for resistance. No!

Speaker: Let me warn You are not the first laser sword-wielding maniac I've had to deal with. And Hondo Onaka survives every time.

Speaker: We shall see.

Speaker: And then there's some Obi-Wan and Hondo banter that I was certain that Betsy would have some thoughts about. Oh no, that comes later. That comes later. I'm saving it all a specific point.

Speaker: you're You're saving it all all for once? Mm-hmm. Awesome. Awesome. Well then, Maul and his pirates attack Hondo's base. Oh boy.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. And like, can we talk about the choice to color code the blaster fight between Hondo and Maul's merry band of pirates? Like, Reef's are seeing the blue blaster bolts going the one way and the red going the other way. and like, you know, every major Star Wars battle ever. But now they've transplanted the same symbolism to a battle between two pirate groups that were part of the same pirate group, like, just five minutes earlier. And that served as the antagonist in previous episodes.

Speaker: It was just for funsies. I went back and looked at the episode Dooku captured when we first meet Hondo. And guess what color blaster bolts he and his crew had then? ah Damn, you know, can't decide if I want to use the poetry clip or the foreshadowing clip. ah Somebody flip a coin for me.

Speaker: Heads is poetry, tails is foreshadowing. Or what if you wifi and ask me to do it? Oh, actually I actually have coin. Okay, flip one for me. Go for it. ah Ponies, one side, ah star the other side.

Speaker: Okay, heads, tails. Flip it. Flip it.

Speaker: So it would be entirely fancy to choose what what those sides were. Was it ponies or star? so mr bar oh So now I have to go. Foreshadowing is a literary device. Yay! did it!

Speaker: See, i i I was about to say that I was going to have to go and in post- get the clip from friends when Joey and Chandler left Ross's baby on the bus.

Speaker: Oh my God. transit authority to yeah get it. And there's two babies and one's wearing ducks and the other is wearing clowns. And they're like, well, we'll, we'll flip for it.

Speaker: Okay. Heads. but You have to assign heads to something. ah But we are we are not Friends Watch. We are Clone Watch. This is true.

Speaker: That would be a completely different show. At this point, Maul and Obi-Wan begin to fight each other. And Maul is talking during combat, and that feels really off. That's Maul? We're looking at Maul fighting right now? That's ah it's a little bit weird.

Speaker: And while while that's going on, the... Savage overpowers Adi Gallia and just stabs her through the gut while she's laying on the ground.

Speaker: With his head. With the horns on his head specifically. but that's ah that's the That's the initial part of his fatality. it goes hey It goes head horns and then the lightsaber double tap.

Speaker: I just think it's significant that we all acknowledge that he literally headbutted her with his horns. Yes. oh yeah like but That's never been sewn. it's always been assumed that the horns were sort of... It's never been implied that those are like the actual combative part of Zabrak culture.

Speaker: But Zavaz is built different, quite literally, with witch magic. Yeah. Yes. But yeah, Pirate Lord Nim will remember this in Legends and name a whole mountain after Adialia. Because they were friends.

Speaker: oh And so will Obi-Wan, because he saw the death of the master of one of the long list of lovers who died in his arms. Hashtag justice for Siritachi. ah And then Hondo convinces his men to rejoin him while Obi-Wan fights the brothers.

Speaker: Where are the rest of your men? They are setting up an ambush. We can't use your help. Where is the other Jedi? She's... She's dead. She's... They are too powerful for even you.

Speaker: I am semi-speechless. I think they were... I shall draw the brothers away. Once that's done, blast the passageway closed. And leave you alone with the two crazies?

Speaker: Yeah, okay.

Speaker: I love that. Betsy? No, me too. That's an amazing moment. But i Betsy, the floor. it if if if we ever if we ever reveal like the behind the behind the scenes,

Speaker: The floor is hers. Yeah, this is where I originally sent a message about, know, me talking about Ernest having way in the context of Star Wars because that's what's about to happen. Oh boy. Here we go.

Speaker: It's green time. It's just because, you know, can I just take a sec to talk about this exchange between the two of them Too late, I'm already doing it. I love this. like For all that they've previously been on opposite sides, you can tell that there's a lot of mutual respect between Obi-Wan and Hondo, even if neither of them would ever admit it, including at Blaster Point.

Speaker: Because they wouldn't. Obi-Wan often makes a show of expressing his disgust at Hondo's uncivilized ways, But after their first meeting, I think Obi has kind of come to understand Hondo. Like he recognizes that Hondo was a ruthless pirate leader who was on all kinds of terrible shit. But I think he also recognizes that a measure of that is performative.

Speaker: And like underneath it, Hondo possesses like a personal sense of honor, which kind of serves as his own sort of moral framework. Like Hondo isn't a good guy. Like hell no, he's not a good guy at all. But I think he embodies a lot of the traits that describe a, and this is where i get into the lit analysis of it, a Hemingway code hero. If anyone remembers talking about that back in high school English class.

Speaker: Lycondo is courageous, which I'm specifically defining here as action in the face of fear, not any kind of, like, you know, moral quality necessarily. And he's also individualistic.

Speaker: He's a bit of a hedonist, but only in, quote-unquote, manly ways. He refuses to show emotion, Zed maintains, like, a detached sort of stoicism and cynicism about life. He is a man of action rather than theory, and he acts honorably according to his own idea of his own personal sense of honor, at least.

Speaker: despite you know the pain and chaos of life in a world where he knows he can never truly win. I think that part of Hondo resonates a bit with Obi-Wan because he can identify with some of those experiences, especially the parts about refraining from emotional expression as a defense mechanism and maintaining an internal sense of honor despite the pain of existence. Obi-Wan can look at Hondo and see which parts of him are pure performance and which parts are genuine, and it's the latter that allows him to understand.

Speaker: like I think it's those common traits also that allow Hondo to understand and respect his good friend Obi-Wan as well. Like, he'll rag on Obi for all of his Jedi sensibilities and knows that they'll never see eye to eye on a whole lot of things, but he can respect the person Obi-Wan is, even if he can't respect the majority of his choices.

Speaker: After all, Obi-Wan might live by a code, but it's the Jedi code, not a personal one. Hondo also respects and I think even admires Obi-Wan as a warrior too. Like, you can hear it in this clip how surprised he is that Obi-Wan couldn't single-handedly defeat Maul and Savage because usually he would bet on Obi-Wan to win every time.

Speaker: What sticks out to me too is I don't think Hondo's admiration stems from just the typical... Jedi powers plus laser sword equals good fighter, but rather from his own experiences seeing Obi-Wan fight.

Speaker: Like, he didn't say he couldn't believe a Jedi couldn't take the brothers, he was surprised about Obi-Wan specifically. So much so that he actually broke K-fabe and expressed genuine concern.

Speaker: While his men were standing right there, by the way. he even almost tries to stop Obi-Wan from sacrificing himself, but, you know, then the mask comes back up at the last minute and the self-preservation instant kicks back in.

Speaker: Though how much of that is genuine and how push that is performance is also anyone's guess. Also, personally, I can't help but wonder if this might have been the moment when Hondo finally admitted to himself that the good friend thing had become way too genuine to just be a bit anymore.

Speaker: Betsy, that's actually beautiful. Beautiful. fair it is And i completely, believe completely, especially your, your, your, your sort of a Hemingway coded, coded hero, hero response. Can you tell I was an English major for a hot minute? Nah, not at all.

Speaker: Right. Who would have guessed? Who would have guessed? I swear I'm normal about media. As we all are. We all? Because you isn't it being totally normal about media to get in front of microphones and record our thoughts about the media and put it out there for tens of people to listen to? I mean, I'm the kind of person where I remember in high school, me and my friends went to a movie. I don't even remember which movie it was. But we, in unison, after seeing a raven appear on screen, like two of us said, Raven of Death! And then we yelled, Motif! Out loud, really loud. Because we're those kind of people. Yeah. And we were delighted. We were having the best time. Yes, we verbatim said the word motif. I'm just like this. My friends and I didn't do that in the theater, but two of us were film majors when we got to college. We knew each other since high school. And we would all sit around on Saturday nights with movies of various quality running And sit there and do everything from place penny bets on the various tropes that were occurring and would occur next to actually just sitting there and just having full on you know discussions that took longer than the movies themselves to have about the movies. And is it any wonder is it any wonder that I enjoy the movie Defenders? Yeah.

Speaker: right? Like, I've told you that it takes about two hours per episode for this podcast. On the inverse, which has been shown as a study, like, I used to show my friends terrible movies because they had some rather terrible taste in movies.

Speaker: Used to? Used Yeah, what is this used to of which you speak? It's been a while since we've done so. Nick, it's been barely over a year.

Speaker: That's not enough time for me to mentally recover. Since the last time we were in your house watching Neil Breen. I'm still scarred from that dance break. And the tiger wife. so Robert still has to be covered.

Speaker: I was there. You were there, Lauren. Lauren was there for the dance break and the tiger wife and everything else. Yeah. Nick, you need to go sit in the corner and think about what you've done. With the rats.

Speaker: And the squirrels. All of the rodents. and this worlds all of the rodents ah I don't have the squirrel clip from how we roll loaded up. Oh, no. Hang You can keep that one just like as a matter.

Speaker: Well, yeah ah that's how the sound board works. i wish it I wish it did, because if it did, then i would be ready at a moment's notice, regardless of the show. Squirrel. For for that.

Speaker: Beautiful. Good job, Daryl. I'm proud of you. ah Anyways. Anyway, Obi-Wan gets the upper hand and the Sith flee.

