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🏡 Building for Human & Planetary Health - Lenna Lockwood on Biophilic Design, Planetary Health & Storytelling in Real Estate
39 Plays4 days ago
Lenna Lockwood is the founder of Prospera, a real estate consultancy focused on creating places that support human and planetary thriving. With over a decade of experience across the United States and Western Europe, her work bridges design, strategy, and evidence-based innovation in the built environment. Her approach is regenerative, systems-oriented, and grounded in science, drawing on key frameworks such as the Biophilic Design, Circularity and Low-Carbon Design. She advises her clients on how to create places that actively support human thriving and healthspan—physically, mentally, and socially—while meeting the urgent challenges of restoring breached planetary boundaries and building a strong social foundation.
About the FutureStrategies podcast and your host:
I’m Florian Schleicher, a marketing strategist. I help brands gain clarity, spark momentum, and turn strategy into something that actually moves people. In 2022, I started my marketing studio FUTURESTRATEGIES. to do exactly that. I currently work with corporate clients from 11 countries.
If you want more, check out my FutureStrategies newsletter – weekly inspiration on marketing, strategy and sustainability.
And if something’s blocking your brand from doing its best work, let’s talk.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
People are a little bit tired of talking about sustainability and climate change, and there's really a lot of fatigue around that. But people, i don't think, will ever be tired about talking about their own health.
00:00:13
Speaker
their family's health and their community's health and and the thriving of the things that they love. When I talk to people about how buildings impact their health, it gets people energized and they get it. They can relate to it. Welcome to the Future Strategies podcast. My name is Florian Schleicher. I'm a marketing strategist focused on sustainability and I'm your host here. You can listen to my interviews with international experts, And together we will explore where marketing strategies and sustainability intersect. With great examples, insightful stories and a look behind the scenes of some amazing brands.
00:00:50
Speaker
If you're curious how to apply all of that for your own business, I do this for my clients from all around the world. But more on that at the end of this episode. Now let's jump into today's interview.
00:01:02
Speaker
i Today, I'm joined by Lena Lockwood. She's the founder of Prospera, a real estate consultancy focused on creating places that support human and planetary thriving.
00:01:14
Speaker
With over a decade of experience across the United States and Western Europe, her work bridges design, strategy, and evidence-based innovation in a built environment. Her approach is regenerative, systems-oriented,
00:01:27
Speaker
and grounded in science, drawing on key frameworks such as the biophilic design, circularity, and low-carbon design. She advises her clients on how to create places that actively support human thriving and healthspan while meeting the urgent challenges of restoring rich planetary boundaries and building a strong social foundation.
00:01:49
Speaker
I'm super excited to have this conversation with you today, Lena. Likewise, Florian. Thank you for having me. Of course. So when we had our first meeting a couple of days ago, I was truly blown away by all the things that you said and all the connections that you drew.
00:02:03
Speaker
And I felt super inspired afterwards. So I hope we're able to recreate some of that feeling for our listeners here today. Me too. it was It was hard to stop talking. We only had a half an hour. And it's really it's really interesting, the the intersections of something like the built environment and environmental consulting and marketing. And you think, well, you know how are these two related?
00:02:26
Speaker
right And we got into into this talking about storytelling. right It's all about storytelling. Or not all about, but so much of you know creating meaning and creating valuable Real Estate Solutions was about storytelling. So I'm really excited to get into that today. Yeah, me too. So so let's start with the basics.
00:02:44
Speaker
What does sustainability mean in building and why is it so important? Yes. So sustainability is quite simply the ability to sustain in time.
00:02:55
Speaker
right? Sustainability in building requires us to say that how can we build or renovate, renew this you know physical real estate asset in a way that meets the needs of the present without compromising the needs of the future, right?
00:03:13
Speaker
And in this context that we are in today, we have this this idea of the planetary boundaries as well, this framework of of planetary boundaries. And so we can actually look at real estate through the lens of these planetary boundaries. And we've actually breached six out of the nine planetary boundaries. And so sustainable real estate today has to take into account, not just doing less bad, but actually paying off the debt and past real estate to say,
00:03:45
Speaker
okay, so not only do we have to reduce our carbon footprint, but maybe we can do something to actually regenerate and to heal the damage that has been done to the planetary boundaries. So let's maybe paint the the big picture here.
