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Episode 29 - 1925 World Series
36 Plays1 year ago
Matchup between the Pittsburgh Pirates and the defending champion Washington Senators. We break down Walter Johnson's final world series in depth and play more "is he a HOF'er"
Stick around for our discussion on the Negro League stat merge and what is means for the sport going forward.
Twitter- https://x.com/TheCOBPodcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Baseball Updates
00:00:03
Speaker
Well, as Lou Brown once said to Willie Mays Hayes in the greatest baseball movie of all time, Major League, you run like Mays, but you hit like, what's up, everybody? Welcome to a another long overdue episode of Championship or Bus. It's been a while. How we doing? Max Zach and Josh are all here. We're ready to roll. We have a couple new Hall of Famers today and a lot of speed and some big baseball history news that came out this week ah that we got some feelings about. So let's get rolling. Josh, all yours. I'd just like to start by saying that you're opening from the last pod. It absolutely did not age well. You were correct. Yes, I know it did. I mean, I knew it was coming, but I had to get it in while I could.
00:00:46
Speaker
I think by the time it got actually released, it already didn't age well. That's true. I mean, as an Islander fan, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the Rangers lose. It was quite incredible. That was fun. I told you they were frauds that couldn't score 5 on 5. And all they did in the broadcast in the third period of the last game was talk about how they couldn't score 5 on 5. I know what I'm talking about. Gotta love our Temi Houdini. Yeah, really. Him and Zabana Jed. Nope.
1925 World Series Highlights
00:01:13
Speaker
Anyway, the 1925 World Series, the Pittsburgh Pirates against the defending champion, Washington Senators. This was a series remembered for really bad weather and really bad blown leads.
00:01:26
Speaker
So, game one would feature the big train, Walter Johnson, back at it again, throwing a complete game, giving up just one run on five hits, that only run being a solo homer from Pi Trainer. The Senators wouldn't score off a Joe Harris solo shot in the second inning, and a two-out, two-run single with the bases loaded from Sam Rice. They tack on an insurance run the ninth on an Aussie Blues single, and the Senators would take game one on a four-to-one win. Game 2, Senators jumping out to an early lead with a second inning solo shot from Joe Judge. But Glen Wright would tie the game with a solo shot of his own for the Pirates in the fourth. In the eighth inning, Kikei Cooler would hit a two-run homer following a Roger Peckinpah error. Down 3-1 in the ninth inning, the Senators would load the bases with no outs and only scored a single run by Sackfly. The Pirates would take the game, score of 3-2, and tie the series. That's just
00:02:24
Speaker
Bases loaded with no outs, that's pretty bad. Score one run, that's pretty bad. What are we, the Yankees? So game three would end up getting postponed today due to poor weather. But when the game would start, the Pirates would strike first in a back and forth game. A pie trainer triple followed by a sack fly would open up the scoring. Joe Judge doubles in a run for the Senators in the third. but the Pirates would take the lead back in the fourth inning on a Clyde Barnhart double and then add another in the sixth on a Ray Kremmer, yes, Ray Kremmer the pitcher, two-out single. The Senators would get one back on a Goose Gosselin home run in the bottom of the sixth, and it would take the lead in the seventh after a Joe Judd Sack fly and a Joe Harris RBI single. And that would be the game for a Senators win. Now, a memorable play ends up occurring in this game in the eighth inning.
00:03:14
Speaker
Uh, Senator Sam Rice runs after a line drive hit into right center field and Rice would make a catch diving into the temporary stands out there. And he didn't come out with a ball for like 15 seconds. So people were sitting around waiting to see what was going to happen. Uh, the pirates would contest the play saying, Hey, you know, a fan stuff into his glove. He never caught that, you know, something like that. Uh, but the call stood. and Rice would answer questions about that for the rest of his life. And he never actually answered the question, whether he made the catch or not. ah His typical answer, which the commissioner at the time thought it was the funniest thing he ever heard, ah just would say, the Empire said, I caught it, which is actually a great answer. ah And Rice left a sealed letter to the Hall of Fame to be opened upon his death. And when he died, they opened it up and it said, quote, at no time did I lose possession of the ball, end quote.
00:04:10
Speaker
That's awesome. That's the level of pettiness that I'm all for. That's awesome. So with the two to one lead in the series, the Senators would send out Walter Johnson for game four, and he would end up throwing his only postseason shutout of his career, throwing an absolute gem. Goose Gosselin and Joe Harris would hit back to back home runs. Excuse me, in the third inning, off of Emile Yeed. Yeed would be the first pitcher in World Series history to give up back-to-back homers. And that was all the offense in the game. And Senators would be up 3-1, 1-1 away from being back-to-back champs. Game 5 would open up really quick with the Pirates loading the bases in the top of the first inning, but even worse than the Senators, wouldn't even be able to score a run.
00:04:59
Speaker
And the Senators answered back in the bottom of the inning. Gus Cosmo would hit an RBI double to open up the scoring. The Pirates, however, would tie it up in the third from the Clyde Barnhart single, and then a pie trainer, Sack Fly, would give him the lead. Joe Harris would hit his third homer of the series to tie the game in the fourth. Back-to-back RBI singles from Kike Kuller and Clyde Barnhart in the seventh put the Pirates up 4-2. Sam Rice would sing a homerun for the Senators in the bottom of the inning to make it a one-run game. But the Pirates would score a run in the eighth off a Stuffy McKenna single and then score again in the ninth. And the Pirates take game five, holding off elimination. Game six. Senators strike first on a Goose Gosselin, would hit his third homer of the series, tying Joe Harris in the top of the first inning, and then add another run in the second on a Roger Peckinpo RBI double. But the Pirates picture Rae Kremmer, which shut him out for the rest of the game. In the third inning, the Pirates tied the game,
00:05:54
Speaker
and turned RBI ground out and then a pie trainer RBI single. Eddie Moore would homer for the Pirates in the bottom of the fifth inning. The solo shot would stand as a difference maker, tying the series and forcing it game seven. And of course, because the weather sucked, everyone would have to wait an extra day for game seven. And when they did take the field, the weather was still not good. But some would say that helped the giant the senators in the beginning. The Senators jumped out to a 4-0 lead in the first inning, knocking the starter pick-holders out of the game after three he surrendered two singles and three walks, getting just one out. Johnny Morrison would come in in relief, but a catcher's interference and error allowed two more runs to score in this game.
