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The Atheist Who Didn't Exist (with Andy Bannister)
2 Playsin 16 hours
In the mid 2010's, New Atheism was busy producing best-selling books and plastering adverts on the sides of buses. Its loud scepticism is not as popular these days, but many of its arguments live on. What has changed and how can we respond a decade later? Andy Bannister explores this in his revised and expanded book, The Atheist Who Didn't Exist, for a 10th anniversary edition. He speaks to Gavin Matthews and Simon Wenham about what's new what's interesting about the state of atheism today.
Get a free copy of the book when you sign up to support Solas for just £4 a month. https://solas-cpc.org/book-offer/
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. I'm Gavin Matthews, and every fortnight we're on here, we're talking about sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with the world that needs him.
Guest Introduction: Simon Wenham and Andy Bannister
00:00:22
Speaker
Now, my my partner in crime today is Simon Wenham joining us from the other end of the UK. Simon, how are you?
00:00:28
Speaker
Very well, thanks. It's lovely to be here and very excited about today's guest. We've done very well to get him on the show. So I'm looking excited. It's been struggle, but the budget stretched.
Andy's Sabbatical Experience in North America
00:00:37
Speaker
We are welcoming our director at Solus, Andy Bannister, onto the show today. Andy, how are you?
00:00:41
Speaker
I am doing doing really well, Gavin. And very weird actually to be on on kind of this side of the conversation. Normally I'm used to co-presenting Pep Talk and and here I am as the as the guest. So I hope I don't feel the pressure to ask myself questions. so do Do feel free. But you're just back from North America, aren't you? Just back in the UK ready to speak to us today. I am indeed. So yeah, we had an amazing opportunity as family. um So that's very kindly, gave me um a sabbatical. It's been 15 years of itinerant ministry without a break. so um So yeah, we went to North America. We lived in North America for for six years. Canada ah was home
Celebrating 'The Atheists Who Didn't Exist' Anniversary
00:01:15
Speaker
for six years. So we were able to go back and see lots of old friends and
00:01:18
Speaker
family show the kids where they were born and then uh just do also some speaking across the country and then the highlight was going and seeing 12 national parks lots of historical sites and uh and sort of crisscrossing um north america both the usa and and canada it's an amazing amazing trip and so that's why all listeners can't see this i'm sporting at a sort of very un-bridish suntan at the moment on to Absolutely. im I can sort of vouch for that anyway. Yes, ah your suntan, that is.
00:01:46
Speaker
But it's great to have you back with us. We're featuring today a very special ah milestone, which is the the book, The Atheists Who Didn't Exist, which Andy is actually holding up at the moment. and This is
Motivation Behind Writing the Book
00:01:58
Speaker
the 10th anniversary edition, and it's also been translated in a number of languages too.
00:02:03
Speaker
And we'd love just to say a little bit, hear hear from you a little bit more about ah why you wrote the book. I suppose it would be helpful just to go back in the past. So obviously it's been 10 years since you wrote the book.
00:02:15
Speaker
Can you say a little bit about why you chose to write the book yeah and and what the cultural climate was at that point? So yes, if we have some sort of timey-wimey sound effects, to think I saw back to 2014 when the world was young.
00:02:27
Speaker
And so, yeah, basically when I wrote the book back in back in the mid-2010s, we were still at the height, Simon, of the so-called new atheism. That was the label that had been coined to describe people like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Chris Hitchens, there there were others um who had really taken atheism from obscure, sort of slightly slightly nerdy kind of basement obsession to the mainstream. um They had written books that were selling millions of copies. They were on chat shows. They were all over the internet.
00:02:56
Speaker
Suddenly, atheism was cool and hip and trendy. was even atheist adverts on the side of buses. And Christians, throw it for some time, we were on a bit of a back foot I'm
00:03:11
Speaker
zeitgeistie kind of skepticism and i watched that happening and i particularly watched christians writing really good responses there were great books coming out responding to new atheism but something for me felt missing And I think what I felt was missing was that the reason that the new atheism worked is the arguments were terrible. And we may come to some of that.
