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💚 Sustainability must be sexy - Grazia Nordberg from aehre Magazine
65 Plays8 days ago
Grazia Nordberg is the founder and managing partner of LOEBELL NORDBERG, a communications agency based in Vienna - in March 2023 she started AEHRE a sustainability business magazine for the German Speaking area. With it she wants to build a communicative bridge between the economy and sustainability.
The magazine is full of fresh stories that surprise, about people, solutions and conveys a lightness that is often missed in other sustainability focussed content. They focus on activation, rethinking, motivation.
About the FutureStrategies podcast and Florian:
Hi, my name is Florian Schleicher I am a marketing strategist focussed on sustainability. Having worked with big corporates, NGOs, start-ups and agencies for over 15 years, I know my way around a lot of challenges. Let me help solve your challenges with my know-how and my Marketing Studio FUTURES.
Also: If you enjoy reading, be sure to check out my FutureStrategies newsletter. I write about marketing, strategies and sustainability available every three weeks and I am sure you will find a lot of exciting and helpful insights there.
And if you have a challenge that keeps you and your company from doing your best work and this challenge is about marketing, strategies or sustainability, then I’d love to get to know you and your projects!
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Transcript
Sustainability and its Consequences
00:00:00
Speaker
It means thinking about the consequences of your doing in any case. And this is for me, it's sustainability. Welcome to the future strategies podcast. My name is Florian Schleicher. I'm a marketing strategist focused on sustainability and I'm your host here.
Podcast Introduction: Marketing and Sustainability
00:00:17
Speaker
Every two weeks you can listen to my interviews with international experts and together we will explore where marketing strategies and sustainability intersect with great examples, insightful stories and a look behind the scenes of some amazing brands.
00:00:33
Speaker
If you're curious how to apply all of that for your own business, I do this for my clients from all around the world through inspiring workshops, guiding mentorings, and an exciting on online academy.
00:00:43
Speaker
But more on that at the end of this episode.
Meet Grazia Nordberg: Connecting Economy and Sustainability
00:00:46
Speaker
Now let's jump into today's interview. My guest today is Grazia Nordberg. She's the founder and managing partner of Lebel Nordberg, a communications agency based in Vienna.
00:00:59
Speaker
In March 2023, she started ERE, a sustainability business magazine for the German-speaking area. With it, she wants to build a communicative bridge between the economy and sustainability.
00:01:12
Speaker
The magazine is about people, solutions, and conveys a lightness that is often missed in other sustainability-focused content. They focus on activation, rethinking, and motivation.
00:01:24
Speaker
So I think we'll have a lot to talk
Storytelling in Sustainability: Balance and Challenges
00:01:26
Speaker
about. Garcia, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So you know what I think that we both have in common? I think we both want to give a stage to sustainability stories or sustainable stories, you with your magazine.
00:01:40
Speaker
And one more thing, I think we are both pragmatists. Do you agree? Yes, i'm I'm very pragmatic, but I'm also very pragmatic in not only as a journalist or a communication expert and also pragmatic because I think sustainability is the only way of an innovative business and of any kind of future entrepreneurship and management.
00:02:02
Speaker
I'm a student of the 90s and um that was like sustainability. That was the book of Al Gore and he wrote that book, Sustainable Management, which was the only book ever written, I think, at but at this time.
00:02:15
Speaker
And if he if he wouldn't have been Al Gore and the vice president of the U.S., nobody would have read it, actually. And I wrote my master thesis like 30 years ago about sustainable management.
00:02:29
Speaker
And I found it now when I was back home with my parents' place. And it's quite interesting. It's still' but it's very technical. yeah And there is no storytelling at all. It's all about figures and economic impact and macroeconomic impact.
00:02:45
Speaker
But there is not very much impact on purpose. This was not nothing everybody should ever have thought about. And there is nothing about communication and marketing at this time. It was a very macroeconomic impact. It was not wrong. It was the the kickoff and the start.
00:03:04
Speaker
But I think today, and this is what we and you are doing with our companies, so I think there's so much more in it. Yeah. So I think the challenge is finding the right balance between environmental responsibility in the stories, but also make it entertaining.
00:03:22
Speaker
Because we live in a world where everybody wants to be entertained all the time and people open their Instagram and TikTok streams just to get distracted from their busy lives and from all from all the fears and worries that they have.
