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♻️ Transforming a Company - Stefan Grafenhorst from Greiner
92 Plays7 months ago
Stefan Grafenhorst is Vice President Sustainability & Corporate Communications at Greiner. Greiner is a manufacturer of plastic packaging, medical devices and foam products such as mattresses.
Stefan manages sustainability at Greiner and ensures that the company becomes more sustainable overall. The main focus of this role is to reduce the negative impact and transform the business areas that are not sustainable from today's perspective.
But Stefan was not always in sustainability. His professional career began in consulting before he became a development worker in Africa for several years. After working in the political arena in Berlin, he moved to Greiner in Austria in 2017.
About the FutureStrategies podcast and your host:
I’m Florian Schleicher, a marketing strategist. I help brands gain clarity, spark momentum, and turn strategy into something that actually moves people. In 2022, I started my marketing studio FUTURESTRATEGIES. to do exactly that. I currently work with corporate clients from 11 countries.
If you want more, check out my FutureStrategies newsletter – weekly inspiration on marketing, strategy and sustainability.
And if something’s blocking your brand from doing its best work, let’s talk.
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Transcript
Introduction: The Plastic Economy's Dilemma
00:00:00
Speaker
The plastics economy that we see today is wrong, but we still need plastics. There's also agreement around that. So let's change it. So if you really want to change something, you just need to find the right organization that is serious about the change that is required. For us at Griner was how can plastics be sustainable?
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to the Future Strategies podcast. My name is Florian Schleicher. I'm a marketing strategist focused on sustainability, and I'm your host here. Every two weeks, you can listen to my interviews with international experts, and together we will explore where marketing strategies and sustainability intersect with great examples, insightful stories, and a look behind the scenes of some amazing brands.
00:00:45
Speaker
If you are curious how to apply all of that for your own business, I do this for my clients from all around the world through inspiring workshops, guiding mentoring and an exciting online academy. But more on that at the end of this episode. Now let's jump into today's interview.
Meet Stefan Grafenhast: Greiner's Sustainability Advocate
00:01:02
Speaker
My guest today is Stefan Grafenhast. Stefan manages sustainability at Greiner and ensures that the company becomes more sustainable overall. Greiner is a manufacturer of plastic packaging, medical devices and foam products such as mattresses.
00:01:19
Speaker
The main focus of his role is to reduce the negative impact and transform the business areas that are not sustainable from today's perspective. But Stefan was not always in sustainability. His professional career began in consulting before he became a development worker in Africa for several years. After working in the political arena in Berlin, he moved to Greiner in Austria in 2017.
00:01:45
Speaker
What else do you need to know about him? His girlfriend is an artist, so art plays a big role in his life. Another current passion of his, petal tennis, a mixture of tennis and squash. Stefan, it's a real pleasure to have you on the show today. Hi, Florian. Thanks for the invitation.
00:02:03
Speaker
So of course, I want to know more about pedal tennis, but before that, let's address the elephant in the room.
Can Plastics Be Made Sustainable?
00:02:10
Speaker
chinaina is working in the plastics industry how sustainable can plastic even be That's the question that that we have to answer as a company.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's the crucial questions. um Can plastics ever be sustainable? What we see right now, I mean, the answer is obvious. it's It's a clear no, because plastics is made from fossil fuel materials, and most of the plastic that we use is landfilled or incinerated. So we burn the products, the cup or most of our bottles that we use. there's There's little recycling or not enough I would say. yeah But we also need to realize that without plastics
00:02:53
Speaker
and We're not going to make it. now There's just too many applications where we need plastics, so we need to develop a different economy, a different system for plastics. And if you ask me what I do, that's exactly my job, helping the company to transform, to find solutions that are more sustainable.
00:03:12
Speaker
and I really appreciate the honesty there because that was one of the questions that I also had in my mind first thinking about Greiner. And how do you make sure in your role then that you don't just talk about sustainability, yeah but that you actually achieve progress?
