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Working Within the System - Philippe Schuler on sustainability, capitalism and the path forward
23 Plays3 days ago
Philippe Schuler is a consultant, photographer, and author with the purpose of reconnecting us with nature. Through Quest, he advises organisations on their positive impact on nature. He captures landscapes and wildlife that remind us of its beauty, and in his book, The Wise Man & The Story of Plenty, he invites the world to see through his eyes and never look at the planet the same way again.
About the FutureStrategies podcast and your host:
I’m Florian Schleicher, a marketing strategist. I help brands gain clarity, spark momentum, and turn strategy into something that actually moves people. In 2022, I started my marketing studio FUTURESTRATEGIES. to do exactly that. I currently work with corporate clients from 11 countries.
If you want more, check out my FutureStrategies newsletter – monthly inspiration on marketing, strategy and sustainability.
And if something’s blocking your brand from doing its best work, let’s talk.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
I do feel that those businesses who are not going to do it are going to be left behind and they are going to maybe do some short term profits now thinking about it, but they will be left behind. Welcome to the Future Strategies podcast. My name is Florian Schleicher. I'm a marketing strategist focused on sustainability and I'm your host here. You can listen to my interviews with international experts. And together we will explore where marketing strategies and sustainability intersect. With great examples, insightful stories and a look behind the scenes of some amazing brands. If you're curious how to apply all of that for your own business, I do this for my clients from all around the world.
00:00:40
Speaker
But more on that at the end of this episode. Now let's jump into today's interview.
00:00:48
Speaker
Today I'm talking with Philipp Schuler. He's a consultant, photographer and author with the purpose of reconnecting us with nature. Through Quest, he advises organizations on their positive impact on nature.
00:01:01
Speaker
He captures landscapes and wildlife that remind us of its beauty. And in his recent book, The Wise Man and the Story of Plenty, he invites the world to see through his eyes and never look at the planet the same way again.
00:01:15
Speaker
Very good to have you today here with me, Philipp. Hey, Flo. So good to have tuna invited me and so happy to be here. Thank you so much. Good to see you. Good to see you again. So we were colleagues at Too Good to Go a long time ago. It seems like it was a different life. I agree.
00:01:31
Speaker
And have been in contact ever since. And now you just published your first book, something I both envy and massively respect you for. And in your book, you write about how we got into the current mess, that is the climate crisis, and also what the sustainability movement might need right now.
00:01:51
Speaker
And so today i would like to really walk through some of the chapters of the book, things that that stuck with me and where I also had questions. So in the first chapters, you go into back into the human history. And what do you think that you also learned from going back in history about the state of the climate crisis?
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, so I learned so much. i have to be honest. i Since a young age, I've been very passionate about geography and history. So I always had this kind of tendency to to look back in order to look forward and to kind of learn from ah past achievements, obstacles that humanity has gone through. But to be honest, by going back to it, it a lot of clicks started happening in my head. A lot of things where I thought, okay, well, this makes sense. This is why and this has all happened in that sense. um You know,
00:02:48
Speaker
just small things such as, you know, why are cities close to water? For me, it was never like something that I thought about. ah For me, it was like, yeah, of course, they want to be close to the coast because it's nice to be next to water.
00:02:58
Speaker
But actually, no, you know, we need access to water. All the cities are close to the rivers because of transportation, because of how trade used to happen, because of our need to use water in everything that we are producing and in what we're eating. um So, you know, these kinds of things and how civilizations, you know, went from uprising to downfall just because there was not enough water happening, for example. So all these different things for me just started to click by looking back. And I think This is also where for me, you know, it also really opened my eyes into understanding how was it back in the day, you know, not thinking about it nostalgically, but just thinking, you know, where are we right now? And, you know, what can we learn from how it used to be? And I think that's why it's important to to really go back, to go back in time and And I actually love that part of the book the most um because it's also about, you know, my book is 200 pages and to really break down the history of humanity and only, I don't know what it is, 30 pages.