00:03:31
Speaker
But the writing was brilliant. You know, Dawkins can spin a paragraph. He's a very gifted wordsmith. And found myself thinking we're making a mistake here as Christians and that we're trying to respond to style and presentation purely with argument. Now, need to use our argument. of course you do.
00:03:47
Speaker
But actually, the reason those books were doing well is they were zippy and they were energetic and they were fun to read. So I thought, I wonder whether it's possible to write a response to the New Atheism that tries to respond partly in kind.
Impact and Reception of the Book
00:03:59
Speaker
that that Yes, it's got some content and some substance, but actually uses, you know in my case, my style is kind of humor and wit and a bit sparkle to try to get people who were not Christians to actually read a Christian response to the New Atheism. and So that was the birth of the atheist who didn't exist.
00:04:16
Speaker
And I was kind of amazed that kind of worked, really. It was the first time I tried writing a book. um And, you know, amazingly, I think the first edition of the book did something like about 20,000, 25,000 copies. It kind of took off and and got into places where other books didn't. And and I say in the sort closing notes to this updated edition i'm most excited simon over the years the emails i've had from people who wrote to tell me they were able to give that book to atheist friends and family that no other book seemed to do it um and that to me warmed my heart that was that was the that was the purpose and i'm excited to some extent it succeeded i think i hope
00:04:57
Speaker
And 10 years have gone past
The Decline of New Atheism
00:04:59
Speaker
and we've all changed. We were looking a bit older and a bit grayer than we did in 2014. You speak for yourself, but that's fine. Oh, I'm freely speaking for myself. i I'm kind of assuming that but the same is true of you. The atheism, though, how has atheism changed in 10 years? How does the atheist landscape look different? I'm not thinking particularly, I suppose, about the the demographic. You get the impression that atheists tend to be old, middle-aged men, and there's more atheism than you get if you've got a bunch of students.
00:05:24
Speaker
Is that right? And then how do we respond? Yeah, yeah, but that absolutely. i mean, that was always the case, actually. The New Atheism was predominantly a male movement. I mean, look at the four so-called four horsemen of the New Atheism I named a moment ago. You know, Dennett, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens.
00:05:39
Speaker
they're They're all men. There were some women kicking around, but not not nearly as many and were not making the the impact that the guys were. and And then sort of, you know, you'd go to atheist conventions and you'd look around the room and go, yeah, there is definitely a lot more men.
00:05:55
Speaker
ah in this room. There's a whole ah series of reasons why that is and stuff being written about it. What's changed, though, in 10 years, I would say, is this. The new atheism is dead. you know If you're any Monty Python fans, it's like it's like the debt is' like the parrot. It is no more. It is ah it has ah gone down the curtains and joint climbed up the curtains and joined the choir celestial.
Gen Z's Spiritual Curiosity
00:06:13
Speaker
movement um Practically, that's in some cases some of its its its proponents died. So Chris Hitchens was the first of the New Atheists to die. Daniel Dennett died, I think, last year. so So Daniel and Christopher are now doing empirical research into the God question.
00:06:27
Speaker
um Sam Harris has sort of gone full-fat Buddhist almost. He's become a mindfulness podcaster and writing books on spirituality and actually winding up some of his former fans who think that he's a bit too religion-adjacent.
00:06:42
Speaker
And then... daw ah Dawkins went through this phase of winding up everybody. So he went up he moved from winding up Christians to tweeting things about Down syndrome and politically can incorrect things on gender identity. And he got his Humanists of the ward a Year award removed ah by a big secular organization. So he went through that phase. And now he's come out the other side and he's now declared he's a cultural Christian.
00:07:03
Speaker
And that although he doesn't think Christianity is true, he deeply appreciates it. He thinks it's added lots of society and would hate to see a society... without it. So that's happened. And then as you describe, what's happened is a younger generation have emerged, who I think have looked at the new atheism and gone, yeah, you're a bunch of old granddads, actually. And actually, it turns out if you remove God, you don't solve some of the big problems out there.
