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DSC: "Lagrange Point" (s5e9) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
79 Plays12 days ago
RUNNING IN PLACE? As Discovery closes in on the Progenitors' technology, Saru and Federation negotiators must deal with the Breen. It's the penultimate episode of Star Trek: Discovery and Bryan & Shereese seek to determine if it's a Trek, Marry, or Kill.
The grades begin at (26:41).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Trek Mary Kill Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Keyhole. Gap. Portal. Let's do this. We're after the power of creation. Notify discovery. They need to get moving now. We have to get it on
00:00:24
Speaker
This is insane. Maybe we leave in ten.
Overview of 'Lagrange Point' Episode on Star Trek Discovery
00:00:48
Speaker
Trek Mary Kill, a podcast where we judge episodes of Star Trek with all the tenacity of a starship captain hanging off the side of an enemy ship that's traveling at warp speed. This week, we're discussing Lagrange Point, the penultimate episode of Star Trek Discovery.
00:01:03
Speaker
Last week, it was fun to say anti-penultimate. Now I just get to say penultimate. Are you gonna say ultimate next time or are you gonna say final? Because I feel like it doesn't match if you don't say ultimate. The ultimate episode. The ultimate series finale. ah That's next week. This week though, Legrand's Point premiered on Paramount Plus May 23, 2024.
00:01:26
Speaker
written together by Sean Cochran and Ari Friedman, directed by Jonathan Frakes, Mr. Mayor of Star Trek himself, yes. ah Memory Alpha describes this one. After Maul and the Breen capture a mysterious structure that contains a progenitor's power, Captain Burnham must lead a covert mission to retrieve it before the Breen figure out how to use it. What Memory Alpha doesn't tell us is, ah well, actually,
00:01:50
Speaker
Kind of think they nailed it. Seems pretty clear. um I question how covert the mission is when they're in disguise as the locals. I don't think SEAL Team Six went in dressed as locals. I think they just tried to use cover of knights, not be detected. I mean, there's two different kinds of camouflage, right? I guess so. iney paint And then there's just the blending. So they went with blending. Sure, but Adira is on this mission and they are much shorter than everybody, as discussed in this interview that I'm going to quote from for a second. And the universal translators don't immediately load. ah They don't know their way around the ship.
00:02:37
Speaker
They don't know the cultural context of discussions, you know, if if we're thinking about Darmok, they might know the vocabulary, but they don't understand the grammar or vice versa.
Challenges of Universal Translator in Cultural Contexts
00:02:49
Speaker
So it's just... Or they might know the vocabulary and grammar, but they might not know the metaphors and that's right idioms and the And they certainly don't know the hierarchy. They just know it's hierarchical, but there are languages other than English, where the way you talk to somebody is very specific based on where they are in the hierarchy. Like use completely different words, depending on if they're older than you, younger than you, ah more senior than you, less senior than you in a job in in your family, like all these nuances. And that kind of always got me for Star Trek in general, because I was like,
00:03:23
Speaker
Yeah, you just, you just don't, there's so much cultural information you just don't have, even if the words are like understandable, if you know the words, you still don't really know anything. Um, but they just kind of brushed that off in Star Trek, which I appreciate because this is not a linguistic show.
00:03:39
Speaker
Like, that's not what this show's about. We're just going to pretend it all it's all fine. um Yeah. And so I think they touch on it a little bit just because of Burnham's background. So they they mix in, you know, let's pull on her strengths to be like, oh, this is how she figured it out, which is a nice, nice touch. Yeah, it's a nice little buff. It's a nice little worker, you know, way to shine them through the issue. ah Ultimately, though, this episode is what if we did Star Wars?
00:04:05
Speaker
when they sneak onto the Death Star. yeah like That's what this is, except instead of um having the ship tractor beamed in, they are they are flying a ship a shuttle in undetected for this green dreadnought, which just strains credulity, as much as a lot of other things that's going on.
00:04:27
Speaker
in this, ah you know, because the president of the Federation is afraid of the green ships in their fleets, but they have these massive blind spots where you can fly ships right into them. So, I wouldn't be that afraid. Plus, you can just negotiate with them really easily. You can just be like, hey, guys, ah we're going to tell on you to another Primark if you don't do what we want. And then they'll be like, OK, that's
Serialization vs. Episodic Storytelling in Star Trek
00:04:49
Speaker
fine.
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, because the Federation is negotiating in bad faith in this episode, and I don't know how I feel about that even even now. um But we'll talk about that in a second actually, because ah you know serialized shows sort of have, I like to talk about concepts and themes.
00:05:06
Speaker
And it's kind of rare when we get to talk about the new shows, or Discovery especially, in relation to television historically, because it's serialized that's different for Star Trek. Serialization in terms of TV kind of goes I don't know i think people just take it as like that's the standard now which is very bizarre that's not the case um it's actually more like 911 and NCIS and CSI where it's like it's episodic but
00:05:42
Speaker
In this case, there's kind of two ways these serialized shows can go, and that is their penultimate episode usually can go either the way of setting up the finale, and that's where the big dramatic action happens, or they can resolve the overarching plot of the season in the big blowout happens here, and then the finale itself is like an emotional fallout from that.
00:06:09
Speaker
Um, and there is, there's pluses and minuses to either strategy.
Impact of Episode Quality on Season Perception
00:06:15
Speaker
One of those being, if you put all your eggs in one basket, like let's have an awesome finale. What if it sucks?
00:06:24
Speaker
ah And so now you you're leaving on a down note. And if your show is about your characters, that's every TV show's intention is, let's focus on the characters. Even these feature screen, even the people who transitioned from movies to TV, they ah they find out through trial and error, like, oh, instead of my high concept movie I didn't get to make, but I did get to turn into a TV show. I needed to, in the last couple of episodes, I realized, oh, I need to make this story about these characters.
00:06:53
Speaker
So you always have them. So if your spectacle fizzles, or it's not what people kind kind of wanted to see, or it didn't look as cool as you imagined, you still have an episode to play with like, well, what did all that mean for our characters? And what is that set up for them going into the next season?
00:07:11
Speaker
Or you can just do what Discovery has decided to do. And this is not making a judgment, which is like, this is a bridge episode. and So they went to the library and then they kind of just ran in place for this episode to get us to the finale. So that was the choice they made. And I think as a result of that, maybe did a disservice to some really interesting ideas that they set up both earlier in the season.
00:07:36
Speaker
and in this action And in the ah last episode that we talked about, Labyrinths, I don't know. It's not a review necessarily, but like we do get some resolution to what Burnham dealt with in the mind space. um and And I don't know how how I feel about it.
00:07:54
Speaker
We'll talk about what they what they chose to do. um ah One of the choices that they made also, though, and this was thinking there's nothing wrong, it was a positive was that they wanted to put Adira on on a mission. They wanted to give them something to do other than just stand there and stammer because they're nervous.
00:08:14
Speaker
yeah So I like that. I like how how the dad was all like, no, i I vote against this. Like, you can't vote against this. This is not a democracy. and He's like, Oh, well, I mean, well, okay. And I love how he's like, I can go I could do it. I could probably figure it out some. there No, no, boo. You're staying here.
00:08:35
Speaker
Did you imagine? i I would never rely. I mean, they they do in every episode rely on Stamets to figure something out in five minutes, but i like I couldn't imagine. that I mean, he's a genius. Yes. But let's leave him on the ship. Let's leave him with the spore drive. Let's get keep him in his zone of genius. Yeah. Give him a lab and let him test this hypothesis a few times. Yeah. Don't take him on an away mission. know ah But when they met Adira, they were literally part of the Earth Defense Force.
00:09:02
Speaker
This person has security background, you know, this is not necessarily an intimidating situation. Yeah, out of the blue. Blue DiBario, that's funny. um so They told trekmovie dot.com in an interview after the episode came out, asked by Anthony Pascal, when he got the script and saw Adira was going on a very dangerous mission towards the end of the season, was there any worry they might kill off your character? Do you ever worry about that kind of thing? And I'm snippeting this one because of what we've been talking about with this particular character, Cherise, and wondering what's written and what's performance. And I thought their answer was illuminating.
00:09:40
Speaker
They said, I am an anxious person. So all the time was were they worried about? So they are acting just like themselves. yeah From the second I started working on Discovery to the moment I finished, there was a I'm going to get fired tomorrow mentality. But actually, had I know. and And later in the interview, they talked about like imposter syndrome, basically. And I think they folded that into the character. They met them and they're very effectively. This person is a walking nerve. Let's just use that, I guess. ah But actually, not for this episode was Blue Del Barrio really anxious about being killed.
00:10:18
Speaker
And they said, I think because there was just a lot of excitement and we were very buzzy about the finale, I was just really excited to have a part in such a big mission towards the end of the season, which wasn't something I was expecting. I was excited for the responsibility and to be like a little action hero for a minute.
00:10:34
Speaker
all yeah even they i mean Even if their character was killed off in this episode, they still had a really long run on the show. like that yeah that would have been That would have been a travesty. People would have rallied behind that character. People would have been like, no, not a deer. It would have been really big, especially since no one ever dies on the show. So that would have been a really... like That would have made the character even more iconic is what I'm saying. But thankfully they didn't go that route. They just said, how about you doing away mission for a change? um And even the way that came about, I thought was very Adira. Ensign, are you volunteering? um Yes. I think so.