00:04:01
Speaker
One of the things that I still remember from our first conversation was that you said building and sustainability is not the elephant in the room, it is the room. Yes. and And you just sent me also this information that real estate accounts for 39% global carbon emissions and 40% of global and material waste.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah. So that's, you know, that is huge. I think when, when we talk about sustainability and climate change, the focus is very much on, you know, well, you shouldn't take your car and you should recycle and each individual person is responsible and, you know, and, and,
00:04:36
Speaker
ah In the wintertime, you should set your thermostat to 19 degrees Celsius and put on a sweater, right? um But the reality is that all of those things are important, sure.
00:04:47
Speaker
But yeah, buildings are responsible for 39% of global carbon emissions. And those are not individual, you know, human what choices of what degree you're heating at in your home. you know We're talking about large scale industry. We're talking about commercial buildings.
00:05:03
Speaker
And so you know that's the heating and the cooling. But a big part of that is also you know how how we build. And so that 39% is broken down into into two pieces as well, because there's the the embodied carbon, but which is basically what is the carbon emissions of building and renovating a building, right?
00:05:25
Speaker
And then the other piece of that is operational carbon, which is what is the cost of, you know, the carbon cost of heating and cooling and keeping keeping the lights on. And embodied carbon is something that people don't really think enough about.
00:05:39
Speaker
And in some scenarios, it can actually, over a 50-year life cycle, it can actually outweigh operational carbon. And so we really need to be thinking about how we build our buildings, what kinds of materials we use to build them. And then that also ties in with circular economy, right? Because the most sustainable material is one that already exists, one that doesn't have to be transformed.
00:06:02
Speaker
And know I've done some experimental work on this is that if you can find out if you, for example, are renovating a building or building a new building, and you know that there's a building being taken apart two kilometers away,
00:06:13
Speaker
And that, that, that, you know, that work site is going to happen six months from now. And they have, we actually did this. There was this beautiful wood oak, old oak wood floor. And so we knew that that was becoming available in this building that was being taken apart.
00:06:27
Speaker
So we, we captured it, we stored it. And then when we need it, we, we needed it. We brought it in and turned it into beautiful furniture in a new space. And so it was like a really short circuit, minimal transformation,
00:06:40
Speaker
And it's ah you know it's ah its ah it's a wonderful story as well. So again, storytelling. So people come in you know came in and to visit this this office space. And as the as the occupant you know showed people around, they said, and this library, this is actually a wood floor that was in the Grand Palais in Paris.
00:06:59
Speaker
yeah People love that. And and i also think, as you mentioned in the very beginning, I think this is also where our two areas intersect because it's about stories in the end that you can tell afterwards.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah. So I would be curious, how important are those stories? Because your clients are big corporations, big companies. And how do you actually get them to invest in sustainable building? Because it requires, as you mentioned, it requires the knowledge first to understand, okay, what other construction sites are here?
00:07:32
Speaker
Then also the processes need to be different. The materials might be different. So i I suspect it's also a big investment that they have to take. And what other stories or or do you use stories to also convince them to to actually do the sustainable approach?
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah. So there are there are a few pieces here and in that storytelling and the investment. One is simply the financial story. yeah and that it you know And that is a always a reality, especially today.
00:08:02
Speaker
Real estate is a is a little bit tense. especially corporate real estate, interest rates are high. And so the financial case really, really has to make sense.
00:08:13
Speaker
And so for sustainability in Europe, there's legislation that makes this makes it essentially part of risk management to build buildings that are sustainable.
00:08:27
Speaker
So we have something called NFRD, which has, even though The CSRD has been um sort of pulled back a little bit. Yeah. Right. In spite of that, investors are still looking for buildings that are green, deep green. They need those deep green assets. Right. And so that is definitely a motivator.
00:08:49
Speaker
And that's definitely a reason for investing. investors, real estate developers, and ultimately occupants to do green buildings? Because there's that that there's a risk management issue there. And then like the next step is essentially the societal expectations, right? So today, people can go work anywhere, right?
00:09:08
Speaker
And so what differentiates, for example, one workspace from another workspace or one housing development from another housing development? And people want to know, consumers really do want to know that they're making a choice that is healthy for healthy for themselves, but that is also the more virtuous most virtuous choice. they Something that they can feel good about. Oh, I chose this building and look, it has solar panels on it, right? And solar panels, again, that's something where it's arguable depending on how they're oriented, whether they're actually... Solar panels are not necessarily appropriate for every single building project, but they're they tell a story.
