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The Meta-Text of the Scream Franchise
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In this episode, Daryl & Nick dive into the Scream franchise’s signature meta storytelling — characters who know the rules, stories that comment on themselves, and the ripple effect that had across horror, TV, and film. How did Scream change the way stories talk to their audience?
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Transcript
Introduction to Casual Nerdity Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Casual Nerdity is a podcast celebrating and discussing the pop culture that we love. Movies, TVs, comics, books, games, you name it. Our aim is to talk about the good, what worked, and yeah, sometimes what didn't.
00:00:22
Speaker
All with an eye towards building up, not tearing down. Thanks for joining us.
00:00:32
Speaker
Welcome back to Casual Nerdity, everybody.
Co-host Absence Due to Daylight Saving Time
00:00:35
Speaker
And as always, I'm Daryl. And I'm Nick. And unfortunately, we don't have Lauren today. Yep, it's just the two of us, because scheduling for everybody for this episode has been a nightmare, or for what we had planned to do for this episode, I should say, has been a nightmare, and it totally wasn't helped by the shift to daylight saving time yesterday. That's true.
00:01:01
Speaker
My alarm went off this morning, and I fell asleep for another 45 minutes. Sort of the same thing with me. do Do be aware that like we the next one is going to be a bit of a doozy of an episode, so it's worth the wait.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yes. But since Lauren and Betsy weren't available to continue Clone Watch, I thought, you know, you and I are fans of not just movies, but how they're constructed.
Deep Dive into the Scream Franchise
00:01:29
Speaker
And just last week, I saw the latest entry in a franchise that deconstructed and redefined an entire genre. So, Nick, I just have one question for you.
00:01:46
Speaker
What's your favorite scary movie? Oh, Chances of Time are currently Train to Busan. Certified modern zombie classic.
00:01:57
Speaker
Now, Daryl, what's your favorite Scooby-Doo movie? Do you like Scooby movies?
00:02:05
Speaker
i have Some of them. Some of them, not so much.
Impact of Metatextual Elements in Scream
00:02:12
Speaker
But the this isn't going to be a blow-by-blow review of Scream 7 or even of the franchise as a whole.
00:02:20
Speaker
But more like we're going to be looking at the different metatextual devices used by the franchise and the impact that they've had on slasher movies specifically, but a lot of contemporary media as a whole. Yeah, this does come with a bit of us there will be spoilers.
00:02:44
Speaker
Yes. Spoilers. So if you have any care about, especially Scream 7, but if you don't know some of the spoilers, sort at least Scream 1, where have you been for the past decade?
00:02:57
Speaker
Decade? 30 years, Nick. that That's a plot point in Scream 7. And I didn't want to make the audience feel old.
00:03:09
Speaker
But what to what I will do, you before I get into any first spoiler of Scream 7, because I have seen it, you have not, which I actually think is going to be kind of interesting, because since we're not doing a blow-by-blow review of the movie or plot reconstruction, your plot summary...
00:03:35
Speaker
We're just going to be talking about you know the meta-textual elements. So it's going to be kind of interesting because I will discuss, OK, they used this element this way, and you're going to be reacting completely to that without having the the movie element of it involved. So you're going to be responding just to the idea and not necessarily the execution.
00:04:02
Speaker
when it comes to Scream 7. This would make a lot more sense as we discuss Scream as a franchise and its place in, it has a unique spot in the concept of its own genre.
00:04:16
Speaker
Right. And before I get it, as I was starting to say, before I get into any direct spoilers of Scream 7, I will you let River Song let all of you know that spoilers are coming again.
Scream's Influence on Slasher Genre
00:04:31
Speaker
I think the the best place to start is the beginning and how the first Scream movie set up a template for its pre-credits.
00:04:45
Speaker
but Let's be real. it Let's be honest. It's the pre-credits kill. ahh two to kind of set the tone for the story that you're about to see. It kind of gives you a hint as to the the meta elements that are going to be used in that particular movie.
00:05:07
Speaker
And we we start off the very first one, the the original Scream, 1996.
00:05:15
Speaker
Drew Barrymore was front and center in the marketing process. of you the first Scream movie. She was one of the two biggest names associated with the movie.
00:05:27
Speaker
It was her and Courtney Cox. They were the two A-list stars. And they they learned those spots. it's like This is like the quote-unquote heyday of when they were starting off.
00:05:43
Speaker
We start with Drew Barrymore. you as teenage girl who is getting ready.
00:05:53
Speaker
you know She's waiting for her boyfriend to show up. She's home alone. She's popping some popcorn, and they're going to watch a movie, and she gets a phone call asking you know that that iconic question. What's your favorite scary movie?
00:06:10
Speaker
Also, the the the popcorn is popping in that classic You know when you see it the popping it on the... but The jiffy pop. Yeah. That phone call quickly goes dark.
00:06:24
Speaker
And her boyfriend is revealed to be tied up in the and on the back porch where she can see from inside. The caller is terrorizing her.
00:06:36
Speaker
Can you clearly see her? Yes. Can clearly see her. And the boyfriend gets killed... She runs out the front door trying to run down the street to get some help and is killed.
00:06:54
Speaker
By the iconic ghost face killer. Yes. But one of the also the major parts of this is also one of the most important lines of that phone call is.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yes, the classic, do you like scary movie? What's your favorite scary movie? It's implying that this is a world where scary movies exist.
00:07:19
Speaker
It's not implying, it's outright stating because they go down a checklist of movies in that phone call. Most scary movies up to this point usually don't apply that logic.
00:07:33
Speaker
And we're going to see that throughout the first movie, that this is a world where the characters are familiar with classic slasher movies and recognize that these killings are happening basically following the rules of a slasher movie.
00:07:53
Speaker
But that opening kill in the first movie tells us right away this movie is going to deconstruct the the horror movie, the slasher movie, because our A-list star who has been front and center in the marketing, we have killed in the opening five minutes.
00:08:15
Speaker
And have even named a slasher movie as well, breakly which again goes back to the previous point. This is a world where slasher movies are just like in our world.
00:08:28
Speaker
they They exist. And then in the second, in Scream 2, we We extend the metatextual nature of this world even further because it opens in a movie theater on opening night of a slasher movie that is based on the events, the quote unquote real world events that happened in the first movie.
00:08:57
Speaker
Two of the movie goers, again, big name actors, are killed off in the opening moments. That sets a pattern that each of the kills at the beginning of each movie kind of sets the tone for what is what is coming up in that particular movie.
00:09:19
Speaker
There's a good thing, point, this is a good point to sort of set the context of the movie in terms of the quote unquote slasser franchises as a whole.
00:09:30
Speaker
One of my favorite opening kills, as it were, was in Scream 6 because Scream 6 gives us a new setting. Everything to date has been in you know the sleepy little town of Woodsboro, California, except, well, two not every everyone, I guess. Two was in Sydney's college town and three was in Hollywood. Four went back to Woodsboro. Five went back to Woodsboro.
00:09:57
Speaker
But they all had similar vibes to, to to like, classic horror settings. Right. Six takes us to New York City, which immediately, if you want to start making the jokes, that gives you you Jason Takes Manhattan jokes right there.
00:10:15
Speaker
Oh, I see. They did they they did more of Manhattan than Jason did of Manhattan. if you if you know that If you know that movie, you know that that's true. It opens where a woman who's going on an online blind date is texting with the date who doesn't appear to be showing up.
00:10:34
Speaker
And then she leaves in frustration because he's like, well, I'm right here, but I don't see you. And she's like, well, I don't see you. you stop Stop screwing with me.
00:10:46
Speaker
I give up and leaves. At which point, you she gets pursued down a dark alley and killed by ghost face, who then immediately takes his mask off. Because one of the hallmarks of the movies has been the mystery of who is the killer this time.
00:11:06
Speaker
The ghost face killer is the iconic scream villain. But there's multiple ghost face killers. Yes, each movie has its own character.
00:11:18
Speaker
ghost faced killer or killers. But in this, he he takes off his mask immediately in the movie, which puts you off guard. This is again, this is the opening kill. It's the opening kill.
00:11:29
Speaker
it It put me off guard. And then my thought was, oh, oh, are are we flipping the script here? Are instead of trying to figure out who it is,
00:11:43
Speaker
is the story about how do the characters find out and how do they evade it? Are we are we doing kind of an R-rated Columbo here? that's That's literally what I thought. I was like, oh, so we we're kind of we're going in with the flip in the script. I was like, okay, it's a, we the audience knows more than the characters know.
00:12:07
Speaker
He then goes home and is texting with... his his roommate, who it turns out is his partner in these killings, that text conversation starts going really dark, like Ghostface calls do.
00:12:23
Speaker
his His roommate is then dead. And a ghost face comes popping out of another room and kills him. And basically he and his roommate had been played and manipulated by another ghost face.
00:12:39
Speaker
So now we're back to, oh, well, we're back to having to figure out who this is. Okay. We're back to square one, but it was a fun misdirect.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yes, it was a very fun misdirect. Going into the opening of 7... Spoilers. And again, this may sound a little ink disconnected and maybe only really a appeal to Scream fans.