00:07:26
Speaker
And then big problems hit, didn't they? We had COVID, we had financial crashes, we had war and in in the Middle East and Ukraine, ah chaos everywhere. And atheism offers no answers. so Now scroll forward to the current generation, Gavin.
00:07:40
Speaker
You've got some people, have some surveys have suggested that particularly here in the UK and Europe, and i but I saw this in Canada and the USA too, that Gen Z, so those are the guys born between 1997 and 2006. I think that's the the the range. um They are, according to some studies, the most ah spiritual ah generation we've had for a long time.
00:08:01
Speaker
They don't identify as atheists. They're not all identifying as Christian. They're identifying as spiritual, but not religious. They're asking religious questions. They're trying church out. 21% of young men in the UK now attend church once a month, which is an astonishing statistic.
Cultural and Spiritual Landscape Shifts
00:08:16
Speaker
um The Bible Society put out a thing called The Quiet Revival, a report called The Quiet Revival, a few months ago digging into this trend. In fact, we had one of the authors of that on on the Pep Talk podcast.
00:08:26
Speaker
So there's a lot going on. Now, the questions the new atheism raised and some of the arguments, they're still around. So as Christians, we need to engage with those. But boy, has the landscape changed.
00:08:38
Speaker
Thank you. I suppose that then begs the question of if if new atheism is a busted flush, or at least yeah the sort of main proponents are no longer with us, how, as Christians, do we distinguish between those kinds of Christians and their kinds of arguments and perhaps a sort of new form of atheism that many more people might hold today, whether or not they would call it atheism?
00:08:59
Speaker
Well, think a couple of things are going on there, aren't they, um Simon? And one thing that I think illustrates that trend, if you take one of the most influential kind of atheists today, take Alex O'Connor, a.k.a. Cosmic Skeptic, um who you can't on YouTube, you know, he's gone from a few years ago, i mean, spitting, you know, just venom at religion, actually, to now saying quite nice things about it. He doesn't believe it, but he's very positive and he's very, you know, open about the fact that he thinks that actually we need to answer the question.
00:09:25
Speaker
you know the meaning questions and other kind of things so that journey that he's been on is interesting so i'd say a couple of things if we're engaging older older older folks by which older i mean sort of 35 to 40 and above you gavin you touched at this yeah hinted at this you may still find people are like oh yeah the new atheism and we need to be ready to say okay let's let's talk about that a little bit and So knowing the story of what happened and why why that movement collapsed, as we cover in the book, I think is quite helpful.
00:09:52
Speaker
um Then you'll come across people who will parrot for you some of the new atheist questions. so you might read you know I come across younger people who might be quite open to spirituality, but say, well, you know hang on, Christianity, just a minute. you know Hasn't religion been the cause of all these wars and terrible atrocities and so on? Well, that's the old Dawkins argument, just repackaged in a nicer way.
00:10:10
Speaker
So being able to go, yeah, that's interesting. you know Tell me more about that. Let's talk about that. And being able to engage, I think, can be really, really important. And then I think also for those who are spiritually searching...
00:10:21
Speaker
being able with simon to say, but why why Christianity? Why why Jesus? you know If you're a person who wants to think of yourself as spiritual, you know a lot of people are tempted to go, well, I can just pick anything from the landscape.
00:10:33
Speaker
you know Maybe I'll go and listen to a Sam Harris podcast and dabble in Buddhism. Why should they take Christianity seriously? Why take Jesus seriously? And so I think the chapters in the book that I've got on those kind of questions. I think as I updated them and rewrote them, I thought that's a new that's an ever important question as well.
Supporting Solas and Book Offers
00:10:54
Speaker
We hope that you're enjoying this episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. We're talking about Andy Bannister's new book, the 10th anniversary edition of The Atheist Who Didn't Exist.