00:04:01
Speaker
That wasn't an easy task. um So to really dilute it down and to really come back to the basics and and really bring it into a storyline. I think that that was ah a great challenge and I loved it and learned a lot on in the process. You then go on and you write about also deregulation and the lesser fair kind of style as the things that enabled humanity to grow and thrive.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I would be curious, do you think we need more regulation and less lesser fair right now? For me, it's really important because often also when when speaking to people, you know they always say, and and and for good reason, of course, they also say, oh fossil fuels is the evil. you know Why did we even think about it? you know why Why did we even come to this point?
00:04:44
Speaker
And at the end of the day, you have to remember that all the development that we have gone through as humanity and and the rapid industrialization and how we really went from the caves all the way now to to to skyscrapers and able to kind of be the dominant force on planet Earth the way we are, is because of those fossil fuels that was so readily available. And, you know, that we could take as much as we want whenever we wanted it. You know, it was really like... ah the the great acceleration, as some call it, you know, it was really about taking more and more and more.
00:05:15
Speaker
And when it comes to your question, when it comes to regulation, well, ultimately we do need it, right? Because we have come to a point where it's no longer feasible for us or businesses to continue with business as usual, to just keep on doing the same thing as we have done before, to just keep on taking, taking, taking from nature. It's about setting those boundaries and it's about regulating it. You know, how much can we actually take? How much do we have to stay within those boundaries in order for things not to get worse? So it is really important to to look into that and to really set those limits.
00:05:45
Speaker
And what I also find interesting that you mentioned fossil fuels. I recently stumbled upon a documentary about time before fossil fuels and what did we use before that? It was whale oil.
00:05:57
Speaker
yeah So actually, that was a relief for many people that we don't have to go whale hunting anymore. And we have found a better solution only to then realize, okay, this is also not the best solution.
00:06:08
Speaker
And I think that's the beautiful part. You know, you learn as you go. you you then all You might come up with solutions and it might seem as something better, but you create a new problem with it. I think that's really also the crux of what I wanted to get in the in the book as well, is that over time you become wiser. That's why the book is called The Wise Man, because of us, homo sapiens, if you translate that literally, we are called the wise man. So, of course, over time, we become wiser, we learn from it and we we think of the consequences certain decisions take, which at the moment might seem like a good idea. But over time, actually, we make things worse and looking at whales. So they have the oil part. But we also used to um
00:06:48
Speaker
you know, take elephant tusks to make B-Eat balls. Right. And it's also okay. What? You just play B-Eat? You killed the elephants? And then they thought that's no longer feasible, which is us. We think, okay, that's great. But then they made it into plastic, which is also great now if you use it only a single use. So, you know, it's all this.
00:07:08
Speaker
you you You never maybe find the perfect answer. You learn with it over time. And I think that's the beautiful part in many ways as well, that we become wiser with time and that we have to take advantage of that wisdom and and and make better decisions. Yeah.
00:07:23
Speaker
What I particularly liked also about reading your book was the way you explain things in a very graphic kind of way. Like I have all these images that that you really put into the reader's mind while reading it. And you also wrote in one chapter about...
00:07:42
Speaker
the kings and queens that now really are corporations that rule everything. So I'd be curious, what is your take on who is the most powerful source at the moment? Is it corporations? Is it politics? Is it people?
00:07:56
Speaker
Who has the biggest lever when it comes to a transition to a more sustainable economy? In my opinion, it's corporations. It really is. And the reason why I'm saying that is that we live in a capitalist world, whether we want it or not. And that capitalist world it has been designed around an economy that is based on short term profits and making shareholders happy. That's why businesses are acting in such a way. And it's about, you know, a lot of power that is going to those companies. And you would think, you know, a lot of those CEOs of those major companies might actually have more power than most presidents around the world. they really have because of their global supply chains because of the shareholders that they have behind them because of all employees working for them the gdp that they are creating sometimes is bigger than an entire nation so corporations i think have the biggest lever and that's also why i work as a consultant why i work with quest and and really helping corporations on their way towards a more sustainable ecosystem because
00:08:57
Speaker
They need the right tools and they need the right information to make that change happen. But it's without them, it will never work. you know In a world that we have created now, if we don't have businesses on board, we will never make it work. and And so it's crucial to have them on board to make sure that they lobby in the right way and for the right regulation, not for the wrong things. um If you look at COP, the amount of lobbyists from companies going to these organizations trying to lobby against certain ah climate frameworks is for me is astonishing. right that How that is is possible.