00:13:04
Speaker
Trust me, it's it's worth watching the movie. The movies are are like 90% good. If we go back to the first movie, one of the killers was one of the main characters, Sidney Prescott's friends, Stu Mocker.
00:13:18
Speaker
And the Mocker house became not a constant, but a recurring location. It's similar to to the Myers residence pseudo.
00:13:30
Speaker
it's it's It's equivalent. Stu Mocker's house is where the climax of the first movie took place. And it's where the climax of five took place, which was appropriate because... Five was kind of a five was absolutely a legacy sequel.
00:13:49
Speaker
Which was the entire kind of point of that movie, really. Yeah. It played with the tropes of a legacy sequel. That's what its metanarrative was.
00:14:00
Speaker
And we'll talk more about that in a little bit. oh it's where the climax takes place in five. And so at the beginning of seven, and the more I think about it, even as I'm about to talk about this, I think this has an even greater metatextual meaning than I was originally giving it.
00:14:21
Speaker
Really? Because because we initially discussed when you first even pro proposed this concept earlier, it's like, did you have some ideas? Follow me here. Hear me out.
00:14:32
Speaker
Scream 7 was originally going to be the third part of a trilogy because 5 was a legacy sequel that passed the torch to a new set of characters played by um Melissa Barrera and Jenna Ortega.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yes. Now, depending on... hu Which account you follow, Melissa Barrera either chose not to come back or was fired for Scream 7. We are not here to discuss that whole drama.
00:15:07
Speaker
That's a whole different type of drama, but it it did definitely affect, fairly affected the behind the scenes of 7. For whatever reason, Melissa Barrera did not return for 7.
00:15:20
Speaker
Jenna Ortega also did not return for Seven. For reasons that may or may not have related to the aforementioned drama. And so Seven had to pivot. It was going to be the third part of a trilogy.
00:15:33
Speaker
Which again, would have followed a classic legacy sequel series, sort of what they were trying to do. But when your lead characters...
00:15:43
Speaker
aren't in it anymore, you have to pivot. So follow me here. Here's here's the opening kill of of Scream 7. One more time. Spoilers.
00:15:55
Speaker
Takes place at the Mocker House. Yes. which Which has become a a tourist destination. it is filled with It is filled with memorabilia from the Stab movies, the in-universe movies that began based on the events of the first movie and have since gone on to tell their own fictionalized stories.
00:16:20
Speaker
Basically mocking the idea that Stab both aping off of the fact that some ah classic horror slasher movies had some like very loose spaces on reality, but also would then say that they were based on a true story, such as like Texas Tank Chainsaw, and also ape off the fact that stories would then continue on successfully, even though they weren't necessarily made to be s sequelized. Right.
00:16:48
Speaker
It's got... like tape outlines of Billy and Stu's bodies from where they were in the first movie and where the killers from five were killed. And it's got little, it's got memorabilia all over the place from the movies and the actual killings in Woodsboro, all of this edit. And it's rented out kind of as a tourist attraction, B and B.
00:17:18
Speaker
oh, pets that's actually really fascinating and also kind of dark, but also I can kind of see that that that fits for the franchise. And so it opens with this couple that have rented it because the the guy is a huge fan of the Stab movies and the real life events.
00:17:41
Speaker
Right? And as he pulls up, part of part of the meta-narrative, and we'll we'll go into this particular meta-plotline momentarily, listening to a a podcast touting the Stu Lives theory.
00:17:57
Speaker
You can clearly hear it on his car radio as they're pulling
Scream 7: Opening Scene and Spoilers
00:18:00
Speaker
up. And she's not into it, right? She's like, I came along because I thought you, because I knew that you would like it, but I don't really like it. you they They get a phone call and it's a half-hearted, do you like scary movies? you know I'm going to give you three trivia questions, and if you don't answer them, I'm going to kill you. ha And they're all guineas. Like if some sort of like a half-hearted like kid was...
00:18:31
Speaker
or teen was like and asked like you gotta do this like scary voice at like a haunted yes that's awesome it's similar to but not the same as the classic ghost face voice and it like i say it's half-hearted it's it's clearly part of the shtick for running the airbnb They're all gimmies. They answer them. He's like, oh, you were lucky. i don't have to kill you.
00:19:01
Speaker
Enjoy your stay. You know, that kind of thing. And she gets a phone call while he's in the bathroom. It's the ghost face voice. It's doing the normal ghost face things.
00:19:13
Speaker
She's convinced that it's him trying to convince her to stay and get her into the into the stay for the weekend. there's There's a ghost face animatronic in the front room that At the beginning, it's a jump scare, but then they reveal that it's an animatronic with motion tracking. They pull the mask off and like, wow, you this is really expensive. oh It's really cool.
00:19:36
Speaker
And while they've been in other rooms, it's been replaced by a real ghost face. Surprise! Right? otherents That's pretty neat. That actually sounds pretty cool.
00:19:49
Speaker
who Who proceeds to kill them and... burns down the house and walks out. Okay, that's, again, like, you you mentioned that, and that's always been a choice that I've been, like, pondering over, in terms of, like,
00:20:03
Speaker
The meta narrative? Well, now that I think about it, at first I'm like, okay, this is playing into the meta narrative and the marketing and storyline of Seven is built around the fan theory of Stu still being alive after the first movie. And this plays into that, you know,
00:20:28
Speaker
the the whole apparent motivation from the marketing campaign is Stu is out for revenge and to burn down the past and anything in his way. So yeah that this fits for buying into that, for feeding into that, right?
00:20:43
Speaker
but it's But it occurs to me, it's also a metatextual way of saying we had to burn down our plans for this movie and go off in a different direction.
00:20:58
Speaker
That is good. And also, again i again, I haven't seen the movie, so I'm only guessing on plot points, and I don't know how many plot points will turn up in this minute of discussion.
00:21:10
Speaker
But the idea of burning down the original estate is like burning down Michael's house in Halloween. it's you You can't really do that. In the Halloween Legacy sequels, the, oh, what are their names?
00:21:27
Speaker
that Big something and little something. i can't remember their names. but i And I loved those characters, what little time that they were. i i loved them.
00:21:40
Speaker
But they had bought the Myers house and they had renovated the my Myers house and it was beautiful. And Michael came back and and tarnished it all. Michael came back and killed them.
00:21:53
Speaker
Here in the opening of this movie that had to be a complete rewrite and redirect when we couldn't really finish out the trilogy that we had done parts one and two of, here this is us burning down what what we had before.
00:22:16
Speaker
And I can see that. i got And this may sound like, oh, <unk>re we're reaching for the rafters here. It's like, that's kind of the point of the movies. They're actually way smarter than i have any right to be in terms of their storytelling and what they're... Again, like i the question I asked you is like, is scream Scream a horror comedy or a straight horror movie?
00:22:42
Speaker
Yes. That's the question. That's the answer. Yeah, that's the answer. Yes. It is both at any given time. what at What I appreciated about Seven is that, and again, we we're not doing a ah full review of Seven. We're going to be talking about the meta of the whole franchise, but as long as we're on the subject of Seven right now, it very quickly dove into some of the tropes that you would expect from a horror movie and a Scream movie.
00:23:15
Speaker
But it also did things in a in a smart way. But when I say it it dove into some of the tropes, ah of the new cast of characters that are introduced in it, I would say that probably the highest profile is McKenna Grace from yeah Young Sheldon and the two most recent Ghostbusters movies and plenty of other things.
00:23:41
Speaker
Oh yeah, but that definitely, she was one of the of of the, of the newbies, definitely. Of newbies, she is definitely the highest profile.
00:23:54
Speaker
Yeah. Which normally would put her, based on the tropes we've had put her on the chopping block. oh Absolutely. Absolutely. After you get past the the opening kills in the Mocker House, she's the second person to be killed.
00:24:11
Speaker
ah She's the second person to be killed in the high school theater. I called that one. I i saw the trailer. and that I only saw all the first trailer. I was like, she's going to be either first or second kill.
00:24:25
Speaker
she Well, i and when I say second kill, the first kill happens like a minute before. Oh. She she and the first kill happen in the same scene.
00:24:38
Speaker
She's in like three scenes of the movie. Oh. yeah that's that's That's a quicker kill success than the movies usually do. She's in like three scenes because she is a school friend of Sidney Prescott's daughter.
00:24:54
Speaker
Yeah. And they're all, both of them and another friend of of theirs. ah Basically, every teenage character that is introduced in the movie, with the exception of Sydney's daughter's boyfriend. Oh, and here's another thing. Not necessarily metanarrative, but it it does play a pot plot point.
00:25:22
Speaker
Sydney's daughter is named Tatum. Oh. After her best friend in the first movie who was killed. Yeah. And that this is a this is a plot point for the movie in that other people say to her and she thinks to her of herself as a a victim because Sydney is protective of her kids because of everything that she went through.