00:09:44
Speaker
And so they actually have a lot of storytelling value because people are very proud to work or live in a building that generates its own energy. Even if to some degree it's somewhat anecdotal or doesn't work all year round. It makes it tangible for people to to see, ah, my building is sustainable because it has solar panels.
00:10:04
Speaker
Exactly. Yes, exactly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. and I'll give another example. I have a colleague of mine renovated and an old building and there was ah there was an old watershed, and a river, a stream kind of going through the property.
00:10:18
Speaker
And he wanted to build over it because that's kind of what worked out. But instead of hiding it, he actually, that so the stream runs through the kitchen and it runs underneath. And that piece there is actually, it's the stream is visible. There's a glass floor there.
00:10:34
Speaker
And so there's ah this visual connection to to what is there on the land, right? And so people people love that kind of, like doing good is important, but telling the story of what you did is what also increases willingness to pay.
00:10:52
Speaker
so we're talking about real estate and value, right? And so If you don't tell the story of of what you did, it's really difficult to justify sometimes the added cost of certain things in sustainability. So perhaps I'll use this opportunity to start talking about compliance as well. So because in real estate, there's a lot of, whether that's CSRD or whether that's, you know, there's these voluntary tools like Gresb, for example, which is a sustainable real estate benchmark. And in real estate, so there are a lot of checklists, right?
00:11:22
Speaker
yeah We use checklists. Are you, you know, are you lead? Are you brilliant? Are you well, you know, and, and then you can be, you know, you can be certified in silver and gold and platinum and, and people go, well, it's just checklists. You know, you're doing, you're you're doing this just for the checklist. Right. Or, but it's actually really important because it sets a baseline for performance, which is actually meaningful.
00:11:44
Speaker
And people don't, you know, the public doesn't necessarily realize how, difficult. It can be for a project to meet minimum requirements sometimes and the effort it takes because ah many of these checklists do have this idea of prerequisites.
00:11:59
Speaker
And sometimes a building can be really naturally, let's say, talented, right, in a certain area, then can be very much challenged, for example, on thermal comfort, because it's a It's an existing building with certain conditions and it's very difficult and it takes a lot of investment to to make sure that, you know, you can create an efficient way for everybody to be really comfortable. Also, you know, carbon conscious. And so we should really celebrate compliance, actually, whether it's compliance to like a basic level of certification, whether it's a voluntary, like participating in Grez benchmark and not being a sector leader is also really something great because,
00:12:38
Speaker
It means that the company has actually gone through this voluntary process of looking at all their processes, of looking at their portfolio. And they've said, you know, this is where we're at and this is where our strengths are and this is where our weaknesses are. And and and that process of just having that conversation and then the disclosure is is really, really important.
00:13:00
Speaker
Now that's a baseline and we should definitely celebrate that. and And I have a client, for example, that is really challenged by the fact that, you know, they've done all this voluntary, all this voluntary declarations, but they are reluctant to communicate about it because they feel that if they communicate about it, that they'll be exposing themselves to criticism because they're not perfect.
00:13:25
Speaker
That's, I think, one of the biggest challenges in the whole sustainability movement, that people think they have to be perfect and that there are really people also saying, hey, you have to be perfect. You have to either be super bad or you're perfect.
00:13:39
Speaker
But I think as long as we're talking about black and white, we're not actually making any progress. It will take imperfect steps into the right direction to actually get there.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So like, let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would be curious. you You mentioned some of the projects that you worked for. And I think that makes it very tangible when you explain the example with the river, with with the floor.
00:14:06
Speaker
What are some others of your favorite projects that also tell a nice story that then help your client to communicate it and to increase the value, actually? So one of my favorite projects is ah probably about seven or eight years ago. It was for an asset manager.
00:14:23
Speaker
who had recently acquired the old headquarters of GlaxoSmithKline, just right outside of Paris. It was 40,000 square meters of office space on a campus, beautiful historic area that used to be sort of the the hunting grounds of the French king, yeah right? Near Versailles, just lovely. And so the challenge was, how do you get people to want, how do you get a ah you know very important occupier also to want to rent or buy 40,000 square meters of office space outside of Paris.
00:14:58
Speaker
And so we had to tell a story. And so we came in and we said, okay, well, what are the strengths here? Right? And so we said, well, there's this huge campus. There's all this outdoors. There's wild nature. there's There are views. There's, you know, the the way the building was designed, it was clearly an indoor-outdoor story. And so this was also a time when people were, the the public community, and was starting to become sensitive to the idea of biophilia as well. Right. And so what is, what is biophilia for our listeners? Yeah. Biophilic design is, it's really just about recognizing that humans need nature and that we're wired for it.