00:09:30
Speaker
But that's that's where we are right now. So it is these corporations that have that power. You write about the thing that we now have the knowledge, like we understand what the problem is, that we also have the capabilities.
00:09:47
Speaker
but not the perceived urgency. What do you think needs to change in order to perceive that urgency? Do we need an even bigger crisis? Because my my but personal observation is most people only change when there is lots of pain. Yeah, I think that is the million dollar question. I really think, right? It's how do we act now before it's too late and before so many more people will really bear the cost of it. And The horrible part about it is that the vast majority of people that will experience the worst of the climate crisis, but also the whole planetary crisis, so it's not only the climate, you know it's also biodiversity, it's the ocean, it's everything, how everything is interconnected, will be the ones who have contributed the least. It's the least developed countries, it's the global south, particularly who will bear the consequences. And, you know, the global north can think and sit back and say, well, you know, we can just wait and see what happens.
00:10:48
Speaker
That being said, we are already seeing the consequences of the climate crisis. And we are already seeing floods. We're seeing droughts. You know, we're seeing massive snowstorms. that are unprecedented, hurricanes that are destroying entire villages. So for me, it's about connecting the dots and really informing the public that this is not something that is extraordinary or like something that's like, oh, that's that will happen in 100 years. No, this is going to be every day going forward and it's only going to get worse.
00:11:18
Speaker
And I think the media has a massive opportunity, but also, you know, responsibility to inform people in the right way. And so do politicians. And and so we as a public really need to understand that if we don't want things to get worse, then we need to start acting differently.
00:11:38
Speaker
And we need to start connecting the dots, which at the moment we are not. We're seeing things in very isolated terms. We might understand that we are in a crisis. But we still feel that we can sit back and think, oh, but 2050 is when all the goals are and it's only 1.5 degrees increase.
00:11:56
Speaker
That's not two degrees yet. So we can just sit back. So we need to get those messages out. And um that's for me, that's the only way. And that's also why I wrote the book in the first place, to really make people understand that It is really the urgency really is there now. It's not too late. We should not feel depressed. We should not feel hopeless because that's the worst thing that can happen. I speak to a lot of people and that have climate anxiety and that really feel like i've I've stopped working sustainability because my body can't take it anymore.
00:12:27
Speaker
And that for me is, you know, then we have failed. You know, that for me is like that's the that then really that that would be detrimental if we really start giving up because there's so much to fight for.
00:12:39
Speaker
And at the end of the day, you know, and that's why I always tell people when they say save our planet, I never say save our planet. Yeah, the planet will be here. Planet will not disappear. It's not going to go out of the universe all of a sudden.
00:12:52
Speaker
We are going to be disappearing. We are going to be disappearing. Our world is going to change a whole way if we don't change things around. But our planet will be here. the The thing that you touched upon here, is this optimism that we need to keep, I think that's very important.
00:13:09
Speaker
No invention ever has been done by a pessimistic person. And if we just say, okay, yeah, everything's fucked, let's just stop doing anything, then we are going to be fucked.
00:13:21
Speaker
And also, I think that there were lots of mistakes done in the sustainability movement. I've been working at Greenpeace, then we both worked at Too Good To Go. But I think The sustainability movement per se, it focused a lot on numbers, which are all true, on facts, but nothing that really excites people. yeah And what you said about people who have climate anxiety, and then we have movements like the last generation movement.
00:13:48
Speaker
And I feel like that's the completely wrong approach, because if we say we're the last generation, then why should we change anything? yeah Maybe they said it was the last generation to make a change, I guess, or to turn things around.
00:14:00
Speaker
Maybe, I don't know. Maybe that's why they call it that way. I don't know. but but But it feels very pessimistic to to yeah to say it like that. I see what you mean. now One last thing about the the problems and then I would like to also talk a little bit about the paths maybe out out of this.
00:14:17
Speaker
In one chapter, you write that all we need is political will, citizen uprisings, and the reshuffle of what it means to do business. And I thought that that sounds almost impossible.