00:03:36
Speaker
And so I think one of the challenges with sustainability in particular is it's not an easy topic. It's not a light topic because we're talking about an enormous impact that it will have the climate crisis on our lives, on our future.
00:03:51
Speaker
How do you approach that in your magazines? um I just want to go back two years ago and the reason why we set up this magazine, because this was I think this answers your question.
Corporate Communication and Greenwashing Concerns
00:04:03
Speaker
A couple of years, we started with CSR communication. Yeah. I mean, some people still know what CSR is because it's a term which is going to vanish um more about.
00:04:15
Speaker
but And we had clients and they said, once a year, we have to do a CSR thing because... The corporate or the headquarter anywhere, they need the CSR clippings and we have to do this.
00:04:26
Speaker
And we tried to, we were looking for some CSR impact and this was always a green energy thing or photovoltaic stuff and things like this. It was very boring, in fact.
00:04:38
Speaker
And then then the regulation started and it got more boring and people were really afraid about this because I think on the one hand, it's a good thing. On the other one, it's a very technical thing. And they were very afraid to talk about this because nobody had an idea how they can manage this, not from big, not to small.
00:04:56
Speaker
And we as communication experts and working together with these clients always said, There are so good things you are doing. They are so interesting. let's Let's talk about these things.
00:05:07
Speaker
Tell other people how how you how you manage your solutions and what is all about this. And this is not only about the startups, the small startups, the green startups. It's also about the big bad ah players in the market. They also start doing really good stuff.
00:05:23
Speaker
And nobody dared talking about this because on the one hand, climate change is a very sad topic. Yeah. It's very sad. it's anxious it's It's anxious. It's sad. We have a lot of anxiety on the other side. Everybody is a blaming game. Everybody is blaming others.
00:05:41
Speaker
There are no solutions presented because everybody's afraid that if you talk about the solution, there are others and come talk about greenwashing and, and, and, and um You have a shit storm on in the internet.
00:05:55
Speaker
You know this. yeah And then we started, and but but did we didn't give up because I think I'm a positive thinking person still.
Youth and Global Perspectives on Sustainability
00:06:02
Speaker
yeah And I think you you need some role models and some good ideas which motivate others.
00:06:09
Speaker
And as we ah talked before this podcast, with two I also told you this when I started dealing with the sustainability topic, i'm i'm I'm born in the 70s. There was no sustainability.
00:06:21
Speaker
I was raised up as a kid as no sustainability at all. yeah And people changed, the young generation changes and it's no there's no way of not being in a sustainable mindset anymore. And this has nothing to do with if you're rich or poor ah where you live, actually.
00:06:41
Speaker
So we set up this magazine because we wanted to present ideas from um all over the world. It's not only Austrian ideas, but they are ideas from other countries.
00:06:51
Speaker
They are really interesting, but they are also entertaining. And they are not far away from from from our personal reality because everybody can, in in the smallest offices and agencies and enterprises, you can do a lot of things, which the big companies maybe invented or some crazy startups invented.
00:07:15
Speaker
And it's a community and it only only helps if we all think together. do it together and work together. And i what I think is a very positive thing is that sustainability still is a topic where there's no competition. yeah yeah Even with our magazine, we are not competed by other magazines.
00:07:35
Speaker
We are invited by the community. we ah we have We set up a community. We are part of a community. I think there's a lot of good emotion and good storytelling. yeah And I think, and this is what you were doing as well with marketing, I think that sustainability has to be sexy.
00:07:52
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. It has to be cool and sexy. We are not going to do this if this is a niche thing. I think it has to be sexy and cool and an everyday way of purpose. thinking and Because otherwise we will always only attract people.
00:08:09
Speaker
the super green eco-friendly hipsters. and And this is an important community, don't get me wrong, but in order to drive mainstream change and big change, we need everybody on board or at least plus 50%.
Non-Green Industries and Inclusive Initiatives
00:08:23
Speaker
And I completely agree with you on the the fact that you don't have a competition as a magazine.
00:08:29
Speaker
This was the same when I was head of marketing at Too Good To Go. We were constantly asked, who is your competition? And the thing that I always said is, It's the bin, the waste bin that is our competition. yeah Everybody else who wants to fight food waste is in the same boat as we are. We are in this game to get rid of food waste.