00:15:33
Speaker
So basically for 99% of our history, we evolved outdoors in constant interaction with natural elements and not surrounded by concrete walls and artificial. So our bodies and minds are still deeply tuned to things like daylight, fresh air,
00:15:47
Speaker
greenery and natural materials. And these things make us feel good. They make our nervous systems relax. And so today our natural habitats are of course buildings, right? We spend 90% of our lives indoors.
00:15:58
Speaker
And so biophilic design is about bringing those elements of nature back into our everyday spaces, into our homes, into our workplaces and into our schools so that people can feel calmer, healthier, and more energized in their daily lives.
00:16:12
Speaker
Just sort of as an as an interesting extension of that, there's an emerging field also called neuroarchitecture um that builds on these ideas of biophilia showing through neuroscience how design decisions directly affect our brain, our stress response, and our overall well-being.
00:16:26
Speaker
So you could say the way we design buildings actually influences us probably way more than we all realize. Yeah. Because as you said, we spend 90% time indoors and spaces have a an effect on us. Like i I can still remember, this is one of the examples that I still have on the top of my mind is when I was writing my master thesis, that was like 15 years ago, I went to this library, this big library in Vienna, it's national library, so it's very ancient building.
00:16:56
Speaker
And it had those huge ceilings, and was like, seven, eight meters high. And there I was writing my master thesis. And sometimes I was writing also at home, but I preferred actually to write my thesis in this building because I had the feeling that my thoughts have really space and all this space then enabled me to actually think bigger and to have new perspectives.
00:17:24
Speaker
Whereas if I would have been sitting with a low ceiling, probably it wouldn't have had the same effect. Yeah. Yeah. I love that example. So biophilic design has been codified by a number of different people into sort of like, well, what are the what are the ingredients, right?
00:17:42
Speaker
um And so one very famous codification is called the 14 and now 15 patterns of biophilic design from Terrapin Bright Green. And one of them is awe. That's the 15th one that was added recently.
00:17:54
Speaker
So the idea of these large volumes, right, or something like a cathedral or something that is that is that is that is ancient, and it inspires this and inspires awe and that it makes us feel good. It makes us feel calm. And there is something to this idea of like space for the spirit, right? And and then i'm I'm curious also, you know I'm imagining that in this ancient library in Vienna,
00:18:17
Speaker
Perhaps there were windows that were very high up. So perhaps throughout the day, you could also see the light changing. Yeah. And you could see into a park, a couple of trees there.
00:18:29
Speaker
So you always had a connection with, okay, how is the weather outside? Is it snowy? Is it, is the sun out? So yeah, you were very much in tune with the natural rhythm.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So you're sitting there, you're in tune with the natural rhythm of the seasons of the day. There's maybe some diffused light that's changing that you can observe. you know i'm I'm imagining there was there was also perhaps a smell, smelling books, smelling wood, right? Perhaps the floors were wood or stone.
00:18:59
Speaker
And if it was ancient, perhaps you could also experience and be in touch with the passage of time. That's also an element of biophilic design. So that could be That could be a patina, that could be a stone step that's worn out. How did you first come into contact with biophilic design and and what made you choose this as your profession?
00:19:18
Speaker
i was I was in my master's degree at the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York, studying sustainable interior environments. And it was one of the one of the blocks like that we were what that we learned.
00:19:31
Speaker
So we read this book by Stephen Kellert called Birthright, which was essentially the the foundations of biophilia. another And then we read ah Biophilia, which is the original text by E.O. Wilson out of Harvard on the biophilia hypothesis.
00:19:45
Speaker
um And then, of course, there's this big manual biophilic design. And and so it was one of the topics that just really, really spoke to me. Because ultimately, I feel like it makes... it makes the difference between ah space where you're like, this is pretty, but it feels off.
00:20:00
Speaker
And for some reason, I feel really good here. Why is that I always come back to this library or to this cafe to work? Or why do I want to rent this apartment and not that apartment?
00:20:12
Speaker
And biophilia is that it's that invisible something that makes makes the difference there. And so Actually, many of the the health and well-being, for example, frameworks include biophilia and biophilic design in them. So that's like well certification or fit well, the living building challenge. They all include biophilia because it's really recognized as this just essential element for for human thriving.