00:11:15
Speaker
I like your point about no one dies on the show. like No one even gets wounded and it's not looking good for them. And then they could sort pull out of it. Except for Locke. And that's why that shocked me. Yeah. I guess i'm I'm kind of exaggerating because that's not true. People do get shot up a little bit. But just the idea of getting shot in that armor you know and still being really bad, but saving Reese or something at the end. And then you're like, oh, a noble sacrifice. No, no, no. They're fine.
00:11:43
Speaker
like even so No sacrifice needed. We're good. i's We're good. I'm right. Walk it off. Walk it off. But coming across that interview, because I had not read it at the time, I thought that was nice because ah it is something we've been talking about the whole season. Like what's going on here and why do they only and they were still doing it in this episode. Good for you.
00:12:06
Speaker
Oh, look at you. You're doing great. They were doing still doing a lot of that. So very strange. um We could all use a little more of that in our lives. I guess so you Brian, you're doing great. Keep going, buddy. You are just killing it with this podcasting game. Good job.
00:12:22
Speaker
Cherise, I admire and respect the entire project of the sci-fi savage. And I love your enthusiasm. You're doing an amazing job of putting out positive fandom. The positivity is, oh, Variety should write an article about you. what They should. and Thank you. Variety, I hope you're listening. That's right. Take my calls for once.
Video Game Elements in Storytelling
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh, got to text them. That's the problem. You can't just call. but No one, no one answers the phone anymore. One other thing I wanted to mention about this episode conceptually in its execution, and this is not casting aspersions, pointing out a thing that I set up at the very first discovery we did for season five. And that is this was an extraordinarily what if Star Trek but a video game.
00:13:13
Speaker
ah episode of TV, the cutscenes, the conversation trees. Oh, you chose the but hitting on them ah tree. ah Just, I thought it was ah pretty obvious that if not the, if the writing staff was not also on the side, ah video game writers, that they have played a lot of video games.
00:13:37
Speaker
All right, so a couple of production perspective thoughts and notes. Let's just start with the Lagrange point, which is a real thing. I'm sure everyone listening knows that Lagrange point is ah in celestial mechanics.
00:13:53
Speaker
They are points of equilibrium for small mass objects under the gravitational influence of two massive orbiting bodies. Normally, the two massive bodies exert an unbalanced gravitational force at a point, altering the orbit of whatever is at that point. At the Lagrange point, at the Lagrange points, however, the gravitational forces of the two large bodies and the centrifugal force balance each other. This can make them excellent points for locations for satellites as orbit corrections and fuel requirements are less. And so they can maintain a desired orbit. So the way it gets described, you can watch this NASA video that's really short and the scientist just basically says like, all right, you've got the sun, but then you've also got like the planet orbiting it and there's exerting gravitational forces there. And then also the orbit itself produces a gravity. And there's like a point in between
00:14:50
Speaker
all three of those where the forces balance out. And that's why when you talk about course corrections, when you watch Star Trek, when the ship appears to be standing still, like not in orbit of a planet, but like adjacent to a star or something. And you'll sometimes hear one of the characters say all thrusters are at station keeping. That's just like holding a point that's um maintaining a parallel perspective to something. So that's what saying Lagrange point, it's like the forces are equal so that you're minimizing the need to stay in place basically in relationship to it. But it's real. And the only issue is in the worst trek tropes with all that. So I'll save for that.
00:15:34
Speaker
A couple of notes from Trekmovie.com's review of the episode, because again, we're still, the history of Star Trek Discovery will come out later, once NDA's laps, probably once Secret Hideout is no longer the steward of the franchise, and people are talking more freely about how these shows were made and what went into certain things. ah But basically, this is Jonathan Frakes' 31st Star Trek Directing Credit.
00:15:57
Speaker
and eighth episode ah start of Discovery. 31 episodes of Star Trek. And i he's directed at least one in ah Strange New World season three. So we can definitely say 32. That's wild.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's super impressive. And he doesn't only direct Star Trek because I was watching one of my favorite shows, um Leverage, and there was like a hospital scene and there was some random guy in the waiting room. And I was like, that guy kind of looks like Jonathan Frakes, but like older with glasses. So I googled it and it totally was him. And he directed that episode. And I was like, get out of freaking town. So he has so many more creds on his sheet other than just Trek, which is super impressive.
00:16:38
Speaker
Do you think he sounds like Riker when he says action? I've never seen like an action. He probably does. And it's probably glorious. All right.
Short Episode Length in a 10-Episode Season
00:16:51
Speaker
And then the last note I did want to mention was this is the shortest episode of the season, which kind of goes back to my first thought of what what are your intentions with these 10 episode seasons. And I'm gonna i'm going to say that this shortness, the brevity of it, ah is kind of like they really did run out of story and in in the 10 episodes when it's gone down kind of every season. ah And so that's a bit of a bummer to to think about. And when you think about the history of these secret hideout shows, there have been a lot of situations
00:17:25
Speaker
more than one, I'll say. I think in Discovery season one and Picard season one. So those are two examples. So that's, is that a lot? I don't know. I kind of think it is because these are $15 million dollars episodes. You know, it's like, I think the planning should be a little tighter. But anyway, that in Discovery's first season, the first three episodes feel weird because I think they could, episode two is almost like an orphan where I had to kind of like up, we didn't get everything we wanted to say into the first hour, but we didn't have enough story to tell for the second hour. So it's kind of this in between to episode three and the same exact thing happened with Star Trek Picard season one. They actually had to split an episode into two because they didn't know what they wanted to do with all these rewrites and the production was a mess. So this is like,
00:18:15
Speaker
it happens at the end of the season is what it felt like watching a lot of this episode of like that's it that's what the story is we've got three scenes of them sitting in a room figuring out what to do a couple of emotional beats and then Star Wars hijinks and that's Yeah, you know, as you're talking, I'm remembering this, the Star Trek TNG episode, um, ah birthright part one, which my co-host calls daddy issues part one. Right. And in that episode, that's the one where like data starts dreaming. Yes. And that's the whole episode. That is the whole episode. I'm going like, what's going on? I think I'm having a dream. How am I having dreams? I'm having dreams. There's a bird. There's a bird. Like that's the whole episode. And then the second episode is like Wharf going to Kiddermer and finding, which which is like a really good, I like, I like that episode because I'm getting all this background with
00:19:00
Speaker
the Klingons and the Romulans and what happened to his father. And there's like so much juiciness in that one. And so we we were kind of like, what was the point of part one? The only thing that was, I mean, don't get me wrong. I love data. So yay data. But it was like, the only thing we needed this for was to be like, Worf got a tip, which is sending him to Kidamir and the real episodes next week, you know what I mean? And it was like, well, we could have just did that at the beginning of the next episode. We didn't need, we, we certainly did not need an entire episode for that set up for some random guy in some random bar on deep space nine to be like, Hey,
00:19:33
Speaker
I got a tip about your dad week. That took like three seconds. We could have done that at any time. And so I'm not going to, I'm saying all that to say it's probably not like a, like a brand new thing. Sometimes it just happens, but you're right. It is kind of a bummer because, um, in the heat of the moment and the excitement, watching a show from week to week, you feel it.
00:19:51
Speaker
more than in streaming. In streaming, you're like, ah, okay, that episode wasn't great, but I'll just watch the next one. But this show was dropped live every week because they're trying to get us back in the habit of watching normal TV on a streaming service, which is whatever. And it's like so frustrating because it's the end, you're excited what's going to happen to these characters. And then you get a bridge episode or you get a, you know, birthright's part one episode and you're like,
00:20:15
Speaker
I was like, you know, have you seen the movie A Christmas Carol? I mean, a Christmas story? Yeah. Where the guy's like, you know, you're not going to get a BB gun because it's going to shoot your eye out. There's a scene where he's like trying to decode this thing. And then when he decodes it, it's just an ad for Ovaltine. And he's like, that's it? A crummy commercial?
00:20:33
Speaker
yeah that's kind of how it feels when you're watching in real time and you are waiting and it's on your calendar and it's Thursday at six or whatever it is and you're like that's it a crummy commercial you know what I mean you're like come on like it feel it feels more I don't know, it feels more sad, especially in the pen ultimate, because you're like, this is when my excitement level is the absolute highest, because this is going to set up whatever is going to happen in the end. I do think the last scene was perfect. Like jumping in or I guess a couple before the last thing when they jumped in, I was like, oh, OK, what then I was like, what's going to happen? That's all they had on the board for what this episode is. Book and Burnham makeup, Burnham jumps into the hole, into the portal. That was all was on the cards. It was Birthright's part one, where you're like, we could have done that at the beginning. Oh, it's a good ending. And I'm sure I have to go and look at that again, but I did not enjoy that two-parter, even though it does have a very beautiful Klingon woman who we see naked in part two. I remember that. It does, it does have that. She's very pretty.
