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"Wagnerok" ACN Pod 109
81 Plays1 year ago
Jon & Tom react to the news that Wagner and Buhler are joining Norwich City as head coach and assistant (probably). We look at the pros and cons and consider whether the bigger problem than getting up will be recruiting the right players to stay in the PL.
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Transcript
Introduction of David Wagner as New Manager
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Longcome Norwich Podcast, a venture into verbal volleyball where we vigorously investigate the value of the newly verified Norwich manager, David Wagner. It's just me and thee today, Punt. Let's get reacting. Right then, John. Mark's out of ten for who it is and how quickly they've got him in. How quickly? I will say that's an eight.
00:00:44
Speaker
Look, they've delivered on what they promised. We needed the new manager in or the new head coach in double quick. They've got them in double quick. So that is absolutely fair play. In terms of rating the managerial or the head coach appointment.
Skepticism and Support for Wagner's Appointment
00:01:01
Speaker
I'm really meh about it like it's six six out of ten I guess for me I get it but it's familiar to Weber he knows exactly what he's getting it's it's clear that Wagner fits I guess what what Weber was putting out in his quote in terms of recognizing the importance of getting the fans on board he is one of these tub thumping kind of really you know fist pumping managers that that might get in front of the
00:01:30
Speaker
work us up into a frenzy and maybe that's what we need but i just hope
00:01:35
Speaker
I really hope, and I'm sure we'll get into this, that the club have learned lessons in terms of the Dean Smith appointment and that with Wagner there is going to be a degree of scepticism around the football club. And I think that's natural given that, look, he's been sacked from his last three posts. So we need to put in the requisite support mechanisms around him to start to construct, and we've used the word a lot on this podcast this season, the narrative around what a David Wagner team is,
00:02:05
Speaker
What do they look like? What do they do? What can we expect over the next five months hurtling towards the end of the season now already? And more importantly, what can we expect in terms of the two-year plan, the five-year plan? We just haven't been spoken to about that for so very long. It feels like it's badly needed.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right. I would give him a seven out of 10 just simply because of the some of the names that were in the frame struck fear in me that you know, I was gonna have to do a real reframing positive mental attitude sit down have a word with myself to be even
00:02:45
Speaker
willing to come on a podcast or go to Carrow Road and be positive about it. I was really fearful that we might have ended up with a dinosaur in my humble, unbadged, uncertificated opinion. So I think it makes perfect sense that it's been tagged pre-appointment being announced. It's been tagged with boring
00:03:08
Speaker
in some quarters, but I think actually if you think about what they're pointing out there is they're going, oh, that's a bit obvious. Well, you know, sometimes the obvious thing is good, you know, beans on toast, cheese on toast, you know, sometimes you just think, well, that's something that I know is going to work, so I'll go with it. He has, you know, very, very simply based on, you know, all the information that's available on the internet, you can look at this like with most things with a half full, half empty kind of approach.
Wagner's Past Successes and Challenges
00:03:34
Speaker
The half full approach is he's not just one promotion but he's done it via the playoffs. Obviously with that penalty shootout against Reading his teams play the right way so there was talk of reset needed and it is a reset not a rebuild and I think that is that is important just to say you know he should be able to get closer to that philosophy that in theory was top to bottom everything the club was going to be about until Smith got involved.
00:04:00
Speaker
He was part of the team, the leadership team, that brought in some really great talent across from continental Europe on the cheap. Built a squad, included players like Aaron Moy, who I was always really, really admired when I saw him play. And they didn't really spend enough in their second time around Huddersfield to stay up. And no one got a tune out of them after he left. None of those players have gone on to have great Premier League careers. I don't think he had the tools for the job.
00:04:29
Speaker
and his last team beat Man United in the Champions League last season and he guided them to second place in the league. Now, there is a half empty to cancel out some of that, which is okay. Yeah, he went one better than Farka and he managed to stay up the first season before he had to go to war without a gun kind of argument.
00:04:47
Speaker
And, you know, young boys were 15 points drift, having won it three times on the bounce before that. So, okay. He's secondly that good. If you've got the equivalent of a, of a Celtic or Rangers in that kind of league and Ashauka, he, you know, set that 16 league games without a win record. 18 was 18 was it, but the point is that is, that's a fascinating example. Maybe league games, cup games, whatever. It doesn't matter. Point is.
00:05:10
Speaker
I've seen also those who care a lot more about football that isn't played in England than me say that there's a lot of mitigating factors for them being a bit of a mess, et cetera. But I don't know enough about that to speak on that. That'll come out on proper podcast. Now, I think for me that the half full list there, and I didn't start writing those bullet points with
00:05:33
Speaker
really one or the other in mind because for me it is an obvious appointment he makes perfect sense so I'm kind of slightly more positive but honestly I think those half full things stand up much better than the half empty ones do if he does what he says on the tin which is player proven style of football we know that he can play more so than Smith came with you know I certainly didn't have any impression of what Smith's football was really having watched Villa for a couple of years and seen him and them in the Premier League knew he'd spent a lot more money than we were likely to give him
00:06:04
Speaker
Whereas Wagner's not the case. And he has, like I say, masterminded some good results in European football. It's hard to finish anything other than bottom of a Champions League group with young boys. So I didn't even realise I'd made a pun. You see what I mean? If they get enough wrong. With anything with young boys.