Speaker: But it's also really cool. We get to see Obi-Wan dual wielding lightsabers and taking on a Sith Lord and an overpowered force wielder like Savaz and winning.

Speaker: Yep, he does in fact give Savage the Kenobi Special TMCR and chops off his arm. And I want everyone to know that I did in fact type out the TMCR in the notes. Yes, yes, yes, she did. I went out of my way to type it out. And Mala's quite distressed about this.

Speaker: They beat Hondo's pirates to their ship, the the Sith do, and they take off, but the pirates shoot down the ship. We're missing the best moment of the entire... I'm surprised we didn't didn't put this in in the clips.

Speaker: Maul is confronted by by Hondo and his regrouped pirates, and and he calls them out on their insolence. We are pirates. We don't even know what that means. Yes. Beautiful.

Speaker: And they're firing on him. And that's when Maul gets shot in hit in his robot legs, which is proves that they are just made of witch magic. That's when they beat pirate Hondo's pirates to the ship, take off. The pirates shoot down the ship, but the brothers escape in, well, in escape pod, because that's what you do.

Speaker: yep And this is like the 4th or 5th ship to crash on Florib. i think that's There's gotta be a whole ship graveyard over there. RPG story hook.

Speaker: yep ooh And then Obi-Wan Hondo pull up to the crash site on his speeder bike built for two.

Speaker: Well, Kenobi, let's get out there and see what riches have fallen from the sky for me and you.

Speaker: Shall we? Very well. There's no sign of those two, boss. Well, if the condition of these goods is any indication, your friends have been vaporized.

Speaker: I wouldn't be so sure. I cut one of them in half once and he survived. Well, isn't that interesting? I just love those little exchanges. love them so much. yeah I'll leave you wi to e face the two psychos alone?

Speaker: Okay. is this apparently again like Considering that he's pulling out like mounds of treasure, it's like, well, I guess they blew up.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Don't investigate the treasure Obi-Wan because there's none for you. I just want everyone to know that they were in fact riding a two-seater speeder bike. In this scene, it's very important to me that everyone knows that that is literally what they were riding.

Speaker: Yep. That Hondo specifically had for some reason. They are besties and I would not to be surprised if Hondo has a has had made a friendship race for Obi-Wan. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker: Back on Coruscant, the Jedi meet with Chancellor Palpatine, who declares the matter's closed. Very heavily. He's like, very succinctly. Done.

Speaker: Done. that That mall guy. Done. not Nothing to see here. Move along. As you were. There's a clone war going on. Let's continue with the clone wars.

Speaker: Situation normal. Everything's fine. We're all fine here. How are you? Well, it's funny we should ask, how are you? Because Obi-Wan's not sure.

Speaker: But Yoda says that, well, if Maul survived, he'll make his presence known sooner or later, and we can deal with him then. And i love how everyone, like, after giving his report and, like, warning about Maul possibly building his own army slash crime syndicate, everyone just kind of shakes their head and tells Obi-Wan to stop being such a drama queen about his crazy ex because it's not their problem Maul has an eternal heat motor for him, despite no longer having a dick because Obi-Wan kind of cut it off along with the rest of his lower body. Bisexual will do that to you.

Speaker: But, you know, surely this will have no future consequences for anyone whatsoever. Surely. Foreshadowing is a literary device. It's fine. We close the scene on an ominous shot of Palpatine smirking.

Speaker: Given that final conversation with Yoda... Was this episode really out of sequence at the start of the season? Isn't it just as reasonable that Maul and Savage have been just lurking in the back? Even as we go along into these next episodes, there's plenty of time for them to have been lurking around in the background during the Onderon, Youngling, and D-Squad arcs.

Speaker: No, I would agree. Of the out of chronological breaks, which we have broken down multiple times, this is the least egregious. It has the least reason, but it it's the least egregious.

Speaker: But yeah at at the same time, moving it quote unquote officially to where it sits in the chronological listing makes it a lot easier to rewatch in story arc bundles, which is awfully convenient for us.

Speaker: there there There is also the factor that where we pick up with them, well, where where we left them off in this episode, they're going to be floating about in space in an escape pod. And where we pick up with them, they are exactly there. So lurking around in the shadows would just mean floating in space for that entire period of time. Yeah. Well, floating space. We're like, you're little busy after that. and Yeah, floating in space. And you it it takes more than 22 minutes for them to go through all of the motions that they go through next.

Speaker: like They get pretty busy and they do a lot of things and go a lot of places and see a lot of people. Yeah, you could argue. There's a lot of argument about that. But I would say that unlike the previous ones was like, well, there's entire sequences where it's like, this doesn't make sense without that episode taking place beforehand.

Speaker: This one is like, okay, you could you could pick her two was here. and yep and that takes us then into that next episode eminence season 5 episode 14 and i know nick hates how this is worded but this is pulled directly from disney plus but yeah to make a reference with the death watch that targets let me let me start that over again the siths ally with the death watch that targets obi-wan kenobi It should be the Sith aligned with the deaf wats.

Speaker: Sorry for being a grammar imperial. It's okay. I had a joke that I was going to make that I deleted, but I can put it back in now. Hold on. Keep reading.

Speaker: The escape pod is drifting in space and it's found by Death Watch in a scene that is very admittedly modeled on the opening of Aliens, which once again, Ripley was floating out there for 57 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: So it's nothing for Maul and Savage to be floating for, you know, of a few weeks or a couple of months. Because while, yes, three story arcs happened, remember, the entirety of the Clone Wars is only in the span of three years. yes Either way, no one's going to be back for anyone's 11th birthday.

Speaker: Yeah. Oh, I put my joke back in. Yeah, go get We get full frontal on the Deathwash logo when Vizsla slices his way in. Or Kirstad for the Karens listening. Sorry, did I say Karens? I meant Kare-in. Yes. you Yeah, she's not listening.

Speaker: She's not listening to us. See, I made my own grammar joke. She's not listening to us. I'll see myself out. No, no, no, no. Get back here. You have more monologues.

Speaker: but That's good. that's good yeah and Extra high five from me whenever you set up again. But guess who's back? Back again. Duster is back.

Speaker: it's It's still in the hands of the Mandalorians. Yes, that's the only place we've ever seen it so far. yeah So far. So far. So far. so fun Pre-Vizsla questions Maul. He seems pretty knowledgeable about the Sith, like knowing about the rule of two and all of that. And when he learns that Maul has the hates as opposed to the hots for Kenobi, orders his droids to patch them up.

Speaker: Yeah, he can have both. Yes, and he notes, an enemy of the Jedi is a friend of mine. At which point, they give ball some new legs.

Speaker: yeah they're I this. I really don't. They're pretty normal looking legs this time. That said, as Maul wakes up, he ah he's he'ss pretty violent initially, but they start keeping Maul line by threatening Savage.

Speaker: You're not Jedi. So what are you?

Speaker: Okay, so really quick, can we talk for sec about Maul being ready to throw down and only holding himself because Bo-Katan pointed a at Savage?

Speaker: okay so really quick can we talk for a sec about mall being ready to throw down and only holding himself back because boka to pointed at a blaster at sava Like, the dude made such a big performance in the last episode of like, I'm your master, not your brother. Focus on the mission, which is also Kenobi. I am feigning so much indifference right now to he's the only reason I haven't locked myself across this bed bed to rip your throat up with my teeth. And you you if you even touch him, I will eat your entire right arm as a post-surgery snack.

Speaker: And you know, that's actually a like real threat coming from someone who did spend a long time in a cave eating people. Which I feel like not enough people talk about, by the way. They were eating people in that cave. Yes. Also, he is a weird scorpion spider thing as well. as Yeah, but him and Morley the snake were eating people in the cave. They sure were. Eating people. yeah Cannibalism. Cannibalism.

Speaker: Just no one talks about that enough. I do want to know more about Morley. What were their relationships like? Were they friends? Roommates? Were they roommates? Oh my God, they were roommates.

Speaker: But anyway, sorry, that got track. Like there's just so much to say about their dynamic. Like Mal grew up learning that vulnerability was weakness and weakness meant death. A lesson instilled in the most harsh, painful way anyone could possibly manage. Like every relationship, every hope, every emotion that wasn't anger resulted in punishment.

Speaker: Usually of the electrocution variety. And he learned to do everything in his power to bury those parts of himself as deeply as possible where no one, i.e. Palpatine, could ever find them. He never succeeded, just his use of we in Phantom Menace, I think, speaks to that when they talk about now we will reveal ourselves to the Sith. He still thinks of himself as like part of this bigger thing and is including himself in the equation.

Speaker: ah But throughout all his interactions with Savage, he's done everything he can to just still keep that detached facade in place. It's only now when Savage's still unconscious body is threatened directly that Maul actually lets the care for his brother show at the surface, even going so far as to respond to Vizla's quip with the assertion that he and Savage are brothers. Yeah.

Speaker: And I think that's only it now because Savage is unconscious when this happens. I think Maul is doing what a lot of traumatized people do in this type of situation, where he's trying to protect Savage from experiencing the same pain and suffering that he felt.

Speaker: by modeling how it was that he, as in Mal, survived. Like, cool disinterest with simmering anger underneath never got Mal electrocuted, but sentimentality did. And nothing oozes sentimentality like Savage's open display's brotherly affection.

Speaker: Mal knows what that kind of behavior earns. He still remembers the pain, and I think he's going out of his way to rebuff Savage's attempts at genuine connection out of his own sense of love and care, and most importantly, like, a paternal responsibility.