00:20:38
Speaker
well But so back to this GlaxoSmithStyle fine story. um So essentially, we decided that the value of this piece of real estate was in telling the story of the place. And so we put a wildlife camera.
00:20:49
Speaker
in in in sort of the more wild area of this campus. And we were like, well, what do we observe? We had an ecologist come and say, well, you have this plant and this kind of bird and these kinds of materials and you know and the wildlife camera, it caught foxes playing. And so we built a whole color palette, materials palette. We built actually the space planning of the marketing suite all around telling the story of the place and creating an indoor outdoor dialogue. So even in the space, there were little QR codes that you could scan to listen to the bird song. And then when you go outside for your walk and talk meeting,
00:21:23
Speaker
oh, hey, do you hear that bird? Right? yeah That was just a phenomenal project. And it's not every client that's like, yeah, let's go do that. you know So it was also a really fun fun project. I'm also at the moment thinking about the the new Apple headquarters.
00:21:40
Speaker
where they designed this ring and in the middle of this ring there is kind of a small park area which also feels to me very modern because usually how we design buildings they are rectangular and then yes there is maybe a car park in front of it but with this ring design you actually give people a space to come together to have these walks to walk among trees and hear birds yeah so what are your thoughts on that?
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few pieces here. So one, I happen to know that Steve Jobs was very big on walking and talking. And and there's there's something there, actually. So when, maybe I'll talk talk about this from the point of view of nervous system regulation. So when your nervous system is stimulated and on alert, so you have like low heart rate variability, you can't be creative,
00:22:25
Speaker
You can't be problem solving because your your your nervous system is like all of your energy is going towards survival. And so walking actually calms the nervous system and walking side by side with someone as well.
00:22:37
Speaker
It gets you into your body. It gets you out of fight or flight and it gets you into that creative space. And since you're not looking at somebody in the eyes as well, especially like imagine if you're walking with your manager and you have something kind of touchy to talk about.
00:22:51
Speaker
The fact of being side by side already puts you in a more collaborative, like walking toward the future kind of posture. When you can create these sort of places that are also in nature, where people can walk and talk, it collaborates. calms their nervous system.
00:23:08
Speaker
It puts them in a collaborative posture and it's it's really beneficial. So for example, there are studies that show that 20 minutes of walking outdoors, especially in a forest, it lowers your blood pressure.
00:23:19
Speaker
So there's this ah study maybe like 15 years ago where they would show people images and measure their physiological responses and And so even just just one minute of looking at a picture of a park, you know even better if it's outdoors.
00:23:34
Speaker
But if it's literally even just on your screen or on your wall, you know that can actually lower your lower your blood pressure. And there's another piece of biophilic. design actually that's called attention restoration theory, which means that, you know, sometimes our brains, they kind of, they kind of get a little overloaded or we kind of get a little like overwhelmed, overwhelmed right? And so just taking a look outside for 30 seconds or, you know, Oh, I see a bird that landed on the, you know, on the,
00:24:02
Speaker
on the fence right there, or, oh, look, it just started to rain. Just looking away for, you know, 30 seconds and coming back to your computer, like restores, it's like sort of like rebooting your phone.
00:24:14
Speaker
You know, it restores its capacity to to to process information. So in an attempt to somewhat come back to what we talked at the beginning, we now talked a lot about human thriving that comes through how our buildings are designed.
00:24:30
Speaker
What does it have to do with planetary health? You mentioned the effects and the carbon emissions that it has, but is there something else that is important here and why these are so interconnected?
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah. So a framework that I really like to reference is the planetary health framework. which basically says that human, planetary, and biodiversity health are all intertwined.
00:24:55
Speaker
it It's holistic, right? it's It's a system, and humans need a thriving planet in order to thrive. So we can talk about simple things like you know ecosystem services, right? There have been studies that have said, what would be the cost of replacing...
00:25:13
Speaker
pollination, for example. That is something that nature does for us for free. But if there's no more bees, what is the cost of hand pollinating? And there are places where hand pollinating is happening.
00:25:24
Speaker
you um What is the cost of replacing nature's natural ability to create clean air? right, to create fresh water. And so, you know, those are things that we all need to thrive.
00:25:36
Speaker
Another piece of that that we could talk about is, for example, diseases and disease transfer, something that we saw with COVID, right, that biodiversity health, so healthy ecosystems help biodiversity thrive and be healthy. And we want diversity in order also to make sure that certain diseases and stay in the animal kingdom.
00:25:59
Speaker
And so all of these things are are interconnected. And the reason I also like this framework of planetary health or also one health, they're both holistic systems thinking frameworks.