00:08:48
Speaker
So everybody who can help is welcome. You told me about the stories that you have in a magazine. What are your one, two, three favorite stories of the last couple of magazines?
00:09:03
Speaker
One of my favorite stories was our first story, actually. And this is maybe, it was the interview with Toto Wolf and his daughter, Rosy. Because this is also, we wanted to set up something different and do not like this green niche thing.
00:09:19
Speaker
and wanted to show that every industry has a green impact, even if it's not a green industry like the Formula One. And um since I know Toto, and he was also ah very fond of the magazine, and I told him the story, what we're going to do. And he's an entrepreneur, and he was a stage one incubator many, many years ago with his March 15 companies. And now he's a Formula One boss and ah one of the most famous people in the world in India. in an industry that ah first sight is not really green.
00:09:50
Speaker
and It is not green. We don't have to talk about this. But I wanted to make this interview with this daughter. And they do have a discussion about measures that are taken in the Formula One, which are definitely, they also have a program like 2030.
00:10:06
Speaker
But also like being a father in times like this, being a role model for other ah startup enterprises. And this was one of my favorite things. yeah Because it is so disruptive and so weird talking with Toto Wolf about sustainability in motorsports.
00:10:25
Speaker
yeah But on the other hand, we have a very nice talk at the the um actual magazine about a concept store, a coffee shop. which a friend of mine set up with her Down syndrome daughter and her other daughter. And these two women doing this for the last couple of years, they set up this guyis lara in Vienna and they work together. They have fun together. It's a hard work.
00:10:50
Speaker
And the reason was it's a family business that Francie, the daughter with Down syndrome has the possibility to have a job and an enterprise and to work like in an everyday basis.
00:11:02
Speaker
and that she can work for her living. And and this is a really, really nice story. So we have totally different angles. we We talk about sustainability and inclusion and diversity.
Mainstream Engagement in Sustainability Efforts
00:11:15
Speaker
It may be the Formula One motorsports. But there are also people behind it. The purpose and the impact and the idea of generations and sustainability, it's quite the same.
00:11:25
Speaker
Yeah. I love those stories. and And I love what you said about the blame game and that this will not help us. I always say that whenever we talk about black or white, or let's call it black and green, we'll not make any progress.
00:11:40
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Sustainability is not a destination, it's a progress. But we'll have to carry the mainstream of people with us.
00:11:50
Speaker
And for that, we need to have also companies like in Formula One, like a plastic producer who can reduce their impact. Of course. But when we talk about black and white, I think we also need to address the orange elephant in the room.
00:12:06
Speaker
Sustainability in 2025, with Donald Trump being now president and having drawn back of the Paris Agreement, we also know that the EU might be lowering standards for the sustainable reporting ah standards.
00:12:20
Speaker
So what is your take on a global scale? Is sustainability still as relevant as it was last year? Of course it is. I think Donald Trump will not change the world in the next couple of years.
00:12:33
Speaker
I think that it's in the mindset of the people. I'm not so pessimistic. yeah Maybe if you set down some regulations, it's not it gets easier for European economy because this overregulated thing is also very difficult.
00:12:49
Speaker
in very difficult economic times like we are in now. And maybe this is ah it's ah it' it's it just goes in the wrong direction. I'm not an expert in macroeconomics, but I think if I talk to people and even in my personal mindset, I will never take a plastic straw again.
00:13:06
Speaker
It doesn't matter what Donald Trump thinks and is doing. And I think everything that started, one is on the legislation and the big regulative level, I think, which is much more important is the personal attitude, people, especially also the older people, because the young people, they do have it.
00:13:26
Speaker
have on these things. And I think a lot of stuff changed and there is no way back. We are not going to back to medieval times. Every progress you make, you're not going back. Maybe it goes a little slower.
00:13:39
Speaker
Maybe we don't have, can spend so much money on initiatives like this because we have other stuff to do or problems. But I think Donald Trump is not, this is also blaming game. You can sit here and say, oh, Donald Trump, Donald Trump, you know,
00:13:54
Speaker
The thing is Donald a Trump is just it's not just, he's a very um crazy and risky guy. But if we don't play this game in our day-to-day business and if we um if check our waste and if we try to reduce our bad energy things and if we try to live, ah if we are have an inclusive way of thinking,
00:14:18
Speaker
Donald Trump and his anti-vogue movement can do whatever he wants to do. And even if I know from some companies, big international companies, that they put all the diversity stuff on the websites, as you heard.
