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S5E02: Why I Chose Rutgers in Pursuing Immigration Law, with Xiomara Urán RLAW'15
17 Plays1 year ago
Immigration Attorney Xiomara Urán RLAW'15 joins Dean Johanna Bond to share her own story of immigrating to the US, her family's journey and what inspired her to become an immigration attorney, and how Rutgers Law has helped shape the work she does.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction of Guests
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to The Power of Attorney, Rutgers Law School's podcast. My name is Joanna Bond, and I'm the dean of Rutgers Law School. And I'm thrilled to have with me today Zia Mara Uran, who is a staff attorney at the Northwest Immigrant Rights Project and a proud Rutgers Law grad. So it's our pleasure to have you here today, Zio. Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and what brought you from Columbia to the US?
Zia's Background and Family Story
00:00:40
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. My story to Rutgers Law is one that started back in Columbia. My father was a judge for the State Council. Columbia's judicial system, at least at the time, had two superior or highest courts, and those courts were the State Council and the Supreme Court. My father worked for the State Council.
00:01:10
Speaker
And unfortunately, in 1985, there was an attack to the Palace of Justice. And as a result, a lot of individuals perished. My father was one of them, and we'll talk more about it. But overall, because of this attack to democracy altogether, but to my family itself, and being my mother from Uruguay and not being able to either return to Uruguay either, we were forced to consider how to migrate and where to migrate.
00:01:37
Speaker
So because of my mother's education, we were lucky enough to be able to live in different places where there are colleges and universities such as around North Carolina where my mom worked at Duke University.
Choosing Law Over Medicine
00:01:53
Speaker
And I had worked or studied my whole life to be a medical student, a doctor.
00:02:07
Speaker
But because of how the case of my father developed and how we found out what had really occurred to him, I felt compelled to study law. And that's what led me eventually to choose Rutgers out of several schools. And I chose Rutgers because it had a very broad idea of what going to law school meant, meaning that they took care of
00:02:36
Speaker
the student aside from just getting the grades. And that was very important to me. Great. Well, thank you so much. We'll talk a little bit more about Rutgers in a moment.
Legal Battle and Victory
00:02:46
Speaker
But first, let me just say how sorry I am about the loss of your father. And can you tell us a little bit about what the process has been like in terms of getting justice for your father? Yeah, so my father's case is emblematic in the sense that
00:03:05
Speaker
he suffered the same unfortunate lock, if you want to put it that way, that many other magisters of the Supreme Court and State Council suffered that day. However, because it was this big conspiracy of the government for 20 years, we didn't know anything. And once we found out that it was the government, the Colombian government, and now we're finding out that it was also the American government, that it was behind this operation, we
00:03:34
Speaker
sought justice so the prosecutor's office had never really gone after any of the guilty parties despite where the people that we thought it was involved were involved despite the evidence existent. We started seeking for justice outside of the country and the highest court of the Americas for that is the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. First we had to go through the commission
00:04:00
Speaker
And once the commission approves the case to be sent to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, they do so. The case of my father was heard while I was in law school. And that was difficult for me. And I cannot say how grateful I am for the professors that I had around me because they really supported me in the process. But luckily, in 2014, the Inter-American Court ruled in my favor.
00:04:28
Speaker
and determined that Colombia was liable for my father's church turn execution along with this appearance of 11 other individuals.
Choosing Rutgers Law School
00:04:37
Speaker
There are many other magisters who have never sought justice, whose families have never sought justice. And that is very unfortunate because then that also weakens the democracy of Colombia altogether. So that's why we did an international level. And last year in February,
00:04:58
Speaker
of last year, 2022. With the help of the Center for Justice and Accountability, we served an individual who was very high in the whole operation. So this coronal from the military, he had control for a lot of the things that occurred. And we believe that he may be fully responsible for my father's
00:05:28
Speaker
you know, death, and he's living in the United States. So that is something that changed the situation because then he obeyed himself to the American jurisdiction and jurisprudence, and this is something that I don't believe he was expecting, but I am proud to say that I learned my civil procedure at Rutgers, and well, here we are.
00:05:55
Speaker
That's excellent. Well, I'm so sorry about those circumstances, but also glad that there's been some level of accountability during this long pursuit of justice for your father. Switching gears a little bit now, Zio, can you tell us a little bit more about why you chose Rutgers specifically? Yeah, so as I was saying before,
00:06:20
Speaker
When I had chosen my previous type of graduate school, I was very interested, of course, and aside from the scholarships and the recognition of the school itself. But I failed to recognize how important it was to have a good support network and also to have a school that did have a diversity. I did not want to be another token kid, another person that represented their affirmative action situation.