00:25:52
Speaker
so understandably so. She's like, you won't talk to me about your past. You named me after a girl who had her head crushed in a garage door.
00:26:03
Speaker
You see me as a victim. And there's definitely throughout the movie friction between Sidney and Tatum. But by the end of the movie, you after everything is all said and done, you know the the killers have been unmasked and have been taken care of.
00:26:22
Speaker
Sydney and Tatum are sitting on the front porch and Sydney says, Tatum was my best friend. I knew her since elementary school. She was this and she always spoke her mind and she was strong and she was this. And that's why I named you after her.
00:26:39
Speaker
Oh, that's that's really cool. I wanted all of those things for you, so I named you after her. Oh, the fan of the franchise. Oh, that's really good. a I like that. I like that.
00:26:53
Speaker
Oh, it it was it was great. it was It was a nice little moment. they They're at play rehearsal, and the director is a red herring jackass. which is that There's always, that that's another one of the tropes.
00:27:07
Speaker
Who, you know, is, know, tells Tatum, like, you know, your your entire role, it looks like they're doing a production of Peter Pan or something. They never quite said. that's ah that's That's actually disappointing because, like, plays and stories are always intriguing, whether, to see whether, how they connect or how they disconnect.
00:27:30
Speaker
I don't think they wanted to say specifically what they were doing a production of. ah McKenna Grace's character is, she's in kind of a fairy costume with wings and is in a flight harness.
00:27:45
Speaker
And that could that could be anything from, ah as you said, yeah man to like a mid-summer night's dream, depending on the production quality. No, it was a contemporary bedroom set. Ooh.
00:27:58
Speaker
Or a fairly contemporary. and And then Tatum is playing a dog. She's in like a big kind of anthropomorphic dog suit. And the the director is telling her, you know, you're you're stumbling in, you know you're missing some of your cues, you're getting in the way, blah, blah, blah. I expected more of you. you you're You're very timid. You're very this.
00:28:18
Speaker
you're You're Sidney Prescott's daughter. What the hell is wrong with you? Kind of thing. ah So youre not not a nice guy. Not a nice guy, right?
00:28:29
Speaker
So be because they're having to work on stuff, she goes down to the costume shop. McKenna Grace and the kid who's running the flying rig are practicing with that.
00:28:41
Speaker
Everybody involved with the play is all separated from one another. So conveniently, no one can be anyone's alibi.
00:28:52
Speaker
a And a ghost face comes in, kills the kid running the flight harness, very forcibly, you know, whacks McKenna Grace around on the harness.
00:29:07
Speaker
And then as she as he has her flying back across the stage, guts her so her guts come spilling out onto the stage.
00:29:18
Speaker
oof I've focused in a little too much on Scream 7 for now. let's Let's take a look at like we wanted to do at the overall meta yes of the series.
00:29:31
Speaker
The first one plays with the tropes of a horror movie, like like we've said. And I feel this is a good time to explain the sort of state of the Slasser franchise in the 90s. It was dead.
00:29:46
Speaker
dead Dead as a doorknob. It was as dead as the victims in a slasher movie. It was a punchline. did they were now No one cared about... No one was scared of slasher movies anymore.
00:30:01
Speaker
Just a few years before that, I went to see a movie that was frightening in a different way, which was Star Trek V. And the trailers beforehand...
00:30:13
Speaker
One of the trailers was, i i mentioned it earlier, Friday the 13th, Jason Takes Manhattan.
00:30:24
Speaker
Let me paint the picture for you, Nick. A theater full of people. We're watching trailers. we We see majes a majestic shot of the New York skyline.
00:30:36
Speaker
I forget what was playing, but it was probably New York, New York. Wasn't this the one was it this ah the the one with the towers too? Well, yeah, because this is you know late 80s. This is like 89,
00:30:47
Speaker
is like eighty nine ninety So, yeah, it would have the towers. But, you know majestic skyline of New York City, um while probably like new york New York is playing. As it pans down from the skyline and looking across the river at the the skyline, we then see Jason Voorhees and the title comes up on the screen. Friday the 13th, Jason Takes Manhattan.
00:31:18
Speaker
And a theater full of people bursts into laughter. This is a slasher movie. This is one of the most well-known, most frightening... Four villains of...
00:31:33
Speaker
like a lot of that has in the 20th century has 21st century has spent to rebuild these legacy characters but yeah make them sound it was a it was a punch line and again this is even the worst i went to a theater in the early 2000s and saw a trailer for jason x Jason look in space.
00:31:58
Speaker
Kind of the last gasp of, I guess they would classify as slasher movies ah being truly scary before that flip to when they just kind of died and became a punchline were the Hellraiser movies probably. And even those arguably, yeah are they those are not necessarily traditional slashes with great horror movies.
00:32:23
Speaker
They're more cosmic horror based on the on on the on the Baker stuff. And this is But yeah, this is... This is the state of slasher movies in the late 90s, in the mid to late 90s when Scream comes out.
00:32:41
Speaker
And this is not just for for Jason. It's for for Michael. It's for Chucky. It's for all of your your favorites. Yeah. They're all in a rut. as As the story goes, Kevin Williamson had a hell of a time selling the script for the first Scream movie because slasher movies were dead.
00:33:00
Speaker
No one's here. It took getting Wes Craven involved and Wes Craven basically had to be bribed to direct Scream. He had another movie that he wanted to do, and the studio said, we'll greenlight that if you do this.
00:33:19
Speaker
And so he agreed to do Scream to do something else. Now, i but wasn't that his new nightmare? or that No, that came out before.
00:33:30
Speaker
um I think it came before. No, it it was so I want to say it was something not necessarily horror-related that he wanted to do. I'm not saying that, but I know that Wes Craven was already toying with the idea of a metaphysical look at slasers.
00:33:48
Speaker
Because yeah you don't remember, Wes Craven is the mastermind behind The Nightmare on Elm Street. And yeah, they he did his own crew textual Wes Craven's New Nightmare, where he and the actors, some of the actors from the original Nightmare on Elm Street, appeared as themselves being stalked by...
00:34:10
Speaker
an entity that was manifesting as horror movie character, Freddy Krueger. Distinctly not. If you look at, if you actually watch the film, it's not Freddy Krueger. It is a great entity, sort of cosmic horror entity that has taken the form and shape of the villain of the movie that they are working on, which is implied to be A Nightmare on Elm Street.
00:34:37
Speaker
Well, it's implied to be a yet another sequel to A Nightmare on Elm Street. So it is commentating on that, and this entity is sort of a reimagining of Freddy Krueger, but as a much more serious entity. Into this world comes Scream, which plays with the tropes of a horror movie. Like we've said, the characters...
00:35:01
Speaker
in Scream have watched horror movies. They've not just watched horror movies. It name checks real horror movies. It doesn't make up fake horror movie titles.
00:35:18
Speaker
for the meta-narrative. It references- This is sort of thing for the- say you're watching a zombie movie and no one knows what a zombie is. That's part of like the suspension of disbelief. It's like, well, that's why they don't know how zombie movies work.
00:35:35
Speaker
And ultimately, we we find out at the end of the movie- At the climax, when our killers are unmasked, spoiler alert, it's Sydney's boyfriend, Billy, and his best friend, Stu. 30-year-old spoilers.
00:35:51
Speaker
Part of the reason they've been going about, not their motivations, But the reason they've been doing things the way they've been doing is because they are genre savvy in horror
Audience Interaction with Scream's Meta Elements
00:36:04
Speaker
movies.
00:36:05
Speaker
They're doing things the way that they're doing them because not only is that what they've grown up seeing when you're going to do something like this in fiction.
00:36:19
Speaker
But if they're if their frame job of Sidney's father, because they're going to frame him as the killer, part of their rationalization when they're spelling out their master plan to Sidney is the movie's made us do it.
00:36:34
Speaker
Again, which it does fit in with at the narrative time. There was a lot of talk about like violence in media, the start of the video game scare. Exactly. Exactly. it was It was a very, very smart.
00:36:47
Speaker
It's been lauded for years, and and I don't want to oversell the fact that it's been lauded as one of the smartest horror scripts ever written. Honestly, that it came out just at the right time is mostly due to that. But there's still like, there is some brilliance to it.
00:37:04
Speaker
Yeah, the whole thing plays with that. And the characters themselves comment upon the tropes as they find themselves falling into the tropes.
00:37:19
Speaker
And the main factor is that this is, the slasers are now old hack and people have had Watts parties. In fact, they have a Watts party with a bunch of friends. For a horror movie. At the climax.
00:37:32
Speaker
Part of it is this is where they talk about the rules. Right. And before we get into the rules, because that because the rules become a recurring, its own recurring trope in the Scream franchise.
00:37:46
Speaker
But before we get into the rules really quickly, you i want to mention how you know i we were just saying that the characters recognize the tropes as they find themselves falling into it.