00:06:37
Speaker
Now, most Senators fans would think Walter Johnson's on the mound today. This is easy. He's been dominant in all series. We're going to win, but that would not be the case. The Pirates score three runs on their own in the bottom of third with RBI hits from any more Max Carey and Clyde Barnhart. The Senators would add two runs in the fourth inning off of Joe Harris to RBI double to get their lead back to three. But in the fifth, the Pirates of Scratch crossed a run and then tied the game in the seventh after an error followed by a mass carry RBI double and a PI trainer RBI single. Roger Peck and Paul would get the Senators the lead in the eighth inning, the solo shot off of Ray Kremmer who entered the game after pitching in game six just two days earlier. But in the bottom of the inning,
00:07:21
Speaker
Back to back two out doubles from Earl Smith and Carson Bigby tied the game. A walk and a fielder's choice loaded the bases and a cooler two run double put the Pirates ahead nine to seven. Red Oldham would retire the centers in order in the ninth to end the series.
00:07:39
Speaker
the Pirates winning the World Series, ah erasing a 3-1 deficit. Two errors from Roger Peckinpaul in both the 7th and 8th innings led to four unearned runs. Peckinpaul who won the AL MVP that year pretty much ruined game 7 all on his own. love the chok job but love it walkner But you gotta give the Pirates credit. They had 15 hits off of Walter Johnson in a really bad game. It was played in basically a downpour, and it was described as probably the worst conditions ever in a World Series.
00:08:20
Speaker
ah The Senators, outfielder Goose Gosselin, said that he couldn't even see home plate. in the last readings of the game and then also claim that the series winning hit was foul but nobody could see it because of the fog going back That's wild. Going back to Johnson giving up 15 hits, Bucky Harris took a lot of criticism ah for leaving him in and letting him you know get smacked around.
Hall of Fame Debates
00:08:50
Speaker
ah The fans didn't like it, and you know who really didn't like it? The head of the American League, ah Ben Johnson, wrote a telegram accusing Bucky Harris ah thring of not throwing, but failing to relieve Johnson for sentimental reasons.
00:09:07
Speaker
What? Oh my god. Yeah. ah Kind of wild there. But yeah, the Pirates were the first team to overcome a 3-1 deficit in a seven game series.
00:09:20
Speaker
And you've hit a bunch of the hall of famers already, which I think is a beautiful segue. We'll start with the losing senators who you just mentioned, Mr. Bucky Harris, player manager. It's a second world series in two years. Now he's one and one. Welcome back. Long time, no see Mr. Harris, ah number 20 manager between Danny Murdaugh and Leo DeRocher. Then we have Stan Kowalewski, who is his second appearance. It's been a little while since he's been here, but he's now 1-1. 0-2 with a 3.77 ERA, 1 complete game, 6 earned runs in 14 innings. 3-5 strikeout to walk ratios are rough for him, but I do have him in my level 1, level number 52 as a pitcher between Robin Roberts and Catfish Hunter.
00:10:02
Speaker
Welcome back. Goose Gosselin again. Long time no see second appearance now one and one. He had 308 with three home runs six RBI and a 1.072 OPS. I have him number 17 level one left field between Joe Medwick and Heidi minouche. Sam Rice, Josh's favorite player of all time. Uh, second appearance. You said some really rough things about him, which was really felt like there was some personal angst involved there. Um, but. Now he is back. King of the single hitter. Now he's what ah one and one in the series. um Two straight years. Twelve for thirty three. No extra base hits. Twelve singles. Ouch. No extra base hits. Who would have thought? But you know what? He died in 1974. He dove into the crowd and made a really nice catch. Good for him. He died in 1974. Let's let the man be.
00:10:58
Speaker
fly He did hit 364 with an OPS of 7.27. I do still have him level one, um number 24 right field between Chuck Klein and Kai-Kai Kyler. We have Mr. Walter Johnson, second appearance. Now he's one and one, two and one with a 2.08 ERA, six turn runs in 26 innings. So obviously he had that one rough game, but did pretty well than that. 15 to four strike out to walk ratio and he still remains the number one pitcher of all time. go But Rangers Juarez might test that if he can come up with that.
00:11:29
Speaker
Now back to the winning Pittsburgh Pirates. We have four newcomers, three Izzie Hall of Famer games. Welcome Mr. Phil McKechnie. This is not an Izzie Hall of Famer. He's a manager. um He did play from 1907 to 1920. He wasn't anything special. He had a three career war. um But he managed from 1915 to 1946, and he finally makes a World Series here, and he wins, so he's 1-0. 1,896 wins, 1,723 losses, so we have a 524 win percentage in 25 seasons. But spoiler alert, he will appear here a few more times, because he will win another title, and he'll make another 2 World Series.
00:12:07
Speaker
Still have four total appearances as the manager, and he will be discussed. um Definitely someone who belongs in Cooperstown, in my opinion, and he was elected in 1962. So he had about 10-ish years of eligibility. Remember, managers sometimes take a while. I had him the number 16 manager between Billy Southworth, who we briefly mentioned a few episodes ago, and Dick Williams. Stay tuned for future episodes on both of them. Uh, now it's time to play the favorite game of the podcast. Is he a hall of famer? And we only have winners this time from the world series. So let's start with the most notable because I'm going to, there's three guys here that I don't know what to do with, but welcome to the podcast pie trainer. Josh mentioned him a few times, probably the most well-known guy here in a historical context. He had nine MVP vote seasons.