Speaker: Like, Maul couldn't protect himself, but he can protect his brother. Even if that means he needs to protect Savage from knowing how much his brother really cares. Like, to Maul, safety doesn't come from connection or belonging.

Speaker: It comes from power. And I think that is what he wants to try and give Savage the only way he knows how to give it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yes, very true. Ultimately, the the two, they find that they have a mutual enemy in Kenobi, and Maul says that he's willing to help, at which point he talks in private to his brother, saying, they possess honor, another weakness.

Speaker: Dun, dun, dun. And so then we after after they've recovered a bit, then they actually, you Maul actually has a sit down with Vizsla.

Speaker: Your mark. The sign of Clan Vizsla. I am Pre Vizsla. We are the Death Watch. Descendants of the true warrior faith all Mandalorians once knew.

Speaker: Now my people are living in exile because we will not abandon our heritage. Our people were warriors. Strong. Feared. Now they're ruled by the new Mandalorians who think that being a pacifist is a good thing.

Speaker: They've given away our honor and tradition for peace. Duchess Satine and her corrupt leadership are crushing our souls, destroying our identity.

Speaker: That is our struggle. If they are weak, why do you wait? The Duchess has powerful allies, including your Jedi friend Kenobi.

Speaker: He is also responsible for our exile. Perhaps fortune brought us together. It is the will of the Force. We can help you reclaim Mandalore.

Speaker: And punish Kenobi for his trespasses. We allied ourselves with Sith before. Count Dooku, he betrayed us. Sith are no better than Jedi.

Speaker: They claim to be powerful, but we put these two back together after the Jedi gutted them. Doubt will only lead to failure. Hold!

Speaker: Our combined strength will be rewarded. Mandalore will be yours, and Kanobi, this Sith-Protender Dooku, and all our enemies.

Speaker: I'm sure that you know, Betsy might have some some things to say along with me here, but how's about we talk about Pre Vizsla and his dog whistles about heritage and legacy being taken away in favor of? Dog whistles? Those are some pretty, they're pretty loud. Ear horns. Yeah, they are more like ear horns.

Speaker: But they all of that being taken away in favor of, you know, not constantly fighting and otherwise partaking in violence. yeah It sure would be nice to say that we don't hear people talking like this in the real world, especially from the people who are ostensibly leading our country. But hey ah yeah, and, you know, lets you know and everything's fine.

Speaker: Yeah, just ignore how, you know, he was basically like, you know, verbatim reading some of Ur-fascism there too. Like, you know, if they're so weak, why don't you take over? Well, they have power for allies. We're also powerful, but they're also also very powerful, but also weak.

Speaker: These have to coexist. Yeah, it's our it's our heritage. It's our heritage. Not hate, heritage. What is your heritage exactly? Please enlighten us.

Speaker: Yes. And also, you despite despair that despite Mal choking her out, Bo-Katan seems pretty pleased with how that meeting went after mall leaves.

Speaker: And so does Vizsla. Maybe they were just all very impressed at Maul's mic drop where he said fall right when he dropped her. Oh, yeah. yeah there really There is a part of the lore in that this isn't the first time the Sith have abused and used the Mandalorians.

Speaker: It sure is not. wait how much of that is canon still? Maul then, he he starts late laying out, not all at once, but he starts going through a few steps of getting things set up here. First, he suggests that Death Watch ally with Black Sun.

Speaker: As you do. and Yeah, as you do. Casually. So they go to black they go to Black Sun, and Black Sun... On Luthabar. Black Sun denies Maul's request. No, it's not a request. It's a it's a demand. It's a demand. for an For an army and threatens to kill the group.

Speaker: at At which point, in just a sick maneuver, Savage tosses his lightsaber. decapitating the entire Black Sun Council that's sitting around the conference table.

Speaker: i was going to say literally and figuratively, just every single one of those Vigos lost their heads. Yep. Yep. casualdual It's fine. At that point, the Pikes show up and say like, um can can can we play?

Speaker: We want in. Can we join your club? This is the first time the Pikes Syndicate has shown up in canon. They become much more prominent in later stories. All right. I thought they showed up in the movie. ah They showed up in the movie, but they weren't identified as a syndicate or the Pykes.

Speaker: Fair. So then they go to Nalhutta to press the Hutt cartels into service. And after fighting some recurring bounty hunters, they head to Tatooine to take on Jabba and the Hutts give in.

Speaker: Yeah, but i just want everyone know that I'm pretty sure in that one scene I got named Bounty Hunter Bingo. Oh yeah yeah, it's fun. Notably... a foxtu fiveque Yes, yes. Notably, a Sugi, one of the Hutt's mercenaries and a member of the Bro's species, has some particularly cool action. Also, the Hat Shield guy, he's also here again. Embo!

Speaker: With his canine companion! And... And Anuba! And... Spoilers. But not really, because it's in the trailer, and Bo is showing up in The Mandalorian and Grogu, coming to a theater near you in a couple of months.

Speaker: Neat. Woo! Which we're going to be able to watch together, because I'm going to watch it with you guys. all right Lauren, I'm so glad you called out Sugi because I also got very excited when I saw Sugi. Oh, Sugi's cool. Sugi's underrated.

Speaker: i feel like they gave her a particularly notable presence in the combat scene just because she's the same species. Honestly, that's fair. oh When you read Aftermath, you get to learn about her niece. Oh boy. yeah It's actually really cool.

Speaker: And she shows up in several ah images in the RPG books, actually. hurt Her niece and her, which is really fun. It's like there's a little story arc going on there. Yeah. Oh, actually, Lauren, you know my character in Robert's game, Ashes of an Empire? Yeah. Iridonian Zabrak? Yeah, that's what she looks like, basically. Oh, okay, cool.

Speaker: Yeah, Iridonian Zabrak. Mm-hmm. So Maul tells Vizsla that the plan is to take Mandalore and with Vizsla in charge, the Mandalorians will provide protection for Maul's new crime syndicate.

Speaker: When they have a moment alone, Vizsla tells Bo-Katan that they're going to take Mandalore and kill Maul and Savage. ah Curse you and your sudden but inevitable betrayal. Oh no, betrayal. Oh man, that would have been a good clip.

Speaker: How will the brothers be able to defeat this masterful deceit? I guess we will find out. And where we'll probably find out is in the next episode, Shades of Reason, Season 5, Episode 15, the Sith and Death Watch launch an attack on Mandalore. Oh, they did the grammar right.

Speaker: yeah Yes, they did the grammar right. So I'm just going to say here that Maul has a pretty decent plan for taking over Mandalore.

Speaker: We've identified them at these locations. However, as I've said before, if we try to take Mandalore by force, our people will turn against us. I will use my army of crime lords to attack different targets across Sundari and sow chaos to undermine the Duchess's rule.

Speaker: Our gangsters will make her look too weak to maintain control. Then you and your Death Watch will capture and arrest us bringing order where Satine's weak government could not.

Speaker: We'll be saviors. Exactly. good plan. Indeed. I'll prepare the troops.

Speaker: Now, of course, Vizsla is still planning to betray the Sith, but they're not dumb, and they're actually expecting that. But Maul explains to Savage that they can't rule Mandalore openly without attracting the Jedi, which kind of undermines this whole idea of making Mandalore their base of operations for this whole new crime syndicate that he's put together and the Mandalorians being their muscle.

Speaker: Well, I mean, the whole reason it works is because Mandalore is a neutral system. So like, you know, legally the Republic can't get involved and do anything. Exactly. That's what they're banking on. As long as that stays.

Speaker: Yeah. So Vizsla publicly challenges Satine, offering a solution to the Syndicate's attacks.

Speaker: Yes, yes. As the Syndicates are attacking, Satine makes a speech and then Death Watch interrupts to take over. Yep, and Death Watch stops. Heavy on the air quotes.

Speaker: Could you hear those air quotes? you The syndicates gaining public support. Yes, yes. Even even at the start, Vizsla says, make sure to pawn a good show.

Speaker: yeah And during during this particular show, we have Vizsla versus Savage in a saber battle, which even if it's fake, it's still a pretty cool moment.

Speaker: oh ah the The whole montage going on here is for a show, it is quite the spectacle. Mm-hmm. So, like, literally the way I was spending that whole montage, like, vibrating in place, because just, honestly, it's kind of funny just the way things are. Maul and Savage are currently playing the role of CIA?

Speaker: Sith-IA? Is that too cringe? No, no, you're good. Okay. Though I guess that makes sense since Vizsla kind of lost his FBI privileges after his last outing. i It's just they're literally doing it by the numbers.

Speaker: And in the old Republic era of legends, but that hasn't been contradicted yet. Sif intelligence and spies were behind many events in galactic history, including manipulating the Mandalorians and their warrior culture to cause conflict, chaos, even turning their attention against the Jedi. So this is one of those moments where time is a flat circle or.

Speaker: Again, it's like poetry. Yep. yep So Pre Vizsla takes the position of prime minister for himself with the public's approval and turns on Maul, wanting him to be his muscle and parades him up in front of the crowds. yeah The bros get imprisoned, but Maul notes, we will find allies here.

Speaker: And they very easily escape their cell. This is a moment where the really cool Mandalorian glass design aesthetic really doesn't work in their favor.

Speaker: yeah It doesn't work in their favor. This is also why in real life you would like isolate your political prisoners as much as possible so they can't talk to each other. Yeah, you don't put them in the same cell.