00:14:30
Speaker
But I think at the end, um the way people behave in the companies will not change that dramatically. I
Motivations and Definitions in Sustainability
00:14:39
Speaker
completely agree. and And some of the things that I think we need to put into perspective, nature, the climate doesn't care about policies.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yes. Like whatever Donald Trump, whatever the EU decides will have impacts in the next 5, 10, 20 years. And then there will be an outside pressure to change. And also looking at things like Texas, for example, where it is now cheaper to get energy through solar.
00:15:07
Speaker
than through fossil fuels. So it becomes an issue, not of like, and i do I want to do something good, but do I want to save money? And I think there we are at the motivation that is human.
00:15:18
Speaker
And I think so for a lot of things, and and this comes back, circling back to what you said about, we need to make sustainability sexy in a way. I think what we need to understand is, what do people really want?
00:15:31
Speaker
And I think what we did wrong in the sustainability movement us and people before us was talking so much about numbers. Like you mentioned the book from Al Gore about the macroeconomic perspective.
00:15:42
Speaker
And this is all true and right, but it doesn't move people actually, because people don't care about macroeconomics. They don't care about things that will affect them in 10 years.
00:15:54
Speaker
That's the power of stories, I think, is to show people, hey, this can have a real impact for you also, and this will create a world that is better. And what I think we need is those visions again.
00:16:06
Speaker
Donald Trump, you can say about him what you want, but he has a vision. It's a very going back in time kinds of vision. What we in the sustainability movement have lost a little bit is, okay, how how shall it look like?
00:16:20
Speaker
And here I want to ask you something else because sustainability is about getting rid of fossil fuels. it It's about getting rid of plastic straws. It's about banning pollution. It's about equal rights. It's about gender balance. It's about so many things now. And I think this is one of the problems also that it's it's just too much for people to really understand.
00:16:43
Speaker
Do you think we need a new definition for sustainability? I tell you what my definition of sustainability is. It means thinking about the consequences of your doing.
00:16:53
Speaker
In any case, it's sustainable because the consequence of the things you do, the consequence, how you treat people, how you treat migrants, how you treat people you think are different from you, the consequences, how you treat your colleagues at work, the consequences, you move, you commute every day to your to your to your workplace or you go on vacation, the consequences of what you eat, what you buy and what you what you throw away.
00:17:20
Speaker
And this is for me, it's sustainability. yeah It's the way we live and what are the consequences of our way of living. And what you and we both try to do is to motivate people to think about the consequences and to have a good feeling because we want to feel we don't want to feel bad all the time. no We want to feel better.
00:17:43
Speaker
And if I go on a beach in Thailand and I see that dirt on the beach, I'm going to pick it up. Yeah, because I don't want to have a dirt dirty beach and I don't care about Donald Trump at this moment or EU regulations.
00:17:58
Speaker
This is, yeah, we want to have a a clean beach. We and to have want to have a clean air. We want to feel good. We want to do, actually, we don't want to do any harm to anyone and anybody.
00:18:09
Speaker
And we forgot this. When I was raised up, nobody was thinking about this. Yeah. Yeah. We are much more aware today about the consequences of our being and doing.
00:18:20
Speaker
And this is sustainable behavior. And we in our magazine and you with your advisory, we want to give the people the purpose and the good story and entertainment for this.
00:18:34
Speaker
Absolutely. Now let me ask you another thing. I'm now 38 and i can see myself getting more pragmatic than I was 10 years ago.
00:18:45
Speaker
I know that we also need the incremental change. And not only the big shouting on the streets change, but then sometimes I encounter young people who are like, no, we need to change everything now.
00:18:59
Speaker
How do you deal with
Youth Impatience and Corporate Frustrations
00:19:01
Speaker
that? Because I get it. I get it that they are impatient. I've also been and that they are frustrated that things are not moving fast enough.
00:19:10
Speaker
How can we also not lose them and disillusionize them? I'm not sure. Do you think that the young people are so delusionized? I think they feel different guilty all the time because everything they do. I have a daughter. She's 24.