00:11:05
Speaker
You can get hold of a copy of that book if you sign up to support Solas for as little as £4 a month. Supporting this podcast and our work in evangelism all around the country. If you go to our website, solas-cpc.org,
00:11:21
Speaker
the bottom right corner, there's a button that says donate. If you click there and sign up to support us from as little as £4 a month, we will send you a brand new copy of The Atheist Who Didn't Exist by Andy Bannister.
Updated Content in the Anniversary Edition
00:11:33
Speaker
Thank you for listening, and now back to the programme.
00:11:39
Speaker
So it was a major rewrite of the book then in the light of the changed landscape. and How much how much ah did you have to actually change and adjust? What's different in round two? Well, it was interesting. where i was I was commenting to to to some of you guys earlier this morning. If you just compare the thickness of the two books, you can't see this watching this, okay? Why am i doing visual installation on an audio-only podcast?
00:11:56
Speaker
It is about 20%, 25% thicker. So, yeah, and practically speaking, what we did when we did the update was there's a whole new forward on there written by a wonderful guy called Andy Kind, who I think, by the way, was our first ever guest on the first ever pep talk.
00:12:09
Speaker
who's a Christian comedian and ah and evangelist. And so, you know, that was great because he's ah he's a Christian communicator. And so he kind of frames the book helpfully. Then there's a new chapter looking at what happened to the new atheism. Why did it fail?
00:12:23
Speaker
And so we asked that question not to get smug and go, ha ha, it went wrong. I think the reasons it went wrong are really compelling, actually. When we're talking with friends who may be older and have been impressed in the past by you know Dawkins or whatever to go, why did that movement fail? I think it failed for some really spiritually significant reasons.
00:12:40
Speaker
There's a massive new chapter at the end looking about this new cultural moment we're in. What's going on spiritually? you know Some have called it a quiet revival. Some have called it a surprising rebirth in belief in God.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah. So we explore those trends. And I think for those readers who are not Christian, hopefully it help them go, hmm, maybe I should think about some things. And for those who are Christian, hopefully it will help you think about how to help your friends think about some things.
00:13:04
Speaker
And then everything in between there, Gavin, has been updated, revised. The jokes have been made 14% funnier, um new illustrations. And the other thing we did is update it with people who've written on atheism,
00:13:16
Speaker
kind of since the last book.
Arguments Against Atheism
00:13:18
Speaker
And actually, to me, one of the big finds, who I didn't include last time, there's a wonderful, if that's the right word, American atheist philosopher called Alex Rosenberg, who as ri wrote a book just around the time the last edition of my book came out, called The Atheist's Guide to Reality.
00:13:33
Speaker
And it was interesting, Christian reviewers said, Alex has accidentally written the best apologetic for atheism in a long time, because it's so bleak. He is not afraid. Dawkins tried and the other new atheists, I think, tried to have their cake and eat it.
00:13:47
Speaker
And so you can throw God out, but you can still have meaning and happiness and morality and rainbows and unicorns and kittens. And here's Alex coming and going, no, there's no meaning. No, there's no truth. No, nothing matters. Everything is rubbish.
00:13:58
Speaker
um it's all dark It's all dark despair. And so Alex is a brilliant find. So I engage with him a bit in the book. And he's helpful for Christians. And to have those kind of quotes to hand in a book like this one, you know When you're talking to friends down the pub or at work, wherever, to say, hey, I read this atheist who said, and then just drop a little bit of Alex on them and go, what do you think?
00:14:17
Speaker
And when they probably go to you, man, that's bleak. like yeah yeah I agree with you. Why do you think it's bleak?
Using Humor to Engage Readers
00:14:24
Speaker
and and And you're away. Well, one thing you have perhaps produced an antidote to that, because you obviously the book itself is designed to be humorous. I found it very, very funny, I must say.
00:14:36
Speaker
I'm one of these people that I look with a bit of c so cynicism when I see someone laughing away, reading reading a book, say, on a train or something. But this really, really was good. and And some of the titles reflect that. You have the postmodern penguin. That was my personal favourite chapter.