Speaker: You don't put them in the same cell block. Yeah. But though what I'm saying is you don't put them in the same cell and allowing one of them to just, you know, make a great big supernatural burst of pressure and break the glass that forms the walls. I mean, give some credence to what Previzilus was talking about. Like, uh,

Speaker: in the In the old Mandalorian times, they would have would' have locked him up in something much more secure. Also, can I just say that I think Vizsla's being a little short-sighted because in locking them up, it's like, ah you know, those were the guys that were keeping Black Sun and the Pyke Syndicate and the Hutts on your side too, right? Throw that out there.

Speaker: Fortunately, he didn't have to worry about that in the long term, but... But after they get out of their cell, Maul and Savage recruit Satine's prison neighbor, Almec.

Speaker: Yep. They easily freely. After have a talk with Satine, it's like, Almec's almost as corrupt as you. And they're right. And she's like, no, damn it. I should have told them that.

Speaker: ah You know, that when Maul, when she says that and Maul says to her, thank you for your cooperation, I immediately flashed to Black Widow in the Avengers movie. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Where she you know manipulates Loki into telling her everything. she you know He thinks that she's all weepy. and oh so that's your plan.

Speaker: you seem separate It's the exact inverse. It sees the guys that he's interrogating at the beginning of Avengers. This guy's giving me everything? Yeah. and yeah they They very easily free Albeck with a big force push.

Speaker: Yeah, the these Mandalorian cells are no match for a good force push. It's about the aesthetic. Unlike the good old days of the Old Republic.

Speaker: the The Old Republic of Mandalorian cells. They would have been able to handle this. Yeah. yeah that so They weren't as aesthetic. So all then Malvin plans to... But Olmec proposes the plan.

Speaker: Yeah. Olmec's a unique character that i do kind of like. He's like, oh wait, wait dead well if you don't know Mandalorian history 101...

Speaker: if you tell him... And I kind of have it here. Yomal plans to challenge Vizsla to personal combat, and Almec is then the one to tell him that, you know, if you win, according to ancient Mandalorian tradition, Death Watch is going to be honor-bound to follow you.

Speaker: You know, in another universe, Almec is one of those guys that's like just a little too interested in the Roman Empire in World War II history. Oh, so you mean like just a third of guys? Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, basically. Question, though. When Almec greets, say, Satine or whoever, does he say, m'lady?

Speaker: Oh, no. Well, he'd say it in Mandoa. Yeah. Only Karen Travis were writing it. True. It would have to be her conlang that's not even a really good conlang Mandoa.

Speaker: And he'd mispronunciate it because he'd be speaking it as it would be modernly spelled instead of like the actual pronunciation. yeah No, no, no, because that's where she gets into her whole thing about Concordian dialects.

Speaker: Oh, you're right. Because I remember that. Do you remember that? I remember that. Yeah. i remember that bullshit. I was there. Unfortunately, i wish I wasn't.

Speaker: So yeah, at this point, we have some Maul versus Vizsla, and Vizsla is using every tool and weapon to keep up with Maul. Honestly, it's a little bit Batman-coded to a degree.

Speaker: But it is sort of the proof that it to quote, to to sort of acknowledge a meme from... No, to invoke a meme from Invincible. It's like, look at how much they have to do to match the power of a Sith Lord.

Speaker: a All that for a drop of blood. yeah laly Ultimately, he does manage to disarm Maul, but Maul quickly disarms Vizsla in kind. Much to Karen Travis's dismay.

Speaker: yeah it very yeah this This whole arc is ah is like is is her worst nightmare. She's crying and and just seething in a corner right now. I love it. It is a very cool Sith versus Mandalorian with Darksaber fight, but ultimately... Maul wins and decapitates Vizsla. We're getting a lot of decapitations in this storyline.

Speaker: And Vizsla does live up to the vibe. As much as he's not as truly honorable of a leader as he intends to be, when it comes to this, he does take the like only the strongest lead and he accepts that decapitation like an honorable warrior.

Speaker: Yep. Mm-hmm. And like, I'm going to be honest, I know fuck all about like sword fighting and combat and whatever. So this just made kind of like spitballing what I was seeing. But I feel like this fight had a level of brutality to it that I don't recall seeing before on this show, or at least not seeing like this much of. Like so much of what we see is range combat with like blasters and that maintains the level of distance or it's lightsaber batters.

Speaker: lightsaber battles, but it features at least one Jedi. Because, you know, even Vader can himself has a level of refinement to his movements, or at least, you know, if that's what I see. But this, though, like, between Maul and Vizsla, it was just an all-out brawl. And I feel like it was designed to look as vicious and brutal as possible.

Speaker: Like, I think it's the way the team just put so much effort into animating the blows connecting so heavily and making each one audible. Not with, like, you know, the super Sentai swooshy, like, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh sound effects, but, like, what actually sounded like flesh connecting. and Or even, like, the flamethrower sounds having that audible whoosh and the... Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, and like there's even a few moments like there's this one where we see like spittle and possibly a tooth fly out of Vizzle's mouth when he gets kneed in the face that someone went out of their way to put in there because they had to literally animate that happening.

Speaker: and the scar that Baal will retain throughout the the rest of this arc on his cheek from the blade. Yeah, it's like I think this whole fight scene just really sells what kind of people Maul and Vizsla are, that like no level of brutality is too far because it's not just like a show of strength or power, but of honor and earning the right to lead by earning the right to live. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't think even the choice of how... I think even the choice of how to censor the final blow says a lot because, you know, like, kid shows that can't just show full-on decapitation on screen. But instead of, like, you know, having it just out of frame or cutting to black or something like that, they just barely cover it by, like, pulling the camera back and putting Bo-Katan in frame so that, like,

Speaker: As the camera pans, just the exact moment the blade falls, it's hidden behind her and it's like just out of focus enough so that no one could actually use Cartoon Network of airing an execution on TV. But that is pretty much what Cartoon Network just did, airing an execution on TV.

Speaker: And again, there is... Two episodes in a row. Yep. Yeah. But there's also a... This also goes back to the first time that's ever happened and when there was incredibly controversial for like Star Wars as a whole...

Speaker: in episode three, which we'll get to, but it is sort of like Star Wars, this is Star Wars starting to like, there's a line that Star Wars butts up against. Yeah, but even then, that was still where it was like, you know, slightly off screen, where everything was shot from above, so you didn't see it. This one, it was like all but the exact moment was right there, out in the open. We did see the, see the, unlike this one, we did we didn't see the head roll in episode three. Yeah, what we saw afterwards. we I'm not talking about like, we didn't see the actual like, lightsabers go, head disconnects.

Speaker: This one, we like, all but the exact moment that the blade came down, we saw everything. But is like that is where like there is like a... start When people say, like how stark Star Wars can get, there that's like where they're putting up against like the terms of the violence. like I think it's interesting because this also aired before the movie came out.

Speaker: Or no, it didn't. Sorry, I made that up in my brain. No, it came after it. Yeah. And you like you said, and we say quite often... when we're when we're doing Clone Watch. Remember folks, this is a kids show. A kids show! You know, for kids!

Speaker: But like I think that's the most on-screen fight. Wars for kids! But the the fight over, we now get...

Speaker: claim this sword and my rightful place as leader of Death Watch. And that right there is the first step in the Darksaber's lore changing from lightsaber with cool, unique blade to a symbol of leadership. And we'll go more into this, Lauren, when and if we move on to Rebels. Because thought about that.

Speaker: Again, the original idea of pre was Pre Vizsla would be wielding a Cortosis blade, Cortosis being a in Legends and still in in canon material that can deflect and match against a lightsaber. But it was George Lucas that started the change, changed it into being an actual lightsaber that was stolen from the temple.

Speaker: And its role and importance was discussed by Filoni and Favreau in them sketching out the canon Mando lore going forward that makes a certain Karen go crazy.

Speaker: go crazy. And so put a pin on the Darksaber because this is the start of that really becoming the chains. Alright.

Speaker: And Mando lore. I see what you did there and and I like it. It's very punny. a a I like it. You can't see that I'm doing the finger guns thing but I am doing the finger guns thing.

Speaker: Because that's the only proper response to a pun like that. it did i wish i it was it was mine. I saw out someone else doing it. But Bo-Katan isn't having any of this, saying no outsider will ever rule Mandalore. So she takes off with a group of like-minded Death Watch members. They're called the Night Owls. they Night Owls!

Speaker: Why? I've seen her too. Oh, yeah. Almec claims that Satine... Foe news... killed Vizsla and ordered him to resume his office as prime minister and resume Mandalore's warrior status. Like, who would believe that Satine could beat Vizsla? Like, i I honestly don't know how much, much like, like a Photoshop they had to change that to like try and make a that work.

Speaker: and And the pacifist ruler killed Vizsla. The warrior. Yeah. Yeah. that's ah that That sure is a story right there.

Speaker: Sure it is looking for is. They didn't say that she killed him. I think they said that she ordered him executed or something. They're trying to be like, oh, she just had someone else do her dirty work for her. Which is honestly even dumber.

Speaker: It's just...

Speaker: It just don't make sense. And that takes us into The Lawless, Season 5, Episode 16. Using Duchess Satine, Darth Maul lures Obi-Wan into a trap.

Speaker: I promise I'm going to have feelings. You're going to have a whole lot of feelings, aren't you? I'm going super normal. Super normal. I tell you, as frequently as the word trap has come up in Clone Wars, I should have Ackbar's It's a Trap clip from day one.

Speaker: You really should have. That's kind an oversight on all of our parts. Yeah, it is. ah It's just cliche. I mean, you could even use the Robot Chicken one if you wanted.