00:37:59
Speaker
The first time that Sydney herself is attacked, she's on the phone with Ghostface. Ghostface is doing the, do you like scary movies bit? And she starts, you know, no, I don't really like them. I think they're stupid because they're all the same. Some, you know, knife wielding psycho chasing a you know, big breasted,
00:38:23
Speaker
girl who can't act, who runs up the stairs when she should be running out the door. And then when he shows up in her house and attacks her, instead of running out the door, she runs up the stairs.
00:38:36
Speaker
i get that or bad back Back to the question of is is is Scream a great horror parody or is it a straight slasher? It's both. The way the scene is framed and staged you almost understand why she runs up the stairs because he's just come through the door.
00:38:57
Speaker
so He did the thing that she would have done. Yeah. She goes running up the stairs because if I get into my room, I can lock the door and I'll be safe there.
00:39:09
Speaker
But it's unintentionally hilarious because, so like she said, i would just run out the door. Exactly. Whether it's like the phenomenal script, it's still a smart script.
00:39:21
Speaker
I need to talk to our friend Brev about this. I i wish I had been able to get bre get a hold of Brev to see if he wanted to talk about this. I i certain would love to talk about this. yeah Well, Brev being a writer, I know that he probably like whether he likes the movie or not, I'm not sure, but I'm sure he loves this script.
00:39:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I love that. I love this script, too, because again, like it's it's just so tightly, it those little jokes are maybe are not meant to be intentional or not, but if you pick up it, it's like, oh, that's pretty clever.
00:39:54
Speaker
When we reach the climax, even, some of those tropes play into play into it because, you Stu has been taken care of by a TV falling on his head. More more to come later.
00:40:10
Speaker
Stu has a TV that that falls on his head. Foreshadowing is a literary device. Billy is making one last attack. Sydney gets a hold of a gun and shoots him.
00:40:21
Speaker
And as they're all standing around, you know, her friend Randy, who is the the movie nerd, who's the one who's been making commentary on the meta narrative throughout the movie, says like, you know, if this were a movie, this is the part where, you know, he he gets back up for one last attack, at which point Billy sits up and Sydney puts a bullet in his head.
00:40:47
Speaker
So, meta. But you were going to mention the rules, my friend. The rules. The rules are, is one of the most iconic scenes of the entire Scream franchise. even ah Just as iconic as the as the as the opening.
00:41:05
Speaker
Just as iconic as... What's your favorite scary movie? because it's where they really do what the what basically everyone's done at this point in the period of time since slasher films have gotten to this point.
00:41:22
Speaker
They've ripped apart the formula, and they just sort of plainly state, here are the rules to a horror movie. Don't drink. They're all at a party drinking.
00:41:33
Speaker
Don't have sex. Well, there there has been a very pointed... plot element since Billy was first introduced at the beginning of the movie that he's been trying to get Sidney to have sex with him and she keeps saying she's not ready and then at that party at the end she finally gives in yeah and then what what of course is the final rule never say I'll be right back never say I'll be right back
00:42:09
Speaker
At which point, Stu was like, I'll be right back. Now that itself is a subversion of them. But we don't know it yet. Yes.
00:42:19
Speaker
Again, the the rules are meant are there to give structure to not just describe the classic structure of the slasher film, but to then give structure to the film it's in, and then they play with it.
00:42:36
Speaker
Nick, it's been a while since I've watched the original, or at least paid close attention to the original. After Stu asks Randy if he wants another drink, Randy says sure, and Stu says, I'll get it for you. I'll be right back.
00:42:54
Speaker
When Tatum leaves a few minutes later to go get more beers for everyone, does she say it? I don't believe so. i'm not I don't think she does either. The rules are meant to be so ah to be structural and meant to be played around with.
00:43:12
Speaker
We're supposed to think Stu is going to die in this scene. Right. But that's what I was about to say. That's the subversion that you were talking about. that We don't know it's the subversion yet, but Tatum goes out into the garage to get more drinks.
00:43:26
Speaker
and is killed by Ghostface, who, while it's never explicitly said in the movie whether it's Billy or Stu, have always held the belief that in that particular instance, it was Stu.
00:43:40
Speaker
Oh, just because of that that, that's the correlation causation thing. He's gone out, made the joke, like, I'll be right back.
00:43:51
Speaker
does that does that to someone who doesn't say, I'll be right back. Right. Such a tight script. It's drum tight. It's great. The beautiful thing about it is throughout the entire movie, it could beat anyone. There's still an argument to this day about how many actual killers there are, even though they've confirmed it multiple times. but I still know some people that say that there's three Well, when when you get to Scream 3, technically there were three, because billy while Billy and Stu were doing everything, Roman is the one who wound them up and pointed them in the direction.
00:44:36
Speaker
Yeah, but that was... you before that even there was still like a third killer theory it it was It did a lot of money. It sold a lot of tickets. oh It made a lot of money. just it It wasn't just good. It was fantastic. Critics loved it. Fans loved it. It basically saved the Slasher franchise.
00:44:57
Speaker
And so, of course, they fast they fast-tracked a sequel that then played with the conventions and tropes of a sequel. And we got a new set of rules that which were the rules of sequels. you know the body count is always higher. The kills are more elaborate. And spoiler alert, kids, as the series goes on, these rules continue to apply.
00:45:22
Speaker
feel like the rules are... the The scene may not be as iconic as the original rules scene. There's always a rules discussion.
00:45:33
Speaker
And I think the rules, a discussion of rules. The rules are basically, just as this movie's core, I think it was making fun of the slasher rules, its own concept of the rules evolves and is like the backbone of the screen franchise.
00:45:52
Speaker
Where I really think it's always been a very, very metatextual franchise, but where I really think they kicked the metatextual level of everything into higher gear is probably the most maligned. And I would say three and four being the most maligned is a toss up.
00:46:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's, that's toss But I would say where it really kicks into highest meta gear is in four. Four definitely. I agree with that.
00:46:29
Speaker
Because Sydney is returning home on a book tour, on a book signing tour, for her book about being a survivor of all of these traumatic events that in the first three movies, which not only did she live through all of that, it has given birth to a slasher film franchise that has gone on to fictionalize new killings that aren't based on real killings.
00:47:05
Speaker
And implied to be hitting the same sort of plateau that the slasher films of old were half-hitting. Our pre-credits kill in Scream 4 is like four layers of meta deep.
00:47:22
Speaker
Because you you have two fake-out killings of two girls, or between two girls, and it's two different girls each time.
00:47:36
Speaker
watching stab movies, the final two actually are killed as they are complaining about how bad the stab movies have gotten.
00:47:51
Speaker
And the motivation for the killers are revealed to be Sydney's cousin and a friend of hers who she had recruited they were going to be partners and become famous with her being the new Sydney and surviving new ghost face killings that actually killed Sydney Prescott and...
00:48:21
Speaker
She had planned really to kill her partner too, so she would truly be the final girl. Which is itself a fascinating concept on the idea of like replacing the star of a series.
00:48:36
Speaker
Replacing the star of a series and... And while rejuvenating the series. and And playing with the trope of the final girl. yeah I think that's the one... It may not be the strongest entry in terms of its script.
00:48:52
Speaker
You could argue... I'd say that I'd take any screen script over most of the movies that have been made in the Slasser franchise that aren't new properties or proper reboots.
00:49:06
Speaker
I remember watching 4 for the first time. I waited for home video. And I remember watching it for the first time and thinking... Okay, that was okay. It was nothing special. But I revisited again a couple of years ago.
00:49:23
Speaker
And when I revisited it, I do want to give full credit to our friends at the Movie Defenders podcast for when I revisited it.
00:49:36
Speaker
I don't remember if they, I think they might have done an episode on it, but I'm not sure. Or they might have just mentioned it. But I revisited it, looking at it from a more, let's look at the script and what it's doing and what it's trying to do angle that they always do.
00:49:54
Speaker
And that's something that I always say with movies. like You can watch movies multiple ways. And I at least watch a movie twice just to like, here's my initial experience and then here's how I'm looking it from a technical, like a technical document thing.
00:50:11
Speaker
What is it doing? How is it working? Scream 4 may not have been the most satisfying Scream movie. On a regular watch, but if you i I do feel there's like... When I was looking at it from that analytical level, i was like, oh, I see all of the things that it's doing here.
00:50:34
Speaker
It may not have been executed all that well. like yeah that's That's the difference. like you There's a lot of movies that are like, I can see what you're doing.
00:50:45
Speaker
You're just not hitting what you want to hit. And that was it for Scream for a while. Again, it sort of hibernated. And this is also during sort of a weird hibernation of slasher films, especially the big one.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah, the the big ones were you had kind of played themselves out. What more was there to do with them? kind of It made sense. It both went on a weird sort of like hibernation period.
00:51:14
Speaker
Looking at the release at the release date, the fifth movie wasn't called Scream 5. It was just called Scream. Yes. And look looking at the release date, it came out in 2022.
00:51:30
Speaker
So Blumhouse had time to really get their Halloween legacy sequel trilogy. Up and running. hiy And they were the only one that succeeded because in that time there was the the there is a Texas Chainsaw several attempts to take that back off. There was the Friday the 13th reboot and the Nightmare on Elm Street reboot.