00:26:10
Speaker
And The reason I also like them is because I find that people are a little bit tired of talking about sustainability and climate change. And there's really a lot of fatigue around that.
00:26:23
Speaker
People know all the numbers, they they get it, and they're tired. yeah But people I don't think will ever be tired about talking about their own health.
00:26:33
Speaker
their family's health and, you know, and their community's health and and the thriving of the things that they love. Right. And so for me, i ended up studying sustainable interior environments. I could have gone into, you know,
00:26:47
Speaker
circular economy and you know low carbon, zero carbon energy. you know I could have gone in that direction. But instead, i went more into the human health and well-being. Also, because I find that when I talk to people about how buildings impact their health, it gets people energized.
00:27:05
Speaker
And they get it. They can relate to it. you know If you say to them, we need to take cars off the road because we need to have cleaner air because we're polluting the planet, people are like, okay. But if I say that 24% of global deaths are linked to the environment and indoor and outdoor air quality are the number one environmental factor in that.
00:27:26
Speaker
And so if we can pollute less, like reduce, you know, for example, particulate matter in the atmosphere, that will give you more healthy years in your life. People go, oh, tell me more about that, right?
00:27:39
Speaker
And so even though the numbers can be a little bit numbing, it's worth looking at what is the actual impact of the built environment on human health. So non-communicable diseases like heart disease, cancer, and diabetes, they account for about 74% of all deaths globally, but most of them are preventable. Hmm.
00:27:58
Speaker
And not only are they preventable, but when you look at that 74%, next to the fact that 80% of all health outcomes are modifiable and related to our behaviors, but also the environment, that's actually really surprising. Because most people think, well, you know, my father had diabetes, so I'm going to have diabetes.
00:28:21
Speaker
Or, you know, well, I have access to medical care or I don't have access to medical care, right? Access to medical care and genetics is about 20% of health and outcomes, right? And the other 80% is where do you live? Where do you work?
00:28:35
Speaker
And what are the choices that you make? And so as people who work in the built environment, we could say, okay, well, we're going to build the healthiest buildings possible. We're going to use healthy materials. We're going to make sure that we filter, you know,
00:28:47
Speaker
outdoor air coming in because we're, you know, we're in a major city where the outdoor air quality isn't great, but at least the time where people are indoors, we can have really healthy environments for them. We could provide filtered water. We can provide circadian lighting, you know, to help them, to help them have energy and then be able to fall asleep. And there's all these wonderful things that we can do, but,
00:29:08
Speaker
what's also And this ties back into marketing. You can say, and then the rest of it is personal choices, right? But actually not, because whether or not someone, for example, participates in physical activity, whether or not they smoke, whether they you know are able to have meaningful social connections and interactions,
00:29:25
Speaker
or even access to healthy food options or understand what healthy food is. Those are also things that we can work on through how we design buildings and communities, right? So for example, an environment that supports thriving makes healthy choices easy, right? We talk about sustainability, make the sustainable choice easy.
00:29:43
Speaker
And the same goes for for healthy you know healthy choices. So ideally the healthy choice is free or it uses, for example, nudge, right? From nudge marketing uses nudges to encourage healthy behavior. So that could be like, for example, providing gardening spaces, tools, and workshops.
00:29:58
Speaker
um That could be like providing a workspace rooftop, Garden, right? But it's not enough just to say, okay, well, we put her we put a garden on the roof. Okay, but are you providing tools?
00:30:10
Speaker
Do you have someone come in once a week to show people how to, you know, this week we're working on this and this week we're planting this and then the harvesting. And, you know, when you harvest the things that are being grown on the rooftop.
00:30:22
Speaker
Do you bring them down to the ground floor and distribute them to people? Maybe you have a little little recipe that you hand out that you know that encourages people to yeah use whatever fruits or vegetables have been grown, right?
00:30:34
Speaker
um Another example of that is also like physical activity, right? it's great to It's great to say, oh, well, you know people are responsible for working out. Okay, that yes. Okay, but do you, have you created a space for them to do that? Maybe it's a park that has, we've all seen that outdoor equipment, right? In the park.
00:30:52
Speaker
People actually use that, right? And then what's even better is, okay, so you have a you have a gym in your office. Great. Is it a nice place to be? Is it biophilic? Do people feel good when they go there or is it cold and smelly, right?