00:06:50
Speaker
And when I went to speak with different professors at Rutgers, they took the time to sit down with me to consider what kind of support network will there be available within the school for me, particularly because I knew I was not going to be the typical student. So I had several options and I was proud to choose Rutgers as my number one choice for that reason for diversity and for
00:07:18
Speaker
how inclusive it is, and I'm talking about from LGBTQ, from disabilities, from other things that really enable individuals like myself to really prosper and succeed at law.
00:07:33
Speaker
Well, that's wonderful. We are so proud to have you among our graduates.
Service Dog Nakan's Role
00:07:38
Speaker
I know you have a service dog to help cope with PTSD from the lifetime of threats and intimidation that you've unfortunately experienced. But I also know that your dog was helpful to clients in the clinic while you were in law school. And that's a wonderful story. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
00:07:59
Speaker
Yeah, so Nakan came to my life. Nakan was the name of my dog. She ate Ming's spot in Basque. And she was a German Shepherd mixed with Australian Cattle Dog. And she was the wisest animal I've ever met. And so when I started going to law school, of course, she was part of my support network, my medical tools and devices. And when I started working at the clinic specifically,
00:08:27
Speaker
It was notorious a difference. She made herself just with her presence. So I think that while everybody can recognize the effect that medical service animal can have an individual who suffers the illness. I don't think many individuals realize the effect she can have on others and that's where I played a huge role at the clinic because.
00:08:50
Speaker
it really enabled individuals who were very distressed and in different situations that they were far from ideal to open up and share their story just because the mere presence of a dog made them, enabled them to feel better. There was this one specific case which really was my first substantial exposure to immigration, exposure to immigration wherein an individual who just refused to speak
00:09:17
Speaker
on multiple sessions, but then when I went with the two students who were taking care of that case and I was with Nakan, he opened up and he changed the course of what kind of relief is going to be granted by the court. So that was definitely not the only time where Nakan made a big difference, but the first time me, along with another law student, represented an individual
00:09:46
Speaker
who is seeking asylum. She also made a difference during that interview. And there's multiple ideas of how that kind of just became part of the legal clinic altogether. So that's a beautiful story. So let's take a breather for a sec and just have a few softball round questions.
Rutgers Academic Experience
00:10:07
Speaker
So tell me, what was your favorite and least favorite class in law school?
00:10:15
Speaker
So the least favorite one was the legal writing, just because the Blue Book, I think, is still on speed. I have yet to use it for immigration. So I still wonder how I spend so many hours over trying to memorize the system, but I understand it had to be done. So the Blue Book experience, I think, is one that definitely marked my first year and one that I didn't consider to, you know, lovely, but it had to be done again.
00:10:45
Speaker
And the class that I enjoyed the most, I really loved contracts with Carrier, property with Carrier. I had contracts with someone else, but I also really enjoyed the uniform commercial code with Herbs of Love. So yeah, areas that may seem very dry that made them very approachable. And one thing that I really appreciated from Herbs of Love's class was that he really tried to teach you how to proceed in the courtroom, meaning
00:11:15
Speaker
even your manners, your behavior, how to say good morning. And those things that may seem that are not as important, they're just, they can make a big difference when you're really in the courtroom. And I'm forever grateful for him taking that time aside from teaching the course.
00:11:36
Speaker
That's fantastic. And you also mentioned earlier, your experience with civil procedure and how helpful that was down the road. So yes, absolutely. Okay, and what about your favorite place to eat nearby school?
Favorite Spots in Camden
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. And, you know, unfortunately, Camden is one of those places where it's hard to eat, right? So I remember there was this food truck that it was right next to the law school and
00:12:05
Speaker
have those amazing sandwiches. The person there, I remember he had been in Colombia for multiple years. So he also had spiced out some of the things and it was just great. So I really enjoyed that. Yeah. That's fantastic. No, I just got my lunch there today. So he's still there. And what about places in Camden? Do you have a favorite place in the city?
00:12:33
Speaker
I really like the public library, the one that is, I think, is part of Rutgers itself that has these beautiful sculptures in the front. I just find it very peaceful. And the waterfront itself, it's also beautiful. No, that's lovely. What about your, well, let's say, what was the most important thing that you learned at Rutgers Law?