00:06:25
Speaker
No, but that's it. I'm fully on the 7 out of 10 and if he gets a fast start, 8 out of 10. I'm completely ready to buy into falling in love with the new manager's style and rhetoric and
00:06:44
Speaker
And just like you said, you hit the nail on the head as you do one in a thousand. He has got a rapport with the fans that effectively he must have had a decent rapport with the Shaulker fans to go double digit losses in a row and not have been sacked.
Fan Engagement and Club Culture
00:07:01
Speaker
So if we're being explained to what's happening,
00:07:05
Speaker
And I think that could be crucial come the end of the season if it doesn't go well, which I still think we will finish at least in the playoffs. I do think that's the case, partly because they've acted so quickly with such a safe pair of hands. But almost irrelevant of whether or not we go up or not, there's a lot of players out of contract, a lot of decisions to be made. And I want, especially with some of the more sensitive ones like the GOAT,
00:07:29
Speaker
I want to be involved in that conversation. I want the fans to understand what might happen with players who have gone, do you know what, I'm ready for a new challenge, whether they're in or out of contract. Players like cruel, players like Gunn, if it were that we didn't go up and he might think that he's done enough to show he can move on.
00:07:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I feel more positive. The timing of it, again, you mentioned that you gave that an eight out of ten. I mean, I would give that a ten out of ten because realistically, I don't think it's reasonable to ask to move any quicker. And they moved too quickly last time, in my opinion. And I think we've paid the price for it. The reason I maybe went on eight and I hadn't prepared for that question, so you kind of caught me on the hop.
00:08:16
Speaker
Look, it was timely. It was good. I just get the sense that maybe Wagner was the only show in town and that all roads were going to lead to him. And if that was the case, and there'd been some preliminary discussions about him coming ahead of Dean Smith being relieved of his duties, which let's be honest, those kind of conversations happen. You know, back channels are always kind of working in that regard.
00:08:41
Speaker
I don't know, maybe we could have moved slightly swifter, but that's been hypercritical. I think... Unlike you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the pertinent point that you touched on, I think is...
00:08:51
Speaker
is getting everyone together now. And it is not just David Wagner harnessing the positive energy that should be around a new managerial appointment, but everyone harnessing that. And that's supporter groups who should galvanize and really get behind him in the stands. And the advent of the drum being a Barkley should really, really help with that and should help to drive the
00:09:15
Speaker
you have the team on, but the football club as well. And I think Wagner will be acutely aware. And you look at someone like Frank Lampard, right, who...
00:09:24
Speaker
let's be honest, should have been relieved of his duties, what, three or four months ago? It's been an absolute shambles, Evan. A fraudulent appointment should not be in that job. It's ridiculous. For a club with the stature and size of Everton to be floating around where they are is just inconceivable based on the money they've spent. And I know there are wider
00:09:47
Speaker
systemic issues about football club but Frank Lampard was never going to fix any of those. But what Frank Lampard did early doors is he tried to understand the culture of the football club, he tried to understand the fans, he went on the charm offensive and that's bought him two or three more months than he actually deserved. If Dean Smith had done that, I'm not saying that everything would have been different and his football would have been great and everyone would have been positive.
00:10:10
Speaker
But it might have brought him a bit more time and actually in a more comfortable environment, maybe those players might have flourished a bit. I really always thought that both he and the club were missing a trick in terms of not trying to construct the, you know, the story of where Norris City are going next.
00:10:27
Speaker
and that's what has to happen now. Stuart Webber needs to come out or Neil Adams or whoever it is at the football club and spend some time with the local boys, spend some time certainly with the likes of Michael Bailey, an arch and the beeb and really give them, this is what we're thinking, get under the bonnet, this is the direction of travel.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, we haven't had it for so long. And it does us a disservice as fans that the football club didn't recognize that we needed that. And Norwich is an educated fan base. Norwich fans want to understand what's going on. And they really value their local journalists. And as you say repeatedly on this podcast, we are really lucky to have who we have that are working on the local beat.
00:11:15
Speaker
Let them help. Let them be along for the journey because everyone else wants to get on board. The club are really at pains regularly to have said when things were going well, we are stronger together. This is the time when we need to get stronger and we need to be together.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, so two things there. The first thing I was, I'm glad you brought up the Elite drum because I think it was superb. It was commented on by the Reading fans after the game, how good the atmosphere was considering how bad the game was.
00:11:48
Speaker
And what I'd noticed in both the Reading and Watford game, it was probably more the case in the Watford game where I think Watford were on top for much longer spells than Reading were. I thought, my goodness me, Reading are unattractive to watch. But then I thought that Blackbone as well, I thought Blackbone were awful when we played them at home the first time.
00:12:05
Speaker
Obviously they've got them coming up again at the weekend. It really does suppress the away fans, you know, when you've got that constant drone of the beam and you're not kind of wondering what you're going to do next. And it basically, it shortens the gaps between the songs. And I thought, given how poor really the performances on the pitch were, I did think the players played with a bit more freedom, particularly first half against
00:12:33
Speaker
Reading, I think they ran out of puff a bit after half an hour. They sort of thought, Oh, right. Okay. We thought this probably was going to be enough to have got kind of got the breakthrough and be, be out of sight by now. And I feel they sort of lost their way a bit because, you know, the only tactic did seem to be you three make nonstop runs. And then Gabi Sara, when you get the chance, you make runs as well, but no one seemed to have told the defense or the defensive midfielders to put the ball in the channels when they made those runs or to drop deep and actually get the ball. That would help. No, no.