00:14:31
Speaker
yeah
00:14:34
Speaker
And yet, ah looking on a positive side, it is happening. Right. and Of course, it is not done ah on the global level just yet. It's not done on the scale that we so should happen.
00:14:47
Speaker
But at the same time, I do think that there are politicians out there who have that within them to to really push for this and to see that you know renewable energy is the only way forward. you know And it's like they're investing in it and and see it you know as the only way that it's going to be possible.
00:15:06
Speaker
The uprising for me is happening as well. You have seen it with the mass protests. I know it's been many years since Greta Thunberg really has been vocal and has been pushing it, but she created a movement, especially in the younger generations that are pushing their parents, that are pushing schools, that are pushing people in the right way.
00:15:25
Speaker
And we should never neglect that. And I think we should never give up on it. And we should never silence each and every one of them. And for me, when it comes to businesses, I agree, we are still some way off.
00:15:37
Speaker
But I work with a lot of corporations and, you know, especially now with new compliance coming in, um with them also understanding the amount of cost savings that they can do from sustainability, the operational efficiencies they can do from it.
00:15:52
Speaker
They see also that employees are asking for it, that investors are asking for it, you know that money talks and then they start realizing I will need to do something about this. It's no longer enough to just do a sustainability report.
00:16:06
Speaker
I really need to start digging into this further. And that is encouraging. My only question is, is it going to happen fast enough and do a lot of them really mean it and really embed it in their business?
00:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's going to be a matter of time where we realize that. But I do feel that those businesses who are not going to do it are going to be left behind and they are going to maybe do some short term profits now thinking about it, but they will be left behind.
00:16:32
Speaker
Let's talk about some of the good examples. What are some brands apart from Patagonia, please, because everybody's talking about them all the time. What are some of the brands that you feel like are on the right track and are doing good and how are they doing it? So, of course, you see like For me, brands, you can always put them into different tiers, right? So I think there's a lot of amazing brands out there, particularly within circular economy, but very often, you know, they lack the scale as of now, or they lack the funding to basically push their solutions through.
00:17:01
Speaker
There's a lot of amazing examples, and particularly um in circular fashion. i know a company called EcoAlf, for example, which I'm a very big fan of. who are doing fantastic work from Spain, really building in circular economy and showing to the world that it's not about making products that are for single use or really throwing them away after a couple of months, but really building in this kind of circular principles in there and being successful.
00:17:26
Speaker
you know how How are they doing that? From the materials that they're using. So um primarily, first of all, going completely away from polyester. ah Polyester is partially made up of of plastic material and of oil. So it's very heavily reliant on fossil fuels. A lot of companies are using it because it's supposed to be you know, the the cheapest way of going about it um and durable, but it's very far from being durable. So a lot of companies are tending towards it, but they are showing that there's actually different ways of going about it. And there are different materials out there. such as cotton, wool, you know, also other materials that are made up of of fibers, etc., which can really lead the way.
00:18:06
Speaker
For me, it's always about these solutions. It's about incentives also from the government that they invest and and subsidize these kind of materials so that they become the mainstream. I think that's at the moment, that's where I see the biggest challenges when it comes to circular economy, that the subsidies that are currently being put into fossil fuels, that are being put into industries that are actually degrading our environment, that those subsidies are put into the actual solutions that help it. The same thing happens also in the food system. Why do we keep on subsidizing the meat industry, the dairy industry? Even though we know it's completely inefficient the way ah we use the resources to make that kind of food and the impact it has on the environment, on our own health, you know it's just not right.
00:18:50
Speaker
So why don't we use those subsidies to push for more regenerative agriculture, to think of better ways? you know And there are amazing... solutions out there, they just lack the funding and they lack the scale.
00:19:01
Speaker
um And so many fail because they don't have it. And I think that is for me is the the crux of the issue where a lot of where the money goes, it really needs to go towards the solutions.