00:19:24
Speaker
Everything she does is bad. if she If she's traveling, it's bad. If she's shopping, it's bad. If she goes out for dinner, it's bad. Anything, that's that's the impression they have.
00:19:35
Speaker
yeah But I don't think that they are so delusionist. I think more, from my idea, more delusionist at the moment are the companies. Because i think we have the legislation and we have Donald, let's say Donald Trump. Yeah.
00:19:51
Speaker
Then we have these big corporates and the smaller corporates who have to deal with ideas of Donald Trump or Kikli or whoever that is. And then we have the consumers and the youngsters and and anyone who is like ah who has to cope with the situation and doesn't want to feel bad.
00:20:08
Speaker
From my perspective and my job even my ah job at the moment, I think that all the corporate the corporaterit environment is very frustrated. Mm-hmm. Because they spend such a lot of money and ideas and and marketing expenses and they really had good purpose.
00:20:26
Speaker
And it goes so slowly. And now the politics just come from the wrong wrong side again. and the and the And the economy is so bad because you have to afford sustainability somehow. yeah yeah I think the young, i think they are...
00:20:43
Speaker
but Being young and being impatient is just the same, isn't it? And being angry and young and impatient, I think in all stages, it's it's always the same.
00:20:53
Speaker
I think we should not demotivate them. I think that one of the problems that we have with politics and the economy is... In the economy, if if you are a good CEO, then you want to invest into the future because you want your business to to thrive. You want to have more revenue next year. And in order to do that, you need to invest, be that AI or be that sustainability because you're going to need it.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yes, but i can I would say that even a CEO who is there in the business for, let's see, four to 10 years is more interested in the personal at performance, which is not a long-term performance.
00:21:30
Speaker
Then a family business probably. Yeah. Actually i was doing this thesis 30 years ago with Adler Lacke, which is a family owned big company.
00:21:40
Speaker
And I worked together with the head of Adler Lacke who is still in his eighties and he's still with his daughters, the head of Adler Lacke. he he He had this sustainable idea like 30 years ago. Yeah.
00:21:52
Speaker
um I think the problem is that we are all, that's human, that people who are judged by profitability always have the problem that they have just a very short term.
00:22:04
Speaker
And for this, the legislation and the regulation is a good thing in Europe. Yeah, I agree. And and i I think it's important to have the CEOs on board with any sustainability strategy. Like I only do, if I do sustainability workshops and strategy works on sustainability, the CEO must be in the room.
00:22:22
Speaker
Otherwise makes no sense. Of course. But also the workforce and the employees have to be there. Yes, exactly. Everybody needs to be on board. Yeah. You asked me about my favorite stories. Is there anything that is still on your mind when you think about this?
00:22:36
Speaker
So I think one of my favorite brands at the moment in sustainability is
Sustainability in Fashion: Creative Communication
00:22:41
Speaker
Reformation. So this is a high fashion brand and they identified that people want clothes that make them feel good.
00:22:50
Speaker
When I started working at Greenpeace and i first tried to shift my wardrobe to sustainable items, whenever I got rid of something, I wanted to buy something more sustainable.
00:23:01
Speaker
I realized that most of the options were not looking really good. I did not feel sexy wearing them. And what Reformation did is, and they only do this for women at the moment, is they provide amazing looking clothes, but they also produce it in a sustainable way.
00:23:19
Speaker
And they don't only do that, but they also make this whole journey and their communication sound sexy. If you go to their website, their claim is being naked is the number one most sustainable option.
00:23:31
Speaker
We are number second. This already plays with the sexiness. And then if you look at their texts, if you look at their Instagram account, it's very much entertaining also. Yes, it has the beautiful dresses there with amazing people wearing them, but it also has memes there.
00:23:48
Speaker
It has fun content and they voluntarily, because they are based in the US, they produce a sustainability report. And then they have this regular guy who stands there shirtless.
00:23:59
Speaker
He presents this report and he talks about it in a fair way. It's the same marketing strategy like Abercrombie & Fitch, but it's ah but it's another better product.
00:24:10
Speaker
Yes, exactly. and And that's what I like about them is that they that they do something good. They talk about it, but they talk about it in a way that people actually listen to it. Yeah, you you want to wear shitty things just to feel sustainable. Exactly. it has to be cool. i mean, even Humana, my daughter is shopping everything secondhand at Humana.