00:13:00
Speaker
So it was, we looked like, they looked like 11 lads that were told to go and run about a bit. Um, uh, enjoy yourself, enjoy the occasion. There'll be a new manager on soon. He'll be watching or she will be watching this, et cetera. Um, and they played like that really. And therefore there was some good bits and there was some woeful bits. Um, and, uh,
Transition from Dean Smith to Wagner
00:13:18
Speaker
To your point on if there was a better narrative, the reason the atmosphere was so good was because Dean Smith had gone and the Norwich fans felt like they'd been listened to and they felt like it was almost a celebration of a new era in coming.
00:13:33
Speaker
And the fact that they were willing to sing someone else's name who had tactically achieved next to nothing because they basically did one press conference where they said, I'm going to try and play like this. And then they tried to play like that. They did. It was interesting that they ditched his name from the Yellow Army chant, like probably about halfway through the Watford game when it was like, actually, this is fucking shit. Yeah. And and whether or not
00:13:57
Speaker
We've heard a couple of names that look like they're going to be in the coaching backroom staff, but they haven't come out properly, doubly sourced or whatever, but it doesn't. Have we? You have, I haven't. Okay. Yeah, so I have, but I'm not sure whether or not he'll still be about.
00:14:18
Speaker
You know he was a club appointment not a smith appointment etc, but yeah, it just showed that all they wanted was not him I think Mcdennis made a really good point about the fact that if you know there were a smattering of booze here and there mostly for the ref in the reading game and
00:14:36
Speaker
But actually, they probably would have been booed off all four halves had that been a Dean Smith Norwich performance. And I think there is an element where he's right, but they're basically booing a lack of ideas, a lack of creativity, a lack of taking opportunities properly or creating the right incisive opportunities and using the tools that you've got to their disposal properly.
00:14:59
Speaker
and and they don't and they we you know that I mean I don't say we when we when it comes down to books I don't stand and boo I just can't it doesn't seem I I'd never tell someone you can't you shouldn't but to me I just it just feels so counterproductive shouting and swearing yeah I'm all over that and but actually personal abuse yes booing no just checking where your line is mate
00:15:22
Speaker
When you say personal abuse, that is shit. It's not necessarily a personal abuse. I don't tend to say a particular person's name, although I do sometimes call for people to be subbed, but I don't think they can hear me anyway. When it comes to the booing, I think that is what is being booed. It was just the rock that was being booed. And Webber mentioned it in his interview with Sky Sports, and I do find it interesting how often
00:15:48
Speaker
our friend Mick, you know, I am ever so fond of Mick, how close to the Weber's kind of line he so often is, when he was saying no, actually, it's difficult for the players in that toxic environment to be able to perform. And yeah, I get it that it must be very, very difficult to hear your manager being called out in that way. But likewise, from alternative sources,
00:16:10
Speaker
And there were several players sending texts to other people within the game about how buzzing they were that the change had been made. And you saw that all of the players out on loan liked the fact that he'd been sacked. And the only social media post I saw about it was from Isaac Hayden. I didn't see any other players. Yeah, I think Ramsey might have put something on Instagram.
00:16:29
Speaker
Well, there you go. Doesn't that tell you a story? I mean, come on. And I know he only had a year. A year is still a long enough time for you to have been in the employment of someone where you're, you know, let's have it right. Some of those weeks they see each other seven times a week.
00:16:46
Speaker
to not be able to have built up that approach. I feel like he had lost the players earlier this season. And I feel like they were surprised they had that big winning run. And likewise, it's always been the case that we consistently, even when we were second in the league and we went on that crazy unbeaten run and that winning run, we were saying, yeah, but we don't look very good like the football shit.
00:17:13
Speaker
And we were bemoaning how bad the league must be for us to be where we were, as happy as we were to be there. And that's just, we never thought it was sustainable. So it was just simply not true to say, oh, his results, results will change everything around. It's like, well, no, not really. So I think there was, it was very nice, you referenced Weber's interview.
Relationship with Stuart Weber
00:17:31
Speaker
It was very nice that he acknowledged, and I think, look, let's, let's just say, look, we've spoken to people in the club and earlier this season,
00:17:40
Speaker
there was very much an attitude of, look, if we just keep winning or if we start winning, then everything will be all right and the fans will get on board. And Stuart Weber should come out very candidly and pretty much admit that he'd underestimated that, you know, the bond between a head coach and the fans needed to be a real thing. And maybe that was unique to this football club. And maybe, you know, winning wasn't the be all and end all. And there's more to it, a community club like Norwich City.
00:18:06
Speaker
I thought that was really good. I think some of the headlines that maybe had been generated out of his interview and a veil, well not even a veil dig, it was kind of a little poke at the fans, maybe were harsh because actually if you listen to that seven and a half minutes or however long it was, I thought he talked.