00:19:11
Speaker
So I feel like Ecoelf is a very good example on on what can be achieved. There are others like Patagonia, of course, we mentioned Oatly, Reformation. um i wrote about one of the examples in my recent trend report, Red Wing shoes that are per se not a sustainable company, but they are offering a lot of benefits for for customers. And this is per se sustainable if they say you have a lifelong warranty on your shoe. That's sustainability without talking about sustainability, actually. That's even better, yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
I feel like we should, in a way, stop talking about sustainability. That's my controversial opinion. I think we should not put any more effort into coining the word, into saying the phrases, because everybody, whenever they hear sustainability, they're like, oh, not again. What do are we talking about right now? I think it has to just become an inherent part of business. How you do business, as you mentioned, there there was recently a study by the consultancy Bain where they found the 25% of global greenhouse gas emissions can actually be abated with a positive ROI.
00:20:14
Speaker
So we know that you can actually make money when you do something sustainable and that will increase that that share. And I feel like this is the way we need to go into and really inform all employees also on what they can do in order to help.
00:20:31
Speaker
There is one movement within the sustainability bubble, ah so to say, that is advocating for degrowth. And I would be very curious what your thoughts are on degrowth.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard a lot about it. um For me, and this is my personal opinion, right? But i my for me, that is seems quite idealistic um in terms of where we are right now.
00:21:01
Speaker
um What I prefer to do is thinking of the system we have right now and the economic system that we have right now and adapting that in such a way that we can create the biggest amount of impact. So that means I also hear a lot like Noemi Klein, for example. i love her. She's fantastic, amazing books.
00:21:19
Speaker
yeah But I tend to disagree with a lot of things she says as well, because I feel that we cannot move away from capitalism that quickly and it just won't happen fast enough. And yes, I agree with a lot of things, you know, that it's not right in the capitalistic world and the way we are overproducing and overconsuming has to change.
00:21:36
Speaker
But by just offering a new system such as also for the growth, I fear that we're going to lose a lot of people and we're going to change a system that has been there for so long that hasn't happened overnight, like the capitalistic world that didn't happen overnight um and where we are right now.
00:21:53
Speaker
And so I would really prefer that we look at it in the way we are doing it right now. How can we adapt it and regulate it and drive it forward? using what we have right now and making it better. Because for me, that's the most proactive way and where we happen to make action straight away without thinking too much of changing the entire system.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you. I also have sometimes these discussions where people say, yeah, we need degrowth and we need to get rid of capitalism. Then I say yes to both, but...
00:22:25
Speaker
this won't be We won't be able to do this within our lifetime. We're going to lose a lot of people on the way because that's how our society is built right now. And I feel like we need to work within the frame that we have. And that just is capitalism.
00:22:42
Speaker
And if we find ways and to make money with sustainability, And I feel like we can find those ways. and And the study that I mentioned, I think points the way I feel like that's the direction we need to move into.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah, and I think just also looking, you know, always I think we always have to look at a global point of view and and not always stick to the global north and to also think about, you know, what is happening in Asia and Latin America and Africa, where a lot of countries are being lifted out of poverty and are being lifted to a greater competitiveness also because of capitalism, right? Also because of ah the way they're doing it. And what rights does it give?
00:23:23
Speaker
What right do we have to say to them? Well, you're not allowed to do this because we have done it for so long. We're now so competitive. You're not allowed to do it the same way. So I think we should instead look ourselves in the mirror and say, what can we learn from the things that we have done wrong within the system and tell them about it and fund them, subsidize them.
00:23:43
Speaker
take them by the hand and say, listen, you can grow, but do it in a responsible way within that system. And I do believe that that is possible. I really do believe you know that you can And Too Good to Go is a perfect example. Right. I think we both worked at it. It is a company that is making profit, is growing like hell, but it's doing an impact and a positive impact on the world. You know, those social impact companies do exist. And it's just about encouraging them, getting the voices out and showing that there is a way within this system.
00:24:15
Speaker
um And for me, that that's the crucial part where we are right now and what will take the biggest amount of impact. now This was almost the answer to the next question that i want to ask you, but I would still like to to give it to you because I would be curious.
00:24:32
Speaker
These are not easy times for the sustainability movement. So what makes you optimistic about the future? i'm I'm very optimistic about the future, because and primarily because of all the things that I've learned in my book, um which is really going back into the past, knowing that we have been through so many challenges as humanity, so many obstacles, failures,
00:24:58
Speaker
things where we felt, OK, this is the end of it. And I really believe that people back then thought, OK, well, this but they might not have it the global outlook the way we have it. We're so interconnected now. They might have had only the the one in front of them.