Speaker: Oh, yeah, that's how that would be that. that was he i' be cray away again and fear I fear what I would do is is go a little overboard, kind of like I originally did with the It's Like Poetry, It Rhymes when I did every every variation. And I would even pull from one of the Lego Star Wars specials where he's like, it's a tactical response assault party. Oh,

Speaker: yeah, I can see where that can get get a bit bunched. So Satine is still in prison and she's sprung by Corky, her nephew. And we're going to talk about Corky a little bit later. But dear listeners, I must apologize as i was putting together my notes for this episode and getting ready for the Corky conversation.

Speaker: i was sitting there thinking, wait a second. I could swear I remember seeing you Corky have scenes with Ahsoka. Ahsoka. And I went back and looked and we skipped accidentally like seven whole episodes back around seasons two, three, including Corky's first and only other appearance back in season three.

Speaker: We jumped straight from the Duchess of Mandalore to Sphere of Influence. um And so ah we're we're going to figure out you know the best time and way to do make goods on those. yeah those obsess fall right therere all ah I know exactly whose fault it is, but I've already embarrassed him enough today.

Speaker: So does this mean I can't make OBT and family reunion jokes yet? Not yet. We'll get there. and Okay. I'm biting my tongue this whole time, though. I hope you know that. I just don't get a lot of jokes.

Speaker: Just be careful not to bite the your tongue entirely off. Yeah, that would be bad. It would be hard for you to have your input into the episode. Yes, yes. That would be somewhat difficult. but And it wouldn't taste very good. And...

Speaker: and Bo-Katan is helping Corky. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, to which Satine replies, there was once a time we weren't enemies.

Speaker: Curiouser, curiouser. More jokes I had to cut out. and then Satine tries Satine finally manages to get signal and get a call out to Obi-Wan but unfortunately she's using Verizon which she should have been using AT&T which who knows is why her signal is bad what not T-Mobile?

Speaker: not Mint Mobile or no wait back when this was filmed I think you could have still used Singular yeah well she's not using any of those she is not she's Boost Mobile

Speaker: Wait, does that still exist? I don't know. i don't know. Am I dating myself here? Probably. Possibly. but anyway Only 90s kids remember.

Speaker: Yes, the Great Lamp War. was a dark time for humanity. But I would be remiss not to mention that we got our first look at first look at the Maldoloreans in this episode. Technically, they are called Mandalorian Super Commandos TM.

Speaker: The Maldalorians, which for the record look exactly like Mandalorians, except they have helmets with like fake horns to look them make them look more like Zabrak-y, if we're calling that a word. And they're red.

Speaker: Yes, they are red. I mean, it's really cool looking armor. Oh, yeah, really cool. that The Mandalorian Super Commandos are cool. The Mandalorian Super Commandos look really cool.

Speaker: ma as I mean, what one of them is is going to be a regular on the upcoming Maul Shadow Lord. Foreshadowing is a literary device. Exciting.

Speaker: Yes, once again, we have royalty calling out for Kenobi. is happening again. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. And at this point, Kenobi is summoned by the Jedi Masters.

Speaker: Kiari Mundi declaring it an internal Mandalorian matter is just another in a string of retroactively making him always wrong. Kiari Mundi cannot argue wrong about many things, except for one thing, which we'll get to Is the attack on the Wookiees?

Speaker: Yes. But no, you'd think with a head that big, he'd at least be like a little bit smarter, but no dice. And like I know apparently he was a little cooler in some Legends content, but still not enough to save him.

Speaker: He's never been cool. Always a meme and two brains. Hey, tell that to his five wives. Yeah, that's exactly what I was about to say. That's not true at all. He's the Jedi Master that canonically fucks.

Speaker: Captain America, fuck!

Speaker: Good. good Good. Thank you, Daryl. You're welcome. You're welcome. perfect were we' work' Worth it to dunk on me for that. dude good yeah Sorry, dar you had more things that you were going to say, but... Well, and and it was leading up to that joke, but you teed me up early.

Speaker: it was right there. I'm sorry. what What I was going to say is that when Phantom Menace was coming out and Dark Horse launched a prequel era comic, He headlined it initially, and he was a pretty decent character, including having multiple wives and an active personal life. Is that what we're calling it?

Speaker: Yes, that is exactly what we're calling it. And Dark Horse and the story group went out of their way to provide a reason to retain that, even after Attack of the Clones gave us that no attachment thing, all of which was leading up to Captain America! ah go Beautiful.

Speaker: I was about to ask you to play the clip again, so perfect. Warp it, again, like but of that so his most recognizable could be on that is he's he's wrong about a great many things different for one thing.

Speaker: well Well, that and and he has a canonical birthday. yeah, that too. yeah On a trading card. It is on a trading card, you're correct. Respect the little place but that trading card.

Speaker: okay Everyone talks about the joint attack on the Wookiees, but not enough people talk about the fact that he is a Jedi Master that canonically fucks. Like a lot. Captain America! He also has two brains.

Speaker: Oh yeah, that too. he he has it was wax fucking Which makes it being wrong even even more hilarious. Wait, wait wait he has two what, Nick? Two brains. Oh, brains.

Speaker: Brains. Oh. hi I thought we were still on the subject of... Captain America! I heard something else, Daryl, don't worry. ah don't worry Don't worry, Lauren. This is why you don't we don't have to watch... You've you've watched the only only fun part, one of the funniest parts of Seahulk now. So you don't have to watch Seahulk now.

Speaker: All right. Seahulk was good. Yeah, but we're doing a... ah getting him ready for ah for... getting her ready for Avengers Tuesday. Yes. Going over all the Marvel movies that I missed over the years.

Speaker: Oh, so Captain America fucking will return in Doomsday? Apparently. Maybe. He does have a baby. Yeah. it Oh no, if only I was going to splice the two clips together. Mm-hmm. In any case, at this point, it's quite clear that if Obi-Wan is going to save the former queen, he must go alone.

Speaker: And Obi-Wan arrives to Mandalore in the twilight, and honestly, I nearly forgot about that ship. I thought it had been lost somewhere, somehow.

Speaker: it's it's it But it's important, because that's the only way they explain how up how Luke's Luke's uncle Owen says that, Oh, your, your father flew a spice trader.

Speaker: or, you know, or you know Owen was just lying to keep Luke away from all of that. Would that lies to Luke Skywalker? Who would do such a thing? you think George Lucas what wouldn't include this entire thing just to justify one thing that he he wrote in a movie 40 years ago?

Speaker: i mean, that's how we have you know everyone going out of their way to make sure that Anakin never sees Grievous. Exactly. Including think a giant crystal between them. Mm-hmm. But yes, once Obi-Wan touches down, he lures a Death Watch into the ship to take his armor, episode four style.

Speaker: Yay, Lauren made a Star Wars reference! I did it, I made a reference. Good job, Lauren, I'm proud! What a and All we had to do was sew the holiday special, and now it's it's complete. Your transformation is complete. Oh, no. I grew up so fast.

Speaker: And Satine says to contact her sister for help. She'll send reinforcements. And like, personally, I call bullshit on Obi's surprise here because there is no way in all that time in the run together he had no clue that Satine had a sister, much less who that sister was.

Speaker: Unless this is just more plausible deniability on the quirky situation. Okay, can I talk about that? Yeah, whatever, too late. How should I know whose kid he is when I didn't even know she had a sister? Oh no, quirky is definitely not the sister's kid. There's no way. Not that I would know that or anything since I don't know who her sister is and didn't know until just now. um The Force told me, that's why I know. Don't worry about it, it's fine. So yes, they're they're trying to... I have i have so i have some more some more quirky stuff later on.

Speaker: Is that what Obi-Wan said to Satine when... Never mind. Oh no. We'll get there. Yes, Obi-Wan and Satine, they're trying to escape, but the ship is barely functional. It is quite difficult to escape with.

Speaker: it Barely functional. Boom goes the Twilight. Integrally dysfunctional. Anakin had just finished paying it off, too. i guess that's why I won't sparkle no more.

Speaker: But no, that ship is a cockroach. It's fine. yeah, it did. And I love that Obi-Wan has that little... The Twilight will return it Avengers Tuesday.

Speaker: Yeah, that was a cockroach. But no, I love that Obi-Wan has that little piece of hair that the animators always have fall in front of his face every time he gets the shit kicked out of him because only Obi-Wan fucking Kenobi would get like specially animated hair just for injury. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. this point... He's just going animate that little tiny bit of hair on his forehead. Yes. And he gets to you every time. And now we have...

Speaker: a Maul confrontation. He attempts to, well, he tries to tempt Obi-Wan to the dark side, saying that he wants him to suffer. Yep, and Maul and Savage capture Obi-Wan and Satine, and this next clip is longish for us, but you know what? There was not a a single second of this that I could edit out.

Speaker: ...likeness shared by you and your Duchess. You should have chosen dark side, Master Jedi. Your emotions betray you.

Speaker: Your fear. And yes, your anger. Let your anger deepen your hatred. Don't listen to him, Obi.

Speaker: Quiet. You can kill me, but you will never destroy me. It takes strength to resist a dark side. Only the weak embrace it. that is more powerful than you know.

Speaker: And those who oppose it are more powerful than you'll ever be. I know where you're from. I've been to your village. I know the decision to join the dark side wasn't yours.

Speaker: The Nightsisters made it for you. Silence! You think you know me? It was I who languished for years, thinking of nothing but you. Nothing but this moment.

Speaker: And now, perfect tool for my vengeance is in front of us. I never planned on killing you. Share my pain, Kenobi.

Speaker: Sister!

Speaker: I've loved you always.

Speaker: always will. I'm not crying. You're crying. Cue Betsy. Cue Betsy.