00:18:25
Speaker
quite a lot of sense all the way through it and there was a more of a conciliatory tone than I've seen for a while from him and maybe that's because I haven't seen him for a while but I don't know, I think it was considered, I think Weber knows what he's doing with the media a lot of the time and he knows what he wants to say and he got some pretty decent messages across. What did you make of him?
00:18:49
Speaker
I was kind of, I feel a little bit like a wounded lover with Webber. There's an element where I just think, I don't know, there's going to have to be a few interviews where there's more positives than Vail Jabs at the fan base and at the local media to whom we are really good friends with. And he didn't mention them at all, I don't think. It was all we need to get together, but the media weren't, yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm you know, you know that there have been there have been so many attempts to try and You know resolve that because he's not a workable situation and this should be a prime example you mentioned before about the club rallying round around just trying to take advantage of the the positivity of Wagner Rock and you know the era that we've now gone into you just wanted to say that so that you could use it as a podcast title and
00:19:49
Speaker
Edie wasn't available. We didn't have someone to come on and say something bonkers about frogs wearing tutus or whatever to be able to come up with the title. But yeah, I don't think that they will necessarily do that unless they
00:20:04
Speaker
unless they say, right, come on, let's have everyone in, you're all going to get a 20 minute sit down with Wagner. Or, you know, or a 10 minute sit down with Wagner, a 10 minute sit down with Stuart. After the Blackburn game, before the Preston game, to, you know, I can't to Colney. Just be so silly not to, though, wouldn't it? Yeah. But just be really silly. Because they'll have had enough time to have a few conversations and get together about what they're actually planning on doing.
00:20:33
Speaker
and Wagner will have had got that Blackburn game out of the way. We'll be out of the cup, we can concentrate on the league. And there should by then be a fairly substantial message because you would think once Weber had spoken to Wagner, if he got the feeling from the rest of the decision making bods at Carrow Road that he was going to be allowed to appoint his mate,
00:21:00
Speaker
you would think that he would probably have said to Wagner, look, if you want it, it's probably yours. So I'd imagine their conversations can be, and this is where it might be a big advantage to appoint him, knowing how each other work, obviously Webber will have developed a bit and say, well, Wagner in the last few years, but.
00:21:15
Speaker
You'd imagine a lot of the formalities and a lot of the niceties maybe that it won't take as long for them to warm up and start getting on the same page and therefore maybe they will be a bit further ahead by Preston which is the first thing that really matters. I mean the right wagnerok era and to work keep pushing it you mean t-shirt and so yeah.
00:21:37
Speaker
To be fair, I did immediately jump to, you know, but also there's, I've just Googled his assistant and his last name is Bueller. So I've just jumped to loads of Ferris Bueller. Yeah.
Wagner's Fresh Approach and Style
00:21:47
Speaker
Well, I mean, if Andy Hughes is there as well, then we can start, you know, there's, there's Hughes electrical. Oh, but it's actually spelled Buller. So like B-U-H. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Buh. Buh. Buller.
00:22:02
Speaker
yeah all right yeah we can um there's plenty for us to go at but i mean the idea i mean the idea that the idea that we would ever put dean smith on a t-shirt to try and sell t-shirts and make money for flags and banners and t-fos and you know you just
00:22:22
Speaker
That just sums up everything that was wrong with where the club had got to and then where it went. Like this sort of weird sideways term he went where we just went actually, let's see if we can stay up with someone whose establishment, if you like. And Wagner to me feels like he's a little bit outside of the kind of establishment normal bods. He isn't mentioned all the time with all of the other, I read somewhere that he was close to West Brom getting a West Brom gig last year, I think.
00:22:52
Speaker
And I think it was a Spanish appointment that he was touted with as well. But at the same time, he isn't one of the, you know, he isn't part of the kind of Bruce Dyche. No, no, he's certainly not. Mary go round. And so I'm very positive about that. And the fact that he could give us, he could get us back to that stage where we feel like we are the underdogs, but we've got someone who knows how to play that underdog card.
00:23:17
Speaker
and knows how to creatively set us up to just entertain us. The goal we scored against Reading was a little mini triangle of sorts on the edge of the box. It was fantastic and it was brilliant and it was totally organic. I bet they couldn't do it again. I don't think it was worked on on colony. I don't think it's something that came out of brilliant tactics.
00:23:42
Speaker
I've seen people say, oh, well, it's already too late for this season. I think it is, mate. I really think it is. The playoffs?
00:23:51
Speaker
I think, I don't think that it is, look, we could make it. I'm saying, but if I was going to lay 20 quid either way on whether we will make it, then I don't think we will. And my reasons are really around the fitness of the squad, the energy levels, the despondency, which hopefully that changes with a new head coach coming in.
00:24:14
Speaker
But there's a downwards momentum about the football club. And until that gets arrested, and until everyone starts feeling positive about that.
00:24:22
Speaker
But the Wagner appointment doesn't necessarily lead me to a place where I'm like, well, that's all going to change quickly. And the reason that I say that is, look, neither you or I are football experts, otherwise we wouldn't, you know, we'd be doing a different podcast rather than the long-term Norwich podcast. But we do both know that we've seen Wagner sides, which certainly is Huddersfield side, and I saw real glimpses of the Schalke team early on.
