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With Jason Lane
148 Plays1 year ago
Today on PEP Talk we hear from a ministry leader helping to train, equip and release other missional leaders across Europe and Central Asia. Although his earliest experience was one of rejection and lack of support, today he has some amazing insight into what coming alongside gospel workers looks like. The lessons learned can help us no matter what our context for sharing Christ is today.
Jason Lane founded Innovista, aged 26, to equip leaders and teams to change their communities with the hope of Jesus. He holds an MDiv in Theology and Leadership from Bethel Seminary having graduated in Business Management. The practical, experiential and insightful training experiences developed by Jason and his team have been translated into ten languages and deployed in more than twenty countries. In his free time Jason enjoys windsurfing (badly) and good coffee. He lives with his wife Rachel, daughter and dog in Oxford, UK.
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Transcript
Introduction to Peptalk Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another exciting edition of Peptalk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from Solas and I'm joined by my usual wonderful co-host, Christy Mayer, North London. Christy, how are you doing today?
00:00:26
Speaker
Doing well, thank you. The usual wonderful. Thank you very much. That's very kind. We were saying on the previous show, I think we've done over a hundred of these now. And I used to set myself the challenge of trying to find different adjectives at the same time. And the thesaurus is bare, but there we are. Thanks.
Guest Introduction: Jason Lane from Innovista
00:00:45
Speaker
Well, we have a wonderful guest for folks today on the pep talk podcast. We are joined by Jason Lane, who's coming to us from Oxford today. Jason, how are you doing? Very well. Good to be with you. Brilliant. So Jason, you head up an organization called Innovista.
Innovista's Mission and Origins
00:01:03
Speaker
So rather me trying to summarize what you guys do, because it's quite an impressive description. Why don't you tell us a bit about Innovista? What is it you folks do and why are you excited about it?
00:01:14
Speaker
So InnerVista identifies, equips and develops missional leaders in challenging contexts. So we work across Europe, the former Soviet Union, from Ireland to places like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. And we're particularly focused on places where Christians are under pressure, often experiencing persecution, where resources are really small.
00:01:38
Speaker
And we're there through our national teams to equip leaders who want to communicate and demonstrate the great news about Jesus to their communities. It sounds like a fantastic vision, Jason. How did this come about? What is the origin of Innovista?
00:01:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think the start was actually my own experience growing up. So I was dragged along to church from when I, you know, as young as I could remember. And the way I would describe the experience was Jesus sounded absolutely amazing. And church was terrible. And I couldn't put the two together.
00:02:16
Speaker
I used to pass the time in the church services, seeing if I could hold my breath for a minute, watching the clock above the preacher's head. It was just dire. So I got to sort of 16, bailed on church. And at the same time, a friend of mine came to real faith in Christ, started to change. Every time I'd asked him what was going on, he'd say, Jesus is changing my life. And I'd say, oh, can't be Jesus because then I've got to do church.
00:02:44
Speaker
So I basically wrestled with this for a few years, came to the conclusion that Jesus was the real deal and I'd have to figure out church. So I went back to this church and went to the elders and basically said,
00:02:59
Speaker
can we mobilize all these young people in the church to serve the community? I knew that I discovered great news. I knew that it should be communicated to everyone. And the elders said, well, we need to think about it. And they disappeared for six months and came back to me, called me into a meeting and said, we thought and prayed. And the answer is no. And I was utterly shocked.
Advice for Church Leaders on Youth Engagement
00:03:23
Speaker
And when I asked them why, they said, you're too young.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I was sort of 16-ish, 17. And I look back on that and I actually think that was the beginning of my passion to raise missional leaders because I was, you know, of course I had so much to learn, but I wasn't given an opportunity or any support. I was just told no, and that seems like a real waste.
00:03:49
Speaker
It does, doesn't it? And I think the other thing I love about that, well, love, I mean, tragic what you went through, but love about your energy there is that I think young people so often that's the case, right? They have the vision, they have the energy, they have the ensues as I'm in spades.
00:04:04
Speaker
What a lack of experience. So perhaps one question straight away, which might be interesting for folks listening to this, what then happened that went well? Because obviously the story didn't end there with you squash like a beetle. And that was the end of it. Obviously you found some way of coming up, getting folks to come alongside you and help you with that. So what, I suppose, what advice would you have to church leaders listening to this? You've got similarly enthusiastic young people in their churches. How can we get behind that energy and channel it, channel it well rather than squish it?