Speaker: Sorry, the way I had to actually mute myself in the podcast for the duration of that clip. Oh my god, guys, where are the fuck do I even start? Like, how do I translate the screaming that is happening internally and just a moment ago was happening externally into thoughts? because just Do you need to scream do you just need to let out a primal scream?

Speaker: Or would that wake up your neighbors? I muted myself, so you didn't have to hear it. Okay. Because it was going to interrupt the clip. Okay, I'm just just gonna go kind of play by play here. Like, first things first. So Maul is not pulling any metaphorical punches and he is laying Obi-Wan's character flaws bare before the Force in everyone. Like, Obi-Wan's reliance on duty and the Jedi and a protocol in favor of action stop him from actually, you know, acting. And like, he frames it to himself as coming from this moral high ground where he's choosing light and doing the right thing. But Maul 100% clocks the reality when he mentions fear because I think a good half of Obi-Wan's motivation

Speaker: comes from that because like in his head he's still just this scared padawan who made the wrong choices and in his own mind at least watch his master die because of it because you know Obi-Wan has never freed when a second stopped blaming himself for Qui-Gon's death which also conveniently helps him further blame himself for all of Anakin's choices too gotta love how that works out and then we're also kind of breezing past one of my favorite things from the Phantom Menace that I really wish got talked about more Obi-Wan totally used the dark side to fight Maul. No questions there.

Speaker: like we just this just It's a thing that happened on screen. and You cannot convince me any differently. like Ultimately Obi-Wan did choose the light, but I feel like Maul could have pushed a hell of a lot harder here on how actually at that point Obi-Wan did in fact briefly choose the dark and how he used it to hold his own in battle and how without it he probably would have died just like his master.

Speaker: but anyway, moving on. Because now I'm busy screaming about Obi-Wan trying to empathize with Maul. And like, what gets me is that in another life under different circumstances, this would have worked. Like every single one of Maul's actions post bisection have been in the service of one thing. Being seen.

Speaker: Like genuinely, that's all he wants. For his existence, his experiences, and his pain to be seen and understood. For suffering to be known by the others around him because he spent so long going through it alone. All he wants is for his pain to just be acknowledged.

Speaker: Like, I think for Maul, it's a misguided attempt to make what happened to him mean something. Or, like, to give it some sort of meaning. Because when he was alone, you know, except for his people-eating snake friend, but he doesn't seem to count morally, so I won't either for this exercise, there was no one to witness or, like, understand what happened to him or what he was going through.

Speaker: Like, the, you know like, the whole thing about, like, the tree in the forest and of no one's around here at all. So it's like without making his pain known, it's almost like it never happened because the only one who saw it was himself.

Speaker: And if his pain never happened, then how could it mean anything? Because I think the idea that his suffering just happened, that there was no greater purpose or meaning and he just ended up in a shitty situation without his legs because of other people's choices and just the sheer randomness of the universe is more painful than the event itself. Yeah. It's not just about what he went through, but what he went through being in service of something greater or like somehow making him greater.

Speaker: But instead, here comes Obi-Wan trying to empathize and in the process, like rip up this whole idea of purpose Maul's built his existence on. He's telling Maul that none of this was his decision and that he was at the mercy of others making choices for him and about him and just using him as a tool. And honestly, I think that's the worst possible thing anyone could say to Maul, not least because it's the truth.

Speaker: i think Maul is painfully aware that underneath everything, that so much of his existence is only due to what others have done to him, and to hear it just plainly laid out like that by his greatest enemy is a bridge too far. Because now Maul's own lack of agency is out the open where everyone can see it.

Speaker: And then Maul just throws everything to the side and says out loud, we've all known this entire time. He wants Obi-Wan to feel his pain. And score one for Maul, he figured out how to accomplish that because no physical torture anyone could inflict would ever compare to the mental torture Obi-Wan will inflict on himself believing he failed someone he loves again.

Speaker: Emphasis on again. And it is, you are brilliantly, you brilliantly analyze it, and especially the the the way that Maul immediately the pivots from the attempt that Obi-Wan's trying to to empathize with him to striking down Satine because it's also he's doing that in front of his apprentice, his brother, someone he's trying to show the strength of.

Speaker: somebody he's trying to keep from making his same mistakes. By trying to reclaim strength and power and Obi-Wan's just basically saying like, you're you're still a pawn, you will always be a pawn until you break free of that. And Maul's just in the opinion is like, like i will I'll show you who's the pawn, I will kill the one you care about the most and assert a strength through violence for the dark side.

Speaker: To define himself with rage. So much of this has been part of like this narrative he's been building of him like you know living through this pain and overcoming it and becoming stronger and regaining power and you know putting all of his enemies in their place and showing Kenobi who like the real powerful one is. And here comes Kenobi just like turning all of that on its head and throwing it out the window. And that's probably the worst thing that he could have done in that situation because nothing is going to hit him all the way.

Speaker: Especially in front of Cervas who is like looking up to Maul and trying to to help him break together to trying to break a cycle. And the worst part is that Obi-Wan was trying to be nice when he did it.

Speaker: It wasn't sassy. It wasn't him trying to provoke or even harm No, he was trying to establish a genuine connection and be like, hey, I see you and I understand what you went through. But in doing so, he basically destroyed Maul's entire self sense of self in one go. And that can't happen because then that means none of this meant anything the entire fucking time.

Speaker: So then he he lashes out with violence. And once again, Obi-Wan's left holding someone he cares about in the exact same way he held his master. Mm hmm. and Ciri, and Sarasi, and a whole lot of other people.

Speaker: There's actually a really, really long list, and a lot of them are blonde. he has a type. He very much has a type. It's mouthy blondes. but One could even argue that Anakin is on that list.

Speaker: And then, speaking of Maul still being a pawn, we then cut to a brief cryptic interlude of Palpatine telling Masamita to prepare his ship.

Speaker: Hmm. What is what is what is kind kindly old Chancellor Palpatine up to? Is he going to go visit a children's orphanage? Is he going to open up a new yeah a new Starbucks?

Speaker: Who knows? He's going to open a new space box. oh Although... He's taking the orphans out for, I don't know, a pizza party at Lil' Tiver's.

Speaker: yeah Question. Question. yes given that sadie sadie Given that Katie Sackhoff voices Bo-Katan, is Star Wars Starbucks mascot Bo-Katan?

Speaker: Yes. Yes. yes yes Headcanon accepted. wait But does it include the mermaid tail? Yes or no? ah it's it's ah It's her instead of a mermaid tail, it's her holding her two twin blaster pistols.

Speaker: Ah, yes, of course. Okay. Worst for me. And Lauren is is now saying another reference that I don't get. ah Katie Sackhoff on the ah Battlestar Galactica reboot played the new version of Starbuck.

Speaker: Oh, okay. Hence why a character... voiced by Katie Sackhoff, would be the mascot for Starbucks. Well, okay. And also why it's significant that this piece of Mr. Mark.

Speaker: And Starbucks was ah one of the roommates in Moby Dick. And we're not sure how that relates to Starbucks, but they haven't related how any of that relates to Starbucks.

Speaker: They don't have all relates to Battlestar Galactica, but that's a whole other discussion. Yeah. Speaking, though, of Bo-Katan, she rescues Obi-Wan. And I love that you could just see Obi-Wan's instant compartmentalization of events because he's like, oh, look, a goal? Cool, great. No time to think about emotions.

Speaker: I'm not crying, you're crying. Now, just a small aside here. I've always liked Obi-Wan in the Mandalorian armor. It's a cool look and it's it's an effective kit.

Speaker: I just, I really, really like it. Obi-Wan with his lightsaber in Mandalorian armor with a jet pack. he looks He looks good. He looks good in art. When they came back with him in the sort of like Jedi commander armor, it was like, he looks like a knight.

Speaker: Obi-Wan looking like a knight. Obi-Wan looking, Obi-Wan in armor always works because like, That's a knight. Also, like, everyone looks hot in Mandalorian armor. Like, can we just establish that?

Speaker: The Mandalorian armor stays off stays on in bed. Yeah, of course it does. We can all agree we can all agree of that. You work around it. Well, I mean, you know, we know that as of the Mandalorian, that probably kind of is how it works. Yeah.

Speaker: At least for, you know... At least the mask stays on. A shuttle o lands on Mandalore to the Imperial March and Sidious gets off of the shuttle.

Speaker: this is and This is significant because this is Darth Sidious, a brand new character in case you didn't know about that lore. We've seen him before. A brand new character. Okay.

Speaker: We've seen him before in Clone Wars. We haven't seen him in person, I don't think. No. We've seen him in holograms, where this is his first...

Speaker: on-screen appearance of this brand new character, mysterious figure. and Who could he possibly be? be Bo-Katan's rebels and Obi-Wan see a huge battle raging, and Bo-Katan says, Maul must really want you dead. and oh you have no idea.

Speaker: I was going to mention what you're about to say, Betsy, but you you you put it very succinctly about how, like, so up awesome this visual is. Yeah, no, because like this is the downside of a podcast being an auditory medium because I don't know how to communicate just how effective the visuals on this scene are. It's like there's, you know, this little small scale battle happening. It's just a few players. It's up close and personal. Like it's almost quiet.

Speaker: And then like, you know, the big blast doors open. You see Obi-Wan kind of squinting into the light to try and get a look at what's happening on the other side. And it's just it's just hell full on. like that's the only one to see in the trailers for the season but even then it was just like a quick glimpse like the full thing is like Yeah, no, like it's just really powerful. Like the only way i can describe it, it literally is just like doors opening onto hell. It's like this is one of those scenes that has genuinely stayed with me for however many years since it aired.