00:12:53
Speaker
six top 10 MVP finishes in the 320 career batting average. But he had a 797 career OPS and a 107 OPS plus. He had 24, 16 hits, 58 home runs, 1,273 RBIs, and only a 38.7 war. Now, he did only strike out 278 times in 17 years. So in that respect, it's a bit refreshing. But to me, there's not much here yet. What's your thoughts right now? And then I'll explain kind of where this goes. The only thing that sticks out to me is that it's around 2,500 hits. I think you said like 24. Yeah. Yeah. But other than that, it's kind of borderline. I mean, it sounds like he was a good player for a long time than nine MVP votes. MVP year votes sounds good, but I would leave no time to vote. And Josh, what about you?
00:13:49
Speaker
Uh, it's kind of tough. I mean, you know, he doesn't have any magic numbers. He didn't play. I mean, he played pretty well. I played a 17 year career, but you know, the guy was a top 10 player in the league for top 10, 15 player in the league for a solid 10 year span. Uh, you know, I'd be hypocritical of, of things I've said about other players if I didn't say he belongs. So I'm going to say he belongs. What are you remaining consistent? I'm impressed. Um, I do agree with you, but for reasons that I haven't yet mentioned. So is it because he was a player manager for a couple of years? is that why he's in So believe it or not, several sources cite pie trainer as the single greatest third baseman pre 1950 in baseball history.
00:14:35
Speaker
Oh. And he was voted as the top third baseman ever in 1969 as part of an MLB celebration, kind of like the All Century team was but back then. I don't know what the actual team was, but he was voted the greatest third baseman of all time in 1969. Defensively? I guess. They rolled everything in. it was like it would They made like an all-time team, and he was the third baseman. I don't really get it. And the sabermetrics don't back him up either. So now like me, traditional nerd but versus the sabermetric nerds, we actually kind of agree on this one, but for different reasons. He was elected into the Hall of Fame in 1948, which was 11 years after his retirement. And it seems weird. So I guess like this was before they had the eligibility rules, but I guess technically he'd be like a fifth or sixth ballot Hall of Famer if we were looking in that terms.
00:15:26
Speaker
But he didn't have a tricky time getting in, and I don't really get it. I guess it has to be defensively. But as I think about it more, how many great third baseman are really pre-1950? Not many. yeah I don't know. im mean that's good I had to go look at his feeling stats and and obviously this is really hard to compare with it to nowadays and stuff, but the guy was committing 20 errors a year. no right so i I'm a little confused, but I mean, I did put them in because when you when you're considered the greatest their baseman ever from, you know let's just talk the modern era for a second, for 70 years of baseball,
00:16:02
Speaker
How do you keep him out, you know? So, like I said, I don't really get it. I guess it was eyeball and intangibles and all that stuff, but ah this series, he did hit pretty well. He was nine for 26, two triples in a home run, 3.46 batting average, 1.029 OPS. I have him as the last third baseman in my hole, ah number 13. I don't have a lot of third baseman in now that I think about it. And he just made it past the top step of the basement, mainly more for his ah importance to history and the folklore attached to him than his actual numbers. But i he just seems like a historically significant player, so I couldn't keep him out.
Negro League Statistics Discussion
00:16:40
Speaker
Moving forward, welcome to the podcast, Mr. Kai Kai Kyler. I know it's spelled like Kiki, but actually, according to baseball reference, it's actually pronounced Kai Kai Kyler.
00:16:50
Speaker
So elected in 1968. Excuse me for getting that one wrong. No, it's OK. I got it wrong for years. I learned that later on. So don't feel bad. But it's funny because I think I said last time I had an error too. I think I said last time that we don't get that we're fine. I could get to talk about it. And here we are a year later talking about it. um But he was an MVP runner-up this season in 1925 and three total top 10 MVP finishes received MVP votes in five years He led the league in stolen bases four times run scored twice doubles once and triples once he had 2299 hits in 1879 games had a career 321 average
00:17:28
Speaker
Wasn't a power hitter, 128 home runs, just over a thousand RBIs, 8.60 OPS and 125 OPS plus. He finished top 10 in the NL in batting average five times, hit six times, home runs twice and runs batted in five times. He only has a 48.1 career war and about seven points lower than the average seven year peak war for a right fielder. He will be here a few more times. This is his only title win. ah Is he a Hall of Famer? e For this guy I vote yes because they just sounded like he has an upgrade from all the other stats from the guy we were just talking about. I guess I think for the era this sounds pretty good so I would go yes here. Josh?
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, I would i would kind of have to kind of have to agree with you on that one. So Kyler's biggest problem was that he wasn't Rogers Hornsby. But you guys both have him in your hall, and I do too. But it's a little funny because I have him just above Tony Oliva as my 25th right fielder. And I have him just below Sam Rice. Oh, really? Going back to our next Is He a Hall of Famer, Max Carey. Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Max Carey, class of 1961 by a veterans committee peaked at about 50%. With the BBWAA wound up getting in later on. He's maybe most known for his role as a manager of the Milwaukee Chicks and the Fort Wayne daisies in the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League.
00:18:56
Speaker
um but He apparently was not like Jimmy Dugan though because he was a hell of a player himself. um This is from the couple people that played for him, but Sylvia Rosky said he was a perfect gentleman. She was a pitcher for the 1944 team and said, I have no clue who Tom Hanks was supposed to be like in a league of our own, but it sure wasn't Max Carey. So just a little interesting comp there um But a bit of a complicated whole thing case. So I'm interested your thoughts I understand why he was a veteran committee guy He had three seasons of MVP votes, but he never finished in the top ten career 265 average 108 OPS plus and a 55.6 war
00:19:36
Speaker
All right, here we go. 2,665 hits, 159 triples leading the league twice, led the league in stolen bases. All right, wait for this. 10 times. Wow. He had a career of 765 steals, which was an NL record at the time, and still ninth all time. This series, he went 11 for 24, 458 with a 1.177 OPS. Two runs batted in, four doubles, three stolen bases. Izzy O'Hall of Famer. sure you go I've been going first. I mean, ninth all-time in steals. And there are guys who have passed him since then, but he held the record at the time of retirement. The NL record. Yeah, I mean, I think the guy had a pretty good career.