00:31:05
Speaker
Do you have a coach, even a virtual coach, right? Does HR and does your manager encourage you to actually go there? Are there some nudges where you are actually rewarded for participating in those things. And then also can be something simple as like gamification of stair use, right? I mean, we've all seen that, right? Like each stair has, you know, you climb one flight of stairs and you've burned three calories, right?
00:31:28
Speaker
And having that next to next to the elevator, it's quite, you know, its very simple things or um in something we call active design. For example, if you have an elevator bank and you have a staircase and you put the staircase on the exterior side of the building,
00:31:42
Speaker
And so that means that as you climb, let's say four flights of stairs, you can actually get to look outside and you have the daylight and it's a beautiful monumental staircase. People are love taking those stairs. And then it has the added benefit of actually the social interaction, the social connection, because you're climbing up and you happen to run into Lisa from HR and you chat and blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, if you create a nice wide staircase that's in a beautiful place, can also create ah a space for for interaction. That's a lot less awkward than cramming into an elevator. I love all the all of these examples. And honestly, again, so many of my questions, some of which I didn't even realize that I had were answered.
00:32:25
Speaker
I would be curious, do you have any questions for me? I do. Actually, um one of the things that I have always sort of found challenging is the aspect of willingness to pay. Right. I'm wondering, you know, in marketing and sustainability, right, like products that are more sustainable or healthy or organic tend to be more expensive, right? And the same the same goes for healthy and sustainable real estate, right? An investor or occupant, you know, it just costs a little bit more to do a little bit better, right? And so that there's a certain cost. So how do you, you know, how have you in in your role addressed these issues of willingness to pay? That's one of the big topics in sustainability, how to actually get people to pay for the added value of it being sustainable. I think there are a couple of things here that that work.
00:33:14
Speaker
Number one is, I think it all comes down to the problem that things are actually solving for me. I always like to bring up this example of shoes. Nobody wants sustainable shoes.
00:33:27
Speaker
We want shoes that are comfortable, that we enjoy wearing and that look good. And then on top, if these shoes are also sustainable, great. But I think one important thing is whenever we talk about sustainability, we have to realize that 99% of people are not interested in a sustainable solution.
00:33:47
Speaker
So we have to give them something else. So that's number one. Always think about what people really need and then cater to that. Second thing, there there has been an interesting study being made on portable coffee cups.
00:34:01
Speaker
We have all these takeaway cups. It's so trendy to walk around with your Cappuccino with oat milk down the streets of Paris, Vienna, wherever you are. People are lazy and they don't bring their own coffee cups because you have to plan ahead. This is not convenient.
00:34:18
Speaker
One experiment that has been done is there is a difference in how people perceive price when it comes to coffee cups. So let's say the normal thing to do is here, you go to a coffee store and they say, if you bring your own cup, you pay a euro less.
00:34:35
Speaker
How does it work? Not at all. But if you change the perspective and you say, so the coffee costs three euros, but if you don't bring your own cup, it costs four euros.
00:34:46
Speaker
And suddenly you're like, I don't want to pay more. So there are certain psychological nudges, as you also said, they don't want to spend more. They don't care that much about spending less.
00:34:58
Speaker
So you have to consider that. And that always comes down to the choice that you're actually doing because with coffee, it's different than if you buy a car or an apartment. But there are those things that that you can use as as triggers, as nudges.
00:35:12
Speaker
But in the end, it always comes down to the personal benefit that we attribute to things. Yes, there are, of course, people in our society who can't afford to buy the organic vegetables.
00:35:24
Speaker
But if you make it a choice of health, for example, I think it's way more useful than if it's about just sustainable because health is something individual. And there are a lot of people in our society who can afford to go with the more expensive solution.
00:35:41
Speaker
And we see that like people buy super expensive smartphones every couple of years, they don't need them. And there are way cheaper options, but we want them. So I think, and that's also what I learned in in the the private sector where I worked is figure out what people really want and why they buy expensive stuff.
00:36:01
Speaker
And then apply this to sustainability. So I think we need to shift the frame a little bit. That's really insightful. Thank you for sharing that that those insights. And it makes me think of also the reason why perhaps I have chosen the health and well-being approach, even though you know human sustainability is about planetary sustainability and human health and well-being.
00:36:26
Speaker
Ultimately, I find that the door opens much more easily when you talk to people about how it impacts them directly. Exactly. And as an example that you mentioned about this building outside the city center of Paris, what you did there is it was about how can we get employees or people who want to rent an apartment here to actually do that?