00:51:58
Speaker
yep
00:52:00
Speaker
Yep. None of which really satisfied the fans of any of those series. Practice Chainsaw kind of had it, but it went to the video quickly, and then it tried be doing the 3D era, and that didn't work either.
00:52:15
Speaker
But Blumhouse struck gold with their approach to the legacy sequel of Halloween. i think i would like to do I think we should do some videos on the ah video ah podcast on the that because I feel that there's some stuff to talk about that legacy sequel trilogy.
00:52:35
Speaker
we We can. Our friends that we just mentioned have done it. I'm not sure that I would have anything to say that they didn't already cover, but I would be to talk about it with you. It has a bit of a, some detractors I feel like there's some things that could be cleared up to make sure that that like it it definitely deserves its place as like a top tier trilogy.
00:52:56
Speaker
At that same time, legacy sequels were starting to fire off. across the board, not just in horror. To the point that Patrick Willems recently did a video on, two videos actually, on legacy sequels.
00:53:13
Speaker
Ghostbusters, ah the The Force Awakens, there's a lot of like big franchise work coming back. Scream took the legacy sequel approach. I've honestly forgotten what the pre-credits kill was in V. I've totally forgotten what it was.
00:53:31
Speaker
we We follow a new sort of set of characters. Right. we We follow a set of characters who are connected to, but not... Some of whom are connected to, but not carbon copies of the original characters.
00:53:50
Speaker
very much our our new gen. First, we mix them with Dewey, fan favorite character from the original four movies. Everybody loves Dewey. Dewey was slated to die in the first one, and Gosh darn it, everybody loved him so much that they wrote in a scene where he survived, and Dewey kept going. And so, of course, you you're going to bring him back for the Legacy sequel. And of course, being such a fan favorite, he's going to be okay, right? Foreshadowing is a literary device.
00:54:28
Speaker
Again, we're playing with with're tropes because so we have a new set of rules for... For legacy sequels, or as they called them in the movie itself, requels.
00:54:41
Speaker
Which feels like itself, is itself a meta... na narrative naming of the convention as like a reboot sequel will hide.
00:54:54
Speaker
And also still has the word like reek, which is like not so good, which was kind of ah like um a thing around people. Like it's, ah it's, it's trying to be a reboot and a sequel, but neither is, it's not the sum of its parts.
00:55:09
Speaker
And one thing that I found really clever that five didn't, call attention to but was there in the background is as with any franchise like this fan theories abounded and ah especially we like fan theories in general was a big thing in like the 2010s of a lot of media franchises among them were yeah we We mentioned Stu having the TV dropped on his head. Well, one of them was Stu didn't die.
00:55:45
Speaker
And this that had been around for a long time. That had actually been around since an early draft script of Scream 3. Yeah. yeah that was That was an actual plot point in an early draft of the Scream 3 script where it was going to be Stu who was the mastermind of of what all was going on in 3.
00:56:08
Speaker
But it was scrapped. But again, like fan theories have been like a part of the franchise for a while. and But especially in the 2010s, that was a big part of just every fandom. So it made sense to call that into into the recall. And it should also be mentioned that part of the reason for the fan fan theory is Matthew Lillard, who played Stu, was...
00:56:32
Speaker
doing somebody, it might have even been Wes Craven, a favor or was visiting the set or whatever during the filming of Scream 2, and there was a college party happening that was being filmed, and he's in the background.
00:56:52
Speaker
Oh yeah, I think you're right. There is a background. He does appear... i mean think it's a call Don't call attention to it. He's not trying to play Stu. He's just... He's a background guy.
00:57:05
Speaker
He's a background extra. So that and the Scream 3 script fed into that fan theory. Another fan theory was that...
00:57:16
Speaker
In four, Hayden Panettiere played um one of the high school students who was attacked by the killers in the climax of the movie.
00:57:28
Speaker
She was never confirmed to be dead in it. And I can't remember if she was being wheeled away on screen and people swore they saw her moving or not. I don't remember. But...
00:57:44
Speaker
There was a whole you know justice for Kirby, Kirby lives, yo Kirby survived. And so there's one scene in Scream 5 where a character is going to look at going to watch the trailer for the latest Stab movie on YouTube and And you know how YouTube has the suggested videos over on the side?
00:58:09
Speaker
One of the thumbnails is an interview with Woodsboro killing survivor Kirby Reed, which had a picture of Hayden Panettiere in the thumbnail.
00:58:20
Speaker
And there's another That was a thumbnail for a video about a conspiracy theory that Stu Mocker survived. It opened up an element of the meta-narrative to the whole franchise of, yes, we see you, to the fans.
00:58:40
Speaker
Again, that's a big part of franchises going forward. the egg For better or worse, fandom is a part of the media landscape now.
00:58:52
Speaker
So they are acknowledging that. Have you ever thought about how adding that element plays into the themes of the reveal of the killers and their motivations in Scream 5, Nick?
00:59:05
Speaker
I did. Because what is the motivation for the killers in Scream 5? I think yeah i when we first watched you said it most eloquently.
00:59:15
Speaker
Toxic fanboys are the killers in Scream 5. I remember watching it and both cringing and being like, yep, I get it.
00:59:28
Speaker
i get i get it. I get it. get it. For those of you who have not seen Scream 5, the motivation for the killers is that the stab movies have gotten bad.
00:59:41
Speaker
And the producers, so and that the reason why is because there aren't any real murders for the producers to base the stab movies on anymore so they need to listen to the fan by god they need to listen to the fans and give the fans what they want so we will start committing new murders for them to base the movies on so they'll be good again And it's like, oh, God, I have been in this chat room before.
01:00:19
Speaker
Toxic fandom is the killers of of the movie. And it's like, in another franchise, this may seem like, okay that's a bit too on the nose. But again, this is a metatextual franchise.
01:00:35
Speaker
being metatextual the movie did play by its rules usually in a legacy sequel a returning legacy character must be killed to prove that the stakes are high and dewey is killed that was bold again in a in a slasher franchise usually the fan favorite character basically gets immunity the whole way through Also, part of the the tie of Legacy is Melissa Barrera's character is the love child of Billy Loomis, one of the original Ghost Faces.
01:01:13
Speaker
And she's not completely right in the head because she keeps having visions of Billy talking to her. Which is a fun callback to like the weird supernatural aspects connecting killers from things like Halloween and and ah Friday the 13th, which part of the sequels that that were starting to get a little bit weird, but they didn't imply that.
01:01:43
Speaker
they They didn't imply that it was supernatural. They implied that it was psychological. But it's still a fun callback to those thatless movies. So it's still like it's still keeping its roots, to being like, we're making acknowledgement of classics.
01:01:58
Speaker
We go on into Scream 6, which I honestly thought, since they had kind of leaned in into
Scream 6 and the Killer's Lair
01:02:06
Speaker
some of the fan theories, when we got into Scream 6 and we see that there is... yeah the The killer has a lair with memorabilia from...
01:02:19
Speaker
The actual killings, not the stab movies, but the actual killings. There are the various ghost face masks of all of the previous ghost faces. There's, I forget what all there was, but one of the items was the TV that fell on Stu.
01:02:40
Speaker
Oh yeah, I remember that. oh That was the closest i that I've ever gotten to the Stu-Live theory might be real. was like, deep cut. i mean I honestly thought that they were going to reveal that at least one of the killers was Stu, but it wasn't.
01:02:59
Speaker
And again, yeah was getting so playing with silt the fact that they're still playing with that, still building up the fandom, it's like... that's still a meta-textual nod to us. It's like, they know that we see the TV, we're going to be like, yep.
01:03:14
Speaker
At this point, we have to come circle back around to Scream 7 again. So if you're still listening... Spoilers. we We kind of, in Scream 7, get the marketing campaign. Oh, and I forgot to mention something about the marketing campaign for 5.
01:03:32
Speaker
ah there was a There was a Reddit oh username that Basically doing the rounds, it was really used to be one of the one of the killers doing the doing these Reddit threads. And it was basically being like a classic toxic fan on a lot of subreddits. So was it Jack Quaid or was it Mikey Madison?
01:03:57
Speaker
that that That was a fun reveal. In Scream 7, the marketing campaign made no secret of the fact that Matthew Lillard was back. The press made no secret. They announced that he was cast in the movie. yeah it is It was a big deal because he's already currently attached to it to a large horror franchise.
01:04:19
Speaker
And that's the whole reason why they delayed the inevitable third movie because he had the film for this. So it was no secret that Matthew Lillard, to some degree, is involved in In this film.
01:04:30
Speaker
The seventh movie, the new movie, plays with plays with those fan expectations, those fan theories, and it plays with modern technology and and what can be done.
01:04:45
Speaker
Oh yeah, you I think you know exactly what you're going to mention because you brought that up. and like After... The pre-credits killing. We get a glimpse at Sydney's present life, where she seems to have mostly finally gotten beyond everything.