00:20:29
Speaker
I don't think it was a great career, but the war speaks for itself. Yeah. ah yeah and I think he's more of a stat compiler, but the stolen bases, I think, is what pushes him in, so I'll go, yeah. That's fair, Zach. Yeah, I have to agree. The stats are there, and I'm a sucker for that you know the intangible, so the stuff with the female leaks is really cool, so I would definitely put him in for that stuff as well. Yeah, so I'm looking at it right now. The eight people ahead of us. We know you love small ball and stolen bases. It's okay. I mean, I do enjoy stolen bases, I will say that. But the eight people above Max Carey, six of them are in the Hall of Fame. The other two are Vince Coleman and Arlie Latham. Don't believe they were. Arlie Latham was a real, like, older than these guys. He started screwing 1880 and hit 269 back then. And Billy Hamilton.
00:21:25
Speaker
Well, the Hall of Famer Billy Hamilton's above him, but not the other Billy Hamilton. yeah yeah And then Vince Coleman was a career 264 hitter with a 12.5 war. So pretty much anybody who was a well above average hitter with these numbers have gotten in. And I do agree. I do have him in. um I have number 13 at center field level one between Andre Dawson and Carlos Beltran, who I still don't get how you guys are not for his case. I get it. I don't get it, man. But that's our game right there. So we we pretty much agree this time around not much disagreement All right The biggest news since we last recorded last Wednesday when we recorded this May 29th the MOB merged the Negro Leagues Negro League stats with the official and MLB database so they added over 2300 Negro League player stats to the MLB database and I think it's around nine Negro Leagues were officially recognized
00:22:21
Speaker
This has a ton of implications that we will get into just to name some big hitters So Negro League legend Josh Gibson is now the all-time leading all-time leader for single season batting average at 466 in 1943 and Gibson is now the all-time leader for career batting average at 372 surpassing Ticops 367 Gibson is also taking bonds as record for slugging percentage and OPS And but again, these, we're going to get into this in a little bit, but some of these stats are a bit finicky because they're, they're like, I'm not tall tales, but they're legends. Like supposedly Gibson has hit over 800 hormones in his career. The honest and black it says over 800. Right. And MLB is only crediting him with 174. I'm just going to put out my take. I don't, we don't need MLB to come down like decades later.
00:23:17
Speaker
and Like now be like, oh the Negro Leagues were good. We're gonna recognize them now they I should have done this before I think or they should have left it as it is You know, can I can I jump in here? za Yeah This is the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. Okay, this is not the baseball Hall of Fame. It's the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Okay, let me let me restart that question this is not These are not baseball records. These are MLB records. That's valid. There you go. Okay. Did these players play in Major League Baseball? Were these stats compiled in Major League Baseball?
00:24:03
Speaker
No, I have nothing against these players, the things they did, and how great they were. There's no denying that, there's no denying guys like Gibson were incredible players. No denying it whatsoever. But the simple fact of the matter is, the stats were not, they they did not happen in Major League Baseball. Are we gonna start counting Ichiro's hits in Japan to Major League Baseball records? Are we gonna start counting when they had women's leagues to Major League Baseball records? No! Because it didn't happen in Major League Baseball. I i just don't... I really don't understand it. And and honestly, it it undermines the Negro Leagues. Exactly. I think it absolutely undermines the Negro Leagues. I think we're better off... doesn doesn't make so It doesn't make sense to me at all.
00:24:51
Speaker
Because you know if the women's league suddenly turned around and they added all of their records to Major League Baseball, I think that the women would be kind of upset. Because they don't because if you look at the stats for women's leagues, nobody was hitting 400. The best players were hitting high 200s, low 300s, which is it's not going to be a record. And they didn't play long enough careers to have any sort of number that would have contested with a Major League Baseball record. So if they suddenly added those records to Major League Baseball records, you wouldn't even notice it. And I think that you would see people get upset over it. Like, why would you ever do this or you're undermining us? Which would, which I think would be the same case for the Negro League had their numbers not be comparable, right but because they played less games a year where the stats weren't taken seriously.
00:25:46
Speaker
A lot of, a lot of games were exhibitions and barnstorming events. And a lot of those aren't even recorded. Which were not recorded or just fabled like Gibson's 800 home runs. And yeah, the guy absolutely could have hit 800 home runs. But you also think that the pitchers he was facing were as good as a Major League Baseball pitchers. I'm sure some of them were. Don't get me wrong. yeah But as as a total group, I don't believe that. But to me, this is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever done. There are so many better ways to honor the Negro League players and the accomplishments they've had than to do something as boneheaded as this. Yeah, i I agree and disagree. I mean, I agree with you in the sense that
00:26:37
Speaker
I think this was kind of a little bit rash, and I feel a little uncomfortable trying to have all the stats together and trying to compare players from two completely different leagues. I do disagree with you that um the competition was uneven. From everything I've looked at, it probably was even. it might have been However, they're two completely different leagues, and in the case of- Well, I mean, you know if you want to make the point that the competition was better, then the guys in the MLB are getting you know screwed here. Here's my concern with this because like the They only played about 60, 70 games a year, not at most. The most games Josh Gibson played in the season was 69 games, and that was season he hit 466. How many times have we seen guys who play half a season and they have gigantic batting averages and gigantic OPSs and all of this stuff? And the trade-off is that- The ice was hitting over 450 games in the season last year. And his total stats are down. And look, I wish, I really wish that we could have seen
00:27:37
Speaker
like what Josh Gibson and what Satchel Paige and what Oscar Charleston and Cool Papa Bell could have done in a 162 game season for 20 years. The reality is we didn't get to do that. And I think honestly, we're better off looking at it as kind of a black stain on history and understanding what um these guys were able to do given the circumstances that they were given. And the case of Josh Gibson's career ended at 34 because he was, I believe he was sick and ended up having a stroke and passing away soon after. Yeah, he died at 35. Yeah, he died in 1947, his last season was 1946. So his career got cut short to begin with. And then we have guys like Roy Campanella, whose career got cut short, wound up paralyzed.