Potential for TNG and DS9 Crossovers
00:21:42
Speaker
But they did use, they must have had the idea of like data, what if data started dreaming? Okay, how would data, and then they found this crossover moment and it was supposed to be Dax who's interacting with them. So it's not Dr. Bashir. It actually works out great. Dr. Bashir is great, but
00:22:00
Speaker
um you know data gets shocked and then it activates this dream program he doesn't have and then it was supposed to be a crossover to ds9 and it was like the most disappointing crossover in the history of crossovers it was not great i was like you guys could have done anything why didn't they go to ds9 and then the then the station got attacked and then they had to band together or something exciting where you're like because here are the characters now we know who the deep space nine characters are don't we want to watch this show i didn't feel didn't have the Marvel mindset working yet. And I think Rick Berman was very much like, it's like basically costs and, and focus. So it's like, well, we don't want to emphasize Deep Space Nine too much on our TNG. You know, it's like that kind of stuff. So he didn't understand what a crossover is?
00:22:44
Speaker
Because like CSI, there are like eight different CSIs and every time they make a new one, they do a crossover and it's always the best like episode because they do a part one on the first show. Yes. But to see the second part, you got to go to the new show. You know where they got that from? No. They got that from Law and Order and Homicide Life on the Streets. So like there would be a crime that would start in Law and Order maybe. Yeah.
00:23:08
Speaker
And then they, then you would have to go to, but it would either, yeah, I would start and then they'd have to go to Baltimore. So then you have to fin like finish the episode in there. I mean, that's genius. Talk about open loops. And now you got a fan of both shows and that's like such a great introduction to all the characters. But that Deep Space Nine intro was like, we saw one character.
00:23:27
Speaker
I know. And the thing is, well, we know why we wouldn't see Cisco. We don't want the episode where he and Picard patch things up. That would have stunk. No one I would not have enjoyed like to this, I would have held a grudge to this day. ah I'm mad at the thought of it. Yeah, I guess we saw it too. Because we I think we saw it. Did we see Quark? No, no, that was in Voyager. And we always saw one character.
00:23:50
Speaker
We do see Thomas Riker then go to Deep Space Nine, and that's great. And I like that Cisco likes him. He's like, oh, Riker's cool. Because he thinks he's Will Riker. He's like, I'll talk to you. Come on up to the office. Let's say yeah. honey ah but that ah But the birthright episode, ah it's like they had the idea of data dreaming. They shoot they figured out, OK, we've got to do this deep-state sign crossover. What can we do with these things? We have no budget. And Rick Berman has given us all these weird rules. That's a guess, because he he's big on giving weird rules, that they were just like, what if we use this half an idea for data dreaming to set up part two? Because Worf's like, I'm not going to believe your uridian. And I've made peace with the where my dad's at. Because it it's Worf saying, like,
00:24:36
Speaker
you have been given a quest. And if it it's from your father, there's nothing more important, right? Isn't that what it was? And so he's like, yeah so it inspires him to go on the mission. And so that's how they're able to justify this being a two parter. I know your father.
00:24:50
Speaker
It's the Simba moment. I know your father. It's like, how do you know my father? I've seen him recently. No way. Now I have to see if this is true. And I'm here for all that. That could have just been in the next episode.
Serialized Storytelling and Character Development
00:25:04
Speaker
I'm just saying. But they didn't have that conceit in mind of like, it doesn't have to be a two parter. It could just be a thing that carries over. just be a standalone thing. They just didn't know. They couldn't do that. that was That would have blown their minds. It's like when they say, peasant children can't withstand the flavor of a Dorito, if you just say, you know what I mean? Is that a saying? There's like an online meme of a peasant child would die if they tasted Mountain Dew or something. like ah Our lives today are so intense that the people in the past couldn't handle it. You had told Rick Berman of, like
00:25:40
Speaker
what if What if some things from the previous episode carried over, but it wasn't the second part? yeah Yeah, we don't need previously. That's right. here And now the conclusion. I guess I'm saying all that because ah the one thing that this episode but for me emotionally because I think as I'm getting older I understand the lessons that so many screenwriting professors and actors and filmmakers over the years like it's about our characters for TV but what that ultimately boils down to is like what is the emotion and so labyrinths the thing that you and I or at least I especially was like glomming on to was like Burnham and books
00:26:25
Speaker
and like Burnham realizing something about herself right and that relationship. So that was just waiting for them to play on that here. And well, let's get into the the grades and see if any of that pops up here in great scenes. Okay, so I have one great scene.
00:26:44
Speaker
And it was the heart to heart between Saru and Tarina, where they both admit, it's a great scene slash maybe worst Trek trope. um But it's where they- That's great. Yeah, do that. That's great. It's where they both admit that the mission and duty is always more important than like love or personal connections or just anything else and important to you as an and individual. And that was just very Starfleet. So why I said a great scene is because we get to know more about these two characters who I love.
00:27:13
Speaker
Um, but also like that is very Starfleet, that it's like the mission, the mission, who cares about you and your personal things. It's all about the mission. And I loved that they both were on the same page about that, that they were both like, you know, she's like, yeah, I'm a planetary leader. And he's like, yeah, I'm some random ambassador. The mission comes first. And they're like, that's right. Our love is second deal deal.
00:27:32
Speaker
And I just love that. I love that they both get each other and they both get it. And so neither one of them is going to be like, how could you put the mission before me? They're just like, yeah, dude, it's the mission. It's got to come first. And I just I love that. Yeah. So that was my one great scene.
00:27:45
Speaker
I had no great scenes. I will say that this episode more than any other, and folks, I did actually consider this for Discovery because of of its serialization of like some scenes are just necessarily moving the ball or just very perfunctory that they're there because Every show, there's different types of doing serialization well. But anyway, I almost had the animated format that we do where it's great moments instead of great scenes because my standard for what makes a great scene is maybe too high. I don't know. But I still think I like that as a moment between them because I like almost every scene they have together. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that he's like.
00:28:25
Speaker
you know, Vulcans aren't the only species that can be logical. Right. And she's like, Oh, yeah, I forgot. I'm spending all this time with Burnham and the Breen. Yeah, exactly. She's like, Well, you know, I usually am the only logical person. Have you met the president of the Federation? This is literally my role in all of this. But okay, it's reminding me. She's a climber. Okay, I'm a realist. She's um, but ah i I like the moment between book in the guard where he does, he's like, oh, and she's like, you're on, and where she goes, you're on distraction duty. And he's like, oh, I know exactly what I'm going to do. That was, that was actually really funny. And he's just like, so, uh, are you going, uh, go into the ball?
Use of Humor as a Tactical Distraction
00:29:09
Speaker
It just was, it just was funny. It was again with like the kind of the cultural relevance. You're like, you have no idea how this person is going to react to what book is saying. And then when he's like, yes, I shall prepare the oil bath for you or something like that. And he's like,
00:29:21
Speaker
It's getting weird. Oh, please hurry. I just was like, this is really this was funny. And yeah, I like that part. That was a cute little moment. Well, to me, this episode almost made me want to um come up with like we should have bad scenes. But I like that our show is trying to find the good in things to decide, you know, if you were playing a real game of Fuck Mary Kill, there is a way a version where you get to mean right where you're like, oh, that person, whatever. It's like, no, no, no. Just if If you want to kill that person, or you know what I mean? Like, just say, kill. Focus on the positive. So that's why we tend to avoid the negative in the grades. If you don't kill them, just kill them. But focus on the positive while you kill them. But I feel like that the scene, because as I was suggesting, this episode kind of was set up to do some really interesting things emotionally. And so I kind of feel like,
00:30:17
Speaker
They have bad scenes in this one. There are too many scenes of them sitting around. Remember the scene I talked about last week? We're going to cut away to three minutes. No, for two minutes of three people standing around a thing. Yeah, just.
00:30:28
Speaker
ah painfully sings techno babble. Well, we have a lot of that in this episode. I thought you were gonna say that three people like in the room, the ambassadors sitting around saying that green are dangerous, green are dangerous, the green are coming, the green are coming. Yeah, we need to stop the brain. We can't possibly stop the brain. We're still talking about this. This is bad. That is bad. And then the the apology scene between Burnham and book. I mean, it's like The way the scene was written was like, oh, shit. Somebody make sure to put that. This is where that scene happens. Yes. just Because there was no space to put it really in the next episode. Put some boilerplate.
00:31:08
Speaker
And we'll get back to it. And then they can get back to it and make it better. Well, yeah, they needed it in this episode because at the end, but Burnham steps into the portal. So now there's no time to have this conversation. Like it's fine that they needed to have that scene from Labyrinth that that Labyrinth sets up. They needed it in this episode. yeah I just think that the the scene we got was like the The placement was odd, and also you they rushed through it. And they were like, duh, Sinequa and David will give it the polish that it needs. Or if we have time, we'll go back and fix it. And they didn't. So I was like, that's it? That's all we get? And then I think the Tilly Rayner scene, come on. it's like So there's like bad scenes in the episode where I'm like, don't do this.
00:31:56
Speaker
where she's not like she has such an unprofessional posture on the bridge she's like kind of leaning like she's just talking to her co-worker like there there there's no customers the coffee shop's slow she's just kind of leaning there she's like hey buddy could you stop pacing it's making me anxious could you sit in the chair and it's like tilly sure it's unprofessional but it's also It's also discovery. I mean, it's the same thing with their. So now we're getting to into worse trek tropes, but it's the same with the with the random heart to heart. It's like, yeah, that made no sense there, but it's also discovery. So it wasn't like as shocking as it would have been in any other show. So should we put that in the best trek tropes? No. Like, OK. No, it's just stay in worse trek tropes. Like it's it still makes no sense to do it, but it is literally an orbit of two black holes.