01:05:04
Speaker
She owns a coffee shop in a small town somewhere. She's not hiding. People know who she is. In fact, one of Tatum's friends is a big true crime fan and keeps wanting to interview her.
01:05:20
Speaker
She gets a phone call. you know, it's ghost face voice. So of course, you know, what, it what does she do whenever this happens? You know, she starts recording and she's handling it. Like she's clearly done this a million times before in the past 30 years.
01:05:39
Speaker
Which of course, yes. And you, she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just another, you know, Just another coward hiding behind a voice changer, just like all of the rest. At which point he says, oh, I'm not hiding anymore. I'm going to show you who I really am and switches to a FaceTime call.
01:05:59
Speaker
And it's Stu. Again, I haven't seen the movie, but I can understand how shocking and fun of a concept that is. that This is a a heavy piece of evidence that you're supposed to take with you that it really is Stu, in that ah one of the things that Stu said to her in the kitchen, in the climax, that there's not much reason, there could be reasons why the general public would know that he said this,
01:06:31
Speaker
But they wouldn't necessarily is, he says, I always had a thing for you, Sid, just like he did in the kitchen in the original. Yeah. And he he's like, oh, and look, I'm right out the right outside the theater that your daughter's rehearsing at.
01:06:51
Speaker
And I'm going to kill everybody in there. Which leads to the to the first post-credits killing. again you You know what I mean. I know what you mean. but here's where like The minute I heard that Matthew was coming back, and supposedly Stu was coming back, and I've never been a big fan of the Stu is a Alive theory.
01:07:12
Speaker
I can understand the evidence for it. Here is my first theory. And I... here It's a deep fake. That is a plot element in the movie. Trying to figure out, is this really Stu or is it a deep fake? Because again, that it just makes sense. it's It's honestly part of the technology, AI especially now. It's pertinent. It's part of... It's it's how they would do this.
01:07:40
Speaker
and Like I say, that is one of the the mysteries of the movie throughout it. It's... Is it, is Stu alive or is it a deep fake?
01:07:51
Speaker
Now, throughout the course of the movie, of course, Gail Weathers comes back in and here's here's another little meta thing. Neve Campbell was not in Scream 6.
01:08:02
Speaker
oh She very bluntly and publicly stated at the time why she was not in Scream 6. I am the original star of this series.
01:08:13
Speaker
they did not offer me a paycheck that I felt was commensurate with that position. Okay. They clearly found the right amount of money after Melissa Barrera and Jenna Ortega left the project since she's back.
01:08:30
Speaker
I mean, as mercenary as sounds, it's like, well, they they found the money. But several times throughout the movie, people mentioned to her that you know, she wasn't in New York when the last killings took place.
01:08:48
Speaker
And at one point she says to Gail, when they have a quiet moment, like I'm sorry I wasn't in New York. more meta text within the script throughout it she and Gail are gathering pieces of evidence and she's contacted the the hospital morgue in Woodsboro paperwork for Stu's body going in to the hospital is not present they don't know if it was never filed they don't know if it was stolen
01:09:22
Speaker
They don't know if it was just an error. And you can't ask the medical examiner who was on duty that night because she died years ago.
01:09:33
Speaker
Another thing about slasper movies, there are also low-key mystery movies most of the times. And Scream that definitely fits more into, like, it's less the case of, like, oh, no, the killer's after me. The killer's after you, but you're trying to figure out who they are. So it's more of a kind of a whodunit as well.
01:09:51
Speaker
And it in another deconstruction, after the first time that Sydney and her family are attacked in their home by Ghostface, they manage to get out of the house. Ghostface chases them out. And our introduction to Gale and a couple of other returning characters are, they come flying around the corner in a news van and run him over. They don't hit him. They run him over and kill him.
01:10:22
Speaker
Which is just a pet peeve of mine from from horror movies. It's like the few times that they do actually hit the killer with the car, it's like they bump him and he flies off.
01:10:34
Speaker
It's like... Okay, that in the real world, that should hurt someone. If it's a guy in the mask with ah with him with have a Mercedes or any sort of weapon, I'm making sure that I fully just like I feel the bump.
01:10:52
Speaker
And you know, this is probably a good time to mention one of the other through lines that I really appreciate about this entire series. We mentioned a few minutes ago that there wasn't a supernatural element.
01:11:04
Speaker
Yeah. to um To Sam's visions of Billy. Yeah. And throughout all of the movies, Ghostface gets hurt.
01:11:16
Speaker
Ghostface dies. Ghostfaces die. Well, Ghostfaces die, but even throughout the course of the movie... you know As they're pursuing people and people are fighting back, you you hear them you like grunt and you you see them stagger back.
01:11:33
Speaker
they They stumble. they they they They trip. They fall. that They get hurt. They're people. But so they they unmask him, and it's a creepy guy who had no lines that Sidney saw at her coffee shop that morning.
01:11:47
Speaker
They go following up on him, and he was recently released from a mental hospital. Which is a fun callback to, like, that that's your... That's that's Michael Miles, is basically, classic sort of... Your classic old-school origin or the story of a of a killer in a mask.
01:12:07
Speaker
And, you know, he had been... imprisoned before that for killing three women and so the gail and sydney go to investigate they they meet somebody who works at the hospital who agrees to let them see his room and you know they don't see anything um it it's kind of creepy, but nothing super incriminating, nothing that would tie him to Sidney or Tatum, nothing that would give him any kind of motivation in that respect.
01:12:40
Speaker
And so they they pull up the picture of Stu from the FaceTime call and it's like, what What about him? did do Do you recognize this person? Oh, yeah, that's John.
01:12:52
Speaker
Who? Oh, John Doe. That's the only name that we had for him. Yeah, he he used to be in the room right next door. um And yeah he he came in years ago. with no memory and no ID, so that's why he was classified as a John Doe. And, you know, he he and and Carl used to be used to talk all the time, but, you know, he since he was here willingly, he you know he left knew not too long ago.
01:13:22
Speaker
So, oh, we we're we're we're thinking that Stu is alive. Okay. Okay. we We go through everything. The the series has been good about subverting the rules.
01:13:38
Speaker
ah We have the the twins who are Randy's niece and nephew who since five have taken over the role of of providing the rules.
01:13:52
Speaker
Mindy starts to to make... herh starts to spell out the rules as they're interrogating all of Tatum's friends from school that they think are suspects. And Chad is like, we said we weren't going to do the rules anymore because it's getting to be more and more of a stretch. Just stop it.
01:14:08
Speaker
We have our killers unmasked. And it's Sydney's neighbor who is the mother of the true crime fan. And it's the guy from the hospital.
01:14:21
Speaker
Oh. Sydney's neighbor had read her book and... the The one that she was promoting in four, right? Yeah.
01:14:32
Speaker
And that gave her the courage. She had an abusive husband that gave her the courage to kill her abusive husband and hide the body. But she had developed a parasocial relationship with the public image of Sydney Prescott.
01:14:47
Speaker
And so she's like, okay, well to come through the other side as a survivor, I have to replace you. that's interesting. She had committed herself to the hospital for a little while. That's where she met the guy who works at the hospital, who has a history in AI and deepfakes.
01:15:11
Speaker
And they deepfaked Stu. Oh, well, like that. thats that's that That's interesting. there there's um There's some interesting, honestly, and I'd have to think about that. and Again, I haven't seen the movie yet, so like but the story elements, I like. I like that.
01:15:29
Speaker
Interesting to point out, too, is, I don't know if you realize this or not, Do you know who directed Scream 7? Actually, I don't. i haven't done a whole lot of research into it, actually.
01:15:43
Speaker
Kevin Williamson directed Scream 7. Really? Yes. the The original writer of 1 and 2 is the director of 7. Now, Kevin Williamson, at one point, they were going to...
01:16:01
Speaker
have their proverbial cake and eat it too. Yes, I know that's the incorrect order of the quote, but that's how everyone knows the quote. So I'm saying it that way. They filmed a post-credit scene that established that Despite everything that we just saw and what the killers said, Stu is indeed alive.
01:16:23
Speaker
They removed that post-credits scene after test audiences saw it because test audiences thought that it pushed credibility just a little too far.
Fan Theories and Controversies in Scream 7
01:16:33
Speaker
Again, without seeing the movie, I can't tell how. And honestly, I healthy hope they put that on like the home release because I would like to see that. bad egg-granted scene.
01:16:45
Speaker
Oh, I absolutely would, too. um you know Apparently, it was like a super short scene. I don't know exactly how it how it established it, but Kevin Williamson has publicly said in interviews after the premiere, yeah, we filmed it,
01:17:01
Speaker
you know I always thought that the whole Stu lives thing was a Stu. Regardless of what Williamson decided with that end scene, one thing I think we can agree on, Stu Mocker will return in Avengers Doomsday.
01:17:25
Speaker
And here's something, the audiences have taken exception to this. As the villains, you know as the ghost faces, after they've been revealed, are spelling out their motivation because ghost faces got a monologue.