00:28:27
Speaker
you know, all these stats are incomplete. um I'm very happy for the living Negro League players who seem to be happy about this and Fergie Jenkins who seemed to be happy about this. um But I think we can draw, I kind of draw the line at the records. I'm totally cool with calling the Major League players 100% because they didn't get the option to be Major League players and that was completely wrong. But to say to try to compare and contrast the records, I think i I don't see how that works because all the totals are going to go to the Major League players because they played more than double the games every year.
00:29:07
Speaker
And all the rate stats are going to go to the NN2 and the NNL because they played half the games. yeah Of course the rate stats are going to be higher. There's a much smaller sample size. I think this honestly did nothing. um I like the fact, other than the fact that maybe they acknowledged their greatness a little bit more, which I think is good. But I don't like the idea of trying to compare with these circumstances. If they were ever able to get every single record from all the barnstorming games and go back and the reality is that's never going to happen. I'd be cool with that. But right now, like I'm glad we got more numbers. and I see. I don't know how cool I would be with that. But the barnstorming stuff, because barnstorming was illegal in Major League Baseball. You would get banned. The guys did get banned for barnstorming.
00:29:59
Speaker
Babe Ruth got in trouble for barnstorming. i'm willing to open the door for that because then at least then we have a comparable amount of games sure that's where i'm at with it like Yeah, they weren't allowed to barnstorm, but these guys weren't allowed to play more than 70 games a year with stats documented. Or at least we don't have more than 70 games in the season documented. Right. So if you just like to take to kind of even up the games played to even up the rate stats a little bit, then great. I mean, if we're looking at Josh Gibson in the vacuum and saying he led the league in home runs seven, eight, nine, 11 times, led the league in RBIs seven times, led the league in batting average three times, that's great. All for that.
00:30:39
Speaker
i I love the fact that they're finding these statistics and they're continue trying to do this research, but I just don't see with the circumstances given how these can be comparable. And I'm not saying once um one was a superior league over the other. I don't know enough on that, but I think they should both be considered major leagues, but their stats should not be Compared I 100% agree and it goes back to what we were saying it almost undermines and diminishes the why of the Negro Leagues like why did they exist and the importance of why do we learn about the Negro Leagues in school and the fact that Guys like Josh Gibson didn't get to play in Major League Baseball says a lot about the times all that is very important They've done so many good things with the Negro Leagues in the last few years where they really brought a lot of attention to it, you know in in the major media outlets and
00:31:31
Speaker
You know, I know you guys don't really play it, but you know, the MLB, the show games, they've really made a point of. Frigging stories and Negro leagues into the game where you can watch old footage and and learn about some of the best players, guys like Gibson, you know, as, and it's really, it's really cool. And you know, they should be teaching in history because it is history. It's baseball history, but it's not major league baseball history. You know, every league has their own stats and every league has their own. leaders and and such Japan has their own leagues Korea has their own leagues Mexico has their own leagues you know you name a country they got their own thing right and the only argument I can see here is well they weren't allowed to play yeah that's they weren't allowed to play and unfortunately that was the way the world was back then and it just feels like a rewriting of history for me which I am not personally for it just feels like people want to put a blanket over their eyes and pretend this didn't happen
00:32:26
Speaker
right i see that's the thing is i don't I don't particularly understand who this is for. right yeah right The majority of these guys, and especially the ones holding the records, these guys aren't alive anymore. yeah yeah and I'm all for the research because I want their stories told. like we We saw a recent Hall of Fame classes. Buck O'Neill finally got in, who should have been in 20 years ago when they started doing the Negro League ballots and allowed him. and He actually spoke on behalf of all the guys who got elected when he himself didn't make the cut. And then he gets in now. And then we have Bud Fowler who was considered like the first African-American baseball player ever. He finally got in because he was forgotten over time and now he's found out. I like that. But like I said, like put, you know, have the Hall of Fame, you know, do more research on the Negro League Committee, keep adding those guys in, keep telling those stories. But like, let's have all of our record holders for both. Right. Make more for everybody.
00:33:24
Speaker
Make it a point to learn about these guys and say, wow, isn't it a crime that they aren't in Major League Baseball? Not incorporate them later when it doesn't make any sense. I think it's better off being that what if like yes historical nature. I agree. I mean, to me, it's it's quite simple. And I think we all kind of on the same page here is that these guys absolutely deserve to be talked about. They are great players and they all deserve their places in Cooperstown. But they do not deserve to be in the Major League Baseball record books because they did not play Major League Baseball. Yeah, I mean, it's not
00:34:00
Speaker
anything about deserving to me, it's just the fact that like they're, and put, but have the record books for everybody, but don't change either side. You know what I mean? yeah Have all this research, have all this information and acknowledge everybody. In the case of Satchel Paige, like we know Satchel Paige has a lot more than 125 wins. All right. Why are we trying to act like those are his stats? Those are not his stats. So to try to say that these are the finalized stats and we'll continue to research, but we haven't met 125 wins. Well, no, he probably has about five or 600 wins, but it it almost undermines that legendary figure of Satchel Paige to say he has 125 wins. Right. And I did want to throw this back to Mac because when this initially happened, we had a quick conversation and I asked about what did the NBA and the ABA do when they merged. and i
00:34:54
Speaker
they They are separate right? so Basketball reference has the NBA and ABA lined up together They total up the stats on you know how they have for like when you have different teams Yeah, like you know you'll have your total stats for your career You'll have your total stats from the Yankees and you'll have your total stats from the Giants. Let's say you played on three teams They'll have the list so they do total and NBA stats, they do the total stats from everything, and NBA stats, ABA stats, and then they break it down by team there. Which I think is reasonable. The only difference between the NBA and ABA that I didn't bring up with you before, that I do think kind of fits this conversation because it came up organically here is that
00:35:36
Speaker
A lot of people did look at the ABA as kind of a quote-unquote inferior league. It was different. When Julius Irving was in the ABA, he was in the ABA from ages 21 to 25. He averaged approximately 12 to 13 rebounds a game. And then when he got to the NBA, he never averaged above eight and a half again. And there's a lot of guys who won and MVPs in the NBA and the aba or came close to any MVPs in the ABA that didn't necessarily have the same numbers in the NBA. I don't think that's the case for the neighbor leagues and the major leagues. I think it would have been a lot different because we saw how great Jackie Robinson was the second that he signed. on And Julius Irving was still great, but in terms of his totals, um he has 30,026 points in total.