00:14:50
Speaker
The Loch Ness Monster's Moustache. The aardvark in the artichokes. And you also say, yes, it's, I think it's 17.2% funnier than the previous. It changes every time. As you know, 19% of statistics are made up on the spot. Absolutely.
00:15:05
Speaker
and so I suppose my question there is, i know this is a way of engaging, but what would you say to someone who would say, ah that might make the argument seem a bit more lightweight. You're just there to entertain.
00:15:17
Speaker
And, you know, if some people see humour in that sort of light, what would you say in response to that? Well, it's interesting that the, the, the, The little pushback I got on that last time was from Christians, actually, not from atheist friends.
00:15:28
Speaker
Because Christians, sometimes we can be too serious-minded for our own good. ah couple of thoughts there. um ah Firstly, the that my the the motivation to use humour in the book came from, actually, c s Lewis.
00:15:42
Speaker
So I came across an essay by C.S. Lewis from you know years ago where he talked about the fact, he he uses his ah illustration where he says you know he realised that the front door to people's minds... are often guarded, as he's put it, by watchful dragons who won't let truth get through the front door. And we've all had experiences, many Christians have had experiences with friends like that. You try and share something and and no, you literally can't get a look in.
00:16:04
Speaker
But Lewis said, I began to wonder whether by using story... And then he went on, obviously, to write the Narnia books and so on. Were they using story? I could tiptoe past the watchful dragons and sneak the truth in.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I think he succeeded very powerfully. I read that thinking, you know, I can't write story. I'm not a storyteller, really, not like not a fiction writer anyway. But I am funny, I think, at least half the time.
00:16:28
Speaker
um I hope. And I found myself thinking, I wonder if you can tickle the dragon under the nose and while it's rolling on the floor laughing, you can just charge through the front door with the truth rather through the side door. And the serious point behind that is I think humour does allow you to get people thinking about things they wouldn't otherwise.
00:16:45
Speaker
That's true whether it's political satire. you know Sometimes a cartoonist in a newspaper, whether it's like Matt in the Daily Telegraph or Steve Bell in The Guardian, sometimes you make a point buy a cartoon that gets people laughing and you get your points across um because they're the people's defenses go down. And I hope what I've managed in the book is to get people laughing. And then while laughing is happening, the serious point goes through. And by the way, that's where the footnotes come in because there are funny footnotes and comedy footnotes because I was a, Terry Pratchett was a big influence on me and Terry liked a comedy footnote.
00:17:17
Speaker
But also there's very serious stuff in there as well. Each chapter ends with recommended reading. So, you know, if you want to go deeper into any of the arguments, there's there's pathways to do that. But then the other thing I'd say to Christians who, you know, raise an eyebrow, ah you know, the the humor I go, we forget that Jesus was was a humorist.
00:17:34
Speaker
We've missed this because we've we've become so used to the Gospels and reading them in a dry, fusty way sometimes. We miss the fact that lines like, you know, a camel through the eye of a needle um was supposed to be funny. The first crowds who heard that would have rolled on the floor laughing because they're going, that's a ludicrous image or straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
00:17:55
Speaker
ah You know, Jesus was actually the king of the one-liner because he is, as a communicator, trying to get to the heart of people. realized and knew that story, number one, and then humor, number two, um is a way of doing that. So as long as you don't ignore the serious truth, you want within the, as it were, you know, use an image for image from confectionery, Ferrero Rocher, right? You've got the chocolatey shell on the outside, which is the humor in the story, but inside you've got the hazelnut of truth.
00:18:25
Speaker
And sometimes people won't take the hazelnut of truth. um My kids certainly won't. But if you wrap it in chocolate and sugarcoat it, ah people will take the nut of truth because you've coated it in metaphor and analogy and humor.
Engaging Functional Atheists with Humor
00:18:40
Speaker
I wonder if the the humor is also a good way of engaging some of the folks that I meet who are maybe not sort of in the new atheist groove of like fully card carrying, signed up humanist or atheist issues.