00:25:12
Speaker
But there were so many bleak moments in our history and we pushed through and we we managed to come out of it and thrive. And I really feel that that is what we what will happen here as well. My only concern, as I told you, is, is it going to happen fast enough? Is it going to happen in such a way that not many people will suffer from it first, especially those that have contributed the least indigenous communities? particularly you know low-lying, smaller island countries, which are going to bear the brunt of what we're doing.
00:25:44
Speaker
That, for me, is what is the biggest concern. And also, you know in terms of the whole climate justice aspect of things, for me, that is where I feel we need a lot. Yeah, we we really need to look ourselves in the mirror and feel, okay, is this really...
00:25:57
Speaker
the way we should go about it or can we each and every one of us make a difference not only for ourselves but also the people around us and not only think about future generations a lot of people think oh now that you have a child ah do you look at things differently to be honest no because for me all the people around me all the species around me not even humanity also you know the species we share this planet with For me, they are equally as important as just, for example, my child, for example, right now. it's's ah For me, that's the truth. right It's not only looking at ah future generations, it's also looking at what is it right now, who are suffering right now because of what we're doing. It's not what is going to happen in 10 years. It's right now.
00:26:38
Speaker
And I think that is what keeps me going every day, gets me out of bed. So it's it it yeah it's a fire that is burning inside of me and I don't think it will go far it will go away.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Before we close this up, I would like to ask you the three final questions that I ask everybody here on on the show. So um our audience are mostly people working in marketing and you are not per se a marketeer, but I would be curious as you also have touch points with a lot of marketing people like myself or like Carlos.
00:27:11
Speaker
What is good marketing to you in three words? Empathy.
00:27:18
Speaker
Authenticity and I would say tailored. What is the future of marketing? No more greenwashing. Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker
Let's hope for that. yeah um Yeah, I would say i think i had a conversation with somebody the other day and I quite liked it is to find a middle point between green hushing and green washing, which is green trusting. So new term yeah so really building that and you know not being afraid to say something that you're doing good, but also not making sure that you don't say something that is just not true. So finding that middle ground. and building trust through your sustainability initiatives and yeah the way you work. So I think that for me is marketing of the future. yeah
00:28:06
Speaker
Last question. We talked about your book, but I would be curious, what is another book that you would like to recommend here? Well, i can I can recommend my favorite book. My favorite book of all times is The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari.
00:28:20
Speaker
I recommend it to every person I meet. um I think a lot of my friends have read it, a lot of my mentors and colleagues, um just because I recommended it. Because for me, the way I think and do my outlook in life and the way I found my purpose, and I think it's so important to find your purpose, is thanks to that book.
00:28:40
Speaker
It really is ah is quite a short book. It's very easy to read. You can read it in a weekend. but it will open your eyes and make you look at life very, very differently and hopefully bring you on a path to yeah more enlightenment, to greater things. And so I fully recommend that one. It's not a marketing book per se, I would say, but I do feel that each and every one of us should have their style, their direction that they want in life. And that will that will help you along the way.
00:29:07
Speaker
You're not the first person recommending me that, so I will now definitely check it out. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're very welcome. And thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show. As always, it's a pleasure to be talking with you. Thank you for taking time for sharing your perspectives. I will put your book also in the show notes.
00:29:26
Speaker
And um yeah, I look forward to our next conversation, Philipp. Yeah. Thank you so much, Flo. Really good seeing you. Thank you. See you. Ciao, ciao. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening.
00:29:37
Speaker
If you've enjoyed this episode, please forward it to a friend or colleague. This would mean the world to me as I pour my heart and a lot of energy into producing this podcast with all the brilliant minds that share their perspective here.
00:29:52
Speaker
And if you know the value that a great marketing strategy brings to really connect with your target audience, give me a call or send me a message. I'd love to get to know you and your projects.
00:30:03
Speaker
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00:30:14
Speaker
Again, thank you so much for listening. I really look forward to sharing more with you in the future.