00:24:48
Speaker
And they're really high energy. They're high press. He played with wingers. Very often there was a lone striker. But there was a real dynamism to it. Now, you look through that squad, we don't have that.
00:25:02
Speaker
We genuinely don't have that. Be it all the way through. Josh Sargent, yeah, apart from that. Is Kenny educated enough in terms of the way in which he plays football? There is a lot of running around in energy, but sometimes I think it's wasted energy. So maybe if he can be channeled, then that might be a positive.
00:25:23
Speaker
But I just, I've seen two or three people that, you know, I respect their opinions on Twitter go, oh, I really think that, you know, he'll get us to almost this high pressing style that Smith was driving towards.
00:25:35
Speaker
I think he's going to be way more high energy than that and I think it's going to take us potentially a good couple of months maybe three months to get wedded to that style and by the time we have I just think it'll be gone and you know and maybe we'll put on a late run and maybe we'll stay in touch and it will be enough because we've got certainly some quality individuals at the football club that you know if we do get on that run and we do start believing it could all be fine but I just think
00:26:01
Speaker
too much has gone and you know that we've got 20 games and we probably need to go at two points a game from now to be safely ensconced in playoffs.
00:26:10
Speaker
Well, I'll have 20 quid with you to a charity of your choice at the end of the season, because I think it would be effectively a game out with 20 to go. It would be an unmitigated failure of an appointment and Webber would seriously have to consider his future. But I don't think it would be a failure of an appointment if we'd got that style back and we'd got that connection back and we'd got that bond back.
00:26:34
Speaker
I think we'd be fine. You can think that, but the point I'm making is with 20 games to make up three points.
00:26:43
Speaker
in this league with the full momentum they should have had because if you then go, oh, well, actually, unfortunately, there wasn't enough time left this season. However, we don't have placed a nice football now. You've then got to say, what the fuck were you doing waiting until after the World Cup? You bellend. I agree with entirely. Yeah. Why were we waiting? But we were both on that page anyway. Yeah. But however, I would I will be I'm
00:27:09
Speaker
I'm not on that page if we win four of the next six because you go, okay, yeah, we've given ourselves enough time. And you go, okay, you made a call, you know football much better than I do, and you saw enough because he's at Colney, he's speaking to senior players, and we know he listens to senior players. And so, yes, I know, I've glibly said, I think you might have lost the dressing room a bit earlier.
00:27:31
Speaker
If that was really true, I honestly think they would have got rid sooner because he does care what the senior pros think because he knows the players when football matters. I think the camp was split from what we're told the camp was fairly split on Smith and some really liked his training methods but I think some possibly liked his training methods because they were used to Farkas training methods and these were completely different and I'm not saying it was the Costa del Colny that maybe it had been in the past but it was certainly easier on the individuals that are training there than it had been under the previous regime.
00:28:00
Speaker
I want stories after five, six days of the Wagner-Rock era starting. Are we going Wagner-Rock or Wagner-Rock? Because Wagner-Rock's harder to say. It's got to be Wagner though, hasn't it? Because that's his actual name.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah, but, you know, we're simple folk. OK, so fagner rock, Dave, Dave fagner rock. There you go. Dave fagner rock. OK. Meet me halfway. So Dave fagner rock era has started. I want five days in there to be a message about players are really struggling with the double sessions and how hard it is. And then they've had to run so far. Yes, please. More brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And that's where I think there will be a period of adjustment. And look, can you really see the likes of and look, these are two players we need to fire in a in a championship running because our midfield is
00:28:42
Speaker
Shit. Yeah, but you know, so can you see Marcelino Nunez and Gabi Sarah, you know, adjusting to those double sessions well, because I can't, and we really need them now. You know, it's unreasonable for us to need them now, because they both need to adjust, and they both need time and they both feel like
00:29:03
Speaker
mario vranchitch style kind of edging into english football and they just need that patience yeah but at the same time i don't i don't need them for the season if we're going to be successful i agree we need he needs to so wagner needs to get um
Player Adaptation and Development
00:29:21
Speaker
He needs to immediately get Campwell and or Nunez and say, you're my 10. It all goes through you. You're my steeper man. He might not use the phrase with them or a 10 though, are they to Kieran Dale?
00:29:35
Speaker
whatever. I mean, I don't think that's quite got the same level of ability to completely lift tooth players around. That was a really good championship attacking midfielder who his career has gone sideways because of it. But again, I don't think he's got the dynamism maybe to play in it. I don't think he's, I don't think his ceiling is the same as, as Cantwell or Nunez. I think Cantwell or Nunez could run the team. They're not Emmy Buendia players, but in the similar way to, or an Aaron Moy at Huddersfield, though he kind of was deeper into,
00:30:03
Speaker
you know, he built things from deeper than those two players would typically play. But my point is, they are two incredibly technically gifted attacking players who score goals and create goals and get fans off their seat and get momentum going and change momentum in games and draw fouls. And we do have a couple of people, you know, a couple of sarah's free kicks are very good. We do have people who can take attacking free kicks. And they can both win free kicks around the box and
00:30:28
Speaker
he needs to get an arm around them and say right under me I will get you the move of your dreams in the summer or you will I'll get you in the Premier League this is this is why I want to build I want to find a way of getting you in the team or you in the team or both of them or however he does it because I do think that
00:30:43
Speaker
I think we've got enough in Gibbs plus McLean, McLean plus Sara, Sara plus Gibbs. I think we've got enough in two of those, if Hayden might be fit enough to play the last five minutes of the last game. I think we've got enough there if you had something really, really special in front of them on form and on song that was basically taking the attention of at least one or two so that they were not constantly just being run through.