00:36:27
Speaker
18,000 of that came from the NBA, 11,662 came from the ABA. I don't really hear a lot of people talking about Julius Irving as a 30,000 point scorer. And I'd be okay with, I actually, on my list, I do consider that, I do consider him a 30,000 point scorer, but I have that little thought in the back of my head of like, okay, would these numbers have been a little different? So i the difference though between this and the neighborly's also is that we have every stat from the ABA. We don't have every stat. So i i don't I feel a little bit better making the comparisons and understanding that the ABA was probably a little bit lower quality than the NBA, but it was more fun. It had the red, white, and blue ball and all that stuff. But in this case, we don't have all the records. So I just don't think it's right to try to build up. I think it does a lot of people with disservice. But of listen, if it makes the former players happy, then great.
00:37:27
Speaker
gotcha I definitely that was my first like thought of my eggs the comparison, but I definitely understand the competition thing Yes, it's definitely a valid comparison. It's just there's a couple of extra caveats in there I'd also like to say it's you know speaking on the merger of leagues, you know, you know the NHL merged with the WHA Yes, yeah and they did not honor any stats from the WHA and And the NFL AFL had the same thing. And that's really from like the early chiefs and jets and Colts that ah eventually led to the merger. They're pretty like, it depends on who it really honestly, it depends on what players we're talking about with Joe Namath. He's looked at more as an NFL guy, but then there's other players that are looked at more as AFL guys. And it's kind of inconsistent. All right. Um, I'm going to move on.
00:38:23
Speaker
Mac again asked me to bring this up and I think I know where he's going to go with this. I'll just read the headline and throw it back to him. I can't even say this player's name, right? It's proprietary. But yeah, we got a caller request on this one, actually. A caller request? Oh. Yeah, so it was from Mike in Boston and he wrote me a really nice letter.
MLB Gambling Policies Examination
00:38:43
Speaker
He said, hi, Mike. It's Mike. I'm a huge fan. You're just an awesome person, really good looking man. right um and I love you so, so much. i'm kidding He didn't actually say that, but it just made me feel good to get this request. so Thank you, Mike and Boston, for this request. he said i want We want to hear your thoughts. The MLB is being hypocrites for punishing for gambling while taking money from multiple gambling sites. I want to know the podcast's opinions. Those are the the words, not the good-looking part. I made that up. but
00:39:09
Speaker
okay Um, well, Pirates player 2supida Marcano is facing a lifetime ban from baseball after being accused of betting on games. So again, he wasn't proven. It's accused. So I see where the hypocrisy is coming in. Go ahead. You want my take first or? Yeah. Okay. So did he get, wait, did he, did did he he, he got suspended? Mm-hmm. He's facing one. It's very definitely, I believe. Yeah, haven't there's no verdict yet. And this happened last year, apparently. But, uh... What about Otani? Oh, thank thank you, Josh. Thanks for bringing that up. I think that's where we're going with this whole thing. Well, that's that's the real question. I mean, in terms of just this particular case and not tying in Otani, I think um the NBA had the same thing with John T. Porter a couple months ago.
00:40:02
Speaker
And it's the scary part of gambling. It's the dark side of gambling. How, how are you going to police this? I'm worried about the long-term. relevance in the long-term integrity of sports because it's so much more accessible and it's so much easier to get around the rules. Honestly, at this point, it's almost like taking get popping for a PED test. You're an idiot if you get caught. And the real question for me and the scary part for me is how many of these guys are doing it and not getting caught? And every time I you know make a little wager, that thought is in the back of my head when someone all of a sudden you know
00:40:43
Speaker
goes over four-by-four strikeouts and makes two errors in the field, it's, you know, oh, something's up here, what's going on? Or every time, you know, the Rangers are playing the Panthers in game six and I pick the Panthers to win by two or more and certain someone decides to score a goal with a minute left after disappearing the whole damn series and I start to raise my eyebrow. Not saying anything is fishy, but you know it's just it just makes you think in the moment, because you know the brain does irrational things when you know you lose. And you think of these guys who are so ultra competitive and so skilled to get to this level. And in a lot of cases, they were the best player growing up, the best player in high school, the best player in college. How often are they being told no? How often are they being told, hey, you might not want to do that. There's a lot more people doing this.
00:41:39
Speaker
and I where Mike from Boston said ah the MLB is being hypocrites. Yeah, they are but so is every other leak and If the money is green they're gonna take it and that's what sucks You know, I was all for the sports gambling and I kind of regret it now, I'm gonna be honest But I'll turn it over to you guys
00:42:08
Speaker
I mean, if the league tells you don't gamble, don't gamble. It's that hard. I mean, really. I mean, I mean understand, I understand it's fun and it's it's an addicting thing to do, but like... Yeah. You know, if the league tells you don't do steroids, the league tells you don't do weed, the league tells you don't sports gamble, and you want to go do these things, well... You're an idiot if you get caught, sorry. i just It's really that simple. I think the compromise is and I'm sure it's it'll be in the next CBA, is that whatever profit and MLB makes from gambling
00:42:40
Speaker
Worldwide and from the gambling sites and all those odd boosts in the sponsorships that has a certain percentage has to go into The fire's payrolls. I doubt you'll ever see that. i I do like that idea that that's the only way and then it's listen Like now you're getting benefited from the gambling that's a scary world. you You are not to gamble. Here's your here's your client You're you are to play and play with integrity and if not, I think you have to sound more guys I think you have to see more guys get caught trouble i think um will or something like that gets brought up This is two and two months and I believe Who was the angel player that was accused of being with eBay? Oh Was it even Fletcher? I didn't know this was a thing It was a there was a story and he didn't do it wasn't baseball Yeah, David Fletcher's under a mob. Yes investigation for allegedly gambling with the same bookie as eBay and
00:43:36
Speaker
Not baseball related, I don't, yeah, he's not accused of betting on baseball, but can if he's using an illegal gambler and he's a professional baseball player making millions of dollars, is that so far out of the question? Right. No. No, and you're right about all that, and sure, I'm 10% right. Not for anything. If you're a baseball player betting through an illegal bookie, gambling is legal in a bunch of states now, and you go to a bunch of states the Can you not gamble while you're in California and gamble while you're flying to New York or when you're flying to Ohio or when you're flying to Pennsylvania? like yeah I'm lost here. so i just i mean it you know it It is kind of hypocritical of the league. whereas you know they They get so much money and they're advertising this on everything, you know and anything that they can touch their advertising it on.