00:32:44
Speaker
And Tillie's like, hey, buddy, you nervous? You should sit in the captain's chair. And it's like, oh, and that's another moment emotionally. I didn't register that it was going to be painful for him to sit in the captain's chair, Rainer, because he lost it. Yeah. Because that got dropped on us in this episode. And if that had been something through the season that they were it would have been more powerful when he sat in the chair that's because he would have been like, wow, he finally did it. Right. and And you could have played that either way, that he's like, well, if I ever sit the cabin chair again, I'm not giving it up.
Character Growth Arcs and Sci-Fi Tropes
00:33:22
Speaker
that That would have been created a weird jeopardy. Like, wait, is this guy going to betray them? Or could it just been another thing? Or he could do the Catholic version where he's just so racked with guilt, you know, where he's like, it's like too painful. I don't want to let people down. I feel like if I
00:33:36
Speaker
if I sit in that chair, it'll be for me and not for them. And I'm here for the crew to serve the crew. Like you could have played it some other way, but instead we just get, we haven't seen the captain's chair in a while. Yeah. I felt like it was more like, I don't think Burnham was coming back. So I'm going to sit in the chair. That's kind of how I thought it would be.
00:33:51
Speaker
because they're like she's in there and then it like explodes and then he sat down so i was like oh like that could have been interesting too to be like well i'm the captain now you know like i guess you know kind of that that like reluctant hero i'm i'm gonna be the captain of this ship because we don't know where burnham is we don't know if she's still alive we don't know she's coming back so but the the idea that he there was some angst or tension with him even sitting in the chair is what feels dropped into this episode, which is strange. Also, another storyline that they have completely dropped, and I think I meant to say this when you were saying something else, another point, is that all the certain things are being amplified by the fact that we knew sitting down to watch them that this was the last season. They did not have that information when they were making the show.
00:34:37
Speaker
Um, so there is that weirdness. I'm sure if they knew that this was the penultimate episode of the series, they wouldn't have wasted time. Yeah. They would've, they would've talked some way more emotion for sure. Uh, so best trek tropes. I have two. Um, the first one is faking their death, right? Cause in the end of the last episode, they, you know, they pulled a stargazer and made it seem like their ship got exploded, but it didn't. Good call. Nice pull.
00:35:07
Speaker
And that doesn't always like that doesn't often happen in track where someone fakes their death. But I put it's always an interesting idea, because it is because when they come back, you're like, wait, what? Like, so I put that as a best trope, because that's interesting. I think that's great. And just one thing that I just had canon and I don't actually like using that phrase. So why did I just do that? But I think it's just because it's sitting there and I would like it to happen more often is that they're in the 32nd century but they're from the 23rd century and just the idea that sometimes these ancient mariner tricks
00:35:41
Speaker
could work in the future, because they have no context for what they're doing, that that like everything old is new again, kind of a way that that would have been, that's just a a crafty way. like No one in the 32nd century would think to do that anymore. And they they did. Also, Discovery has the ability, because you know some of its bones could be still old, that it could do certain things other ships can do. Anyway, what's your other best trek trip?
00:36:05
Speaker
The second one, which is not as much of a trek trope as it is just kind of like generic sci fi, is when they knock out the guards and use their bodies to open the door, um which it's is a Star Wars thing. But it for me, it's Spaceballs. Like that was I i watched Spaceballs long before I watched Star Wars. So for me, it was just like, but this is a thing. This isn't just a this isn't just like a trek or space thing. There's in plenty of sci fi and even just like high shows or whatever.
00:36:33
Speaker
They knock out somebody to get their eye scan or their finger scan or whatever. um So this is just like a a thing that happens often in in different kinds of sci-fi, especially in like the crime shows I like to watch and stuff. And I like it. and like I thought it was stupid here. But again, it reminded me of Spaceballs. And Spaceballs is hilarious. So I was kind of like, OK. um But I just like the the trope in general, because because there's always like, you need this person's bio bio something to get in. They're not going to cooperate.
00:37:03
Speaker
So how are you going to get around this? They always end up just knocking them out. But I'm always wondering if someone's going to see them or like catch them or shoot them in the back while they're running through the door, which has never happened yet. But because this is a trope, it could happen someday. So that's what I have. Did you have any ah best trick tropes? I guess I'm going to I didn't really. But as we were talking, I'm like, I'm going to put Saru's you know, the Vulcans aren't the only ones with logic because I don't think we've fully enshrined it as like a label. So like, you could, all you could for example, you could portableize Smacking Down Wharf.
00:37:42
Speaker
You could make that to like, anytime there's a Klingon that's brought in as like a tough guy and gets smacked down for it by another alien. You could apply that trope that they did in TNG so many times, but like McCoy dissing Vulcans as like a portable label. Like Saru is doing a version of that here where it's like, you know, I must, I'm a person of sound mind judgment.
00:38:07
Speaker
It doesn't take a Vulcan to figure certain things out. you know like It's almost that. so And because I do like all their scenes together as like I get what they're going for, sometimes it's a little too trickily, especially once they realize like these two are great together.
00:38:23
Speaker
And when it it's very sweet when they look at each other. So let's just make sure everything touches on that. it' It's just good that Saru is able to say kind of bitchy things to her in a nice way. nice way, because according to my research, that's what marriage is. So yeah. ah course Thank you, David.
00:38:47
Speaker
oh I'm going to put it as ah as a best trek trope. the but the disposable shuttles that they that they're willing to burn a shuttle. like that's just I feel like it's kind of rare for Discovery to do that, but that was something they did in in the original series, TNG, g especially Team Space Nine. like They were just running through shuttles. right so Those things crashed for no reason. And so here it's like,
00:39:16
Speaker
I think losing a shuttle. You do crash a lot now that you mention it. but I'm putting it as a best because here it's like, yeah, okay, a shuttle on a one, like it actually makes the covert mission. Make more sense because they're not going to identify the shuttle sticking to the hull. Yeah. Like 10 minutes later, like, hey, we've got people on our ship. We have to burn up some expendable, like some expendable part of this mission is actually expended. Like that makes sense. Like, okay, great. Good for them.
00:39:46
Speaker
All right, where's Strictrobes? I have so many. Um, the first one, so I, I did not care for this episode and I kept trying to be like, why don't I like it? It's got, it feels like a typical episode we've seen this season. So why am I so like against it? And it's because it's a heist movie. Like whenever it turns into a heist movie, I'm just like, I'm out. They did the same thing. That's the thing. I love heist. I love ocean. Ocean's 11. So like when Star Trek does, why are they doing a heist? I don't like it when a non heist
00:40:19
Speaker
crew or cast suddenly pulls off a heist. That to me feels so um
Influence of Soap Opera Writing Styles
00:40:25
Speaker
ridiculous. So like, love Oceans 11 or like Mission Impossible or something like that. But when it's, because they did the same thing and in Star Trek, ah Picard season two, where it turned into a heist and I hated that episode too. And it just was like, because then the thing, I think the reason why I hate it while we'll love something like leverage where these people, this is their thing. They're always stealing stuff all the time. They have these skill sets.
00:40:47
Speaker
when they suddenly drop it into Trek, they don't have these skill sets. All of a sudden they have super sleuthing skills and they like, since when do they have any of these skills? Where did they get all these skills from? And I think the, the, um, kind of the breakdown, the classic breakdown of a heist movie where they're like, all right, here's the plan. The vault's under 10 layers of concrete and they do that, that whole like monologue.
00:41:11
Speaker
I just want to stab somebody with a fork. like i don't OK, we get it. It's really hard. It's super hard to get in. But the reason why it bothers me is because no matter how hard it is to get in, I already know that you guys will get in with no difficulty. So it's like, why are you even building this up to make it so impossible when you're going to get in with no difficulty, no one's going to stop you, you're going to have no obstacles or impediments, and you will successfully achieve the goal? like there's not really Now, it just feels fake. And so I think all of those things bother me personally. So that's not so much like, oh, Discovery, you suck. It's just, I hate it when they do the heist. Like, I just hate that. Because I'm like, you guys are, this is not your thing. If it if it's flying a spaceship, that's your thing. You know how to do that. You have those skills. But when it's like, all right, let's make a plan. You and you, you'll be team alpha. It's just kind of like, okay. So that was one. um Another one was that it was too coincidental. The fact that Tahaul was the Primark who's now coming after
00:42:10
Speaker
you know, malls shipped to take over Primark Dune's people. I was like, didn't they say there was like five Primark's or nine Primark's or something like that? Why are we picking the one Primark we've heard of before and the one Primark we use to threaten Dune and the one Primark that Rainer knows intimately when there's like a ton of other Primark's? And to me, that just felt lazy. I get that they're trying to make a connection and do some world building, but why is to haul a thing? Why is to haul now a thing? So that was...
00:42:39
Speaker
because they needed more and more and more. They needed to have set up, make sure there's a big, a giant space battle in the finale. And like, it's the brain versus the Federation and it's over this other stuff. And it's like, I guess, and and they didn't know it was the series finale. So it's good that they did that because you want the biggest spectacle in a series finale, but it is like a disease of more. It's like, what's the most,
00:43:05
Speaker
How can we plus this to the max that fits within our budget? A fleet is coming. But don't show it. We can create. That's a hundred million dollar value right there. Which they could have done. I think it just was that it was to haul. I just felt like the one person, which maybe is is the whole point. So that way we't we're not like, who's this new Primark?