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah. And that's how you convince them, the client, to actually invest into something sustainable because it's an added value and then they can sell it and they can make money with it. So I think in the end, it always comes down to psychology. And that's what I find so fascinating about marketing.
00:37:03
Speaker
You have to be really good at understanding what people actually want. And most of the time, it's not the obvious thing that they want. Yeah, that's that's really interesting. Thank you.
00:37:14
Speaker
Lena, this has been lovely. I want to go before we close this up to the three final questions. So question number one is, what is good communication or good marketing for you in three words?
00:37:26
Speaker
This is related to, I'm going to relate it to real estate storytelling. Sure. but For me, it's emotional, it's relatable, and it's transparent. I like that. What is the future of communication, storytelling, marketing?
00:37:40
Speaker
So especially in in in real estate, there's a lot of B2B marketing actually as well, because there's a lot of, there's a long value chain there, but also in terms of communicating to consumers also about the value about an asset, whether it's, you know, a new apartments for sale or a new hospital that's being built or the future office that we're building for you that you're going to move into. I would say that there are maybe three main topics and that are going to be essential for the future of of communications. And one is co-creation.
00:38:11
Speaker
So the sort of participative approach where affected stakeholders have a say and get to communicate and express themselves about this future project where it helps them own it. It helps them be feel like they're part of it.
00:38:26
Speaker
And ultimately, it I think it leads to better outcomes because it means that instead of imposing a solution on a specific area, you actually end up creating something that's highly relevant and therefore more valuable and Ideally, even highly anticipated by the community.
00:38:43
Speaker
And then related to that, the second one is social value. So how does this real estate, how does this solution, how does this place, how does it improve my life, my family's life and the life of my community?
00:38:54
Speaker
And then related to that is the idea of accountability, because there's a lot of greenwash. There's a lot of you know also social value washing, right? We've created X number of jobs and, you know, we've taken X number of cars off the road, ah you know, but audiences are are really skeptical. And so in in real estate, being able to say that our claims are verified by a third party, and that could also mean having a certification, i think that will continue to be really valuable.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. And last question, what is a book that you would like to recommend here? It was very difficult for me to choose one book. I'm actually, I always have like stacks of books where I'm like,
00:39:35
Speaker
partway through so many books at the same time. i would say the one that I'm reading right now, which is very exciting to me, is called Designing Neuro-Inclusive Workspaces. It's by Chris Sargent, and it essentially connects design with neuroscience and shows how to create environments where everyone can thrive. I think we're sort of as a society, we're starting to embrace the idea that there's no such thing as really neurotypical, neuronormal. There's no like...
00:39:59
Speaker
It's actually, we're all somewhere on a spectrum and different things work for different people. And so I love how we're starting to design workplaces that are not just inclusive or even homes or communities that are just not just inclusive of physical abilities or in you know disabilities, but but also looking at that from ah from a neurological, neurotypical, neuroatypical. So that's really fascinating to me right now.
00:40:22
Speaker
But there's also another book that I just absolutely love. I have read it so many times and I always have my students read it. It's like this baseline for for me, for systems thinking about sustainability, and it's called The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawkins. It's an oldie, but it's such a goodie. It's such a great read.
00:40:42
Speaker
It's easy. And it basically just covers the baseline for understanding sustainability from a systems perspective. I love that. Those two go straight to my reading list and I already look forward to reading them.
00:40:55
Speaker
Thank you so much. Great. It's been such a pleasure talking with you again. Thank you for taking the time and sharing all your knowledge and insights. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been really fun.
00:41:08
Speaker
And really, really love seeing how our how our fields, you know, how much they have to to nourish each other. Yeah. And let's definitely catch up over a cup of coffee. That would be lovely. I've always wanted to come to Vienna.
00:41:20
Speaker
It's a very biophilic city. Now you have another reason and I will show you the public library that I talked about. Lovely. we could do We could do a biophilic design assessment there. Yes, let's do that.
00:41:30
Speaker
Lovely. Thank you, Florian. Have a lovely day. You too. Talk to you soon. Take care. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please forward it to a friend or colleague.
00:41:43
Speaker
This would mean the world to me as I pour my heart and a lot of energy into producing this podcast with all the brilliant minds that share their perspective here. And if you know the value that a great marketing strategy brings to really connect with your target audience, give me a call or send me a message.
00:42:02
Speaker
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00:42:16
Speaker
Again, thank you so much for listening. I really look forward to sharing more with you in the future.