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, let's be honest here again. I mean, it all starts with talking yeah in the end, because as ah as an organization or even as an an individual, you need to realize that you have a problem, and that requires talking. So we we still talk a lot. I talk a lot to colleagues, making sure that everyone understands that there is a problem, yeah that yeah the stuff that we have done, the business that we are doing for decades, yeah and we are doing that quite successfully.
00:03:59
Speaker
yeah Don't forget that. We were making good money with a business that is not necessarily sustainable. yeah So there's good reasons for people to say, why do we need to change? yeah Because we were so successful. We were growing, we were making profits. Everyone knows we were making profits with while we were damaging nature, while we have like huge emissions. But yeah again, coming back to your questions,
00:04:26
Speaker
We need to talk about why we need to change. Why stuff that we have done in the past and which was but which was successful needs to be changed. And that is yeah worth talking about. You must be a person who likes a good challenge.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, no one said it's going to be easy. yeah And I think that that's the fun part. I think if the job was easy, if we were like, I don't know, producing renewable energy and electricity ah from yeah from from green sources, then I think you made it already. Yeah. I think it's such an important role that your industry also plays because like you, I also had a past in a not so sustainable industry. I worked for McDonald's.
00:05:11
Speaker
I sold burgers, um I was a marketeer there, also not the most sustainable business. But what I see is that most people who work in the sustainability field, they had some kind of...
00:05:23
Speaker
point Let's call it breaking point in their lives when they decided, ah I want to do something good now and I want to change and use the things that I've learned and my knowledge for driving positive change. Do you have such a moment in your life? To be very honest, not really. I think that that the Griner was actually an accident. I liked and my boss yeah when I had the interview.
00:05:48
Speaker
I really like the person and i thought you know he is he's an authentic person he was super kind when we first met and i felt that there is a passion and that he meant it real yeah that he really saw the problem.
00:06:04
Speaker
and that he was very convincing and explaining that yeah that things need to be different in the future. yeah He would agree that there's a long way to go and there would be a lot of problems ah along the way, but I felt he was real. So it was actually a person convincing me um to be part of that journey here.
00:06:25
Speaker
The other story is that I was looking for a place where you can create impact. yeah I remember that I was in in Africa for a while as a development worker, you mentioned that earlier, and I felt you know that's a perfect place ah to do something meaningful.
00:06:43
Speaker
But in the end, it turned out that I i felt quite lost in Africa, yeah because you would be an advisor, you would talk a lot, but not take action. You would be a guest in the end. yeah It was a government institution, which was also difficult.
00:07:01
Speaker
And in the corporate world, really lies the problem that we have with sustainability. yeah There's no doubt about it. i mean It's manufacturing companies yeah who have that that huge chunk of emissions that that that we have in the world. So if you really want to change something, yeah the corporate world is just perfect. You just need to find the right organization that is serious about the change that is required.
Greiner's Initiatives for a Greener Supply Chain
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, so so now I would be super curious, what are some of the projects that you are working on at Graina driving this positive change and and trying to transform the company to a more sustainable way?
00:07:39
Speaker
When I have to describe my job, there's basically two buckets. yeah One is the the evil necessary, I would say. you know That is the reporting part. yeah I mean, everyone knows there's a lot of reporting requirements in the EU, especially CSRD, taxonomy, CS triple D to name a few.
00:08:00
Speaker
yeah And that clearly is part of my job. um you know And that takes quite a bit of time to make sure that we understand our footprint, you know do the reporting right, collect data, analyze data, set targets, all that part.
00:08:16
Speaker
and And that is something that is obviously heavily criticized right now because a lot of business leaders say it's too much. That bureaucracy, that regulation piece is hindering companies from actually doing business and doing projects to become more sustainable.
00:08:37
Speaker
The other bucket is really making sure that you know we don't just talk, but we take action. And that is a million different things. That is making sure that we understand our suppliers' um sustainability performance. That is you know talking about our emissions, making sure that we purchase green energy around the world.