00:43:27
Speaker
But I just want the brain to still be a little mysterious and still be a little bit kind of we just don't know that much about them. But apparently we know like a ton about them, even though and how do we know this? I don't know. um The third thing I wrote was I'm now calling this the Barclay effect.
00:43:42
Speaker
And that's when Tilly, Adira, and Stamens are all stuttering as they give genius ideas throughout this episode to save the day, especially in the first like five minute sequence when they're, but you know, rebuilding the ship and they're, we got to jump now, now, now. And they're doing all that. All three of them are doing their versions of, um, well, um, well, let's see. Well, okay. There's a black hole and gee, we could get sucked in, but I guess no, maybe we won't get sucked in. And you're just like, uh, blah. You know, come on, dude. um So I'm calling that the Barclay effect because that's exactly how Barclay always talked. And that's a worst trek trope. It is their personality. I get it. It just irritates me a little bit. And then the last one we already mentioned was the heart to heart at the worst possible time. um And that was when Book and Burnham were apologizing to each other in costume, incognito, walking through the enemy ship in the hallway. She did acknowledge it, right? She was like, I know it's not the best time, but we got to talk about this now. So at least
00:44:37
Speaker
She said it's not the best time and they didn't just break it while they were like walking down the hall. But I just thought like, yeah, these hard to hearts are so weird. They are very discovery but very weird. Many moons ago, I was a a page for CBS. And one of our assignments was answering the phone in the booth at on the soap operas. So like people would call for crew members and we'd either take a message or get them on the phone. It was a pretty simple job. um But you got to watch how a soap opera was made every day and not being interested in writing. I was paying attention to the writing, although the production of it and the acting involved in it was interesting in its own its own right. I have a lot of appreciation for the ones who are really good at
00:45:21
Speaker
doing 20 pages a day basically, it's pretty nuts. But the point is is that you you get ah you can see what they're doing in the writing and it's like they have to make sure that we're on this set for a week. This plot point is not important, but we have to check in with all these characters in every episode. So because we don't need them to really do anything,
00:45:42
Speaker
until Thursday, what are we having them say on Tuesday, you know, it's like, and that, and so it is soap opera writing, it makes sense. Discovery had a lot of soap opera writers in its early seasons. There, you know, it's just basically it is filler.
00:45:57
Speaker
If it feels like filler, it's because it is. And it's just, it's with the mindset of like, it's TV. People expect you to check in with these characters. What are we going to have them say? What could they be doing here? What is the one trait that we know about these things? Well, Tilly's a, both a know-it-all and a busy body. And she, she will give advice that she would never take and all this other stuff. She will give advice that she will never take. Like Adira, you're ready for more, but I don't know if I am. Yeah. Oh, my God, a student emailed me and I had to go on sabbatical. Help me out. Oh, poor Tilly. Teaching is hard, girl. I know. I know. So that's I think that's why it's there is more like we have to have them check in. And I think they think it gives it a not a sheen of reality. I don't think I think they are all like gives it an emotional beat. It gives it an emotional resonance. Yes.
00:46:54
Speaker
absent of any context, they might mathematically be correct. But with so many things, just whatever the stats say, sometimes there's like a human element. it you know It's like chat GPT might be able to like formulate this recipe for you. But if you look at the ingredients, it's like, why am I putting motor oil in this? but so Yeah.
00:47:16
Speaker
yeah it does vi yeah warning you know you're what it tells you may not be correct maybe may not be accurate. um Yeah, I think I would like that seem maybe better if she if they pull each other aside during the 10 minutes they had to get ready for this mission. When she was like leaving 10 and they could have but can I talk to you for a second that's what the episode.
00:47:35
Speaker
should have if they were going to do this story you actually this kind of demanded the five minute lead into the mission like deep space nine would do this a lot like we're gonna have a battle at the end of this and then like it at least one act but usually two would be spent like setting up the emotional terms of the fighting so that once the fighting started You cared about X, Y and Z on top of our characters. And that's exactly what this episode demanded. But what did we care about during the heists? It was just like.
00:48:08
Speaker
It's right there. Book and and Burnham, they've... Oh, I mean, just aside from that like aside from that, what did we care about with the... like that What was that were were the stakes, I guess? right It's like, yes, we got to get the device before they open it, but they opened it already. Scamit's storyline from the season was set up as... Remember when he looked at that Android, the Soong Android, and he was like,
00:48:29
Speaker
wow I wish I could make something that had a legacy even though he like literally built the sport drive but what and he is the sport drive which is the is like the only person who can access the mycelial network blah blah blah anyway so he's got one but he's it's not good enough and I think that's not like dynamic yeah something else that everyone knew about ah But they dropped that when they could have been building up here so that when it's Adira going on the mission and not him using the thing he built or this idea he had, that would have been something to play on, where he could have either recognized like, OK, I've got to pass the torch. That is part of what I'm saying. Like, whatever, Kasun inspired all these other people to do X-ray. But like, yeah, it is just a bunch of stuff gets dropped in there. Instead, Colbert does. He goes like, wow. Just remember it was like just yesterday that I was going into a dangerous mission. And then here we are today. Cole is so funny. He is diving out on that. And you're going into a dangerous mission. It's like, I don't know what happened to this character, okay? So the character, he had died, came back to life. That was super interesting. I'm glad they brought him back too, because that was like so messed up. But I like how they brought him back because it was so, it was like, okay, that's, I've never seen that before. And then he had trouble adjusting, which is appropriate. You should have trouble adjusting if you had a death experience. But now at some point between the coming back and being super mean and picking fights and not knowing where he lands, at some point he turned into Pollyanna. I don't know when that switch over happened, but now he just smiles.
00:50:01
Speaker
all the time, he's just got this smile plastered on his face and he's always like, hey buddy, you're doing great. Like to everybody. And I'm kind of like, what happened to all that emotional depth that he gained from that near-death experience? And even with having the trill and habitant where they were kind of playing on this like, oh my gosh, there's something more than just science. Could have also added depth.
00:50:19
Speaker
to his character, but instead he's sitting here going, it's like just yesterday that I was doing something dangerous. And now it's you kiddo in this great in everything great in sunshine, rainbows, just just peachy, you know, and it's like, OK, OK, like that's nice. I like positivity. That's great. But it's not it's not very it's nothing for me to latch on to personally. Like I can't relate to it. I can't relate to being Pollyanna, to being just like happiness and sunshine in the face of everything all the time. It's less interesting. Yeah. I would have liked, I would have liked more resistance. Like you can't go, you could get hurt. I don't know. But what is conflict drama conflict. Drama is not two people sitting and talking about their feelings. You can have people sit and talk about their feelings. There's nothing wrong with that. But like the, it's like the most,
00:51:13
Speaker
generic kind of conflict you could have where how are you feeling? I don't want to talk about it. That is technically trauma, that it like satisfies the base definition, but it is not interesting, ultimately, especially if like, what do you gain from the in interaction? How do the characters grow? How does how do their choices or even what they say? How does that push the story forward? Those are all other elements. Again, absent context, if you just pull pluck that scene out, that is technically a scene that you could do in an acting class. And that would be a dramatic reading. But if you plop it into a larger story, what is it serving? And
00:51:54
Speaker
And the show so so often has basically like disparate parts, and it rarely coheres. And it only really coheres because stylistically, like they're on the same VR set.
00:52:07
Speaker
for So they do a bunch of stuff within it. So it makes it feel like it's all happening together. But it's like that scene with Burnham and Book could have happened anywhere. Right. Like any of this could have happened anywhere. Right. Yeah. Any of this could have happened anywhere. They could have been talking to a deer on the comms. Are you OK? Are you on the ship now? You're doing great. Honey, is everything good? We're watching your progress. If you're in danger, just come on back. You can just come back anytime. Watch out, buddy. There's a brain behind that wall. I've got this, dads. Leave me alone.
00:52:40
Speaker
and ah you had many other worst No, no, that's it. That's it. No, i have what about you? Okay. Bad science and bad politics. We'll start with the bad politics first.
Critique of Political and Scientific Elements
00:52:51
Speaker
I had a big problem with the president.
00:52:55
Speaker
negotiating in good faith, his the prime and bad faith. Because the Primarch, she specifically says, like oh, and if the Primarch finds out that we're we've got this world's life-altering technology, she's gonna be real, real steamed about it. And it's like, that's... I thought the whole point of whenever we cut away to the negotiating thing is like, this is supposed to be their way of saying like, this is why Star Trek is different. Like they care and this is how we resolve conflict is talking about it. Well, if you are withholding information or you're acting and whatever, like, you should be acting as though they have this, everyone has the same information or
00:53:36
Speaker
Or the the braver story choice would have been the president saying we have to tell them about it. We cannot start a war over this. or saying we have to destroy a mall ship. We can't let this information get out. That's the other thing. you mean to make it we could make We could simply make it clear that these are bad actors. we Only the Breen can stop their theyre bad Breen. We need them to do it. We can't do it. It'll start a war. That's a great one point, too. But like what's the most dramatic way is the president's going to have to do something other than appeal to like an abstract version of the way things ought to be. She should have made a choice.