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, that is the question. And I think the answer is support and encouragement and honest feedback. So get alongside young people who have a vision, however sort of raw it is, and however unformed they may be, and back them with your time, back them with your
00:04:59
Speaker
encouragement and opportunity for ministry because leadership is fundamentally learned by doing. Young leaders need the opportunity to do, but they need some guardrails. That's primarily in the form of relationships with older, more experienced leaders who can encourage what they do well, point out the stuff that they need to improve,
00:05:30
Speaker
and encourage them to keep going. And that's what I wasn't given. So I ended up leaving that church and going to a church up the road where they put me into youth ministry and said, we see something in you. And the senior pastor of this church said, I'm just going to give you a shot, but I'm going to walk with you.
00:05:51
Speaker
And that's what happened and young people came to faith and I grew loads in the process because this wonderful man called Norman would take the time to say, okay, look, that was great, but you really need to do that a bit differently and here's why. And that process over time is the way to grow the next generation of leaders.
00:06:18
Speaker
That's speechless in some ways, really. Just thinking about what you've just shared and how we go about growing that next generation of leaders, what does it look like multiplying that across the many countries that you serve in?
Innovista's Impact in Uzbekistan
00:06:33
Speaker
How do you practically do that in places like Uzbekistan and other former Soviet countries?
00:06:43
Speaker
What does that look like? It's a small question for you there. Yeah, fundamentally it looks like finding the right people. So I'll just tell you the story of Uzbekistan.
00:07:01
Speaker
We've been working in Ukraine for almost 20 years, and one of our Ukrainian staff, we always work through nationals, so this isn't about me jetting into another place and doing training. Our model is about raising national leaders and
00:07:20
Speaker
raising leaders who will train other leaders. Our Ukrainian colleague had a lot of experience in Central Asia, so we moved her to Uzbekistan for a year with one goal, which was to find an Uzbek national that she thought our future ministry in that country could be built on. She went and lived there with her husband, and they spent the year just
00:07:49
Speaker
getting to know local churches. They had a lot of connections already. She actually went with one person in mind and then came across a remarkable woman that we call Medina. We can't go public with her real name for security reasons.
00:08:05
Speaker
got to know Medina deeply over the period of 9 or 10 months and basically concluded that Medina could be the person to be our lead trainer in Uzbekistan. Medina had a real vision to grow younger leaders, so we started pouring into Medina to enable her to start training and mentoring in her own context.
00:08:30
Speaker
Medina today is leading her own team of Uzbek nationals who are growing leaders across the entire country in some really tough places. Later this evening, we have an Uzbek couple coming to join us for dinner here in Oxford.
00:08:50
Speaker
The guy is here doing a PhD and he is part of the fruits of Medina's ministry in Uzbekistan. So it's really wonderful to see that sort of model of deep relationships, you know, investment through relationships, replicating time and again.
00:09:11
Speaker
Now I'm, I'm, I'm conscious that, you know, in a, in a short form podcasts like this to go deeply in some of this user is a challenge. I'm very conscious this, this question is going to sound desperately sort of broad in a sense, um, that I know you're, you're a pro. So let's give it a crack. What are.
00:09:27
Speaker
What are some of the major challenges that I suppose you see in the sort of young leaders in places like Uzbekistan or where else that you really need to work into?
Challenges for Young Leaders Globally
00:09:36
Speaker
I mean, obviously the context is so tough as the persecution that we can't begin to think about here in the UK. I've got no concept of what that's like. Is it mainly those things or are there other issues that you're finding that you're really have to put the time into in terms of growing and discipling and maturing leaders who can lead well in those contexts?
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think the answer to that is some of the issues are exactly the same everywhere and some are contextual. So the issues are the same, are the need to grow deep character, courage and skill.
00:10:17
Speaker
So what often happens in the church world is that because we rightly put so much emphasis on character, we sometimes miss the skill and we need both. I'm sure we've all experienced leaders who are full of integrity but lacking skill and that really limits progress.
00:10:42
Speaker
So character and skill together, character is core, but it's not everything. And then the courage to create and innovate and push forward with ways of demonstrating and communicating the gospel in ways that make sense in their context.
00:11:03
Speaker
And as you said, Andy, context is very different comparing here as an example with Central Asia. In Central Asia, you're dealing with issues like grinding poverty. So there's a very big challenge with young leaders leaving the country.