00:09:00
Speaker
That is you know making sure that we use different materials in the future, moving away from virgin materials to more ah secondary raw materials. That is working in the afternoon around diversity, equity, inclusion. yeah It's along these three pillars, yeah ESG, and the fun part is jumping from from one to the other within a few hours.
00:09:26
Speaker
And I also like what you said about the reporting part because I think in the EU, we have a tendency to bureaucratize things a lot. Like it was the same with GDPR, great starting point to say, hey, we want to give users more privacy in the internet, but then hinders in a way also a nice user flow. So I think with the sustainability reporting, I think it is important.
00:09:53
Speaker
But I also hear from many sustainability managers and many companies who don't have sustainability managers, even how much effort it is to fill that out. And you need basically a full-time person for part of the year just to do the reporting. So I think that that's a lot of things that need to be done. On the other side, yes, it's important that we track these things because if we don't track it, then we don't know whether we are on a good track. So it's never easy, but I totally get that point.
00:10:21
Speaker
yeah I think the that the challenge is that that we do but most companies these days do it for the first time and doing things for the first time is never easy. yeah you know No one talks about the financial reporting because we're doing that for decades. yeah yeah We are used to it. we We know the frameworks, we know how it works, processes are established.
00:10:43
Speaker
yeah there's you know teams understanding what is required and that we don't have for the non-financial part. yeah But if we forward, if we think like it was the year 2030, it will be very different, I assume, because then everyone got his his experience around non-financial reporting. We know what to do, we are familiar with the frameworks,
00:11:09
Speaker
you know We do understand um what it takes ah to do ESG reporting and and how it to be regulatory compliant. It just takes time. yeah What do you think is the role that companies play in achieving a sustainable future? Because from policymakers, we now know okay their role is to provide this framework of how to report stuff. What can companies do?
The Role of Business in Driving Sustainability
00:11:35
Speaker
I think that they play a major role. yeah I mean, they can't do it on their own. yeah There's still um changes in in in policies and regulatory frameworks necessary. yeah Just to give an example, I see a lot of business ideas, more sustainable ideas that that are feasible technically, yeah but they are not profitable today for for certain reasons. And a lot of them a lot of those reasons are because there's there's policies in place that you know that that support a linear economy, for instance. yeah So it needs it needs both. yeah It needs changes in policies, but also then the companies and taking actions um and build and develop those new business models. yeah Do you think there is enough regulation at the moment or do we need more?
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, most of the people would say there's already like too much regulation. I would say it doesn't eat more in the end. Just think about plastics. I think it does need more regulation around plastics yeah and the good thing.
00:12:42
Speaker
is that that most of the governments also see that because UN n member states currently negotiate a global plastics treaty and there's a vast majority even among the um corporate world who say, yes, we do need a global framework. yeah We need something like the Paris Agreement that we have for the climate. We also need that for plastics. Why?
00:13:08
Speaker
because you know it just needs more than just companies turning things around. yeah You need government investment like public money into waste management. You need national action plans. yeah Of course, you also need action from companies. yeah But if you just think about standards or regulation around the recyclability of products, that's something that you cannot do as an single corporate organization, yeah but it does need like even like European or international um definitions of those frameworks. yeah
00:13:45
Speaker
yeah Interesting. let's Let's see what happens there with the regulations. I think we probably will need something a little bit more binding than the Paris Agreement because we're pretty far off if we look at the numbers of CO2 that we still put out. um But let's see. Another big topic that I want to talk with you about is what people really want.
00:14:08
Speaker
So I give a lot of workshops and talks and something that I point out every time is this value action gap. So whenever I come into a company, I work with a couple of corporates and also startups. I have never once even found a person who says, I don't care about sustainability.
00:14:27
Speaker
Everybody, like top manager down to everybody, they say, yes, sustainability is a topic very dear to me. I want to do something good here. But then when we see it coming to action, there is not enough going on, which is also the reason why we're not achieving Paris agreements so far.