00:54:14
Speaker
that caused the dramatic conflict that perhaps Saroo had to enact but disagreed with, that Tarina was like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? like But instead, it's just like, we know what the viewers are seeing, and we we need to tell the viewers that there are worse bad guys coming.
00:54:34
Speaker
There are more of the same yeah level of bad guys. We have a fleet this time. I appreciate that it was involved there is some sort of duplicity. was like It's a stated thing in the scene. And I'm like, I don't know what you do with that information. I kind of think, again,
00:54:50
Speaker
32nd century, it's going to be very tricky to keep secrets like that. And I would imagine the Breen have spies were able to decode subspace transmissions. I mean, if they would deign to care about the Federation, they might spy on them. But maybe they wouldn't. We don't know that that's that. That's like part of the. We've also dropped the thread about the Red Directive. We could have had a scene with Kovac and the president, maybe. Like you could have yeah and then like could have just pushed it through. He could have been like, we're doing XYZ. We're doing it. yeah Do what I said. And that's it.
00:55:19
Speaker
ah So these are things where it's it's just less compelling, but all at its heart is sort of like a a negative of like, we need to hide something. And I just didn't appreciate that. And it's always bad drama when characters have to withhold information to create the tension. You know, Buffy in the later seasons would do this. It's like, why is Willow lying? Or why are they not telling each other how they feel? It's like, oh, because they need to create the drama.
00:55:45
Speaker
Like if people act dumb or lie or whatever, then that will create the thing. Anyway, not not a good look for Star Trek. And it wasn't like this egregious thing. It's like right at the end here, but it's just like a little tiny thing. They're like, oh, we need to put one more little more little tile of drama on top of the Jenga Tower. Hopefully it'll all hold together. And then the other one, the bad science. Lagrange points and bet and black holes. I did a little reading on this.
00:56:11
Speaker
And I'm sure they did too. But it does seem like between discovery and strange new worlds that the science advisor has a thankless task of people who like, oh, I visit, I fucking love science every day. ah you know But they have like, they don't engage with the concepts very much. So like, is it possible because black holes are big gravitational forces that they could have a Lagrange point?
00:56:37
Speaker
and And she probably went, because I think it's a woman who's a science advisor, she probably went, sure.
00:56:47
Speaker
Or she said, well, that actually doesn't end. They were like, thank you. Yeah, because Event Horizons on black holes, there's no fixed point in them, which is what you need to have a Lagrange point is a fixed point.
00:57:00
Speaker
And a black hole is a constantly like collapsing gravitational field that you can't fix a point on it. So the fact that they would even be in orbit of each other would seemingly be incredibly destructive. you know I'm sure that they just thought because we have this um asset from Strange New World's episode of Memento Mori, which is just, it might even be the interstellar black hole. It might actually be the same visual effect. and Like we bought it, let's just copy paste it here. We have two of them.
00:57:30
Speaker
That looks cool. It does look cool. It looks super cool. So bad science makes you scratch your head. I think most people wouldn't know that though. Most people probably wouldn't even know a Lagrange point is a thing. They just would be like, okay. Right. Most cosplayable character or moment? I put Saru. I love his blue dress robe thingy. I like that. Did you have the flowers that he brings to Tarina?
00:57:54
Speaker
I would not have the flowers, but I would have the pen. He has like a brooch. Oh yeah, that's right. it's like oh it's And that's like a flower or a tree or something. um And Tarina's wearing almost the same thing. but um So I put Saru or Tarina. I like that thing. I want that thing. Whatever that is, I want that.
00:58:14
Speaker
I'll go with that. That's a good one. ah Because we otherwise we just say the brain and their helmets again. That's boring. Now it's time for the line must have drawn here. Great lines. Can I just say I don't have necessarily great lines. I'm jumping you a little bit because you might actually have one. The scene that you talked about, though, where they're planning the heist.
00:58:33
Speaker
And it's a weird scene because they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk about all that they can't do and try to do and want to do. They always do that in the high scenes. They always go, but the Pope is there. And so they've got, you know, everything's guarded from top to bottom. And you're like, that scene is a scene. What then happens is there's like a little pause and then Michael Burnham, because she is the smartest person in the galaxy.
00:58:59
Speaker
Someone's gotta be. Throws together, which just whips up an entire plan and in two seconds after taking a breath. And ah there's to the point where it's like, I was trying to figure out, again, I don't want these grades themselves to be negative. I'm like, the Michael Burnham moment of what?
00:59:18
Speaker
And then you have the obligatory book moment of, that's insane. So that's my great line where she explains this entire thing that's not going to work, but will because it's TV. And he goes, this is insane. And she goes, maybe, but it could work.
00:59:39
Speaker
is stupid, but what if it wasn't? And I love that Sanico Martin Green had the whisper very high in this episode. like we've got to go She was definitely, she was definitely accurate car ad voicing these ads. She's got a great voice. Sometimes she whispers too much. I would not be able to stop listening. Like I would just, I would just stay there forever because her voice is amazing. Yeah, that, that was a, that was a typical heist moment, right? Is like, this plan will never work. Cut to plan working perfectly.
01:00:13
Speaker
It's a perfect discovery line because they always tell like, no one's thought of this before. It's amazing. when And when Adira's like, we can, we can transpo lock it. And it's like, yeah, those are called pattern enhancers. They've been doing it forever. This is not, but they're, they're like, what is this technology? She's like, we are. They're like, we use this technology in the EDF. And I'm like, they've been using it for a very long time.
01:00:40
Speaker
that just was so We could we could transport. We just created this new technology where we kind of transport ourselves. We move ourselves with energy. It's amazing. You're like, wow, let's do that. Yeah, I have two lines that I really like. The first was science later problem now. I like that because I feel like they could have used that so much more often in the show. Like how they brought that line up like in episode one, it could have been a callback that they come back to all the time whenever they get into these geek spirals where they're like science later problem now. And then they just go.
01:01:10
Speaker
We can't kill the bug. Just trust me. Okay, great. Let's move to the next scene. You know, like we could have just kept it pushing. Like we could have used this. Why did sorry why did we not get this until the penultimate episode is how long it took us to get this line and this idea. um And then the second one I have is I loved Raynor's reply to ah Tilly on the bridge when they were having their heart to heart, where he was like,
01:01:33
Speaker
if we were stuck in a foxhole together, I wouldn't kill you. Unless you give me more of that warm and fuzzy encouragement that I don't need." I was just like, I love the fact that this is his like positive pep talk response to somebody is like, you know why I picked you? Because if we were alone together, I wouldn't kill you. You're like, oh my gosh, that's your like that's your barrier to entry. Because most people, if you were alone together with them, you would murder them. yeah I don't know. I just had that just that was just funny to me. That felt like it's a real moment is like if we were together alone, I'd probably I wouldn't kill you. You're making me think about that scene some more though. And it it makes me think about a lot of these similar scenes that Tilly has. And the way that Tilly delivers or dispenses advice or butts into situations,
01:02:19
Speaker
It's like, there's a pattern to all of them. She goes in, she's like, I know I'm gonna be annoying here, but I really feel it's important that I be annoying here. Okay, I've delivered the annoyingness. You should not get mad at me for delivering the annoyingness. I just want you to know that I was right. Her arc is constantly. And when she gets put on the spot, she's like, I don't know. And they're like, Tilly, I'm counting on you. She's like, well, I have something annoying to say. And they're like, OK, say it. And then she she kind of says it. And they're like, that was kind of annoying. She's like, listen, you asked for something annoying. like that's the It's the arc of all of her. It's the tone of every exchange with her. it's like
01:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, i like I like that line. i just I just like the idea of it as far as um backstory for
Performance Praise and Character Development
01:03:10
Speaker
Rayner. It's like, wow, this is his this is his bar of how he forms like relationships or trust. It's like, would I murder you in your sleep? No? All right, you're with me. um I don't know if this is stepping on the grade later, but I really think that Callum Keith Runny's addition to the cast was a good call is one of the best late in the series run additions of the century, I don't know about in all of TV history, but it's pretty amazing yeah how he shifts the tone of the show, but fits within it at the same time, and is so consistent in his performance, and the writing is pretty consistent um as well, that it just, it works so well, and he the fact that he can work with all the other characters ah is really impressive, so.
01:04:01
Speaker
Like him saying that is like, he's delivering it with just a little twinkle. Yeah. It's like, he's being nice by telling you this. He would have killed me. Yeah. The line is so like rough and like blunt, but because you know, because Tilly knows his personality at this point, her reaction is to smile, to kind of laugh like, haha, but I know you're telling the truth. You know what I mean? right it's like you can be now he can be blunt he can be just as blunt as he's always been but people get it and they accept him and yeah it adds something really interesting to the show i agree okay would this be a fun hollow novel to play out i but probably there's lots of action um while i did not like this watching this episode it'd probably be a fun video game i mean you get to like
01:04:45
Speaker
draw you know, be in a shuttle and the shuttle explodes and be in Kankato and like, I don't know. I don't know if this, I don't think this would be a fun, what what would be, you've got three platters or three levels you can play if you're doing this as a holo novel. Yeah, I don't know what you get at the end of the game. This would have to be like the middle of a holo novel. Open the portal so you can jump in it.