00:11:23
Speaker
because they have to feed their families and there's no work. So we have to think about how to meet that kind of challenge. How do you witness for Christ in a context where you can be thrown into prison? What does that look like? What does it look like to live distinctively as a follower of Jesus when corruption is rampant and expected? Someone said to me on a call earlier this week,
00:11:52
Speaker
about another country in Asia, we cannot do anything here without paying a bribe. How do you respond to that as a follower of Jesus? So some of the issues are the same character, courage, integrity, others are context specific. And that's why we work through national leaders and trainers because they know their context. They love their context and their people and their best place to figure out an appropriate response.
00:12:21
Speaker
Jason, could you share with us an example of that from maybe a community that you're closely, that you've been closely involved with in training and in reaching others in that context? What does this look like for you? And maybe just kind of what might be some practical tips maybe, or just theological pointers, just to encourage listeners in the difficult context that they might be in as well, thinking about the character and skills. How do
00:12:51
Speaker
how do we go about serving the communities in which God has placed us? So yeah, I'd just love to hear some of your own experiences of that and what that's looked like for you. Yeah. Well, let me share another story from Uzbekistan that I've seen sort of up close and personal and then
00:13:09
Speaker
talk about some of the application. There's a people group in Uzbekistan called the Luli people. And they're the poorest of the poor. They are discriminated against at every turn. And a large number of this people group live on a rubbish dump outside of the capital of Uzbekistan. And they survive by picking plastic bottles. And a pioneering
00:13:35
Speaker
church planter had a vision to reach them. And he contacted our team in Uzbekistan and asked if we'd support them in that process. And what that's looked like in practice is deep listening to the community to understand how they were experiencing life.
00:13:59
Speaker
So not assuming that the pastor or RT knew, but by asking questions and listening and spending time with them. And that led to an approach to planting church and sharing the gospel and now an education project because this people group can't access education. So some of them have been taught how to read and write for the first time.
00:14:28
Speaker
And now some of the women are being trained so that they can run businesses. So the community is being transformed and that's come from listening. And I think that's the foundational principle is let's commit to deeply understanding the people we want to reach, not assuming we know what they need, not assuming we know the answers, but listening to them as people made in the image of God.
00:14:58
Speaker
with dignity and as people that God deeply loves. And I think if we start there, we're much more likely to understand and spot authentic inroads for the gospel. The gospel is relevant for everyone, but the ways in are different. And I think sometimes we don't take the time, maybe out of our urgency,
00:15:26
Speaker
and we don't take the time to really listen and find the inroads. So I think that's my starting point. Listen and listen to people. I think what I like about that, Jason, that's a very transferable lesson, actually, if you're working with people that say in Uzbekistan in grinding poverty, or if you're working with trying to reach your next door neighbor across the back fence in North Oxford, starting trying to find out where they're at rather than assume. And on that very theme, actually, one thing that's long
00:15:56
Speaker
interested me is, it's very easy as a Western Christian to look at what's going on in Uzbekistan or Ukraine or China, all those countries where it's hard, tough to be a Christian because of poverty or persecution. And we can always end up feeling superior. We're the ones that need to be praying for them, we're the ones that need to be helping them, they're the weaker brother. So I've got older, I've begun to rather... Actually, that's not necessarily, it's more complex than that. And in particular, I often begin to wonder whether we're missing the fact that there are huge lessons that we can learn from them in terms of our
00:16:27
Speaker
And the fact that you're nodding suggests that you've seen similar things going on. So perhaps I'll turn the conversation a fractionally slightly different direction. As you've worked and had the privilege of working with and Christians in these kind of countries, what are some of the lessons that you've learned that's made you reflect on how you go about sharing your faith as a Brit with your neighbors, people you run across every day in Oxford? What are some of the lessons we can learn from the persecuted church and apply here in our Western settings, do you think?
Identity in Christ and Leadership Courage
00:16:58
Speaker
I think that the fundamental lesson that I've learned from my colleagues and friends in places like Central Asia is just the foundation of knowing who you are in Christ, knowing what your identity is that you are unconditionally loved, that your life is secure in Christ. And when that really penetrates the heart rather than just sitting in the head,
00:17:26
Speaker
That just changes everything. That's actually what enables courage and risk taking in the right sense of the word and the ability to be persecuted and genuinely count it as blessing for the sake of the gospel. So that's what they have in spades. They just know that they belong to Jesus.