00:14:45
Speaker
How much do your customers really care about sustainability? Is it something that you have to convince them that it's important or are they already on track that they say, yes, this is something we we really want to do something. And if it costs a little more, we're also going to take that.
00:15:02
Speaker
I think 99% of our customers, and we work with a lot of big global corporates, have clear strategies around sustainability. Most of them have quantitative targets on what they want to achieve.
00:15:18
Speaker
Now the story is that when something becomes more expensive, they usually push back. It's like you and me. We obviously care about sustainability, but how willing are we to pay more? And that we have as an individual, and companies have that as well. yeah Most of them are listed. Most of them are you know pushed by shareholders to perform financially.
00:15:49
Speaker
yeah And I think that's you know where where things become difficult. And that's also something that we see within the company. yeah Of course, for most of our colleagues, it's very important to be more sustainable and to do something. But then you know the structural problem is that we judge most of their performance by financial indicators. yeah And then of course, I mean, if a CEO is purely judged by financial performance,
00:16:19
Speaker
then is he really gonna get you know sustainability integrated in the organization? Is he really stopping a project? that is less sustainable but profitable? I guess the answer is no. yeah So we need to see like how can we incentivize people within the companies to yeah take action that is long-term sustainable. Have you found any any ways how that could work or have you implemented something like that at Cryona?
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's very easy. I mean i will remember like when I started, our our bonus policies was purely about financials. There was a lot of ah revenues. If there was higher EBITs, if there was more cash flow, you know people were ah given a bonus. Today, a certain part of that bonus depends on our non-financial performance. So that's good. So there's a clear incentive.
00:17:18
Speaker
yeah for your for your salary, for your bonus, when Griner becomes more sustainable. To be honest here, there is still a disconnect because more than 50% still depends on on on on the financial performance of Griner, but we are getting
How Does Greiner Incentivize Sustainability?
00:17:37
Speaker
there. yeah We have a certain percentage where we see, okay, what is the non-financial performance of Griner? Is it becoming better? Is our footprint reduced? And if so, yeah, then your bonus payment will be will be better. Yeah. You're actually a second person telling me this. I had a chat also on this podcast with the CEO of Frosh, Frosh Cleaning Products, and he said that they have the same thing in their company.
00:18:04
Speaker
Every employee from the secretary to the CEO has sustainability goals and only if they reach them, then they get the bonus. I think like what the next step would be like is you have to achieve your sustainability targets in order to even be able to achieve the profit-based targets then to get the bonus so that you have have linked them in a way. But I think it's so important, the thing that you also mentioned, on having a means to measure your impact, your sustainable impact. And I think what we're really missing at the moment overall as a society is a KPI on sustainability. Because but nowadays what we have is annually we get a report from the climate scientists who say, still not good enough. We haven't achieved enough progress. And then everybody gets frustrated again, because it's so hard to measure on a monthly basis. For example, we can measure the financial results.
00:19:03
Speaker
It's very easy. We have the means to do that. Everybody knows, okay, are we on track with climate and CO2? It's harder to measure and we don't have the means right now to really know, okay, this quarter, did we do good as a company or did we not? Well, you can. I mean, you can look at your data and see like, you know, how many accidents do you have? You know, is is waste going up and down? Is your water consumption going up and down? ah You can. Yeah. But it takes time to integrate that.
00:19:32
Speaker
within companies. I mean, we've started years ago and I would actually argue our database is quite okay. yeah yeah That's the tricky part now. There is no excuses where we can't argue, oh, we don't know. Yes, we do know. And with that knowledge now comes obviously a bit of responsibility to put it nicely.
00:19:53
Speaker
This actually brings me to another point, which is in ah an interview that you gave, you mentioned that sustainability managers need resilience, persistency and naivety. Yeah, because we need to be like kids once in a while, because they ask like, stupid questions, yeah because they don't understand the past. Yeah, they don't have that history of why we do things ah for decades.