01:05:06
Speaker
But it's so weird because they open the portal and then you see people go in yeah and get sucked in and it's not going to work. and yeah And then they close it and put a force field on it. So then you have to distract the guard to lower the force field to open it and then jump in. And and Maul has the realization like Burnham's advantage goes away because Maul has an epiphany face. And it's just like. that's not fun Like, none of that's actually fun. ah To me, it doesn't seem fun to like skulk around in a green helmet and have a couple of conversations to convince people that you belong there. um And I don't know, the the stuff with the president, like, why is the president here? Yeah. like
01:05:52
Speaker
Talk about useless characters. What do you even do? yeah You have ambassadors. It should be Saru and Tarina. It should be like s Saru is working for somebody, the lead Federation ambassador. like he enveloped He got elevated so quickly, but like that's how great Saru is and that's how much this ambassador was or whatever.
01:06:11
Speaker
The Breen killed the ambassador. So now Saroo's the one who's in charge of the negotiations. And like that's the tension because now it's all on Saroo. And now we have stakes. Now we know that the Breen are really dangerous. That's right. And instead we have the president coming. Anytime you bring a president character in, unless the show is about them, like that it sucks up all the oxygen. And most politicians are not specialists.
01:06:39
Speaker
or really like they're good at being a politician. Well, they're not action heroes, right? So they're not going to be in the action. They're just going to be in the talking part of like, who should I send on this mission? Right. That's where their role. And in this case, they said this line where they were like, well, the president can't go, because what if the Breen overreact and blow up her ship? So we got to see someone else. The concept that they would even the fact that they even said that is ridiculous.
01:07:03
Speaker
Like, the fact that that was even entertained, you know what I mean? Like, that's ridiculous. That doesn't make any sense at all. Why is the president going to negotiate with the police? Why would you even think it's a good idea, like, or an idea on the list? Right. It's like, that doesn't make any... Did you guys have protocols? Yeah, exactly. That's insane. Yeah. Okay, so you're a no on that one. Got it. The Anton Kridian Award for Best Performance. I think I might disagree with whoever you say, because I'm not sure. I have an idea.
01:07:29
Speaker
I don't think you'll disagree because I didn't put anyone, so. I'm going to put Calum Keith Rennie, I guess. Okay. I really, I i really liked Sinequa Martin-Green. I think I've said this last couple of episodes, even in labyrinths, as much as I liked the final therapy scene. Yeah, there's they've been giving her so much goofy shit that it's like it's hard. for I think it's been hard for her to lock into her performance. Remember face the strange when we went back and she's like, I went back and looked at my little journals and stuff. Then you watch that episode. And she's like, she is locked in as Captain Burnham in this conflict with Rainer. And then she's her younger self. And like, she's not only playing her younger self exactly how she was, she's playing herself facing her younger self. And that's locking into like, they're just giving like, it's just
01:08:15
Speaker
plot, plot, plot, plot, plot. There's no, like, character here. It's not really going anywhere. Because she's to me, she's in the Patrick Stewart space of, like, you could give it to her every episode. But at least in these last two episodes, I haven't really felt that. And he he was like, we just talked about Rayner in a way that I was like, oh, he's gruff, but you can see the little twinkle of, like, he's a person. And, you know, Tilly wasn't. Tilly is tilling.
01:08:42
Speaker
i I'm going to give an honorable mention, I think, Blue Del Barrio. I thought Adira was good in this episode. Yes, Adira was effective in this episode. Yes, was effective. And in a way that was like, there was a hint of, okay, space dads, you all are being ridiculous.
01:09:02
Speaker
I don't need actually this much. Yeah. And maybe you're an adopted kid, but I'm not actually a kid. Like I could do this. I've done this before I even met you guys. So I got this. So then the Shatner.
Dramatic Character Transitions
01:09:19
Speaker
I put, I guess, Mal and her Harley Quinn style character. I guess, no. b I encourage you to be as confident as possible.
01:09:31
Speaker
I mean, she's not acting in front of a green screen as far as I know. She's in front of the AR wall. So there's like ah something there. And but also I'm sure she's like the only person on set or she's acting against people whose faces she can't see. And she's not being written in any way like a ah rough and tumble criminal at this point. She is being written like a hurt princess.
01:09:58
Speaker
And and and so she's she's chewing the scenery and way going for it. And yeah, that's a Shatner for sure. Again, not necessarily bad acting, just going for it. And she's she's definitely going for I'm hurt.
01:10:15
Speaker
by I am now the Queen of the Breen. I'm the Breen Queen. Yeah. After just one one assassination. Just like that. and sorry And nobody had any problems with that. i think of We didn't like him anyways. And just like that, I was the Queen of the Breen.
01:10:34
Speaker
Shoots of Thrill, most exciting image or sequence. This is perfect. this is This show, Discovery, inspired this new grade for the season. And an episode like this is exactly why. Is there any question it's the end sequence? Where Discovery like literally goes through the shuttle bay. It decompresses the ship. and the like Forget our people. We need to get that thing. And it goes into space and it explodes.
01:11:05
Speaker
I'm guessing since they always, since the brain always wear uniforms with i guess their own air system in it because they don't just pressurize the ship to have the proper type of air or whatever. Um, yeah, they're all fine. Nobody died from this explosive decompression. So that's nice. Cause that was my first thought is I was just like, wait, you're just going to blow a hole and suck everyone out into space. That's messed up. Yeah. But then I was like, I guess they all live and maybe they have the little like,
01:11:32
Speaker
you know, the little, um, like the iron man thing where they just fly themselves back into the ship or something. I don't really know, but, uh, I, but I felt like that they probably all have that. And probably nobody was injured in this very disastrous moment that I think would cause a lot of injury, but no one mentioned it. So I guess yes it was fine. It looked great though. It looked cool. Very, very noisy and messy. My favorite part was the explosion when the barrel exploded and turned into a portal in space. That's part of the same sequence. Oh, yeah, same sequence. No, I agree with you. I'm just saying that was the part where I was like, oh, when I exploded, I was like, oh, my gosh, did they die? And then when it was a portal, I was like, what happened right now? And they were like, tractor it. And they were like, you can't, because now it's a portal. We can tractor like the thing the portal was in, but that we can't tractor the actual portal.
Innovative Tools in Stealth Missions
01:12:19
Speaker
And I was like, oh, that's a nice twist. Yeah. Now it has to stay there in space. We can't.
01:12:25
Speaker
Grab it, I guess. I think it's kind of a leap of logic for Rainer to be like, oh, it's, oh good, it's a portal. She's still alive. I don't know. Well, it was, the book was like, she's alive. I was waiting for him to be like, I can feel it, but he didn't say that. But I thought he was going to say it. I was like, watch, it's going to come any minute. He's going to be like, I can feel her with my empathy. She's alive. But he didn't. He just was like, she's alive. Trust me or something like that. And I was like, okay, well.
01:12:52
Speaker
could be a little more definite, right? Because I guess she's not on the scans, but you're like the new Betazeds. So can't you just like feel her energy through the through the waves because of love or something? Because Troy could always do that.
01:13:05
Speaker
um you know
01:13:08
Speaker
What part of this we teach at Starfleet Academy? Oh, that's easy. A portable pattern buffer. That is what they will teach because imagine how many undercover agents you could sneak in to a heist episode just using the sleeves of your arms. I mean, that pattern buffer was like the size of a freaking tic-tac container. So you can have 12 of those on each arm and then you get into the the secret base and you just go pew pew pew.
01:13:33
Speaker
human, everybody materializes. I mean, but this is more video game stuff where it's just your inventory. Yes. But what a cool thing. Like I this to my knowledge is the first time they introduce such a thing, right? and Well, that's basically whenever we would see their phasers suddenly appear around the wrist. It's the same concept. Oh,
01:13:54
Speaker
ah But I guess that okay what i mean what to you know what though to me what bumped is that Mal goes, I'm going to do this so that it preserves him because he doesn't have much. I don't know how this technology works, but I do suspect if he's just sitting here rotting.
01:14:11
Speaker
it will be harder to bring it back to life. So I'm gonna put a i'mma put my man in my little wrist pattern buffer. So I was like, well, I don't know. timing was a little The timing was a little weird because she did it just before jumping into the portal. um But I think it was more Yes, the part of it is like, well, if he was like rotting, you you should have done this the second he died. But then the other part of it was kind of like, I felt like she didn't trust leaving him alone with the rest of the brain.
01:14:41
Speaker
But I feel like really the person you shouldn't have trusted was Primark Dune. When you shot him, everybody else was like, we love Maul. We love Maul. So like, I guess they accepted you. I don't know. what Was there a danger? And then the other thing was she kept being like, your scion will thank you. Your scion will reward you. And I just didn't feel...
01:15:01
Speaker
i did I did not logically connect the fact that that meant anything to the breed because as far as we could tell, um Locke was kind of a loser. like People were not worshipping him. People were not like, oh, we you know what I mean? He was he was like- They went too far to making them Bonnie and Clyde, but like real dirt baggy. They went too far. They didn't give us moments where he wasn't timid yeah you know and he or just like there wasn't something about him that made you think this guy is interesting uh as much as i like to inspire loyalty in any way shape which is i like the actor's enthusiasm what was the first thing i said oh i played one of the most obnoxious people on the expanse i couldn't wait for him to die you know what i mean like so he's actually really good as a screen presence for like being like something about this guy i don't like you know it's like which is actually the opposite of what you needed for lock it's like
01:15:54
Speaker
you mean So when you actually did like, and it's like, maybe he just needs a couple of things to break a different way. um Yeah. What did you have for that? What part will be taught?