01:17:39
Speaker
Yeah. As they're spelling out their motivations, fans are upset that they've said, mean, Stu being alive is the stupidest idea that anyone could ever believe.
01:17:53
Speaker
It's so stupid. He had a TV fall on his head. How stupid do you have to be to think Stu is still alive? Yeah. Honestly, that's my... am affirmatively not in the camp of... Never been in the camp of Stew is alive.
01:18:06
Speaker
It just doesn't fit for me. it just never made sense to me. I think it could be done. sure it can be done.
01:18:19
Speaker
yeah like it's it's It's easier... like billy Billy's dead. Billy's dead. Dead. Billy's dead dead, yes. because but like Oh, and and let let me tell you, Nick, the the ghost faces in Seven are played by Anna Camp and Ethan Embry.
01:18:38
Speaker
Oh. And Anna Camp is left with no goddamn face after Sidney and Tatum both unload entire clips into it.
01:18:51
Speaker
yeah Again, i got I do want to see it. It sounds sick. Because there's there's a scene earlier where Tatum, running from Ghostface, has hid in the coffee shop and Ghostface tracks her down.
01:19:12
Speaker
And apparently Ghostface knows the security code for the coffee shop and gets in. Because um first, you know, she's just hiding down low as he's coming by and looks in.
01:19:24
Speaker
And then after he's like ah after he walks away, ah she's almost given away because Sidney calls her and her phone's not on silent. she get And Sidney is telling her, you know,
01:19:38
Speaker
get to the office, there's a gun in the safe. And so she gets up to go to the office and then she hears beep, beep, beep, as he unlocks the door.
01:19:53
Speaker
And so she she makes it to the office, she barricades herself in, she gets gun. Sidney is... accessing And part of this is in the trailer and in one of the previews that they show.
01:20:06
Speaker
Sydney's walking her through, looking using the security cameras. Okay, aim here. a You're going have to shoot through the wall. Aim here. Okay, go. And she fires and knocks him down.
01:20:17
Speaker
Tatum goes out and she's like, okay, honey, you can leave now. But first, you got to shoot him in the head. Yeah. And she can't do it.
01:20:28
Speaker
ah But it sounds like that's sort of the payoff moment that you mentioned. Oh, yeah, that's the payoff moment at the end. you know they they've you know They've taken out Ethan Embry.
01:20:41
Speaker
they They each have a gun. And ah there's there's even a nice callback to Scream 5 before they they take on Anacamp.
01:20:52
Speaker
remember in scream five when Dewey calls Sydney because the killings are happening, happening in Woodsboro. And, and he says, do you have a gun? And she says, I'm Sydney fucking Prescott. Of course I have a gun.
01:21:08
Speaker
Well, she's talking to Tatum and she's like, you know, you go over here and do this. I can take care of it. And Tatum tells her, no, you know, we're, we're both going to do this because I'm Sydney fucking Prescott's daughter.
01:21:25
Speaker
I, I, I gotta the move. It sounds... fuck That sounds cool. And so finally, you know, they they they shoot Anna Camp and she goes down and gets up, of course, and is running at them. And then both of them just unload on her in the face. And so there's just this bloody pulp left. Also, Daryl phrasing. Yeah.
01:21:55
Speaker
let Let me do mention, know how I said that like the the sequel rules, even though technically a different set of rules is given in each movie, applies as things go on.
01:22:11
Speaker
And yeah one of the rules for sequels in 2 was the kills are more elaborate. The kills 7 are more elaborate to the point that There's one even that I'm like, this almost seems out of place.
01:22:33
Speaker
that That's the one thing that I've heard from someone else that's that I know has seen it. it's like that Some of the kills are like least one are the kills, at least one of the kills for them, so they said, was a bit closer to Final Destination Scream.
01:22:51
Speaker
thenre Not having seen the Final Destination movies, I don't know. But what I will say is, you know how Nightmare on Elm Street got a reputation for the elaborate thematic staging of kills and there would be some sort of irony or imagery to them?
01:23:12
Speaker
the there The dream logic, yeah, a lot of that, yeah. Yeah, one of those, at least one of the kills is like that in this. Again, that's the only critique in terms of like, from what I've heard, the kills are so like, the most of the kills are like up there in an 8 and a 9 out of 10, from what I've heard.
01:23:34
Speaker
Since you've had no problem with me spoiling, I'll just ill i'll explain it to you. Okay, explain the The big multi-kill set piece where ah Mindy and Chad have brought all of Tatum's friends to try to figure out which one of them is the killer, because they're convinced one of them is the killer. Spoiler alert, they were wrong.
01:23:56
Speaker
one of the girl's parents owns a restaurant. It's kind of like a bar and grill type restaurant. yeah Now that I think of it, I want to know which ghost faced it was which ghost face it was that killed him. it's...
01:24:13
Speaker
the The neighbor kid who was the true crime friend fan was Anna Camp's son. He's knocked unconscious. He's severely wounded. and then Ghostface drags him out to the bar. And one of the beer taps has like a big decorative pointy handle on it.
01:24:36
Speaker
And Ghostface lifts him up and drops him down you know with the base of his skull starting on the pointy tap.
01:24:47
Speaker
So that once everything settles, then beer and blood start spilling out of his mouth. I see. that That one seems like a very Nightmare on Elm Street kind of kill yeah i can i can see that's where where i'm afraid to say that that seems a bit out of place for because again like it's usually like it's very classic slasher in like knife it's usually a knife yeah it's a kill that seems more plausible than how they were describing it but it's like it doesn't seem like a it doesn't sound like a ghost face kill
01:25:25
Speaker
The reason I want to know which one of the two of them it was is because when Sydney asks her, after she's unmasked, when Sydney asks her, well, what about him? Well, well you know, he he was, i don't remember exactly what she says. Basically, he was a loser anyway. He he was worthless, you know, and and now now I'm rid of him.
01:25:49
Speaker
And I want to know if it was her that did it that That intrigues me too. like I'll say this. like Even with the quote-unquote spoilers, i am I do want to see 3 and 7.
01:26:03
Speaker
It's definitely worth seeing. And I appreciate you, for the sake of our discussion tonight, letting me spoil it for you. Oh, it's it's honestly, it helped me. Because again, it's hard to pick apart...
01:26:17
Speaker
the mechanics of a meta-narrative when they're in a story that's well-written. The screen one is is easy to do because it's the meta-narrator is on there, but also it's hard to not guess about it because screen one is so good.
01:26:32
Speaker
Not really meta-narrative, but one last thing that I that i did want to say. I i thought i that I was looking at a Chekhov's gun in the movie at one point because at one point...
01:26:45
Speaker
There's a close-up of Gail's hand, and it's shaking, and Sidney asks about it, and Gail says that it's nerve damage from the attacks in New York.
01:26:57
Speaker
And it's called back later when Sidney finally gives Gail the interview that she's wanted for 30 years yeah as a way of drawing Stu out.
01:27:08
Speaker
And Gail starts going to off-limits questions. She starts asking Sydney about Tatum.
01:27:19
Speaker
And so Sydney ends the interview. And then... She and Gail are talking after and Gail's tremors are back and she popped some medication for them.
01:27:30
Speaker
I honestly thought that they were going to go there. I thought that we were going to get right before the masks came off. I thought we were going to get a tell that one of the ghost faces was going to have tremors in the hand.
01:27:43
Speaker
And I thought that they were going to go there that after everything that she's been through and losing Dewey, And all of that that we did that that, that... That he would snap and it would be... That that Gale snapped.
01:27:57
Speaker
Honestly, I can see that, but also I can see that being and a well done... ah Since they like to play around with tropes so much, they planted the Chekhov's gun, but it's a red herring.
01:28:08
Speaker
Yeah. Because in the narrative that we've set up, that set up that's very plausible. Yeah. Oh yeah, now that we've kind of gushed about all of them, if you take a step back, this whole metatextual knowing way of approaching slasher movies has kind of become the status quo for slasher movies.
01:28:37
Speaker
whilst While slasher movie characters may not necessarily call out specific slasher movies like Scream does, yeah the characters...
01:28:48
Speaker
tend to be genre savvy. At least their own franchise savvy. Yeah, they they are savvy to the things that are going on around them.
01:29:01
Speaker
I remember...
01:29:06
Speaker
in the blu house halloween triy C is prepared for Michael Myers. Could C probably handle other killers? Possibly. C's that prepared.
01:29:18
Speaker
But C is ready specifically from the experience of fighting Michael Myers. Not quite to Lori's extent. She hasn't gone off the deep end like Lori did in the Blumhouse Halloween. Sydney has a super high-tech security system in her house.
01:29:36
Speaker
There is a safe room that has basically an escape hatch that if they need to get out of the safe room, they can go through the walls and out the escape hatch downstairs.
01:29:51
Speaker
Like the idea of bringinging back bringing back the old characters, like they even tried that with the the most recent Texas Chainsaw. They brought back the original final girl from Texas Chainsaw as a Laurie Stroud aspect that that's did did she died.