00:31:12
Speaker
I think Armidfield has underperformed, but I just think that they've chopped and changed personnel, they've chopped and changed shape, they've chopped and changed what they're being asked to do, whether they're being asked to receive the ball directly from the centre backs, whether they're being asked to receive the ball from the full backs after it's been pushed out from there. I have seen them all play well enough.
00:31:34
Speaker
in person to have confidence that they could all be part of a playoff final winning team. However, the sum of the parts at the moment doesn't seem to be firing and that is obviously coaching and tactics. So the reason that I'm willing to give ยฃ20 to the charity of your choice and it can't be the punt benevolent fund is going back to what I said before. How many people get that, Joe?
00:32:02
Speaker
and going back to what I said before, it's always good when you have to follow up a joke with not many people. Yeah, not many people would get that. That's nice. Yeah, your stand-up grid didn't go very well, did you? But yeah, I think it would be an unmitigated failure of an appointment because of, you know, one game in 20 we need to make up. So I don't think there will be
00:32:28
Speaker
And this is where my money's really going, more so than Norwich really. I'd be willing to put 20 pounds to any charity of your choice that there aren't four teams outside of Burney and Sheffield United that go at two points a game between now and the end of the season. I don't think it's a very good league. I think it's a really good, even league. Which is why I don't think anyone's good enough to go at two points a game like one. But I don't think we're that good either. But two points a game, it only gets you to like 76 points or something. And that's...
00:32:57
Speaker
You know, that's usually like middle of the playoffs towards the bottom, you know, kind of fourth, fifth. And yes, it will require a lower point to tally, but I don't think it will be like a 70-point job, which is one of the lowest ever to roll in. We only need to be six. We only need to get to the dance. You know, it's not like there's three rounds worth of games. It's not around Robin. We need to get to the dance and then if we've got a tactician who, again, if we got there, no one would want to face us because how often do we see the team with the momentum go all the way?
00:33:25
Speaker
When you do just creep in, you just creep in and you put all that joy of the last day, especially if it came down to the last kick or whatever, and then you're facing the team that just failed to catch Sheffield United, for example, or basically have never been able to catch Sheffield United because they're 15 points behind and they have been for the last three months, so they haven't really had as much to play for. The momentum's huge in playoff football.
Systemic Club Issues
00:33:51
Speaker
I'm not saying we're going to go up, I'm not saying there's not huge problems. One thing I also want to touch on this part is one of the other big talking points and things that have been often repeated when we've sort of looked at people reacting to the timing of the sacking and the fact that
00:34:09
Speaker
who we're going to get in is, oh well, there's a lot of other problems to solve. It's not just the manager who goes above that. So I wanted to actually look at what I think is what people are talking about there. And if we just look at the recruitment, I want to focus purely on if you're paying ยฃ20 to the charity of my choice at the end of the season and we actually then go up.
00:34:34
Speaker
Let's look at Webber's record on buying players for the Premier League. Underknows will be fun. So we've got Rishitsa, Gunn, Gibson, Yannoulis, Lees, Malou, Sargent, Zollis. Now, obviously, a couple in there were loans that turned into actual but they were players who were bought for a Premier League campaign. We also loaned in Gilmour, Williams, Norman and Quebec.
00:35:00
Speaker
I mean, what a window. And then, the previous time, obviously, was the go to war without a gun, instead of buying a bunch of 40 tanks. We had Fierman, Byram, I would argue, decent signing, unlucky with some of his injuries, dirt, although his history did suggest that. Dermitch, Duda, and Rupp came in Jan. And we loaned in Amadou and Patrick Roberts. So you got 12 permanent, six loan. Two of those, you could argue, are in our best 11 currently.
00:35:27
Speaker
two of 18 who are you arguing out of those because i've just gone so biram and gun you she's got gun and sergeant i would say okay are in our office 11 and biram might have a if he's fit could it could actually have a shout a left back because i think we've got real problems that left yes so so you could you know basically dimi biram gibson are all
00:35:47
Speaker
They're all players who will start a lot of games if fit and the other people aren't fit, but they're all totally capable of... Well, Bayern is not really capable of massive ricks. He's capable of just falling over and hurting himself every five minutes. Bless him. And it's such a shame because no one would take either side of the... I think he's the best fallback at the club when he's fit, you know, because Aaron's has regressed. Not Aaron's at his pump. And also, Aaron's is more of a wingback and attacking player, isn't he?
00:36:13
Speaker
But, and also his delivery is superb, his set piece delivery is superb. And then, yeah, looking at the lone players, none of those would get in our, I don't think any of those, aside from Williams, because of the fallback injury crisis we had earlier in the season, none of those players would even get in our team. So we hired, we, you know, we loaned six players on, you know, in two Premier League seasons, none of which would get into our current middle of the table championship team.