00:44:29
Speaker
you know I said the same thing about the NHL when Pinto got suspended for half a season for for gambling, not even on hockey. um but you know you know He got in trouble and the Senators have ah have a betting app on their helmet. Yeah, it's ridiculously hypocritical, but if the league tells you don't do these things, yeah you know who who do you think you are that you're so special that you can do it anyway? I just i don't get it. 100% agree. Yeah. paid athlete It should be easy and simple.
00:45:04
Speaker
In other, I guess, normal baseball news, remember when everyone was worried about Aaron Judge? He you reminded everyone he's the best player on the planet? Yeah, I think he's okay now. I think he's all good now. I'm happy about that. That makes me happy. Helping my fantasy team. But you know who's not helping my fantasy team? oh Raul Acuna Jr. and his destroyed legs. all right pay That one just hurts, man. The shareholder stock hurts there, let me tell you. It just hurts for baseball in general. It does. It stinks. Yeah, it's terrible. By the way, Aaron Judge is on pace for 56 home runs. Jesus, man.
00:45:43
Speaker
speaking Speaking of terrible, I agree i regret to inform you that whoever I draft this year in fantasy hockey is going to tear their ACL because I'm now two for two. ah With Acuna, my first round pick, tearing his ACL Chubb tearing his ACL in football. So I just want just want to warn you, whoever I picked this year in fantasy hockey, he's not going to make it very long. Who's that in mind when you make your selection? I have to, which means I gotta pick somebody on a team I really don't like, maybe, you know, Panarin or Matthews. I mean, Panarin screwed my bet over, so... I don't know, I mean, Panarin is, you know, he's a regular season hero, just like Matthews, all those guys. 82 games a year, Panarin, and nothing else. Yeah, really.
00:46:24
Speaker
you know, like Sabre South and into the Stanley Cup Final. There we go. Listen, listen, I root for the Panthers because Kyle O'Bosom and, you know, he was, he lived through some really bad years with the Islanders. up below And he was good with the Islanders in the playoffs, the, you know, the very little time he had, he, you know, got, but he was really good. And, you know, he lives through dark times with the Sabres and yeah, he doesn't really play much, but I, he deserves to lift a cup. I'm just sad that Sam Reinhardt was so made with us and then immediately has a 50 goal season after he leaves. It's just unbelievable. Yeah, that's what happens when you have the line mates. It's unbelievable. We'll say it's on the line with Barkov and Tachuk. Yeah. Yeah. Who is at the either of their skill level on the Sabres? No one. Exactly. Yeah. That's unbelievable.
00:47:15
Speaker
Try to think oh, well Josh isn't Edwin Diaz also helping your fancy team yeah that was the also helping my fancy team I I've been debating the last few days if he's even worth like holding a roster space anymore or not Because I'm all all full on IELTS lots. I'm kind of just I'm kind of just to do but what's that About Yeah, yeah cuz you were complaining that you didn't have enough IELTS lots a month ago. Yeah. Thanks. Sure. I Yeah, well, now i'm I'm full because I got i got Lewis on IL, I got Turner on IL, and I got McLean on IL. And I'm debating. Somebody's got to go at this point. Turner's supposed to be back soon-ish, but nobody knows. Lewis must to be back within a month. McLean may never come back. God knows.
00:48:05
Speaker
Uh, and Diaz, but Diaz was just bad. Like he was bad. airin So I don't know you know. You know, dude, I was, I was really happy at coming out of our draft with the three guys I got with Diaz, Diaz and Hader and all three of them have been horrible. Yeah, I know. Like so bad. Unbelievable. Yeah. Hader's been rough. I was like, I got the three but i got best closures in baseball. You know better now. Yeah. I mean, Yeah, he's doing better now. but he I think he was like a net zero after the first month of the season. Which he'll probably tarryl and I thought he was, uh, you know, he's on my team. I never want to see this year and I want to see him this year and he's hitting under 200. Now he's batting eighth tonight. Yeah. I mean, nothing is better than when you informed Zach last night that, uh, Tarleton was sitting down because he was hitting 200 and like 201 and he was like, Oh, yeah oh he is. I didn't know that. It's crazy. and I'm still winning with this. Apparently my team is terrible and I'm still winning get a week. So I didn't know this.
00:49:00
Speaker
I mean, you're renting a picture every day, so it helps. I rented a picture today and he and he did not do well. ah Mackenzie Gore got his absolute, you know, yeah got smacked around by the Mets of all teams. Oh, that's embarrassing. That i know should be embarrassing. The Mets. who disgust like The fact that Cohen said that team would be competitive this year, disgrace. speaking of Mets I mean can you really blame Cohen he's put all this money into it he's done everything he can to get players and every time he gets a player they just play like absolute crap for him speaking of Mets though what's your thoughts on Jorge Lopez guys
00:49:37
Speaker
no wow Uh, I think it's, uh, I think, uh, you know, yeah, he's a clown. That's right. He's a clown. I mean, throwing your glove into the stands thing. That's so childish, but but you know, there's, there's really nothing to that other than a guy that's really frustrated. ah I don't think he should have been internally, internally, you suspend the guy, you sit him down, give him a talking to, yeah, guys are a lever. Anyway, he spent it for three games. He was playing those three games anyway. And I don't think he meant team.