Speaker: And I think about it a lot. Like it's just a perfect microcosm of what's going on with Obi-Wan. Like he's focusing on this battle right in front of him, the here and now, but inside this is actual war. Like the hell that he will once again refuse to contend with because it's easier to just close the blast doors on things he doesn't want to deal with.

Speaker: like Even Bo's little quip is so good because like it's a perfect mirror to how Obi-Wan himself deals with or you know really doesn't deal with these things and how he uses like these quips and sarcasm to distance himself from the actual pain he doesn't want to acknowledge. like it's just It's so good. And also, this is...

Speaker: What Duchess Satine was talking about was just like, I brought Mandalore into age of peace away from its archaic ancient wars. These were the wars that were happening.

Speaker: This was constant. This is why the entire of Mandalore is a barren desert wasteland. Why they literally live in a bubble. Because this was happening all the time.

Speaker: this This microcosmic of a car conflict is like, they reintroduced the warrior culture and guess what? Now it is, they're just, they are the example of like, oh, what does a warrior culture do when it's not conquering the stars? It fights each other in the most spectacular, gruesome, bombastic fight possible.

Speaker: what What happens when you turn a a culture back into a collection of Karen Travis tropes. Yes.

Speaker: I'm sorry. Did I say that out loud? It's okay. We didn't spend hours talking about what they're eating for dinner. And how much, and about 75% that is like implying how much we want to have sex with Boba Fett.

Speaker: Well, talking about what they're having for dinner. Exactly. I don't know why she spent so much time talking about their food. Like this is like a Brian Jock novel. We're not reading Redwall here, dude. Oh, yeah, Redwall.

Speaker: So Sidious enters the throne room to Maul, quoting Vader in the original movie. you know he i I sense a presence I've not felt since.

Speaker: oh and What sells it for me, again, Sam Witwer is voicing Maul throughout this, and you mentioned it earlier, Lauren, you're not used to Maul. speaking this much.

Speaker: Because we didn't have Scythe before. But the moment that he said, like the the quiver in his voice, he said, Master? Yes. Maul immediately immediately reverts to apprentice mode.

Speaker: But Sidious kind of sees right through it. Okay, but here's the thing. You said Sidious sees through his lies, but is it lies? Because I don't think it is.

Speaker: What I saw, and like, you know, you can disagree with me here, but what I saw looked like textbook fawning behavior. Like, Maul wasn't lying, or at least not outright. He was falling back on old behavior out of self-preservation.

Speaker: Like I've talked a lot about this episode about Maul's relationship with his pain and his past abuse at Sidious' hand and how that's a huge part of it. But what I'm seeing here is a situation where Maul doesn't even try to establish control because he doesn't believe he has any.

Speaker: Because he's being forced back into a situation where he had none. Like for years he had no way to fight back and more or less had it drilled into his head that fighting wasn't even an option. So the only way to survive was to do what he's doing here. You know, to kneel, to act like a good apprentice. To Fawn.

Speaker: And there's also the fact that that even when weep we first met Maul back in the in the previous season's finale, he said, I was apprenticed to the most powerful being in the galaxy.

Speaker: Even with him trying to reestablish himself, he always was starting with like the fact that there's someone bigger than me. That's what happens when you're subservient to an abuser for so long. you know It's hard to distance yourself and detach from that mindset. what What I see as the... I partly use the term lies because that's what Sidious says.

Speaker: oh that that's also part of the abusive language. Yes, but also I i see it as Maul is trying to buy himself time because he he's building up his own power network.

Speaker: that he already has. So he's buying time. Oh yeah, you, you, you take me back. up did You did take me back. Take me back. Daddy. I totally don't have this whole, this whole syndicate over here that as soon as I can, I'm going to, I'm going to take control of and kill you and, and all that good stuff.

Speaker: That's part of where the fawning comes in though, because that is also like part of why he would do that. It's self-preservation. Yeah. The only downside is that at the end, he would you know what he would say is buying time ends up not being buying time at all.

Speaker: Because that's usually how that plays out. But I digress. That's a whole whole conversation I could get into. But the major part of this is that Sidious is terrified. He effortlessly takes our Marlio brothers and just flings them against a wall. We'll get there.

Speaker: We're getting there. But that's the start. We'll get there because because before we we see how he handles them, we get, you know, final little revelation here.

Speaker: so back to your Republic and tell them what has happened. That would likely lead to a Republic invasion of Mandalore. Yes, and Maul will die. But Mandalore will survive. We always survive.

Speaker: Now go.

Speaker: You're Satine's sister, aren't you?

Speaker: I'm so sorry.

Speaker: who It's also a mirror of what he says to Padme in Revenge of the Sith, and also one of my favorite out-of-context Star Wars quotes, where when they're meeting at Padme's quarters, he says, Anakin's the father, isn't he?

Speaker: I'm so sorry. And out of context? Yeah. but not context I mean, granted, I think even in context, that's part of it, but... I love these little things.

Speaker: It's like poetry. It rhymes. Again, it's like poetry. It's not if they rhyme. Okay, so here's what what you were getting to earlier, Betsy. It's time to do something that Nick hates. It's time to do math. Uh-oh. It's math time.

Speaker: Okay, so... Nick, do you need a safe word? No. Nick just has to sit back and take it. Oh, wow. Okay. Nick has to sit back and take the math.

Speaker: So while not specifically established anywhere on screen or anything, Bo-Katan is said by Dave Filoni to be somewhere between 18 to 25 during the Clone Wars. And Satine is about 10 to 15 years older than her.

Speaker: Now, Corky is about 15 to 18 the two times that we see him. So Bo-Katan is not old enough to be Corky's mother.

Speaker: Like physically. Right. As of the latest that we've seen any of the family in the Star Wars timeline in The Mandalorian, we have never heard about any other siblings to Satine and Bo-Katan.

Speaker: But we do have a firm age for Obi-Wan. Right. He was 25 in The Phantom Menace, which puts him at 35 to 38 during the Clone Wars. And he and Qui-Gon protected Satine about 15 years before the Clone Wars. So I see possibility plausibility that he wouldn't have known about Bo-Katan.

Speaker: If we presume that Bo-Katan is born roughly, give or take, around the time that he and Qui-Gon were protecting Satine.

Speaker: If she was still baby. Right. So they protected Satine about 15 years before the Clone Wars. And i don't know about any of you, but I do not need any of the 40 calculators that I have for work to do that math. You have 40 calculators? He works for do you think? I've shown you the calculators, Nick. I've shown you the three of them.

Speaker: I don't need any of those to do this math. Oh, I don't either. I've been making jokes about it this whole time. How can you live with yourself with that many calculators? By working in a calculator factory, Nick.

Speaker: Yes. That's literally what he does. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan and Satine have a secret love child. But you're not not saying that either. oh Yeah, but I'm not saying that. Now, for the record, this has never been confirmed in any official source. And there are people out there who can...

Speaker: quite passionately make an argument that there's just at least one more sibling in the family that we don't know about. I call them cobras and seeders. But the math and the drama to be had in what is ultimately a large story of family generations are pretty strong arguments.

Speaker: Also, look at them. Look at them. Just use your eyes. Yes. so Just use your eyes. That's all I have to say. Now, i I am pretty sure that Lucasfilm will never, ever, ever acknowledge this.

Speaker: Well, of course not, because we can't have premarital sex. I mean... Am I wrong? I'm trying to think of if we have any That's why Anakin and Padme got married. Because of those sensibilities.

Speaker: You know I'm right. I'm trying to think... Of any. Well, I mean, if if we go into the extended media, we've we've got unmarried Jedi hooking up back in the High Republic era.

Speaker: And actually we have. um That's like post Disney though. Yes. Yeah, I know. That's what i mean. It's post Disney. This, the whole like no premarital sex was established before then.

Speaker: Gotcha. Gotcha. I see what you're saying now. Yeah. One of the places where Disney actually did get a little progressive. I know, right? It's shocking. We go back Maul and Savage versus Sidious.

Speaker: Yeah! Let's go! Can we get a wicked cool Sith fight? It's so cool! And, I mean, it's just ranging all over the place. Sidious is double fisting lightsabers and fighting off both of them at the same time.

Speaker: And between the two of them. He's terrifying. He's objectively terrifying as a combatant. And now he he even he turns his back to Savage. Because he knows he can.

Speaker: Well, of course he can, because he gives him double lightsaber blades to the gut. And then force throws him away. He does it with a cool, like, double. He just spins his saber and just, like, sprints backwards. after After, like, just making his way, like, it he he looks, he he fights like a demon. He's so scary.

Speaker: And he force throws... I love the whole thing. He force throws Savage away and Maul jumps down ah as Savage dies with spooky Nightsister magic mist bleeding out of him.

Speaker: It's really It's really tragic final lines, okay? It's really sad and tragic and he's like, I wasn't a good enough apprentice. It's like, dude, I'm not to you. i never i know was you. maybe you were an apprentice, but you were a great brother.

Speaker: Maul, just say it. But we can't have nice things. No. but no no Because Sidious has to be like, there can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. and iidious Sidious very handily defeats Maul, who begs for mercy.

Speaker: um effort A friend of mine who's barely interested in Star Wars wanted to watch that arc with me. And it' so like, because he he always thought Darth Maul was cool. And it's like, he he sort of like was like, he he broke Maul. He's like like, yeah, he's Darth Sidious. Darth Maul is like, he's he's a blunt instrument, a at tool, the Sidious.