00:20:18
Speaker
And um I remember when I started seven years ago, I went to our R&D people within Grindr packaging, our packaging division. And I was like, there's so much waste. Why don't we just recycle our yellow bags?
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah. And they were going crazy. I was saying like, but Stefan, the quality of the material is so bad. Yeah. And the quality of our products is going to suffer. So they had good reasons within their world. But I think that was a naive question. Yeah. I even asked like, why don't we take all the waste? Why don't we invest and take all the waste?
00:20:56
Speaker
that are in the oceans right now, recycle them and use them again. and Again, the same argument came. They were worried about quality, um they didn't know about like you know where the material would come from, and it makes perfect sense, but I think it needs both. Naive questions that kind of break with with the tradition that we have in our behavior.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so important and and and I think the longer you are in a position, the harder it gets to ask those stupid questions because you think... You know why things are done that way. So I think in your role, I think it's super important to be brave enough to ask the stupid questions and to be perceived as, yeah, I don't know how this works. Please tell it to me. Like yesterday, very simple example, I was at my hairdresser and hairdressers always start on the sides and never on top. And so I asked my hairdresser.
00:21:54
Speaker
I don't get it like i have now 30 years of hairdressing experience. Why is it always done that way? And she also said, honestly, I don't know. This is how I learned it. And I think there are so many things. There's probably a very good reason behind this. Again, in and if in any company, there are things that are just nobody questions why they work this way. And then if you come in with a childlike perspective, as you said, then maybe you can drive some change actually. Yeah. On point, I would say.
00:22:21
Speaker
and I would even say that at some point we should also change roles. I shouldn't be the sustainability manager forever here. yeah yeah I'm here now for almost eight years and I think at one point I should be in a different role, just to make sure that someone else comes in with a different thinking. yeah Of course, we make sure that there is a diverse team, yeah so that we have that also that diverse thinking, but sooner or later, we should see that you know I step into a different room and not be in the same ah room forever. yeah The same with policymakers. I think it helps if if if even know if you have a bit of a change, a fluctuation,
00:23:07
Speaker
yeah When you approach other departments in your role, as you as you mentioned in the beginning, and you tell you ask them those stupid questions, How do you make sure to open doors and how do you approach people who might have different objectives that might maybe even compete with sustainability? What do you think is important to bridge this gap and and create an atmosphere of open dialogue? That's quite easy. I think you don't blame anyone. yeah If there's a problem, yeah I usually say we're all here
00:23:45
Speaker
to find a solution to that problem. ah You know, if you step into the room and say like, there's a problem here, who's to judge? Yeah, who's responsible for that? Then, you know, culture suffers, and then people would probably step back and also push back and say like, all right, no, no, um I don't want to do this discussion.
00:24:05
Speaker
yeah So no judgment, no blaming, a lot of questions, trying to understand why people, you know, in that case that we had earlier, why don't we take the yellow back? My colleagues have good reasons. There is a quality issue. yeah They're not stupid, but we need both. And we need that open culture of of reflecting on how we do things.
00:24:33
Speaker
There might still be some people that say, I don't want this. OK, fine. But the majority of people will say, OK, great. You're here. Let's find a solution. you but You're probably right. And then that's also important. But what we also make sure is that people understand the why. Why do we need to change here? Why do we have that question? Why do we need to collect data? Why do I need to be painful at times? so And the why might be sometimes because there's a quite customer request.
00:25:07
Speaker
because our shareholder wants something, or the bank wants something, yes or the financial institution putting pressure on us, or there is ah there's a regulation that we need to fulfill. And if people understand why we do that, if we pass that point,
00:25:25
Speaker
Then we have quite a lot of colleagues who are willing to say, okay, if I understand why, then yeah, let's do it. Yeah. I think that greatly summarizes it up is don't play the blame game and always explain why you want to know something, why you want to change something.
Communicating Sustainability: Internal and External Strategies
00:25:42
Speaker
The last point that that I want to touch upon with you is communications. How is sustainability integrated in your communication strategy?