00:50:10
Speaker
at all I see I don't know man this is what it doesn't sound like team at all yeah you have to give him an interpreter in that situation and you're gonna turn around like and people are gonna say oh big these morons oh you know why they need to translate this is why they need this is right especially this is exactly why they need a translator you need this is why Oh Tani doesn't go anywhere without his translator yeah mean certainly he certainly was going certain places with him yeah Allegedly allegedly allegedly I mean, I mean listen listen, let's be real though Lopez's is awful like he's Not good at all whatsoever The Mets are not gonna miss them. I mean, I mean the guy no, I mean I mean it is but I
00:51:03
Speaker
The guy is not a good player. No, he's not. He's he's really bad, actually. No, he's not good. He's he's really bad. like i mean hes my career His career area is over five. Believe it or not, this year only 3.76. Yeah, I know. This is one of his best years ever. I just. No wait, first again, talking in the realm of Mets, who thought that Seth Lugo would be leading the league in ERA? Yeah, what's going on with that? Not me, but it's funny because all the Mets fans were sad to see him go because I thought he was a really good player. Maybe the Mets coaching is just bad. Do you guys remember the stat comp of Seth Lugo versus Marcus Schulman and we were making fun of him? Yeah, oh my god. And how I would rather have Seth Lugo than Marcus Schulman, I'm looking in red hot right now. You most definitely would now.
00:51:48
Speaker
I mean, I don't think anyone really wanted Strowman to be real. Hey, I have on film now on podcast airwaves. Here we go. That you guys were happy with him and I was wrong for wanting him or not wanting him rather. And he's doing pretty well, I have to say, but I would have rather had said the Lugo. And apparently I was right. If you look at the staff, the whole staff this year has been great for the Yankees. You don't even want to get rid of heel now. Carlos Rodon's back. Yeah. I mean,
00:52:27
Speaker
yeah i i mean it really is crazy how many wins the Yankees have with the starting pitching that, you know, we, we all sat there going, well, Cole's gone. So we're screwed now. yeah All these guys have stepped up. I don't even Cortez who hasn't really been good. He really hasn't gotten like blown out of the water either. Yeah. He gives a lot of hits, and he gives up runs, but he's not like, you know, he's he's not having games where he's giving up, you know, seven runs on eight hits or something like that. like all being serviceable <unk>s been good unbelievable team so of is that dude He is. like yeah I can't wait. I can't wait for him to be a Met next year. stop saying that please Just kidding. I don't, he's not gonna be a Met. Nobody would be stupid enough to go to that team, but I don't know.
00:53:09
Speaker
Chance of him being a Yankee, Adam. Not sure, man. No, especially if the Yankees can win or make it close to winning. I think they'll give him pause on going to a different team. ah But he's already got his ring. Why? Well, you know, yeah, it's time to get his money and we all know we all know how things go. It's got Boris land. Well, yeah. And Steinbrenner made a comment. I think it was about a week or two ago now. So the payroll is not sustainable. Yeah, it was not sustainable. Yeah. Guy got up those chicken buckets to $40 now. Somebody take Stanton, please. Somebody get rid of him. No one's taking Stanton. Yeah, I mean, if every position player you have is being paid, you know, top tier money, of course it's unsustainable. Yeah. But I mean, Glaver is playing himself right out of the contract. Yeah, I mean, you got to, Glaver's got to go. Lemayhu's got to go. Stan's got to go.
00:54:03
Speaker
Well, the thing you know the the real problem with Stan is that he can't put the guy in the field. Nope. And he's playing actually very well this year. He is also. He is playing very well. Which is a trade value. You can't put the guy in the field. Can't run. you know But funny, as we say he's hitting well. For his standards, he's hitting well. He's hitting 231 with a 113 OPS plus. Yeah, but he's got, yeah, I mean, you're right. He's hitting well for his standards. He's hitting well for his, eight he's Adam Dunn. is that but Yeah, but I mean, if you're gonna have a, if you're gonna have an outfield of Verdugo, Judge, and and Soto, you know, at some point, I mean, cause it's gonna come back and he's your, you know, he's your big prospect. He's your big outfield prospect.
00:54:47
Speaker
But in theory, you'll make a lot of money if you keep standing for 84 more home runs and you market the hell out of the 500 home run thing. You'll probably be the last guy to hit 500 home runs for a long while, and then you can keep standing then so it'll make your money back. Is Dan going to hit that many home runs? I i mean, if he keeps hitting, if he's hitting like, if he can be at and done for the rest of his career, I think he can. That's why we had three heads just above the Mendoza line. Well, yeah, that's sad and done. If he hits 30 this year, he'll be at 432. Yeah, he's probably at three years, age 37. That's actually doable. If he's not fielding, I mean... Yeah, that's doable. If he's not fielding, I don't see why he can't. That's a crazy stat to think about, oh my god.
00:55:40
Speaker
I mean, I can't think of anybody who's going to get close to that number again right now. I mean, ah judge i'll put it but he's hurt all the time. He's forced. He's 54th all time and most reactive players. What about Freddie? Freddie isn't that, I guess he hits average boys. Well, both are active. um Stanton with 416. It's trout with 378. It's gold. It's a Vado with 356 Goldschmidt 347 Aranado 330 and Freeman 328 So he needs about 170 and he's 34 years old Yeah, he's not gonna I don't think so either Bryce Harper will probably make it he's has 320 at age 31 Yeah, that would be my next bet
00:56:27
Speaker
Manny Machado has two less same age. It'll probably be those two. Oh, like three age in class. Yeah. And then Carlos Santana is just a weird outlier here at 309.
00:56:42
Speaker
And that wraps up the 1925 episode of Championship or Bust. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time.