00:24:29
Speaker
When I was like in her age, Humana was like, You know, the homeless people went there to get something to dress and you would never talk about it. Now it's cool. you mean, the shops are cool.
00:24:40
Speaker
The online shop is cool. it's It's a cool brand. You go there and anytime I see her and say, wow, what's that? I got a model. three euros. Yeah. And this change, and this is really good. This is for the young. And this is this is really good.
00:24:54
Speaker
The best thing is if it's sustainable and has a good storytelling and a good marketing. Yes, exactly. And what really fascinates me in my work is working with those companies that do something good that are also not perfect because no company, not even Patagonia is perfect.
00:25:09
Speaker
They started 50 years ago, working with these companies who do something good for the environment and helping them convey it in a way that actually reaches people and that actually excites people.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that's what I love most about my work. I think there are so many more topics that I would like to discuss with you. But in terms of time, i would now switch to the three final questions.
00:25:31
Speaker
Okay. You told me before that you didn't read them. So this is great. We'll get a very spontaneous reaction from you then. So number one is, what is good marketing or good communications to you in three words?
00:25:46
Speaker
A good communication is based on facts. You're creating the right feeling. I love that. Second question. What is the future of communications? The future of communication is very interesting because it's it's not a linear process. Communication is everything.
00:26:01
Speaker
I think communication will be much more creative and much, much more based on experiences and emotions. Everything is communication.
00:26:12
Speaker
Everything. What we wear is communication. The way we look is communication. How we treat other people, what we say is just one part of communication. There is this quote by Watzlawick, you cannot not communicate. Yes, I think this is really more true than ever.
00:26:29
Speaker
Third question. What is a book that you have recently read that you would like to recommend here?
Grazia's Recommendations and Aspirations
00:26:33
Speaker
Okay, this this has nothing to do with sustainability. This is called Das Achte Leben, The Eight Life, I think.
00:26:40
Speaker
It's a family story about the Georgian, Georgian family, starting from the beginning of the First World War till today. It's all about relationships in the family, but this is also a political novel because it tells all the historical dramas.
00:26:58
Speaker
I like that. Thanks for sharing that. One final question I would like to ask you. You have a lot of stories in your magazine. Who would be the interview partner of your dreams? Al Gore.
00:27:09
Speaker
i would like to ask him what motivated him 30 years ago, being the number two of Bill Clinton. And I would like to talk about sustainability with him and his experiences and how he sees the world, if if the world changed and what he thinks about Donald Trump and the American society and economic.
00:27:30
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. What would you and what what is your favorite person you would like to talk to about sustainability? i would It's not a favorite person, but I would like to talk to someone at one of my favorite brands that is not yet very sustainable, which is Lego.
00:27:46
Speaker
because their their main product is made of plastic. So this leaves them in a very uncomfortable spot to be in right now. But they are changing things already. Like the packaging is now, they got rid of all the plastic bags, they shifted to something else.
00:28:00
Speaker
And I think that's a very interesting company in terms of the huge potential that they have if they shift to sustainable. And also they just run amazing campaigns and their marketing is extraordinary. So I would love to talk to one of these guys.
00:28:15
Speaker
Maybe we can get them for our magazine. And then you can do the interview. Yes, I would love to do that. Okay. Grazie, this has been amazing. This has been a lovely,
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:28:25
Speaker
insightful conversation. i very much enjoyed it.
00:28:28
Speaker
Me too. This was my first podcast I ever did. So um thanks a lot. Let's catch up soon again. Thanks again for taking the time. Yes, and um we are very happy to have you in our podcast.
00:28:39
Speaker
Yes, I'm very much looking forward to that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please forward it to a friend or a colleague.
00:28:52
Speaker
This would mean the world to me as I pour my heart and a lot of energy into producing this podcast with all the brilliant minds that share their perspective here. And if you are curious to use the huge potential of sustainability marketing for your own brand and you know the value that a great marketing strategy brings to really connect with your target audience, give me a call or send me a message.
00:29:16
Speaker
I'd love to get to know you and your projects. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok or through my newsletter where I write in-depth thought pieces that help you build a successful and exciting marketing strategy.
00:29:31
Speaker
Again, thank you so much for listening. I really look forward to sharing more with you in the future.