00:36:38
Speaker
Do you, I mean, Matthias Norman's playing in, in this team right now, isn't he? Brandon Williams is probably playing in this, in this team right now. I wouldn't pick, I wouldn't pick him over Demi. I wouldn't pick him. I mean, I didn't, wouldn't, wouldn't last season, wouldn't pick him over Demi. Definitely wouldn't pick him over Aaron's wouldn't pick him over, um,
00:36:56
Speaker
No, I pick him over McCallum and McCallum is the current incumbent. But you know, it's semantics, you know. It's another example of a player who's not improving us immeasurably, is he? He may well be a squad player in the championship, but he was recruited to strengthen us in the league. And again, similar to part of my defence for Wagner in the Huddersfield lot,
00:37:20
Speaker
It's not like Williams has gone on to play 50 games for Man United or gone on loan to Brentford and been brilliant for them or whatever. So that's the real issue for me.
00:37:36
Speaker
On his third attempt, if we get there again, he's got to improve on, if you're being unkind, a 2 out of 18 record of useful signings. And if you give him Byromandimmy or Byromand Williams, which I think is very kind, then 4 out of 18. I mean, that is abysmal. We can't afford to misfire. Now, you could argue, of course, that
00:38:02
Speaker
Jollis and Rishitsa might come back refreshed and full of form and all the rest of it. I think Rishitsa's office, I think Rishitsa is going to Galatasaray permanently. They're trying to work that deal now. My point, I was going to round off on both of those, was to say
00:38:22
Speaker
You can't pin your promotion new squad hopes on players that failed in the Premier League and hope that it's much better this time, especially when you've now gone down a similar route manager rise, so they're probably going to have to play in a similar style to the one that didn't work for the last time. I know that's looking ahead, because we're not even in the playoffs at the moment, but I think that when it comes to problems at the top,
00:38:48
Speaker
And when it comes to a plan, they're the things that concern me the most around a more medium term Norwich City future, which is, I believe Wagner can get us out of this division. It took him a season and a half at Huddersfield. He came in a bit earlier in the season and then he did it in the second season there.
00:39:06
Speaker
If he takes us up next year with a mostly new squad, which he probably would have to be, great. That's fantastic. But my concern is we need to see that massive uptick. And until we have a message or a plan or a different feeder club or news from the investors that means, do you know what, we're actually going to spend some money and we're going to get some tanks with the wheels still on, then only then do I think it's even worth going up. Because otherwise, it could be similar.
00:39:36
Speaker
Any comments on all that? I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, Thomas. That really is. I think coming back to head coach not being the silver bullet and, you know, you firmly pinning that on, well, look, the issue is recruitment. Yeah, of course, recruitment is a massive issue. But I think what the club lost and I don't know where along the way we lost it is the culture that had been, that had bedded in so well and people had cultivated for
00:40:05
Speaker
a good couple of years. 2018-19, I said it on this pod before, they were at pains at the end of that season to go, it's really easy when you're winning, our culture is going to be tested now, we all need to stay together, fans, journos. We attended a dinner at the club, I think, which might have been early on in that Premier League season. We all need to be in the same room, on board with the same plan, and we all need to be together.
00:40:34
Speaker
When did that stop happening? When did someone just go, do you know what, don't like the fans that much and the local boys are pissing us off. So let's just divert from that because we never got told it. And then that's the thing is I think so.
00:40:49
Speaker
culture and communication needs to improve because there's a lot to like at this football club in terms of infrastructure. There's a lot to like in terms of the way in which we go about our business with engaging with the community, certainly with regards to the CSF.
Fan Engagement and Club Culture Restoration
00:41:06
Speaker
There used to be a lot to like about the way in which we communicated with our fans, we engaged with our fans, and the fans got behind the team. And that started again. I think, you know, City Elite have done a grand job in terms of galvanizing home support with the drum. That should be the start of a process. That was driven, and it has been acknowledged, as I understand it, by senior people within the football club as a real positive.
00:41:28
Speaker
You know, that kind of thing needs to start to happen again. We need to start to look at, you know, from an along-come-nourish perspective, how we can supplement that with really brilliant displays, again, you know, kind of in the Barclay and beyond. But, you know, equally, you know, wider to that, fans need to feel part of the process again because they haven't for so very long.
00:41:48
Speaker
And it kind of pissed me off a bit. The attitude was, oh, well, we're doing it like every other football club does it in the Premier League. And this regression to, oh, let's be like everyone else. But it's not very Norfolk. And also, you've shown us what good looks like. So don't stop doing that now. So I think that for me is probably
00:42:10
Speaker
the biggest issue with what everyone has felt so detached from this from this club for so long and I think the more I think about it David Wagner hopefully gets that and will have been told that and the head coach is one of them you know most important people when it comes to connection with the football team so if
00:42:30
Speaker
If he's on board with that, if he gives time to the locals, maybe if he gives time to supporters, be it fans forums, podcasts, whatever kind of media that he's going to choose to do, an engagement in that perspective.
00:42:45
Speaker
it could start to look really positive again, regardless of whether we make top six or not. That for me doesn't concern me at all at this stage, whether we're top six or not at the end of the season. What concerns me is that we have our football club back in the guise that we loved it.