00:25:54
Speaker
When I started in 2017, I started as the sustainability manager. And then two, three years later, we combined both departments and made it one department. yeah So there is today one team that works around corporate communications, you know, working on um creating content and and working around our corporate communication channels. yeah But there's also the sustainability team that does all of that the reporting and you know developing projects. A lot of questions for us at Griner, because we are doing plastics, was how can plastics be sustainable? So most of the journalists that would approach us, or most other stakeholders, they would have a sustainability-related question.
00:26:42
Speaker
So I was the one answering most of the questions. And then at one point we decided that that I would head to both departments. And as I said earlier, sustainability is a lot about communication, especially internally. Why do we need need to do things? What does ESG actually mean? There is a complex ah buzzword that we use all the time, circular economy. So if you really want to integrate sustainability you will need to communicate a lot. So both teams heavily depend on each other, they need each other every day and that's why we have made it one huge team.
00:27:25
Speaker
One buzzword that always comes up in in communications these days is authenticity. yeah and We also talked a little bit in our pre-conversation about this. What works well when it comes to authenticity for you and what is a little bit more complicated? Being authentic, I think that is is is the key because you need to be in a way, honest about yeah um what works and what doesn't work. And that's also something that we discuss internally a lot because a lot of super people say like, oh, this year we haven't managed to reach our targets. yeah For instance, we have a diversity target that we didn't manage to reach last year.
00:28:06
Speaker
I say usually, yeah, let's be transparent. Let's tell the world we didn't manage our it targets. And that's being honest. That's being authentic because it happens all the time. So why would it happen with sustainability? We set targets and some we achieve and others we don't.
00:28:27
Speaker
yeah and being honest about it, why we didn't achieve it. There might be good reasons why that didn't happen. We, for instance, have material targets that we also didn't achieve last year. Why? Because pricing changed, prices for Virgin would go down, yeah and that was a good reason for our customers to move away from recycled content. And if you explain that, it's very authentic, I believe, and people would understand that. Yeah.
00:28:56
Speaker
so Everyone knows that you miss in life at one point, that you don't make all your, you know, your targets even as a private person. Yeah. Sometimes you set yourself goals and they don't work. Yeah. I think that's one of the big keys of authenticity to bring your whole self or bring your whole organization to the table and just say, Hey, yes, I know I'm also not perfect.
00:29:18
Speaker
We are also saying we have a problem. the The plastics economy that we see today is wrong, but we still need plastics. There's also agreement around that. So let's change it. Yes, exactly. and I think that's key. And that should be one of the first questions like, do you see your problem? And do you see yourself in a role to change that? and And that's also like, I started therapy when I was 22, something like that.
00:29:48
Speaker
And one of my back then therapists always told me was she said, there are three steps in therapy. The first is observing. You observe that you have a certain behavior. Second is you understand why you have this kind of behavior. And then the third is you change. So I think that's also the process whenever we have change in organizations. So I think that very much relates to what you just said.
00:30:13
Speaker
Absolutely. Stefan, before we go to the three final questions, do you have any questions from me? How do you get to the podcast? what What drove you to do a sustainability podcast? Very good question. I liked listening to podcasts. So they are a big part of my life whenever I go shopping, whenever I walk to a business meeting, I listen to podcasts. So I'm a big fan of the format.
00:30:37
Speaker
And back when I was studying at university, what I learned were the examples of BMW, of Siemens, of all these big companies who are not very sustainable. And working in sustainability, being a marketing strategist, working in sustainability, I thought, I think the good companies, the companies that are actually doing progress also need some kind of a stage.
00:31:01
Speaker
And I happen to know some people, I'm lucky to know some people who actually drive that change. So I thought maybe I can give them the stage and thus tell other companies, other people who are responsible for sustainability in certain areas, hey, there are other great companies out there who are also on the way of getting there, who are also not perfect. Because I think whenever we talk about perfectionism and sustainability, we've already lost. um There is no black and white or no black and green.