00:13:03
Speaker
I believe that the most important thing that I learned at Rutgers Law was the ability to be critical. You don't have to agree with everybody who's around you, but you have to treat them with respect and you have to listen.
Valuable Lessons Learned
00:13:21
Speaker
There will be things that you can learn from another person who thinks very different from you, and there's some good arguments that they may make.
00:13:30
Speaker
That was definitely something that I really enjoyed of my experience and that I would consider the most important thing, is to listen to the person that can think the most different from you and try to learn from that. For instance, when I was in contracts, I was paired with an individual who was Muslim, another person who was Jewish, and I was raised Catholic and Latina.
00:13:59
Speaker
And so we couldn't have any more different backgrounds. And that's really what made us excel. It was the idea that we could share such different experiences and enrich one another. That sounds extraordinary. I'm so glad that you mentioned that. What about your experience at Rutgers, do you think helped to prepare you for your current position as a staff attorney at Northwest Immigrant Rights Project?
Role as a Staff Attorney
00:14:26
Speaker
I mean, without a doubt, I will say that it was my time at the clinic. So I started at the clinic working first as an interpreter and translator, but then I was offered the opportunity to become a legal intern for the immigration clinic. And I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to have the clinics at the law school, because no matter how much you learn of a law, if you don't know how to use that law to write a brief and to apply that law for
00:14:56
Speaker
whatever it is that you want to do, then you're going to come to the real world and be very lost. So to me, it was very formative aside from being exposed to a more affirmative way of doing immigration because at this time I do more than offensive and that still applies many ways. It was also the way with that Joanne Gottesman
00:15:23
Speaker
taught me to talk to the government. So the government, in our case, this is a counterpart at all times. And she always approached them, not only with respect, but with kindness. And that taught me to always try that approach first, and try to negotiate and try to find a middle point. And yeah, so she often kills people with kindness. And I definitely
00:15:52
Speaker
often think of what would Joanne do in situations where I'm struggling because I do believe that she, aside from teaching me a lot from the practical experience of immigration, she also taught me how to have those difficult conversations at times, how to interview an individual, how to show empathy in those moments where without going to the other side,
00:16:19
Speaker
And particularly also how to talk to the court, which I practice all the time. I do that on a daily basis. That's fantastic. Joanne is wonderful. And she's a wonderful faculty colleague. And it doesn't surprise me that she is wonderful as well. And as you know, Rutgers has over, well, 20 clinics at this point.
00:16:42
Speaker
And so lots of opportunities for students to get exactly that kind of experience that you're talking about. And it's something that we're very proud of. Can you say a little bit more about what your current role as a staff attorney entails? Yeah, so this is as close as being in the trenches as one can be with immigration. My job
00:17:08
Speaker
Intel's going to the detention center, which is solely for immigration purposes. At this ICE facilities, I specifically work at the largest one of the Pacific Northwest, which is in Tacoma, Washington. And here, part of my role is for one, assess all the cases that come in for individuals who don't have counsel. We offer a legal evaluation where we explain what
00:17:35
Speaker
possible legal recourse they may have for their removal proceedings, the rotation, but also in some instances we can represent. So I also represent individuals on their cases, but I do a lot of the legal orientation of how to go about the system when the person does not have counsel, because unfortunately, given that immigration is not a type of law wherein the government will absorb the cost of that representation,
00:18:06
Speaker
Um, unless organizations like the one I work for, um, step in, then this individuals are the ones that are poorest are left to fend for themselves in a system that is already intimidating for anyone, even for, for individuals who are attorneys is intimidating, but to ask for an individual who doesn't speak the language, um, to represent themselves is, is, is just, uh, an impossible order. And, um,
00:18:31
Speaker
we hope to give some tools so that if that's the case, then they can be less lost within the process. That's wonderful. I'm so glad that you're out there doing that great and important work.
Naturalization Ceremony Experience
00:18:43
Speaker
Now, I love this story. I know that in 2023, you came all the way from Washington State to be at Rutgers Law's naturalization ceremony. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and why it was a full circle moment for you?