00:18:51
Speaker
but they're functionally atheists. They might not be kind of card carrying, virulent, in your face atheists, but they live as if there's no God. And as if it was all, you know, you know theoretical and irrelevant to their daily lives.
00:19:03
Speaker
I wonder if humor is a way of engaging some of those people who aren't as militant as some of the folks we met 10 years ago, as say, functional atheists. I think you're right, Gavin. And I think as well, story works powerfully there too. And for but and for people who who didn't read the first edition of the book, which on the one hand, I want to say, where are you? But on the other hand, that's great because that's you all the more reason to buy the second edition in paperback ebook or in due course audiobook available from all good bookstores and bad ones too.
00:19:27
Speaker
Um, The primary way I use in the book, as you'll know, Gavin, is is each chapter starts with ah with a funny story and a funny illustration designed to, A, get you laughing, and B, sometimes, yes, you need to laugh, but sometimes you need to see the issue and and in and and and in ah in a new way.
00:19:44
Speaker
and so like yeah um Simon, you mentioned earlier you know the Penguin chapter. That's one of my favorite chapters too. and and In that book, in that chapter, we're exploring the question of meaning. And the reality is if you, you know, if you don't believe in God, life has no meaning. that it simply It simply doesn't. It's just an accident.
00:20:00
Speaker
Now you just use that as an argument to people. Sometimes people won't take it or they can't see it or whatever, but you skew it sideways and you create a character a little penguin on an ice floe kind of somewhere who's surrounded by other penguins and guano and you know freezing temperatures telling you and of course my life could have meaning of course it can just before they get eaten by passing killer whale and they discover the universe is quite harsh suddenly um suddenly I think you can go oh gosh hang on a minute yeah I am a bit like the penguin, actually, protesting, shouting into the wind that life can have meaning just before the universe drops a rock on me or you know runs me over with the number 73 bus to Peckham.
00:20:37
Speaker
And so sometimes I think you're right, Gavin. If we can come sideways at it and make people see things in a new way, then suddenly there can be like an eye-opening moment. Sometimes as Christians, we can be a little too quick to reduce everything to a soundbite or an argument, which, by the way, is what the New Atheist did.
00:20:53
Speaker
And sometimes we're going to be patient and draw the camera lens back slightly and go, hey, think about this. Think about this story. and now having thought about that story and seen how daft the argument looks inside the world of the story, now do you see what happens if you take the argument out of the story and try and use it in the real world?
Social Media Challenges and Nuanced Engagement
00:21:11
Speaker
What happens? That brings me nicely onto my next question, which is you mentioned the dangers of of argument by soundbite, these kind of catchy slogans or just very simplistic arguments and how they don't you know carry the the weight that that they seem to. you know They may be sound nice, but but don't have that kind of intellectual gravity behind them.
00:21:33
Speaker
I suppose I'm interested to know, do you think that's more of a problem now in in our age sort of some short videos and social media? um and And how do Christians avoid that when we're trying to communicate back at people?
00:21:45
Speaker
On my word, i think yes, and I feel guilty, right? Because I'm someone who spends some of their time on social media. you know I'm on on on and down with the kids on TikTok doing 60-second videos, and I often come away going, it's truth. I mean, that was 60 seconds. You barely got started before you've come to an end.
00:22:01
Speaker
um So yeah, I think there is a danger, and I think the danger is that the biggest danger with soundbites is you caricature. ah That's, I think, why by far one of the the dangers. you You misrepresent your opponent.
00:22:13
Speaker
And Christians got upset when when atheists did it to us. The new atheist movement did this in spades. you know Dawkins was was notorious for, I think, you know throwing out soundbites like religion is the root of all evil, um which is demonstrably, statistically, historically, utterly inept.
00:22:30
Speaker
um But you know it it looks good on Twitter. The danger is Christians, you respond kind of the other way and you come up with some cleverly you know reductionistic tweet about atheism to make atheism look inept and stupid and ridiculous.