01:16:06
Speaker
Again, it's tied to the bad science. like I'm imagining that in Starfleet Academy, they get taught proper science. So Lagrange points between two black holes. like When you're dealing with an event horizon, it is not just like a collapsing, it's not just It's a collapsed star. So it's different from like the orbit of one or some sort of intense gravity well, and that they're treating it like it's it's simply a 10. No, it's like light cannot escape it. It is the most big. thing that tears things apart and Starships kind of treat it, ah Star Trek tends to treat them cavalierly in a way in a way that now it's like, okay, maybe Discovery could where the Enterprise and Stranger Worlds couldn't withstand being that close to one, but you're not really supposed to be able to get that close to them and and be okay. And there was so I would just think that- And be in the middle of two of them and then just like reverse thrusters.
01:17:04
Speaker
Just so as like but as a hiding spot. I mean, it it just doesn't make sense. Like that's the perfect place to destroy the technology. which should have been their aim. So why they're keeping it around and then they're putting it in a spot where actually it would have been very easy for it to be destroyed. yeah but They're there're supposed to be some of the smartest minds if they were able to divine or create this clue trail. Like why not just throw it into a black hole?
Pop Culture Tropes vs. Star Trek Quirks
01:17:32
Speaker
That will be the end of it. Like that will be the end of the technology. No one will have to worry about it. We don't even need the c clue trail. Yeah. Just toss it in and keep it moving. So.
01:17:43
Speaker
So, there but actually the actual answer is they'll they'll teach Oceans 11 style heist plotting. You have somebody five minutes and they will come a group come up with a great plan. I mean, Burnham's final exam was probably like, can you extemporaneously plot out a heist? Yeah. So that's where she drew on her graduate school experience. and that ah Could this episode have been horny or would that have made it better? Yes, I think so.
01:18:11
Speaker
Tell me more. You always have such interesting ways to add this in that I never think about. If you do the version. Well, actually, it is horny. So could have been hornier because this horny when he plays the trick, the distraction trick of coming onto to the brain, which is funny, which is funny. Good.
01:18:29
Speaker
But as in terms of like, could Star Trek is not just generic sci-fi stuff? Like, again, what I said in our first episode was like, to me, I am a snob. And this was more on the other side of that Saturday afternoon syndicated stuff instead of like, What is Star Trek? Well, is Gene Roddenberry's weird kinks getting out sometimes? Sometimes the writers' weird kinks came in. And this was just much flatter, generic. Like I said, we cited Star Wars, Indiana Jones, heist films. It's taking from just very obvious pop culture cliches, tropes in their own right. They didn't do Jurassic Park. Jurassic Park, yeah. So at least there's that. That's true. There was no must go faster. But they could.
01:19:18
Speaker
You could at all times have some some degree of I think horniness is what separated Star Trek a lot of the time from the other science fiction that was going out there. And so I don't know. Once Burnham and Book patch things up, a little butt slap. I don't know something. They're in the helmet. You know what the problem is? They're in the helmet. So all you've got is the heads up display. Yes. You could have had a moment where Reese and and and Adira when they're together.
01:19:47
Speaker
Maybe um we only get their heads up displays, but they're like, nice work. Maybe it could have been like that was kind of hot. You know what I mean? Like, and there's an attraction between them something to give it something. You know what I mean? Instead of just like we're characters on the video game level. So.
01:20:04
Speaker
Uh, and I think it would have made it better because it would have given us a little bit, something more than just like plot, plot, plot, plot, plot, plot, plot. Okay. We checked this box book and Burnham had made up just some time in the finale. That's great. You know, Oh good. Saru is back. Finally. He's been gone for several episodes. I was literally like, I was literally like, Oh yeah, Saru. I saw him in the game. I was like, all right, how do I forget about him? He was like such an important character.
01:20:28
Speaker
We found the progenitor's tech and Burnham jumped into
Maintaining Star Trek Continuity
01:20:31
Speaker
it, check. like we We know we we've moved all the chess pieces into place and great, but what else? you know It's the story, it's characters that we've cared about. And even though they didn't know it was the last season, it was still the fifth season. you know So like you could have you you had to have some sense the end was near. So like what can we do to evolve that or make it distinct? Anyway, ah so Trek marry or kill, Lagrange point. This was a kill for me.
01:20:57
Speaker
I'm with you. It was a kill. The juice was not worth the squeeze. I think moving the pieces around could have been done in 20 minutes and we could have had 20 minutes of something more interesting going on. That was my opinion. and I mean, imagine if in the last episode, Labyrinth, instead of having the fake ship explosion and we think they're gone but they're not, which was really cool, and I'm glad they did that. I also like that they were fixing the ship in the start of the episode. Yes, that was great. like It was like, whoa, that episode ended the second this one began, which you never see, it's always like a week later. you know um But while that was awesome, what could have been cool is maybe they did that same thing and they're racing the Breen to
01:21:38
Speaker
the the device, they both get there at the same time and somehow Burnham and Maul jump into it. And that was the end of that episode. And then we go into the the last episode. Like much of this episode, which we just didn't need. um But obviously some parts we did need. But we did. But it's like, yeah, like exactly what you said. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze. yeah So we have one episode of Star Trek Discovery left. ah It's going to be New Year's Eve.
01:22:07
Speaker
It's crazy to think about. um I know I didn't plan this so that it happened to coincide with the holidays where people maybe aren't listening. But they'll all be together so people can go and listen to them in bulk, listen to Shreese and I journeying through the season and our have ah feelings about the season evolve. But i I wanted to put a couple of episodes that I thought really matched up with Discovery. I like doing this with our show format where like take a new season of a show, see what maybe has Star Trek has done previously. So that's why we did things like Relativity and Shattered. Is it Shattered? But anyway, like, I thought it was fun. And and Discovery is part of Star Trek canon, you know, and people who disagree with that, you're done. Shut up. i So it's just nice that as much as possible to tie it into canon, even when it's
01:23:01
Speaker
just ignoring the overt references to like, remember this or this was a mess. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. You're doing your version of this episode, which Star Trek does all the time and it's great. Every first season is the same as every other first season. but You're like, I've seen this episode three other times, but with a whole new cast and I watch it and I like it.
01:23:23
Speaker
That's how you know you're part of the canon. You're part of the history. You have similar things. there's You can compare them. you And I love whenever they get the new writers and the old writers together. It happened at Star Trek Las Vegas this past summer. ah There was an online talk that the WGA did a couple of years ago where this guy, Phil Parello, who's a writer, he has a ah the transport order room three podcast co-hosts. He put together basically an Avengers style of like writers from all across the series, which is great, but what was interesting about that and then this 50-year mission or the Las Vegas con was that they don't normally talk to each other because why would they? They're not working on the same shows, they're different eras, they're all at different levels, but when they do
01:24:10
Speaker
There's so much like story swapping and interest in like the older writers get to hear how the younger writers how their stuff was is now filtered down and used by the new ones. The new people talk about their limitations and the old people talk about what their limitations are and they're like we wish we could.
01:24:28
Speaker
do what you got we wish we had your budgets and like we wish you we had your episode count or like we you know it's like no we had execs who told us we couldn't do this this or that and they're like we have execs who tell us we can only do this like so just fun to see that they have way more in common than you would think and it's just fun I love the history so i One thing I definitely want to do this year with Discovery was definitely make sure that I make it very clear that even if I don't like episodes, and maybe even the way the show is made a lot of the time, it's Star Trek and I wanted to tie it into canon as much as possible.
Timeless Nature of Podcasts and Future Accessibility
01:25:03
Speaker
So that necessarily meant that I would interrupt the flow a little bit, which is why we're doing the series finale of the show on New Year's Eve when probably people are going to be busy, but maybe that just means you have time in the new year to listen to it. And here's the beautiful thing about podcasts. You may be listening to this 10 years from now. Hello, future people. I hope you really liked this episode. And I hope you still have access to this show on whatever future streaming technology exists.
01:25:30
Speaker
and Cherise, she talks about other things beyond Star Trek, though largely Star Trek. Where? Mostly Star Trek. Yeah, almost exclusively Star Trek. You can find me on YouTube if you type in at the Sci-Fi Savage, where I do ah weekly live streams talking all things Star Trek. so I'd love to have you join me. If you find me on YouTube, you'll see all the details there. All right. But the Sci-Fi Savage, what Cherise offers,
01:25:58
Speaker
is joy. And I love it. I love watching your streams because You coming here is when you're like, all right, I've got to acknowledge some of the negative stuff. And I love it. Yeah, you're right. I don't usually pick out the negatives. I mean, sometimes I do. Like, I have a whole episode that's the worst couples of Star Trek TNG. So of course, that's just bashing all the couples that I think are just terrible, terrible, terrible ideas. But that's so fun. But it's still fun. It's negative in a fun way. Yes. Two vics. Your thoughts are two vics. You know what I mean? Those can be negative.
01:26:33
Speaker
yeah So check out the Sci-Fi Savage. ah We'll be back next week with a little new episode. Trek Mary K Pod on social media. TrekMaryKillPod.com online for all of our standings. And so until next week, TMK out. Bye.