01:30:13
Speaker
And that movie wasn't really good anyways. they've clearly practiced for things like this because they go back to the house. Her husband is the sheriff of the town.
01:30:24
Speaker
is de His deputies clear the house and like, okay, we'll be back out in five minutes. And it's like, She goes into Tatum's room and goes into her closet and like, where's your go bag?
01:30:35
Speaker
I unpacked that like three years ago because it's stupid. She goes back into her room where her husband's getting stuff and lights are out. And she's like, why'd you turn the lights out? Well, I didn't. I thought you did.
01:30:48
Speaker
They realize that, you as we have ah as the audience have already been made to know, Ghostface is in the house. He was up in the attic. After the deputies cleared, he drops down. They start to go to Tatum's room, and slowly she comes out with Ghostface holding a knife to her throat.
01:31:06
Speaker
And so husband, the sheriff, puts his gun down on the floor is like, look, I'm unarmed. You can let her go now. And Sidney's like, I'm the one that you want anyway, so let her go.
01:31:20
Speaker
Ghostface seems to be looking at them like, I was not expecting that. And then you her husband yells, down, Tatum drops, and he tackles fucking Ghostface.
01:31:36
Speaker
Again, there is an influence from there, but it's always sort of rooted in the fact that fact it in a different
Scream's Influence on Modern Horror Films
01:31:44
Speaker
way. It's like the franchises are approaching it from the protagonist, or usually returning for legacy sequels, are experienced with the threat they're facing.
01:31:56
Speaker
they They understand what's going on. they They know that there are things that they can do to prepare themselves, and they have taken precautions. Again, they're genre savvy.
01:32:07
Speaker
That's different from the Scream movies where in which all these movies exist. So therefore they know of the rules of these movies in general.
01:32:20
Speaker
Like we were saying a moment ago, ah as a whole, taking this, it's not always self-awareness. That's there that' the difference. it's it's are Scream is very self-aware.
01:32:35
Speaker
And self-deprecional, self-deprecionary, and also self-reflective. Slasher movies, horror movies in the modern day have a adopted a level of not necessarily self-awareness, but awareness within their narratives.
01:32:55
Speaker
They recognize that audiences have gotten tired of the of certain old hap tropes. Well, audience of audiences have gotten tired of those old tropes and audiences have now have 30 years worth of scream where they're like, haven't you watched a movie?
01:33:15
Speaker
Exactly. It's like, that's why I always say like, that no zombie movie uvi franchise exists in a world where zombies as a movie franchise exists.
01:33:27
Speaker
And Robert Kirkman has said that about every iteration of Walking Dead. George Romero movies, zombie movies, do not exist in any iteration of the Walking Dead universe.
01:33:41
Speaker
Because it wouldn't make any sense then. It's really had, as a franchise, it's had an impact on an entire genre of movies that... Greater than just the slasher, which itself ace is a sub-genre of horror.
01:33:59
Speaker
Because ah some people... have complained about it in certain movies, but yeah, every genre of movie now seems to have adopted a bit of awareness. And some of it is meta awareness and self-awareness where characters will say, well, you what about this?
01:34:22
Speaker
Or there there's one of my, one of my favorite lines from Firefly where the characters are learning that River is psychic and And Wash says, psychic powers, that sounds like science fiction.
01:34:38
Speaker
And Zoe turns to him and says, dear, we live on a spaceship. Exactly. that it's There's a nature to the fact that fact and that that could be a larger discussion about the idea of metanarrative becoming part of narrative. over time but definitely if you want as a case example scream definitely popularized the idea of our characters understand movies exist and therefore they are using movies to make decisions that make sense outside of their regular understanding
01:35:18
Speaker
I don't think a story like Scream would have worked... It might have worked 10 years earlier. It wouldn't have worked in 76. No, no, it wouldn't.
01:35:32
Speaker
It wouldn't have worked in 76 because... While, yes, there was mass media in the 70s and on into the 80s, it was really the 90s where...
90s Media and the Rise of Metatextuality
01:35:46
Speaker
Their whole media, like like VHS, was made movies available. Media as a whole, VHS, DVD was being born at the time that Scream came out.
01:36:00
Speaker
there were There were plenty of channels that were running old movies. cable channels. It was the early days of public access to the internet.
01:36:12
Speaker
ah You know, public access to the internet. Media was becoming more and more pervasive. So it makes sense that a movie like this where individuals were partaking in media and media, quote unquote, literary and understanding would make sense to be like the beginning of that and why it still persists today because now media is now everywhere.
01:36:39
Speaker
Yeah, media is in your pocket. Media is what lets you know two guys like us and our friends have a worldwide platform to yammer about the pop culture that we like.
01:36:55
Speaker
That's true.
Media Literacy in the Internet Age
01:36:56
Speaker
So I think that that would almost be... That sounds like a nice little bow to put on there. Nice little bow to put on it. The the one little coda that i would that I would say is you and I have discussed off-air how it seems that the more access to information and media that we all have, the faster media literacy seems to be dying.
01:37:29
Speaker
I feel that that is more the fact that media literacy requires a different type of learning tools. And
Second Screen Syndrome in Modern Viewing
01:37:37
Speaker
we have someone's media that people are absorbing, but they don't know how to talk about, to discuss it properly.
01:37:46
Speaker
There is that, and there is also the fact that there is so much media coming from so many directions that one has to actually pay attention to and interact with the media that one is consuming in order to be literate and understand it. And when you consider that television and movie writers...
01:38:13
Speaker
particularly television though, have acknowledged that there is what is known as the second screen syndrome. Yes. Where they are explicitly writing mostly TV, but anything that will eventually stream, which is pretty much anything.
01:38:36
Speaker
And I have with with with the intention. Yeah, with the intention and assumption that the people watching it at home are also holding their phone in their hand and scrolling and interacting. Or an iPad or anything else. Yeah, that
Media Tropes and Personal Lives
01:38:56
Speaker
they have a second screen that they are also paying attention to while that TV show or movie is running.
01:39:05
Speaker
And that's something I would like to get into at some point, but I have some strong feelings about that concept. Oh, me too. As a writer, and like, i long story short, I consider that a capitulation, not not a not a feature.
01:39:21
Speaker
oh same here. But where I was going with that is, i think... one of the next logical places for Scream to go is to have characters, you to introduce characters who, while they are aware of the media and the tropes and all of that, they aren't properly media literate, so they don't understand how to apply
01:39:55
Speaker
what they know basically through memes rather than through actual consumption of the media. Again, I can see that. And again, a franchise like Scream could definitely do that, especially as they go forward with the franchise. They can definitely see like how...
01:40:16
Speaker
audiences interact with the films and see straight eight sort of tailored to the, ah because again, it's tailoring to its audience over time. Because one, one of the subtle or not even really subtle, one of the through lines in seven is that, um,
01:40:36
Speaker
Tatum is upset with Sydney because Sydney is, know, Sydney's parenting, right? She's being a parent and putting limits and boundaries on Tatum that Tatum then turns around and says, like, early in the movie, her boyfriend climbs through her window, just like Billy did in the original movie.
01:41:01
Speaker
He specifically points out that yeah, your your mom's boyfriend climbed through her window when she was your age, because I saw it in Stab.
01:41:13
Speaker
Tatum is saying, like you're trying to tell me not to do things that not only do I think you probably did, because you were a teenage girl too, but everyone in the world knows you did because there's a movie about it.
01:41:29
Speaker
So that's another and interesting idea that they could move on and play with. you know what What are the tropes of your life when your life is an open book in the media? Yeah, there's a
Future of the Scream Franchise and Podcast Wrap-up
01:41:39
Speaker
lot. Again, it's more than just it's more than just like, oh, it's a quirky take on on on this horror subgenre. it It does have a whole lot to say about...
01:41:53
Speaker
movies outside of its genre, in its genre, etc. And can continue doing so. And i like I look forward to the future of this franchise. Me too.
01:42:05
Speaker
Me too. Well, now I think we've put a bow on it. We've had a coda. Yep. Any final thoughts? ah I'm definitely going to try and see Scream 7 myself. I recommend it.
01:42:21
Speaker
See if I can find some time for that. At that point then, I will just say once again, thanks everyone for joining us for Casual Nerdity. Thanks for letting us ramble for about two hours about some metatextual horror movies.
01:42:38
Speaker
Hopefully, do you find something intriguing about this? Less talking about the the lore and story, but more about the mechanics of story. Yep.
01:42:50
Speaker
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Speaker
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01:43:07
Speaker
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01:43:37
Speaker
Feed it. But thank you, everyone. We hope you join us next time when we should be back with Clone Watch, where we will be listening to Betsy's Walzo text.
01:43:48
Speaker
hu Spoiler alert, she is offended that the visual representation that I gave of her walls of text were not was not big enough. But thank you again for joining us, and we hope to see you next time. So long.
01:44:04
Speaker
Bye.
01:44:07
Speaker
This has been Casual Nerdity. We hope you've enjoyed your time with us and look forward to having you back.