00:19:01
Speaker
I think to me, it was a wonderful moment and one of those moments that I will always cherish from Rutgers and I cannot be any more happy that I decided to go and that I was invited by Joanne to go. He was full circle because individuals who come into the United States, particularly those that have fled from persecution,
00:19:29
Speaker
come with a sense that they don't have any rights and that those rights can be taken away at any given point. They live in the shadows in so many ways and it's really for them many times better to live in that situation over have to endure the persecution in their home countries. The individual that really pushed me to go to this
00:19:58
Speaker
naturalization, Stephanie Ruisen, I've talked to her about using her name for this podcast. She had been my client for that first asylum case. So it represented the beginning of my career as an immigration attorney in many ways, even though I had done many petitions, it was the first interview where I had to proceed. And aside from that, when I was a Rutgers, I told her,
00:20:28
Speaker
This is not the end. This is just the beginning. And I want to see you become a citizen. So I kept nagging her. And when the time came, meaning that once a person has been in the country for a number of years and has been a resident for five years, then they may proceed with that realization process and they have to do the interview and whatnot. So I obviously reached out also to Joanne to see if she could help in the matter. And then Joanne,
00:20:57
Speaker
sweet angel that she is, she also agreed. And so it was the full circle of me coming back as an attorney to my law school, but also seeing that this person who at one point her life and her rights had been so violated to be able to claim this as her country for good.
00:21:21
Speaker
And that, for me, is very, very important because of also the kind of work I do, wherein I see individuals who have been residents for 20, 25 years, and then they make a mistake, and then they can be kicked out. And that, to me, seems very unfair, because normally the individuals that are kicked out tend to have lower means, and that's pretty much the reason that has prevented them from going through with the naturalization process itself. That is costly.
00:21:51
Speaker
The other thing that to me became evident of when I went to the ceremony is why I chose Rutgers. And because this was not the typical ceremony where we were all saying, oh, America, the great, and that's it. We were saying we love the United States, despite the mistakes that it has done with respect to foreign policy so many times and even in the mainland, so to speak.
00:22:20
Speaker
And that to me is very powerful as an individual who respects and love this country, but has also come to understand that the United States played a huge role in what happened to my father. And the more documentation that comes on classified from CIA, the more we can attest that there was a role of the Reagan administration in that situation. So to me, it's accepting that while the United States has issues,
00:22:47
Speaker
We all believe in democracy and that's why we're doing the job that we're doing and that's why we're doing the kind of ceremonies that we're doing. And so it was very powerful and seeing all my professors and seeing the first federal judge who is Hispanic was also just incredible because yeah, once you can see a role model, you can also start dreaming big. And that's what I feel at Rutgers that I was able to see other models that
00:23:15
Speaker
would enable me to feel that I could perform and achieve my dreams too.
00:23:21
Speaker
That is such a powerful and compelling story. I just love it. One of the things that I think having you on the podcast does is it also holds you out as a model to potential students who may be interested in going to law school.
Advice for Potential Law Students
00:23:39
Speaker
And so I wondered if you might just offer a few words of advice to students out there who might be considering law school.
00:23:48
Speaker
So law school is definitely difficult, meaning it's something that requires a lot of discipline. And the reason why you go to law school has to be very well defined in your mind before you attend, meaning if it's only a matter of prestige, if it's only a matter of money, I believe there are easier ways to go about that. But because it's a noble profession that requires consistency, discipline and
00:24:17
Speaker
It's hard. It's very hard. So my advice to individuals who may be considering attending law school is, for one, never underestimate themselves. Never consider that there's something too hard for them. I was actually told that by a counselor in high school when I first arrived in the United States, and I didn't speak English well. They said, honey, grad school is just too much for you.
00:24:45
Speaker
And here I am after attending medical school with a scholarship and after attending Rutgers also with a scholarship. So it was definitely not too hard. So my first advice is never think that something is too hard for you. But if you are choosing law, make sure that it is for the right reasons. If it's for money, go for another area, particularly choosing Rutgers law. I believe that it's very public law-oriented.
00:25:15
Speaker
And if you do believe that this is the right path, just keep working at it because this is not about being the brightest, it's being about consistency and about being able to grow and learn, but have a passion, particularly have a passion for whatever it is that you are gonna choose because otherwise it will be very repetitive. The emotions that I do, they're not as fun if it wasn't because I know that they can free someone, right?
00:25:44
Speaker
Whatever it is that you do, make sure that it really makes you want to wake up in the morning.
00:25:50
Speaker
Wow, those are wise, wise words. Thank you so much for that. And thank you again for coming onto the podcast because you are such an inspiration to all of us and particularly to our students who are currently in law school and prospective students who may be thinking about how they want to make a difference in the world. So thank you again for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me.
Conclusion and Rutgers Promotion
00:26:17
Speaker
The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School.
00:26:20
Speaker
With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.