Speaker: The name says it all. They can break, and like, it doesn't take a whole lot to he's the true dark Lord of the Sith. He defeats Maul. Maul's begging for mercy and Sidious tells him that there is no mercy, but he won't kill him.

Speaker: He has other uses for him as he continues to light Maul up with force lightning. Whereas again, like the it in the canon of, of Star Wars, force lightning is more than just like the actual lightning part. It's also like literally hitting your soul.

Speaker: And that is the end. or is it a I want to bring up the fact that Savage is now dead, and he was the one who consistently broke the rule of two with his presence.

Speaker: Because, you know, originally Dooku got him as his own apprentice when Dooku was already the apprentice, already breaking the whole... rule rule of two scenario.

Speaker: But then whenever he starts working with Maul, he continues working with it. If you envision, even if you envision Maul as like another apprentice, it's just like Savage was always out of place. And at the same time, he was also the one who seemed to reject the ideals of the Sith the most.

Speaker: He always had his goal of rescuing his brother over more, over anything else. And once he actually did that, he was content with just living with his brother at that point. It seems like most Sith get into the dark side with some sort of personal goal in mind, but and they kind of lose track of it. And then the betrayal. apprentice will become the master, must usurp the master.

Speaker: Well, it's a bond in the intent of that. Critically, it seems like any time that somebody gets into the dark side, they come into it with some particular goal, but they lose track of that goal for one reason or another. But Savage never does. The nature of power. in The nature of power, the seduction of it. And again, the rule of two is to be...

Speaker: to the The greatest example of the rule two is described as there's one who embodies power and one who craves it. Yeah, but no, Lauren, I do see what you're saying. And that's really interesting that like Savage didn't come in with any goal besides I want my brother.

Speaker: And he accomplished his goal. Yes. It's not something that got lost along the way. As you mentioned in the beginning, he wanted to be not master and apprentice with Maul. He wanted to be equals with Maul. But Maul only understood the concept of master and apprentice.

Speaker: Or at least Maul was only letting on that that's what he understood. When really the brother that Savage wanted was right next to him all the time, Maul just wouldn't let it show. Oh no, it's so tragic!

Speaker: Throughout the Clone Wars, too... the The Sith rule of two is kind of like the Pirates. Barbossa says about the Pirates Code in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. They're more just guidelines. Honestly, that sort of reflects honestly the Pirates in the beginning, who may not have known about insolence, were more brotherly than than even the Malia brothers. And that they forgave each other for their transgressions.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. And... No, Lauren, I think that's really cool what you brought up about, like... Yeah. Savage being the one that, like, consistently broke the rule of two, but also broke with, like, the tradition of what it is to be part of the Sith. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yep. Yeah, you know, it just, uh, it seems very interesting that we have this character who is a Sith to some degree or another, but is it breaks basically all of the rules always.

Speaker: And, uh, He definitely... he He is the one Sith who actually achieves his goal, technically. Even if he may not know he achieved his goal all the time.

Speaker: And honestly, looking at it, he does help with a staff with with dimensionalizing a lot more characters. ah We learn more about Ventress because becauses of Savaz. We learn more about Maul because of Savaz. We learn more about Dooku even in the sword time we had him with Savaz.

Speaker: There's a... His... And he went through, like, all three of them as, like, dark side characters and their connections as sort of hit their pawns to him. They were supposed to be pawns to him, but, it's like, they ultimately... We got more dimensionality out of them.

Speaker: You know what? Technically, we also saw more... We saw Sidious in person for the first time because of Savage. Yeah, there we go. True. He's connected to all the major darksiders that we...

Speaker: we've yeah we We learned more, but we learned about Mother Towson as well, and these are Darkseid's presence. Strictly speaking, that this was the first time we saw Sidious in person yeah in the Clone Wars. We saw him in person in Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. Well, yeah. yeah but But ah also worth mentioning, too, spoilers those ah other uses and the immediate aftermath of this episode Yeah, they they were never filmed.

Speaker: Unfortunately. Never. never The arc was written and eventually saw the light of day as the comic Darth Maul, Son of Dathomir, which is still considered to be canon, even though it was published before the Disney buyout.

Speaker: I still need to get a copy of that. A physical copy. And I'm sure, too, that Maul will return Avengers Doomsday. Oh, for sure.

Speaker: I hope you'll never get old. Nope. The timing of us talking about this arc is very fortuitous, even if we didn't plan it this way.

Speaker: As the post-Clone Wars series Maul Shadow Lord is going to be premiering on Disney Plus less than two weeks after this episode drops.

Speaker: And it's going to follow Maul continuing to build his criminal syndicate in the early days of the Empire. Oh boy. And Sam Witwer hamming it up in the vocal booth.

Speaker: Oh yes. Sam Witwer is in the vocal booth. Vanessa Marshall is in yeah the the vocal booth. Because Space Mom is back! And...

Speaker: Just this morning, well, she's playing the Muldelorien. Oh, that's correct. But she still stays known to me. Now, also, kind of you just a a little note here. ah This morning, as we record it,

Speaker: record this, I was watching the latest weekly Star Wars Explained Weekend Star Wars video, and they were talking about this, and ah someone asked them about, i can't I can never remember the name of the character, but the Twi'lek Jedi Padawan that Maul killed in one of the comics miniseries. Yeah, oh my gosh, I can't remember her name either, but I know you're talking about... but we yeah worked alongside her, you pretended to work with her, only so that he could get close to her to kill her.

Speaker: And Alex and Molly started talking about, you know, we we know that there is the young Twi'lek Padawan who starts working with him in It may or may not become new Darth Talon.

Speaker: Well, what I was about to say is what they were talking about, everybody is set is equating her with Talon. What if she's more equivalent to that Padawan from the comic? Yeah. And he ends up working with her, betraying her and killing her too. It could.

Speaker: Why not both? I mean, don't get me wrong. I want Darth Talon back just as much as the next person for, you know, different reasons. But i can see i can see I could see how that did that they connect that storyline together into like corrupting her into Darth Talon.

Speaker: But no, I like that. Yeah, either way, I'm excited for both of those. That is this set of episodes. Now, Lauren, you are our test subject. I mean, you are the person experiencing this for the first time. Yeah.

Speaker: I know that. Yeah, I know that this is typically not the kind of story arc that is is your prime interest in Clone Wars. But what do you think of it?

Speaker: Yeah, you know, I'm still just not that into the Mandalorians in general. ah But at the same time, I did like the Malia brothers a lot. I thought that ah bringing together all of the different crime lord stuff, that that scene in particular and seeing all of their attacks is very cool. There were a lot of really great action sequences.

Speaker: in this one. arent Just to show them. Yeah, yeah. they're through Some excellent action overall. And seeing the death of, ah you know, of multiple major characters was ah pretty pretty intense.

Speaker: you've got you got pretty intense at the end there. Yep. The Law List is an episode that I will never forget. I am a little bit disappointed to hear that we're not going to get to follow up on what happens to Maul within this series anyway. Spoilers!

Speaker: spoilers Spoilers! We will get to... Don't make me sick River Song on you. Spoilers. We will see.

Speaker: you Maul will return. Okay. Yes, yes, in Avengers, we talked about this. That is good. yeah Yep. But with that, and any other closing thoughts from any of us?

Speaker: Honestly, again, this is probably up there like with many people's favorite arcs and Again, like it, it just, it, it has a lot of stuff I like. It has like the Mandalorians. has a lot of story, a lot of lore. It, it,

Speaker: Honestly, this the standout is though Maul and Savaz are just like amazing characters. Yeah. we we know Oh, wait, wait. One thing that I think we are remiss in not acknowledging and that it was at the beginning of the episode, The Lawless, ah that it was in honor of Ian Abercrombie.

Speaker: Yes, true. I mentioned that when we when we were watching it. ah did the This was the last voice acting of him as Palpatine Sidious and Well, he did an amazing job.

Speaker: Yes, he did. And you you have heard and or seen the work, Lauren, of the two voice actors who stepped in to voice Palpatine going forward. Yeah. The the first, of course, is um Ian McDiarmid, the Emperor. action yeah The original scenery chewer.

Speaker: Yes. The other is Sam Witwer, the voice of Maul. Ah, yes. Which he he tells a great story that after he started occasionally voicing Palpatine, he met Ian McDiarmid either at Lucasfilm or a convention or something. and i thought it was like, interested that it was either at the Lucasfilm or Skywalker events, I believe.

Speaker: Yeah, i don't I don't remember. But he was introducing himself to Ian McDiarmid and Ian McDiarmid is like, and and who are you? And he's like, I'm you when they can't afford you.

Speaker: yeah Beautiful. yup ah So if there's no other thoughts, last thoughts, then um i just want to, I just want to thank everyone for joining us for casual nerdity clone watch again. ah Be sure to follow us on socials, Facebook, Instagram threads and, and Twitter slash X where we're casual nerdity and blue sky where we are casual nerdity.com. And you can also help the podcast get a larger reach by giving us a hopefully good review on your podcast platform of choice. Or if you're listening through YouTube, do all of those cliched YouTube things of liking, subscribing, getting notifications. We want all of those algorithms getting more ears on the show. And you want a rhythm,

Speaker: Feed the algorithm. And if you want to help us you know keep the proverbial lights on, you'll pay for domains and production and all of that. ah You can buy a t-shirt from our merch store at store.casualnerdity.com.

Speaker: They're comfy. right So thanks again for joining us. We hope that you will join us again next time. And until then, take care of yourselves and take care of one another. And we will see you later.

Speaker: Bye. goodby Bye. This has been casual nerdity. We hope you've enjoyed your time with us and look forward to having you back.