00:43:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's falling back in love, isn't it? That's what we need and that's what the club need commercially before season ticket renewal deadline. Never seen so many people waving about it. This is a tiny anecdote in terms of it's such a small thing.
00:43:19
Speaker
I was pissed off about how much I paid for parking for the game, for the Watford game. And it's never even occurred to me that I would spend money on City Centre parking for a Norwich game, right? It would never occur to me to be annoyed by it because...
00:43:35
Speaker
Any, almost any costs associated with Norwich, not to sound, you know, la di da. I mean, I don't mean thousands of pounds, but I mean, it's just like any match they cost is just so baked into my budget that that's what I just, it sort of struck me as I was driving home. I was like, wow.
00:43:52
Speaker
It doesn't cost the same amount for ages, but I'm bemoaning and thinking, what could I have spent those few pounds on that instead I spent having my car somewhere so I could watch that shit? And I just thought, what's happened to me? How far have I come? And that's to your point about showing us how good good is. It took a good 18 months of getting us to what good is like and really building that momentum with the manager and understanding it.
00:44:20
Speaker
to your point about he takes a real lead role, he's the only one with a metronomic twice, sometimes even three times a week, three times in seven days, he's got the opportunity to tell the fans something and put a message across a minimum of two a week.
00:44:35
Speaker
Um, and so he's the only one really at the football club with that relationship with, with the press. Therefore he's got the most immediate relationship. He's got, obviously, you know, you've got the program notes, but being able to have your voice heard and get sound bites out into the, into the Norfolk public on the reg. He's the only person really with that. So, but I think the club can choose to do more. So the club has chosen not to do more. That's really hurt us.
00:45:01
Speaker
Part of me thinks that the reason they didn't supplement what Smith was doing is because it would have made Smith look even worse. Do you know what I mean? If they're almost having to pick up the slack and put out the person who runs the office and the person who waters the plants at colony and grows the veg,
00:45:22
Speaker
then because at least then someone's talking to the fans, then it shows what vacuum has been created by how little personality Dean Smith has managed to get across to us. If Wagner continues the way that, again, this is me reading up on it and obviously spending far more time in the last 24 hours reading up on what he was like as a manager than I ever really knew before, it does seem like that is way more the type of guy we're getting.
00:45:52
Speaker
I believe that City Elite have done a brilliant job with the drum and finally getting that approved after showing what difference it can make to await atmospheres until basically the football meant that even that didn't work. Likewise, ourselves, my football writer and the local press all need to be
00:46:16
Speaker
feeling positive about there is an opportunity to really get part of a movement towards something positive again. Now, I still think that there's enough time for that to be bedded in and have results. We probably need to get lucky in the next two or three games whilst
00:46:31
Speaker
the fitness standards are going up and tactics going in. You know, we might need a penalty here and there. We might need a couple of teams to have an off day, but you know, we've, we've got enough games in those 20 against teams around us. Um, that we are still totally in control of our own fate. Absolutely got enough time. I just don't think it'll happen.
00:46:51
Speaker
I think there's too much turnaround. Yeah, it's perfectly logical, but in terms of how much turnaround is, I only ever really care about the points when it comes to the league table. And what I don't want is I don't want to reverse into the playoffs under Smith and get dispatched 4-0, 4-0 in two legs against a good team.
00:47:10
Speaker
you know, what I would rather do is go into the lottery of the playoffs with the momentum and with knowing how we're going to turn up and a feeling of which, if we fail this time, we're a bit miffed that Weber made the right change, but at the wrong time, but hey, look, we're going places and I can't wait to go at this. I can't wait for him to get 46 games next season in case you think how much the place will be bouncing come August if we, you know, so there is an opportunity now to really, really wrap up this season.
00:47:39
Speaker
But then again, we're only, we're just over halfway, you know, talking about wrapping up a season, but we've still got nearly half left. I think there's a lot of twists and turns to come, but have I managed to talk you up from, what was it, six out of 10, up to seven at least? No, no, no, I'm a six, and look, do you know what, I nearly said four or five, because I was completely under, I was completely, no, but like, that's just average, that's middle of the road, isn't it? No, no, no, no, no, everyone knows that average is six.
00:48:03
Speaker
All right, well then, there you go. Look, I said six, but I just think, yeah, do you know what, meh? I'm underwhelmed by it. Could be brilliant. Could be really amazing. And I want it to be. Could just be really meh. And, you know, we get more of the same as to what he's done in his last two managerial students. If you're listening to this, send us a message on the socials, either a six or seven, an eight, a nine or a 10. You can go one to five as well, but I don't think that many people can be one to five. There'll be more than you think.
00:48:31
Speaker
Not long come no listeners. I don't think yeah. Oh, I think so. Oh you think so dear? Okay? I'm not gonna not gonna stick to any quid on it. No, okay. No, we've done our 20 quid and Anyway, fine. Look, it's a new dawn. It is the Wagner rock era and and the merch will be on its way We will be back to discuss
00:48:51
Speaker
how potentially the first game has gone, depending on how long he gets. If it's one of those things where he's in the stands watching because they don't unveil him until Friday or whatever, then, yeah, we may not get around the microphones. But we'll be back soon to discuss what Wagner football looks like, and hopefully dissect a really exciting first press conference where he lays out all the reasons that we're about to go on a promotion charge. Mike, there you go.