00:31:31
Speaker
Sustainability is a progress. And my goal was to show that there is actually progress happening and that companies can learn from each other. And honestly, I think the person who learned the most is me having the chance to talk to people like yourself about these things and just better understanding what are challenges that companies face, what are positive things like the bonus system that you mentioned that maybe can also be applied to everybody else. So for me, it's just a big learning opportunity for myself and for the listeners.
00:32:01
Speaker
Great. So final three questions. Do you feel ready? Yeah, let's do that. So what is good marketing or good communications to you in three words? Three words, communications marketing. I would say it's creative. Yeah, creativity plays a huge role. o Engaging is also something that comes to my mind when thinking about good marketing.
00:32:27
Speaker
And I believe it's also targeted in a way that you know it's not just you know one message that that tries to fit all. We are so different. The needs of people in society are so different. different So I think good marketing is also targeted and and reflects on the diversity of of people.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah, especially the last point i've I've been reading about 100 trend reports while I was traveling now over the holidays. And one thing that comes up again and again is niche communities because people are more and more in online life going to those really small communities where people, where they find like-minded people. And I think for brands, there's a huge potential to provide added value to those communities and thus position themselves as a trustworthy source, as an authentic player in the market, and then maybe also attract some business through that.
Authenticity in Marketing's Future
00:33:25
Speaker
yeah Second question, what is the future of marketing and communications?
00:33:29
Speaker
That is easy because you mentioned that already. You put the words and into the room here. Authenticity, I believe. If if marketing you know doesn't fit your purpose, doesn't fit your values, doesn't fit what what consumers see, and it's not authentic, I think it will never work. Final question. Is there a book that you would like to recommend here and is it about paddle tennis?
00:33:57
Speaker
No, it's not about paddle tennis. There's no book for that. There's more YouTube videos on how to improve with paddle tennis. Books, I've been just coming back from from holidays, from my Christmas break, and I lot of ah read a lot of crime books yeah that I enjoy. But there was also one book that I can um recommend, and that is a book by a Dutch historian, and that is Rutger Bregman.
Recommended Reading: 'Moral Ambition'
00:34:26
Speaker
And the book is called Moral Ambition. yeah And I had you know read books from him before, but this one I really liked because the book is about people who took action, who changed the world. There's 200 pages of stories of people who stopped complaining,
00:34:49
Speaker
yeah but doing things. Starting from people who thought that slavery was wrong, yeah and then they started writing petitions, organized you know rallies against slavery.
00:35:05
Speaker
others would see that you know health in Africa is obviously a challenge and then they they built organizations to improve health care in Africa. So that was a beautiful book because it was so optimistic about Yeah, taking action. It was encouraging yeah not to sit down and say like, oh yeah, the world is falling into pieces. you know We're not going to make 1.5 degrees. We've passed that point. But that book is is is great because it's encouraging to stop complaining and and you know continue our work that that we do here.
00:35:45
Speaker
Thank you so much. That sounds like a book I would also enjoy. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you for sharing your insights. Thank you for coming on the show. I know you have a busy schedule, so I really appreciate you taking the time speaking with me. It was a pleasure. And I hope we get to talk soon again. For sure. Thanks for the invitation. And yeah, all the best for the upcoming podcast interviews. Thank you very much. See you soon. Bye.
Conclusion: Engage in Sustainability Marketing
00:36:14
Speaker
And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please forward it to a friend or a colleague. This would mean the world to me as I pour my heart and a lot of energy into producing this podcast with all the brilliant minds that share their perspective here.
00:36:31
Speaker
And if you are curious to use the huge potential of sustainability marketing for your own brand and you know the value that a great marketing strategy brings to really connect with your target audience, give me a call or send me a message. I'd love to get to know you and your projects. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok or through my newsletter, where I write in-depth thought pieces that help you build a successful and exciting marketing strategy.
00:37:00
Speaker
Again, thank you so much for listening. I really look forward to sharing more with you in the future.