00:22:42
Speaker
um I think the question for me is then how do we use those formats? How do we and get how do we make make sure we're present on social media? How do we make sure we're engaging in the conversation? By the way, whether you're listening to this, you're a Christian or you're an atheist who stumbled across this podcast, but then how do we find ways to be perhaps a bit nuanced, to be willing to go, hey, you know here's something to think about, but maybe it's not the whole of the answer, or maybe here's a link to a bigger version of the argument, or maybe just being willing sometimes to just say to somebody, hey, you got a good point, actually. um That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
00:23:13
Speaker
um So I think that's that's the problem. Social media tends to reduce, cause us to simplify and caricature. And by the way, soundbites and social media where the soundbiting often goes on, I think the other danger, Simon, is it can cause us to see the other people as things rather than people. It's very easy to be very, very, very rude to somebody and very dismissive to somebody otherwise.
00:23:34
Speaker
on say X or on, you know, TikTok and a comment that you wouldn't dream of doing in person. um So I think for Christians particularly who are called to love our enemy, and if our enemy is the person who opposes on online, how do we how do we model the fact that we should be treating them as, you know, people made an image of God, even while their arguments may annoy
Encouragement to Read and Share the Book
00:23:54
Speaker
us?
00:23:54
Speaker
And so I think constantly reminding yourself, I'm talking to a human being here, not just a thing, is a great start. Absolutely. So the 10th anniversary edition, the new, all new singing, dancing, and laughing edition of the 80s. I'm not sure it sings and dances, but it does look good in a bookshelf. It does the exist.
00:24:11
Speaker
It's coming out. When does it get released? Which countries is it being released in? And how could people get their grubby hands on an extra copy it? Grubby hands on a copy. well Yes, it comes out on the 17th of July. And of course, this podcast is after the 17th of July. Then it's out. It comes out in the UK on the 17th July.
00:24:26
Speaker
And then a little bit later in the USA and Canada, later into the summer. It's coming out paperback and e-book at first. And then at the end of July, I'm recording the audio book. So for the people who were... I had so many messages after the first one going, where's the audio book? We've heard you and we're doing one.
00:24:43
Speaker
um So you can get it from any good bookstore. um Or I'd recommend go to the Solasker on a website uh on my website andybanister.net and you'll find links to places you can get it the best place to get it by the way if you want the paperback it's 10 of those who are a wonderful christian publisher that are the christian amazon you know jeff bezos has sold enough books to have expensive weddings in venice and get himself into space support a smaller publisher um or um if you're a christian listening to this and you don't already support the work of ah of solas encourage you to come to the Solus website, sign up as a donor for £4 a month, and we will send you a copy as a gift. And then I would say, by the way, please don't then hold on to the book, read it and think about who can I give it to.
00:25:24
Speaker
Great. Well, thank you so much for that. And I must add my own personal endorsement as well. It it genuinely was one of my favourite books when I read it 10 years ago, and it's still very relevant today. and And one thing that really struck me is actually when I first read it, I remember thinking i was reading it with a sort of educating myself, being entertained hat. But The thing that really struck me this time around is that actually, I think I could give this book easily to some of my atheist friends who would not read any other type of Christian literature.
00:25:53
Speaker
And that's because it has the humour and the argument. So I'd really encourage people to ah list ah read the book for themselves and and think about who they might give it to, because it it really does have that side of things, which many Christian books obviously would just simply not ever get into the hands of people, or at least they wouldn't read them, even if you did give them so.
00:26:13
Speaker
I just encourage everyone to to have a look at it because it's a great book.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:26:17
Speaker
But it is now time, I'm afraid, to finish the podcast. Thank you so much, er everyone, for listening. ah Do tune in again in a couple of weeks for another inspiring guest on the Pep Talk podcast from Solas.
00:26:28
Speaker
And thank you so much again, Andy, for being with us. It's been great to be on this side of the table having you guys interview me. So thanks for the conversation. Thank you so much. And it's goodbye from me and goodbye from Gavin.