00:17:56
Speaker
And my own experience is that when I am not only clear on that in my head, but experiencing that in my heart and life, then I am more able to share my faith with courage and take risks and not feel so threatened when people criticise or give me a hard time because I know where I'm rooted.
00:18:25
Speaker
That's the key lesson I've learned from them. That's really lovely, Jason. What do you think it looks like? I think we can probably all listening to this and for us here as well just think, gosh, yeah, we all want to be rooted in that kind of steadfast love of Jesus. How do you equip
00:18:49
Speaker
and the people that you're working with and that you're facilitating to reach those communities to be kind of serving from that position of steadfastness. And in your own life, how can we cultivate and stay rooted? Yeah, that is such a great question. And I think the answer is a little more complex than sometimes we
00:19:15
Speaker
we suggest. So there is, of course, a core around our own walk with Jesus and our grappling with Scripture and particularly meditating on Scripture so that it goes deep
00:19:33
Speaker
So, in one of our training programs, we spend a chunk of time looking at Mark 1 and Jesus' baptism and what the Father speaks over Jesus at the start of His public ministry, and the challenge to us as leaders of serving out of knowing in the Bible sense, so it's not just head in the Bible, it's knowing in a way that changes what you do.
00:19:58
Speaker
knowing that you are deeply loved children of God. So there's the sort of spiritual formation part, if you like, which we tend to in the West make individual and it should be communal. So a huge part of it is being in community with a small group of like-minded followers of Jesus who can encourage you and challenge you and remind you about the mission of God and our invitation to be part of that.
00:20:28
Speaker
and where we are. I think those two things together are essential. And then I think the third thing is having some mentors in your life who are just further ahead than you, who can challenge you out of a place of both being deeply committed to you, but also not being too impressed with you.
00:20:50
Speaker
So they can say, you know what, that just wasn't very cool and you need to do this differently. Mentors are hugely important. Honestly, I dread to think where I'd be without a bunch of mentors in my life, they've made a huge difference and I'd encourage everyone to pursue that kind of relationship as well.
00:21:14
Speaker
That's great advice, Jason, to come to an end.
Episode Conclusion and Further Resources
00:21:18
Speaker
The other thing that struck me as you were responding to Christie there, the other thing that interests me, you mentioned that individual versus communal part. One of the things I think is also crucial linking this back to where you began with your story of what happened for you with loving Jesus and struggling with the church.
00:21:33
Speaker
One thing we're realizing, my wife and I's parents are about 10 year old and eight year old, is that actually you could end up, Western Christians can have a very disconnected from the wider global church.
00:21:43
Speaker
both around the world and historically. And I think as a big part of discipling for the people listening to this, if you've got young kids or teens in your, in your home, get them realizing they're part of this global church that spans China, Korea, you know, the other side of the world, and then backwards through time. Because if you think that church is just you
00:22:04
Speaker
and the preacher and how holding your breath and counting to get through sermons. No wonder people walk away, but if you go, okay, church is tough this morning, but I also know I want to hold it together and follow faithfully because I'm part of this global community of people who've got life much tougher. So actually getting plugged in is great for our own walk with Christ too, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:26
Speaker
So there's been a fascinating conversation, Jason. We've covered huge, huge amounts and hugely appreciate your taking the time. So how can people find out more about Innovista? What's the best place for them to go? Is there a website somewhere like that where they can go and find out about all the great work you're doing?
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah, best place is innovista.org. So there's stories and opportunity to sign up for our latest news, which comes straight from exciting places like Uzbekistan and Ukraine. So innovista.org and go from there.
00:22:58
Speaker
innovator.org it is, and we will also put a link in the show notes. So if you forgot, if by the time you finished your run, your drive, your, you know, wherever you are listening to this podcast, you can't remember that website, just click the show, look in the show notes, click the link and dig into all those great resources and stories Jason there mentioned. So Jason, once again, thanks for being on pep talk. It's been great to have you today.
00:23:17
Speaker
Thanks so much. I've loved it. Thank you. And Christy and I are back in a couple of weeks time with a fresh episode and a different guest. So do tune in. Thanks for tracking with us. Thanks for all of you who listen to the show and support the show. And we'll see you again in two weeks time. Bye for now.